Get Schooled

By Jeff

May 14, 2007 8:26 AM | Link to this

Why do we allow kids to bring in electronic devices at all? (Other than a calculator for SELECT HS math classes.)

The “honesty is the only norm” is highly naive. Ya gotta remember, these are the same kids that will deny painting the room red when they have red paint all over themselves AND were caught on camera! And the same parents that support those kids!!

By jim d

May 14, 2007 8:46 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Can we really fault the kids for this when their entire future may hang in the ballance between a “B” and a “C”?

Thank you NCLB!and high stakes testing

By Jeff

May 14, 2007 8:48 AM | Link to this

Also, Bridget, just a request:

Three stories came out over the weekend in Education-dom, and at least two of them would be interesting to talk about (IMHO anyway!):

-Yet another teacher was alleged to have taken pics of some student in the bathroom. (I haven’t even read the story, much less done any real research into it.)

-Some Grandparents in Chicago are suing the local board over a sub showing “Brokeback Mountain” to 8th graders.

-Teachers in TN are coming under fire for a grand experiment of staging a (fake) attack on their school in order to prepare kids for the worst.

By high school teacher

May 14, 2007 8:51 AM | Link to this

shouldn’t parents, teachers and administrators just do more to ensure a campus culture where honesty is the only norm?

Any suggestions on how to achieve this? I’m at a loss. In the culture where even the honors kids risk cheating to preserve that 4.0, I have no idea how to promote no cheating at school. At home on the other hand…

By jim d

May 14, 2007 8:52 AM | Link to this

I recently wrote a relatively high placed educator and recieved a response I’d love to share in part.

I truly believe he said it all when he wrote: “For way to long (at least the last 25 years) we have tried hard to be more than what we are supposed to be. Our business is teaching and learning. If we do our job the way we are supposed to do it the other things will take care of them selves.”

To that I say a large Amen

By Jeff

May 14, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

jim:

There is only one decision in life that your entire future hangs in the balance over, and it has nothing to do with school…

I don’t buy the line about people’s entire lives hanging in the balance over schooling-related things at all. One simple reason: any schooling-related concern can be overcome. There are SOOOO many redundancies built into our current system that the only way to truly fail is to not try. So you don’t get HOPE. Big Deal. (sarcasm) Get a job, take classes at night. Yes, you don’t have time to goof around, but hey, you did that in HS anyway. Yes, life is harder, but you’re still alive and you were NEVER garaunteed an easy life anyway. Major college won’t accept you? Big Deal. (again, sarcasm). Go to the local two year school. (GA has them within a hundred miles or so pretty much wherever you are in the state.) Get a few credits under your belt, work hard. Transfer out (or graduate with your Associates and move on from there) and into the school you wanted into in the first place. Especially in GA, it is generally MUCH easier to get in that way anyway.

You want pity? Don’t come crying on my doorstep. I’ve already fought through battles that would make your generation (talking to HS students) think you were in Hades already, and yet I stand. (And the sad fact is that even the battles I’ve fought through are nothing compared to generations prior to me.)

By jim d

May 14, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this

Well Jeff,

Fraid we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.I believe that peer pressure, expectaions of teachers and parents all are major contributing factors to why a student may cheat. Couple that with high stakes testing and the pressure we are placing on our children as a society are tremendous. And yes they are still children, they reason as children, their primary goal is to keep the peace and please everyone.

By Jeff

May 14, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this

jim:

Maybe I’m naive, but I live my life according to a set of ideals: Honor, Courage, Commitment. Cheating breaks all three. There is NO excuse, NONE. Matter of fact, as despicable as child molesters are, I put them ABOVE cheaters….

By jim d

May 14, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

Now that is scary!

By wwww

May 14, 2007 9:40 AM | Link to this

As a teacher, I see cheating as accepted by students and parents as just part of going to school and getting ahead. When I catch them “sharing” answers, or catch a project done by a parent or older sibling, and I tell them it’s cheating, they look surprised, and i believe many of them are. There is such an emphasis on the end result: the grade, test score, GPA, etc., there isn’t a whole lot of time and effort spent on how to get there - and that is by the school systems, parents and students. So what do we expect, really? They are still children, and reason as such.

By jim d

May 14, 2007 9:56 AM | Link to this

www,

You bring up another interesting point in “sharing answers”

I’ve seen teachers use “sharing answers” as a teaching / learning tool on quizzes and I can see how this might be a helpful tool, but what is this teaching students?

By Janine

May 14, 2007 9:59 AM | Link to this

Good morning Bridget,Jeff, jimd, HST,and others…. The question: shouldn’t parents, teachers and administrators just do more to ensure a campus culture where honesty is the only norm?

Over and over, here on this blog, we have all bemoaned the fact that parents neglect what we regard as the very basics of child rearing. We have not yet come up with a workable plan for correcting that.

In our society where our young are daily bombarded with images in local and national politics,in education,indeed in all areas, that are diametrically opposed to nobility, honesty, and Jeff’s admirable qualities of honor, courage,and commitment, …where morality and cautionary tales are rare, where parents pushed for time put the building of character in their children on the back burner, if , indeed it is on a burner at all…I, like high School teacher am at a loss as to how to change what Bridget calls campus culture.

By meme

May 14, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this

As teachers, we are expected to make things as easy as possible for our students. We are required to teach to the lowest functioning student in the class. Yet, we still have the smarter students cheating. Why? IMHO it is because we have allowed them to get so lazy, they don’t want to do anything.

By Janine

May 14, 2007 10:11 AM | Link to this

My first experience with the term Sharing answers came in an Inservice when my school first experienced an influx of Hispanic studetns. I can’t remember the exact title of the Staff Development program, but it had to do with understanding cultural differences and effectively teaching Hispanic students.

It was pointed out by the instructor, who was Hispanic, that we would encounter Hispanic students sharing answers . This is not cheating, she said. This is a cultural difference. It is considered a good thing to help other Hispanic students make good grades. MOST IMPORTANT…we were instructed that we should not treat it as cheating!

By jim d

May 14, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

Morning janine,

In my 8:52 I posted what an educator had to say. I firmly concur with his statement.

If teachers would be allowed to focus on teaching, far less cheating would occur. We must get back to allowing teachers to teach or we shall be forced to continue watching the demise of public education in this country.

By James

May 14, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

As a teacher, I will tell you why students cheat. It comes down to parents. What has happened in our society for parents to constantly push their students beyond their means? When a student feels that he or she cannot meet the demands of their parents, they cheat for fear of what will happen. What has happened to the old addage of, “Learn from your mistakes - it’s the only way to become better”?

Also, what happened to average? Why is everybody persistent on having their children be the best? 70 - 75% of the country is average. A select few are considered gifted (by the way, there is a difference between gifted and being smart!). I know what has happened to average - parents are fearful that they will be exposed as average intelligence if their child is not in an accelerated program.

Let children be children. They need to enjoy learning and develop a love for learning; not an hatred for it and then resort to cheating. Encourage and nurture your child. Bring our their best.

By jack

May 14, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this

Just a little tip for busting the term paper cheaters. Type the first few lines of their paper into google. Be sure to put it in quotes. I have caught several cheater this way. They are always surprised when they get their paper back with “Plagirism is illegal” written on it.

By Janine

May 14, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

IMHO, as with many other things in our culture, LACK OF SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES ,….for breaking rules, for straying from culturally valued behavior… has greatly contributed to the decline of values that, in the past, were held sacred by the great majority.

By wwww

May 14, 2007 10:20 AM | Link to this

jim d:

Ah yes, sharing answers. We are encouraged to use group work as much as possible, because working in a groups supposedly helps students learn and retain more material. I find it to be a joke. But hey, what do I know, right? It only works if: 1. every student is highly motivated to learn the material 2. every student is a naturally engaged student 3. every students is a naturally focused and hardworking student

What ends up happening is: 1. one or two students do the work and “share” with the others 2. a lot of socializing 3. a lot of off task behavior in general

It is encouraged because it is “fun” and “entertaining” for the students. We wouldn’t want school to be a bore, would we? So, the sharing of answers in this fashion is condoned. The line between cheating and working collaboratively is blurred terribly. Independent work has become something of a dinosaur in education - even for teachers. We are often required to share work with other teachers, but like with students, one or two strong teachers carry the others. It’s really not fair, but at least it makes more sense - weaker teachers get the “help” they need.

By Janine

May 14, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

jim d,I totally agree with your 8:52 post. I just can’t see it happening any time soon. Can you???

By V for Vendetta

May 14, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

lol, Jim did that high ranking guy include the typos or was that just transcription error? :-)

(ex. to instead of too and them selves instead of themselves) I just thought that would be funny if he responded WITH errors.

I kind of see both sides of this issue. As jim said, the pressure to maintain high averages is monumental these days, so some kids are driven to violate their beliefs in an attempt to preserve good grades. That having been said, I think Jeff also has a good point about honor and honesty. What are we teaching them by pushing them to that point? What are we teaching them be not cracking down on it with severity? (Although the child molestor example may be a bit harsh Jeff!)

I’m really torn about this, but when I look to how it’s treated in college it only muddles my thinking. In college, often times you have very few grades per semester. As a result, the grades you receive are EXTREMELY important. At most colleges, the penalties for cheating include immediate expulsion. Perhaps WE are the ones being naive to think that the pressure is an excuse for the kids to take the easy way out.

Look, I ain’t about to pretend that I didn’t do it here and there when I was in high school. The difference was that back then I’d steal a look at someone’s paper to get a peek at an answer. Now kids use the internet to try and rip off whole papers. Perhaps it’s the amount and the availability of fradulant methods that makes it so alarming now. Of course, perhaps if we expelled every kid who was caught cheating the problem would take care of itself. I really can’t say.

By Janine

May 14, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

Jack…So what happens to the student that receives that paper marked “Plagarism is illegal”? Just a 0 on the paper that can be brought up to a passing grade?…0 in the entire class? Slap on the hand?

Back in the day, it would have resulted in 0 in the entire class, suspension, or even expulsion. I had a friend, also “back in the day”, who was expelled from college for plagarism.

By V for Vendetta

May 14, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

Jack, Google has become my best friend lately. The kids can’t seem to find away around it (if it’s on the web, it’s on Google!).

Janine, my rule is simple: Unless the kid blatantly ripped off the entire paper and/or sources, I simply give him a zero. If the entire paper is copied word for word I usually write him up for disciplinary action. Most kids only need one experience with that to fly right. Because most of my essays count as major test grades, this usually leaves the student with a decimated average and he/she spends the rest of the semester trying to pull it up.

Example: My first year teaching I caught a nice girl (A/B student) cheating on an essay. I explained to her why she got the zero, emailed her parents, and reduced her average to somewhere in the 50’s. She spent the rest of the semester struggling just pass after that. She later told me that she never even considered doing that again after what I did to her.

Mission accomplished.

By Janine

May 14, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

V..good point about the availability of fraudulent methods. Add that to the lack of serious consequences and we may have at least part of the problem and part of the solution.

By jim d

May 14, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

James,

I fear you are getting closer to the root cause of cheating although I’m not too sure it is the “parents”. I’m nearly convinced though that it is another “Mexican plot.”

V,

Take it anyway you wish, I mearly cut and pasted from the origional text. But then as you should be quite aware. I’d never make it as a spelling cop. :-)

By V for Vendetta

May 14, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

Jim, please tell me it was from the Gwinnett BOE. That will make me laugh even harder!

I’m actually still chuckling over your “mexican plot” comment. Dare I say we’ve found a topic that cannot be blamed entirely on parents and/or Mexicans? Or even Mexican parents?

Sorry, it’s Monday and I think I’ve lost my mind.

By Jeff

May 14, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

V:

Force me to choose between a cheater and a child molester, and my reasoning goes like this:

I can trust a child molester with anything but kids. I can’t trust a cheater with anything. Therefore, give me the child molester.

By jim d

May 14, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

V,

Not at liberty to say—but will say don’t rule anything out.

By V for Vendetta

May 14, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Interesting point, maybe we should start castrating cheaters as well. That’d get their attention REAL QUICK! :-)

By jim d

May 14, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

Well jeff,

the other side of that coin is that a cheater only hurts themselves.

By Ernest

May 14, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

V, good point at 10:37. I spoke to my brother in-law who teaches at a seminary. He mentioned he Googles selected text from every paper he recieves because plagarism is rampant. Who would have thought that at a seminary… :)

Is is fair to say that part of the reason behind the cheating is money? Think of the financially impact of not making at least a 3.0 or even a 4.2. It could cut down the opportunities of choice colleges for some students. Who knows the long term financially impact of that. I’m not surprised.

By get real

May 14, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

This country is about what you have, not how you got it. The CEO that runs your company and all the politicians of our nation didn’t get where they are because they are the absolute smartest people on the planet. It’s all about who you know and what you can do to give yourself an edge without getting caught.

By jim d

May 14, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this

www,

on the group think thingy.

My child has done one shared project in 3 years to date. He’s actually being forced to do the second as we speak. He found early on that it lowers his grade and will opt to work independently if given a choice.

As for sharing answers on class quizzes, he seems to be the answer guy for everyone setting near him.

By JustMe

May 14, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

jim d-

I don’t mean for this to sound personal, but….

You do sound like every parent in the world that I have spoken to. Their child would never cheat. Others cheat off of their child. Their child does all the work on group projects. Other children sit back and will let their child do all of the work.

Funny how that works, huh, if all parents are correct?

I do assign group projects. However, part of their grade is given by others in the group. This means that each person has the opportunity to assign points (or lack of points) to the child that does not contribute to the project. And, this is done confidentially - all the individual knows is the total number of points from the other group members.

Part of the learning process is how to work with others.

By All actions have consequences

May 14, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

A good friend of mine in college back in the day, who was brought up in a good home with a preacher father, believed all this bull and failed College Algebra or maybe it was Calculus. Everyone else cheated and wrote down the formulas. He got drafted and sent to Vietnam when he failed the class and was booted from college. He steeped on a landmine and came home with no legs and major drug habit. The VA then lied about his “hunting accident” to cover up his suicide. His parents died thinking it was God’s will or some other bull but the truth is a few formulas engraved on the side of a pencil and he’d be here now.

By meme

May 14, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Aahc, Don’t believe you. Failing one subject in college doesn’t get you kicked out unless that is the only subject you are taking. Something else was going on in his life for him to be kicked out.

By high school teacher

May 14, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

For those in the business world: how many of you work in groups or teams on a project? How many of you have pulled extra weight for fear of losing your job?

That’s one of the reasons we assign group projects in school: to prepare for the next level.

By jim d

May 14, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

just me,

yep, i’m an “A typical parent” just like you are an “A typical teacher”

By Jeff

May 14, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

HST:

One thing I’ve learned in the corporate world:

You have to have a base level of knowledge to work effectively in groups. Students do not have that base level. They must PROVE it on an individual level before I will say otherwise. Teachers do kids a disservice with all this group work. Indeed, from what I have seen in the corporate world, while you are on a “team”, each member has their own individual projects to complete as part of the “team” effort. Therefore while outsiders - such as teachers - see “teamwork”, on the inside it is really individual work toward a common goal. The “common goal” in HS should be extremely simple: every member of a freshman class graduates in 4 years. That requires the individual work of learning all material and earning a passing grade in all classes.

By Zoe

May 14, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

There is an article on the Washington Post about how the school system lifted major parts of its “school improvement plan” http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/08/AR2007050802047.html It comes from the top down.

By wwww

May 14, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

JustMe:

I don’t know what grade you teach, but I teach 8th. Most of the time, they are not exactly honest when filling out the sheets where they grade other group members - both good and bad. I also just don’t feel comfortable letting them grade each other for a permanent grade.
I don’t think that group projects are necessary in school to learn how to function in the “real world”. Many of us get that from interactions with friends and family. Each student should be responsible for his or her own learning.

By jim d

May 14, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

HST,

Preparing for the next level? Oh my!

I know I won’t get many honest answers to these questions, although I’ll surely unleash a firestorm of responses, but how many teachers ever cheated when in school?

Which of you add pressure to your students to cheat today by announcing grades openly in class?

Have you ever pressured your students by stating they need to study hard and pull good grades so they can get into college or get a good paying job?

Have you ever given “benefit of doubt” when grading a paper so a student could pull those grades?

How many of you with your fixed objectives, your multiple-choice exams, your distinction between up-bringing and learning, have forgotten that school should be about inquiry, adventure, surprise and discovery, a life long love of learning?

By wwww

May 14, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this

Oh, jim d. Please, please work in education for a year. Then you would have answers to all these questions. But, since you’ve never done so, I will answer.

By Kate

May 14, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

As a university professor, first thing I would do is stop having my colleagues use canned tests (multiple choice, T/F, etc.) and actually write original essay questions for students to answer. Make them have to apply concepts to specific examples (much harder to find papers online that say, respond to a newspaper article from yesterday’s AJC). Teach them the first week about plagiarism — then follow through with zero grades (I do that the first time it happens per students), force them rewrite it, but for no points; keep a record, if it happens again, I see them in Student Judicial Court and VP’s office. Put that in the syllabus. Tell them that I do it on behalf of the students who did not cheat/plagiarize and are accepting the grades they received, good or bad. But it means we professors have to work more grading — I grade something in writing from my 200 students EVERY WEEK. It’s worth it — they learn. The good ones write me later about how they appreciated having to work hard for the grade they received. Bonus — they learn how to write in my (social science) class.

By jim d

May 14, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this

www,

Thanks you just gave me a topic.

By former professor

May 14, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

As a former college chemistry professor, I’d like to put in my two cents on the “group work” idea. My students had 2-3 group lab projects each semester, they each did a series of experiments and then pooled their data for a formal write-up. I knew who did what experiments because for safety reasons I had to be in the lab when they were working, so I knew who did the work and who claimed they did the work. Other than that, they were left to their own devices. That being said, when the project was completed, they graded each other (and themselves)on a scale of 1-10 for each aspect of the project…experimental design, amount of work done, help in data interpretation, additional background research, etc. Believe me, they were harder on each other than I would have been on them. This said, their peer evaluations were worth 25% of the final project grade. I found this to be immensely helpful in the grading process because it certainly encouraged everyone to do a little bit because they knew that if they didn’t contribute, they very well could receive a failing grade on the project. (My observations in the lab and periodic progress checks were worth 25%).

Just me—I did see that somewhat, but I think that by college age, my students realized they needed to responsible for themselves and not necessarily protect others if it could hurt them in the long run.

By KKH

May 14, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

When does a person starting caring about integrity? Children, in and of themselves, are not necessarily born with a sense of personal integrity. Neither is it reasonable to expect a child to develop a desire for integrity on his/her own. That requires guidance and training. Integrity seems to become an issue when we expect honesty, dependability, and a sense of doing the right thing from someone else and, instead, receive lies, broken promises, and an if it works for “me” then I don’t care what happens to you attitude.
Cheaters are not born in high school or junior high or even elementary school. The idea that cheating is the answer to a difficult situation is something that is cultivated over time and flowers in the difficult situation. Certainly many factors contribute to this pattern of growth, but if you want to have a rose garden, don’t plant weed seeds. And if a weed does appear in a well-tended garden, the gardener will likely pull it out so as to preserve the environment for the roses. Likewise, parents and educators have an opportunity to identify thinking, decision-making, and ultimately behavior itself that is detimental to the forming of a child’s personal integrity and then they have the obligation to redirect and (dare I say it) correct the child in his/her behavior. Education is a necessity and academic achievement is a worthy goal, but it should not be attained at the expense of one’s character.

By Kudzu

May 14, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

Weeds have a purpose.

By KKH

May 14, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

Kudos to the college professors. If only educators were encouraged and empowered to respond to cheating with effective consequences. If only parents were appalled by their children cheating and would reinforce the consequences. If only children respected and feared the consequences.

By meme

May 14, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

jim d, I cheated once and after almost 45 years, I still feel guilty.

By jim d

May 14, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

www,

Ok, I wrote mine. We’ll see if Bridget has nerves of steal. :-)

Once again thanks and especially for the honest answers. (I noted you didn’t say never)

By another teacher

May 14, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this

There is excellent anti-plagiarism software out there. Turnitin.com is one. Students submit their papers electronically, it it compares them against many different things, including other papers submitted to turnitin. Each paper receives an “originality score.” All schools should have it.

By carter

May 14, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

Cheating is not acceptable, you cheat you fail.

By jim d

May 14, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this

Carter,

and what of teachers that cheat?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,47123,00.html

By high school teacher

May 14, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

jimd and jeff,

don’t read too much into my response. I didn’t say that I didn’t do individual work. Someone wanted a rationale for group work, and I gave one. I also do lots of individual assignments.

Jim, I would love to go back to the days of teaching kids to love learning, discovery, etc. However, it’s difficult to do that when you have to abide by a departmental schedule of what you are teaching which week, how long you are spending time on a unit, and making sure you have a review day at least once a week for EOCT’s.

As for your other questions:

I cheated once on a homework assignment, got a 0, and didn’t let anyone copy my paper again.

I don’t announce grades openly.

You bet I put pressure on the kids to succeed and remind them of how hard it is to get into a good college.

I’m not sure what you mean by “benefit of the doubt” on papers.

Are you implying that if a student cheats in my class, it’s because he or she feels too pressured to succeed? That it is essentially my fault if they cheat?

By DB

May 14, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

When my kids turn in a major paper in English or social sciences, it has to be turned in through a website called “turnitin.com”, which scans and evaluates the paper for possible plagiarism (also does away with the excuse, “The dog ate it …”) I don’t think they’ve turned in a paper copy of a paper in a couple of years — the English teachers prefers e-mail submissions so they can use the comment feature in Word to correct and comment.

It seems like most of the kids that get caught cheating aren’t doing it because they lack the ability to learn it — they just get overwhelmed with everything else going on in their life and see a way to take a shortcut. In their mind, it’s not really cheating, because they’d have been able to do it if they had had time to study for it. Honor and character seem to come in second to maintaining the GPA.

I think it’s sad that turnitin.com is a standard policy now. To me, the message it gives is, “We know you’re going to cheat unless we make it really, really hard for you …”, which is a basic lack of respect. Seems like it’s almost daring the kids to figure out a way to get around it :-)

Interesting how when cases like plagiarism and cheating come up before student honor councils, the students always tend to be harsher than teachers would be on cheaters.

By Jeff

May 14, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

DB:

The only way they could be harsher than me is if they are ordering a public stoning… and I kinda like even that idea! (Did I mention that cheaters are the lowest form of life on this planet - INCLUDING child molesters?)

By high school teacher

May 14, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

Jeff, if you really think that a 14 year old who copies another kid’s homework is worse than an adult who molests a child, please don’t ever have children or go back into the teaching profession!

By Spelling Nerd

May 14, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

Jack: “Plagirism” is not only illegal, it’s spelled wrong. The word is plagiarism. Here’s hoping that was only a typo on your part.

By Jeff

May 14, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

HST:

As I said earlier: I can trust a child molester with anything other than kids. I can’t trust a cheater with ANYTHING.

Honor. Courage. Commitment. Most registered sex offenders I’ve known follow that. They live honorably under their sentences and faithfully do everything they are ordered to do, whether or not they agree with it. They’ve proven over and over that they can be trusted (by and large. there ARE RSO’s that repeat, but MOST do not).

Cheaters just show over and over that they can NOT be trusted.

By jim d

May 14, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this

Comparing cheating on a paper and child molestation just ain’t right Dude. Actually pretty sick if you think about it.

By high school teacher

May 14, 2007 4:50 PM | Link to this

So how many times does one cheat in order to be called a “cheater”? Is one time sufficient, or do they have repeat offender status?

By Jeff

May 14, 2007 5:15 PM | Link to this

One time and you’ve lost my trust.

Again, to me it comes down to three basic concepts:

Honor. Courage. Commitment.

By catlady

May 14, 2007 5:27 PM | Link to this

I am not sure students are getting the right message at home or in the world. They see folks routinely lie and cheat, including our own school authorities who lie about discipline issues to make their schools look better. Exactly what do they learn when elected officials and school officials get by with telling lies?

And, certainly at our school, cheating is not dealt with severely. But why should it be, since we don’t deal with violence or parental neglect or truancy or even test results honestly?

By Jeff

May 15, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this

Ya know one thing I like about comic book movies? They’re the one place in this country where you can get a good message out of an entertaining movie without the message being spoiled or the movie sounding preachy.

That said, Spidey 3 had a line that fits perfectly into this debate:

“Whatever comes our way, whatever battle we have raging inside us, we always have a choice, my friend Harry taught me that. He chose to be the best of himself. It’s the choices that make us who we are, and we can always choose to do what’s right.”

By wwww

May 15, 2007 9:09 AM | Link to this

Jeff:

I am confused … Does a child molester exemplify honor, courage and committment?

I know several victims who would disagree with you.

By Jeff

May 15, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this

wwww:

Like I said: Most of them live the rest of their lives following whatever regulations they are ordered to follow, no matter if they agree with it or not. Yes, that shows honor, courage, and commitment.

Also as I said, however, I would NEVER trust them around a kid again. Anything other than kids though, I would have no problem trusting them.

By DB

May 15, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

Jeff:

We have all cheated or lied about something. Personally, I think a child molester, a person who steals the innocence from a child for their own selfish, twisted form of self-fullfillment and leaves what is sometimes life-time psychic scars, is far lower down the evolutionary scale than a kid who writes the formula for a physics problem on his hand before a test.

My favorite saying: “Children aren’t finished yet.” Which means that, when they make mistakes such as cheating, you correct and teach them (another term for discipline). Some kids you have to pound harder than others for them to get it, some get it instictively, and some never get it. This is the way of the world.

By threedeep

May 15, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this

Students who cheat, and the parents who support them will get their due in the long term. I know of a couple of classmates in college who regularly cheated and received high GPA’s. (In fact one beat me out on an internship I wanted, but I found another one). However, when we were in graduate school it all came to head, and one guy could not even pass the basic accounting entry exam (he was an accounting major).

The one thing I hate about cheaters when they are not caught is that it makes all of the honest students work look inferior. Now that I am in the classroom, I have carefully designed all 95% of my assignments to be completed in-class and very rarely assign homework. We all know that parents do more homework than help their children understand their homework.

By DB

May 15, 2007 10:21 AM | Link to this

threedeep:

We all know that parents do more homework than help their children understand their homework.

Huh? Are you really saying that most parents DO homework for kids?

I beg to differ. God knows, I couldn’t do my son’s AP Calculus homework if my life depended on it!

By Ernest

May 15, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

That is an interesting approach you have, threedeep. I’m curious how that works with your students, meaning do you find it easier to determine when a student does not understand a concept and needs additional assistance.

I simply think back to social studies and science fair projects at ES to see the ultimate in cheating. I’m sure many teachers know what I’m talking about. In some cases, they turn out to be parent competitions rather than those for students.

By 30 Year Teacher

May 15, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

You are sadly mistaken when it comes to recividism of child molesters. Unfortunately it occurs over and over again and the belief is that it is rarely controlled or cured. I imagine SET could provide information from his knowledge of the court settings.

By jim d

May 15, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this

30yr.

I think jeff might be correct because so many times these crimes go unreported, making it appear to have a low recidivism rate while in actuallity these crimes against children continue.

By SET

May 15, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Here’s my point on the child molester thing.

There are a series of general rules we know from statistics about sex criminals. Then there are a series of exceptions to the general rules. You have to work with both lists and the public is generally clueless about the subject.

ChoMo’s and Rapists are different although there are some crossover criminals. I am unfortunately an expert on sex criminals - with unusual experience in statistics, forensic psychology, and recividism.

Some of what we are experiencing in CA and nationally may be subject to regional differences - influenced by methamphetamine as well as ethnic distribution. There is no one set of rules or standards for all.

The most dangerous sex criminals to me are the psychopaths who also have a sex disorder (known as a Paraphilia). A Sexual Sadist is a rare example of what I fear the most. A kidnap sex torturer killer sort of guy. These people need to be removed from the gene pool of the human race. And there is support for psychopathy being genetically transmitted. Working with these people makes you forget many of the other sex criminals. Our government actually protects psychopaths by making secret their histories. This may end with more criminal court records being placed on the Internet.

Schools usually think of Pedophiles - those with a sexual interest in children. The term does not cover those interested in teenagers - there is another term for them. Pedophilia refers to a sexual interest in pre-pubescent children - think age 2 years to 8 years old. They may be exclusively sexually after that target group or may also be able to function normally with adults and turn to children during times of stress or opportunity. If they have the clinical disorder they lose control of their appetite and act even when they are likely to get caught. The “disorder” necesarily implies a lack of control - which is why you don’t rely on their honest promises to be good any more than you make an alcoholic a bartender. The best you can hope for is a managed sustained remission of acting out(i.e. relapse prevention).

In my experience with court cases the bulk of the escapades involved the participation of negligent parent(s) or parent(s) who willingly pimped their kid out to get molested. Sorry, Meth is a hell of a drug. It is extraordinarily rare for a predator to come into a sleeping child’s bedroom and carry her away at 2am. When it happens to a white girl the whole world reacts and you get 3 strikes legislation enacted in a matter of months. And I supported and still support that legislation - so I’m just saying all this for a point of observation.

Who do you think the bulk of the victims are, anyway? Ken and Barbie or Otis and Latifa?

The (apparent) rise of sex offending is a direct result of the government’s re-engineering of the American “Family”. And things are likely to get worse not better. Most of the offenders are family and friends and lovers and drug using associates of the pre-pubescent victim’s parent(s). Yet we are seeing a war on “sex offenders” reminicent of the song “Blame Canada” from the South Park movie. (Blame Canada before someone blames us..)

Now as to the teenagers, that’s a whole new ball game. The average AIDS Dx here is a black female of 24 infected for 10 years. Teenaged sexuality is too complicated to cover in this text - but on paper the females are all “victims” and the males are most often the “predators”… RIGHT. It’s “complicated”.

Anyone who could seriously entertain Chrystal Gail Magnum or Twanna Brawley as victims deserve the scorn history heaps on them.

When it comes to teenagers and sex, everything is illegal but the truth is always somewhere between the two stories. I look at physical evidence before I even want to hear what these people have to say about whatever might have happened. And if they are mentally ill or substance users - their word is only useful added to other evidence.

Maybe things are different in your state.

By jim d

May 15, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Just out of curiousity. Do you draw any differentiation between a child that betrays an adults trust over cheating on a test and an adult that betrays a childs trust for self gratification?

Personally I feel the latter is the lowest form of life on this earth and I do believe you’ll find that even most inmates agree with me on this one. From what I’ve read child molesters don’t have an easy time in the pen.

By Jeff

May 15, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

jim:

The BEST I will say about a cheater is that they are equal to a child molester in my eyes. And that is when I’m being EXTREMELY lenient.

By high school teacher

May 15, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this

Jimd, I think we are beating a dead horse here. Jeff obviously has a different set of values/morals/principles than most.

By Jeff

May 15, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

HST:

Not exactly. I hold child molesters in just as low esteem as y’all do. I simply feel that cheaters are even lower.

By Lisa B.

May 15, 2007 5:40 PM | Link to this

One problem I find with some cheaters, is their belief they are above the rules. Later, that translates into being above the law. If kids are allowed to cheat, and disregard rules, I think many of them grow up disregrading laws, which causes employment problems and/or jail. In elementary school, I see rampant cheating. I think we do so much group work, some children don’t even try to do anything on their own. As was said in an earlier post, the group work is never evenly divided. Even during Writer’s Workshop, some peers literally rewrite another’s story during the revising process. I realize people need to know how to work together, but they also need to know how to work alone.

By SET

May 15, 2007 5:54 PM | Link to this

Lisa B: One of the problems I see with NCLB is that it is designed to induce systematic cheating. NCLB is a very corrosive thing and we have not seen the full damage from it yet.

By Lisa B.

May 15, 2007 6:18 PM | Link to this

SET,

I agree with what you say about NCLB. I don’t think any of us yet really understand the long term damage that will be inflicted. Unfortunately, the law is up for reauthorization, and the changes considered will be of little help. On my more pessimistic days, I believe the real purpose of NCLB is to dismantle public education and permenently assign people to their current (or even a lower) class. As has been posted before, the really bright, highly educated people will be okay, but woe to the rest.

By Lee

May 15, 2007 7:55 PM | Link to this

Regarding cheaters….

Kids are very perceptive.

When they see the star athlete get a wink and a nod for copying off someone else’s paper, they take notice.

When the school is akin to a war zone and the administration reports zero violent incidents, they take notice.

When teachers “prep” them for the CRCT, they know what is going on.

When they are in high school and sitting next to someone reading on a third grade level, they know what is going on.

Finally, when the school goes into a week long butt-kiss fest over a renown plagiarizer (is that a word?), they take notice.

Oh, who is the plagiarizer you ask, why, none other than Michael (aka, Martin Luther) King.