Get Schooled

By Jeff

May 30, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this

ANYBODY can teach a small child how to count and the basic vocabulary (nouns, some verbs, some adverbs/ adjectives). Everything else can be taught starting in Kindergarten. It ain’t that complicated y’all!

By SET

May 30, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this

The only studies I’m aware of on the value of Head Start or Pre-K and K teaching, say that such programs have no impact on the academic success rate of the students involved. This conclusion has been replicated over and over for a very long time.

I do not believe the Pre-K students have a “lasting advantage” due to Pre-K. And I don’t trust this new study that has magically come up with a result that has never before been seen in the US. It would be nice if it were true, because this new generation is going to need all the help it can get as the USA declines.

Nevertheless I’d support school districts in their decisions to constantly try different programs that suit their needs and their wishes. We should not have centralized education policy in this country.

I believe that pre-K/Head Start programs and essentially daycare classes for the proletariat so the women can work. And the proletariat classes are being enlarged in this Brave New World the US has made for it’s people.

We’d all be better off if the preschool children had full time mothers, like they used to. But we have to make the best of things as we find them now.

By Jeff

May 30, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

SET:

Check out Dale Brown’s Edge of Battle. It has nothing to do with today’s topic, and it is fiction, but you may like it. He’s already put both the US Attorney for Southern Cali and the San Diego Mexican consular general in a dog-sized holding pen, and I’m only on chapter 5 or so!! (It paints a startling picture of immigration and terrorism along the same veins that Clancy’s Debt of Honor did about aviation and DC weaknesses…)

By Lisa B.

May 30, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

I know that when the Pre-K program was drastically expanded in Georgia with Lottery funds. At that time, the daycares got into the Pre-K business in a big way. The problem was that the pay for teachers was so low that the daycares couldn’t keep certified teachers in those positions. I may be mistaken, but I think the requirements for Pre-K teachers has changed now. I heard that Pre-K teachers no longer have to have four-year college degrees. If that is the case, Pre-K teachers will be easier to find, and private daycares should have an easier time meeting the demand.

By Joan

May 30, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

Pre-K is NOT mandatory, so just chill out. If your kid gets in, he does, if not, oh well. Keep them home for another year. Enjoy them while they are young and innocent, before the government gets a hold of them.

By Lisa B.

May 30, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

Forgive the messed up sentence in my previous post. Oops.

Anyway, I think Pre-K is very important for children coming from homes which provide little intellectual stimulation. I’ve met Pre-K children who didn’t recognize picutes of cows or horses, and who couldn’t identify any colors. For those children, Pre-K at least gives them some basic background knowledge to build upon. I think that if that advantage slacks off in later years, it may be because the home environment still provides little to no intellectual stimulation. That said, I doubt if Pre-K makes much difference for middle class children who already know most of the things taught in Pre-K. The main benefit I think my son gained from Pre-K was learning to operate in a large group with a diverse group of children.

I think Pre-K has its place in education, and I think it really does help a large number of children. I would rather see children of working mothers in an accredited Pre-K program, one that has the goal of readying children for Kindegarten, than spending days in front of televion sets at babysitters’ homes.

I agree with SET, that Pre-K is no replacement for stay-at-home moms, but we play the cards we are dealt.

By alphamama

May 30, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

Yes, the best option is to have preschoolers at home with an educated, involved, invested parent. However, that is not an option for many people and, particularly for those children who don’t have educated, involved parents, structured preschool can make a tremendous difference.

One difference is that the public school pre-K classes are often mixed socio-economically, and all the students benefit from the involvement of parents in the classroom as well as the developmentally appropriate structure established by the classroom teacher and her paraprofessional.

If you believe no studies have identified long-term effects of preschool intervention, maybe you should read a little further. There was another study in the past couple of years which reflected the same findings as this published in February of this year: “results indicate that the benefit–cost ratio for the preschool program offered by the Child–Parent Centers ranges from $5.98–$10.15… strong evidence that the consistently positive economic returns of high-quality preschool programs exceed most other educational interventions, especially those that begin during the school-age years such as reduced class sizes in the elementary grades, grade retention, and youth job training.” Temple, Temple, Judy A. and Arthur J. Reynolds. “Benefits and costs of investments in preschool education: Evidence from the Child–Parent Centers and related programs,” Economics of Education Review, Feb2007, Vol. 26 Issue 1, p126-144.

I agree with your hypothesis that the effect of preschool intervention may decline without other changes in the student’s out-of-school environment. However, these studies indicate that in the very long term, preschool education is where we may get the biggest bang for our tax dollars.

By teach overseas

May 30, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

Pre K is probably at best beneficial for those children that come from deprived homes. Not really to learn academic material, but to learn basic school social behavior- how to stand in line, raise your hand, or sit on the carpet for circle time.

But anyone who wants real academic material in pre-K is just the over hyper helicopter parent who wants their child to have a “leg up” and see other children primarily as competition for their precious.

As others have said, there is no lasting effect of pre-K. Ask any middle or high school teacher if they can guess who went to pre-K or not. Most of us would be basing our guesses on the kind of parent the kid has… not the kid him/herself.

By jim d

May 30, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

pre k, she k,

If you are gonna have them then raise them! Nothing is gained in public pre-k that couldn’t be gained at home-k if a parent will just take the time to do it. Mine was reading at 3rd grade level when he started at very young 5.

That learned skill helped him land in the gifted program that really did afford him some decent opportunities.

So folks, you want your kid to really get a head start—give up the job and keep a parent at home to raise the kid, It is a damned great investment in their future—don’t pak them up and send them off to some bogus pre-k to play—spend the time, you only get the one shot. Make it count.

By jim d

May 30, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

TOS,

basic school social behavior- how to stand in line, raise your hand, or sit on the carpet for circle time”

Yep there’s a few I wanted my kid to learn. (NOT!) How bout parents just teaching the little urchins some manners? Worked for me although mine wasn’t a line stander or a circle setter (a bit independent I guess). He did know how to raise his hand though.

By Ernest

May 30, 2007 4:05 PM | Link to this

Well said, alphamama! JimD, you are also right on target however we must deal with the reality that many children are born/raised in households with one parent. I’m sure some ‘save’ money by having their child in Pre-K and gaining valuable exposure.

I’m glad Pre-K is an option that is available in our state! Anytime a choice is available, it’s a good thing.

By Lisa B.

May 30, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this

Jim D., I agree that having one parent stay home is best. I was lucky enough to stay home with my son for a couple of years, then took some education classes during his 3rd year and enrolled him in Pre-K my first year teaching. Had my husband and I divorced for some reason, or had my husband died, become disabled, unemployed, whatever, I would not have been able to take that much time off work. Luckily, my husband and I are in good health, gainfully employed, and happily married for many years. Things don’t always work out that well for people.

My son has always been an advanced reader and an excellent student. He does have manners, but hasn’t ever been much of a line walker. Frankly, I don’t value that skill myself or enforce it strictly with my own students. I have other, far more import procedures which absolutely must be followed. I think Pre-K does teach important social skills, such as taking turns, not interrupting when others are speaking, keeping one’s hands and feet to themselves, respect of other peoples’ property, etc. Believe it or not, some kids don’t learn those things at home, and children who don’t have those skills tend to have lots of problems in school.

By Lisa B.

May 30, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

In fact, I daresay, much of a Pre-K teacher’s job entails teaching children how to follow rules and procedures. Some kids don’t learn this at home. Society is not kind to people who don’t follow rules (i.e. laws, later).

By Dekalb Educator (no longer)

May 30, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this

I have taught 4th grade, PreK, and 2nd grade at the same school (respectively). While I enjoyed my days in PreK, those are the yrs that I were given the most grief. I had too many people to try and please. I had to listen to my principal, the PreK supervisor, and the state (OSR).

I was written up for giving HOMEWORK..I was cited for being “too” structured and sent to another school to observe another PreK teacher..(SIGH)

I was told by OSR that I was “socializing them”..getting them ready for kindergarten and if a child doesnt want to do XYZ..dont worry about it.

My thing is..I DID worry about it. I didnt want students in my room all day to play, eat, and sleep. I wanted to expose them to as much as possible and if they got it..I put more out there. I was even told that I shouldnt worry about telling time (they would get that in kindergarten also)

Honestly, I dont really know if it is worth it. I guess it depends on site of the PreK program. My experience was just horrible as I was told many times..to just let them be..(mind you, these were the lowest of the low children)

By HB

May 30, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this

Jim d, while I think you are correct that parents should teach their kids at home, I disagree that it’s necessary to have a stay-at-home parent to do so. My cousins and I grew up in lower middle-class homes, and keeping a parent at home wasn’t a viable option. Their mom and dad both worked. I was raised by my single working mom.

We had the best of both worlds. We all benefitted from daycare and pre-K, learning to make friends and interact with larger groups of kids before starting kindergarten. Being an only child used to interacting primarily with adults (or with just 1 or 2 friends at a time on “play dates”), I think that was probably especially good for me. Our parents and grandparents taught us a great deal at home too, though, and I could read, write, do basic math, etc. before starting pre-K. All 3 of us were good students K-12, and I think the combination of home and pre-K experiences got us off to great starts.

So I agree with Ernest — having choices available is a great thing!

By luvs2teach

May 30, 2007 5:26 PM | Link to this

Personally, I can’t say how much of an impact attending pre-K had on my son - my son attended (first year it was offered); my older daughter did not (wasn’t available), and there really hasn’t been much of a difference in their later education.

Of course, they both grew up in a family of college-educated parents and grandparents, all of whom valued education. It was never “IF you go to college…” it was “WHEN…”

We talked about politics and took them to the zoo - we read them books and planted gardens. We gave them experiences that many parents from lower socio-economic families are unable to or simply don’t provide for their kids - and that’s where pre-k probably has its value.

I think in the future, we may start seeing more studies that show it DOES have a positive effect. The reason I think this is the skewing downward of academic skills towards kindergarten. Once, kindergarten was about learning your letters and how to sit in a circle - now it’s much more academic. If you don’t come in prepared from either paretns or pre-k, you are going to be behind - and who knows how long that effect will last.

By Lisa B.

May 30, 2007 5:31 PM | Link to this

DeKalb Educator,

I salute you! I could never, never teach Pre-K. 4th grade is the lowest I’ll go. Someone once said in a meeting that high school teachers teach subjects, while primary school teachers teach children. Grades 4-8 are a combination of both. I like the combination.

Have you retired? I still have 20 years to go, though the first 10 sure flew by! I started late and doubt I’ll make 30, but I hope to be close.

HB, I have seen some single mothers do fantanstic jobs of raising their children. In my first year teaching, I had the youngest of five brothers in my class. The boy’s mother was single, but determined that all five boys would graduate from college. To date, all the older brothers have graduated with four-year degrees or higher, and my former student is in Engineering school at Georgia Tech.

It is best not to lump people into categories and decide their success or failure. People will surprise us.

By Dekalb Educator (no longer)

May 30, 2007 5:56 PM | Link to this

Lisa B.—I have not retired (20 more yrs to go)

I did NOT renew my contract with Dekalb County. I put in for a transfer but when I saw how early Dekalb wanted their contracts back..I decided not to sign mine. I HAD to get away from my principal. There was no way I could work with someone that I found difficult saying good morning to. I decided to step out on faith and try other systems. If I decide to stay with Dekalb, I have to wait until the current positions that are still open in my school to be filled before I could be considered for other schools in the county. I was told by HR that I would be in the last pool of people to be considered since I would be a rehire..

By Lisa B.

May 31, 2007 9:04 AM | Link to this

DeKalb Ed., Good luck to you. I am not in the metro area, but I recall that all the systems there seem to do massive hiring each year. That’s actually true pretty much around the state these days.

I, too, have 20 years to go :-) We’re getting a new principal this coming year, and I hope that works out for us. The wrong principal can make life miserable.

By jim d

May 31, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this

Lisa,

PLEASE don’t get me started again on teachers and their working conditions. :o)

By teach overseas

May 31, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this

jim D-

We can all plainly see that your job conditions are cushy as you appear to have endless time to patrol this blog.

By mum

May 31, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

Deklab Educator No Longer:

I know someone just like you who left the system because of having to teach to the lowest common denominator, and short changing the kids who were above average. Good Luck! The Administrators have no idea what they are doing to the educational system by dumbing down everyone.

By luvs2teach

May 31, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

jim d - I think the reason you have a hard time drumming up support for your “solution” to our problems is that we don’t all have it that bad.

True - many on here have posted about needing to pay a mortgage and feed their families and not give up on a career that they love. Also true - there is an undercurrent of fear of retaliation due to this being a right to work state and no union protection for teachers (as state employees).

But I think you fail to see that we DO have some options - changing schools and/or changing districts. It’s no different than an accountant or an office clerk changing jobs to a new company. You wouldn’t tell an office clerk with the boss from Hades to organize fellow office workers - you’d tell him or her to get a new job at a better place.

As parents know, all schools are not created equal for their students - the same is true for teachers. I’m not trying to put on the rose-colored glasses here (as nothing is perfect), but I think you overestimate the dissatisfaction most of us have with our careers and job locations.

By Lisa B.

May 31, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

On another topic, since we don’t have a new one yet….

I spoke to a friend earlier today whose daughter wasn’t allowed to graduate because she missed passing the Science part of the graduation test by a couple of points the last time she took it. The family had already purchased the graduation package, announcements, etc. That happened to my nephew a couple of years ago. It seems unfair that a student who passes all subjects, all end-of-course tests, and fulfills all requirments to graduate is not allowed to walk with their class at graduation. In my friend’s daughter’s case, the girl was such a nervous wreck about passing the test, I’m sure her performance was impacted. That happened with my nephew as well. When he retook the test that summer, the pressure was off. He’d already missed graduation. He passed the test by a large margin. My friend and some other parents have hired a lawyer to check into the legality of what happened to their kids.

Is the policy the same across the state?

By jim d

May 31, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

L2T,

Oh I agree that teachers don’t relly have it that bad as a group. I’ve also concluded that even those that don’t,—enjoy complaining about it. Seems it may just be the nature of the beast.

I suppose I may just tire of hearing the same ol same ol and not seeing any actions to correct the injustices. But nuff said.

Lisa—-Ditto Gwinnett.

By Jeff

May 31, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

Lisa:

State law says if you don’t pass the test, you don’t graduate. Science is the EASIEST of the tests… I should know, science is my weak area!! Math was MUCH harder for me… and I became a math teacher!

By jim d

May 31, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

TOS,

I find it rather amusing that someone being paid with tax dollars to blog would have anything to say about how I spend my time when I’m paying myself.

Ya gotta admit that’s some pretty funny stuff!

By Ernest

May 31, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

Lisa B., for the scenario you described, what would you offer as an alternative? It would be easy to argue that the young lady did not fulfill all requirements because she did not pass the Science test.

I recall years ago GA administered the ‘Rising Junior’ test to college juniors. They may still offer this some form now but it was a writing test that one had to pass to graduate from college. I knew several college students that passed all their college courses but because they did not pass this test, were not allowed to march. Some might legitimately question the ‘rigor’ of the college, especially the ENGL courses if they could not pass a writing course.

By HB

May 31, 2007 1:21 PM | Link to this

Graduation is such an important event to seniors. I don’t think it’s right to deny them participation based on the graduation test alone if they fulfilled all curriculum requirements, passed end-of-course, etc. Is it even possible to really prep for that test other than successfully completing courses? Put an asterisk by their name to show “diploma pending” or whatever if you must, but not letting them walk with their class seems cruel to me.

I thought there was some sort of h.s. completion certificate kids got at graduation if they passed a certain number of courses, but failed the grad test or failed to complete a college prep or vocational track (basically it was given to the students who used to receive “general” diplomas). Does that still exist?

By teach overseas

May 31, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

well jim d-

You don’t need to worry your precious little head about it. Tax dollars do not pay my salary.

So go right ahead and laugh away.

Most of us do reading your posts anyway

By catlady

May 31, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

Our school system refuses to hold back students who don’t pass the CRCT in 3rd or 5th. They refuse to let parents who WANT their children held back because of years of poor work, not passing the CRCT (3rd, 4th, or 5th) hold them back. Could anyone comment on this, especially the legality of not allowing the parents discretion? Do other school systems not follow state law on this? I know there are exceptions, but how can there be 50 or more exceptions out of 50 or more failures? In the last 2 years we have not held anyone back, even with a total of well over 50 failures in 3rd and 5th a year, whether they go to summer school or not.

By catlady

May 31, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

Folks, one thing that has distinguished this blog from others, such as “Thinking Right”, is the civil tone the bloggers have employed, even when real differences in opinion or experience separate us. Please, think what you want (“that dummy”), or dispute as you see fit(“that has not been my experience, but here is what I have seen”), but do not cast catty aspersions on the others responding. We just don’t need more incivility than we already have in this country! It helps if, even if you don’t agree, you make an effort to see both sides of an issue, if for no other reason than to construct your counter-argument.

By SET

May 31, 2007 1:46 PM | Link to this

Lisa B:

Yes, in CA and in many other places Children who can’t pass the 8th grade level state test are barred from high school graduation ceremonies and get no diploma. Why would anyone seriously debate that this is “unfair”? Such children are not fit to be called High School Graduates.

The reason these tests have been put in place is to reverse the depreciation of the HS Diploma - which has come to be nearly meaningless. And I’m not buying for a minute that anyone was “surprised” by the failure. In CA most of the white students are passing the thing by 9th or 10th grade. Remember, here the pass level has been lowered to 8th grade level performance - it was once set at 10th grade but when the polititians realized that a large majority of the black students would never pass at that setting the bar was lowered to a more politically correct 8th grade level.

Since the test is taken at the beginning of high school and only has to be passed once, anyone in trouble and their Mamas know full well they are coming in at childish levels and their families had better get a return policy on the graduation party favors.

This test is just one more thing we are doing in CA to try to shore up our disgraceful secondary schools. By artifically creating an atmosphere of crisis maybe the dummy students will show up for class and do their assignments for fear of the state testing. As an added side benefit, some failing students give up early and just leave the schools - leaving the teachers and students free of dealing with them.

I support raising the pass level at least to 9th grade reading and writing. I support extended school classes for those who can’t pass by 9th grade. I also support corporal punishment in schools but that’s another topic.

In order to survive what’s happening to this country these students need every bit of basic reading and writing skills possible - and that’s what the test is, BASIC functionality. Setting up dire consequences at age 18 is one of the ways we try to keep these kids working.

The smart kids don’t need the test or the schools. They will always be OK. They could teach themselves on the Internet. The whole point of this toughlove approach is to help the marginal kids prepare themselves for what is to come once they turn 18 and are turned out into this Brave New World.

By Zoe

May 31, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

HB- there is a GHSGT waiver in place regarding EOCT scores. If a student has attended every GHSGT review class offered at the school, taken the GHSGT test all 5 times (on time), has school attendance of 90 something percent (not sure of exact number) has a score within a specific number of points of 500 (passing) AND has passed both EOCTs in the subject area of trouble, that student can apply for a waiver. Problem is kids can fail the EOCT (and they do in massive numbers at the lower socioeconomic schools) and still pass the class. It is not pass/fail, it is 15% of the grade. If a kid can’t pass the GHSGT, that kid doesn’t deserve a diploma- end of story. Too many kids “hope and pray” or think they can cheat their way to a 500. But, it doesn’t happen and then mama is crying in the guidance office about how her baby deserves to graduate. But, for 4 years before, that parent’s phone was disconnected every time a teacher called home.

By Lisa B.

May 31, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

Our state school board member told us at a meeting that the plan was to substitute End of Course Tests for the High School Graduation Test. It seems expensive and redundent to have both. I think we’ll eventually get rid of the HSGT, but in the meantime, the kids just have to hop through the hoops.

By Jeff

May 31, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

Zoe gets a margarita and a big AMEN!!!

By Zoe

May 31, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

I went and found the real info on the DOE website- Waiver is Special Ed, Variance is for regular ed.
State Board Decisions for Variances The State Board of Education may by a majority vote grant a variance to you if you satisfy each of the following requirements:

1.) You have passed at least three out of five sections of the GHSGT and/or GHSWT; 2) You have met the attendance and course unit requirements for graduation, as described in the applicable High School Graduation rule; 3) You have a 90% or better attendance record, excluding excused absences, while enrolled in grades 9-12; 4) You have obtained a scale score that falls within one standard error of measurement (SEM) for passing the relevant section of the GHSGT/GHSWT; 5) Where applicable, you have successfully passed each related End-of- Course Test(s) (EOCT) for the sections of the GHSGT in which the variance is being sought;

By SET

May 31, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this

Zoe: If the phone wasn’t disconnected, they were screening their calls with Caller ID and let the school’s calls go into voice mail… which they ignored..

Is there a way the public schools can “save” kids from their parents? Generally not. Any overt action to let the kid know that he/she is expected to be better than their loser parents is not appreciated by administration. This is not how things used to be. Public Schools used to include in their mission statement that they were to raise the students to a higher (social? economic?)level than they came from. And they did, too.

By high school teacher

May 31, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this

This year we had over 40 8th graders who failed the CRCT and therefore were “placed” into the 9th grade. I taught some of these students. Guess what? They failed the EOCT miserably - not just a few points, but in the 50’s. I personally think that we are setting kids up for failure when we throw them into an environment that they aren’t prepared for.

Jeff, the science and ss parts of the GHSGT always have the lowest pass rate percentages, statewide. Science might have been easiest for you, but most kids see that as their hardest test. Perception plays into the performance a great deal, IMO.

Back on topic… if schools are going to stop offering Pre-K, then they need to revert to the older kindergarten curriculum. My son just finished kindergarten; it is now what first grade used to be. He had homework and everything!

In our system (don’t know about others), students are given an entry test into kindergarten (either the Brigance or the Bergance test; I don’t know the spelling). Kids in the school’s Pre-K generally score anywhere from an 85-100 on the test. Kids who come from private pre-k, daycare, and from home generally score in the 40-60 range. If kids score poorly on this test, they are placed in a special kindergarten class aimed at improving their skills. So I think that pre-k is important for all kids.

By Jeff

May 31, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this

HST:

I didn’t say Science was the EASIEST - SS was, by FAR, so I TRULY don’t understand its low pass rate - just that it wasn’t hard to pass it, even with my LIMITED knowledge of science.

Social Studies? I could teach it better than quite a few SS teachers I know! (I still debate myself over which I am better in - SS or Math. SS typically wins only because I can’t always discuss high level math with PhD’s, but I haven’t met a SS related PhD yet that I can’t carry on an intelligent conversation in their specialty area.)

By Sherie Jackson

May 31, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

Can we have a topic on the graduation tests/commencement exercise issue?

By HB

May 31, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

Zoe, thanks for the info on waivers/variances. I don’t think graduation should ride entirely on the one test, but the variance policies sound very fair to me, allowing for a little wiggle room for students to prove themselves through grades, end of course tests, repeated good faith efforts at the grad test, and attendance.

My only concern would be with the variance policy requirement that the state board must vote on each individual petition? That’s fine, but would students know long enough in advance of their 5th test scores to get through the process and walk? If not, but it is clear that a student meets the requirements and just has to wait for the next board meeting, then I think the school should allow that student to walk with his class (they don’t have to award a diploma at that time).

Lisa B, I actually was surprised to learn the the grad test is still around. I thought that it was supposed to have been phased out by now and replaced entirely by end of course tests.

By Sherie Jackson

May 31, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this

HB,

I had also heard the graduation tests were to be phased out. If this is true, why punish this year’s group of students by not allowing them to participate in the graduation exercises? This is not a state rule, but one put in place by the counties who enacted this policy.

I have a nephew who was not allowed to walk with his class because he failed the science graduation test by 3 points on his 4th try. He has passed all of the other grad tests, all of his EOCTs, has always had As and Bs, great attendance and was never ever a discipline problem. The entire episode was heart wrenching for him and the rest of our family. His mom paid to have a tutor for the last year (one suggested by the school system) to come and help him “study” for the test for the last six months and study they did - twice per week, every week. He just could not pass this test no matter how hard he tried. He is going back this summer, but will his heart truly be in it? I’m sure with this child, he will do his best, but the moment for his glory has passed.

Now both Mom and son are stuck with tons of graduation announcements,a uselsess graduation cap and gown etc. and nuch heartbreak.

How did this happen? Was this really fair?

By luvs2teach

May 31, 2007 4:19 PM | Link to this

jim d - I have said before that I think, after baseball, complaining is America’s pasttime - and the blogosphere has just given us all a forum! One can find sites to complain about virtually any profession, hobby, or experience on the internet - I’m sure you can even find a site to complain about the internet itself, LOL.

catlady - I feel your pain - of the 40 or so 8th graders (about 13 were mine)that did not pass the CRCT, I am sure, regardless of how they perform this summer, most will be sitting in Freshmen classrooms come August. Of those that failed, there were no surprises - kids who were out 3 out of 5 days per week - kids that spent more time in ISS than in a classroom - kids whose parents never had a working number or never made their presence known about school.

How many of you have had parents who think “No Child Left Behind” think that means you can’t hold their child back?

On the plus side, the high school is putting programs into place to help those targeted by the tests as “less than successful in the traditional classroom” - how’s that for an euphemism?

I’m beginning to think that tradtional retention isn’t the answer for those kids anyway - time to think outside the box for a solution there.

As far as the GHSGT, I think we need to have a standard, but I’m not sure why we have both EOCTs and GHSGTs - not to mention the college bound kids taking the ACTs, SATs, and those that take the AP tests. There should be some trimming and streamlining, IMHO. Pass the AP Lit& Comp test? Exempt the ELA GHSGT, for example.

Don’t they take the GHSGT in their junior year? And can take it again if they fail? At some point, it’s surely not a surprise that graduation may be impacted. A part of me feels badly, but then there is the part of me that sees these kids who would rather text message than take notes, and worry about their clothes rather than their homework, and that sympathy dissipates pretty quickly.

Jeff - you are an enigma wrapped in a twinkie, LOL - you are probably the ONLY person who thought the science test was the EASIEST (and yes, that is what you said - go reread your original post). Most people consider it to be the hardest, and it has the lowest pass rate.

My personal opinion is that its problems come from three sources. One, there are badly written questions, with poor quality answers - based on scientific misconceptions. Maybe they’ve fixed those, but I don’t think so.

Two, the questions are often application questions - they require the student to know something, but then to also apply that knowledge. They often include data tables and charts, and the students need to infer the answers from those. I have found with my own students that they have a lot of problems answering those types of questions…which leads me to reason 3…

Three, we don’t teach science as application - we teach science as a collection of vocabulary words and facts. We don’t have time for proper labs or proper analysis - it’s all about the easy answer.

By rippingoffgifted

May 31, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this

I agree with luvstoteach. If a kid can pass the AP in a subject, seems pretty silly to require them to pass the GHSGT in the same subject.

In fact, kids who even qualify to be in AP classes and have aced the PSAT or SAT should be exempt from all of this garbage if they have a good GPA. I was appalled when I saw the testing schedule posted on the kiosk outside our local high school. The entire month of May was devoted to testing… the WHOLE MONTH devoted to bubble sheets.

Of course the minute you start exempting kids who could obviously pass these tests with their eyes closed… you will have Jesse Jackson and Cynthia McKinney down here screaming that someone’s rights have been violated.

So, when is the legislature going to wake up and allow gifted vouchers along with special ed so that we can get our kids out of these cesspools and into a place where they can do something other than fill in bubble sheets. The future of our country depends on gifted children reaching their potential.

By Tony

May 31, 2007 5:43 PM | Link to this

Catlady-The law is very clear about students’ retention for not passing the CRCT at 3rd, 5th and 8th grade. After retaking the test, if students do not pass the parent of the teacher can call for a meeting. At the meeting, the parent or teacher may ask for promotion but all three committee members - parent, teacher and principal - must agree to promote the child. I would suggest you review your local school system’s policy for retention and the State Board of Education’s policy.

By Jeff

May 31, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

l2t:

Never really thought of the science questions as application… hmm… application (in that field anyway) is mostly logic… one of the few good things about AS is that an AS person’s logic skills (at least as far as text book type knowledge) typically are almost off the charts… would make sense in that respect that I found Science so easy.

At the same time, after having trying to teach logic to MS/HS level kids… I can ALSO understand why they have such a hard time!!!

By luvs2teach

May 31, 2007 6:14 PM | Link to this

Jeff - I have no doubt that the logic skills you possess made a difference for you.

Of course you would’ve taken the tests about 5 or 6 years ago (am I right?), and the push recently has definitely been towards application (for both the CRCT and the GHSGT) and away from the rote memorization, trivia-type question.

You also probably have no problem with looking at graphs, charts, and data tables (I’m guessing you use flowcharts in programming - I know I did in my BASIC classes a million years ago; PASCAL, too). My kids see a graph or table and I can almost see their eyes glaze over…a large part of my test prep practice consists of reading and interpreting visual representations of data. For my kids, that’s half the battle.

By thomas

June 1, 2007 8:29 AM | Link to this

They have RARELY held back any students who failed the CRCT- regardless of the school system.

In fact, few students are retained period. The most retentions I do see are in the early grades (first grade, etc.) and happen to students whose parents let it happen. RETAINING A STUDENT REQUIRES BACKBONE. MOST PRINCIPALS AND SCHOOL SYSTEMS HAVE NO BACKBONE WHEN IT COMES TO MATTERS LIKE THIS. THIS INCLUDES ANY RULE OR REGULATION THAT MIGHT INVOLVE “PARENT INVOLVEMENT”- DISCIPLINE, GRADES, CLASS PLACEMENT, ETC.

Georgia Legislature passes law that says students must pass CRCT in 3rd and 5th grade to be promoted. Weak kneed school systems make a puddle on the floor and refuse to obey law.

For the past two years I have had “third graders” put into my fourth grade class. They failed the CRCT in third grade TWICE (once during the regular test administration and again in summer school). Then they failed the CRCT in fourth grade as well. The actual paperwork on class rosters, AR reports, etc, lists the students as grade “03”, then after around October/November, everything magically changes to “04”. This happened in two different school systems.

By high school teacher

June 1, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this

Same thing happened with me, Thomas, in high school. The 9th graders I had who had failed the CRCT were listed as 8th graders on the rosters.

However, I agree with an earlier comment (don’t remember who said it) that retention isn’t the right answer either. I had a freshman this year who was 16 when he started high school. He had been held back twice in grades 1-8. He also failed the CRCT, was placed into 9th grade, and also failed the EOCT. He was not a special ed student.

What we need is a true alternative school for kids in this position. They need to be taken out of the traditional setting because it obviously isn’t working for them! Keep them in this alternative setting until they can master the grade appropriate skills and re-join their class at the correct grade level.

Of course, if Georgia instituted a school of this sort, then we would be admitting that we might have a problem…

By jim d

June 1, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this

TOS,

Thank you!

I’m happy I can bring a smile to your face on a regular basis.

By thomas

June 1, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this

Here is something else to think about- THE CORRELATION BETWEEN READING INSTRUCTION IN THE EARLY GRADES AND LONG TERM ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT.

I have found that the whole language movement has destroyed MILLIONS and MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people. To this day that poison has still infected colleges of education, school systems, and teachers. Only sinister puke by Gay Su Pinnell, Irene Fountas, and the like, are taught by the colleges of education (both at the undergraduate and graduate levels). All people know is this “whole language”, “balanced literacy”, “reader’s workshop”, “writer’s workshop”, “four blocks”, etc nonsense. Reading Recovery (another whole language based “remediation” program) is garbage as well. Do the research!!!!!

Don’t get me wrong- there are some good things you could use from each of these programs. BUT EVERY SINGLE, SOLITARY CHILD NEEDS PHONEMIC AWARENESS AND PHONICS. IF A CHILD CANNOT DECODE, HOW CAN THEY READ????

Personally, I think that so many teachers like whole language (besides the fact that that is all they were taught in ed school and exposed to through school system inservices) is that whole language allows them to do whatever the h_ll they want to do. When you teach linguistics the correct way- there are rules you have to follow. There are specific rules for English phonology. There are specific rules for English semantics and morphology. You cannot do what ya like, when ya like.

More importantly, you have to actually teach the children using traditional methods of instruction. You can’t sit on your butt and BS!!!! You can’t put the kids in “groups” and expect good quality instruction to occur. You can’t make the kids sit “on the carpet”, listen to you read, ask them stupid a__ questions about a book with predictable text and expect them to learn how to read.

WHOLE LANGUAGE IS KILLING OUR CHILDREN!!!!!! STOP IT!!!!!

By Zoe

June 1, 2007 9:56 AM | Link to this

AP test scores come back in July- long after EOCT scores.

GHSGT is what is used for NCLB and AYP for high schools. They were phasing out GHSGT for the EOCT when NCLB hit and they were kept for AYP purposes. Originally kid had to pass the EOCT to pass the class, but that was changed to just 15% of grade.

For the poster that commented about achievement in schools with money- all systems get the same amount per kid from the state, local systems make up the difference. Even within school districts (North/South Fulton for examle) parents make up the difference there. Why are you blaming parents for being willing to provide for their children? Just because a school has less, it should not be taking from the school that makes up the difference. Otherwise you are looking at communism. Read “Atlas Shrugged” and start asking “Who is John Galt?”

By luvs2teach

June 1, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

Even if AP scores come back in July, many students start taking AP their junior years - some even sophomore! Perhaps this could be an incentive for those who want to accelerate their progress through high school - who knows, just throwing that thought out there.

From what I understand, states are allowed to set their NCLB AYP criteria - why, if GA was phasing out the GHSGT in favor of the EOCT, did they keep it as part of their criteria? Why not the EOCT, then - and if they must keep the GHSGT for NCLB, then why not phase out the EOCT?

Who’s making money from all this testing? Who has their fingers in this particular slice of pie?

And on the note of criteria - why, oh why would any system make attendance a second indicator if they didn’t have to? Something that is so obviously controlled by the parents, and not the teachers or the school?

By decaturparent

June 1, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

Thomas -

You are wrong about whole language. What is needed is a balanced approach. Some kids do need more phonics. Some kids (like mine) respond much better to whole language. If the kindergartens in our district started down the “only phonics - direct instruction” road, about half the families would pull their kids in a heartbeat.

Whole language isn’t killing anyone. Teachers have to teach to a huge range of abilities and interests. If you try to do nothing but drill phonics into a kid who arrives at kindergarten already reading or into a high IQ kid who can pick up reading very quickly, you will make that child hate school and hate reading.

Conversely, if you use only whole language to try to teach a child who has trouble learning to read and who was never exposed to the idea that letters make words and words make sentences before kindergarten - that child will be totally lost.

A teacher needs both methods in her (or his) arsenal to teach everyone appropriately. A good curriculum uses both. A good teacher knows who needs more phonics and who will respond better to whole language.

Now…. stop the hysteria… OK!

By Ernest

June 1, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this

You raise good points, decaturparent. We should want teachers to have a variety of instructional options available and ‘empower’ them to make the choice as to which ones to use based on the students they actually have. As we’ve all said many times over in different ways, each child is unique in how they learn and grasp concepts. It’s great when a teaching style matches the learning style.

I recall hearing much of the ‘anti whole language’ concerns when teachers were NOT allowed to choose and we told to only use this method. I heard stories of teachers teaching phonics while they were not being observed because they knew whole language was not working for some students.

By agnes

June 1, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

This blog must be the ugly step child of the AJC blogosphere! No one there pays attention! Not even to post a new topic and certainly, there is no participation/response by the reporter as there was in the past! When the H_ is Bridgette coming back???

By jim d

June 1, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this

Decatur parent,

I couldn’t agree more. But it is not just in reading!

We have at least one administrator in the GCPS system that puts it this way.

“If the children don’t learn the way we teach, then we must teach the way the children learn.”

It’s a real shame not everyone is of the same mind.

By Jeff

June 1, 2007 1:02 PM | Link to this

jim:

That’s PC hogwash. And the exact reason our system is FAILING.

You teach the way you teach and demand that students adapt to you. The very act of adapting teaches them FAR more than they could learn in even the BEST teacher’s classroom.

Unfortunately, this “me”-centric philosophy is so pervasive that it will take a MASSIVE catastrophe to change it.

By thomas

June 1, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

But what you see guys, is systems like Cobb, who forced Balanced Literacy, Whole Language, America’s Choice, Four Blocks, etc. down the throats of all teachers and students, regardless of grade level or student need/ability. Kindergarten ELL students aren’t being taught phonemic awareness and phonics. Low income children aren’t being taught phonemic awareness and phonics. Instead teachers are drawing and coloring on poster paper and speaking in tongues.

However, on the other hand, systems like Atlanta and Clayton, ram Success For All and Direct Instruction (“scripted” reading programs) down the throats of all children. There should be a balance and teachers should have flexibility.

I say again-MODERN TEACHING METHODS OF READING HAVE RUINED MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF CHILDREN. These so-called “progressive” strategies and gimmicks don’t teach children to read.

Let me say this so that everyone understands:

It’s one thing to have a kindergartener from a middle class home where mommy and daddy have already taught/groomed the child for success in school and teach at home what the child doesn’t get from school. It’s quite another to have a kindergartener whose parent(s) does not play teacher at home. Not all parents teach their children at home. This includes social, as well as academic, skills.

Many children from the lowest areas don’t come to school knowing how to read. They don’t get the reinforcement and support from home. Those children need the basics. Drawing and coloring doesn’t work for everybody.

YES- You can get into metacognitive strategies, text to self connections, guessing games, your opinion, etc. and all that— AFTER YOU LEARN TO READ.

I will say it again and again and again- WE DESIGN OUR CLASSROOMS AND INSTRUCTION TO LOOK GOOD- TO PUT ON SHOWS. WE DESIGN OUR CLASSROOMS AND INSTRUCTION TO LOOK GOOD- TO PUT ON SHOWS. WE DESIGN OUR CLASSROOMS AND INSTRUCTION TO LOOK GOOD- TO PUT ON SHOWS. WE DESIGN OUR CLASSROOMS AND INSTRUCTION TO LOOK GOOD- TO PUT ON SHOWS. WE DESIGN OUR CLASSROOMS AND INSTRUCTION TO LOOK GOOD- TO PUT ON SHOWS. WE DESIGN OUR CLASSROOMS AND INSTRUCTION TO LOOK GOOD- TO PUT ON SHOWS.

This is why teachers, particularly newer ones, get all into gimmicks and garbage- group work, small groups, writing on posters, playing with toys and “manipulatives”, all kinds of games, candy, sweets, tickets, snapping fingers, symbols and signals, catching phrases, “tickets out the door”, and on and on and on.

*BUT THE KIDS NEVER LEARN ANYTHING!!!! BUT THE KIDS NEVER LEARN ANYTHING!!!! BUT THE KIDS NEVER LEARN ANYTHING!!!! BUT THE KIDS NEVER LEARN ANYTHING!!!! BUT THE KIDS NEVER LEARN ANYTHING!!!! BUT THE KIDS NEVER LEARN ANYTHING!!!! BUT THE KIDS NEVER LEARN ANYTHING!!!! *

After what I have experienced this last school year in this sad and backward county, I have more sick and tired of the idiot teachers, stupid administrators, moron coordinators, and the d_ colleges of education, than the children and parents.

It’s not the children. It’s not the parents. It’s the our educational system. IT SUCKS!!!

I am homeschooling my children, at least up until middle school. Middle school is no better. Middle school is filled with even more morons, except this time, they are on a bigger power trip. That’s another that makes me so angry- teachers (at least a lot of the ones in this county) are so ARROGANT. The sad part is they are so INCOMPETENT. Many of them are lazy and sorry, too.

And because you try to rebut me, remember this- THESE WORDS ARE COMING FROM A CURRENT TEACHER WHO WORKED IN FIVE SCHOOLS, BOTH ELEMENTARY AND MIDDLE OVER MY CAREER. I KNOW WHAT GOES ON BEHIND THE SCENES. I KNOW WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE WORK HERE. I KNOW THINGS THAT MOST PARENTS WILL NEVER KNOW. It’s like working in a restaurant. There’s a reason why most people who work there don’t eat there.

By Thomas

June 1, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

Thomas-decaturparent is right - balanced approaches are most appropriate for teachers but it means the teacher has to do the work to teach the children. Pinnel, Fountas, Clay, Arrington and many others have given our teachers very good information about how to teach literacy. Your 1:31 post is hysterical, to say the least, and very inaccurate.

By catlady

June 1, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

No,no, no—we are all-powerful and Godlike. We MAKE THE CHILDREN SUCCESSFUL! remember. Which means after teachers try different instructional and evaluation styles, we are made to dumb it down so a fifth grader working on 2nd grade level (who has failed the CRCT over and over, been in every EIP and intervention class there is) is given a task so easy my DOG (admittedly a bright Golden Retriever) can do it, and when the child does it we count it as “success” and their report card grade reflects an A or B. Mom and Dad, however, cannot understand that because they have an a or b, why the H3Ll their child has failed the CRCT yet again! You teachers aren’t doing your job! They don’t realize that their child is years, maybe lightyears, below grade level. And we merrily pass them on to middle school.

Our school “invites” kids to summer school (16 half days this year to work miracles) based on CRCT scores. If the child goes to summer school and retakes the test they are guaranteed to go on to the next grade, pass or not. (Of course, most have passing report card grades because of the dumbing down mentioned above). If they don’t go to summer school they are TOLD they will be retained BUT THEY NEVER ARE! In fact, our principal has told 2 parents in the last 2 weeks who WANT to hold back their children in 5th grade due to years of failing CRCT, not being able to read, etc., that IT HAS ALREADY BEEN DECIDED THAT THEY WILL GO ON, and the parents have NO say-so in the matter. Fortunately, I disabused both of the parents of THAT lie.

Why doesn’t the state do an audit to deterimine why these kids who failed the CRCT keep showing up in the next grade???? Looks like the state would want to know why a system has a zero percent retention rate in K-5 and yet has 25-30% of the students fail the CRCT miserably. Does anyone pay attention? It’s sort of like those faked non-incidence reports. Hello? Is anyone home in the state DOE? Surely SOMEONE has suspicions about this, or are they so divorced from reality?

In our case it is exacerbated by an incompetent psychometrist who NEVER tests a kid into sp ed correctly, never tests a kid within the time guidelines set by the state in direct contradiction to the LAW, and yet is allowed to retain his job year after year.

Then we have the new changes in SST, the tiers, so that you keep meeting and dumbing down the expectations until you can declare a kid successful, at which point they get moved out of SST, or you’ll have to meet again after you have dumbed it down some more. The goal isn’t to help the kid, it is to make them (and the school) APPEAR to be successful. We declare victory and go home. And then we moan and btch about our dropout rate!

And then we have administrators who, I am convinced, are BOUGHT OFF and force adoption of things that don’t work—the cure de jour like Reading First and Max Thompson and Singapore Math and Calendar Math—things that the teachers are given a voice on (but their voices are ignored if it contradicts what the administrators have already decided.)

On the graduation test, my purely gut opinion: if the kids have taken the correct courses (no lump-lump math, etc) and passed the EOCTs there is no reason they shouldn’t pass the grad test. The problem is, in my opinion, to keep kids in school we give them one serving of meat, one vegetable, and 2 helpings of dessert (if they are on block) but we test them as though they had 2 meats and 2 vegetables for the classwork instead.

Thanks for the big chuckle on “No Child Left Behind” meaning no kid will be retained! Lol! I think our system believes that, too!

By jim d

June 1, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Sorry to say we part company on this one. All children do not learn the same way so indeed schools need to adapt to the needs of the students.

That being said, let’s not lose sight of who is the consumer and who is the provider in education.

You’re programming now, right?

Would you try to sell the same program to all of your customers regardless of their needs? I think not.

By Jeff

June 1, 2007 3:31 PM | Link to this

Jim:

Apples and oranges my friend.

The consumer of education is NOT the student. It is NOT the parent. It is the businesses that will one day hire these kids. And we are failing them. Businesses - and you should know this - are NOT going to adapt to how their employees want to behave. They are going to say “This is what we expect of you. Do it or you won’t work here anymore.” WHICH IS EXACTLY HOW EDUCATION SHOULD BE RUN

By SET

June 1, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

Jeff is right.

Schools are to prepare the students for industry, the military, or entrance to higher learning. It is the needs of those “consumers” that dictate what the students are to learn.

Students are not in school to have fun, to grow up, to get rehabed, to find themselves, to get self esteem, or any other reason.

Our public school systems have failed because they teach the kiddies it’s all about them.

And the world does not revolve around the needs or feelings of the individual students. The had better learn how to fit in somewhere that has direct deposit.

By 30YearsIn

June 1, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

My posting name says it all, and there is something to what thomas is saying. Somebody, somewhere is making money on the “cure du jour” and those systems (like Cobb, etc) will spend an awful lot of money of every new thing that comes out of California, etc.

I have seen a lot of changes in the children that I now serve compared to my early career. Heck, I even see a change compared to just 5 years ago! But the fact remains, we have to teach whatever comes through our classroom door. So, with children who now have no conversation or interaction with their parents so their vocabulary is lacking, or those who have no life experiences to draw upon, or even those who go home to an empty house until somebody arrives at 6 or 7 in the evening, we have to do the best we can for all circumstances. For some children, we are the only stability in their little lives. So, despite all this, many of us continue to do what I do… ignore the nonsense, close the classroom door, and do the best we can do to meet the needs of each child in our classroom.

I hope to be able to finish out one more year, and then I think I’m calling it quits. I’m tired of fighting the politicians and decision-makers who have no classroom experience or the little teaching experience they had was so long ago it is no longer relevant. It makes me feel sad, because I do truly still enjoy my kids, I’m just tired of the other “junk.”

By catlady

June 1, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

Re: jeff and jim’s debate—are you talking about the same thing? Seems like you are talking about teaching/learning styles vs. curriculum. Now, I will admit to the existence of the “hidden curriculum”, which I think SET is referring to. But I, as a teacher, if my students don’t match up to my teaching style, try to find other ways to present the information that makes sense to other learning styles. You are aware, I am sure, that a high percentage of teachers have a primary learning style that matches other teachers, and that we tend to teach in the same style that is most comfortable to our own learning style. That is why most classrooms are run quite similarly. But I have students who are auditory or kinesthetic learners, and sometimes I have to move out of my comfort zone in order to teach them. That is my job—to teach them. At the high school or college level, maybe it is okay to dump the hay and let them eat as they can and will, but with younger students I think it is incumbent on me to use many different approaches. If most classes were run for kinesthetic learners, I probably would not have graduated from high school!

I taught very special ed for a while, and I found myself thinking and even dreaming that if I just tried it one more way, if I was just smart enough or hardworking enough I could overcome my students’ retardation. Of course, it nearly drove me crazy because I never hit on anything that solved the problems they came with. But it seems like to me I have to care if if my regular ed students get it or not (within reason, no spoonfeeding allowed) and if they don’t, use all of me during our time together to help them get it. Not watered down curriculum, not babying them, but to really GET IT. So I go back and review what I have tried and who was left out (didn’t get it) and I try to come up with ways that make achieving the goal possible for those learners who don’t share my most comfortable way of teaching. I try to play to their strengths (learning styles), knowing that I need to help them develop their abilities to survive in classrooms where they will have to use a non-preferred style to learn.

By thomas

June 1, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

And then we have administrators who, I am convinced, are BOUGHT OFF and force adoption of things that don’t work—the cure de jour like Reading First and Max Thompson and Singapore Math and Calendar Math—things that the teachers are given a voice on (but their voices are ignored if it contradicts what the administrators have already decided.

That explains it all.

In Cobb, it’s balanced literacy/America’s Choice/Learning Focused (Max Thompson)/Everyday Math (Calendar Math), etc. In Clayton, it’s Direct Instruction/JP and Associates’ “Enhanced Lessons”/Kaplan/Mountain Math, etc. Atlanta City has Success For All (SFA).

Catlady is right. A lot of these things do come from the area offices. Some principals are “encouraged” to accept these initiatives. In addition, in many counties, PRINCIPALS ARE CONSTANTLY MOVED IN ORDER TO KEEP THEM FROM BECOMING ESTABLISHED AT A SCHOOL.

By holdingAJCaccountable

June 1, 2007 5:41 PM | Link to this

To Thomas (and his 1:31pm post)

Your post was 100% accurate! And I don’t blame you one damn bit for being angry! We should ALL be angry at how TOTALLY incompetent the public school system is, and how educrats will literally sell the future of our nation’s children up the river for the latest and greatest educational fad, in order that THEY can get paid.

Also, one MIGHT be surprised at just how swimmingly well we could do without these educrats if we restored discipline.

But obviously in our “creationist state” God has forsaken us, as He hasn’t allowed educrats to evolve a backbone.

Thomas, I feel your frustration. Don’t know what I can do about it, but I can at least acknowledge you are TOTALLY right!!!

By James

June 4, 2007 8:09 AM | Link to this

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/magazine/03kindergarten-t.html?ref=education

This seems extremely appropriate with respect to this blog.

By Lee

June 5, 2007 8:45 AM | Link to this

RE: “…let’s not lose sight of who is the consumer and who is the provider in education.”

That’s one of the core problems with public education, nobody knows.

As Jeff says, it’s certainly not the student or the parent. They are merely cogs in the machine. And while businesses may have a vested interest in the product of education, they are not really the customer.

The taxpayer is so far removed from the decision making process, they are no longer the customer (even though they are the ones paying the bills….)

So who is the customer? I guess you would have to say - society. Who is society? Why, everybody and everyone.

Thus the problem. Nobody is the customer and yet everybody is the customer. The schools are responsible to everyone, and yet, no one.

Contrast that to my daughter’s private school. There is no doubt who the customer is. I write the checks and if the school does not perform, I take my money and my daughter elsewhere.

Think about that the next time one of these bloggers writes about “REQUIRING the parents to do this or do that.”

By jim d

June 5, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

Not quite Lee,

Using your scenario— business is in fact the customer since they have the ability to sut off funding that they provide. And this is where we find we have a fine kettle of fish. Businesses providing a minimal amount of funding have more control than taxpayers who are funding the bulk of education.

Public schools partnering with businesses creates a real conflict of interest in my opinon. But hey—at least the schools have nice stadiums and gyms!

By Lee

June 5, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

“Public schools partnering with businesses…”

Not seeing that in our neck of the woods. Must be a Gwinnette thang….

By jim d

June 5, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this

Lee,

It is and it’s nothing more than the school system selling out to the local chamber of commerce. I find this rather disturbing to say the least.

I believe it is the schools job to educate, not to provide drones for the workplace.