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DEL.ICIO.USGraduation Standards: How High Is Too High?
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
State education officials are putting the finishing touches on their proposal for new graduation requirements, which could make it much tougher for some students, including career prep or vo-tech kids, to graduate in the future.
Many, including higher education officials and business leaders, are backing the revisions because they say students have been leaving ill prepared from Georgia high schools for far too long. (Although, the graduation requirements actually were last updated just five years ago.)
The changes in how many and which courses students must take to graduate will coincide with the phase-in of the state’s more rigorous public high school curriculum, and will be in effect starting with freshmen in August 2008.
As I’ve reported previously, State Superintendent of Schools Kathy Cox wants all public school students to leave high school having mastered at least the equivalent of algebra II. True to her word, the committee working on the new graduation requirements is expected to recommend that all basic skills math courses be eliminated.
This, of course, raises the question of whether all students, not just college prep kids, can succeed when forced to perform at a higher level. In other words: When raising graduation standards, are there consequences for overreaching?
UPDATE: In talking about the proposed diploma changes with State Board of Education members Wednesday, Cox repeatedly characterized the revisions — particularly in math — as “huge.” “This is so significant for the overwhelming majority of our kids,” she said. “In the past several years, only 20 percent of our students have graduated with algebra II or above.”
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Comments
By V for Vendetta
May 9, 2007 8:15 AM | Link to this
Yes there ARE consequences.
The questions should not be how high is too high, but rather how high is high enough? Right now, I don’t think we are anywhere close to being set up properly to graduate kids that are truly prepared for college. A few examples:
I was discouraged from giving twenty-word vocab quizzes each week to my COLLEGE PREP level students because that was considered too tough. Oh really? Twenty words is too tough for a kid who wants to go to COLLEGE?
We are also encouraged at my school to give more and more (and more and more …) grades to help kids to dilute any mistakes that they make. I fail to see how this prepares them for a college life where a person may receive three or four grades PER SEMESTER.
I’m all for getting tougher on the kids and tougher on the expectations, as long as that means that I can actually BE TOUGHER. To me, it’s all talk at this point. As long as these examples I’ve mentioned take place, we are NOT doing our jobs (and remember, I’m at one of the “good schools”).
Furthermore, if we are going to get tougher on the kids who (think) they are going to college, we MUST offer MORE choices for technical level students, not less. It is a ridiculous (and nearly unique to Georgia) assumption that ALL kids must attend some kind of post-secondary school. College is not always in the cards for some of these kids and it’s high time we realized that. Until that requirement is met, we cannot expect tougher standards to improve our state-wide education problems.
Maybe Gwinnett’s own Alvin Wilbanks is paving the way by worrying more about which kids are getting in trouble rather than the state of education in his own county or the state. Maybe Dekalb’s super is leading by example when he gets p** at hard hitting questions coming up at a board meeting.
Seems to me none of this matters until people are ready to put their money where their mouths are. Let me do my freaking job and I’ll produce some college-level kids! Just understand that they won’t ALL be college bound. Common sense? You’d think so.
By KA
May 9, 2007 8:29 AM | Link to this
We’ve discussed this several times, but here goes. School systems have turned education into a manufacturing venture with the goal of turning out homogenous products. The problem is that we are not all created equal. The student population has a wide range of intellect, creativity, and aptitudes. Higher academically oriented students who are college bound should have their educational needs met as well as the vo-tech group who will go onto work in the service industries, and work expertly with their hands and tools. WHY oh WHY can’t the powers that be NOT SEE THAT? They need to stop viewing the students like little widgets that are being mass produced, and actually THINK about how to educate a student population that can become productive working adults no matter what their ability or interests.
By JustMe
May 9, 2007 8:32 AM | Link to this
A high school diploma must mean something. It should be the result of hard work, learning the material, proving yourself as a student, etc. It should not be an entitlement simply because you are a certain age.
For many years, standards for K-12 have slipped. “Educrates” have tried to solve this problem by changing the QCCs to GPSs and doing other administrative stuff. But the high school graduates in GA still remain woefully unprepared. “Educates” implemented a graduation test, but after a few years this has been watered down so very much it is more on a middle school level of rigor.
I would suggest that the real slippage in standards occur in the individual classroom. Teachers have ‘surrendered’ from maintaining high standards because we are beat down by parents and administrators. Both of those groups continuously beat down teachers trying to get students to learn the content and perform in the classroom.
Parents want their individual child to get an A regardless of the fact to whether their child has done anything in the classroom. They will fight for their child even when they should know in their heart that their child hasn’t done anything. I have had parents fight for their child to make an A even though I caught their child ‘red-handed’ cheating on a unit test (and had the cheat sheet to prove it).
Administrators beat down teachers because they do not want to see a % of failures. Administrators simply look at the numbers. Half of the class may have done nothing all semester and deserve an “F”, but the administrators do not allow the teacher to give the grade deserved.
So, what is a teacher to do? Those of us that still want to help educate our children still try our best, but continue to get ‘beaten.’ Most of us finally give up and change careers out of disgust or simply stop teaching and ‘get the paycheck’ of the job. It is a no-win situation for teachers that give a damn.
The solution is to stop with the “Educrates” changing the stuff - it does not help. The solution is to support good teachers that are really trying to educate our students. The solution is for administrators to grow a backbone and stand up to outrageous parents and outrageous “educrates” demanding ridiculous and time consumming junk from teachers. Teachers should focus on the students and focus on educating them the best way possible.
By Rick in Lawrenceville
May 9, 2007 8:43 AM | Link to this
V for Vendetta: I agree that for college prep students you really can’t get too tough!
High school course material and tests should be structured to spread out all occupants on a bell curve. We should be challenging our best students until they see their own limits. Currently, we are bunching a large group of students with unequal abilities and motivation into those that get an ‘A’! Instead, we might as well be grading these students with a ‘P’ or an ‘F’.
Unfortunately, giving otherwise worthy students Cs and Ds won’t help them get into institutions of higher learning. This is something that has to be adjusted on a NATIONAL LEVEL.
However, for those students with a vocational interest, lets not subject them to quantum mechanics or the combustion kinetics of high temperature flames. Let these students follow their interests and develop skills that will serve them throughout a lifetime (I don’t believe the lifetime bit).
I do however, ask that the school system TEACH EVOLUTION to all students so that we don’t have to deal with adults that think the world is only 3000 years old and Noah’s Ark harbored all currently existing land species.
By Rick in Lawrenceville
May 9, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this
JustMe: just read your comment and you are right on!
Parents and administrators have ruined public education.
I mostly blame the administrators for not supporting their teachers. Very few administrators are worth the money we pay them. The biggest joke is Wilbanks in the Gwinnett county school system. I saw him get a physics teacher a couple of years ago on a “technicality”. I saw the physics teacher as having a lot more brains and credibility than the drivel from the school system management. Wilbanks is the kind of person that throws the baby out with the bathwater.
By Lee
May 9, 2007 8:52 AM | Link to this
Watching public education educrates at work is akin to watching a dog chase it’s tail; great sport for the spectator but extremely frustrating if you’re directly involved in the process (ie, students, parents, teachers, et al).
Somebody help me out here, there are students sitting in HIGH SCHOOL who are reading on an elementary school level and cannot master basic math functions, but the state DOE says that these same students are now going to “master Algebra II” and graduate under a more rigorous college prep curriculum?
LMFAO. Jeff Foxworthy cannot come up with material funnier than this.
Why is it that you people with your on-line education Phd’s cannot comprehend that the majority of students do not want, nor do they need, to go to college?
People ask me “Lee, why do you spend $15 grand per year to send your daughter to private school?”
There you go.
By Aquagirl
May 9, 2007 9:11 AM | Link to this
KA @ 8:29, interesting choice of words for your post. Whether or not people realize it, the modern educational system was constructed around the time of the industrial revolution. It’s designed to turn out passive rote assembly workers, not the kind of thinkers that we need today. That $15 K Lee is spending is the best bargain in the world.
By fed up
May 9, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this
OK, so EVERY child has to master Algebra II to graduate???? Let’s see, I graduated from high school with honors, pulled a 1300 on the SAT, graduated summa cum laude from my college (U of South Carolina) and with honors from my law school (Emory).
However, I very nearly failed Algebra II - I made a 46 on the final and barely passed with a D! So, I might not have graduated from high school??????
My next point.. how many times have I used by Algebra II skills in my adult life??? NOT ONCE!!!!!
The only way that they are going to get every child in GA to pass Algebra II is if they water it down so much that it doesn’t ever remotely resemble Algebra II.
Plus, I thought that they were changing the math standards in GA so that there is no such thing as Algebra II anymore. I thought it was just going to be “Math I, Math II, Math III,”..etc. What’s up with that?
By Jeff
May 9, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this
fedup:
Yeah, that’s essentially a cover up so that they can address highly advanced topics without people thinking of the topics as “advanced”. Most people think “hard” when they see “advanced”, and so I like the approach they are taking. I firmly believe that I could teach Abstract Algebra (a senior level, just prior to graduation with a BS Mathematics class) to 6th graders. Indeed, when I was teaching 6th grade, I was showing the basic concepts to one of my classes and they readily got it and were begging me for more…
By KA
May 9, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this
Aquagirl, Exactly!
By OldSchool
May 9, 2007 9:59 AM | Link to this
For those out there who think vocational students don’t need the higher maths, consider this: there is a whole lot of physics in an automobile engine. I’m so danged tired of beating this very dead horse! The technical courses offered by the technical colleges are NOT crip courses. They are not for the kids who can’t pass muster in a college prep high school program. Take land surveying for example: there’s a bunch of trigonometry and geometry involved as well as measurement and thinking out of the box. Trees don’t move out of the laser line and no one will tell you how to adapt to strange situations that pop up in the field.
What EVERY high school student really needs is real world applications of those required math, science, and language arts classes to go along with the theory and practice. That’s the fundamental difference in academic and technical courses. When you can see the physics in action or put the trig to practical use in the field…that’s when you will master the skill and understand its function.
So let the kids that can’t do much of anything flip burgers. They can learn basic hygiene and customer service. As for me, I want a knowledgeable and skilled mechanic, plumber, mason, electrician, drafter, LPN, glazier, landscaper, computer technician, medical transcriptionist, administrative assistant, cosmetologist, dental assistant, occupational therapy technician…get my drift? College may not be for everyone but technical school and high school CTAE programs are NOT for dummies.
By Sick of it
May 9, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this
So fed up is a high priced lawyer from Emory. I guess we shouldn’t tell him that the interest only ARM loan on his million dollar house was calculated using algebra since he obviously doesn’t need it. How do you decide how much to bill per hour and what kind of annual income that will generate without basic algebra? What a moron.
By V for Vendetta
May 9, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this
Exactly OldSchool! That’s why we need MORE technical classes, not less!
Rick, LOL! You mean you think it would be negative for kids to walk around thinking the Earth is only a few thousand years old and we were all inbred from one guy on a boat. You should see the looks on their faces when I talk about the epic story of Gilgamesh and how it contains the flood story nearly word for word. Oh, and it pre-dates the Bible by a few THOUSAND years.
By Janine
May 9, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this
Here we go with the smoke and mirrors routine again!! Mrs.Cox wants all students to MASTER Algebra II before graduation? Well, I would like world peace, but that isn’t going to happen either! So let’s see…they will RENAME Basic Math. THey will call it Alg. I and Alg. II. But because the students are in no way prepared for real ALgebra..[ i.e. some cannot do simple division, fractions, decimals ..]it will still be Basic Math. Let’s see just how much the politicians can put over on Ga. before we get the chutzpah to demand more.
By high school teacher
May 9, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this
Good point, fed up. I too, understood that the math classes were named Math 1, Math 2, etc.
The word on the street is that in our district, starting in 08-09, that we are doing away with the technical diploma. Everyone will receive a college-prep diploma. Additionally, every student must declare a technical or business pathway and must take at least three elective classes within this pathway. On a traditional 6-period day, this will wipe out the fine arts. I predict that my job as an English teacher will be phased out in the next 10 years. Students will be given a set of headphones with a computer to learn the art of grammar and writing. Literature will have no importance. Anyone looking for human resources people or trainers of new employees? Let me know where to send my resume.
I teach in public school because I feel that I can make a difference. The kids in private schools don’t need me; they’ll succeed no matter what. If I ever get out of teaching, it won’t be because of the kids; it will be because of impossible standards imposed by the educrats.
Also, (sorry, I’m on a roll today) the word “rigor” does not mean what you think. The dictionary definition of “rigor” is strictness, harshness, severity, rigidity, inflexibility. Do those sound like characteristics of a good teacher? Don’t count on a good evaluation if you show those traits in a classroom today. To the state dept, “rigor” simply means doing whatever it takes to get kids to pass the appropriate tests.
By JB
May 9, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this
The solution to problems in education are simple. They all boil down to responsibility.
Each student has the responsibility work for high achievement and maintain appropriate behavior.
Every teacher has the responsibility to work with students to achieve at their highest and communicate with important adults (administrators and parents) about advances and difficulties that each student exhibits while exhibiting appropriate behavior.
Every school and system administrator has responsibility of supporting teachers (through p.d., discipline, and other forms) to aid in performing their jobs while exhibiting appropriate behavior.
Every parent has the responsibility of teahcing appropriate behavior and supporting learning at home through discipline, learning opportunities, and teacher contact.
The community has the responsibility of supporting education through funding and moral support (showing up to the losing football team’s games, cheering on the academic successes, planning programs to help under achievers) and by appropriately punishing people who do not exhibit appropriate behavior.
Society has the responsibility of valuing hard work built on natural talent (not just one or the other) and for rewarding only those who contribute to society in a positive way while simultaneously trying to correct the inherent unequal opportunities that arise out of our past.
I didn’t say it was easy, just simple.
By RJ
May 9, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this
Actually sick of it, the math needed to determine how to bill clients wouldn’t be Algebra II, so your arguement is faulty.
I am a teacher-turned-realtor that doesn’t care for the current state of Georgia public schools. I’ve found that my daughter’s education in private school was far superior to my son’s in a national blue ribbon public elementary school. Go figure! I don’t think anyone thinks that higher math skills aren’t important, but it starts in elementary, if not pre-school. If a child can’t read basic words in Kindergarten, why should they be promoted to 1st grade where the vocabulary will be even more difficult? If they can’t read in 3rd grade, why are they promoted to 4th? This is no easy solution to the woes of the public school system. But we can’t put the blame on high schools. Those kids were below level in kindergarten!
By Janine
May 9, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this
ANyone remember : Former Dekalb super Johnny Brown mandated that all 8th graders take [be enrolled in ]Algebra. So all 8th graders were herded into classes labeled Alg. I…..What a mess!
By Rick in Lawrenceville
May 9, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this
Old School: I see your point and it is a good one. How about a solution.
How do we separate the kids based on ability and need for the more rigourous courses?
I think we need more career education.
I have two degrees, one in Chemistry, one in Math/Computer Science. Worked on a Ph.D in Chemistry for two years before I realized it wasn’t what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I’ve wondered for the last 25 years if I would have been happier being a cabinet maker…too scared and had too much else at stake to get off the hamster wheel. Never had a minute of career counseling in HS!
By PiedmontPark
May 9, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this
fed-up:
The whole point of teaching Algebra, Trig, Calculus et al is to teach you how to think logically. It doesn’t matter if you do not use math on a daily basis. It taught you how to think logically enough to become a lawyer.
By Sick of it
May 9, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this
Actually setting hourly rates should use algebra. Set them too low and you won’t be able to fufill the demand. Set them too high and there won’t be any demand. In order to optimize your overall annual income when billing by the hour you will need algebra. Now, whether that’s algebra 1 or 2, I must admit I’m so far removed from school to know in which course linear programming falls.
By common sense
May 9, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this
No shortage of educated dummies out there.
By Jeff
May 9, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this
Just looked at the old A2 (Algebra 2) QCC’s:
Check it out
I can see a direct need for the first 17 standards THROUGHOUT life, and while the rest aren’t AS useful, quite a few (including the Analytical Geometry ones) could be helpful in certain situations that everyone occassionally finds themselves in.
By Mindy
May 9, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this
If everybody could go to college being a college graduate would be meaningless. Oh wait, it is meaningless. Everybody I work with is “Dr.” Something and they couldn’t write a coherent paragraph between them. If you want to improve education, make it harder to get an education doctorate.
By rhino
May 9, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this
College isn’t for everyone and we should quit trying to make everyone eligible. We need to start taking the kids out of mainstream schools early on and putting them into vocational schools that will teach them a skill. Kids that don’t care about college aren’t going to learn from traditional methods. Let’s give them an opportunity to learn what they think is useful to them by application.
By not blonde
May 9, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this
Kids aren’t uniformly manufactured. How can you expect every child to adhere to the same standards. You need to teach them to READ early in school and constantly monitor their reading level and assign them to appropriate classes for their skills. Taking away vocational school is like shutting the door on some of these kids. From what I have seen of college students drinking and partying, I certainly hope everyone doesn’t want to go to college.
By OldSchool
May 9, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this
I really need to get this off my chest: it’s EDUCRATS (if you are going to combine educators and bureaucrats. If you are combining educators and wooden boxes, then you can use educrates.)
Also, “…we need more technical classes not FEWER.”
I cannot spell worth a flip and use far too many ellipses and commas but I know when to use LESS and when to use FEWER. I love stores with “10 Items or Fewer” checkout lines.
And by the way, 20% of careers require a college diploma while 80% require some sort of training…technical or otherwise. Check it out with the Dept. of Labor.
By OldSchool
May 9, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this
Rick in Lawrenceville, we had a really good thing when Industrial Arts existed in the schools. Kids got a taste of woodworking, metalworking, drafting, small engines, photography, printing, and an introduction to American Industry and career education. There was classwork and shopwork and it was a beautiful thing. I know because I taught Industrial Arts (one of a very few females that did.) That course fed into the comprehensive high school Trade & Industry courses: construction, metals, automotives, drafting, etc. (IA was also a great course for special needs students!)
But some “bureau-crate” decided we needed Technology Education instead and lots of tinkertoys with electricity were installed in schools and no funds made available to keep it updated. Here in South Georgia, Tech Ed leads pretty much nowhere and the modules are vintage 1996. I think technology has moved on since then.
There are good websites with career planning tests that kids can take to show their strengths and interests. The ASVAB will also do this but you get lots of mail from the armed forces when you take that one. There are resources in every public library, school media center and guidance department but getting students to explore them is difficult. It takes time and a bit of effort, not to mention imagination.
They all just figure they’ll go to UGA and major in something. Then they’ll graduate and do something. They just don’t know what and don’t want to know.
By Susan
May 9, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this
I’m a special ed teacher and have been for 27 years. The only solution for LD OHI,ADHD kids that can do well but don’t need a college prep diploma is for their parents to SUE to have appropriate goals written for them so they can go on to a 2-year college, a tech job, etc. It is not appropriate for all kids to take ALG II, just like all 8th graders shouldn’t HAVE to take Alg I. Gwinnett Co.seems to want to get rid of any kids who can’t perform at a certain level. It’ so their rate of students going to college will look great - just don’t look at the dropout rate!
By Amy
May 9, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this
Oh I love this topic! I could go on and on.
I graduated from high school in 1999, college in 2003 and a certification program in 2005. My high school (a “national school of excellence”) hardly prepared me for college. They didn’t even encourage anyone in my peer group to go to college because their primary focus was on the Magnet program (Or as we resident students referred to them as the “maggot” program). I was actually in the IMPACT program, a program for high achievers. My counselor actually told me I would not get into the college I applied to. HAHA! I was immediately accepted to that college. In fact, I was accepted to all of the colleges I applied to. I’d like to shove my degrees in her face. I was also accepted to a law school. Neener neener Mrs. H. (sorry for the childish antic)
Once I started college, it became clear to me that I had not been taught nearly enough information. I had not read as many books as the other students had read and I certainly did not know as much about science and history as they did. As far as math goes, I had already taken several Algebra and Calculus classes in high school so I started out in an upper level Calculus course. Maybe that was one place where my high school did not go wrong.
I think Georgia public schools need to step it up and that includes not only the curriculum but the discipline problems (Another topic I could go on and on about).
I feel like I was given “busy work” in high school everyday and learned nothing. The college work load was tougher but much lighter on time. I could actually focus on my assignment and do well because I had the time to do so, not just one night.
Georgia public high schools are horrible and I would never send my children to one. It’s time for change!
By V for Vendetta
May 9, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this
Rick, I love your point you make here about sometimes regretting your decisions later in life. I always had dreams of directing and/or writing movies, but when I was in college I decided it wasn’t a “stable” enough career so I just chose something else. I didn’t enjoy doing it, so I switched to education. While I DO enjoy this job, I regret not following my gut when I had the chance.
How do we teach kids about that when we are so busy dumbing down education? How can we possibly expect them to be prepared for college (much less LIFE) when we are too busy worrying about whether or not stuff is “too hard.” (hint: it’s NOT too hard, not even close!)
By catlady
May 9, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this
Here’s what’s gonna happen: if we do “make” everyone take Algerbra 2 or whatever to graduate, it will be dumbed down so that it is no longer Algrebra 2 (we can’t hurt anyone’s self-esteem). OR we won’t dumb it down and more kids will fail, drop out, go to night school, or take GEDs to get away from the requirement. OR we could mandate that students coming to high school have basic skills in reading/math to qualify for high school level work (but that isn’t going to happen, see number 1 above) and thus end social/self-esteem promotion, OR we can identify things everyone graduating from high school should know and refuse to give a diploma if they don’t (see number 1 above). I’d give a bet it will be the first. And we’ll shoot ourselves in the feet (or higher) again.
Why can’t we have people in decision-making positions that KNOW anything about what they are deciding?
By Bushwacker
May 9, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this
rick in lville, there is NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF that we evolved from apes regardless if you belive in God or not. Unless your going to teach creationism as well and let students decide what they believe, then no evolution in the classroom.
By Lori
May 9, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this
I would like to say the standards to graduate are to high. I mean look at the instance in Newton County, you have a young girl with a “B” average and she can’t walk just because of the graduation testing??? I mean seriously, I think the Board should be concerned with teachers actually teaching a subject versus cramming so much information in just to pass the CRC or graduation test. In my opinion, why would one want to work so hard to be an A,B student when they can’t even walk with their graduating class.
By OldSchool
May 9, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this
Adding a math course to high school graduation requirements isn’t really such a bad idea IF students are actually getting a solid math foundation in the early grades. Would it be so awful to require memorizing the times tables? How about teaching measurement? Elementary kids don’t need calculators. Their brains are more than adequate for that. Teach them penmanship too. They can get computers in middle school (where they really need keyboarding classes to be mandatory for every child.) Put them in PE and let them run around. How about instituting DEAR: Drop Everything And Read programs for everyone from the janitor to the principal. Require reading in every class and encourage parents to read to their kids. Reading is fundamental to just about everything educational and everyone needs to get over this “I hate reading” and just READ!
Or I could just raise your kids for you. I did an amazing job with my two!
By Aquagirl
May 9, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this
Bushwhacker is right. It’s so distracting when those kids suddenly mutate their DNA in History class and become a different species. Let’s keep evolution where it belongs, like, everywhere on the planet except in the heads of small-brained people.
By meme
May 9, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this
We have dumbed down education so much in the past 30 years that it is time for us to toughen it up again. Georgia is almost on the bottom! We have to get better.
By Todd
May 9, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this
Too many students are graduating who shouldn’t. The high school diploma is nowadays worthless, just as the bachelor’s degree has become. With few exceptions, now you must get even higher to find a decent job or get promoted.
Yes we have many kids who don’t graduate after taking the exact same graduation test five times, but what do you expect from these kids? If they are that stupid, then that is their fault. We are now wasting tax payer dollars sending kids to college of whom 50% then drop out their freshman year. There is an investment down the toilet.
Get these kids a technical job and teach them something worth teaching. How to be an electrician, mechanic, plummer, computer technician, construction worker, truck driver, etc.
We teach none of this, and expect our kids to do something when we know for a fact half will not make it through high school and another half will drop out the first year of college.
By Cletus Snow
May 9, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this
You can keep on dumbing down until you get to the lowest commom denominator,then what? Kids are graduating from H/S now who can’t properly fill out an employment application or read well enough to take the drivers license test.How much more can we dumb down,we need to set some standards and keep them, let’s not bring our brightest down lets bring the less able up.We spend far too much time attempting to teach those who have no desire to learn and teaching troublesome thugs and not nearly enough on the students who have the desire to soar.
By high school teacher
May 9, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this
Much of this debate has to do with entitlement vs privilege. Are all kids entitled to graduate from high school, or is that a privilege that is reserved for those who are smart enought to pass the necessary courses and graduation tests? If a student fails the graduation tests, is that the fault of the student or the collection of teachers? I say collection because all teachers have a role in a child’s education, not just the ones at the end of the line.
I am seeing a difference at the elementary level. My son is in kindergarten, and he is now reading, doing simple addition and subtraction, and also knows a few presidents! He asked me the other day who was on Mt. Rushmore; he said that they talked about it at school. So where do we lose them?
By holdingAJCaccountable
May 9, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this
So the standards are going to be raised…by a Supt. who wanted to bring creationism in the schools as part of the science curriculum.
Yeah THAT gives you a lot of confidence in the Stupidintendent (oops, typo)
By wwww
May 9, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this
bushwacker: Without getting into a theoretical debate about the beginnings of life, the evolutionary theory you describe is not taught as a fact, but merely one possible SCIENTIFIC explanation to answer many of life’s most challenging questions. It would be difficult to teach a biology course without describing Darwin’s survival of the fittest, which is part of his larger work on evolutionary theory. As educators, we must remain aware of the fine line differentiating personal opinions, scientific theory, and theological beliefs. So please understand the issue of evolution in the schools is not as easy as you seem to believe.
Graduation requirements: Again we are repackaging and renaming the same old s—-. Nothing is really changing, except we are getting rid of valuable classes that appeal to students who are not college bound but instead wish to learn a trade and begin their careers. So, a turn for the worse, if that was even possible. Depressing.
By John
May 9, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this
I’m 45 years old and things have changed in our country in the world in the past twenty years to the point where we can no longer leave public education at the status quo. The kids of today will not just be competing with other U.S. citizens in the future. Already we have contract workers from 3rd world nations here on work visas taking the jobs that U.S. citizens would love to have. We have jobs being exported to 3rd world countries. We have technology and education workers imported from other countries. Why? All in the name of money. Corporate CEOs are making more money than ever, corporate profits are up higher than ever (and that’s good for us stockholders), but workers salaries are floundering as corporations seek to reduce salaries and further increase profits.
The only defense for our kids is going to be having the best education of any of the people in the marketplace.
This is no longer a U.S. economy, but a world economy. For those of you who choose to keep your head in the sand….good luck to your kids….
By jack
May 9, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this
The world needs ditch diggers too.
By vigs
May 9, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this
Lori, you just supported the argument…can we say grade inflation? Obviously, she is not really a B student if she cannot pass the graduation test.
By Neal Kelley
May 9, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this
My Engrish isn’t too good.. I was endu-mu-kated in da current sckool sistem…. Pleeze dunt raize the stantards..
By donny
May 9, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this
I have read all the post on here and i know for a fact one of the biggest problems that we face is that parents are not doing there part in most cases.Think about it,you have parents let’s say from 40 years old and younger who have been apart of the drug era and alot of parents used drugs at one time or the other.Now you have the product(the child)from that.There are alot of crack babies walking around,you have kids who’s parents smoked alot of dope or used it in some form or another.This is the reason our kids can’t learn.It doesn’t matter what you change,until you change how the parents take care of their bodies before the child is born nothing will change.
By fed up
May 9, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this
Sick of It - Algebra I is necessary for my life. However, Algebra II skills have not been useful for me at all - nor has Calc.
I don’t have a million dollar house and I don’t work for a big firm so I’m not a millionaire. I make a good living working for a corporation in house but I can assure you that there are people far better off than me.
I’m not sure why you were so insulted. All I was trying to say is that it is silly to require Algebra II of EVERYONE to graduate because I have done quite well even though I nearly failed it. If I had failed it, I still would have become a lawyer… Unless, of course, I lived in Georgia in 2008 when the new graduation rules will have taken effect. If that were the case, I would not even be a high school graduate even though I got a 1300 on the SAT and was an honor student.
If you can become a lawyer and make six figures without Algebra II then I don’t see why EVERYONE must have it to graduate. Anyone who wants to go into a field that requires advanced math skills needs that and a good bit of Calculus, but there are lots and lots of professions that don’t require even advanced Algebra.
Requiring Algebra II of EVERY idiot out there will just mean that the standards will watered down so the people who really want to take Algebra II and need to take it for their careers will not get a decent education.
Sorry you were insulted Sick of It, I was just trying to make a point of how silly all of this is. I wasn’t trying to brag.
By CobbCoian
May 9, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this
Todd @12:59:
The high school diploma is not worthless because we are graduating people who shouldn’t - the high school diploma is “worthless” only because most jobs and careers now require a 4-yr degree. In a few more years my BS degree will be “worthless” because I will need at least an MBA to advance. Children spend 12 years in school and because they can’t pass one test, they can’t graduate? This is just silly. Some people just don’t take tests well, no matter how many times they take it. It does not make them stupid and does not mean they shouldn’t graduate. I have 2 friends that recently graduated from medical school who barely eeked out enough on the SAT/ACT tests, this does not make them stupid either. I do agree we need more vocational studies, not less.
By MrsK
May 9, 2007 1:43 PM | Link to this
Lori, Teachers teach to the tests because according to NCLB, if kids don’t pass tests, we lose our job. It will be very hard for a teacher to get hired someplace else after getting dismissed for “failing students.”
Of course, we should be at 100% passing the graduation exam by 2012, right?
Oh wait…
By DB
May 9, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this
Why aren’t there two tracks in high school — college prep and general? The college prep track would have one set of requirements getting students ready for college, the general track would have a different set, concentrating on basic mastery of a general education. I think this would acknowledge the fact that not every child is college material. There’s nothing wrong with that — goodness knows, most auto mechanics make more after 4 years of work than the high-falutin’ summa cum laude English majors after 4 years of college! I think the biggest mistake that we make is assuming that every child must be prepared for college. It’s not true, and the freshman drop-out rate just confirms it.
By tony
May 9, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this
As a University professor I have to comment here. Education is not a right nor is it a piece of paper, it is a state of mind, a consciousness of reasoning and the world around us, it is an intellectual skill. We are not born with it. It is not passed down. And dispite the cost of it, it cannot be purchased. Every year I meet intelligent thoughtful students who have the potential to make vital contributions to our society and the world as a whole. But every year I also see some of those students who lack the skill and training necessary to achieve that potential. I literally have students who cannot write a coherent sentence, have poor reading comprehension skills because they rarely read a book, have no awareness of great literature, history or the arts. They hunger for the nourishment they not only have been denied but have been made ignorant of. To compete and succeed in this world takes talent but such talent lies fallow if the knowledge and skills necessary to make you stand out and perform well are not present. How dare any of you ask the question are the standards too high? Would you ask if your childs dreams and desires are too high? Would you tell your child have no ambition you will enjoy life more- ignorance is bliss you know. Will you support your child for the rest of his or her life because the standards for success in todays world are too high? Are you so self absorbed that the idea that your child might learn, know more, and possibly be more successful than you is a threat? You should not be asking are the standards for my child too high? You should be demanding that the education standards for your children are the highest they can be. And by the way, that means having high standards for graduation at any level.
By I_Teach
May 9, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this
I teach-elementary (hush, my kids are at recess now); my son is in HS. He is in a tech prep program….one that does NOT prepare him for the GHSGTs. It makes NO difference, however, that he has never had chemistry, physics, or anything beyond physical science and biology; he is to pass that Science test or not graduate.
How about finding other ways to determine whether students are prepared to move on? Not everyone goes to college. GA is unrealistic-in assuming all should take the SATs and ACTs (my son won’t), and thinking kids who have not had advanced classes will do well on those tests, or the GHSTs. There’s a reason that the science test has such a HIGH failure rate.
Testing? All I’ve done since April is TEST TEST TEST my students.
I for one, am sick to death of it. We only teach now what the are in the standards-we’re not allowed to teach stuff just because it’s interesting-no time. I miss those days!
By phyllis long
May 9, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this
I do think these so called graduation test are needed to a point. Students put in a lot of time making the grade and getting the units to make it to graduation. The one thing that is so terrible is that if you don’t pass the graduation tests, you don’t walk with the class, that is not right, my daughter graduated last year, she was lucky that walked with her class, she still has to take the science and social studies test to get a special ed diploma. If the had passed the tests while in school she would have gotten a regular diploma, so now if she goes back and takes the tests, she will only get a special ed diploma, technical schools don’t except those, so what should she do, she did all the review classes, took the test 6 times. She is very frustrated, who wants to keep goning back and taking the tests, kids are cruel even when they are not in school. I DON’T THINK THAT MY CHILD SHOULD HAVE PENILIZED BECAUSE SHE JUST LEARNED A DIFFERENT WAY. All kids deserve to walk with their class, no matter what. My heart goes out to all those students who will not be walking with their class. THE ONLY WAY THAT SOMETHING WILL CHANGE IF IT INVOLVES A CHILD THAT HAS A MOM OR DAD IN A REAL INPORTANT POSITION RELATED TO THE SCHOOL BOARD. I WOULD LOVE TO SIT DOWN AND TALK TO MY SCHOOL (COBB COUNTY SCHOOLS.
By Janine
May 9, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this
Sounds like everyone here is aware that there is no class, no test, no thing that everyone is going to pass…even if, as many have pointed out , it is “dumbed down” to the lowest common denominator. If we all know that, and judging by the posts here, we all do…..WHAT IS IT WITH THE DECISION MAKERS??? Have their brains turned to jelly? or are they just playing the good politician and saying what sounds good….in a sound bite???!!
By Janine
May 9, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this
DB..The subject of your post has been discussed here ad infinitum! However, the politicians make the decisions and most of them are apparently brain dead when it comes to the subject.
By Filbert
May 9, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this
Many moons ago, our educational system used to spend entire years on the basics: addition, subtraction, multiplication, long divisions, etc. I did not even take geometry until the 8th grade. Then came the liberal educators who fretted we were producing robotic clones, lacking in humanities, self-esteem, and joy. So they watered down the curriculum, introduced such concepts as social promotions, etc. Now we.re open to just about any theory of education. here in georgia, elementary students get a few weeks of this, a few weeks of that. When asked whether the student really learned anything, the pat reply is it will be reinforced when that subject comes around again. Will I’ve got news for you. You have to learn it first to reinforce it later. The big problem is students nowadays are not permitted to truly master a skill set before moving on. Mastery allows a student to build upon a firm foundation to advance, and a house is only as good as its foundation. Get rid of block instruction, go back to rote learning of basics, save advanced subjects such as algebra, calculus, trig, etc. for upper middle school and high school. One example that stands out is a lot of my neighbors who come from school systems outside georgia come down here and a lot of their children end up in our various honors programs. Our educational systemis horrible, the bottom of the nation (and spare me the feeble all kids take the SAT excuse). We need to go back to the basics and ensure our kids have a solid foundation before moving on. It would also help if professors actually taught their respective subjects to their students along with differing positions to get our kids to learn to think for themselves instead of indoctrinating them with their particular outlook. I had one professor tell a bunch of freshman students that the real reason Washington DC did not have congressional representation was because whites wanted to deny blacks additional representation in Congress. Sort of ignores the whole history of DC doesn’t it. Educators, we need to get a system in place which mandates mastery, and builds from there.
By wwww
May 9, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this
tony, you hit the nail on the head. thank you for your thoughtful and well written response. It was refreshing to read!
By Sick of it
May 9, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this
Fed up, Granted I made an assumption about your finances based on your law degree from Emory. That said, I am constantly amazed/horified that intelligent hard working individuals are all too happy to “admit” their poor grades in math (regardless of level). Afterall, math provides a sound grounding in the application of logic and problem solving which are valuable to all professions. What hopes do our children have when their parents say not learning math is no big deal, or don’t worry I flunked it too. I’m a statistician by trade and an adjunct professor on the side. I see the products of our high schools and I’m worried. The students that come into my class can not do the basics, let alone break down a problem and pose a solution. What’s worse, is comments like yours give them the impression that that’s OK.
By Silence is not Golden
May 9, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this
http://www.silentepidemic.org/
The Summit May 9, 2007 | Washington DC
The “Summit on America’s Silent Epidemic” launched a national movement to end the high school dropout crisis, including a sea change in education policy at the local, state and federal levels. More than 500 superintendents, teachers, parents, students, state and federal policymakers and other education and community leaders attended the summit where they exchanged ideas and will continue to be a part of the on-going effort to address this crisis.
At the summit more than 100 organizations representing a broad spectrum of education and community stakeholders endorsed a 10-point plan that would raise state compulsory school age requirements, establish more challenging college and work preparatory learning in high schools, support parents’ roles in keeping students in school, establish early warning systems to support struggling students and demand accurate graduation and dropout data.
The 10-point plan and many of the other materials shared at the summit can be found below. Summit Materials
* A Blueprint for Ending America's Silent Epidemic (PDF) * Fact sheet on the high school dropout epidemic. * Education Week's Chris Swanson released a new online tool that makes it possible to learn the graduation rate of every school district in the nation, as well as the grade level each district tends to lose students. Such data can help communities effectively target solutions that reduce dropouts. * The May 9 summit showcased a 10-point plan endorsed by more than 100 organizations, which provides concrete action items that leaders at the local, state, and federal levels can take to end the silent epidemic. * Professor Robert Balfanz of Johns Hopkins University released What Your Community Can Do to End its Dropout Crisis. (PDF) * Civic Enterprises released Raising the Compulsory School Age: The Case for Reform. * MTV released its The Dropout Chronicles * Professor Russell Rumberger of the University of California Santa Barbara showcased the Dropout Research Project, which provides a regularly updated list of the latest research across the nation on the issue of high school dropout and graduation. * The National Governors Association's Center for Best Practices released Implementing Graduation Counts: State Progress to Date (PDF). * 10 Steps to a Local SummitBy Amanda
May 9, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this
I don’t think there is a “too high.” Maybe there’s a point where pushing little kids is ridiculous, but high school students, college-bound or not, need to take responsibility for their actions and education. You have to work for what you really want. That’s what separates those who succeed from those who don’t. If a student in high school doesn’t feel challenged, then do outside work. After all, if all you feel you received was busy work, that should have left plenty of time to go out on your own and read more books or research things and ideas that interested you. Sooner or later, people need to start taking responsibility for their own destinies whether it’s trade school, college or some other path.
By catlady
May 9, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this
BTW, the reason Georgia’s grads are ill prepared, IMHO, is not due to the changing of requirements. It is due to the lack of enforcement of “requirements” like passing CRCT (or passing classes) at our school, which has absolutely NO EFFECT on whether a child goes on or not. They will be sent on, no matter what. That is a large reason for so many ill-prepared students. Middle and high school teachers cannot teach subject matter to kids who cannot read.
By catlady
May 9, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this
IMHO, state department of ed officials have to trot out these new “reforms” or “requirements” to justify their jobs. Better, instead, to use the money directly for instruction, empower the teachers in a meaningful way for instructional and behavior decisions, and GET OUT OF THE WAY.
By CDog
May 9, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this
If you are genuinely concerned about your child’s education, you will get you kid out of public schools. Work two jobs, work three jobs, live in a trailer, eat pine cones and drink creek water if it takes that to afford it. Homeschool, private school, Christian school, or not school - anything is better than public school. Demand your tax money back as well when you pull your child out. You will find out exactly how “free” we aren’t.
Visit the Alliance for Separation of School and State at www.schoolandstate.org
By Joy in Teaching
May 9, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this
When I was a high school teacher, I blamed middle school teachers for sending me students who were unable to write a complete sentence, do simple math, or read and understand a paragraph.
Now that I am a middle school teacher, I blame the elementary school teachers for sending me students who are unable to write a complete sentence, add or subtract, or read and understand a paragraph.
Wanna know where the real problem is?
The real problem are the spineless administrators and BOE members along with overly sympathetic teachers and parents who raise hell because little Johnny might be held back because he can’t read.
Kids are very, very seldom held back these days.
In my county, the county administration SAYS that 8th graders will not be promoted to the 9th grade if they fail the 8th grade writing test, specific portions of the CRCT, or fail 2 or more course.
The reality is…last year, my school retain 6 students…when there were at least a 100 others who should have been held back…but were promoted because we weren’t allowed to retain them.
Guess who will probably become a drop out statistic in high school?
Kids learn pretty quick that standards which aren’t adhered to are worthless.
By fed up
May 9, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this
Sick of It - It’s not OK to not know the basics of math and to not be able to work through a problem. Algebra II is not the basics of math. Basic math goes through Algebra I.
If you are college bound it is not OK to fail Algebra II (which I didn’t fail, btw). FYI, I went on to AP Calc and pulled a B and took Calc again in college and made and A.
Algebra II was just a problem for me… could have been my teacher… could have been that I just didn’t apply myself. I had a B going to the final and made a 46 on the final… I actually thought that the 46 was the points off and 64 was my grade.. then my teacher informed me that 46 was actually my grade!
Anyway, we need SET here to help explain this, but I will try again. Kids on the left of the bell curve are probably only going to be capable of passing a very watered down Algebra II class…. a class that the vast majority of them will never need, particularly if they are on the left of the bell curve.
There are lots of occupations that don’t require Algebra II skills and you can get critical thinking in ways other than mathematics. Not all kids think mathematically. My daughter has a friend who is an outstanding writer - she has won two district wide awards. She is terrible at math. It’s not OK to be terrible at math, but she can have a very good career without advanced math. Advanced math is not the be-all end-all of the universe. It may be for you since you are a statistician, but not everyone wants to be a statistician.
My dad grounded me for most of the summer after my Algebra II grade. I would do the same to my kids b/c I know that they are capable of not only passing Algebra II but also doing well. My question is… What does it do to our education system when we require kids with an IQ of 80 or so to pass Algebra II?
It does one of two things…. it either forces the kid out of school without even a high school degree or it forces the standards for Algebra II down so that it’s not even remotely Algebra II anymore.
By JustMe
May 9, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this
Joy in Teaching -
You hit the nail on the head!
What you discuss is “social promotion.” This is alive and strong in elementary and middle school. For whatever reason, administrators are afraid to hold back students.
And, kids are smart. They quickly figure out that since Sally did no work last year and was promoted any way, what is the point of learning or doing work? So, eventually most all of them stop any effort whatsoever.
Those kids end up in high school where the GA law requires for them to pass certain classes, they have EOCT, and they must pass te GHSGT. Those kids simply are then unable to learn all of the content that they missed in elementary and middle, so they just drop out. And, we wonder why the high school drop out rate is high?
The CRCT was supposed to fix this problem. However, there are too many exceptions and loop holes. Students can fail the CRCT (twice!) and still get promoted on to the next grade.
So, the charade continues. Teachers give up hope of the kids ever really learning anything because the kids really don’t have to.
By Blind Homer
May 9, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this
We need more differentiation, not more sameness, so the entire plan to move to one seal and require Algebra II is terrible. I just wonder how all the we’re all one and we’re all okay approach turns out? When those high self-esteem kids wind up bagging groceries at Publix the rest of their lives, are they happy? And fed up is right, you can only get the 80 IQ’s to pass Alg II by making it look alot like 4th grade math.
By Lisa B.
May 9, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this
I’ve heard for several years that End of Course tests were going to eventually replace the High School Graduation Test. When is that going to happen? It doesn’t make any sense for students to take a test on subjects they haven’t even taken, or on subjects taken two years ago. If the End of Course tests are so good, why do we still have the HSGT at all? All this testing is horribly expensive!
By iron maiden
May 9, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this
As a 9th-grade English teacher, I have about 30% of my students fa… I mean “below passing”. My county has mandated a “Recovery Program” because the poor little things just need a few more chances. I am losing my mind trying to accomodate the constant demand for makeup work. And looking at middle school records, I see most of the poorly performing students didn’t pass language arts in middle school and also failed the CRCT. Now that they’re bombing again, guess what? They get to take 10th English next year! A missing 9th English credit is considered a summer school option or for seniors on their way out the door. Please help!!! I’ve fallen down a rabbit hole!
By Gene
May 9, 2007 5:25 PM | Link to this
When are educators going to admit that they are a business. No different than any other. The more requirements … the more problems … the more time … therefore, more money into their budgets!!
Kids don’t have living skills. do they teach insurance … budgets … taxes … I can go on
By WhatWillBridgetDo?
May 9, 2007 5:28 PM | Link to this
Bridget,
PLEASE consider the following: ask Cox, “on the record” to take an Algebra II test. She if she’ll do it.
I don’t think she will…because she can’t
By Janine
May 9, 2007 6:06 PM | Link to this
Well,Bridget, as long as WhatWillBridgetDo has you asking, go ahead and ask the entire state board of ed., the governor, and the entire legislature to take the End of Course Algebra II test….the one that is used nationally or the one that comes with an Algebra II text. What do you think the pass rate would be? My guess under….probably WAY-Y-Y under 50%.
By Ken Roberts
May 9, 2007 6:26 PM | Link to this
So I read all of the opinions here and decided I needed to post my two cents.
The bottom line is that kids will rise to the bar you set for them. Contrary to what many of you may think, Algebra 2 is not difficult. Calculus is not even difficult.. I could teach basic calculus to any of you in 20 minutes. The problem is that so many people have a negative attitude about mathematics from people like yourselves that they absolutely refuse to adjust themselves to learning it. It is a different way of thinking that requires you to really get absorbed in it. You can’t just do it once a week for 30 minutes, you have to do it for hours at a time until it clicks. But once you do understand it, it opens up a whole new realm of possibilities for you.
For those of you that say that the ‘majority’ of people are not fit for college, let me tell you this: Currently I am a student at Ga Tech that is cross enrolled in a Biology class at Ga State (ours was full). There’s a girl that sits next to me in that class who has a learning disability. Can you believe that? A learning disability. But despite that she still has a B in the class and will most likely graduate in a year or two with a college diploma. That has convinced me that if she can do it, anyone can do it.
I can’t help but wonder if some of the negative comments here are from people who didn’t go to college but wish they had? Let me tell you this: whether you go to college or trade school, there is nothing as enriching to life as knowledge. Do not rob future generations of that just because you wrongly assume that most kids are stupid.
On a final note, remember that we are living in a democracy. If you do not educate the masses, you end up electing a crappy government. Think about this for a second, 3 of the 10 Republicans in the last presidential debate said that they do not believe in evolution. If any of those jokers had ever taken a college biology course they would (hopefully) think otherwise.
Respectfully, Ken Roberts
By JustMe
May 10, 2007 8:16 AM | Link to this
Ken,
I agree with you 100%….. kids will rise to the bar if set high. I would also say that the opposite is true - kids will lower to the bar if set low. This is what is happenning in elementary and middle school because kids quickly find out that they are promoted even if they do not learn/pass.
By the time they get to high school it is too late. They are so far behind they cannot catch up and even if they wanted to, they never learned how to study to catch up. Those kids will likely never pass the GHSGT and then drop out.
And, if they are lucky enough to pass the GHSGT then they may get accepted to some “college” that is basically a repeat of the basic courses (they are called remedial courses in college).
By Teacher, Too
May 10, 2007 8:30 AM | Link to this
I’ve been somewhat absent from the blogs lately as I’ve been busy with end of the year activities during school and in the evenings. But, last night I read this entire thread, and I had to chime in.
Based on my observations, a couple of things are happening. First, the behavior of many, many students is just awful. They talk back, they use vulgar language, they create havoc in the classrooms, and they are dressed horribly. The girls looks like they should be walking the streets and they boys can’t walk for the waist of their britches is around their knees. I don’t really want to hear about freedom of expression and how students express their individuality by how they dress. Students need to come to school ready to learn- and a strict dress code is necessary. I guarantee you most students would not attend church, synagogue, or any other place of worship dressed the way they come to school. Look at how many private schools have a dress code or school uniform. Students can channel their creativity or need for artistic expression in other, more academic ways.
Secondly, I teach a challenging curriculum. Do you know how many complaints I get from parents because I require students to actually do something? And if their child doesn’t turn in his/her work, do you know how many notes I get with excuses, even though the due dates were clearly printed? When will students be held accountable for turning their work in on time without their parents bailing them out?
Third, teachers need to stand their ground. I have been very fortunate to have administrators back me with my curriculum because they know that my students are learning. Yes, it is difficult to do this- and it is very easy to give in and lower standards. But at what cost?
Finally, I’ve asked this question before and I’ll ask it again. How much homework, on average, do schools like Westminster or Lovett or Pace Academy give their students? Parents get upset when their kids have homework, but in middle school and high school, that should be the norm. In the elite private schools, I would think that students have homework every night or just about every night. I’d like to know an average- one hour, two hours?
Just a few honest thoughts…
By Jeff
May 10, 2007 8:38 AM | Link to this
Ken,
I was right with you until you mentioned the college Indoctrination course (aka the pseudo-science Biology. If it were a REAL science, it would not preclude any possibilities until conclusive data was gathered. See, I’m learning a MAJOR lesson right now in my work as a scientist. That lesson is simple: Oftentimes, what you THINK is the solution and what turns out to BE the solution are nowhere in the same galaxy, much less the same general place!!)
By DB
May 10, 2007 9:04 AM | Link to this
Ken: I’m one of the posters who maintain that there should be a college prep track and a general education track in high school, and, contrary to your theory, I most certainly did graduate from a top-20 college (s.c.l.), for what it’s worth.
I don’t know why you threw in the example of a learning disability as a inspiring reason why “everyone” can/should go to college. A learning disability is, in my mind, just something that usually needs to be worked around, very much like eyeglasses. Lots of students figure out how to work with a disability and go on to higher academic achievements. I’m simply saying that there ARE students out there that shouldn’t be on a college-bound track. They lack the initiative one needs in college to take responsbility for their own learning, they lack an ability to process and distill large quantitites of information — or, they simply are not interested enough to spend four more years going to school.
Teacher, Too: my children attend a well-regarded private school here in the area. I don’t know how much homework they have compared to the kids who go to the public school, but I’ve observed that it often depends on the kid and how well they use their time. I have one child for whom academics come easily, who has a tendency to finish up homework assignments during lunch, after school before sports practices, etc. That child never seems to have much homework, but gets straight A’s. The other child has about 2 hours a night most nights and works hard for high B’s. Given that, I think it would depend more on the child than it would on the school. Frankly, I never paid much attention to my children’s homework — it’s their responsibility, not mine, and it’s their grade, not mine. The one time I got a comment from a teacher that homework was being turned in late, that child found their on-line chat sessions and cell phone privileges severely curtailed until the next reporting period. Worked like magic :-)
By Teacher, Too
May 10, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this
DB- thank you for your thoughts. It’s nice to hear from a parent who allows their child to take responsibility for his/her homework. That is what is partially wrong with public education- some parents want a first class education, but it has to happen between school hours only- with little to no homework. Honestly, that’s just not possible.
I have noticed that private school parents rarely complain about homework.
By JustMe
May 10, 2007 9:52 AM | Link to this
Teacher Too
That is why some say private schools are “better” than public schools. It is not the teacher or the curriculum or the lessons. It is the parent influence over the student. This parental influence not only helps academics but also behavior.
If students in public schools had involved parents, there would be no real difference between public and private schools.
By Ernest
May 10, 2007 10:16 AM | Link to this
JustMe, you beat me to the punch. Again, parental involvement is the key. Add to that, if I’m going to pay upwards of 10-15K per year for private school, I’m going to make sure I get a good return on that investment.
Some would say the same attitude should exist for public schools since upwards of 75% of our property taxes goes to the school system.
By wwww
May 10, 2007 10:20 AM | Link to this
JustMe:
And that is the difference between private and public education, plain and simple.
Ken Roberts:
I am glad you are doing well in college, and I am glad you took the time to read through all the comments before posting. However, making the blanket statement that “Algebra II is easy” is not fair. It wasn’t easy for me because I had a terrible teacher. Now, I know that - at the time, I thought I was the problem. Luckily, I did not have a learning disability and was able to muddle through the course and barely pass.
Coincidentally, I’ve never needed to graph an ellipse or a parabola ever again, so I am at a loss as to why that mathematical material is considered the panacea for all students. The thought processes involved in math are important, not the individual standards.
By Jeff
May 10, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this
wwww:
As I posted yesterday, Conics are NOT the only topic covered in A2, and honestly roughly half of the topics ARE things that you have probably used since… you just didn’t remember them being in A2. MANY people have trouble with Conics and come to hate A2 because of that. The weird thing about the human mind though? No matter how many positive things we experience in a given situation, if we experience ONE bad thing, the bad thing is all we will remember, or if we remember the good things, the bad thing is generally blown FAR out of proportion.
(I’m battling the same phenomenon in regards to my teaching career!)
By Teacher, Too
May 10, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this
Public v. Private-parental support is why so many teachers don’t stay at title schools or in urban schools districts. My administrator gave me my year-end eval this morning. She thanked me for staying to teach next year.
All schools need excellent teachers, but until the behavior of the students change,until parents start PARENTING and get a backbone and learn to say the word “NO”, and until adminstrators and the schoolboard support the teachers who have high expectations and don’t tolerate the bad behavior, public education will continue to decline.
Okay, I’ve said my piece. I’ll step down from my soapbox now.
By JustMe
May 10, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this
So for those of you that do agree with me in the difference between private and public schools…..
You can see why any sort of voucher program that co-mingles public and private schools would simply not work! This is because the flood gates would open and the “bad” parents would simply move their kid to private schools and then there would be no difference!!!!
By V for Vendetta
May 10, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this
Careful Ken, most people on this blog have not only gone to college, but are teachers. Not a good place to be wagging a “you just wish you were as educated as me” finger.
You’re wrong about one thing. You assert that kids will rise to the challenge, that they will attain more desirable results if the bar is set higher for them. Um, in a word, NO. SOME kids will do better, SOME kids may attain higher grades, but many will not. Many will resist the idea of being held to a higher standard because they are not held to ANY standard at home.
I’m not sure where you were going with your whole disability rant, but there IS a LARGE number of kids who are just not fit for college. Some aren’t fit for ditch digging or garbage collection either. Because of this, we need MORE technical/trade programs to balance out our college prep programs.
Your democracy example is also flawed. The cream will always rise to the top. If the masses fail to be educated properly, it will not change the percentage of doctors or lawyers in society (since they usually make up a smaller percentage of the overall population). What you should be more concerned about is the possibility that years from now (hundreds, maybe thousands?), the stupid people will literally BREED the intelligent out of existence. I believe in evolution as well Ken, but when it comes to the human race, I don’t see much of it at all. I see the virus of stupid hard at work.
By catlady
May 10, 2007 11:49 AM | Link to this
Anyone else concerned that fed up subtracted 46 from 100 and got 64? :)
By Lisa B.
May 10, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this
I like the idea of “raising the bar” in education. I am sick of education being “dumbed down.” I truly hope Algebra II doesn’t wind up getting so watered down that anyone can pass. There will always be kids who can’t or won’t pass that type of class. I pray we won’t take away the challenges for those students who will work hard to meet the higher standards.
I have to support V’s comment that “stupid people will literaly BREED the intelligent out of existance.” It’s scary, but I think teachers see this happening over the years when we see the choices students make, and partners they chose. Ug!
By high school teacher
May 10, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this
I pray we won’t take away the challenges for those students who will work hard to meet the higher standards.
That’s when the state will start with vouchers for gifted kids to go to private school.
How does one afford $15K per child for private school? Right now, child care is costing us around $5 k a year for one. When we had two in day care, we almost didn’t make it. What is the average salary of private school parents?