AJC.com > Blogs > Get Schooled > Archives > 2007 > April > 27 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USGo To Jail, Get Your Degree
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Earlier this week, my colleague Bill Montgomery wrote a story about a teenager who received her high school diploma while doing time for murder — part of his popular “What ever happened to…” series.
What caught my eye was that the article was one of the most-read stories on our Web site that day. I wondered what the draw was. After all, GED programs for prisoners are nothing new.
But maybe people have a visceral reaction to seeing a cold-blooded killer — in this case, a girl who viscously stabbed an elderly couple to death — doing anything that closely resembles life on the outside.
Earlier this month, “60 Minutes” Correspondent Bob Simon reported that prisoners with violent criminal histories are earning degrees from an elite private college in New York. Some are even hoping to receive a Ph.D.
Of course, people will argue that convicts shouldn’t be allowed an education while they’re in the pen. But for those who will be paroled is there a better way to prepare them for release?
Comments
By Stacey
April 27, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this
It took me 12 years to pay off student loan debt and I had a partial scholarship. The idea of prisoners getting air conditioning, non-essential healthcare and catered food on the taxpayer’s dime burns me up. The thought that I am paying for them to get college degrees REALLY upsets me.
By KA
April 27, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this
I am a former GED examiner and tested inmates in jail and prison. A few of the inmates were serious offenders, but most were young people who had made a series of very poor choices, and were now paying for their mistakes. The great majority were in for drug possession and dealing, DUI convictions and property crimes that supported their habits. They chose the wrong friends, dropped out of HS, felt invincible with their lawbreaking, and then got caught. I believe that educating inmates and giving them the GED is absolutely necessary to prepare them for getting a job and establishing a lawful lifestyle after their release. Many told me that their families and teachers gave up on them and didn’t care if they dropped out of HS. I tried to counsel them that their education was their choice, and for their benefit, and that they had to take the responsibility for making good choices and learning. Of course some will still make poor choices and return to prison at some point. But many of the inmates I spoke with knew they had screwed up and they wanted to get their acts together. Call me Pollyanna, but I am hopeful that many of the inmates I tested are out and living a lawful life.
By Bulletproof Diva
April 27, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this
When they are finally paroled, the education would be a helpful tool for people who WANT to turn their life around. The criminal background is already going to be a hurdle. At least with the education, they may get taken more seriously by employers. I would rather they come out with a degree, then no job/trade skills at ALL, thus leading them back to a life of crime.
By tami
April 27, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this
I speak for myself but the only reason I read the article was because I had a reaction like WTF….why is AJC trying to publicize something positive on such a negative person. For the crime, she should never get released. I’d much rather read that she got her a$$ beat for what she did to those poor elderly people than to see her getting an education on my tax dollars.
By mmm
April 27, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this
Bridget—-has anyone checked recently to see if the kids that go into juvenile detention are being taught anything.
I’m hearing (admittedly through the grapevine) that Dekalb schools are seeing Juveniles that were held for some time coming back into the schools years behind in schooling. Wasn’t there an effort afoot last year to get a charter school status for something to get them some education within the prison system. Adults getting ph D’s on the taxpayer’s tab is one thing, but if fully intend to release juveniles at 18—-don’t we have a responsibility to at least get that GED and/or job training so that they have some hope?
By high school teacher
April 27, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this
Where do you draw the line? I don’t mind allowing prisoners getting their GED; in fact, it’s the first step on the road to a better life. However, like Stacey, I scream “not fair” about getting a free college education. We are still paying off my husband’s student loans. It is a bit disconcerting to read that a murderer is getting post-secondary education for free.
By JustMe
April 27, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this
Sorry, but I don’t think that my tax dollars should be spent this way when law-abiding citizens may be going hungry or otherwise in dire need of government assistance.
I am sort of okay with them getting their GED. After all, my tax dollars are already used to pay for public education for a high school degree.
But it is really not right for them to get a college degree on my dime. Law-abiding citizens may go into huge debt (student loans) to get their degree, but the criminals get it for free?
I just doesn’t make sense to me.
By EW
April 27, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this
Maybe Mike Vick will finally get the degree in prison he couldn’t get in college.
By Lee
April 27, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this
I guess this debate depends on whether you think the purpose of prison is to punish or to rehabilitate. It said in the article that the program was being conducted at no cost to the taxpayers, so what’s the harm?
Speaking of violent people, it seems that Nikki Giovanni, the Va Tech professor who got the gunman kicked out of her class knows a little something about violent writings. Google “The True Import of Present Dialog, Black vs. Negro” and read her “poem”. Not much difference between her writings and Cho’s, IMHO.
By jim d
April 27, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this
Well we can educate them and hope they turn their @sses around or we can pay when they end up back in prison. Sounds like a pretty simple choice to me. I’d say educate if there’s even the most remote chance they will ever be released. For those with life/no parol? Just put them on a chain gang or a prison farm. Shoot I forgot, can’t do that in most states anymore.
By catlady
April 27, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this
Yes to GED and limited technical-type education. Students should work off the cost of the program during their stay in the jail. If they are unable to do some kind of work, they don’t really need that GED. They should also work off their medical care, if at all possible.
NO to college-level work. They can go to college after they get out, like the rest of us, while worrying about paying their bills, etc. There is always somewhere that will admit felons.
By Lee
April 27, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this
Frankly, I think Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio does it right. He removed TV, weightlifting, coffee and other creature comforts. Housed inmates in tents and fed them bologna sandwiches twice per day. Also instituted a study program so that inmates could get their GED’s and degrees.
Jim D, I remember seeing those chain gangs on the side of the road while growing in up the 60’s. Knew as a young child that I never wanted to do anything to wind up there. Too bad some panty-waist judge ruled it “inhumane.”
By des
April 27, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this
Like the person above said, not everyone in prison is a hardened criminal. Enough crap happens to them in jail. If they are’nt a serious criminal and do their time, we should make attempts at rehab for them. All of us are just a blink from being in there, i.e. vehicular homicide.
By des
April 27, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this
I forgot who I was dealing with here. Most of you don’t care about anybody or anything but yourself and are self centered and self serving. Thank God everyone is not like some of you or else this world would end a lot sooner.
By nel
April 27, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this
Well, we all complain here about the lack of discipline in many of these young people. I’m all for getting them some structure while they are in juvy particularly. They don’t study in school because most of them have adults around them who don’t care. Use that time to good use rather then watching tv and working out, all of which encourages lazyness while you wait for your meals to be provided for you and your clothing to be laundered by others. You have to try something becuase the majority of them will be coming back into society, and if you think you live in a safe haven, where do you think are are coming when they’ve exhausted themselves on us regular folks?
By des
April 27, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this
Dearest Nel: They spend most of their time avoiding getting the crap beat out of them and worse. Jailers seem to think it is funny to withhold meds (yes mentally ill people end up here that is a whole other story) and let this come to a brawl. I know a lot of “regular folks” who probably would be behind bars but they haven’t been caught.
By Lisa B.
April 27, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this
I paid out of pocket for all my education and still pay on students loans. That said, I truly believe that education is the key to rehabilitation. If the jailed person had been able to work and put him or herself through college in the first place, he or she may have done so. If people get out of jail, and cannot find decent employment, it is very hard to avoid going back to the lifestyle that caused them to wind up in jail in the first place. I know, I hate for inmates to have more privileges than folks on the outside, but do we really want people to stay out of jail, and leave lives of crime once their sentences have been completed?
As far as murderers serving life sentences with no possibility of parole, college degrees seem to be a waste of time and money.
By JustMe
April 27, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this
If the prisoner’s education is not costing taxpayers or the general public anything, then fine.
But, I would bet that these colleges doing this for “free” simply pass the cost along as a tuition increase for the law-abiding students. Nothing is really for “free.”
By SET
April 27, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this
Here’s my 10 cents. This country need to be doing a lot more executions. Additionally, the prisons should be run as working plantations with corporal punishment used to keep the inmates polite and well mannered.
The alternative is what we do in CA - we run our prisons as gladiator schools that make all of the inmates more unstable and more feral and less attached to society when they all (eventually) get out.
Whatever happened to “..except for penal servitude?”
Having said that, as long as people are in institutions - and prisons are just another name for mental institution - there should be an educational component. as I’ve said above it is part of being institutionalized that the inmates learn how to behave. Basic education is as much a part of that as corporal punishment, or blender food, or “the hole”.
All in the correct measure. That doesn’t mean we should be giving advanced education as punishment for crime. By statute the purpose of confinement for crimes in CA is Punishment nor rehabilitation. So I think college credits should be out.
Nevertheless, basic education and vocational training are essential to running an orderly prison, and they are essential (along with discipline and manners) to having the inmates function better when released than when first sent in.
By des
April 27, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this
law abiding student is for the most part any oxy moron. If you have student loans, then you are on my dollar. I figure those in jail might study more. CAn’t party.
By SAR
April 27, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this
Prison is prison , its not intended to be a cake walk, it is prison for Gods sake. Why do liberals always have so much sympathy for the criminal and none for the victims? I want a person who murders someone to be miserable, very, very miserable and afraid fro their life in prison. How do you think the victims were feeling just before they died and they realized never again would see their loved ones, how about the pain and suffering they felt? And oh poo poo about the plight of the poor minority in prison; I don’t care what color the skin on your rear end is, deal with your punishment, stop blaming society because you are a mean murdering sociopath. All premeditated murderers should get the death penalty, the same goes with anyone who kills a child or a police officer. Only if the murderers are able to bring the victims back to life, then reconsider the punishment. Also, DNA has never, not one single time, has DNA ever been able to prove we executed an innocent person. When I read about a murderer in prison getting whats due to them by another person in prison, I smile and think justice has been served right this time. Stop feeling sorry for repeat offenders and killers. If you rerally want to save something worth saving, go to the local animal shelter and save a cat or a dog, something worth saving, not some scumbag killer.
By jim d
April 27, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this
Just me,
To me it’s not a question of free or not. It is one of which is less expensive. providing an education or releasing them to a life of crime? I do believe educating them might be a bit less expensive, although I will admit I’ve not researched the issue.
By des
April 27, 2007 12:41 PM | Link to this
SAR, I’m not a liberal, and I am certainly not talking about murderers and rapists. But regular people who in desperation made bad decisions. I don’t want them to be career criminals because no one cares. And like I said, it could happen to you - talking on the cell phone could cause a wreck that kills someone, you could be in there and we could say you weren’t worth it.
By Stacey
April 27, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this
I agree with Justme that it isn’t “free” but rather passed along to others. I don’t have a problem with them getting their GED’s and job training, but I do draw the line at college.
I’ve heard that in some states, prisoners work doing anything from manufacturing to call center work while they are in prison and are assisted with job placement once they are released. Most of the inmate’s salary goes to pay for room & board and the inmate keeps a small portion to do with as they please. Depending on what they are in for, I don’t have a problem with this type of program.
By JustMe
April 27, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this
jim d-
My, my! If I didn’t know any better, I would think that you are a liberal by your last post!!!
By des
April 27, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this
What really irks me is people like some of you here who are such snobs. You are the ones who refer to people who are different from you as “those people”. I thank my parents for the good dose of compassion I have or you would be in trouble
By JustMe
April 27, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this
So, if I didn’t or couldn’t pay for a college education, I could just commit a crime? Wow. Sounds like sort of a good deal in a way…. I would get out of prison with a higher degree and immediately start a job making 6 figures (if I get a law degree, for example).
Hmmmm. Now all that is left is for me to decide which crime to commit.
By SAR
April 27, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this
The story is predicated on a teen-ager in prison for murder who received a GED after murdering an elderly couple. This girl, and yes I know she was a teen, should be facing the death penalty. Did the stabs hurt the couple any less because the knife was held by the hand of a teen? Was the pain any less? Stop pandering to the kids who kill, a bullet from a gun held by a teen kills as fast and deadly as a bullet coming from the hands of a middle age person. This particular teen should be on death row and not being protected by some 300 pound bull d** in prison. My sister was killed by two teens, one served four years and was released. Thankfully later to be shot dead and killed in an attempted arm robbery. Thank God the store owner had a gun and used it to blow the then twenty-five years old head right off his shoulders. Oh how I loved seeing the pictures of him headless, what a rush I got! The other scumbag, sent back to prison after being released and is still there, hopefully rotting a little each day, hopefully suffering a lot each day.
By des
April 27, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this
I had a relative that was shot and killed and then burned. A month went by before she was found. The death of the man who killed her did not take away the pain. Life goes on. Everyone is not a killer. I agree some should get nothing if their crime is one like that. But there are so many in jail for simple things, a crime albeit, but I think they deserve a chance. I am sorry for your loss of your loved one and for the loss of a caring heart. Peace.
By scott
April 27, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this
If the penal system was changed and did not place drug users in prison but rehab programs we could actually make change in society. If the true criminals are seperated from someone who has a physical addiction (unless they have committed another crime such as robbery to finance their committment)then the true “drug addicts” can get some help. As more and more suburban kids start facing mandated sentences for METH use instead of the “crack addicted inner-city kid”, we will begin seeing the conversation change.
Do not get me started on the weed smokers; I can honestly say I have never touched, inhaled, smoked, any form of marijuana. I wonder how many of all these righteous never done anything wrong in their life bloggers can say the same.
By sharon
April 27, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this
I wonder why our tax money is being used for something so foolish? I can’t believe the way some people think. Do your parents and teachers give up on you or is it a poor, poor me complex? Why is it some kids can pick themselves up and make something good with their lives and then you have the ones who ‘get in with the wrong crowd’. If we quit making excuses for everybody then maybe everybody will get their act together and quit living off the people who did. No, they should not have the opportunity to get a higher education that the kids who stay in school and work at making decent grades and still can’t afford to go to school. God this society sucks. We reward the people who screw up their own lives and the lives of other people but ignore the ones who will go out and make this a better society. Damn the bleeding heart liberals! I don’t feel any recovering drug addict should be concidered a hero, and just because you have had a pitiful life you should be rewarded for making the wrong decisions!
By des
April 27, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this
Sharon - your an idot
By Cletus Snow
April 27, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this
There are many opinions on this subject,I don’t have a problem with getting them a H/S diploma.I’ll tell you that it bothers me thinking about advanced degrees,I remember how difficult it was for my 3 kids every one of them started life with a huge student loan hanging over thier heads not to mention that I had to get a loan on our home,It was tough, but if you kill someone you’ll be rewarded with a free degree. No I do not wish to pay for it let them do some kind of work to pay for it themselves.
By scott
April 27, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this
No, Sharon is one of the few person who has NO ONE in her family or life that has ever used drugs. Pure drug addiction and criminal behavior are two different things. Is not this what the HARD RIGHT CONSERVITIVE Rush Limbaugh lives by.
By V for Vendetta
April 27, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this
To reiterate what others have said …
I have no problem with someone on the “inside” earning a GED. I’ll chalk that one up to taxes for public school and be fine with it. The college thing is a no-brainer … NO FREAKING WAY! I thank my lucky stars that I made it through college with no debts. I owe my parents a lot for that as I am now pursuing a Masters degree and have the ability to pay for it outright. That having been said, it is entirely unfair for Tyrone (or Bob, is that better all you PC whiners?) to get a higher education at the expense of taxpayers who are probably still paying for their own higher education. I cry foul and BS on that one.
And SET you are exactly right. We DO need more executions in this country. Des, I am sorry to hear about your relative, I really am, but I don’t expect an execution to take away anyone’s pain. I expect it to remove some unfavorable genetics from the face of the planet. Humans have stagnated, we have ceased to evolve. It’s time we realize that. The virus of stupid is hard at work.
And it’s always spreading.
By jim d
April 27, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this
V,
Interestingly If education, as many believe, is the primary path for the disenfranchised to civic participation and economic equality in America, does it make sense to disallow those who’ve made past mistakes from pursuing a college degree?
Higher education is highly correlated with reduced recidivism—even when the college degree is earned in prison. The Taxas department of criminal justice studied the effect of higher education using eight years of post-release data for 883 offenders who received college degrees while incarcerated between 1986 and 1992. Compared to a system-wide recidivism rate of 43%, prisoners who completed an Associate’s Degree recidivated at the rate of 27.2% and those who completed a Baccalaureate Degree recidivated at the rate of only 7.8% (which means virtually none of them commit new crimes). Other studies find recidivism to be even lower.
Appears to me to be a pretty good return on the investment.
By SET
April 27, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this
One more thing, one of the most important things prison does for all of us it to block procreation of the psychopaths and disfunctional losers who allow themselves to wind up in prison.
It’s one of the nice things about the CA 3 strike scheme. The most violent and plea bargain impaired people get 25 to life at 85% minimum by the time they are 21 - the prime breeding years.
Too bad these prisons are bankrupting the state… We need to pursuade the Sheriff from Phoenix to operate our penal colonies on a budget. But that’s kind of hard to do when the prison guards are making more than the Nurses.
The answer is to oursource the prisoners to Mississipi and Alabama.
I still think the inmates should be forced/encouraged to learn to read and write. Then have them read history rather than current events.
Brave New World.
By Gandolf the Grey
April 27, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this
Des, If they would have let you kill the murderer would that have helped?
By SET
April 27, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this
Jim D: I hear your argument about college classes. And I do believe in flexibility. If a Warden wants a particular slave/inmate/worker to take advanced classes I’d leave that up to the Warden. Maybe that is needed for tax preparation.
But it is generally bad policy to put people in prison for violent crimes against innocent women and children (if applicable) and then give them free college education that honest people can’t get.
Our state college system used to be nearly free and now it’s nearly prohibitive.
I agree you do have a point here. I’d like to have some wiggle room. But generally, no.
By Blind Homer
April 27, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this
I don’t have a problem with the no death penalty for children under 18 law, but Holley and Sandra should be serving life without possibility of parole, making education pointless. For less serious offenders why not try to rehab them while they’re being punished?
By des
April 27, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this
FYI, I knew him, he killed himself, no I could not kill anyone. PS You are an idiot also
By high school teacher
April 27, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this
des, in my experience, most people with hearts of compassion refrain from calling others idiots.
By des
April 27, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this
I usually refrain, but people with hard hearts and closed minds made me do it. By the way, in my experience, most high school teachers are idiots.
By jim d
April 27, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this
SET,
Why not ofer these college level courses then only to prisoners that are scheduled to be released in the amount of time it would take them to earn the degree? Not wasting tax dollars on the worthless scumbucket, bottom feeders that will never get out—yet reducing recidivism. The savings in lives and tax dollars might make it a good gamble.
By high school teacher
April 27, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this
Obviously you don’t know me! :)
By jim d
April 27, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this
Set,
here’s interesting fact.
cost per inamte per year in a federal prison = $25,000
But did you know that;
About 65 percent of students enrolled at four-year colleges or universities attend institutions that charge tuition and fees of less than $9,000 per year.
Fifty-six percent of full-time students enrolled in public four-year colleges and universities attend institutions that charge published in-state tuition and fees between $3,000 and $6,000.
While private four-year institutions have a much wider range of tuition and fee charges, only about 5 percent of all students attend colleges with tuition and fees totaling $33,000 or higher per year.
http://www.collegeboard.com/student/pay/add-it-up/4494.html
It is abundantly clear to me which is cheaper. A 4 year degree may be cheaper than inprisonment for just one year, making education of inmates a real bargin and reduces the odds they return once released.
By Strider
April 27, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this
I think we should hang and fry more of ‘em, not educate the dregs of society. Bring back road gangs!
By Lee
April 27, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this
Good grief, y’all read the story…
The story was about the teenaged convict earning her GED. There was a link to another story about a college in New York teaching local prisoners at “no cost to taxpayers.” Fine. Go for it.
As for me, I’d much rather a violent felon to be in a classroom studying than lifting weights four hours per day - getting stronger and stronger for the day he gets out to prey once again on the weaker general population.
By catlady
April 27, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this
jim d, the problems with the research study you cited are first, no control group matched by selected attributes, and second, the self-selection process inherent in the described prisoner population.
By km
April 27, 2007 3:31 PM | Link to this
Oh my goodness. Does anyone posting actually know someone in prison? Ever been personally close to an individual that has done real prison time for whatever the reason? If you have, you wouldn’t be so quick to jump on the “let em all rot in hell” bandwagon. Most enventually do get out of prison, we see it everyday. Would you rather them get out and have a trade or skill and some help with job placement? Or, would you rather them have NOTHING and get so frustrated about having no way to feed him/herself, they run up in your home or your mother’s home to rob them? I chose the second.
And yes, I do personally know someone who has been incarcerated. I’ve heard some of the stories of what the guys, who have no skills or education, will return to once released…it ain’t pretty people. I’ve even heard stories of guys saying they will avoid certain areas, so they will not possibly encounter a ex-cellmates’ “family”.
Those that have no family, skills, guidance are the most dangerous people you will ever not want to meet. Not, those that have “something” useful to survive. I know some of you will never understand or care what that feels like. But everyone isn’t so lucky.
By JustMe
April 27, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this
Lordly, Lee. Haven’t you been reading these post? We have already discussed and explained why your position is stupid.
Even if the college provides the courses “free” to taxpayers, it isn’t really “free.” The college simply passes the cost on to it’s law abiding students by upping the tuition.
Do you really think that the professors are taking their time teaching, grading, etc. out of the goodness of their heart? Get real.
By roadkill
April 27, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this
My son got his GED in the Dekalb County jail at age 17. First offender status kept him from having a felony conviction. He is now putting himself through college, earning honors as a computer engineering student at Georgia Tech after earning very high grades in junior college. And he did it all without any financial help from his family and while supporting and nurturing a son. Society will get a hefty return on the cost of that GED. Many of those kids sitting in jail are bright and motivated; they just need a break.
By jim d
April 27, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this
Cat,
I’ll accept that if you will take time to read the linked study that was conducted in 3 states, Maryland, Minnesota, and Ohio.
http://www.ceanational.org/documents/EdReducesCrime.pdf
KM, not only have I known a few—I’ve employed a few as well.
By Matt
April 27, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this
Personally, I’m ashamed to count myself as a member of the same species as some of you bloggers. I’ve met hardened criminals with more compassion for their fellow man than some of you.
One of my now closest friends spent ten years in jail, and would have gone back to the same life of crime he left had it not been for programs like this that allowed him to get his Associate’s Degree in Religious Studies, and become ordained as an evangelist.
Even if the higher education doesn’t stop them from returning to a life of crime when they are released, I would rather an attempt be made to make them a part of the society they will be rejoining, instead of releasing them with no job skills other than what got them into prison in the first place.
Oh, and I forgot to mention. I’m a current student, paying my way out of pocket every semester. And my tuition may be higher because of this program, but it’s well worth it.
By jim d
April 27, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this
Just me,
Not only is it free, but there appears to be a substaintal payback to taxpayers in seeing these inmates get an education. Read the 3 state study at the link I provided above.
By Lee
April 27, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this
Justme, direct from the article…. “The Bard College program, which is privately funded, has been in this prison for six years…
Key words privately funded.
You sure are quick to start calling people names who don’t agree with you. Playground behavior, perhaps?
Maybe what is “stupid” is a teacher who jumps to conclusions without reading the article.
By jim d
April 27, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this
Matt,
It is not a lack of compassion but more a lack of true understanding about how much these programs help the inmates and society in general.
Your friend is a great example of how they can help. He is now a contributing member of society and is paying taxes to support the programs himself.
By KA
April 27, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this
Most inmates serve their sentences and are released. The purpose of incarceration is to punish and that is accomplished through depriving inmates of their liberties. IMO the purpose of the law is NOT to permanently brand these people as worthless, and deprive them of a chance at a lawful and productive life. A poor education is the number one common factor among most young inmates, and if nothing changes then they will probably return to prison again and again. Isn’t it better to encourage them to get their GED, AND college classes, and keep busy in prison focusing on their lawful and productive future, not forming illegal schemes with hardened criminals? Do you people know that released inmates have mandatory repayment plans for their incarceration, and that many work in prison to help retire that debt? Most inmates get two meals a day only, and are not living the high life. FYI I’m not a bleeding heart liberal, just someone with common sense.
By Sarah
April 27, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this
Notice how many people find God in prison? Not hard to do when all you have is a free Bible and your guilt. Where was that need to find God as they pumped bullets into someone, or held a gun to a store clerks head…demanding money? God was there then, but I suppose they were too busy being criminals to notice God. It’s not hard to find God when you’re in a cell with little else. Sure, we have some cases where a person leaves behind a life of crime. We have far, far more that go right back in and blame this or that for their evil ways. They should all be working on the side of the roads in chains picking up garbage, not sitting on their worthless rear ends on my tax dollars reading and relaxing. Compassion you say? You actually think they deserve compassion, the real hardened crimminals like this monster of a girl that killed the two elderly people. Where was HER compassion as she repeatedly stabbed the elderly woman and then her husband? Where was the comapssion. I can only hope the EXACT SAME FATE AWAITS HERE…now that is justice. Some of you just make me sick.
By SAR
April 27, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this
I refuse to ad links to a post, I will spare you. I just read story about a woman that felt compassion towards a convicted killer in SD, he was serving four life terms. She helped him escape. She beleived in him, well…that was what she wrote in an email to a friend before she used her life savings to help him escape. The SD police found her body, but they have yet to find her severed head. She got what she deserved. Compassion….ha ha ha.
By Matt
April 27, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this
Sarah, May you find the justice you wish upon others. I’ll strive for grace and forgiveness, myself.
By Cosmo
April 27, 2007 4:29 PM | Link to this
Matt, I wonder how far your forgiveness and grace will go when someone rapes your wife or molests your child. But you will probably have more sympathy for the criminal than the victims….like most bleeding heart liberals.
By Matt
April 27, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this
Cosmo, If that happens, you’re probably right. I’ll wish as much pain and horror upon them as they’ve visited on me. But if an education will help them turn from their life of crime, I’ll still gladly pay for it.
By Matt
April 27, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this
And I would rather have a bleeding heart than none at all.
By catlady
April 27, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this
jim d, thanks for the link. I will read it entirely this eve and respond back Monday. I am, however, a little concerned about seeing that the study was sponsored by a group that profits by providing instruction to inmates. Sorta like the GOP sponsoring a study that says that GWB’s programs have led to brighter futures for everyone. Or any other study that might be sponsored by a group that is not remotely free of bias and is not published in a peer-reviewed journal. Of course, it could be very well-done. Thanks for the intellectual fodder. (Moo!)
By KA
April 27, 2007 4:44 PM | Link to this
Sarah, Ever been in a prison, or known anyone in prison? Your attitude of disgust and disdain is shocking. Yes, some people are weak, they make mistakes, and they must pay by serving their sentences. But would you condemn them to a life of no achievement, no hope, no joy? Some people just need a second chance, a helping hand, some education, in short, a break. You have made it clear that you would never offer a helping hand for a second chance. I am sorry for you.
By catlady
April 27, 2007 5:07 PM | Link to this
IMHO, inmates do need a chance to further their education. The question is: how far? Like an earlier poster said, if it does not cost the state something, SOMEONE pays, such as the others attending the sponsoring college.
While I am all for inmates having opportunities to study for GEDs or technical work training (those female inmates who help socialize guide dogs, for example), college degrees seem a stretch. Studying for entrance or studying for classes with no degree attached seems feasible to me. And, yeah, I have known folks in trouble with the law. I don’t think what I am saying is hard-hearted.
In addition, inmates with hope of release should be given instruction in money management, anger management, how to search effectively for a job, time management skills, relationship skills, drug and alcohol treatment, and other things that will aid their transition to responsible living.
But, they should also do some sort of gainful activity to pay for these classes, as well as provide more real-world experience in life skills. All these things would help prepare a person for life on the outside (in the real world). Many folks get into trouble because of a “get something for nothing” or a “I deserve what the Jones’ have” mentality. It is important that they come out of incarceration with a change in this attitude, IMHO
By linda
April 27, 2007 5:36 PM | Link to this
If law-abiding citizens had the same access to these educational opportunities (including not having to worry about paying for a place to live or basic food) as inmates I could more easily support the idea of offering them in prisons. I’m afraid if we continue our habit of ignoring people who do the right things then we’ll have a minority of people who are so motivated. Note the recent news stories of the woman who could have been paroled who opted to stay in prison for the free health care (she had cancer) and the old man who robbed a bank because he could no longer make ends meet specifically to get sent to prison. I’m afraid we are only going to see more of this as the middle class disappears. Look at the big picture folks - we reward losers in school by pouring taxpayer $ into “helping them succeed” and demand that our good citizens reward criminals with free health care and college degrees. Where is the justice? This kind of system just doesn’t make sense. Reward the good guys first, then share what is left over with criminals!
By Thumper
April 27, 2007 5:51 PM | Link to this
Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.
By Thumper
April 27, 2007 5:54 PM | Link to this
Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account
By linda
April 27, 2007 6:08 PM | Link to this
Give generously to whom, Thumper? I hope that you mean give generously to EVERYONE.
By KA
April 27, 2007 6:27 PM | Link to this
linda, first, nobody is ignoring people who do the right things, because they are earning their way and living their lives. What do you want, an award certificate thanking you for doing the right thing and not committing a crime? You make it sound like prison is a comfortable camp, and believe me it is not! Take a tour at your local jail or prison, and see how great you think it is afterwards. And although inmates don’t pay for their housing and medical care directly, many are employed in prison and inmates must pay restitution upon release. If they lack education, then they will likely go back to their illegal ways. It’s much better to have a positive, goal oriented and educated inmate upon release, than one lacking in education, skills and with a bitter attitude to boot.
By JustMe
April 30, 2007 8:05 AM | Link to this
It seems that most here agree that for people in jail, the most “education” that we should provide is high school level.
Beyond that, if individual people want to donate their money to pay for criminals to get a college degree, so be it. However, the college should not provide this for “free” because it really is not “free”, the cost is simply passed to the law abiding students paying tuition.
I wonder why this “private” money that individual people donate is even there? Won’t an individual wanting to ‘go good’ prefer to donate to cancer research, feed homeless children, or something else seemingly more worthy?
That is why I question if this is really “private” money.
By JustMe
April 30, 2007 8:11 AM | Link to this
Lee, I never called you stupid, but the idea that you suggested in this blog was stupid.
You became overly sensitive. Me thinks you doth protest too much!
By jim d
April 30, 2007 8:26 AM | Link to this
Good morning Just me, Hope you had a wonderful weekend.
I understand what you are saying and under most circumstances would agree. However, the point I’ve been striving to make is that providing inmates with a higher education reduces the odds to almost nil that they’ll end up being incarcerated at a later date, and the costs associated with incarceration are 3-4 times greater than providing an education. In the long run, we lessen our costs, increase their earning power, making them productive tax paying citizens which actually benefits us all.
I realize some people may feel this is rewarding bad behavior, but personally I prefer to view it as altering bad behavior.
By KA
April 30, 2007 8:54 AM | Link to this
I feel I must stand up for offering college educations to inmates. Strange but true, there are people who will contribute to a college fund to educate prisoners. Look at any college or university and you will discover many designated scholarships for those from a particular ethnic, religious, geographic area, family name, company employees, etc. So, if any college wants to designate monies to educate prisoners, then who are we to arrogantly say no? Education is not a perk, it’s a necessity for rehabilitation.
Convicted inmates already have two strikes against them, they did something stupid, and society has identified them as stupid and made them pay for it with their liberty. WHEN most of these people complete their sentences, they must rejoin society. Hopelessness and bitterness do not bode well for success beyond prison. However, education is the best hope for a future, and college education for those who completed HS and who are intelligent should be encouraged. Do we want the smartest inmates to be focusing on academic studies, or focusing on criminal plans when they are released? Do we want them learning something productive or tutoring others in their criminal ways?
Think smart and have a heart.
By fd
April 30, 2007 9:00 AM | Link to this
we are talking about somebody that kill 2 people here,yes i think she shoud get locked up feed her bread and water ant trow away the key
By KA
April 30, 2007 9:12 AM | Link to this
fd, we are talking about a lot more than one killer’s education here. Bridget posed this question, “But for those who will be paroled is there a better way to prepare them for release?” That is the main issue here.
By fd
April 30, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this
so what we are ssaying here is that, since i don’t have enough resources to afford college.i shoud go and rob a bank………that should give me 5 to 10 years in prison enough to finish a lawyer degree..right????
By jim d
April 30, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this
FD,
GO FOR IT if you hold your freedom in such low contempt.
I’d suggest starting with an infraction of the law though that carries a much lesser sentence. You may find you don’t much care for prison.
By jim d
April 30, 2007 9:32 AM | Link to this
BTW FD,
There are better ways. Try the military route if you really want an education and can’t afford it and it generally only requires about a five year commitment once you finish school.
By fd
April 30, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this
that’s my point jim, jail should be a place remember by ” i’ll never want to be there again than at least i’ll get my free 3 meals and education”
By KA
April 30, 2007 9:55 AM | Link to this
fd, your desire to go college determines your financial ability. You must want it bad enough to figure out how to fund it. There are so many scholarships, grants, low cost loans, school co-op programs on-campus jobs, and internships to fund college. You can start out at a community college and pay a fraction of the tuition charged at the top universities. You can major in teaching and then teach in a poor inner city or rural school district that will repay your loans. If you are intelligent, you can apply to any of the top private universities who,if they accept you, will work with you to help you afford the education. You can attend school part time while you work full time. If you want a college education, you can WORK for it! However, if you think that prison is your ticket, and that inmates are privileged to get an education, then college would probably be wasted on you anyway.
By jim d
April 30, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this
But here’s the problem.
EX cons generally end up back in jail. Educating them keeps them out and saves US money
By SET
April 30, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this
Another reason not to spend excessive monies on prison inmates is that they are highly psychopathic (compared to the non-prison population) and drug addicted as hell. Plus they have real problems with IQ levels. We are already wasting $$ by trying to cram academic programs down the throats of the bottom half of the high school population.
Vocational training is adequate for these people but many of them are unfit for anything kind of “outpatient” treatment. A significant percentage need to be killed or confined inpatient until they are too debilitated to reproduce or commit more crimes.
To the point - a considerable portion of prison inmates are defective people who have no place in free society.
Singapore and Malayasia and such nations are able to rehabilitate criminals with severe corporal punishment. I would like to start such a program here beginning with juvenile court. Our current central government won’t allow that - preferring long terms in the prison-industrial complex.
By KA
April 30, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this
SET, yes there are drug addicted psychopathic career criminals in heavy lock up. Then there is an ocean of young n’er do wells who are not drug addicted psychopaths, and who will respond to a positive program of rehabilitation and education. If we can redirect these people into positive paths, and they can have lawful and productive lives, then isn’t it worth the effort?
By JustMe
April 30, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this
IF private people want to donate their money in this way, fine. Individuals can chose to do whatever they want with their money.
I stand firmly in my belief that public money (taxes, public instituion money, etc.) should not be used in this way.
After all, do we really need psycopathic people (people that don’t know the difference between right and wrong) to become doctors or lawyers? I know that this is an extreme example, but it could happen.
And, KA, to respond to your question…. IMHO we can redirect troubled people into better paths in other ways than a college education. For example, I have no problem with teaching a trade such as carpentry, etc. I do feel it unjust to give them a higher level education for free when there are other deserving and law abiding people that cannot afford it. There is no justice in that!
By high school teacher
April 30, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this
I guess I’m still the kid saying, “That’s not fair.” Prisoners should not be afforded rights that law-abiding citizens do not have. Receiving a free college education is not a right provided to a law-abiding citizen; therefore, prisoners should not receive a free college education. GED? Absolutely. Learning a trade? You bet. Getting a BA in pre-law? NO.
I’m all for rehabilitation of the inmates (at least those who will be elligible for parole). U have no problem with inamtes learning a trade or getting their GED. But when that inmate leaves prison with a business degree, yet Dudley Do-right, who has never even gotten a speeding ticket, is working three jobs to put himself through school and won’t have a degree for three more years, that’s wrong.
By scott
April 30, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this
There are some truly disturbing people on this blog.
By V for Vendetta
April 30, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this
I think JustMe and HST are right on the money. The bottom line here (getting back to the original question) is that it is fine for someone who is incarcerated to receive a high school education or learn a technical skill. Both of those educational aspirations are afforded to every student through taxpayer money. What is NOT ok, is allowing them to receive a post-secondary education at the cost of those same taxpayers.
If I could not attend college for free, funded by the other men and women of this state, then why should someone who has been convicted of a crime get that luxury at MY expense. Heck, I’m trying to pay for my Masters degree right now, I don’t need my money wasted in that way!
You can drudge up all the statistics you want pointing to the rehab of prisoners and what not, but the fact remains there are far MORE statistics to the contrary. Most criminals or ex-cons relapse and are sent back. Even more due something terrible to be thrown back in.
No, high school educations are A-OK. Prisoners getting college degrees can go hug a rabid badger.
By V for Vendetta
April 30, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this
Like who Scott?
By V for Vendetta
April 30, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this
Did I seriously say “due” something terrible earlier today? What the hell was wrong with me?
By OldSchool
April 30, 2007 5:41 PM | Link to this
My dear V, please remember that statistics mean never having to say you’re certain. Numbers can be skewed to suit anyone’s particular pet project.
Now, about “You can drudge up all the statistics…” I think you meant “dredge.”
As for me, I’m heading due East to the fridge for some nice blackberry merlot before I take myself to my favorite chair and mull over my day. Slainte’!
By Paul D
May 7, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this
Solution: quit putting so many people in prison. It’s absurd. How?
First, let’s educate ourselves on what conviction rates really mean in terms of real dollars. Not just the cost of incarceration and lost productivity (yes, some people in prison were productive before their convictions), but also the costs of the judicial process.
Next, solve two problems at once: mandate that public defenders offices be allowed if not equal budgets to the government’s district attorneys’ offices, then at least 75%. And allow public defenders comparable compensation to the state’s prosecutors. WHY do we as citizens allow the state unlimited resources to hunt us down and punish us, but not equal resources to protect us from its power?
Very few individuals can fight the state in court. When we all wake up to overzealous DAs spending our money to prosecute and incarcerate citizens at ridiculous cost to the taxpayer, then we may be able to worry less about educating prisoners.
By JustMe
May 7, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this
Paul D.
You are confusing two separate issues here.
The first issue is wrongful accusation and prosecution. No one wants an innocent person in jail or punished for a crime they did not commit.
The second is number of people in prison. This one assumes that those in prison did commit a crime and should be “punished.” You cannot simply say that we should stop punishing criminals, can you? I hope that this is not what you are saying….