Get Schooled

By luvs2teach

June 18, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

I think poverty levels are the umbrella. Under that umbrella you find:

Finally, most people in poverty are in poverty because of a lack of education. They don’t use the same vocabulary with their kids as a college-educated person might. They don’t watch the History channel or Discovery channel as much. They don’t have the time or money to take their kids to the zoo or the aquarium or a museum. Their kids are behind before they ever start.

It is poverty, but poverty is complex.

By erica

June 18, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

Also, we get to the chicken and the egg argument with intelligence levels (SET, where are you?). Is a person poor partially because they have a low IQ or do they have a low IQ because they are poor?

I would argue that it is primarily the former. One reason that I argue that is because of the exceptions to the rule. Think of all of the kids who break out of poverty and become very successful as adults - how do they do this? Most of these kids/adults have unusually high IQs for their community. They get out of poverty because they have the smarts and motivation to do it.

A kid with and IQ of 80 cannot learn as much as a kid with an IQ of 130 or better. If most of the kids at the school have a below average IQ, the school is going to be very limited on what it can teach.

Some of IQ is nurture, but the majority is plain old genetics… just like it is with all species. In all species of animals, there are smart individuals and duller ones… the duller individuals tend to have dull offspring the smarter ones have smart offspring.

NCLB of course contributes dramatically to the fact that kids in impoverished schools don’t learn anything significant about science (or art, or social studies or foreign language, etc.). At these schools, the administration is forced to focus almost exclusively on reading and math to the exclusion of all else. This fact plus the reading desert created by Reading First garbage ensures that many kids in poor schools can’t think their way out of a box.

This even happens to the slower kids in well to do schools. In our middle school, smart kids get to take all sorts of electives and get lots of time in science and social studies. Duller kids spend that time in remedial math and reading - even having to give up time in PE.

By Ernest

June 18, 2007 11:45 AM | Link to this

There is definitely a STRONG correlation to FRL population to standardized test scores. It was hard to ignore with the chart in the AJC and taking a detailed look at the scores by grade level. Of course, there are exceptions at individual schools. We applaud them then look to see if their formula can be replicated. By the same token, you can point to some schools that are in somewhat affluent areas that don’t have the scores one would expect.

IMO, the other key indicators are levels of parental involvement along with discipline reports. Unfortunately, there are some that might say there is a correlation between these and the FRL population.

Luv2Teach brought up a lot of good points in her post that I agree with. I think it has been documented there is a lack of educational resources in some homes which impacts learning development.

By catlady

June 18, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

NCLB of course contributes dramatically to the fact that kids in impoverished schools don’t learn anything significant about science (or art, or social studies or foreign language, etc.). At these schools, the administration is forced to focus almost exclusively on reading and math to the exclusion of all else. This fact plus the reading desert created by Reading First garbage ensures that many kids in poor schools can’t think their way out of a box.

Beautifully put, Erica. Add to that scripted lessons that ask simplistic questions, ie students read “The boy wore a red jacket.” Teacher reads from script, “What color jacket did the boy wear?” Click (dog clicker) Students answer (in unison) “Red”. Not “Why do you think the boy was wearing a jacket?” Or “Why do you think he picked a red one?” I realized that our students at our school would probably do better on the CRCT if I could click at them randomly during the tests! LOL

Luvs and Ernest are also on track with their comments.

You can’t just use race as a proxy for SES.

By SET

June 18, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

OK, I’ve arrived.

Will you educators wake up and smell the coffee? IQ drives the “test scores”. IQ drives the behavior (along with hormones). IQ drives the mortality rates.

IQ is highly related to ethnicity in the sense that the different groups have different distribution of IQ. That’s why people want Jewish Lawyers, Drs and Accountants sight unseen. The odds are simply better than, say, Black Lawyers, Drs and Accountants.

And before you get into an uproar about that (remember, I’m a black lawyer) - IQ isn’t everything. Asians are one of the groups that have a greater distribution of high IQs and nobody in their right mind wants an Asian Lawyer sight unseen around here. A Dr. Maybe.

Functionality in any given sphere combines IQ as well as other traits such as risk-taking and creativity. Irish Politicans may tend to be alcoholic and not brain surgeons either - but they can swing a deal, stay in power and work a crowd better than most of the other groups. Irish in general have IQ’s averaging 100 - a standard deviation below Asians and Jews. (read *The Bell Curve” and related studies) When it comes to political firepower in the USA they won the 20th century hands down. They take a back seat to no-one. When they want a scientist they can hire them if they need them.

And if you were in real trouble with the LA criminal justice system you might have wanted Johnnie Cochran - especially if you did kill her. IQ is not everything but it really helps with the Nobel Prizes in Science.

People are not equal and have different weaknesses and advantages. In a division of labor economy like that of the USA there is a comfort spot for everyone. Our schools need to stop flogging dead horses and cursing at them… wondering why the black kids aren’t doing so well in calculus for example (“just can’t understand why Otis can’t keep up with Irving and the Indian kid”)- and start making the very best out whatever the students of all groups bring to the table.

Stop pretending that we are all the same, and expected to take the same classes at the same schools and “get along” with each other. People who reach puberty at 8 to 10 do not need to get along with people who reach puberty at 15. They have different interests and attitudes.

There are exceptions - outliers within each group. But they are exceptions. Smart people will always take care of themselves and maybe their dummy siblings also. Our public schools are supposed to get the best results for the ordinary people. We stopped trying to do that a long time ago.

By decaturparent

June 18, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

Amen SET!… and I would hire you as my lawyer in a minute (and I say that being a lawyer myself)!

By luvs2teach

June 18, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

SET - front line educators are sitting in Starbucks!

It’s the educrats and politicos that need to wake up, shake off the slumber of political correctness and come join us.

By erica

June 18, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

Luvs2teach - I would argue that there are some kids that really can’t learn much beyond the dog clicker/Reading First routine. The problem is that we have a whole slew of kids with huge potential that are completely turned off to learning by this approach and they are stuck in class with the dog clicker crowd..

The result is that everyone knows the jacket is red; however, some kids really want to know why he is wearing the jacket in the first place, but get discouraged every time they ask why. Until…… finally…they turn off their brains and quit asking. This usually happens by third grade.

Big business is constantly complaining that they cannot find highly skilled workers who can think critically and write effectively - and for some reason they think that the answer to that is NCLB????!!!???

It’s politically incorrect, but the only way to provide Bill Gates and his peers with the workforce that they need is to stop dog clicking at kids on the right of the bell curve. We need to identify each kid’s talents and educate them in a way that maximizes them. If a kid has an IQ of 150, he absolutely should be educated accordingly and with peers of similar intelligence. If a kid has an IQ of 75 - well the dog clicker method is probably what she needs.

NCLB is only destroying the future of our country - except for those in the tutoring and testing business. When will Gates wake up and realize that we are not educating the kids with the potential to work for him - we are dumbing them down so that everyone can be mediocre. A kid who barely passes the GHSGT is not going to be an engineer for Microsoft.

Businesses need to demand early identification of talent (IQ or otherwise) and intensive instruction of those determined to have talent. That instruction needs to take place in an environment that is not constantly disrupted by the left side of the bell curve. Otherwise our country will be third world by 2100.

At our middle school, a kid can only take two honors courses per semester even if they qualify for four. Can someone explain to me the sense in that?????? Do they really think that by sitting in a so called “mainstream” class that they will somehow grow to love the kids that are dull and disruptive.

My son spends an inordinate amount of time “tutoring” the dull kids in his class because he finishes his work quickly and the teacher can’t keep up with him. I can assure you that these kids have not endeared themselves to him in any way. I would say that this experience has made his opinion of FRL and SPED kids far more negative than it would have been otherwise.

Does the politically correct crowd really believe that when they are adults, the folks with high IQs who are doctors and lawyers and engineers are going to go down to hang out with the borderline retarded crowd just because they tutored them in school? Do they really think that they will have anything in common with them?

If our country does not wake up and face reality - we are in big trouble.

By Ernest

June 18, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

Well said, Erica! Many of us have already suggested and believe a partial remedy to this is to have ability grouping in school once again. In our efforts to ensure “no child gets left behind”, we are inadvertently “holding some children back”. In this flattened world we live in now, we cannot afford to have a “less than competitive” workforce.

We collectively need to stay involved and lobby our US legislators accordingly for changes to NCLB when it comes up for reauthorization.

By SET

June 18, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

The left side of the Bell Curve were doing just fine in 1965. They had their own schools and vocational programs, discipline at school, jobs to go into that they could perform that paid a living wage. I had a relative that started off as a Milkman, for example. Others worked in the Post Office. Some of these went on to University Graduate Professional degrees and some didn’t. Back then a handyman could afford a housewife and kids. The United Auto Workers were a powerful union.

In this Brave New World we throw the left side of the Bell Curve into schools that are designed to enrage them and teach them nothing useful other than violence - violence directed at smarter people I might add. We teach the left side of the curve that other people owe them something. We make it clear to them that they are not responsible for what happens to them. We don’t teach them how prison terms are calculated or infectous diseases spread and treated. (Take a look and the US Army VD movies available on the Internet - graphic and effective for even slow learners) We have an Rx for disaster. We give the left side of the Curve no future in this Nation.

When the left side of the Bell Curve leave High School - most don’t graduate - No one wants to hire them. Those who have smarter family members and who will take direction are steered into vocational training. The rest end up dead, in prison (w/Hep C and worse) or (for the females) in a spiral of welfare and bad health.

Show me a CA prison (and subtracting the 25% illegal aliens) I will show you the failures of the public school system. And we’re cremating the rest. Welfare doesn’t pay for burials in Potter’s Field anymore, I think.

The National Policy to destroy the quality of life of the left side of the Bell Curve began in the 1960’s and started with the public schools.

We need to throw out essentially all of the 1960’s social reforms and make it clear that the public schools are not to produce so many complete failures. That probably means complete flexibility in public school education by 8th grade up to find programs with their own campuses leading to an honest trade for everyone testing at an IQ 80-100 and the rest if they want in and can fit in. The left side does not need to be on campus with the right side of the curve. The two groups have different needs that conflict. Officers and Enlisted military (who are sorted by IQ, by the way) do not train together either for the same reasons.

And since there is little discipline at home, these low IQ operations (Juvenile Hall included) may need a whipping post. Do I have a problem with this? No. Think Maylasia.

NCLB wasn’t intended to fix anything. It was a data collection scheme intended to demonstrate what the Bell Curve researchers published a long time ago. Now what do we do?

By thomas

June 18, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this

Reading programs like Direct Instruction and Reading Mastery may be used with large numbers of students. But today most schools use these programs, if at all, only with students having the most severe difficulties in reading.

I have had significant training and study in reading programs for struggling readers. If you were to look at pictures/videos of the first DI lessons, you would see B/W pictures of little black children chirping on command. I guess the implication of the video is “oooo, look…..see I can teach these little kids to read. If I can teach these kids to read, I can teach anybody to read.” The reason I brign up this historical sidenote is because it is helpful to know the psychology behind the “scripted reading” program. Even a moron can teach little children how do read, as long as you followed the instructions.

DI and Reading Mastery should NOT be used with large groups of students. Personally I have nothing wrong with using these programs with SPED and ESOL students for a short period of time.

And as for the scripted, regimented, predictable format, some kids actually NEED fingersnaps, clicks, and verbal commands from the teacher such as *”my turn, your turn, our turn,” *etc. If you don’t hold up you hand like a stop sign while you speak, some fool might start talking. Let’s be honest for once here- we have some real characters in some of these schools. Even a few non SPED/ESOL students might need DI because they are so tuned out of school and such a behavior problem.

By luvs2teach

June 18, 2007 3:47 PM | Link to this

Erica - I’m not sure why you addressed your post to me specifically?

I agree with what you said - I was trying to be cute (guess I failed) and express that teachers in the classroom KNOW that we’re losing the low ones AND the high ones by trying to teach to the middle - all in the name of being PC and not wanting anyone to “feel bad” because they’re not in the “smart” class.

I don’t want my child missing out on enriched instruction so she can tutor the struggling learners - and I don’t want to be the teacher doing that, either!

By Lee

June 18, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

Fifty-five years ago, Brown vs Board ruled that the reason Blacks were lagging behind their White counterparts was due to the “Separate but Equal” doctrine. If we just mix everybody together, they will all learn at the same rate.

In 2007, we still have the same achievement gaps between the races and the social engineers still haven’t figured it out.

Oh, and College Prep, Honors, Gifted, and A/P classes are a meek attempt to group by ability.

By mum

June 18, 2007 4:18 PM | Link to this

Folks, how do we explain the successes for kids from Africa? Is there somethign missing in the IQ when you add the American hyphenation? I know many Nigerians, South Africans, Ghanians, etc., who are absulutely brilliant. Poverty in and of itself doesn’t make you stupid or lazy.

By Terry Baradine

June 18, 2007 4:19 PM | Link to this

School systems spin these statistics one way or another and so do parents and teachers. The bottom line is, if any student is given highly qualified teachers, an in-tune administrator and tools to learn, anyone can achieve regardless of race or socioeconomic background. Gwinnett County for example - a huge disparity.

Let’s talk about the school to jailhouse pipeline. If the schools fail to deliver education to each kid, they end up getting railroaded or set up to fail and if they make a first offense, end up in juvenile court. Many school systems use this tactic to get rid of the ones they do not want to invest in — Forsyth County is known for this. And so is Gwinnett.

Our numbers look good here because of the classic fudging that goes on too. I don’t know how they do it, but they do. High stakes test scores are much ado about nothing.

Terry Baradine Forsyth County Parent/Teacher Coalition 404 966 8986

By luvs2teach

June 18, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this

mum - much of the work on poverty has been done on generational poverty here in the US, and it’s not race-specific. You find the same traits in whites from Appalachia, blacks or whites from poor rural areas, and urban blacks. It’s probably something that has been worsened by Johnson’s well-meaning, but misguided Great society.

The key idea is generational - it’s not situational poverty caused by a loss of a job or a death in the family - this is a lifestyle that is hard to break out of. Often those that do try to break out of it are accused of “acting uppity” or “acting white” and face a lot of pressure from friends and families.

There is an area of study within the field that looks at the difference between poverty and oral culture, and middle class and print culture.

I would love to know the answer to the chicken and egg IQ/poverty issue. Are slower people poor? Or are poorer people slow? Thhere are so many factors: lower IQ parents are probably more likely to have children young and less likely to seek pre-natal care. They are less likely to be educated and less likely to impart the importance of education to their children. They are less likely to have money or knowledge for proper nutrition. They are more likely to have more children, spaced closer together, limiting the attention the parents can provide.

There was a study done sometime ago (don’t know the researcher - sorry) that looked at parent’s education and vocabulary exposure. I don’t remember the exact numbers, but it was something like this: By the time a child was 5 (I think) a child with college educated parents was exposed to roughly 50,000 words. A child with high-school educated parents was exposed to about 5,000. A child with parents who were high school drop outs? Maybe 500.

By Terry Baradine

June 18, 2007 5:31 PM | Link to this

I don’t care about all those studies, and numbers, the other side of that coin is if an administrator would really care in the school, the child would succeed no matter the background

We have way to many Educrats who don’t know what the hell they are doing. And then they have teh nerve to bully the teacher when it isn’t done the ‘school way’. Utter nonsense.

Teachers all over this state ought to contact MACE. So you won’t be so fearful of the school educrats.

By high school teacher

June 18, 2007 5:34 PM | Link to this

I would very much like to see data nationwide… if Georgia is 49th or 50th in education, how does our free-reduced lunch percentage compare with other states? Do the states at the top of education have a lower percentage?

By Terry Baradine

June 18, 2007 5:37 PM | Link to this

Sorry luv2teach - you can blame the educrats on not taking responsibility for educating the poor kids. Anyone from administrator on up to superintendent is directly to blame. Their supposed to be the experts. And in particular Georgia, we simply have educrats who are in it for the Money and no other reason, not because they care about the best interest of the kids.

Let me tell you , the most disparity is special education. Most school districts can’t even follow IEPs, violate IDEA and refuse to support the parent/teacher for success of that special ed student. Why, because the superintendents and admnistrators DON’T care. And they will continue to collect your tax dollars without accountability until people form coalitions in their own hometown or district and do something about it.

By SET

June 18, 2007 5:40 PM | Link to this

Mum: The Sub-Sahara Africans are amoung the lowest average IQs on the planet and their non-civilizations show this. Two story mud huts, anyone?

You speak of knowing or having met African (immigrants?) who are bright. Of Course. I have African Immigrant In-Laws. When we discuss IQ in this forum we are speaking of large groups and group distribution not individuals.

One would expect the brightest of the Africans to be the ones to migrate here - with all that entails - and make it in a new world far from where they were born. My In-Laws are notable for their discipline and hard working - and they seem to have no problem with multiple languages and Graduate (Med School etc) School either. They have utter contempt for American urban black culture (so they fit in fine with my family).

I have noted with African Immigrant families I’ve met in the professions (such as the Nigerians) there are multi generations of physicians, lawyers, etc.. and with UK and American grad school degrees. These are not average or ordinary people for their group. They are assortive-mating brights who for generations have been at the top of their ethnic group and intend to remain so.

African Immigrants will push American Blacks out of selective schools. Especially if they come in under Affirmative Action. While they (Africans) as a group have lower IQ than American Blacks, the immigrants do not, and can easily run academic circles around typical American Blacks.

All of this is interesting but my problem is the US Federal Government destroying the jobs, opportunity and standards of living for the US Citizens by wrecking the public school system - while simultaneously importing millions of foreign nationals into this country - whom our elite think they can better enslave/control. A process started by Ted Kennedy in the 1960’s and further promoted by both Bush Presidents in later years.

But I could be wrong. Maybe we’re not going to attack Iraq too.

Brave New World.

By SET

June 18, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

I meant to say “Maybe we’re not going to attack Iran too.

Sorry!

By Tony

June 18, 2007 6:05 PM | Link to this

Much of the disparity in children’s education begins early in life - before the child even enters school. Then we are expected to make up all the deficiencies - behavioral, social and learning. Children reflect the values instilled in them from home. Instead of further blaming schools for not being able to meet the needs of children in these desperate situations, why don’t we do something to help the families?

The writer who pointed on the intellectual capacity of students from Africa hit the nail on the head. One reason the students in other countries are able to excel is because of the commitment the family makes to getting an education. Learning is difficult and if we want all children to have a world class education then we have to make a strong commitment.

By Ernest

June 18, 2007 6:08 PM | Link to this

Terry, you said, *you can blame the educrats on not taking responsibility for educating the poor kids. Anyone from administrator on up to superintendent is directly to blame. * I’m confused. Are you suggesting school officials should provide suitable instruction ‘in spite’ of laws/regulations passed that restrict what can be taught to who? As SET mentioned earlier, when VoTech classes were offered, it provided a path for those who were not the best academic students. With the ‘one size fits all’ system we have now, there are bound to be failures.

By alice

June 18, 2007 6:33 PM | Link to this

Terry,

While I believe there are many poor administrators and teachers around, a child who moves 5 times in one year, isn’t going to succeed. One of the least discussed, because it is the hardest to rectify, causes of poor student achievement is student mobiliity.

My friend mentors children at a DeKalb County School. She will follow them, if they leave that school, to their next school — as long as they stay in DeKalb. Her last 4 mentorees moved no less than 4 times in one school year — not because of the quality of the schools, but because of economics, poor parental choices, whatever. But education was clearly not the parent’s priority.

SET has it right —IQ plays a big role in student success.

By Terry Baradine

June 18, 2007 7:01 PM | Link to this

I do not care if the parent does not put schooling these kids first. The education system must do their job anyway. I am from the ‘no more excuses’ front.. All educators must take a little more responsibility, because if we don’t we will continue to go down hill in Georgia. Make the educrates give you more pay, free you of harassment and general nonsense you have to put up with in your work environment. Terry Baradine

By erica

June 18, 2007 7:05 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach - sorry, that reference was from my original post. I changed my direction and forgot to delete your name from the beginning - sorry, my bad.

By catlady

June 19, 2007 8:58 AM | Link to this

Thomas, I agree with you about the short time and the specific learning groups. At my school,however, the whole 630 kids are subjected to those methods (DI, RF) and we are losing their love for reading daily. I know that if I had had to be in a class like that (which our gifted are) I would not be a PhD today—I would have killed someone or lost my mind. But, year after year of this mindless drivel for everyone is insane! The children at my school (3rd-5th) have never known the joys of real reading instruction, ever!! What’s more, it does not prepare them for the CRCT, or, most importantly, the real world. But boy, they feel good about themselves! They increased their word per minute count (DIBELS) by 50 words this year! But they cannot answer a single question about what they read! Yet, we declare victory and go home, until the CRCT results come out—then we shake our heads and say we don’t know what happened to them, they must not have tried their best, etc.

By Terry Baradine

June 19, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this

A response to this poster—

“While I believe there are many poor administrators and teachers around, a child who moves 5 times in one year, isn’t going to succeed. One of the least discussed, because it is the hardest to rectify, causes of poor student achievement is student mobiliity.”

Educrats must realize that sometimes school is the only safe place a child can be in his life — because of turmoil at home. If the educrats refuse or dispose of these kids without giving them support — the Georgia Education System will continue to be 48. I am tired of these type of excuses. Whatever happened to administrators that inspire their teachers and inspire the kids?? I can’t find one. They have all gone the Georgia Way. Terry Baradine Georgia Parent/Teacher Advocate 404 966 8986

By SET

June 19, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

Military families can be required to move far more often than others. You don’t lose IQ points because of moving, or being bombed (WWII refugees?) or being poor or having your parents die, etc. etc.

Those who are making excuses for stupid people being stupid don’t get it. They are born stupid - and/or their dullness if affected by lack of pre-natal and post natal nutrition (guess who doesn’t breast feed as often?). By the time they are in first grade the damage is largely done.

What the public schools can do is sort the incoming kids (test them) and re-sort them periodically (I’d want national testing such as in the UK). Students who show promise in anything useful should be encouraged to develop their strong points as soon as practical - whether it’s culinary, science, languages, music, or construction arts or whatever.

I’d also want discipline to be strongest in the lower orders. They will need it most to advance and to keep what they have. The higher orders have more advanced social skills and will learn to manipulate the people and world around them on their own. The dummies need to know how to get in line and stay in line.

By teacher

June 19, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

Terry, stop posting your phone number (10:24 a.m.) to advertise for business. Where’s the moderator? How’d that one get through? Are we allowed to advertise here?

By Terry Baradine

June 19, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

I don’t have a business, nor do I do it for profit — in fact my work is completely voluntary to turn around corrupt school systems.

By Terry Baradine

June 19, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

I do not run a business, I run a parent/teacher coalition ALL on a voluntary basis to turn around corrupt school systems — a huge secret in Georgia — that’s why we are 48.

You want me to post what I know or is a reporter going to call me. The time is now to get it in the press full force.

By suanne

June 19, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

Terry, post away. I’m curious - what do you expect of these low-IQ, parentless crack babies who waft around the education system? Do you expect that the school system will turn them into something resembling children from better homes and genetic material? Or simply help them realize their potential? I agree that it is possible for schools to have more of an impact than we are currently making on these children, but to do so will absolutely take some decidedly un-PC action a la SET’s ideas. Do you support this type of REALISTIC approach to the situation? By the way, PLENTY of inspiring educators have been drawn to the field but have to leave to save their sanity. They will not fight the PC madness for any amount of money. I do have hope that our system can turn around, but not before we sacrifice millions more crack babies to the cause.

By Terry Baradine

June 19, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this

Suanne If you get rid of the corruption in every school district — and ineptness at the high levels of management, you will see things improve.

I hope people realize that parents are trying to improve things for both classroom educators and students. But until people form district parent/teacher coalitions- its never going to happen.

We just got rid of Isolation Rooms in Our District — you can thank over 200 families getting involved in that issue who were no afraid to speak up.

Whatever your county, root out the corruption, incompetence and waste. There is so much fiscal waste in school districts — all you have to do is look around

The money can go to the teachers and the classroom for more help for them so they can help the crack kids.

No mores excuses from school superintendents. The people of Georgia are fed up. We should not be in the 40’s — that is disgraceful. MAssachusetts has more crack babies then we do — and what - they are 20. No more excuses

By forsyth parent

June 19, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

Comments by some of the ‘educators’ are disgraceful. Teach every one of these kids to their best ability, not to be geniuses, but to reach their potential. Being PC is not the point — do your jobs.

By thomas

June 19, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this

I am a FIRM believer in the Five Tenets of Effective Reading Instruction- Phonemic Awareness, Phonics, Fluency, Vocabulary, and Comprehension. The point is that all of this should be taught IN KINDERGARTEN AND FIRST GRADE!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately, many teachers who have started teaching in the last 10-15 years don’t know anything about appropriate techniques for teaching reading. All they know is new age, gimmicky, so-called progress tricks. There are parts of Whole Language reading that are perfectly acceptable and good to use. BUT EVERY SINGLE CHILD MUST BE TAUGHT PHONEMIC AWARENESS, PHONICS, HOW TO READ FLUENTLY, VOCABULARY, AND COMPREHENSION. Teaching these things also creates good spellers, too.

Catlady, school systems like Atlanta, Clayton,possibly Dekalb, and other urban/rural systems use DI, SRA and other regimented systems because they are faced with a LARGE number of poor readers and want a quick and simple solution. They want a solution that all of their teachers can use, regardless of experience and/or ability level. Using fluency as the primary measure of reading success allows system to gauge some element of student reading performance in a quick and objective manner. More importantly fluent reading LOOKS good to outsiders.

That is the most important thing to administrators of high poverty schools. Everything must look good. This is why high poverty/”struggling” schools gravitate towards authoritian “reform” models like America’s Choice, Learning Focused Schools, Direct Instruction, Success for All, and program after program after program. They all have components that require putting on a good show (kids taking lots of tests, teachers displaying “data”, teachers posting “standards” and “student work”, etc.).

No school should be using DI after second grade, if at all. Poor reading instruction in grades K and 1 result in poor readers.

By SET

June 19, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

As a trial lawyer I tell a lot of people that the emperor has no clothes. I do it in jury trials where my side is subject to cross examination. I am not PC but I am a realist - whatever that is. At the end of the day you have to be able to produce the votes. This cuts both ways - I give a lot of bad news to my side also. Do I give a fig about their fantasy baloons being popped? Not anymore. We all have to get a reasonable amount of product done in a reasonable amount of time for a price the market can pay.

I couldn’t be a teacher, I walked away from that - familiy members have been teachers since well before 1930. I wish the teachers well. I could have taught in the climate my parent’s generation grew up in. I’d have done a good job. My grandfather made careers for a lot of people (He taught at a HBC) who he helped place in grad programs.

I couldn’t manage in this environment and I have a lot of respect for teachers who get up in the morning and go to work and do whatever it is they can to try and improve their students.

I’d rather do 3 strikes cases in CA.

By luvs2teach

June 19, 2007 5:12 PM | Link to this

Terry - I’m not here to blame. I research and analyze. I try to be proactive and solve problems.

I read studies and I attend seminars because it helps me know what I’m up against - forewarned is fore-armed in my opinion. To me, the research I do is like ammunition for my weapon of education. Not learning what I’m up against is like bringing eggs instead of bullets to a battle - it’s messy and the mission is not accomplished.

America is not homogeneous, and we not to stop acting like it is. The problems in education are not simple, and we need to stop acting like they are. I’m glad you’re here, and that you’re in this fight, but you need do some more work on the front line.

Military kids, notwithstanding, kids do lose when they are moved too much - they miss out on critical instruction. And it’s true that, for some kids, school may be the only stable thing in their life - however, it’s also been shown that kids who move too much don’t develop relationships - of any kind - because it’s too painful when the inevitable move happens, and their lives are disrupted yet again.

All my Gen Psych folks out there remember Maslow’s Heirarchy of Needs - if basic needs aren’t met, then learning is highly unlikely to occur.

SET - I just posed the question of which came first for the sake of discussion - the whole nature vs nuture argument. Truth be told, it looks like there’s an element of each. Prenatal nutrition has been shown to create an increase in IQ, but if baseline is 70, and the increase is 10 points to 80 - well, you’re right, they’re still on the left side of the curve. You often read of kids coming from rough neighborhoods who had someone in their life expose them to more - feeding that desire to get out and learn - even if the odds are against them. I don’t know; it does fascinate me though - anyone remember the book, Flowers for Algernon (or the movie, Charly)?

Forsythparent - I wish you had been more specific - whose comments were disgraceful? We’re trying to teach them to the best of their ability - unfortunately no one wants to come to a realistic concensus on what that is.

And as far as me doing my job - I do, both as a teacher AND a parent. I’m assuming you do, too, or you wouldn’t be here.

But there are parents that don’t - as a parent, I’m sure you know it, too - there were kids I didn’t want my kids to hang with because I didn’t think their parents were parenting them well - troublemakers.

And apparently the American public agress - if y’all go over to Bridget’s new post about the NCLB reauthorization study, the number one problem cited by parents, teachers, and administrators? Parental Involvement

By high school teacher

June 19, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

MAssachusetts has more crack babies then we do — and what - they are 20. No more excuses.

How do you know this? That’s what I was talking about earlier…how do GA’s demographics measure up to the top 10 states in education? I need sources, please, not just statements.

By suanne

June 19, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

forsyth parent: PC is unfortunately the whole point of education these days. I agree, we should teach to a child’s ability, which is why I am all for ability grouping. But what do you suggest we do when the child’s ability limits him to a 4th grade reading level? It is not very “PC” to admit it and train him to do a job with which he might earn an honest living. No, instead he is dragged through years of academic torture and I think this is cruel and of no benefit to him or society. Is this what you mean by educators doing their jobs? Terry, I agree about the corruption. That would be a good start. I understand that there is gobs of technology money going to waste in closets that could be better applied elsewhere for one thing. It appears to me that there is plenty of money available for education if only it were used properly.

By terry

June 19, 2007 6:30 PM | Link to this

May I suggest if your student is not reading past 4th grade level, and i don’t know what age he is at, but then there should have been early intervention much sooner by the school district. What are the holistic reasons why the child is learning at the level? Trouble at home, no support at home and/or no early intervention or early remediation sooner. How about assessment for a learning disability - is that a possibility? Was it done? If so, was an IEP implemented or is the child having some other difficulty with learning - integration problems or sensory problems, perhaps a hint of dyslexia. How many school districts really identify dyslexia and do something about it. These kids can learn = they just learn differently. But you must tap into that. And I am tired of school systems saying that Ritalin is the answer— No it is not always the answer

By luvs2teach

June 19, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

From School Matters

Massachusetts 2005 Number of Students 975,574
2005 Number of Schools 1,878
2005 Number of Districts 403
2004 Spending/Student ($) 11,015

Adults with at Least a High School Diploma (%) 89.6

Adults with at Least a Bachelor’s Degree (%) 39.3

Free/reduced lunch: 28% (greatschools.net)

Having grown up and gone to school in MA, this interested me. MA has a strong union, and few if any county systems. The majority of school systems are small city/town systems - extreme local control.

Georgia

2005 Number of Students 1,553,437
2005 Number of Schools 2,353
2005 Number of Districts 180
2004 Spending/Student ($) 7,742

Adults with at Least a High School Diploma (%) 82.1

Adults with at Least a Bachelor’s Degree (%) 26.1

Free/reduced lunch: 48% (greatschools.net)

20% more free or reduced lunch, yet nearly $4,000 less spent per child…hmmm…

Property values and taxes are much higher in “Taxachusetts” - so are teacher salaries.

From the NEAP site:

2005 8th grade science ranking (I picked 8th grade science because that it what I teach) has MA in 6th and GA in 35th. North Dakota is 1st.

I even found a site that listed MA as 2nd and GA as 41st - Morgan Quitno - that site used a methodology of 21 separate factors, positive and negative, to rank the states.

What I did not find, however, is the rate of crack babies in either GA or MA :-)

By luvs2teach

June 19, 2007 6:46 PM | Link to this

From the Morgan Quitno site:

While I’m not thrilled with 41, at least it measured a variety of factors that can be looked at consistently from state to state, unlike SAT scores.

POSITIVE (+) AND NEGATIVE (-) FACTORS CONSIDERED:

Public Elementary and Secondary School Revenue per $1,000 Personal Income +

Percent of Public Elementary and Secondary School Current Expenditures used for Instruction +

Percent of Population Graduated from High School +

Averaged Freshman Graduation Rate for Public High Schools +

Percent of Public School Fourth Graders Proficient or Better in Reading +

Percent of Public School Eighth Graders Proficient or Better in Reading +

Percent of Public School Fourth Graders Proficient or Better in Writing +

Percent of Public School Eighth Graders Proficient or Better in Writing +

Percent of Public School Fourth Graders Proficient or Better in Mathematics +

Percent of Public School Eighth Graders Proficient or Better in Mathematics +

Average Teacher Salary as a Percent of Average Annual Pay of All Workers ) +

Average Daily Attendance as a Percent of Fall Enrollment in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools +

Percent of School-Age Population in Public Schools +

High School Drop Out Rate - Special Education Pupil-Teacher Ratio -

Percent of Public Elementary and Secondary School Staff Who are School District Administrators -

Average Class Size in Public Elementary Schools -

Average Class Size in Public Secondary Schools -

Median Pupil-Teacher Ratio in Public Primary Schools -

Median Pupil-Teacher Ratio in Public Middle Schools -

Median Pupil-Teacher Ratio in Public High Schools -

By terry

June 19, 2007 6:52 PM | Link to this

You will also want to check in TIME magazine, www.edweek.org and

www.reason.com

Georgia Standards are really really low, set by the state, not by the local people. The local people can and should do a better job than the State. I will post some more websites.

By terry

June 19, 2007 7:07 PM | Link to this

Check this article: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1625192,00.html

By SET

June 19, 2007 7:49 PM | Link to this

By luvs2teach: The book “Flowers for Algernon” was read by me before the movie “Charly” was made. The idea of a dull person suddenly becoming bright and looking at the world with new eyes was a fun concept.

There’s no such therapy available except that those with acute Sleep Apnea effectively lose 15+ points of IQ and usually have no awareness of what’s happening to them. Get them on a CPAP or treated with corrective surgery and the IQ levels return overnight. Similar issues can occur with some medical disorders when they are alleviated.

Born Dumb people are just dumb and the best thing that can happen is that they have a bright sibling or family member who can direct them and with support, keep them functioning at their best level. It helps when the dummy isn’t on Crack or Meth. Substance Abusers don’t take direction well at all - especially the males.

Maybe I don’t believe it’s really that bad. I still think that a good education which includes IQ testing and teaching the students insight about their own strenghts and vulnerabilities, controlling their reproductive urges, - and directing the students into fields they may not have thought of - where they can make a living and support a family - can be done. Of course our schools forbid IQ testing of blacks while accommodating testing for the other ethnics. There was a court case that ordered this.. a remnant of our wonderful “civil rights” era.

Let’s face it, CA Dept of Mental Health is paying High School Degreed or GED certificated Psych Techs with only one year of Jr College (not academically challenging courses!) as much as $70k a year. Now you have to have a driver’s license, pass a background check, and otherwise be presentable. I think an IQ of 90 can do it if they have it together otherwise. Some of the ones I have seen in the courts may not even be that high. I see job after job paying good money with less than a AA from Jr College required.

If our public schools were once again able to transmit socialization to the left side of the bell curve - that means controlling their clothes (no sagging or cleavage), their mouths (sir & ma’am), their hair (no attention getting, cartoon style do’s) and get the sanitation and english language thing under control, these kids could find a place for themselves somewhere in this economy.

If that means we crush their (Left Siders) blackness, mexicanness, sexiness or anything else unique and personal (gang tattoos?) - I’m all for it. They can recover those things after they buy their 2nd house and the kids arrive.

Better to be a prison guard than an inmate.

By thomas

June 19, 2007 8:12 PM | Link to this

The issue of the “achievement gap” is a such a simple one. The middle class works with their children and the lower and working classes don’t. You work with your kids, they achieve better academically. You let your kids rot, make excuses for their dismal situation, you blame society, the school system, the school board, the school principal, teachers, other students, janitors, bus drivers, cafeteria workers, librarians, and every other conceivable person on earth other than yourself, and your kids end up stupid losers. Any further questions?

On another note, the Cobb school board is going to vote on June 28 on whether or not to end the High Priority School Incentive program. This is a program Cobb created in 2002 to pay teachers who work 3,6, 9, 15, and 21 at a low performing school. The payouts range from $2,500 on the third year to $5,000 on the 21st year of service. Only teachers are eligible for the incentive. Despite the fact that some schools have teachers who have worked at their respective schools 12 years or more, they may have only received one incentive bonus, if that, in all of that time. It’s not something you get every year.

Now the county office has recommended that the school board eliminate the bonus because it is “not effective in reducing teacher turnover in High Priority Schools.” Many teachers who work in Cobb’s HPS are upset over the proposal. I think some people in the school system just want that money. We all know that people care nothing about schools in “higher poverty areas.” I’m sure the people at the county office are nothing about environment at those schools other than their AYP status.

Reality is however, that the little money Cobb may or may not be paying out to encourage teachers to stay at their “high priority schools” is not really going to be the thing that keeps those teachers at those schools. It is probably something else. Most teachers have working at a “good” school as their career goal and objective. Either that or some career “advancement” into administration or a teaching specialty (EIP augmented, Gifted education, Literacy coach, ESOL, etc.).

I conclude this because I once worked in the Clayton County school system. This is what happened there:

Once the system went from majority white to majority black (around 1995-2000),

1) Teachers who had 0-20 years experience fled the system to Henry and Fayette counties and beyond.

2) Those teachers with around 23, 24 years or more experience tried to stick it out for retirement at 30 years (or whenever they were due to retire).

3) All the new rookie teachers straight out of college and carpetbaggers from out of state came in to work a few years in Clayton to get some work experience and then, they too fled.

In the past 10 years, about 3000 teachers have come through that system. Clayton currently has about 3500 teachers altogether. I know Clayton has grow tremendously in the past 7 or 8 years, but there were years when they would have to hire 500 or 600 teachers.

Many teachers I worked with had going to a “good school” as their career goal. Most people want to work in schools with a lot of parental support and well behaved, cared for children. People will even take pay cuts to work there. Look at Fayette and Henry. They paid less than Clayton, but people waited in line to work there. Heck in Fayette, people would die on the job and bequeath their old teaching jobs to relatives and children. Seriously. When momma retired from XYZ Elementary, her teacher daughter would get her job.

Since the subject was about the “achievement” gap, I thought the issue of teacher retention was interesting.

By terry

June 19, 2007 8:47 PM | Link to this

Thomas “You work with your kids, they achieve better academically. You let your kids rot, make excuses for their dismal situation, you blame society, the school system, the school board, the school principal, teachers, other students, janitors, bus drivers, cafeteria workers, librarians, and every other conceivable person on earth other than yourself, and your kids end up stupid losers. Any further questions?” Thomas - this statement foolish. My child - who had an incident happen to him - which was brushed under the carpet by administration - was on a downward spiral. He walked a tightrope for a long long time. He almost failed a couple of classes after the incident. What did it take ME and a COUPLE of the Teachers who really gave a damn - It was NO thanks to the administration who called me ’ just another angry parent’ which couldn’t be further from the truth.

Also, these school systems are not responsive at all to parents that really do care - and when a parent raises an issue - the school system will find a way to retaliate on your child. Fortunately, that didn’t happen to me but I know countless others where it has. REtaliation on Parents and on Teachers is the name of the Game in Georgia.

By lynn d

June 20, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

Terry

It sounds like you have a difficult administrative situation at your child’s school. Failing a few classes is very different that a child who is consistently not able to do grade level work.

Look at the Iowa Test of Basic Skills — a nationally normed test — given in DeKalb in the FAll. Grade level is considered the 50th percentile. DeKalb’s average of 8th graders —43% — that means that 1/2 of the county’s 8th graders scored below that number.

What I think sets counties/school districts apart, is the parents. But, more than just working with their children, I think it has to do with parental expectations. In DeKalb, for example, I think we have alot of parents who live in the county who live here because they can afford too. On the other hand, many families, of all economic levels, move to Gwinnett for the schools. These parents hold both the school and the school system accountable for outcomes.

I think, I hope, that parents in DeKalb, at the lowest performing schools, are finally becoming aware that things could be better. At high poverty, high minority schools, the way things have been traditionally done in education just won’t work. We need radical outside of the box solutions — something traditional educators won’t offer — unless the parents demand it.

By terry

June 20, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

Yes we do - have a had some serious administration issues. You know what we are doing. Writing about it, blogging it, going to board of education meetings and telling people to examine everything at their school. Hold the school/administrator accountable and even the superintendent. Our superintendent is retiring. WE want to make sure the next one does his job too and meet with him for a nice lunch as a group.

There really is much corruption in schools in Georgia — way to fix it— whistleblow and do it loudly. Be a group of parents and teachers and bring issues to the board meetings in the public participation section. File grievances when necessary on administrators and do it in public hearings if you have to.

The retaliation here on our teachers — is appalling. They speak up for a kid- they get fired. Our group is trying to get teachers in Georgia to join MACE to protect them. I notice several teachers on here might be able to get help from MACE —here is the website www.theteachersadvocate.com - please look into it. Terry

By thomas

June 20, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

Ok Terry- Here’s the deal:

When I refer to people who work with their children, I am referring to middle class parents who make the investment in their child’s education and growth. Think of Forsyth Co, East Cobb, North Fulton, East Gwinnett, etc.

Those people who don’t invest in their child future get likewise results- see City of Atlanta, Clayton, Dekalb, etc.

I have a very good idea of your dilemma. This “incident” you refer to is probably a conflict you had with your child’s teacher or the school. I understand now. I know from past experience that there are many conflicts between parent and school.

By terry

June 20, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this

Let me tell you something- one thing for sure I have never had a conflict with a teacher. I have the utmost respect for them, but if i do get wind of an educator doing something they aren’t supposed to be doing, we bring it up in the public participation section of the board meetings. And use the Media, media, media.

My issue is resolved, done, fini- over. But more work is to be done to end the nasty work environment that school administrators have created for the teachers here in Georgia. MOst of parents don’t want to see that. And no, I am no longer an angry parent, but looking to make lemonade out of a lemon.

By thomas

June 20, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this

I was right. You are or were an “angry” parent. By the way— what is “an educator doing something they aren’t supposed to do”? Secondly, why must a parent “go to the board” when they have a problem. They go to the board when they don’t give a hoot about school, want things their way, and have an axe to grind. Cooperation between home and school is essential for good education to take place. It is difficult for children to learn when parents denigrate schools and teachers.

I cannot say this enough— One of the reasons that the children of middle and upper middle class families are successful in school is because the parents are supportive of school. These parents do not pick battles over trivial issues or come to the school screaming and raving over trivialities. In addition, they do everything the school asks of them and their child without complaint or question. They want to be with the program and on board with the school.

They don’t make excuses and blame the whole world for anything that is not perfect. This is so very, very important to understand. So whether you are white or black, rich or poor, live in the city or country, if you are parent with a bad attitude, YOU ARE DOING A DISSERVICE TO YOUR CHILDREN. CHILDREN NEED SUPPORTIVE PARENTS, NOT HOSTILE PARENTS. CHILDREN NEED SUPPORTIVE PARENTS, NOT HOSTILE PARENTS.CHILDREN NEED SUPPORTIVE PARENTS, NOT HOSTILE PARENTS.CHILDREN NEED SUPPORTIVE PARENTS, NOT HOSTILE PARENTS.CHILDREN NEED SUPPORTIVE PARENTS, NOT HOSTILE PARENTS.

GOT THE MESSAGE EVERYBODY??? IT STARTS AT KINDERGARTEN!!!! IT STARTS AT KINDERGARTEN!!!! IT STARTS AT KINDERGARTEN!!!! You can’t fight the school day in and day out for YEAARRRRRRSSSS, then in the fifth, sixth, seventh grade exclaim “I don’t know what to do about __.” If these parents had worked with their children and teachers on a DAILY basis starting in kindergarten, more than likely the child wouldn’t be an arrogant, disrespectful, ignorant punk who can’t read, write and do basic math (and more than likely is in remedial education or special ed.) I have seen it so many times. So many times.