Get Schooled

By catlady

June 14, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

Dang! My just-graduated math/astrophysics major daughter should be able to name her price! Of course, she would have the expectation of good behavior, hard workers, etc. Hahahaha! Any high school administrator out there want to sweeten the pot?

By Jeff

June 14, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

Let’s put it this way:

In 5 years, assuming I decide to go back to teaching at that point, I could walk up to the principal, Cuss up out up one side and down the other, and he wouldn’t fire me simply because he would know that he couldn’t find any other warm body, let alone anyone BETTER than me.

Would he make my life a living hades? Probably. But all I’d have to do is THREATEN to quit, and he’d back down.

Hey…. I LIKE this shortage!

By luvs2teach

June 14, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

I think what we are going to see mirrors what is already occurring at the collegiate levels: more foreign-born math & science teachers.

The one big problem I see with this trend is that teachers from foreign countries are going to expect our US students to act like the students in their countries. Those behavior expectations are where the bulk of the problems will arise, IMO.

By HS Teacher Too

June 14, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

Bridget,

How do they measure the graduates who enter the physics teaching field? As students who graduate and enter to teach physics directly from college? There are many teachers who do not enter teaching directly from college, so although the number is still alarmingly low, it might not be THAT bad; I would much prefer a teacher who has maybe done some research or held a job in his/her math/science field BEFORE coming to teach — it deepens their knowledge and enrichens what they can share with and show their students.

Was anyone else bothered by the Regents’ idea to increase the numbers of A’s, B’s and C’s in introductory college math and science classes, so more students stick with them?! Um … thank you, but if you can’t do well in an intro class, I don’t WANT you teaching — or going to med school, or being a nurse, or anything else that might require that you did well on your own in a rigorous class!

By mmm

June 14, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this

The pot won’t sweeten until we chuck a salary scale the reward only for time served, not content area and individual skill level.

Karla Drenner was pushing a bill this session that would make it easier for folks with “advanced degrees” to be hired for high school teaching areas that were hard to fill without going back to college for another couple of years. I’m not sure if that bill made it all the way through. The “certification monopoly” police were busy making a case for maintaining the education school’s exclusive right to only allow folks who have done their time into the classrooms.

By catlady

June 14, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this

HS2—see comments at the end of yesterday’s blog for more on this.

By catlady

June 14, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

HS2—see comments at the end of day before yesterday’s blog for more on this.

By Lisa B.

June 14, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this

One problem I’ve seen is that these positions are sometimes filled by substitutes because schools can’t find teachers. I know of one high school where chemistry was taught by substitutes the entire year. College is not a requirement to be a substitute. I have a friend whose daughter who failed the CRCT this year, but had a sub for math the entire time. There’s no way to school can retain all the kids who failed math this year, when they weren’t taught appropriately.

The schools are going to fill the slots with warm bodies if they can’t find qualified teachers. They have no choice.

By Dana from GaDOE

June 14, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Okay, Bridget said yesterday that it would be good if I posted more since I’m the GaDOE flak. So here I am (despite Bridget’s snarky comment in yesterday’s post…)

This is actually an issue being talked a lot about by the “Alliance of Education Agency Heads,” which consists of the seven leaders of the agencies that oversee education in Georgia (yes, there are seven).

I’d really like to hear your ideas for solving this problem and perhaps some “best practices” that are being used around the state. I will happily share these ideas with the Agency heads as they talk about this.

But be nice…I can’t show them mean comments. That means you, jim d.

By Jeff

June 14, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

Dana:

First and foremost, you HAVE to get rid of requiring “approved programs”. I have an NT certificate at the moment simply because I did not complete student teaching. To go full, I am told that I must “complete an approved program”, take an EXC class, and pass a computer competency class. Yet I DID everything except Student Teaching, HAD an EXC class as part of that, and my primary major was Computer Science. Indeed, I am a programmer right now, so I think that the “computer competency test” is just a little absurd, don’t you?

Make a person pass both the PRAXIS II - NOT GACE- for their subject and an FBI Background Check (the kind they would do for a Secret security clearance). Put them in the classroom for a year - as highly qualified - on a “temp” certificate. If they survive one calendar year - with NO TAPP or other supervision requirements attached - they go to a full T4 (or whatever level for their particular degree level), NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

BTW: Another thing: If you want to still use TAPP - which I don’t agree with, but I’m being open to ideas here - open its availability and use up. For example, because I went through everything but Student Teaching, the only thing that I could do to go through an “approved program” would be to get a Master’s degree or go back for another Bachelor’s degree. Yet I’ve already spent a year teaching. What sense does THAT make?

By Lisa B.

June 14, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

If the discipline problems in schools were addressed, perhaps the out-of-field experts would actually stay in the classroom. As others have posted, I’ve seen highly intelligent, talented professionals enter the classroom and leave quickly because of student behavior. Until we get kids under control, many gifted educators will chose jobs in the private sector that pay more and have less hassle. A couple of years ago, a neighboring county jumped at the chance to hire a recently degreed, retired Marine drill sergent. His 5th grade class drove him away by Christmas. The man couldn’t employ any of his Marine tactics, and the kids just did whatever they pleased. In my school system, we were lucky enough to hire a REAL biologist to teach high school science. The kids ignored him, just kept talking and walking around the room as if he wasn’t there, and he quit after a few weeks.

I don’t know why discipline has been thrown out the window. If we’re not going to make the kids pay consequences for their actions, we just need to send them home so the teachers can teach and the other children can learn.

By catlady

June 14, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

Welcome, Dana!

By Jeff

June 14, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

Dana,

I also WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with Lisa.

Lighten the “stang”ulations to get them in, then enforce student discipline to keep them in.

Honestly the only reason I lasted a year is because I have the same attitude of a certain professional wrestler: “I WILL NOT DIE”.

By robo

June 14, 2007 1:05 PM | Link to this

In a society that blames the schools for everything and fosters no parental responsibility, how can this be a surprise? Parents today use schools as babysitters, so they won’t be bothered with “little Jimmy’s” petty learning stuff. They are not involved in their demon seed’s education much less discipline, because that would mean less “me” time for them, less time in front of the TV watching the latest reality crap, plus they would be tasked with actually being a parent, which they lost interest in 10 months after conception.

By Lisa B.

June 14, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this

I know that some states provide higher pay incentives to attract teachers to those hard-to-fill positions. I am ambivalent about that. Certainly a high school chemistry teacher is harder to find than a first grade teacher. However, does the chemistry teacher deserve more money? Is his job more difficult than a special ed teacher’s job, for example? Not everyone can teach high school chemistry. However, not everyone can teach first grade either. Middle school teachers have tough jobs and the positions are often difficult to fill. Should they get paid more? Will the higher pay incentives make them stay in the classroom?

By HS Teacher Too

June 14, 2007 1:33 PM | Link to this

Thanks, catlady, but I am not sure I am seeing it. Are you talking about the YouTube blog?

By Tony

June 14, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this

The biggest factor for physics/chemistry teacher shortages is that their degree gets them a much better salary in the private sector. If high schools were able to determine salaries based on other factors than the standard T&E then we may be able to attract more from those fields.

Some of the disciplinary factors you guys have cited are in the direct control of the teacher. Classroom behavior should be handled by the teacher otherwise the teacher has no respect from the students. School administration should set the tone for appropriate behavior for all students and back those expectations up with actions.

To Jeff - If you were to ever cuss me up one side and down the other you would be fired on the spot no matter what you taught or how good you were.

By Erin

June 14, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

Pardon me for maybe sounding snarky, but Bridget, really … after reading all these comments just today and after having followed this blog for some time (though not necessarily posting often), I have to say I think the train wreck is already here!

It’s ridiculous to want and need teachers this badly and yet the state/administrations/whatever create all these completely stupid hoops teachers have to jump through to make it to the classroom and then — of course! — never back them up or do what the teachers in the actual classrooms really NEED to maintain order in the classrooms and - imagine this! - actually teach something!

OK … I kinda went off there. But beyond those like Jeff here and several other teachers who have mentioned all the stuff they’ve gone through in the teaching profession, it’s a wonder ANYONE wants to be a teacher!

By HS Teacher Too

June 14, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

Ah, catlady, I misread your second post to me. I found the comments.

Sorry to waste space, everyone!

By Jeff

June 14, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

Tony:

Two comments:

1) So you would fire a teacher for doing the same thing you would do NOTHING to a student for? Shows me where YOUR allegiances lie…

2) I have MUCH more discipline than to ACTUALLY cuss my principal as described. But if we ever get into a face to face argument and you see me standing at attention with my face candy apple red and becoming ULTRA terse, putting a “sir” on the end of every statement that comes out of my mouth… give me a place I can go DESTROY something before I go back to my classroom. Once I get it out, I’ll be fine. (Note that that level of anger - before Randolph - had only happened ONCE in my career, and that was in a situation involving a school I had been a student at. Even COUNTING Randolph, it has only happened 5 or less times, and each of those times at Randolph was when a student assaulted me.)

By Rik

June 14, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

I am a chemist and own my own laboratory. I would gladly give an hour a day to go to the local school and teach a class. But, as far as I know, there is no school that is so structured.

By Jenred

June 14, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I agree with your frustrations that in a time of need, the powers-that-be are making the hoop-jumping even worse. I moved from GA to NH and to have NH honor my certificate, with reciprocity mind you, they wanted me to take a new PRAXIS — after I had a master’s and had been teaching 3 years already. I wrote back and told them that I thought it was ridiculous that they had a math teacher shortage, that I had a degree in engineering, a master’s in education, had taught — with great reviews — for three years already, including AP classes, and they wanted me to take the PRAXIS! They sent me my certificate that week. :)

By Lisa B.

June 14, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

As Tony said, most discipline issues must be handled by the teachers. One problem new teachers have,especially when they enter the classroom from out of field with little training, is that they don’t know how to handle those little discipline problems. That skill is learned. However, I keep hearing about major discipline problems that should be handled by administrators but are not. I’ve never been assaulted by a student, but unfortunately, I know dozens of teachers who have. Typically, nothing happens to the student. Administrators seem to think the teacher must be at fault if a student attacks him or her. A friend of mine was so severely injured by a 5th grade student that she missed the last two weeks of school and still cannot drive. I just don’t see scientists and mathmeticians (or anyone else)taking huge pay-cuts to teach. If the work environment was less stressful, the job may be rewarding enough for some people to warrant the cut in pay.

By thomas

June 14, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

This discussion over math and science teachers is about 15 years old. Everybody knows that people with a DEGREE in mathematics or the natural sciences (Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Astronomy, Geology, etc.) certainly don’t have to work in the school system as a high school teacher making $37,000 (or less) a year. Even with all of the outsourcing to China and India, just about everybody with a degree can find a decent job.

When I read the AJC article about the “shortage”, I said to myself “how come they don’t printed the number of people who get degrees in early childhood education, middle grades language arts, and English and History. Quiz question of the day: What is the one of most popular majors in college? EDUCATION!!! The colleges of education at most four year colleges are HUGE!!!! They pop out teacher ed graduates like tastybread. What the problem is is that all the girls want to take “early childhood education”, “middle grades language arts”, “music education”, “PE and Health Education.” No one wants to get into math and the sciences because it requires thought, studying, critical thinking, and logical. Let’s face it— nobody touches the fields requiring any real study or effort.

By Janine

June 14, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this

Train wreck…thy name is education in GA… Good teachers are fleeing the profession in record numbers. From teachers like Jeff,who have just had enough [and “enough” could mean many things ].., to professionals trying to move into teaching from other careers,.. to student teachers who get a taste from interning. What was once a rewarding profession is now a chaotic, undisciplined mess. The 2 years before I left Dekalb the auditorium where the meetings for teachers considering retirement was standing room only….full of teachers who had never planned to leave so early but who were ..and still are…being treated with such disrespect by administrators/so-called consultants/AND students that the rewards are way overshadowed by the obstacles placed in the paths of those who actually know what they are doing. I do not know of many public school teachers in GA who would not work triple jobs to put their children and/or grandchildren in private school.

By Janine

June 14, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

Thomas..you are right, too, when you say ” What the problem is is that all the girls want to take “early childhood education”, “middle grades language arts”, “music education”, “PE and Health Education.” No one wants to get into math and the sciences because it requires thought, studying, critical thinking, and logical. Let’s face it— nobody touches the fields requiring any real study or effort.

Even “back in the day”,I remember that education majors were often lookded down upon. Those students serious about the sciences and math…had no interest in entering the teaching profession.

However, 15 years ago,there were many who had sciences/math careers who …like Rik @1:52 ..would give time teaching ..or even consider a career change begin teaching later in life. Now, however, with the apathy of students and disrespect afforded teachers there are no longer many who would do that.

By Jenred

June 14, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

Janine,

Amen. You are dead-on!!

By Jeff

June 14, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this

Thomas:

At KSU when I graduated, CSIS was the single largest DEPARTMENT, while the College of Ed was the single largest SCHOOL.

Guess what?

CSIS graduated something like 100 - 200 students the semester I graduated. ECE graduated at LEAST TWICE that. Math Ed? There were 15 of us going in to student teaching the semester I did it. KSU only does it one time a year. I got pulled, and I don’t know how many didn’t make it, but I know that I only remember 7 or 8 of them graduating that semester. (Again, compared to the 300+ ECE majors that graduated that semester.)

By Go Jackets!

June 14, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this

After getting an engineering degree at GT and working as an engineer for a couple of years, I strongly considered becoming a math teacher. I got an offer, but the lack of pay and the requirements for more training unfortunately pushed me away. I really think that a higher pay grade would solve the problem.

By luvs2teach

June 14, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

Interesting comments so far…

First, on the topic of teacher training, I think our current tradtional training sets students up for failure, and our alternative trainging has so many barriers it turns many off.

Trational teacher training sets people up for failure because student teaching, as is, is woefully inadequate for preparing a teacher to handle his/her own classroom. You practice for part of a year in a classroom where the procedures aren’t yours and yet are already in place. Then you are given the keys to a classroom of your own and are expected to perform at the same level as a twenty year veteran!

Schools are getting better about mentor programs and support for new teachers, but still…

I would like to see 5-6 year programs, possibly with a Master’s (or some classwork towards one) that include more subject specific coursework, and a full year, paid teaching internship instead of student teaching. During the internship, the student would have an on-site mentor as well as a weekly seminar with the SOE prof to discuss issues. I think some classes in pedagogy are important, but some of the classes I had were redundant, and I spent time creating things that I have NEVER USED!

On the Alternate Ed front, I think it has improved in the 7 years since I started my program. I went through the GA Responds program at West Georgia, which was pretty good. I am mentoring a TAPP teacher this year and it’s not bad program either. But both programs could learn from the “less is sometimes more” philosophy - since you are a teacher in a classroom, you are often getting staff development which is often redundant to your classes.

Not only is there some redundancy, there is some excessive paperwork, and I have found that in both those programs, as well as the gifted endorsement I am currently working on, changes in PSC rules cause confusion in the delivery models - there are WAY too many tweaks from year to year.

We need to streamline the process for getting professionals n the classroom, but we also need to bulk up the support, and provide a realistic expectation for those that are interested. Perhaps give some kind of credit to those who have worked with students in a mentoring, tutoring or coaching capacity. Ask that they spend some time in schools before getting hired. I know a lot of folks fail becuase they think that how they were taught will work nowadays - just ain’t so.

We also need to start thinking outside the educrat box that wants to protect the status quo - more part-time position for retired folks - chemists, engineers, etc.

By DC Teacher

June 14, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

Boy oh boy…where do I begin? The lack of Chemistry and Physics teachers in the schools now can partly be traced back to the lack of sufficient high-school-level Ed majors available in the colleges. It’s not the ONLY problem, but I feel it’s a big contributor. A little background info:

I currently teach chemistry in a local Atlanta-area high school. I graduated from Florida State in 2002, so next year will be my sixth year teaching. My degree is a BS in Secondary Science Teaching (Bio/Chem track) from the College of Arts & Sciences, NOT the College of Ed. In my opinion, having this distinction in where my degree came from has made all the difference in the world.

Most College of Ed majors are only required to take the bare minimum of courses in the subject area they will be teaching. For Science Ed majors, this amounts to a few biology classes, a few chemistry classes, and if you want, maybe a physics class or two. Other wise they can take earth science or something else science-y. The majority of their major is focused on Ed classes, which, as we all know, are not really the best indicators of how things really are in the classroom. Thus, they come out of college with a content knowledge level barely above those of their students and the false assumption that all students want to learn and are well-behaved so that all of their Harry Wong-style tricks will work flawlessly.

Wondering what sort of requirements exist here in the A&S Ed programs in Georgia, I recently checked the requirements from UGA for a A&S Science Ed major. I was floored to see how many upper-level courses were required just to be able to graduate with a BS to teach high-school Chem. No wonder no one is going into Chemistry! I’m sorry, but even a scratch-the-surface kind of knowledge of P-Chem and/or Analytical Chem are NOT required to teach high-school level Chem, people! Even AP Chem doesn’t go into that much depth! I could teach an entire semester of Chem classes with the first month of what I learned in General Chem 101. And, as you might suspect, the requirements are just as insane for Physics.

At FSU, the Secondary Science Teaching Bio/Chem track required me to take enough content courses in Bio to be only 3 or 4 courses away from a Bio major. I was about halfway to a Chem major as well. And on top of all that, Ed courses from Intro to Ed and Ed Psych all the way to “Teaching Diverse Populations,” “Measurement & Evaluation in the Classroom,” Ed Tech, and ESOL Instruction were required, among others. By the time I finished with my student teaching, I had taken 104 credit hours required by my major alone, not to mention all the liberal studies requirements I had to satisfy. I think I graduated with 140 credit hours.

My point is, this degree prepared me for teaching in the best way I can imagine. It was rigorous but not impossible, it required a commitment to the major for all 4 years (unlike most College of Ed science majors, who only want you for the last two), and it made me well aware of what would be required of me as a high-school level science teacher from day one. And it prepared me to more-than-adequately teach two different subjects within science.

In my opinion, this is how a Science Ed major should be run. Since it does not appear that the state of GA has a program like FSU’s, maybe they should make one. Maybe more prospective college students would embrace the notion of getting a major in science teaching if they knew that A) they would be adequately prepared to teach when they were finished, and B) they would not have to work any harder than necessary to do so. I mean let’s be realistic here—if we want to attract people to our profession, we should make the degree process effective and easy to those who want in it and are smart enough to do it.

Just as a side note, I graduated with 7 other people in my major that year (it was relatively new at the time). I am the only one, to my knowledge, who is still teaching. What can I say? It’s not for everybody. :)

By AnObservation

June 14, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this

As someone mentioned earlier, math and science teachers are gone because of the low pay for some of the biggest stresses. One of those stresses is administration. A new principal come to the school and because he/she may see that a specific teacher has more disciplinary control over students, the teacher become a target. In my middle and high school years, this has been the main situation.

In middle school there was an incident where a student body slammed a male science teacher because the teacher tried to prevent him from fighting another student. The options given to the teacher about the continuance his job by the principal was BS although the teacher was slammed on the ground and he did not harm the student. So the teacher left. Other math and science teachers left because the principle was a pain. After the new principle, there was at least 4 math and science teachers that left in my three years at the school, and 3 or 4 that left after I moved to high school.

In high school I had a very good science teacher but the new principle did not like him/her because the teacher had more disciplinary control over the students then the principal. This science teacher had been at the school for some time and earned the respect of most students. The new principal walked in and thought he/she would have that same respect just because of the title “principal,” but was rudely awaken. By the time I graduated some of my science and math teachers told my class that they were leaving at the end of the school year and only stayed that long because they wanted to be sure we left high school prepared for the next stages in our life.

When I look at all teachers go through to become and stay certified educators, it is strange to me how administrators and government seem to do everything in their power to get rid of teachers but complain about how US students are behind other schools, counties, cities, states, and countries.

I had a first year APS high school Social Studies/US History teacher. At least 75% of the students she taught passed the GHSGT Social Studies part with a nice percentage to pass plus (530+) because of how well she taught. I made a 576. Yet her “temp” certificate (Jeff) was up and lost her certification to teach high school social studies.

I have had good math and science teachers during my time in Atlanta Public Schools but I have seen the same teachers targeted and pushed away from wanting to teach, due to power hungry administrators, and politicians/government officials who make things difficult just to look important, setting standards in the schools.

AnObservation

By Lisa B.

June 14, 2007 4:37 PM | Link to this

I think that in some cases the requirement for extra classes is waived. Most people can’t afford to quit their jobs and go to school full time for 6+ months to change careers to education. The argument of course, is that people can’t teach correctly without the education courses. I disagree with that. The big problem is still financial. I took a pay cut when I left the business world ten years ago to teach. Zell Miller made it easier for me by granting several years of 6% raises. Prior to that, I just couldn’t afford to teach. Even when one considers that I am now paid for 190 days rather than 261, it’s still a pay cut. And I didn’t leave an engineer’s salary.

It’s going to be really hard to draw people to those high level math and science classes without offering more money.

By Susan

June 14, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this

Dana,

When we start focusing 95% of our attention on academics and 5% of our attention on sports I think we might see a huge improvement in our test scores and graduation rates.

I was very involved when my child was in school and I can’t tell you how disheartening it was to attend academic award ceremonies and see only a handful of teachers and barely any administrators attend to honor their student success stories, yet whenever there was a sports banquet many teachers and ALL of the administrators would show up.

What’s even more absurd is many of the athletes who participated in school sports, especially if they were on a winning ball team, were “insulated” by the coaches and administrators when it came to grades and discipline so these kids were given carte blanc to act and do as they saw fit, without a care in the world about the academic side of school. For many of these athletes, their reading, writing and math skills are a testament to this statement - they barely meet the minimum requirements to pass a class. The “non-sports” students sit back and watch at how differently the athletes are treated and many of the athletes enjoy bragging about how they are treated differently.

WE, the adults are helping to foster the environment that academics should take a very dim second to sports in our EDUCATIONAL arena… Think about this for just a second. WE, not the kids, are responsible for cultivating this environment.

I firmly believe that it should be a priviledge to play on a sports team. I feel a student must have excellent grades, a wonderful discipline record and have a good moral character - they are decent and caring individuals. Maybe we should limit sports to Junior/Senior year to make sure the kids have worked hard to earn their place?? If they want to play sports, then they will need to play for their local rec centers until they reach Junior year and meet ALL of the requirements and make it a disciplinary infraction if a coach or teacher tries to scout a student BEFORE they become eligible to play.

Why not create ACADEMIC teams that compete against one another and make it an HONOR to win, just like in football and baseball. Televise the competitions, market it as the COOL in thing for kids to do..

On another note: Everyone wants to bash the kids, but let’s take a step back and look at it from a kid’s perspective. They do see what’s going on, they see it if their efforts are ignored or if they are being rewarded, they know when sports takes a huge precedence over academics..Listen to them, they are much smarter than we are giving them credit for. They are trying to tell us, they just might not know how.

Thanks,

Susan

By A Chem Teacher

June 14, 2007 4:50 PM | Link to this

DC Teacher, I went through a college program similar to the one you described and I agree that it prepared me more for teaching chemistry that a regular science ed degree would have.

If you want more science teachers, pay them well (Yes, we work harder than other teachers. We have to set up, supervise, and deconstruct labs with potentially harmful chemicals .)and spend the money for decent lab equipment and maintainence.

By SET

June 14, 2007 4:54 PM | Link to this

OK People, lets stop taking what the schools say seriously and look at what they do.

No science graduate with a reasonable mind and no hidden agenda would consider a career where they are paid a fraction of the market price of their degree to work in a war zone.

No “school” would seriously believe that they can hire real science degreed staff from real schools at the pay scales offered in numbers large enough to offer lab science classes to the entire school.

In CA we are paying Prison Guards 100k a year w/some overtime or holiday pay included. We value HS degreed Prison Guards more than 4 year degreed HS Biology teachers. - Or we devalue the students in High Schools. That’s my belief.

We don’t value the public school students which is why we run the schools the way we do and why we refuse to sort the brights early and put real resources into teaching them. We devalue the left side of the Bell Curve even more because we make no attempt to get the very best we can out of them. Under NCLB most schools need to run them (dull students) off before they bring down the stats.

Things would work better if we abandoned the one-size-fits-all schools and offered regional high schools with the more expensive programs which would be elite and admit by application only, while the run of the mill students would move between general and specialized programs on an as-desired, as-needed or as-qualified basis. You can’t waste expensive educators of students who frankly aren’t in the market for that education. The alternative is to have nothing for anyone.

We already do this with Jr Colleges. One campus I know has an Electron Microscope AA program with starting salaries over $65k upon graduation. But that campus does not have a Respiratory Therapist program. Other campuses have a Nursing program but not a Police Academy, and so on. Students commute to the campus that has the program they want - but they are eligible to go to any school in CA. There must be 10 or more Jr College campuses in commuting distance in the SF Bay Area.

I am not saying to cut funding from the duller students - a fully equipped and staffed auto mechanics school is more money than a chemistry lab. I complain that there is no policy to match resources with students who want them (and presumably won’t curse the teachers and act out in class).

Sectioning off the students and programs even at the high school level might allow an expensive market-rate science teacher to do some good where it counts. We don’t do that now.

By Mick

June 14, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this

An Undergraduate can major in Biology Eductaion, and learn to present High School concepts with panache, or major in Biology and prepare her for graduate work in her field. Assuming the Bio Major had a desire to teach, who would you rather your kids learned biology from? If the schools would defy the teachers unions and hire bio and physics majors at he same starting salary other teachers make, this wouldn’t be an issue.

If they would defy the teacher’s Unions and pay undergraduate high school physics and bio graduate what they pay starting teachers who majored in useless education courses

By bonzo

June 14, 2007 5:18 PM | Link to this

Many states have circumvented the rules that discourage mid-career or near-retirment age scientists and math people from teaching. My physics and chemistry teachers in suburban DC were both retired federal scientists who not only knew their stuff, they knew how to communicate it and didnt need bogus education coursework to succeed. They were also conduits for internships that helped us gain admission to more competitive schools. I don’t get it. Yes, you have to pay them more, but we need more math and science majors to stay competitive and that’s going to cost us, any way you look at it. Teaching first and seco-graders isn’t easy…it’s a gift…but frankly, you shouldn’t be measured on the same pay scale.

By luvs2teach

June 14, 2007 5:20 PM | Link to this

Mick - we don’t have teachers’ unions in GA, but someone with a non-ed degree who has to get a provisional or temporary certificate to teach will most likely be paid LESS than a fully certified teacher. In my county, not only are you paid less with a provisional certificate, but you are also NOT eligible for step raises if you only have a BS (cost of living raises still go into effect).

Someone with a Master’s will be eligible for step increases but is still paid less than a fully certified teacher.

Perhaps some kind of incentive bonus (for staying through the year, LOL) could be implemented to help make it worthwhile for math/science professional to make the switch.

By Tony

June 14, 2007 5:20 PM | Link to this

SET has hit the nail on the head. The political forces that set pay scales for public schools DEVALUE STUDENTS by not putting their money where their mouths are. Somehow, the public and the elected officials think we can provide world class educations for all students by cutting class sizes and budgets at the same time. Go figure.

Jeff-I do kick kids out of school who are disrespectful, commit violent acts, or otherwise violate the discipline code in serious ways.

By Tony

June 14, 2007 5:22 PM | Link to this

How do universities handle pay issues for critical areas like this?

By lovelyliz

June 14, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

I graduated with a B.S. in Math & Secondary Education. I knew I wouldn’t change the world, but I love math and wanted to pass it on. Besides, everyone in the country has been clamoring for math & science teachers. I was going to a university with a very good education department and by the time I started my student teaching, I knew, just, knew that the job offers were going to roll in.

REALITY CHECK

When I graduated, not one of the math majors had any solid offers. Interviews yes, offers no. A couple of phys ed majors who were getting their minors in math had positions offered to them, but none of us who were more qualified were scooped up like we had been told we would be. I worked part time as a substitute only to find out that politics rule when you want to get a decent job teaching at a decent school. Who you knew mattered more. I am not saying that I wanted to teach in the best schools in the country, but every first year teacher needs to get their feet we before they are thrown to the wolves. I even met someone who had been on the hiring list for 3 years in the local overcrowded school district and hadn’t been offered a full time position. I move and found work as a substitute, but the waiting list there was too long and there was no work during the summer break.

I joined the military. When I got out, I looked into teaching again, the local school district announced that they were firing, going to furlough is what called it, all non-tenured teachers who would be invited to reapply in the fall. That would have been 3 months with no pay, no health benefits and no guarantee of an open position. I found work doing something else. It’s not what I love, but I make a decent living, have more flexibility and I get paid for every hour of the 40 I put in during the week.

Then there are the usual reasons. There’s not a lot of respect for the teaching profession as a whole. Everyone thinks we are well compensated for working 8-3 with weekend, holidays and summers off. No one ever sees the 15-20 hours put in before/after school and on weekends. No one knows how much $$$ teachers spend out of pocket on classroom supplies. No one knows how expensive that Master’s degree that schools want you to have is going to cost.

The reality for many math teachers is that there is a lot of politics involved in just getting a job. It’s cheaper to hire someone less qualified to teach the lower level courses or to squeeze more students into an already overcrowded situation and then complain about not having qualified teachers.

The inevitable outcome is that many of us have left a profession we loved and much of our idealism to work elsewhere. Never looking back.

By catlady

June 14, 2007 5:39 PM | Link to this

When I was a beginning undergraduate (37 years ago—sheesh!), I was put in the classroom starting the second quarter of my freshman year. I was in the classroom every quarter thereafter. Is that not common now? It gave me plenty of time and experience with different setups and age groups,plus some major reality checks. If that is not the case, why not? We have a lot of first year teachers who have virtually no experience except student teaching.

Mentoring is good, if it is set up right and the relationship can be well facilitated. I have seen too many that were not, and became almost adversarial. There needs to be more careful screening for this, and better training of both persons in the relationship. New teachers need to understand their role, as well.

All teachers need to be backed up by their principals. I have been fortunate that I have been by each of the 7 that I have outlived/outlasted. If there was a question, we talked about it privately. And I backed up him/her also. This is a necessity, not a “pretty”. I made sure that any decision I made, any assignment, I could explain the whys and wherefores. Everything had a reason, not an excuse.

It would be great if the state would change some of its rules to get the talented specialists and the experienced retired teachers back into the classroom part time. The coming crunch for teachers should have the DOE doing serious investigation of this to make it more likely to happen.

The most important thing, however, that the DOE can do to get and keep all good teachers is to insist on high discipline standards for every school. Stop hiding behind the “we can’t have an alternative school for elementary level students” and provide the bootcamp sort of environment that offers hope for those kids. Let the teachers teach. Insist that the students work. Insist that the parents be involved, and demand that those who don’t be “intervened with” by DFACS. When that is accomplished you will see teachers staying in the field, and students reaping the benefits.

By luvs2teach

June 14, 2007 5:41 PM | Link to this

lovelyliz - it’s shame that all of that kept you from the profesion.

Like you, and for many of the reasons you stated, I talked myself out of being a teacher for a very long time.

Eventually, I couldn’t resist the calling anymore and I went for it - but, it wasn’t easy - there were lots of obstacles, time-wise and financially.

Overall though, I’m glad I did it, and I can’t imagine doing anything else - I think of my prior cubicle existence and shudder!

By luvs2teach

June 14, 2007 5:53 PM | Link to this

“All teachers need to be backed up by their principals. I have been fortunate that I have been by each of the 7 that I have outlived/outlasted. If there was a question, we talked about it privately. And I backed up him/her also. This is a necessity, not a “pretty”. I made sure that any decision I made, any assignment, I could explain the whys and wherefores. Everything had a reason, not an excuse.”

Amen to that, as well as the rest of your post, cat!

I had an interesting convo with my principal lately about discipline. It came up in a group of teachers and admin discussing referrals. One of the admin stated that they know who the ones are that write too many referrals (in lieu of good classroom management was the implication) and they had a tendency to give lesser consequences to those kids!

Another teacher and I brought up the point that this only makes it worse - then the kids know they can get away with all kinds of things in Ms. So-and-so’s class, and they won’t even get in trouble.

Granted, the ideal situation is to have the teacher be in the position to deal with most things in the classroom, but this ends up only causing more problems. The admin need to give these kids big consequences, and also work with that teacher to improve classroom management.

By SET

June 14, 2007 5:55 PM | Link to this

I believe it is fairly easy for the Jr. Colleges in CA to hire. The applicants with Master’s Degrees or higher in the subject are eligible. There are ways to quickly hire vocational instructors - un-degreed candidates may substitute years of state licensure and/or work for various subjects.

Why are the high schools harder to qualify to teach in than the Jr. Colleges? The Colleges pay more, and that’s great. They can go recruit who they want without worrying about units taken in “educational” courses.

The screens on high school instructor hiring are there as trade guild rules to protect the status quo. I’d like our High Schools to be able to recruit instructors such as retired physicians, industry chemists or whatever to teach high school classes. Even with the anemic pay scales if the red tape were cut, maybe the schools could do more for all the kids.

I met Dr. Edward Teller before he died- he was very old at the time and required assistance in getting around. He was running Physics high school classes in the Bay Area for select high school students. When selected, the students came to his class at facilities in Livermore Lab (A Branch of the Univ of CA). He was an historic figure - and probably couldn’t get hired at a public high school because of the keep-out rules the high schools have to live under (“education” units, etc).

His program was under UC so they could do what they wanted. I went to a UC high School program for HS Biology and Physics and was taught by grad students who couldn’t get state HS teaching credentials.

Maybe we should just open more high school lab science classes at the colleges. They have more $$ and they know more about academics and are less likely to tolerate bad deportment.

By Jeff

June 14, 2007 6:33 PM | Link to this

lovelyliz:

The sad fact is that in my case, I DO look back. EVERY DAY. Don’t get me wrong: I like what I’m doing now, I’m GREAT at it, and I’ll be making REALLY good money within the 5 yrs that I told T I would do this definetly. But as mentally stimulating as it is, I miss the much more do-or-be-destroyed level of challenge I had in teaching. I would LIKE to go back. But not as long as the CES is in power. If I go back while the CES is in power, it will just result in me leaving again, no good can come of it. How I long for the day when the CES is replaced by an Educational System that actually MAKES SENSE!!!

By Kim J

June 14, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this

I continue to stand by my assertion that school courses need to reflect students’ strengths and interests. Requiring students to learn advanced skills in a subject in which they exhibit weakness or disinterest is not only cruel, but detrimental to that student’s overall success.

If students show more interest, teaching may become more appealing as a career. The classroom will become a fruitful place, in which student progress is the main concern (in contrast to delinquency or failure).

By Kim J

June 14, 2007 6:44 PM | Link to this

I continue to stand by my assertion that school courses need to reflect students’ strengths and interests. Requiring students to learn advanced skills in a subject in which they exhibit weakness or disinterest is not only cruel, but detrimental to that student’s overall success.

If students show more interest, teaching may become more appealing as a career. The classroom will become a fruitful place, in which student progress is the main concern (in contrast to delinquency or failure).

By Lisa B.

June 14, 2007 6:57 PM | Link to this

Catlady,

In my alternative certification program I took 9 education classes and completed student teaching. In all 9 classes, I was required to spend a designated number of hours per week in schools. Thank Goodness! Three people in the program dropped out the first quarter because they saw immmediately that teaching wasn’t what they thought. It is important for people to see right away they don’t like being in schools, so they don’t waste their time. One of the people who dropped said she suddenly saw her banking career in a whole new light, and stayed there. She’s now a V.P.

SET, in Georgia, Jr. College instructors are paid so poorly that one is better off to stay in public education. I have friends who are far better suited to teach adults, but stay in K-12 because the pay is better. That’s sad.

By moogirl

June 14, 2007 7:05 PM | Link to this

This is addressed to Dana from GaDOE: It would definitely make it easier on the math and science teachers that are currently working if these so-called “performance standards” made sense! I’ve never seen such nonsense as having to sit in meetings and “unpack” the “standards”. Why can’t you folks at the DOE write what you mean and mean what you write without all the “educationese”??????

By moogirl

June 14, 2007 7:07 PM | Link to this

This is addressed to Dana from GaDOE: It would definitely make it easier on the math and science teachers that are currently working if these so-called “performance standards” made sense! I’ve never seen such nonsense as having to sit in meetings and “unpack” the “standards”. Why can’t you folks at the DOE write what you mean and mean what you write without all the “educationese”??????

By clarice

June 15, 2007 8:12 AM | Link to this

Discipline has been thrown out of the classroom because of the Presidents NCLB mandates to meet AYP. Schools won’t even call the police for bad fights because of this mandate and the fact that they don’t want to get on the list that lables them. NCLB is one of the worst things to hit the educational system. If parents weren’t so afraid of their children and would be a parent and not their friend some things might change, but most of todays parents don’t value education the way they used to, it is just a glorified baby sitter.

By Lee

June 15, 2007 8:32 AM | Link to this

The bottom line is that if you want math and science teachers, you’re going to have to pay for it. There’s not much else you can do with an Early Childhood, History, English, etc. degree except teach. Math and Science majors simply have more options.

First year teacher with a Master’s or Specialist degree salary is what, $45k? Compare that with a first year staff pharmacist at $90k.

And speaking of salaries, why this nonsense of tying salaries to the education level of the teacher? Do we really need 1st grade teachers with advanced degrees? Do we really want to pay PE teachers with Phd’s $90k per year? Because of the pay scale, we now have teachers getting on-line advanced degrees in droves just for the raise in salary. Do the children benefit from this? Is it the best use of our taxes? I think not.

As a parent, I would rather have a retired Engineer with years of “real world” experience teach my child math than someone who has nothing else to offer other than what’s in the textbook. Too bad that administrators are so intimidated by this experience that they put up barriers to keep them out.

Our children are the real losers here.

By Lee

June 15, 2007 8:44 AM | Link to this

RE Catlady’s comment: “Insist that the parents be involved, and demand that those who don’t be “intervened with” by DFACS.”

Whenever I see a comment like the above, I just cringe. The last thing I want is some petty, tin-horn dictator of an administrator telling me what I can or can’t do as a parent. This is a typical response by many in the education field, they screwed up one of the premier education systems in the world in just 30 years, so now let’s work on the rest of society.

Bullcrap. You’ve got these kids for 8 hours per day. Do your job during this time and don’t stress over or blame the things you can’t (or shouldn’t) control.

Back in my day, we had parents who weren’t worth a damn, but the education system worked. Today, we still have parents who aren’t worth a damn, but the education system is broke as well.

Recipe for disaster. Might I suggest you cure the school system first….

By lovelyliz

June 15, 2007 9:05 AM | Link to this

Funding is a big part of the issue. The public recognizes the need and demands more qualified math and science teacher, but when it comes to paying for them they aren’t too sure. I am not talking about paying these teachers what they are worth but simply coming across with enough $$$ to hire them as first year teachers.

If tomorrow the state were to graduate 100 well qualified math and science teachers and they were to all apply for positions in the public school system, better than half of them would not be able to find work in their fields in secondary education.

Rhetoric doesn’t pay salaries.

By Shell

June 15, 2007 9:13 AM | Link to this

Most smart people know it really doesn’t matter what you major in college as long as you graduate. I have friends with degrees in Art History and Political Science who make $60,000 a year after three years in corporate America. Just look at the major of most CEO’s and even Allen Greenspan. I have friends who became teachers and get upset to see all those liberal Arts major living upscale neighborhoods and driving BMWs. You should become a teacher because you want to and not by default. If you want to make money stay out of education. Teach because you want to make a difference.

By clarice

June 15, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this

Lee, You need to come sit in a classroom/school for a day or two to see what the “real” world is like. I get real sick and tired of hearing from people like you, who have never sat in a classroom/school as a teacher or substitute and doesn’t have the knowledge of what you are spouting off about.
I agree with you that DFACS is not the answer, but how do you propose to get parents/community involved? Also, what do you think the “cure” is for our educational system? When a classroom has one or two unruly children, it can affect a whole class, as the teacher is trying to teach and keep them involved in the lesson. I have been in the system for over 25 years and I have seen good and bad teachers, administrators, etc. It is just like any work place, however, we are so much in the public eye because we are “educating” the next generation who for the majority doesn’t care. I really feel for those children who want to learn and get a good education and they have to put up with the few who cause the most problems. The discipline brochure mandates what the punishment should be for the offense, but it is rarely used and upheld. If a parent gripes to the right person, it can always be overturned. Politics plays a big role in a lot of the problems.

By catlady

June 15, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this

Hey, Lee, lemme give you a few examples of what you might call

petty, tin-horn dictator of an administrator telling me what I can or can’t do as a parent.

I would like DFACS involved when a child simply cannot see, the school can help (through Lion’ Club) pay for the exam and simple glasses, and the parent won’t make the appointment and take the child.

I’d like DFACS to intervene when a child is late to school EVERY SINGLE DAY. Comes in 10 minutes to over an hour late. Yeah, yeah, attendance support team, right? But it is neglect in a visible way.

I’d like DFACS involved when parents refuse to come to the school even though their child is failing, combative, etc. Even when the parent can name the day and time for the meeting.

I’d like DFACS involved when we cannot get a true, working phone number for a parent in case of illness or accident to the child.

I’d like DFACS involved when a child has serious symptoms of diabetes. Or when a child’s hair is falling out, and the parent won’t take them to the doctor (but still rides around in a nice car).

I’d like DFACS involved when a child comes to school in his dad’s boots and says his mother has sold all of his shoes. Says he isn’t getting his medicine for ADHD/OCD.

I’d like DFACS involved when an 8 year old child comes to school REEKING of marijuana smoke every morning.

I’d like DFACS help when a child’s teeth are rotten and she cries every day.

I’d like DFACS help when a child has sores on his body because of his skin overlapping where the rolls of fat are because he weighs 300+ pounds and is 8 years old.

So, maybe what YOU are fearing is petty, but I am willing to bet that what teachers want help with is NOT. Visit a school sometime and take a look.

By Lee

June 15, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

Clarice, what is the “cure”?

Let’s analyze your previous post….

“When a classroom has one or two unruly children, it can affect a whole class…”

“…the few who cause the most problems. The discipline brochure mandates what the punishment should be for the offense, but it is rarely used and upheld.”

Seems to me you have identified one of the major problems.

Now, it seems to me that one of the magical “cures” is to deal with the troublemakers and restore discipline in the classroom.

But, of course, I’m not a teacher so that means I don’t know what I’m talking about…..

By Lee

June 15, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

Catlady, most of what you describe is child abuse (neglect) or criminal and DFACS currently has the authority to get involved in those cases.

And yes, there is a significant percentage of administrators who are petty and vindictive and the last thing they need is more authority.

Do we really want a principal who thinks a Tweety Bird keychain is a weapon to have more authority over the parent?

I don’t think so…

By lovelyliz

June 15, 2007 9:54 AM | Link to this

Jeff

I feel the same way. Even though I am no longer part of the official teaching profession, I’ll tutor anybody who asks and I do it for free. The wife of one of my coworkers was taking a calculus course and needed help. I was too happy to oblige.

By luvs2teach

June 15, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this

So Lee - what’s your solution to getting those troublemakers out of the classroom?

You realize that they “can’t” be suspended because that would count against attendance, and attendance is part of AYP?

I know you are unhappy with the educational system, but your posts come across as bashing instead of offering helpful insight or suggestions. catlady wasn’t talking about YOU when she mentioned DFACS (and we are mandated reporters, you know - and it violates our code of ethics if we don’t report - oh, I hear you laughing, what code of ethics…). And Clarice was merely expressing her frustration at the general public thinking it’s so easy.

I came to teaching from the corporate world with illusions (and delusions) of what it would be like. I thought I knew because I spent some time volunteering in my kids’ classrooms. I had no clue!

Lighten up - most of us are trying to be part of the solution. We invite you to join us.

By Ernest

June 15, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this

Dana:

Good to know you are lurking from time to time. What are the thoughts about ‘off shore’ math/science teachers? I understand the school system for Wichita has had success recruiting teachers from the Philippines. In fairness, the discipline challenges that many teachers are facing may keep this from being a viable solution however we do need to think out of the box. Aside from discipline and language challenges, this is something worth considering.

In lieu of finding teachers offshore, I also would recommend a different salary scale for math/science teachers. This is Econ 101, if the demand is high and the supply low, you adjust the wages accordingly. I see this as the only way to increase the pool of these types of resources.

By kaab

June 15, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

The answer reason is money. I have a math degree and a MA in education. I went straight to graduate school after college. In the five years I spent getting my two degrees, I had friends that earned a math degree and a BS in engineering in the same amount of time. During our first year of working, they made at least twice as much as I did and were not getting disrepected by high schoolers. As much as I loved teaching, I really considered changing professions. Fortunately, I was able to find a job at a different school where I actually TEACH math and have very little dicipline problems.

To piggyback on Catlady - I work for the Department of Defense Dependent schools. When some of the issues, she wrote about arises, the school can call the sponsor’s command about the problem. Then the person is ordered to take care of the problem. It does help with the student’s ability to learn. When a person enlists in the military, they do give up some of their rights. Kind of ironic. Anyway, making parents take care of their childeren and providing a safe place to live, allows our school system to be top notch.

By Lee

June 15, 2007 10:44 AM | Link to this

Luvs, I’m sorry that my posts appear to be “bashing.” It’s just that there are so many targets of opportunity here… Come to think of it, I didn’t say anything that hasn’t been said by you teachers before - so how is that “bashing.” Ok, I get it - parents complaining is bashing; teachers complaining is constructive criticism.

Oh, nevermind.

Speaking of ethics…. A principal knows that he/she should suspend a student, but that would count against the attendence and the school might not make AYP. School doesn’t make AYP for a couple of years, they get a new principal. Much better to keep the troublemaker in the class and hope that the teacher can work miracles than to actually deal with the problem.

Yeah, that’s real ethical.

And that’s who you want to have MORE authority over me as a parent.

That’ll never happen. I’ll pull my child out and put her in private school.

Oh wait, I already put her in private school.

Hey, I’ve got nothing to lose. Give ‘em more authority….

By catlady

June 15, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

Lee, DFACS has the authority, but they consider such concerns “petty” compared to sexual and physical abuse, starving children, etc. So DFACS, at least in my area, won’t touch this stuff. As a mandated reporter, I report anyway, but in all my years (33) I have SEEN DFACS intervene twice. So I think it would be helpful if there were another mechanism for addressing these problems. I can go to jail if I don’t report, yet no one has to let me know they have addressed, or even investigated.

Yeah, there are petty principals but THEY RARELY HAVE TIME TO GET IN YOUR BUSINESS UNLESS YOUR CHILD’S SAFETY IS AT STAKE. At least that is true of the schools and principals I have worked with over three decades.

No one says you don’t know what you are talking about. But there are things you might not be aware of, unless you are intimately involved in the school.

You are at least 100% correct (maybe 110%) about discipline related issues being key.

By luvs2teach

June 15, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

Lee - is that what I said? That you were bashing, but what I said was constructive criticism? (sidenote - to me there is a difference in relating an experience to provide insight and general complaining for the sake of complaining).

You know, tone is missing from blog posts, and maybe you don’t mean to come off as negative as you do. But there are other parents, who are not teachers, and who manage to discuss the issues - and even complain about the problems - without coming off as bashing teachers.

And show me where I said I wanted more sontrol over YOU as a parent - I said specifically that you were not the problem. But when one of my failing students (who has to be constantly woken in class each morning) is seen walking down a busy street at 11:00 on a school night, and that parent has no working numbers - yeah, I have a problem with that. Not as a teacher - as a person.

My daughter was in 9th grade before I started teaching, so I have more experience from a parent’s perspective than a teacher’s. I was not traditionally trained as a teacher in one of Jeff’s “Schools of Indoctrination.” I get as frustrated as the next person at the educratic BS I see. But I work everyday to improve it - I teach in my neighborhood school, so every day I feel a vested interest. I attend meetings. I blog! I try to be fair, proactive, and positive (key word - try). I get frustrated when I see the same old, same old, same old tired arguments, complaints, and bashing.

The system is not perfect, far from it. But you still didn’t answer my question: what would you do ti FIX IT?

By Lee

June 15, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

Catlady, isn’t DFACS administered under the authority of the local county commissioners? If so, and if they are not doing their job, sounds like you need to get about 50 or so teachers to flood the county commissioner’s meeting and get on the agenda for a couple of months.

By Lee

June 15, 2007 11:49 AM | Link to this

Ok Luvs, you ask what I would do to fix this. OK, here goes:

• Group by ability. Eliminate this nonsense of having about six different ability levels in one classroom. Currently, you have the future valedictorian sitting in the same class as the future felon, a special ed kid who is barely funtional (God love ‘em, but they have no business in a regular classroom), some illegal alien kid who cannot speak a lick of English, and a host abilities all across the spectrum.

• When you group by ability, this also means that the age / grade grouping becomes less important. What this means is that you may have a student in the 4th grade reading with his “peers”, but is in a 3rd grade math class. BTW, Gifted, Honors, College Prep, and AP classes are really a way to group by ability, so why don’t we just cut to the chase and do it right?

• It is my opinion that a large percentage of discipline problems is caused by a small minority of students. You must find a way to get them out of the general student population. Alternative school. Reform school. I don’t care what you call it. Get them out of the regular school and the “hanger’s on” and “wanna be’s” will fall in line.

• Put honest to God recesses back into the elementary schools. They’re kids. Let them run and burn off that excess energy and see how quickly your ADHD (or whatever) problems go away.

• Not everybody wants (or needs) to go to college. Give them a technical track so that they can graduate and actually earn a living.

• Significantly reduce the emphasis on sports - especially football. Yes, I was a two sport athlete in school, so don’t try to use that arguement with me. It’s (football) the biggest distraction we have in schools today. Not to mention the multi-million dollar stadiums every school seems to want today.

• Finally, slow down. Not much sense in pushing Algebra down to the 6-7th grade when they forgot how to divide by fractions. We should focus on MASTERY of the core subjects.

OK, there it is. I’m sure many of you will post on how this or that is against the law or some nonsense. Which will bring up another point, the SYSTEM does not want to change - and as long as the football team makes the playoff’s, the parents don’t care.

By luvs2teach

June 15, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

Lee - believe it or not - I AGREE!!! - with every single one of your suggestions (well, as a middle school teacher in a school w/o sports, I would like to see sports put back into MS). And most of my co-workers would as well.

Does that surprise you?

Those of us in the trenches know how absolutely ridiculous some of these trends in education have been, yet we do feel powerless to change it (jim d would tell us all to walk, but that’s not really practical, is it?).

Unfortunately politics and our increasingly litigious society have indeed conspired to make some of the mess. It is a law that we must educate illegal aliens (started with Lau vs San Francisco BOE, 1974, I think). And it was another lovely lawsuit that pushed special ed into the “least restrictive environment.” Sometimes I think the “powers that be” let this stuff happen because it keeps the masses stupid (SET - you with me on this one?)

But, that being said, I think things are swinging back around. I think there are enough angry parents like you and jim d taking your kids out and speaking up, and frustrated teachers like catlady, janine, and the rest where the common sense pendulum will swing back - at least part way.

NCLB (for all its faults) is showing how some of these things need to be changed (although all you conspiracy therists out there think it’s all to get vouchers - maybe it is).

Thanks!

By WFC

June 15, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

SET is on the money here. The lack of decent pay for true math and science guys is a problem but not the only one. I recently retired after 30 years of teaching history (so I don’t really have a dog in this fight) but I noticed something about math and science teachers (at least the good ones) that’s a little different: they do not suffer fools gladly. And there are lots of fools in positions of authority in Georgia’s public schools. It’s not just the money differential that keeps talented math/science guys out of public school teaching.

My rising junior-in-high-school son is a perfect example. He would be an excellent teacher. 99% and 98% in Honors Chemistry at Northview High School. Also an “A” student in advanced math. Will he consider teaching in high school after finishing college? I don’t think so and it won’t be because of the money. My family is forunate to have money and Beau is the only heir. He will be a millionare many times over by age 40. Why would he tolerate the indignities of teaching science in the public schools?

Has anyone studied the academic attainments of the people who run the public schools in Georgia? I’ll limit myself to a couple of specific examples related to the Fulton County School System where I spent the last 20 years of my career. Watch the proceedings of the Fulton Co. Board of Education and draw your own conclusions. Also, take a look at the Associate Superintendant for Curriculum and Instruction, Robert Burke. I worked as an administrator under Dr. Burke for 4 years and he is a smart man. However, in 30 years of education I never met a person LESS interested in “curriculum and instruction.” How does this happen? I think that my son, Beau, will be taking his soon-to-be expertise in math and science elsewhere.

By Competitive

June 15, 2007 5:25 PM | Link to this

Here’s a thought that might make sense. Let’s give teachers a bonus for every five years of consecutive service in the same school district. For example, if I teach in Gwinnett for 5 consecutive years, I earn a $5000 bonus at the end of my 5th school year. If I make it to 10 years consecutively, I earn a $10,000 bonus. You could add requirements such as satisfactory annual evaluations for each year, evidence of “reasonable” test scores, etc. Why would this help? We all agree that one major problem is too many good teachers leave education early. We also agree that many teachers can find better paying jobs in the private sector, often with better working conditions. My idea might encourage more good teachers to stay in the classroom. It would reduce the need for school systems to spend money and time training new teachers and provide mentors, etc. The money saved would go to the good teachers who stay in the classroom for extended periods of time. I think this should be available to all teachers, regardless of subject or grade-level taught. We need more good teachers in all areas, not just math and science.