Get Schooled

By Jeff

May 11, 2007 8:34 AM | Link to this

Bridget, let me give you a case in point:

Alcoholic grandfather, father that quit drinking when the oldest was about 5 years old, middle child at that point was 2, youngest was still two years away.

Mother and father tell all three kids all their lives not to drink. Oldest and youngest are not exactly socialites, though youngest tries. Both oldest and youngest are academics, though youngest tries to be an athlete as well, with some success. Middle child is the popular starting Center on the football team and one of the better wrestlers to boot.

Oldest never went to homecoming or prom, and never drank until 21st birthday.

When he speaks of this later to Middle, Middle talks about going out drinking after the football games, homecoming, and prom. Until recently, oldest believes that Middle had drank more in his life than the oldest. Middle is STILL underage (turns 21 later this year), and oldest is 24.

Yes, that is the story of drinking as it relates to me and my younger brothers. My point being: It might not even be a GENERATIONAL gap. It could be as small a gap as THREE YEARS!

By jim d

May 11, 2007 8:45 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Hate to disagree, but my expierence has been that it had nothing to do with age but more so with personal responsibility. Then again after careful observation I often wonder if perhaps addictive behaviors aren’t inherited. Perhaps that gene just skipped over you.

By JustMe

May 11, 2007 8:48 AM | Link to this

For those of you that refuse to believe so, this is another example of how today’s parents simply don’t know how to parent. As each year passes, it seems that parents are less and less effective in raising children properly (teaching morals, values, ethics, respect for authority, etc.).

I wish I knew the answer as to how to reverse this trend.

By jim d

May 11, 2007 8:54 AM | Link to this

Bridget,

No I’d say they are not a dying breed. Those that are the risk takers often are though. Pick up the paper any day and read it. Most recently perhaps was a young quarterback in Gwinnett County.

As a parent I feel it is my job to see to it that my children have the information to make informed choices. Will they ever drink? Well the oldest are of age and do. The youngest in all likelihood will. We have an agreement that if he does that he will call and tell me he doesn’t feel well and I will pick him up—no questions asked or judgement passed. I’m sure a few bloggers will think this is encouraging poor behavior but I prefer to view it as seeing he does no harm to himself or others.

DRINKING AND DRIVING JUST SPELL DISASTER!

By catlady

May 11, 2007 9:04 AM | Link to this

Or maybe it is just a personal decision depending on the high school and group you hang out with. My older daughter, now 12 years removed from prom time at a large college town high school: lots of socializing, no drinking (although she knew some who were), little dancing. Stayed with buddies and their dates. Middle child, now 8 years out of high school: did not go, thought it a waste of money. Youngest, 4 years removed from a rural high school: lots of socializing, was around drinkers, did a good bit of dancing. Stayed with buddies and their dates. Both the oldest and the youngest hung out with kids from church youth group and fairly popular kids involved in lots of non-sports activities at school, but not among the ultra rich or ultra indulged. No one stayed out all night, got hotel rooms, etc. Parents gave midnight “breakfasts” and kids went home.

I think it depends on the individual, how he defines himself in relation to his peers (does he see himself as an independent thinker?} and what they are doing, and who he has identified as his support system. Some high schools have much more social pressure among certain groups of kids, and some parents have a much more accepting attitude than others.

By Jeff

May 11, 2007 9:04 AM | Link to this

jim:

Unfortunately, my fiancee’s 14 yo cousin’s mother allows her to both smoke and drink. (My fiancee says that the mother does NOT allow it, but daughter does it anyway. I say this is BS.) Fiancee’s sister condones this activity, even offering to let the cousin and her 14 yo friend have some Mike’s when we were at the beach last weekend. FORTUNATELY sane heads prevailed and those two bottles of Mike’s (along with the Corona I bought for myself and wound up not drinking) are sitting unopened in my fridge right now. May very well have to remedy that situation tonight though (particularly the Corona!)…

By jim d

May 11, 2007 9:08 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Just be sure to stop on the way home for a lime. :-)

By jim d

May 11, 2007 9:15 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

on a side note; I was drinking and smoking at 14—my parents did not condone it—but it made no difference, i was going to do it. It boils down to personal choice. No one could have stopped me at that point.

Today I still enjoy a “Good Scotch” and a fine cigar—but I don’t get behind the wheel when drinking.

By wwww

May 11, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this

Hasn’t it always been the case that some students drink the night of prom? Is this new?? I recall my parents talking about “friends” of theirs being drunk the night of senior prom, and that was in the mid ‘60’s. Honestly, while it’s wrong, I’ve always assumed underage drinking is just what happens. It was for my parents’ generation, and certainly for mine. Why would anything be different now? I think the main change now is that more parents just accept the behavior and even condone it - not the case with my parents or with me!

By One

May 11, 2007 9:21 AM | Link to this

Some high schools have much more social pressure among certain groups of kids, and some parents have a much more accepting attitude than others. Very true. I think it’s a combo of things….peer pressure/the groups mindset, parents (in)effectiveness, and how the child views him/herself.

Heeyyy JustMe, Happy Mother’s Day!!!

By Jeff

May 11, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this

jim:

I’m going to TRY to be a “fun” dad, but at the same time my kids are going to learn ONE lesson QUICK:

If dad catches you smoking or drinking before the legal age, you WILL come under such strict surveillance/ lockdown that prisoners in Solitary at Supermax will look down on you with pity.

By JustAThought

May 11, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this

Something to ponder…..when I was a teen and was drinking and smoking, it wasn’t because that’s what my “friends” were doing. It was because that’s what my older siblings were doing. Had it not been for trying to hang with and be like them, I would not have done either of those nearly as early. I know that this is not always the case, there are some siblings who try to lead by example, and I applaud that! Just a thought…..

By WFC

May 11, 2007 9:29 AM | Link to this

I’m 40 years removed from my prom and 32 years removed from my first year of teaching. I find very little has improved in schools since those days but one thing has: limos and party busses for prom night! Some people see these as ostentation. Not me. I see them as a guarantee that none of those kids will be driving under the influence on prom night… a very good thing!

By jim d

May 11, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

Just for the record www, I grew up in the 60’s and didn’t have a drop to drink on prom night. As I recall, and memories are a bit fuzzy these days, I had other “distractions” those nights.

Low cut backless gowns and attractive ladies are still a welcome distraction.

By jim d

May 11, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

When I was young and foolish I felt as you do. Today however with a child at an age where he may still make stupid choices I find myself more concerned with issues of safety for him and others. Giving an option of no guestions asked could not only save his life, but possibly yours and your loved ones. I opt to make that option availabe to him in hopes he’ll make the right call rather than risk an innocent life.

While I pray he doesn’t make poor decisions in this reagrd, I feel I must be realistic. Children don’t always do what it is we wish they would.

By JustMe

May 11, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this

Hi One.

Happy Mother’s Day to you, too! A bit early on this.

But, I hope that everyone has a great weekened….

By Jeff

May 11, 2007 9:42 AM | Link to this

jim:

agreed on the gowns. However, I’ve found they don’t even have to be low-cut. Put a nice form fitting ankle-length dress on a decently attractive lady… if I wasn’t about to be married, she could have me at the drop of a hat! (and I may very well be the one dropping the hat!) :P

By wwww

May 11, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

Jim d @ 9:38:

Excellent point!

By jim d

May 11, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this

So Jeff,

You have an ankle fetish? LOL

By Jeff

May 11, 2007 9:48 AM | Link to this

All:

I think it is time to join, as an executive in my company related this morning, the POETS club.

Not interested in poetry? Your loss.

(P*ss On Everything, Tomorrow’s Saturday!)

By jim d

May 11, 2007 9:56 AM | Link to this

Thanks www,

I’ve found a mosified version of the MADD contract works for our family.

Here’s a copy of one that they suggest.

http://www.madd.org/under21/0,1056,5945,00.html

MADD is a great organization. If you currently aren’t supporting them please consider doing so. They provide a link at the web site to make it easy.

By jim d

May 11, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

To all,

Here’s a closer version of a contract I’ve signed with my child. I highly recommend, if you don’t have such a contract, that you do a bit of homework and consider the many safety issues that might be avoided by having one.

http://www.sadd.org/pdf/05SADDCFLFS_2.pdf

By DB

May 11, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

I’m 99.9% certain that my two teenagers haven’t had any alcohol, but with one going to college next year, we’ve had several frank talks about how drinking was a “learning experience” when I was in college in the 70s, but is now illegal and lands you in jail with a police record. With a college-bound kid, we’re hearing the campus stories from parents of slightly older kids — my favorite one was a kid at a large, exclusive midwest university who was arrested his first week of freshman year for possession (after going to a mixer and being arrested on-campus holding a tell-tale plastic cup), and ended up on probation for a year. A week after he was off probation, he and some friends went bowling and they drank, he didn’t. He demanded the car keys and was designated driver. They wanted to stop by the store to pick up some beer. He demured. They said, “OK, we’ll drop you off and drive back.” He didn’t want them driving drunk, so he stopped. Another kid went in with a fake ID, bought beer, brought it out to the car — and bam, the driver was busted by an undercover cop for underage transporting of alcohol. Another year probation …

In our case, it helps tremendously that their (private) school is ruthless when it comes to alcohol, on or off campus. It is clearly stated in the rules that kids will not drink, period, 365/24/7 while enrolled at this school. If you don’t like it, or you think it is an infringement on your personal liberties, then find another school. Kids have been suspended from school for drinking at New Year’s Eve parties when it got back to the administration. Some parents have complained it is a draconian policy to police kid’s behavior off-campus, but again — there’s the door if you don’t like it. Those kinds of expectations and the knowledge that those expectations will be vigorously enforced go a long way towards helping support kids who may find themselves in a peer-pressure situation.

I also like the policy above that inmates in Supermax will look upon the kid with pity … my kind of parent!

By Jeff

May 11, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

DB:

eh, my fiancee is more Jim’s style (nothing wrong with it per se, but DEF not my style!). Hopefully I’ll be able to show her what I haven’t been able to show her when we talk about my experiences in the classroom:

I know my rules can be draconian. They are specifically designed to be SOOO severe that you don’t want to risk them, but you better believe that I will not hesitate to bust your chops if you break them. HOWEVER, my rules are also extremely simple and actually quite reasonable. I have certain things (drinking, drugs, foul language, embarassing me in public, too revealing clothing) that I regulate INTENSELY. Other than that, however, I try to be very hands-off. I’m NOT one of the parents that will tell you not to touch the hot stove. I’m going to let you touch it, laugh at you, and THEN say something along the lines of “I wouldn’t do that again, it didn’t feel too good, did it?” And as long as you’re following my basic rules, you will probably not have a better friend than your dad. (Particularly with any sons that I have, we’ll probably wind up doing everything together other than while I’m at work or working to make him some siblings…)

By high school teacher

May 11, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

Some kids will drink/smoke/ do drugs regardless of how wonderful their parents are, but some kids will find the above very difficult to do if their parents are aware of their children’s friends.

Talk with your kids, and invite their friends over to your house often. Get to know your kids’ friends. Open your own house up to an after-prom party - but you need to be there too! Make sure that there is not any alcohol. My mother was very selective about the houses I was allowed to visit, but she always welcomed my friends to our house.

Last time I checked, kids still can’t buy alcohol. They have to have someone to get it for them. Maybe that’s where we should focus our efforts.

Parents, don’t be stupid. Having a stocked liquor cabinet with a teenager in the house is quite tempting for the poor teen, don’t you think? I enjoy an occiasional margarita (especially after a week of administering EOCT’s), but I don’t drink in front of my children. Some may view this as hypocritical, but I don’t. If you make kids’ access to alcohol difficult, they might not get themselves into trouble.

By JustMe

May 11, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

Regarding contracts with children….

They have proven to not work. Studies have been done with the “contracts” that were signed for children not to have premarital sex. This has been part of the billion dollar effort that Bush initiated to promote abstinence to fight STDs.

The studies showed that of those students that signed such a contract, a higher percentage engaged in sexual activities compared to those students that did not sign the contract.

Interestingly, those students that signed the contract simply tried to play word games to justify their behavior. For example, they said that oral sex wasn’t really sex.

By wwww

May 11, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

JustMe: Well, ANY contract trying to keep ANYONE from premarital sex is well …hilarious. It’s asking humans to ignore innate biological drives. Yah, right!

A contract over a different form of behvior, like drinking, might prove to be more effective - maybe, but I seriously doubt that one too.

By wwww

May 11, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

Jeff:

A word of advice from someone who’s been married a few years …you and your fiancee better get your differences of opinion on discipline figured out NOW. The differences you are describing are ones that are going to come back to bite both of you in the a$$ later on down the road, with or without children.

By jim d

May 11, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

just me,

I tend to agree withwww on the human instincts type contracts—I will say that behavoral contracts that clearly spell out what each party will do seems to open new communications. And THAT is what proves to be helpful.

By catlady

May 11, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

One thing I would suggest to parents is to study your child’s way of defining himself. My oldest has always been a more independent thinker: she has defined herself as “this is me and you can do what you want but if I think it is a bad idea I am not going along with you”. She is a very nice person, but won’t follow something just because others are doing it. My son, however, has defined himself as what he is NOT: he is not his mom, he is not his sisters. It would have been more helpful to do it the other way. The youngest is more like big sis, but with an attitude: here I am, like it or not. She doesn’t grant authority very easily, in the words of a wise friend, which has been useful in her life.

I am off—the youngest is graduating this weekend with a major in astrophysics and math. Anyone offer any job leads for someone who is interested in particle astrophysics?

By JustMe

May 11, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this

catlady-

Congrats regarding your son’s graduation! Is he interested in teaching? I would guess that many colleges would snap him up if he wants to teach and do research. GA State has a fairly good physics/astronomy/astrophysics department.

By OldSchool

May 11, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

catlady, tell your boy to hit up NASA for a job…maybe in the Slidel/NO area. A dear friend had the same major (plus a couple of doctorates) and worked there for many years. He was a huge part of the El Nino studies/database creation.

By high school teacher

May 11, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I echo wwww’s sentiments; y’all need to decide what type of disciplinarians you will be before the little ones are here.

Another rule of thumb: when it comes to how you will discipline children, never say never. In the days BC (before children), I would say, “Look at that child pitching a fit in this store! His mother ought to tan his hide! It will be a cold day before I let one of mine act like that!” Then my second son was born! I can tan his hide until he has no hide left, and he still pithces a fit in the store if he doesn’t get what he wants.

By Jeff

May 11, 2007 1:43 PM | Link to this

HST:

I’m betting she starts to see my side after a year or two at the HS level (she gets official Monday, but she’s been offered essentially her dream job. benefit is that it is about two miles - if that - from where we will be living).

But also note that while I do employ physical, I know that there are other things far more insidious that can be done to people, and I do employ those techniques as well. (“Time out” is in a room with NOTHING- not even windows - but a pallet. Granted, some kids would like that and/ or could entertain themselves in that environment. Essentially I find the kid’s version of Hades on Earth, triple it, and give it to em. Again, the object is not sadism, but making the punishment SOOOOO severe that the kid would rather do ANYTHING than get that punishment. Sometimes that means being unorthodox - even “cruel”.)

By jim d

May 11, 2007 1:43 PM | Link to this

Whats the matter with everyone today?

here it is going on two oclock and not one blogger has blamed the Mexicans and that silly little worm for teenage drinking problems. Whats up with that?

By Jeff

May 11, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this

jim:

It’s because we’re all looking forward to going to hang out with our friends Jack, Jim, and Jose tonight! :P

By V for Vendetta

May 11, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

Now that you mention it Jim …

Just kidding.

Look, this is what prom has always been about to some kids (a lot of kids?). I don’t think that’s ever going to change. Why we don’t spend more time talking about responsible behavior (designated drivers, birth control, etc.) and instead waste our time trying to pretend that it doesn’t happen I’ll never know.

They don’t all need to learn the hard way ya know (see: Brookwood quarterback).

By high school teacher

May 11, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Jeff, we used time out until he kept getting up and getting out of time out. Constant battle: we put him back, he gets up, etc. Then we used the “ugly rug,” an idea we obtained from the Super Nanny. It worked well… until he began to get up, move the rug where he wanted it, and then sit back down! He is the poster-child for James Dobson’s The Strong Willed Child. I was feeling great about myself as a parent until he turned 3. Our current discipline technique is to put him in his bed , or to take away his beloved “Teddy.”

By wwww

May 11, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Jeff:

Remember, you are talking about children, not war criminals. Discipline for a child probably should not include the words “cruel” or “insidious”. I don’t know you, and this is a blog, and it’s hard to infer tone in the written word, so I realize this may not be how you meant to sound. But please, please remember that children need firm, consistent discipline with a healthy dose of common sense and unconditional love. It’s hard to go wrong with that formula.

By Jeff

May 11, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

wwww:

Life aint gonna break my kid. I will. If I have to be Satan to this kid to prevent him from REALLY hurting himself, I will. Remember, life is NOT gentle, and her lessons can be DEADLY. I have one objective: making sure that old age is listed as the cause of death on my child’s death certificate. I will do what it takes to achieve that objective, as much as is in my control. And when it comes to my child and his actions, EVERYTHING is under my control until he turns 18 and moves out. If something other than old age kills my kid, rest assured it wasn’t because it was anything I could have prevented in any way.

By To"highschoolteacher"

May 11, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

Run (don’t walk, run ) to the bookstore and check out John Rosemond’s parenting books.

You’ll be glad you did.

By high school teacher

May 11, 2007 5:10 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the advice; I’ll check it out. My apologies for turning this into the MOMania blog!

Have a great weekend!

By Joy in teaching

May 11, 2007 5:29 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

About all I can say to you is WOW. I do not know if you mean to sound like such an overbearing….um…person, but that is what you are coming across as.

The tactics you claim to plan to use for your future children are very similar to what you used when you taught. They weren’t very successful then, either, according to your own admission.

One has to work with children, not against them.

By Joy in teaching

May 11, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

About all I can say to you is WOW. I do not know if you mean to sound like such an overbearing….um…person, but that is what you are coming across as.

The tactics you claim to plan to use for your future children are very similar to what you used when you taught. They weren’t very successful then, either, according to your own admission.

One has to work with children, not against them.

By jim d

May 11, 2007 5:57 PM | Link to this

And a happy mothers day to all you sweet ladies. Have a great weekend.

By Jeff

May 14, 2007 8:23 AM | Link to this

Joy:

MY child, I can and WILL control. MY child won’t give teachers the fits those students gave me, because he will KNOW that if Dad finds out about it, there WILL be Hades to pay.

The problem is NOT my strong arm tactics - indeed, these very tactics have been proven to work for CENTURIES. The problem is all the soft bellied parents these days that think they have to be their child’s “friend”.

By jim d

May 14, 2007 9:14 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

“Most suicides occurred because the individual felt disconnected from their community, family and friends;

One sure way to diconnect from kids, my friend, is to severly punish them for everything you deem is undesireable. But hey, you will figure that out when you have kids of your own. Till then, keep preachin brother.

By Jeff

May 14, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this

jim:

MOST things I’m not going to be so harsh about. (Remember the example earlier: I’ll probably laugh at my kid and say “Hurts, don’t it” when he touches the hot stove rather than freaking out about it like many parents these days would.) In truth, my parenting style is much like the one God Himself used with Adam and Eve: You can do dang near anything you want, but here are the exeptions. Do as I have ordered you not, and you WILL die (or, my kids’ case, THINK they have died!) As long as you DON’T do those things I have ordered you not, you will have no greater friend. I love you regardless.

By jim d

May 14, 2007 9:32 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Sorry friend but your comparing yourself to God had me rolling on the floor.

By Jeff

May 14, 2007 9:40 AM | Link to this

jim:

May be funny, but isn’t He the One we are supposed to model our actions after?

By jim d

May 14, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Are you up for a challenge today?

I challenge you to provide hard evidence that punishment other than death effectively alters behavior. Please start with the recidivism rates in our prisons.

By jim d

May 14, 2007 9:49 AM | Link to this

Uhm Jeff,

Not if you believe as I do. That he sent us a model.

By jimsmom

May 14, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this

Dear Jeff,

I have lurked on this blog for over 2 years. I am a substitute teacher, and I follow this blog to learn and keep up to date with some of what is going on in education. I am mother to an autistic fourth grader and I enjoy this blog because of the breadth of the experience and comments here on a variety of subjects. It is extremely rare that I join in the discussion, because so many of you here say what I might desire to say, and say it with much more elegance and authority than I ever could.

In this case, as a pastor and counselor, I simply beg you to do TWO THINGS. Please make sure your fiancee reads everything you post on this blog. I can’t stress enought how many marriages are destroyed because one or both spouses go into the marriage with the hidden agenda of “s/he will come over to my side when….” Please get competent pre-marital counseling to take the opportunity to discover how you each truly feel on a variety of important issues like finances, sex, and child rearing. I am not saying you two won’t make it. I am saying that the road will be much smoother for you both with plenty of preparation, open, honest communication, and the realization that sometimes it is better to be happy, and contribute to your partner’s happiness, that it is to always be right.

The very best to you both. I truly do wish you a lifetime of happiness in your career, marriage and future family life. Sincerely, SH

By catlady

May 14, 2007 6:16 PM | Link to this

Thanks, justme and oldschool, for your good wishes. My math/astrophysics major, however, is my daughter!

By OldSchool

May 16, 2007 6:54 PM | Link to this

Oops! Sorry catlady! My face is red…especially because most folks read about me being a former industrial arts teacher and think I’m a guy too. Instead, I was Georgia Southern’s first FEMALE industrial arts major and one of only a very few to teach in Georgia (back in the 70’s and 80’s). I’ve always worked in non-traditional jobs: cartographer, plant engineer, shop teacher. Guess it came from helping my dad put up grain bins when I was a kid.

Anyway, I’m sure she’ll be snapped up by someone who knows quality when it is presented! Best of luck to her!

By klm

May 17, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this

I see divorce, loss of parental rights, restraining orders for mom and kids, and charges of spousal and child abuse in Jeff’s future. His fiance needs to run away now, as far and as quickly as she can. What a scary guy.