Get Schooled

By Jeff

June 12, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this

So which would you rather have: low standards and high graduation rate or high standards and low graduation rate.

Personally, I prefer high standards…

By catlady

June 12, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

To paraphrase Jeff, would you rather know how bad it really is, and expose our shortcomings so we can work on them, or would you rather gloss over it (see CRCT, etc), pretend there is not a problem, and not address the problems?

And then put out a glossy spin on how much better things are?

By mum

June 12, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

Until GA “gets it” and realizes that for the most part, if you expect little from kids, you get little, expect much and stick to your guns, kids will rise to the occasion. Every year they tweak and shift the bar a little lower, then tell everyone it harder….compared to what? When the Secretary of Education is against national standards, I guess the party loyalists go along. Why do what’s BEST for the students???? Keep lowering the standards and a pet rock can pass.

Where I went to school,the entire country had the same curriculum at each grade level and took the same NATIONAL exams every year. We also had individual subject testing administered by the faculty throughout the year so there were no surprises as to what “johnny/jane” knew or didn’t know at year end. Teach to the curriculum not the test and you see results. How difficult is that in this country?

By mum

June 12, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

This article in the Washington Post the past weekend says it all www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/08/AR2007060802266.html

By Janine

June 12, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

Bridget, All that needs to be said on this subject was said by Jeff, catlady, and mum!! I am absolutely certain that the best approach is what mum mentioned….a national curriculum and national exams on that curriculum. But, “Whoa” , say the politicians …”Way too revealing! Let’s continue to do what we do best!Cover the poop with frosting! It’s much easier to make frosting than to actually clean up the poop!”

By Jeff

June 12, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this

Janine:

The difference is that I STRONGLY OPPOSE any National Curriculum. We need to return control to the LOCAL BOARD, not give the Feds even MORE say so.

By mum

June 12, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

Jeff: I understand your feelings but neither party is doing what’s “right” are they? Most school board members are minor level politicians and will do anything to keep in with their supporters regardless fo the outcome. I’ve seen my board rep at my schools once in 10 years and she’s still on the board. Most of the schools under her guidance are considered failing schools. Somebody has to step up and say enough is enough.

I’ve known quite a few teachers who’ve quit the profession rather than compromise themselves by teaching “down” and letting the kids who were more advanced hang out to dry, and we’re talking about 6 year-olds. It doesn’t get better as you get older. Until the national government decides it wants to educate children in all the states, nothing will change. Can you suggest a local board here in GA that’s doing it right?

By Truth Filter

June 12, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

With lunch right around the corner, I will try to put the “frosting” and “poop” comment out of mind, but, regarding a national curriuclum…

That sounds great, doesn’t it. Let’s develop a national curriculum! Have a national test! Great idea. A few questions..

• Who will DEVELOP the curriculum? (the feds)
• Who will assure it’s being taught properly and teachers are trained properly? (The feds)
• How much time should we dedicate in the curriculum to Gen. Sherman? How about General Lee?
• Do you think the Religious Right will have any input on the teaching of, oh, say, EVOLUTION? Not that they could influence something at the federal level, right? Oh wait…

I could go on, but I’ll stop…A national curriculum is an absurd idea because it will be impossible to get everyone to agree on a curriculum that wouldn’t be so watered down and diffuse that it would be useless.

And I know someone is going to say “put together a panel of teachers to do this, etc. etc.” Not gonna happen without federal interference and you know it.

By mum

June 12, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

Well, since TruthFilter and Jeff are so strongly against a national curriculum, then what’s your solution as to who we can TRUST implicitly to put do what’s right for all our children? This just shows how far govenments have been allowed to sink when you can’t even get consensus on how children should be educated.

Why do you have to teach southerners “southern” history? I thought this was America? With the “religious right” dominating politics, it appears that eveyone is just sitting back and letting them have their way. If that’s the case, the America has really lost it’s backbone.

By Jeff

June 12, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

mum:

Well, ask me again this time next year, but from everything I’ve heard and what little I’ve personally seen, LEE COUNTY seems to have a pretty good handle on things….

By Ernest

June 12, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

How about this as a compromise, a national exam that is developed from a collaborative effort by teachers across the county and allowing local systems to determine their own curriculum? This still provides ‘local control’ while allowing citizens to evaluate/measure students with a common instrument.

I’m just trying to offer a suggestion for a complex problem. We know there are a LOT of variables involved in determining whether students are ‘getting it’ with regards to instruction. At the end of the day, we want to know how we measure up across the board. Heck, we could even take a page from SETs recommendations and suggest a vocational track for those that have not done well on portions of the test. We still need people to wire houses, repair our cars, and other similar jobs. A college education isn’t needed for someone to be successful with those jobs.

By Truth Filter

June 12, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

Haven’t been to a repair shop lately — it’s not just lug nuts anymore. It’s computerized and high-tech.

Ernest, your suggestion is good, except a national test still would require a discussion on a national set of standards. Then we’d be back to the beginning again.

And why is it important to know how we “measure up across the board?” Seriously: Education is local. Politicians, reporters and bloggers are the ones who care about rankings. For most parents, like me, I’m concerned about my local school and how it is serving my kid.

I know that’s an unpopular view: But, quite frankly, I think state rankings are meaningless. NCLB doesn’t even require state “rankings.” Sure, Georgia’s graduation rate is low. But guess what, a person moving to Georgia only cares about the school they are sending THEIR kid to. Not whether Hancock County’s school is getting it done. People in Hancock County care about that.

By mum

June 12, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this

I suppose my perspective is only what i was raised with. History was first the history of our country, later going on the world history. We didn’t have to worry about whether one portion of the country felt the need to only teach their version because we were all part of the whole. English was literature and language in all its components. You elected at about age 15 to do go the office-type (steno, typing), technical (drafting, metalwork, woodwork, etc), or college route (biology, chemistry) track with your classes from about age 15 on; or you left school as soon as it was legal to do so. We all still had core classes of english, math, geography and history.

If you didn’t want this type of education, you had private schools…very costly. Very simple, comprehensive education. I know peoople from “up North” whose kids are sometimes 2 grade levels ahead of their counterparts in GA when the enroll in school here. Something is wrong with the Georgia picture.

By Janine

June 12, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

You know, TF, speaking of allowing locals do their own stuff…..NCLB actually allows state systems to devise their standards and make the tests to gauge annual yearly progress. The tests {CRCT in GA} can be as easy or as difficult as the state wishes to make them. THe pass cut off scores, excel scores…all decided by the state. THat’s why some states have almost no schools on the NCLB “failing” list and some states have hundreds of schools on the list. Although I do agree that a national curriculum would be a gnarly challenge, what we have now is just not working for most of our students….countrywide.

By DM

June 12, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

Just some info-the graduation rate is actually worse than it appears! They don’t count students who drop out after 8th grade!!!

By Alan Richard

June 12, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

We can raise BOTH graduation rates AND student achievement. Our state must do better than graduating just better than half its students on time. And we can continue to raise graduation requirements and the rigor of courses — just as the South has done for decades. If students finish high school, they can actually continue their education. Things aren’t all bad: five times the percentage of the population in GA has college degrees than they did in the 1950s. So, let’s not set our sights low. We can help more students finish high school, and achieve at higher levels.

By EducatorX3

June 12, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

DM…just curious. Where did you get your information? Not sure who “they” is, but I can tell you that students who dropout after 8th grade are certainly counted in all reports I ever filed for a school system.

By Ernest

June 12, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

Truth Filter, all views are welcome on this blog! I personally believe that in this ‘flattened’ world we live in today, those ranking are important. Quality of the local school systems is one of the ‘check off’ items businesses look at when deciding to establish or expand operations in an area. Our children will be competing against those in Eastern Europe, India, China, and other places around the world for jobs. IMO, not knowing how we rank makes us less competitive. That ultimately impacts the quality of life for all residents in an area.

By Lisa B.

June 12, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this

We somehow have to get the message across that high school dropouts normally cannot earn a liveable wage in today’s economy. I continually read that today’s kids often do not see the relevance in what is taught in school. In my day, relevance didn’t matter to me as much learning for learning’s sake, and staying on my parents’ good side! I’ve read that more children do graduate now than they did 20 and 30 years ago. I think we’re doing a better job educating those from poor socio-economic backgrounds than in the past.

By catlady

June 12, 2007 5:37 PM | Link to this

Lisa, I think “graduating” and “educating” can be two different things. I think we do graduate more students from poor and minority groups. We also graduate more special ed students. But is the average graduate on the same skill level as the average graduate 35 years ago? No.

The self-esteem, dumbing down, everything-is-negotiable, don’t sue us mentality has killed real education for many students who could have been educated.

By catlady

June 12, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

OOPS, left off part:

The self-esteem, dumbing down, everything-is-negotiable, don’t sue us mentality has killed real education for many students who could have been educated.

Now they just graduate and get HOPE.

(Please understand that I am not talking about ALL students. We have many incredibly bright, hard-working students whose achievement puts me to shame. I am talking about Average Amy and Arnold, however.)

By luvs2teach

June 12, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

One thing I noticed (unless I misunderstood) is that they consider “graduation” to mena a diploma four years after starting as a freshman. I think that’s unfair - 4 years is arbitrary, particularly for someone with below grade level skills.

How many drop out with the high hopes of getting a “great job” and “no more hassle from those #%$! teachers” and find out that a boss may hassle you more, and burger-flipping isn’t so great. I would love to know the numbers of those who drop out for a period of time, and then come back, more focused, and finish.

The graduation rates alone should be an indicator that what we do doesn’t work for everyone - we need more vocational training (not less), career exploration, and the kids at the margins need to see the purpose and relevance to what they do.

On the debate of national standards, I can only speak for science, but back in the 80s, the American Association for the Advancement of Science started a project called Project 2061 (trivia question - anyone know the significance of the name?). Anyway, they developed benchmarks of science literacy which the National Research Council used to develop National Science Education Standards. While the standards do not require any sort of national curriculum, states and textbook developers often incorporate those standards in curriculum and textbook development.

By Lisa B.

June 12, 2007 6:04 PM | Link to this

Good point, Catlady. You are absolutely correct about the quality of eduction received.

Still, I have ten years in this profession, and plan to stick with it. I work hard to make a difference with those students I touch, and have now been teaching long enough to see outcomes (good and bad). I wouldn’t dare cheat (or help kids cheat) on the CRCT, and am often criticized by parents for working their children too hard and not helping them enough. Funny, the kids rarely complain. Hmmmm.

I should knock on wood when I say this, but I intend never to return to my former life in the business world. I really love the kids, and the goal of educating all of them, while lofty, is worthwhile. Perhaps unattainable, but worthwhile :-)

I can’t imagine the changes I’ll see over the next 20 years. Catlady, I know you’ve seen it ALL at this point!

By Lisa B.

June 12, 2007 6:18 PM | Link to this

Luvs, I believe you are correct that only students who graduate on time count as graduates. I also know several kids who thought they were making such great money at the burger place or grocery store they decided they’d had enough school. Sad to say, once one adds bills to the picture, that minimum wage paycheck dries up in a hurry!

I think many young people have a rude awakening when entering the workforce. In our current society, when children dislike the teacher, or even another child in the classroom, administrators move them so they will be happy. I often ask my kids if they plan to quit a great job because they work with a person or two they dislike.

We’re seeing the results of too much pampering.

By catlady

June 12, 2007 6:23 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Lisa B. Granny’s gonna have to put her teeth in again. Personally, I am glad we don’t lose some of the kids we used to. I can recall when those who were different or slow did not get to come to school or did not go past 6th grade, even if they wanted to. Seems like to me, that old pendulum has swung a good bit the other way. We do anything to keep kids attending school (notice I did not say learning). We give them more lunch choices! More extracurriculars! Money for making grades (article in today’s paper about that)! Provide special programs! Provide graduation coaches, even in middle school! Work release! Multiple levels of courses! Counselors! Social workers! Nurses!

What we can’t “give” them is the wherewithall to use their God-given talents and ability to work and get an education. Motivation, self-direction, responsibility cannot be bought for our students, and it is these things that are sorely lacking for many students. No quick-fix, instant-action, high tech gizmo can take the place of those three things.

By Jeff

June 12, 2007 6:25 PM | Link to this

Lisa,

Second biggest AMEN of the day on this:

“We’re seeing the results of too much pampering.”

(First was earlier today on Mr. Wooten’s blog.)

By Lisa B.

June 12, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this

Hey Catlady, I’m probably not far behind you age-wise, just in years of teaching:-)

I was at my school today moving stuff (I’m changing schools) and noted the cafeteria in full-swing for the summer lunch program. The students enrolled get free sack lunches throughout the summer and the cafeteria staff gets to earn more money. I really don’t disagree with the program. There is a definite need for it. No child in America should be hungry, and our cafeteria staff is horribly underpaid, but I still get this question in the back of my mind: Where are the parents?

By Lisa B.

June 12, 2007 6:51 PM | Link to this

Catlady,

I know exactly what you mean about doing ANYTHING to keep kids attending school. We even put in names of kids with perfect attendance during the six-week grading period for a chance to win a bicycle. Lord, if it weren’t for Lysol, my whole class would have probably come down with Strep throat. Of course, forget suspension for rule violators. Don’t get me started there!

By SET

June 12, 2007 6:57 PM | Link to this

Here’s my contribution.. The students can manage a surprising amount of performance when it is expected of them. They can manage to read, they can manage to write, they can manage to solve for x. While some are brighter than others, I believe we can get a lot more performance out of the IQs of 80 to 100 than we have been doing. It starts with taking back control of the playhouse we have turned high schools into and by creating exit paths for those who just don’t fit in.

We have those exits now and they are called dropping out and getting pregnant, going to jail, rehab, prison, getting dead, etc. I deal with these people and I have friends who are struggling with children who see these exits as viable options.

I see and hear ads for private vocational schools - especially for medical tech jobs. While I like private enterprise I really want the public secondary schools and Jr colleges to teach a complete career path. From 8th grade to state licensing (most of the higher paying jobs like smog tech now require state licensing in CA)

I expect the state to instruct for much of these occupations the state is so busy “licensing”. I don’t want to exclude private schools, but I want my taxpayer’s dollars to at least return to the public the basics of education to an entry level paycheck. And some of these HS plus some Jr College occupations (No AA required) are very nice paychecks 60k/yr w/OT, etc.

So I take low HS graduation rates with a grain of salt. Of Course these rates seem low. To the extent they are high the books are cooked.

When I have done public speaking in High Schools - or the local Jail “Re-entry classes” - the students are not well briefed on occupations they can qualify for and what they pay and what it takes to get started in them. Some of our local Jailers and teachers are trying to work these subjects into the curriculum but it’s later than it should be. The older teenagers are in Fantasyland and we can change that real fast.

We need state and national policy that at least half of the HS students are to be very well versed in occupational subjects rather than college entrance requirements. Students should be forced to read and write to grade level to the extent possible, but beyond that they should be offered tracks every semester starting at puberty which lead to full time job placement and not full time college. Of course these programs often will include time in the 2 year colleges while they work part-time.

If we start demanding more from the teens we will get more. And there is usually a place for everyone in this brave new world - but they might have to wear a belt, cut their hair and learn to say sir and ma’am - so they are going to have to start while in high school.

By Lisa B.

June 12, 2007 7:36 PM | Link to this

Great comments SET! We got away from “tracking” because it hurt their self-esteem, or “overlooked” someone who was misclassified. While tracking certainly has its weaknesses, the picture you paint must be avoided.

My husband was “tracked” into vocational ed during the 1970’s, spent a few years in the military, then was gainfully employed in his technical field for 10 years before pursuing college and becoming a technical college instructor himself. My point is that high school prepared my husband for what he was ready to do at that point in his life. He was later able to continue his education when he chose to do so. His fellow high school classmates were able to do that as well. I don’t really understand the big problem with tracking. I think it is more important to provide skills so students who chose to end their education (even temporarily) after high school can at least make a living.

By SET

June 12, 2007 8:35 PM | Link to this

Lisa,

My perspective on this carnage we have in CA is that the bottom half of the children are turned out of the schools as walking victims for the first disease that touches them. They have deliberately not been taught how the criminal law works so they have a higher than required mortality rate vis a vis the criminal justice system. They have deliberately not been taught standard english and deportment so they really don’t know how to keep from being rejected for jobs they should be able to strive for - like bank teller at B of A.

The left side of the bell curve is so woefully ignorant of sanitation, medical and addiction issues that they can’t keep from food poisoning themselves, overdosing, or contracting VD when we were able to teach servicemen in WWII the basics of these things. They can’t fill out job applications, telephone stranger adults for information using the phone book, they can’t write any kind of simple letter (other than a text message coded note to a friend or peer).

I think our CA school districts are busy cooking the books because they manage to get rid of a whole lot of minority students prior to “graduation” - and the ‘graduates” have these problems with functioning.

I have a real problem with my tax dollars getting such a poor return from the “graduates”. I don’t think the schools care enough about the left side of the bell curve and I don’t think NCLB is changing that. NCLB requires the schools to get rid of the non-performers and to dumb down the rest of the students so no one “fails”.

And the 3rd world immigrant kids are out performing the home grown. That advantage seems to fade by the 2nd generation as they become Americanized (at least with the Mexicans).

By catlady

June 12, 2007 9:02 PM | Link to this

And the 3rd world immigrant kids are out performing the home grown. That advantage seems to fade… (SET)

You’ve got that right! We see that at my elementary school all the time. 16% of our children are of illegal immigrant parents, but they make up nearly 50% of the kids getting awards. I wouldn’t say it takes till the 3rd generation for that advantage to disappear, at least what I have seen. We can tell which children’s parents have been here the longest almost without fail. They are either the super-superstars or the worst behaved kids in the school! (like many of our “native” kids). Most of the teachers at our school would like a room full of ELL kids.

And SET, I don’t think the schools don’t care about the left side of the Bell Curve kids. I think they fail to acknowledge that they exist! We have this crazy idea that we can “fix” anything that walks in the door!

By Ernest

June 13, 2007 9:48 AM | Link to this

SET, your truthfulness is brutal but you are on target again. If I can read between the lines in what you are advocating, it sounds as though there should be greater collaboration between the Dept. of Labor along with the Dept. of Education regarding vocational curriculum tracks. True, it this flattened world many jobs are being outsourced offshore however there are just as many vocational type jobs that can’t be outsourced thus providing an option for many.

Lisa B. is right, tracking probably was misapplied in several cases in the past thus left a negative impression with many of those who lived during that time. Perhaps it’s time to admit we’ve learned from the mistakes of the past and revisit having this as an option for school systems.

By mum

June 13, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

I wonder how the Ms. Cox will spin these numbers. Probably something like that was back in ‘04 but it was up in ‘06.

Catlady: my Elementary school which has a large population of students with immigrant parents. Don’t know their legal status but, guess who’s dominating honors day? It’s more what’s expected of them at home, rather than their necessarily being smarter. It’s interesting to see a child in 3rd grade reading a 500 page book over lunch, while their parents still struggle with the English language. With all the talk about immigrants destroying the schools, people need to stop painting all these people with the same brush. My Mexican neighbor’s elsest child is one of the smartest kids I know, and her parents struggle with English; not to mention the Somali and Ethiopean kids who are excelling. For the most part, children of the first wave of immigrants are voracious learners, unfortunately, their kids sometimes quickly become just like the larger population as the get further away from that cultural expectation their parents had.

By mum

June 13, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this

SET:

Great insights. Unfortunately, there are people out there who will say let them rot if they don’t want to learn, but never look at how these undereducated masses will prey on them later on in life when life beats them down. It’s easy to say tough, they made their choice but how many kids out their have a clue what INTELLIGENT choices are?

By Lisa B.

June 13, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

I agree that educrats have decided the “left side of the Bell Curve kids,” don’t exist. Teachers are told repeatedly that “if our expectations are high enough, all the children will succeed.” Gag. I’ve said before on this blog that I have a niece with Down Syndrome. I promise you that if high expectations could fix IQ, my niece would be a rocket scientist. Because of very, very hard work, and very high expectations, my niece can read well enough to get by, but becoming a rocket scientist isn’t in the cards.

By Lisa B.

June 13, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

I know the pendulum swings, but this ‘one-size fits all’ education policy we currently face is very unfair to students and to society as a whole. I am concerned that if more rigorous high school standards are implemented while reducing student options, our high school drop-out rate will increase rather than decrease. I do agree that many kids will work as hard as we ask them to. Howver, I also think that parental expectations play a roll. I’ve already heard parents of middle schoolers bemoan the new, tougher standards their kids will face. I hear comments like “Johnny’s sister barely graduated. He doesn’t have a chance,” etc. Well, with that attitude from his parents, Johnny probably doesn’t. Johnny, however, is a magician with tools, equipment, motors, etc. He’s going to have a hard time getting into technical college though, if he doesn’t graduate from high school.

As SET says, “Brave New World.”

By Snarky

June 13, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

I wonder….

By OldSchool

June 13, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this

Okay folks, time to head to the Dept of Ed’s website and find the new Career Pathways for CTAE (Career, Technical, Agriculture Education.) (I personally think it’s overkill and what we have in place already was working…QCCs/Standards.

I firmly believe that any career/tech oriented student who truly desires to be properly and adequately prepared to move on the post-secondary ed or to work could fashion a high school program of study that is the same as a college prep EXCEPT for foreign language. That would free up 2 credits for concentration in a specific or complimentary CTAE course (like drafting & construction or drafting & metals). The foreign language exception would not include those interested in medical fields. They might have to chose between the med courses and something like band or the arts.

The trouble is, not too many students have a clear vision of where they want to go and what they want to do…at least beyond the next weekend.

Academic teachers should also take advantage of technical colleges when they offer the summer educator academies. It provides opportunities for them to see the real world connection between their classes and the world of work via the technical training offered. I know it really opened the eyes of our academic staff members down here. The academies also spark more across-the-curriculum ideas and activities that benefit both teachers and students and later, employers.

By luvs2teach

June 13, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this

OK - this is off-topic, but I just read this AJC article and my jaw dropped at this quote:

“‘Among other plans, colleges and universities should increase the number of As, Bs and Cs they offer in introductory courses in science and math to keep students from quitting,’ said Jan Kettlewell, associate vice chancellor for p-16 iniatives.”

Did I read that right? Does that sound like grade inflation to anyone?

Wow.

By Jeff

June 13, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

luvs:

Was wondering if our lovely mistress was going to put up a blog discussing that article for that very reason…

Like we NEED any MORE teachers out there that don’t know their subject THOROUGHLY????

And if they can’t pass the INTRO courses, what makes ANYONE think they can pass the ADVANCED courses????

By luvs2teach

June 13, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this

Piggy-backing on my previous off-topic comment - science gets such a short shrift - it’s not considered as important as reading and math in elementary school, and it doesn’t even count on the CRCT for promotion (and the kids know it) or AYP (although that is changing in a couple years).

You want to be a scientist when you grow up? What are you, some kind of geek?

If we want kids into science, colleges helping out public schools isn’t going to do it - we need science to be cool again, like it was in the 60s, when the Space Race was on. We need to see cool scientists in pop culture.

Maybe Paris Hilton could conduct some experiments in prison?

By luvs2teach

June 13, 2007 3:47 PM | Link to this

Jeff - my thoughts exactly!

We already have a problem with science instruction at the middle and high school levels - now we want to have even less-qualified intructors? They’re already having a tough time with the Praxis (or Gace - whatever) - how does giving them grades ensure that they’ve learned the content well enough to pass that test?

And if I were a college prof, I would have some serious issues with being asked to “give more As, Bs, and Cs.”

By mum

June 13, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach: I recall doing experiments with the good old bunsen burner and beakers at 12 years old. I even recall fondly the girl who fainted when we were disecting a frog I believe. We all thought it was pretty cool to be so hands-on. Nowadays, I hear every reason why it’s not safe to have kids so hands-on at such an early age for fear they’d blow up the lab. Can’t believe there weren’t kids like that when we were in school but they didn’t just NOT teach science to us did they. I have a rising 9th grader who at almost 15 has never done an experiment of this sort in a lab, and the kids she’s in school with are a pretty sharp group.

BRAVE NEW WORLD!

By Janine

June 13, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this

So does this Jan Kettlewell, associate vice chancellor for p-16 iniatives.???have the clout to actually implement her idea[s] ? She seems to be part of the problem and nowhere near part of a solution….to anything!!!!

By Penguinmom

June 13, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

While I think all students should be held to a high standard, I think the standard needs to make sense. In Gwinnett, I heard they will be getting rid of the technical-level core classes. Everyone will have to take college-prep math, etc. Does that really make sense?

I tutor a few kids in Alg II, Geom and Pre-Calc. I don’t believe everyone actually needs to take all of these classes in order to be successful in life. (When was the last time you used the Quadratic Formula? Math teachers excluded.) I think decisions like this are just going to increase the drop-out rate as those students who can’t succeed in these classes give up. Wouldn’t it be better to offer students a business accounting class or something with real-world math that they will actually use? Then those with college plans can take the higher level maths and those who are not planning on college or who are going into a more humanities based path can take math they can understand and use.

By catlady

June 13, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

Right now the name of the game seems to be “exposing kids” to this subject or that subject, instead of teaching to mastery. We have seventh graders who have not mastered the multiplication tables, for goodness sakes! (We have teachers and administrators who say “have went”!) There needs to be mastery, with accountability, before we worry about the higher math, etc. And no matter what the DOE says, I don’t think GPS will help unless we demand mastery of the skill. Not 60% (CRCT) but mastery.

By Stacey

June 13, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

I haven’t read all of the posts so forgive me if I echo someone else :-).. Unfortunately, I’m related to more high school dropouts than I want to admit to. A few of them are repeating the welfare cycle and don’t aspire to have more. They pay pennies in rent for Sec 8 (homes nicer than mine), food stamps, medical care plus pocket change.

I’m from a small town in MS & I’ve been out of high school 20 years now but my graduating class was the largest in the school’s history. In the past, a lot of kids dropped out in 10th grade to go to work at one of the many local factories (making pretty good money). In the mid-late 80’s, the factories started closing and we were all advised to go to college to study computers or nursing. Graduation / college ENTRY rates increased for a few years. By the mid 90’s, all of the factories were gone leaving a lot of people in their 40’s & 50’s displaced with no skills to do anything else. Around the same time, casinos came to town and hired anyone with a GED & a clean criminal background. Guess what?! Dropout rates are higher now than ever.

I know that doesn’t address the problem in Metro Atlanta / GA…Just my 2 cents worth.

By catlady

June 13, 2007 5:14 PM | Link to this

‘Among other plans, colleges and universities should increase the number of As, Bs and Cs they offer in introductory courses in science and math to keep students from quitting,’ said Jan Kettlewell, associate vice chancellor for p-16 iniatives.”

This is one indication of why Georgia students do so poorly: we will just give them better grades, and then they will know more math/science and stay in those programs. Talk about out of touch, magical thinking! If we up the grades (a la HOPE?) it means they are doing better.

Jeff, I bet you can really get “aholt” of this one!

Good grief! Maybe she should suggest that they study the subject, instead of being “given” the grades!

By SET

June 13, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this

Mum: I can’t get over the differences between my experience growing up in the Bay Area in the 60’s and what is going on today. Maybe the big difference is family size. Nowadays professional type families seem to stop at 2 children. When I was young it was 4 or 5 kids in a family group, and I remember one Irish family with 10 kids in school with me.

When you have 4 or more kids maybe you can’t afford to baby them so much. I can’t quite believe it now, but by 4th grade I and my classmates got around the East Bay on the public buses - transfers and all. We would entertain ourselves after school (4th grade!) and get ourselves home for dinner. We went on school field trips including a 2 week NYC and DC trip with 20 kids (aged 15 to 18) and one adult. I remember classmates being sent to visit relatives in Southern CA and back east flying unescorted prior to High School.

Now I have friends and relatives who take off from work to pick up their 16 year old kids so they won’t have to find their own way home - and refuse to allow the little darlings to get driver’s licenses until they’re 18 because something might happen. All these helicopter parents have only 2 kids.

When I was in public HS biology the teachers shut the door and dumped a box of live frogs on the floor and told us we have whatever number of minutes to catch one and produce named frog organs numbered on a platter. My teachers didn’t obsess over how the frogs or the students felt. I can go on and on about how my generation were not babied - drafted also. We had checking accounts by 13 and paper routes and jobs and places to be and things to do while our parents worked and did whatever they did all day.

And if we misbehaved the various family members would physically slap the X out of us - grandparents and aunts and uncles included. It didn’t happen often (and we were very careful not to get caught doing whatever it was that was problematic). These brats now act out in front of cameras and microphones.

I keep thinking a lot of the pain I see people dealing with in my job would normally not have happened in the previous generations and wish something could be done to stop this.

That’s where my politically incorrect visions arise. And another thing - we had stupid people in 1965 and they didn’t have all these problems then either. Maybe they just weren’t as free. No One talked back to a public school teacher when I was in school and remained on campus.

I still see people who are doing just great - but they are smart and their families have always done well. The average people who would have been educated/socialized and advanced by public education and not being prepared to survive in this brave new world. I feel that they are being cheated out of the good public education that myself, my family and friends got. We all went to neighborhood public schools in CA. (with some early Catholic education)

By Jeff

June 13, 2007 6:27 PM | Link to this

catlady:

I could rip this to shreds in about two seconds.

Instead of forcing people to go through state-sanctioned Indoctrination Centers (aka “Colleges of Education”) why don’t they simply let anyone that passes the PRAXIS II - NOT GACE - in the given subject and passes a thorough criminal background check - I’m thinking Secret security clearance level - get a FULL teaching certificate?

This would simplify the process so that many of those engineers/ scientitsts that WOULD like to teach and KNOW their subject, but can’t sacrifice the time off to go through the Indoctrination Centers, to get in the classroom.

Even if they drop within a year or two, it CERTAINLY can’t be any worse than the current situation, and it will be FAR better than the proposal as noted!

By catlady

June 14, 2007 8:19 AM | Link to this

The more I think about Ms. Kettlewell’s comments in yesterday’s paper, the more I am aware of the disconnect between the real world and the DOE. She must labor under the impression that teachers/professors “give grades” so that a problem can just be fixed by giving out a different-shaped letter. Now the paper is bemoaning the sorry percentage of graduates. Also worth their attention is the bottom third of the graduates we do turn out: many of them unready for much of anything.

IMHO, it isn’t the “GPS alignment”, or teacher effort. It is all about student effort, priorities, and accountability. It is about the pressure put on teachers to pass kids on, about CRCT scores, minimal already, that are ignored, about students without adequate background that are put in courses, about grade inflation thanks to HOPE and parental expectation. Now comes one of our state’s education leaders and seems to be saying that the reason we don’t have more math/science majors is because kids in into college courses are being graded too hard! And she works in P-16 articulation! What a sad, total disconnect her comments showed.

By EducatorX3

June 14, 2007 9:05 AM | Link to this

First, while it is no less scary, Jan Kettlewell does not work for the DOE. She works for the Board of Regents. And while she does have a lot of power, she can’t implement such a ruling without the approval of lots of other people. Like I said, it doesn’t make what she said any less scary!

Now, wanting to give her the benefit of the doubt (yes, I still wear my rose-tinted glasses!) There is a mandate that all professors in the university system be exposed to the idea of creating assessments - both formative and summative - that actually test what is being taught. I would hope that she is referring to the idea of improved assessment practices and not the notion that we should “give” grades. It doesn’t read that way but I do know that there has been a lot of work going on in the area of assessment practices throughout the university system.

Jeff, I understand your feelings about what I do for a living, but you might want to check out the numbers on professionals who go into the classroom without the benefit of any knowledge of pedagogy, classroom management, assessment, or school law. I agree that content knowledge should be first and foremost - and my SOE is making major changes in how we prepare middle and secondary teachers - but I also teach in a program for “post-bac” students - those who have content knowledge and experience in other fields and now want to teach. The great majority of those folks need the pedagogical knowledge in order to be successful in the classroom. Do you really think passing a standardized test can make you a teacher? No more than failing one makes you a bad student.

Catlady - you’ve made some really good points. We should be teaching for mastery, not exposure. I believe that 60% mastery is much better than 100% coverage! And you hit the mark on graduation rates - there are multiple factors in the equation. Research shows us that if we can get them through 9th grade, they are less likely to drop out, and yet we continue to send students to high school unprepared for the real world because teacher recommendations are not heeded. We have grade inflation starting in elementary schools - sometimes the result of well-meaning teachers, sometimes the result of poorly thought-out policies, sometimes the result of inappropriate assessment practices. This inflation continues through middle and high school for the same reasons - and then throw in the pressure for the HOPE money - and we have masses registering for college who don’t know how to study or work for their grades.

Luvs - you are right! I am offended that anyone expects me to “give” grades. My students “earn” grades. I see it as my job to teach them what they need, asess them often, give them feedback for improvement, and reteach to correct misconceptions. Do the majority of my students make good grades? Yes, but it is because they work hard to earn them. I don’t “give” anything except my hard work.

OK…I’ve vented! Back to work now.

By Jeff

June 14, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this

EX3:

You have a job simply because the Education Establishment has duped the American Public into believing the BS you just spewed.

Disband the ENTIRE CES (Current Education System), build a new one that emphasizes STUDENT RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS ABOVE ALL ELSE, and we stand a chance at becoming the world’s best again.

Leave the CES in place, and we will continue to fail.

It is to the point already that I am considering staying in programming for the rest of my life SIMPLY so I can afford to pay for private education for my future children or have my wife and I homeschool them.

I REFUSE to let them put up with the GARBAGE that is the CES.

By EducatorX3

June 14, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I didn’t see anything in my post that says I don’t believe students should be responsible for their actions and work. Of course they should be! I just believe that I, as the teacher, have to be responsible for my actions as well. I take what I do very seriously. I am firm believer that unless learning has taken place, there was no teaching. Just because a student can spew back at me what has been said in class, does not mean they understand the application of the concept. (I would think you would agree with that since it is especially true in math)

I ask this question often - if you prepare the perfect lesson and deliver it to an empty room, have you taught? I don’t believe so.

As for private schools - go for it. You are right, they don’t have to deal with a lot of things that we have in public schools, but be prepared - they aren’t perfect either.

By mum

June 14, 2007 9:48 AM | Link to this

SET: Our experiences are very similar, even though wasn’t schooled in the U.S. We were terrified of the Headmaster, and we always knew who had the recently graduated teachers because the couldn’t control their classes, thought NOBODY acted out in the classes run by the older teachers because all they needed to do was look at you and you’d straighten up. Not to mention that wonderful deterent called caning. Making every kind of excuse for the little darlings has created an entire generation of kids who feel everyone owes them…what they are owed they don’t know but that’s how they are raised.

I believe that with the U.S. being such a litigious society, it’s way too easy for people to sue if they don’t like something rather than bothering to sensibly solve the problem. (case in point, that judge suing the cleaners for $50+ million over a lost over a pair of trousers). There are people out there who truly shouldn’t procreate, and other who need to find a backbone.

Bottom line, it’s not the number of children you have it’s the quality of how you raise them. I don’t get calls from school about my kids because they both know I’d embarass them in front of everyone. They push the envelope, but they also know that healthy “parent fear” that tends to keep kids in line.

Though I don’t always agree with you, your comments are always well thought out and presented.

By Jeff

June 14, 2007 9:52 AM | Link to this

Ex3:

I believe in two things in education:

Teachers should be SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS above ALL ELSE. I don’t care if The Terminator from the FIRST Terminator movie had better people skills than this person. If they are a subject matter expert, I want them in the classroom. Not some pansy that’s more concerned about their “self esteem”. If you have to do anything short of sending my kid to the hospital to maintain control of your classroom, I say do it. If you have to send em to the hospital, you’ve probably gone too far, but even then I would have to know the exact situation you faced at that moment.

Students are to be responsible for their EVERY action. If they ain’t learning it, ask questions. But do NOT demand that the teacher “accomodate” you. You have to adjust to - at most - 7 teaching styles in a day. Yet you are saying that the teacher needs to adjust to upwards of 200????? If the student is talking and the teacher decides to backslap their mouth shut or use duct tape, hey, go for it. Again, my only qualification is that you can’t do something that would send them to the hospital. If we had more teachers willing to do this - and, more importantly, more admins with the backbone to let the teacher be in charge of discipline - you wouldn’t see HALF the crap that I dealt with.

Remember: I have PHYSICAL SCARS from STUDENT ASSAULTS that were dealt with by trying to FIRE ME instead of put the “young person” - dripping with sarcasm because I want to use MUCH stronger language - in JAIL. I think I know what I’m talking about here.

By luvs2teach

June 14, 2007 10:11 AM | Link to this

Jeff - as a non-traditionally trained teacher, I agree that subject area expertise is very important - nor do I disagree that some - SOME - of the traditional forms of teacher education aren’t effective.

However, I have seen the “any warm body with a degree will do” in action, and it ain’t pretty.

We had a chemist a few years back, who wanted to “share the excitement of science with young people” - he lasted THREE weeks.

A CPA teaching math - he didn’t make it to the end of the first week.

A classically trained musician - she made it through the year, but left, vowing to never return to teaching.

There are more, but you get the idea - it’s a nice thought in theory, but you still need someone who can CONVEY their knowledge - not just possess it.

Personally, I think having my science degree and then teaching in a supported program (internship instead of student teaching) was a better preparation that traditional training.

By Jeff

June 14, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

luvs:

I would agree that my time spent in KSU’s College of Ed did in fact help me SOMEWHAT in my teaching career. I think it would be FAR more effective with a one year PAID internship instead of student teaching, and I have proposed that idea here before.

HOWEVER, my rants of the past 24 hrs stem from the fact that we have this MASSIVE shortage - roughly 5,000 teachers in the next couple of years, according to the article - and yet we keep putting MORE red tape in the way of those that would LIKE to teach.

It makes ZERO sense to me!!!!

By EducatorX3

June 14, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

Jeff, Teachers should be SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS above ALL ELSE.

Isn’t that what I said? Content should be first and foremost? However, it does no good for a teacher to know content if they cannot convey it to others. I think you are making assumptions about what I do and what I believe.

Yet you are saying that the teacher needs to adjust to upwards of 200?????

Again, no where in my posts do I see anything about a teacher adjusting to 200 learning styles daily (if you know anything about learning styles, you know there aren’t that many, but experts in the field don’t say to adjust, they say be aware.) But it is my job to teach and that implies learning takes place. I do have some responsibility for making sure I have done my part while the students are doing their part.

Not some pansy that’s more concerned about their “self esteem”.

Most true teachers know that self-esteem comes from working hard and gaining success based on that work. That is exactly how I addressed self-esteem in my classroom when I taught in public schools. You work hard - you get it.

You seem to think that because I don’t believe If you have to do anything short of sending my kid to the hospital to maintain control of your classroom, that I have issues with classroom management. I never had a problem with classroom management. I can, in the words of my son, “hush the Baptist church with one teacher look from the choir loft.” I rarely used discipline referrals, choosing instead to deal with issues in my classroom.

And before you start - yes, I have taught in a situation very similar to the one you were in. I, too, have been hit by a student - when trying to break up a fight - and the fight stopped immediately when the kid realized he had hit me. You see, there was a respect issue there. Regardless of his situation, he had respect for me because I did expect a lot of him. Did I let him off because the fight stopped - NO - he still faced the consequences of his actions.

Bottom line - Some of us - many on this blog - will remain in education because we believe that is where the catalyst will be for the changes that need to be made. Most of us don’t agree with everything (sometimes anything!) that is happening in our schools but we will stay the course because we believe we can, and do, make a difference in the lives of our students. If that makes me a “pansy” then I will wear the label proudly.

Selah

By luvs2teach

June 14, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this

I agree with eliminating the red tape - believe it or not, the process is much better now than it was when I first entered the classroom.

I think a bigger part of the problem is that many of the math and science folks DON’T want to teach.

For the majority (despite the lure of summer’s off) it would mean a pay cut as well as more work at home. I also think that a lot of people drawn to math and science aren’t your typical “people” people, if you know what I mean. I think of my friends who went into engineering, and overall, they were a bit of a strange lot.

By EducatorX3

June 14, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

Luvs - I agree with you! I support the idea of a full year of supported internship. My SOE is developing a program that will use this method as the main structure to teacher education. (There are many similar programs around the state)

Jeff - I understand your concerns about numbers. But there are many folks who CAN’T do what they would LIKE to do. Just because someone knows music doesn’t mean they can play in the symphony. Luvs said it…you have to be able to convey the knowledge.

By Jeff

June 14, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

Bridget just put up a blog about this, so I will shift there in a moment, but I wanted to part here with a note:

I have parents - particularly at Randolph - that can attest to the fact that when a kid sits down and shuts up, my content knowledge and delivery of said knowledge is second to NONE. If you sit there, keep that mouth CLOSED, and pay attention, 90% of you will learn SOME math through osmosis in my classroom. Will it be enough to pass this class? More than likely not. Will it be enough to pass the CRCT/ EOCT (depending on the level I’m teaching)? Probably not. But will it be more math than you came in this door at the beginning of the year knowing? Almost certainly.

My problem comes with kids that think they can talk incessantly in class - with no consequences - and still pass my class.

By catlady

June 14, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

EX3, Of course, you are right. Ms. Kettlewell works for USGa, which is not DOE. I was using the global DOE, meaning ed administrators at the state level, and I lump USGa and DTAE in with that in addition to K-12. I hope she WAs misquoted somehow about giving fewer F’s in beginning level college courses. If not…..

Jeff, my concern with what you are saying its this: how many of us have had professors who were the top of the field, bright, first-rate at their subject matter who could not convey it effectively in the classroom? In 13 years of postsecondary ed, I have had several. They never took a course in pedagogy, evaluation, student development theory, only courses leading to their eminence in their particular sub-area. That is tough when you are in college, to try to learn under someone who has no idea how to teach. Now, think about that happening to a young child. I don’t want my child to “teach” that teacher how to teach.

I agree in alternative certification methods. However, those I have seen who did not have a background in the above “teacher” skills did not last, and did not do much positive for their students, no matter how knowledgeable they were in their subject. It is sorta like having a surgeon who knows anatomy, diseases, etc., but has never held a scalpel. Even if he has been operated on in the past, if he has not operated before or learned how to operate, I sure don’t want him *!#? around in my innards!

By catlady

June 14, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

EX3, Of course, you are right. Ms. Kettlewell works for USGa, which is not DOE. I was using the global DOE, meaning ed administrators at the state level, and I lump USGa and DTAE in with that in addition to K-12. I hope she WAs misquoted somehow about giving fewer F’s in beginning level college courses. If not…..

Jeff, my concern with what you are saying its this: how many of us have had professors who were the top of the field, bright, first-rate at their subject matter who could not convey it effectively in the classroom? In 13 years of postsecondary ed, I have had several. They never took a course in pedagogy, evaluation, student development theory, only courses leading to their eminence in their particular sub-area. That is tough when you are in college, to try to learn under someone who has no idea how to teach. Now, think about that happening to a young child. I don’t want my child to “teach” that teacher how to teach.

I agree in alternative certification methods. However, those I have seen who did not have a background in the above “teacher” skills did not last, and did not do much positive for their students, no matter how knowledgeable they were in their subject. It is sorta like having a surgeon who knows anatomy, diseases, etc., but has never held a scalpel. Even if he has been operated on in the past, if he has not operated before or learned how to operate, I sure don’t want him *!#? around in my innards!

By Jeff

June 14, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

cat:

I’m specfically referring to those like me: Content knowledge/ delivery EXPERTS… just don’t deal so well with letting kids run wild with no consequences.

By ken

June 26, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

the facts are the truth!!!!!!! My district have over 75 percent drop out rate. No one ever talks about this sad fact.