Get Schooled

By carter

May 23, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

You gotta be kidding in government you seldom get what you pay for.You’ll be lucky if they don’t use their position to get rich,The ones who don’t didn’t get the chance, but they’ll keep waiting for the right opportunity.The pay has nothing to do with it. There are very few who are in it for the right reason. Yes the majority of them are greedy and power hungry.

By Larry

May 23, 2007 1:20 PM | Link to this

The answer depends on the school system, but Gwinnett has exactly the situation you described; it is a time consuming job and at less than $200 a week, the compensation hardly reflects it.

It isn’t that current board members will do things differently, but that most people aren’t in a financial position to run for office. The voters will make their own decisions concerning competent representation, but increasing the pay to a full time salary would greatly increase the number of possible candidates.

By Ernest

May 23, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

Some of the concerns I’ve heard is that the public was not made aware of the increases, as this was proposed by our state legislators. That said, this is supposedly a ‘part time’ job that have evolved into full time responsibilities. Citizens seem to want their school board members available 24/7. No board member is going to get rich by serving. Increase to the expenses are reasonable, especially considering the rising costs of gas.

By Lila

May 23, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this

We need to bring the salaries up enough to get some regular people on the board. With salaries so low, the only people who can afford to be a school board member are possibly (probably) in it for political reasons.

By jim d

May 23, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

So Larry,

Are you saying there is or is not enough money in Gwinnett to get you to run?

By jim d

May 23, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

Kristina,

Should it be higher in order to attract quality folk?

Here’s my take on that since I do not believe we are getting all we are paying for now.

Should we increase the pay I fear we might get what we are paying for, that would be more government, and based on what I’ve seen these “quality folk” do in the past, that just scares the hell out of me.

By yesiamworried

May 23, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

With the majority of the board in DeKalb— no way do we get what we pay for. Two of the members can hardly stay awake (or actually fall asleep). One can’t read a spreadsheet, most are uneducated…

The majority has low or no expectations of minority students, which is ironic since most are black. Many constantly excuse poor behavior of students and parents — mostly because they are desperate to keep their jobs.

By Kristina Torres

May 23, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this

jim d,

I might argue, playing devil’s advocate, that increased pay would attract a smart, studied board member who actually believes in less government (especially given that a board’s role is to set policy, not manage day-to-day operations).

Also, I’m curious — ah, OK, I’m egging you on :-) — why do you not believe we are getting all we are paying for now?

By Ernest

May 23, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this

Kristina, are you perhaps suggesting that board members may spend too much time meeting with citizens? I ask this kiddingly because one could argue you want a more engaged citizenry thus keeping them that way could mean meeting with them more often.

How much do we want to pay people to set policy for managing billion dollar budgets?

By Kristina Torres

May 23, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

Ernest,

A-ha! You ask the key question. How much is enough, or too much, given the size of our systems? (And how many of us remember when a $500 million operating budget seemed huge…:-))

Also, I probably should clarify: I don’t think less government equates to meeting less with citizens so much as it means less micro-managing in daily operations. A member, then, earns her/his pay by engaging citizens and educators on local issues, becoming an expert on academics/finance/policy, etc.

By catlady

May 23, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this

From what I have seen, a lot of the desire to serve is from wanting POWER. So saying, some serve out of a sense of public service, and possibly a few for the pay (but not in my neighborhood).

By jim d

May 23, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

Kristina,

Now why would you go and do that?

If we were getting what we’re paying for dear, we’d be getting educated children and not be ranked at the bottom educationally in Ga. when we are ranked above average in what we spend per student every year. Don’t ya think?

By jim d

May 23, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this

Kristina,

I guess I just subscribe to the famous Will rogers quote: “Be thankful we’re not getting all the government we’re paying for”

For that I am thankful!!Personally I’d be even happier if we got less. Maybe even abolishing mandatory school laws.

By holdingAJCaccountable

May 23, 2007 3:31 PM | Link to this

You know what could change everything? Require school board members to sub for a week. Maybe instead of becoming “policy wonks” they could see first hand what teachers have to put up with (Rather than what I’ve seen happen FAR too many times; a school board member comes to visit, and the disruptive children are made to “disappear” for a while)

If they can’t out and out sub, there has to be some mechanism for teachers to freely communicate, without fear of retaliation. As it stands now, I’d bet most school board member communicate with administrators, and thus don’t get the full feel of what happens in the classroom

By jim d

May 23, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

Holding,

You should be pleased with the disconnect. My BOE member was a certified teacher that chose another field of endeavor and then ran for office. What a joke that is. Here’s one that is confident he has all the answers and won’t even listen to a question.

By jim d

May 23, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

Let me add this.

Anyone that has ever taught should not be allowed to set on a BOE, in my opinon. They’ve been lead around by the nose so long that they will fall right back into that trap if they have an overbearing super. Which then results in no checks and balances.

By Lisa B.

May 23, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this

That’s a point Jim D. I’ll have to think about that. In my system, we are pleased to have on our board for the first time, a former educator. Most of our board members have typically been farmers. The retired educator was able to persuade the landowners of the importance of paying our fair share of property taxes. It’s been interesting. If our board members are paid at all, it is a pittance.

By jim d

May 23, 2007 5:04 PM | Link to this

Lisa,

in response to your earlier question. “What can we do?”

Allow me to pitch a rather radical idea.

Lets repeal compulsory school attendance laws and end all governmental involvement in education.

lets leave education to the free market as we do with the production of food, clothing, religion and other parts of our lives.

The free market has always produced the best of everything. It would undoubtedly produce the finest education imaginable.

I can envision thousands of educational entrepreneurs vying for parents business. The business of educating our children in much the same way that thousands of businesses cater to the other needs in our lives.

I truly believe the diversity of educational products would be unlimited and our children would benefit.

By JustMe

May 23, 2007 5:18 PM | Link to this

Lisa B.-

You and I know that that vast majority of Board members are not educators. In fact, most of the school boards in the metro area have no educators at all.

Just ignore jim. He is ignorant as to how education really works. Many have challenged him to step inside of a classroom so that he can experience it first hand, but he just doesn’t respond to those challenges. Simply read his last two posts to see how ‘out there’ he really is….

IMHO, the school board should be made up of mostly current classroom teachers (not administrators). These are the people that see the impact of policies first-hand on the students and their learning. There should also be local corporate representation and also parent representation. I do not think that there should be any administrators on the school board at all.

By JustMe

May 23, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

Newsweek has just released its list of top high schools in the US, and many are right here in the metro area!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18757087/?sort=Rank&count=1236&start=0&limit=100&year=2007

For those that continue to condem public education - take that! This clearly shows that it is possible to succeed in public education.

By jim d

May 23, 2007 5:27 PM | Link to this

just me

Oh but I do know.

School forcibly snatches away children from a world full of the mystery of God’s own handiwork, full of the suggestiveness of personality. It is a mere method of discipline which refuses to take into account the individual. It is a manufactory specially designed for grinding out uniform results. It follows an imaginary straight line of the average in digging its channel of education.

By Lisa B.

May 23, 2007 5:28 PM | Link to this

Jim D.

I think getting the government out of education is a great idea; for my son and yours. I think the govenment idea of educating the masses prevents competition, and encourages mediocrity. Your son and mine will receive educations, because you and I will see to it. If fact, while I was working on my MBA years ago, one of the reasons (according to that textbook) for compulsary education was to get the kids out of the factories so adults could find jobs. It seemed like a good plan. However, public education today is not working. The main problem I have is that I teach a few children every who would not be in school if the law didn’t force parents to send them. These children also deserve an education. They like school. They want to be there. The question is, how many children are we willing to sacrafice to educate the thugs and chronic disrupters? If we could get rid of those, school would be much better.

By jim d

May 23, 2007 5:29 PM | Link to this

OMG,

you posted a link!!

By JustMe

May 23, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

Lisa B. -

I think I see your point, and if so, then I agree. It is the encumbering rules and regulations passed down from federal and/or state and/or district and/or school that encroaches into my classroom and prevents what I, as an (over-) educated professional, know what needs to be done for the students sitting in front of me.

In that, I agree 100%.

In DeKalb County, rules are now going to be enforced system-wide that will dictate when I teach what. This means that if I have a group of really smart kids, I cannot move ahead. Or, if I have a group of kids that may need more time on something, too bad. Also, they will be dictating how much each assignment will count towards their final grade. In other words, I cannot decide to give a special project that the kids may be interested in and have it count 10% - the County has already made all of those decisions for me.

These rules and regulations are stripping the professionalism out of teaching such that we are nothing more than mindless robots. And, by doing this, they are also treating every student as if they are identical.

I do not blame ‘public education.’ I do not blame ‘education’ in general. I blame the policy makers who are the administrators that are so far detached from the actual classroom experience that they have no idea of the implications of their policies.

These policies will most certainly drive away ‘good’ teachers that sincerely want to help students learn. I guess this is what DeKalb County wants?

By jim d

May 23, 2007 5:50 PM | Link to this

Actually Lisa those kids that want to be there, would find a way to recieve an education. Some of the greatest minds that ever lived were self educated. Public schools don’t educate—they merely indoctrinate. Children that want to learn do so dispite the indoctrination.

Yes there are some great teachers teaching in our public schools. But those teachers aren’t even allowed to teach anything other than a scripted lesson. I don’t consider that educating.

By jim d

May 23, 2007 5:57 PM | Link to this

Whoa dudette,

on one blog kids must obey all the rules regardless of how lame but on this one teachers shouldn’t have to follow rules they deem improper?

Thats pretty hard to swallow.

By WFC

May 24, 2007 8:27 AM | Link to this

The Fulton County school board is largely worhtless, full of women lacking knowledge about education who are simply using the positions as “stepping stones” to higher status political careers (Liz Hausmann comes to mind.) What a joke!

By jim d

May 24, 2007 9:12 AM | Link to this

The only true problem with electing BOE members is an uninformed electorate.

By Joy in Teaching

May 24, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

I rather agree with you, Jim.

Teachers who complain about (and try to get around the rules) should never complain when their students do the same thing. If a change is needed, then they should do what they can to make that change.

By hs sped

May 24, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

I didn’t know that they even drew a salary. I don’t think they should get paid anything. They should volunteer because it should be an honor to do so. I wonder what they make in Fayette County? Do you think it’s posted along with the teacher salary charts?

By jim d

May 24, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this

Speaking of salaries. The saga on double dipping continues as teachers speak out.

http://www.wsbtv.com/video/13369313/index.html

By jim d

May 24, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

yeah joy,

I just become troubled when someone complains about all the rules in education that they must follow, and often don’t, and yet feel that children must follow every rule just because “I said so”, I suppose thats just something though that happens when one is an (over-) educated professional.

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

May 24, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this

Noticed Bridget’s glowing article on Carver High in Atlanta. But when Bridget was asked why the AJC didn’t follow up on FALSIFIED DOCUMENTS concerning the discipline in APS she said “The APS writer is on vacation.” Is the AJC a newspaper, or a public realtions firm for vested interests?

By JustMe

May 24, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this

Joy in Teaching -

You are confused. I never said that teachers should be allowed to “get around rules.”

As professional in education and as adults, we are trained to use a variety of teaching methods per the learning styles of our particular mix of students in our class. As such, we are closest to the classroom experience and climate and environment for each separate period for every day of the semester. Being closest, we know our students and their capabilities and can tailor our lessons to best suit them.

What I disagree with is when the policy makers encroach on the TEACHING inside the classroom - not the “rules”.

That is far different from the rules for students. Besides, jim d is being his usualy jerk self, trying to compare adults to little children.

By JustMe

May 24, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

It takes a giant idiot to be unable to tell the different between behavior rules (ie - no ipods in the classroom, no running in the halls, etc.), and job related rules (ie - you must teach this topic on this day and then give these 10 questions as a quiz that count x%).

But wait…. we do have a giant idiot on these blogs!

By HB

May 24, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

And there begins the daily refrain of anybody who disagrees with JustMe is a giant idiot, the kind of parent causing all the problems of the world, or simply from another planet.

While jim d may have some radical ideas, he is not totally off the mark in talking about rules. I believe he’s saying seemingly harsh, unreasonable rules are tough to swallow at any age, so why should anyone be expected to accept without question, on faith, that are rules handed down by authority are good and just?

No ipods in the classroom is a good rule designed to keep class time focused and productive. A similar rule for teachers would be that you must arrive on time for school each day because things obviously will not go smoothly if teachers trickle in the doors halfway through first period.

Other micromanaging rules, however, just make people feel like they cannot be trusted to do a good job, and discourage them from even trying to excel. Why bother? They still will be treated as someone certain to screw up at any second. These would be rules like silent class changes because children can not be trusted to relax and talk and a reasonable volume for a couple of minutes and then come back on task — easier to just “keep them in line” every minute of the day. Why not use silent changes as a punishment if the kids don’t behave instead? Or the rules you mentioned for teachers — you must teach on this topic on this day. They don’t trust each and every one of you to do your job well, so it’s easier to dictate every aspect of instruction from amount of time spent on each topic to how to grade. Wouldn’t it be better to save such measures for teachers with proven poor performance? I think in both of these cases those subject to such restrictive rules would feel demoralized and have good reason to ask for change.

By JustMe

May 24, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

HB -

What you fail to realize, is the difference between “behavior” rules (especially for little kids) and “job-related” rules (for adults). And yes, anyone that cannot see the difference is an idiot.

Yes, teachers also have “behavior” rules, but that is not what I have been referring to. I have been referring to the “job-related” rules for adults.

And yes, there is a difference between adults and children.

But, since HB, Joy, and jim d obviously cannot grasp the difference here, I simply give up on this blog. Good luck to you all.

By JustMeIsCorrect

May 24, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

I want to chime in and point out that JustMe is correct. One cannot lump children and adults together like that because there is a difference.

Should children handle sharp knives? Can adults? Why is there a difference?

Also, micromanaging has proven ineffective in the corporate world, but according to JustMe, it is alive and well in education.

These are two separate issues and should not be intermixed.

By jim d

May 24, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

At preciously 1:36 pm on 5/22/07—-someone posted—“ more rules are created because some kids misbehave. If there was no misbehavior, there would be no rules”

Just me, following that line of logic does that mean that if teachers were doing their job—no rules would be instituted to tell them how to do it? I’m afraid your double standards are showing. But then so is your intelligence when you must revert to calling people, ideas and thoughts that fail to coincide with yours, names. I fear this lack of professionalism and just common courtesy really damages any credibility you might have with your peers.

By HB

May 24, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this

JustMe, what you fail to realize is that these “behavior” rules and “job-related” rules are not as different as you seem to think.

JustMeIsCorrect, of course, children should have different rules from adults. We all know that. If you reread my post, you’ll see I never suggested all rules should apply to people of all ages. But that doesn’t mean that all rules placed on children are good ones, or that it’s impossible to subject children to too many rules.

And you are correct that micromanagement has been proven ineffective yet is alive and well in public schools. It’s not just micoromanagement of teachers, though, it’s become part of the education culture. From kids no longer having recess time for unstructured play to the federal government handing down testing mandates to state and local systems, micromanagement is rampant. Kids, teachers, and administrators all are being held hostage by an overabundance of rules and regulations. And it’s not working!!!

By Jeff

May 24, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

jim:

What you fail to understand is that the teacher is the ADULT in the room, and because of that is the ONLY one with the power to give an order in that room. If a teacher chooses to not obey a rule, that is their right as an adult. Students are to follow rules NO MATTER WHAT. They are CHILDREN.

By jim d

May 24, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this

So jeff, what you are saying is that if a teacher orders a child to have sex with them they must comply because they are children—-gimme a friggin break! regardless of what you may think Teachers aren’t gods.

By JustMeIsCorrect

May 24, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

It is a waste of time to reason with jim d…… As others have pointed out, he should go into a classroom and see what reality is at this time before standing so very firm on his ‘beliefs’. He prefers to search online for any hint of a doc that supports his position and post that as a link rather than to have any sort of real experience to draw upon.

By jim d

May 25, 2007 8:19 AM | Link to this

Justmeiscorrect, is wrong.

I’m not that difficult to reason with if one accepts the fact that just by virtue of being a public school teacher one isn’t always correct. As for the continued invitations into your classrooms? Thanks, but let me invite you to join us in ours. (school is about to start) Be sure to bring a backpack, tent, sleeping bag, hiking boots and a week or two’s supply of food.

Oh, and it might help to bring an open mind along! You may discover as I have, that the vast majority of children are curious by nature, learn naturally by doing and oftentimes by failing provided they are encouraged and aren’t being judged. They are resilient, innovative, capable, and generally quite open, honest, loyal and trustworthy. Yes, you may even discover that children are capable of having independent intelligent thought without being spoon fed all of the educational establishment mantra that most public schools attempt to force-feed them.

What many teachers in a public school classroom fail to realize is that education isn’t confined to a schoolhouse nor is it contained solely in textbooks. No indeed, education is made up of life experiences and what we take from them.

Have a great summer!

By Lee

May 25, 2007 8:32 AM | Link to this

Regarding rules….

I’ve often said that a weak man likes a lot of rules. He uses them to hide behind when he cannot make a decision or justify his actions. Much easier to say, “Well, I agree with you, but my hands are tied because of this rule. See, it’s not me….”

Zero tolerance this. Zero tolerance that. Zero decision making. Zero accountability.

By Lee

May 25, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

Regarding school board pay:

I think most systems outside the metro Atlanta area pay their board members a nominal salary, usually a few hundred dollars per month.

It’s my observation that the state DOE and other entities such as SAC basically dictate how a school system is run. Probably the only thing left for the school board of any importance is to hire the Superintendent. Everything else is pretty much a rubber stamp exercise.