Get Schooled

By JustMe

April 23, 2007 8:03 AM | Link to this

I like the change regarding the inclusion of all grades in core classes. A student should not be “forgiven” if they fail a class.

When did foreign language become a “core” class? I have always thought those to be math, English, science, and social studies.

By jim d

April 23, 2007 8:15 AM | Link to this

Just me,

I agree.

Unless I’m mistaken The foriegn language thing is a college requirement in Ga.

By Bridget Gutierrez

April 23, 2007 8:23 AM | Link to this

JustMe: Foreign language is considered a core subject for students earning a college preparatory diploma. For more information about the changes, check out this Fact Sheet from the Georgia Student Finance Commission.

By TheOne

April 23, 2007 8:29 AM | Link to this

I agree, students should have to work harder to get Hope, and foreign language is not a “core” class.

Now my question is, “Why are we cutting the benefits for our children while politicians are lining their pockets with “kickbacks” and “under the table” funds and tax breaks that benefit only them and the wealthy?!!”

By TheOne

April 23, 2007 8:29 AM | Link to this

Bridget is right, I stand corrected!! Thanks, Bridget.

By local student

April 23, 2007 8:34 AM | Link to this

Oh, look out now. Taking the HOPE scholarship away from these people will be like taking pork away from the general assembly.

My cynical view: It may get a few students to work harder for a short while. In the long run, it won’t work. If a grade is no more than a letter stamped on a transcript, it will always follow that grades will adjust to needed standards, not the other way around.

It’ll also cause a stampede to lower-end classes. Students will take the most basic class available to fulfill the core requirements.

They were smart to keep this pretty quiet until now. My psychic prediction: the changes won’t last for two main reasons.

First, once you institute an entitlement program (like free college for their mediocre student) people feel—entitled. Taking it away makes them scream bloody murder.

Second, many people feel like lottery revenue is special magic leprechaun money that is created from nowhere. For whatever reason, being wasteful is fine.

Personally, I think it’s a brave, but ultimately vain/suicidal move by HOPE officials.

Add minimum SAT scores. They should have been included in the first place.

By Hmmm

April 23, 2007 8:36 AM | Link to this

So even if a student goes to summer school, or takes an online course to make up the grade, the student has failed eligibility for hope?

I totally agree that H.O.P.E. standards should be of the highest degree, but then it could be argued that high school teachers should be of the highest degree. One without the other places many of the minority students at risk of losing the H.O.P.E. Scholarship.

I see how this might end up in court somewhere if schools are unable to staff low income – minority schools with the same caliber of teachers that teach in the suburbs.

All things being equal, I’d say this is a fair plan. However, all things may not be equal.

By Jeff

April 23, 2007 8:56 AM | Link to this

The idealist in me says that these changes are a good thing and NEEDED. That these changes will spur little Johnny to work harder and enforce personal accountability if he does not.

The realist in me says that all these changes will do is increase the pressure on teachers to inflate grades tenfold.

By KA

April 23, 2007 9:21 AM | Link to this

There are no do-overs in college to bring up your average. If you fail a class, that grade becomes part of your overall GPA. If you take the class again, because it may be a required class for the core curriculum or for your major, then that grade also gets factored into your average, and does not replace the failing grade. IMO HOPE requirements should be stricter, and in fact these new requirements act as a culling process for the students who really are not college ready and should not be given false ‘hope’ that they could succeed in college.

By jim d

April 23, 2007 9:29 AM | Link to this

Interesting points.

I origionally agreed with just me, and still feel the standards for hope elgibilty should be toughened. But how to do that without causing more grade inflation or descriminating?

Tieing in SAT or ACT scores might help with the grade inflation issues. But how do we deal with any possible socio-economic inequities in different high schools?

Any suggestions?

By Ernest

April 23, 2007 9:32 AM | Link to this

This looks like what everyone has been asking for, uniform and rigorous standards for HOPE eligibility. What is obvious per the new standards is that the local school system will not factor in a few categories. For the parents that were angered because they banked on this monies, I’ll paraphrase on old saying, “Don’t count on getting the HOPE scholarship until your eligibility is determined”.

By local student

April 23, 2007 9:35 AM | Link to this

Dealing with socio-economic inequality is way beyond the reach of HOPE.

It’s a really bad tool for that anyhow, since it kicks in after students have completed the majority of their academic career.

By jim d

April 23, 2007 9:41 AM | Link to this

Agreed Ernest,

I’ve been very outspoken for higher standards. Now the question becomes one of how to reach those standards equitably with inner city students that may not have the advantages offered at many of our suburban high schools.

By jim d

April 23, 2007 9:45 AM | Link to this

local student,

Agreed it isn’t hope that must deal with these issues. It is us as society that must deal with them by eliminating the disparity at the high school level, even at the elementary level so that we afford every child the same opportunities to succeed.

By OldSchool

April 23, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

KA, there absolutely are ways to “do over” college classes. My daughter needed a C or better in a math class. She is not a very strong math person and managed only a D at MTSU. She came home for the summer, took the class at an area college along with a required US History class (HOPE paid for both and she was classed as a “transient” student) and passed both with high B’s. While the first math class was still on her records, the B was accepted and calculated in.

If a student takes a failed class over and passes, the passing grade is the one calculated in. The other one just is there. By the way, her final GPA overall was a 3.4 and in her major she had a 3.85. Pretty good for a Georgia public high school graduate.

As a side note: I’m delighted with the prospect of ASL being considered to fulfill the foreign language requirement in Georgia.

By local student

April 23, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

jim d, I couldn’t agree more. My idea would be to spend more money at the front end—-Pre K and lower grades.

I feel like I have a great advantage because my middle-class parents could give me a lot at that stage in my life. They taught me to read and generally did a lot of things to provide enrichment for me before I ever got to the age where most kids start learning in the public schools. Kids can’t make up for that at a later stage, no matter how hard they work.

The State can’t make parents read to their kids. Or take them to the zoo or museum instead of Six Flags. There is a limited amount of influence that Schools have on preparing you for life, so we need to increase that influence any way we can.

Education is like saving for your retirement. If you start early, it’s so much more effective. In my opinion anyway, but I’m not a teacher.

By catlady

April 23, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this

I agree with posters about how this could lead to more grade inflation and less-difficult course-taking. I don’t think state officials had any clue that there would be the kind of grade inflation there has been (they did not talk to education folks first, or some of these unintended consequences could have been avoided, such as class dropping and extended time to degree completion in college). That kids could fail courses and not have it “count” is mind-blowing. That graduates getting HOPE would test into Developmental Studies is mind-blowing, and those students should never get HOPE unless they earn their way in while in college. Perhaps tie it to SAT/ACT AND mandating that REAL college prep level classes must be taken with appropriate grades on EOCTs to be eligible. Kids should not be taking lump lump math or English and still be eligible for HOPE, IMHO. This adds a burden to the high schools, but I think HOPE should be a real SCHOLARSHIP program. With the savings of getting marginally qualified students out of the trough (which they can earn back with appropriate effort in college), perhaps add a living stipend for HOPE scholars to pay part of their living expenses. Make it a REAL sweet deal, instead of an entitlement for basic work.

By Jeff

April 23, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

KA and Old School:

Here’s how that process works (and I should know, as I had one class in particular that this applied to):

Take a class, get a grade. EVERY class you take is calculated as your Grade Point Average.

Get a bad grade in a class, decide you want to take it over. Take it over, make a better grade. This better grade replaces your original grade ONLY in your ADJUSTED Grade Point Average. Your original Grade Point Average is NOT affected other than to repeat the “Take a class, get a grade” scenario. Note that as far as the GPA is concerned, it does not matter that you took the same class twice. Your AGPA, on the other hand, takes the better of any attempts in the class and ONLY uses the HIGHEST grade from the class.

My case: Take Modern Algebra. Get an F. This F goes into the GPA. Take Modern Algebra again the next semester. Get an A. This A goes into the GPA. (GPA now holds both an F and an A.) AGPA kicks in, notices that I have an F and an A for the same class, rejects the F. (Only the A remains in AGPA, GPA still holds both F and A.)

Hence, college grads can actually have three different numbers to report to employers: GPA, AGPA, and Major GPA (GPA from only classes within the Major).

And you thought resume fibbing was blatant…..

By teach overseas

April 23, 2007 10:11 AM | Link to this

If high school students are not getting a B average in core classes- and yes, for a college bound student, a foreign language is a core, they should not be getting a free ride to college.

Keep in mind that students CAN fail a class and still get a HOPE scholarship, they just have to balance out that F with higher grades. And quite frankly, it’s REALLY HARD to get a failing grade in high school these days. If you are failing Algebra II and don’t get yourself some extra help (in the form of extra support from your teacher- FREE!) you don’t really have any hope of getting a B in college.

And let’s be honest here- it’s a SCHOLARship- it’s for SCHOLARS. If you really can’t get through Algebra or English at the high school level, you are not a scholar- at least not a publically funded one

I don’t think this will lead to a drive of lower level classes- you may get the HOPE- but you still have to get into the college you want. And if you want to get into UGA- you better be taking those high level classes (and getting A’s!)

A huge amount of HOPE money has been wasted on kids who had NO HOPE of doing well in college in the first place. I applaud the efforts to use this money in a more efficient manner.

By Jeff

April 23, 2007 10:11 AM | Link to this

catlady:

I like the idea of an appropriately high EOCT score in all core classes as well. Say 80? (Commonly accepted low end of a “B”.)

Problem with that is that then state officials will keep watering down the standards needed to hit that mark…

By catlady

April 23, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

Actually, KA, Jeff, and others, I think how schools handle do overs and GPAs varies from state to state or institution to institution. I have seen it handled several different ways in the different institutions in which I have matriculated. Like other things about our great country, there are many different ways of addressing the same issue.

By catlady

April 23, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I think you are right about state officials watering down standards on the EOCT if they were used to help determine HOPE. However, that is another battle to fight. Using the SAT, which is not open to individual states’ manipulations, would help keep it honest (and state ed officials SHOULD be demanding answers on why students “qualify” for HOPE but have to take Developmental Studies or “qualify” for HOPE but have SATs of 900 or “qualify” for HOPe but failed the EOCT on core classes) High schools that produce these “honor” students should be investigated and sanctioned, IMHO. A panel of “experts”—people who have been in the classroom as teachers recently— could look at their course syllabi and samples of “acceptable” work, for example, to determine if the basis for the high number of subaverage “honors” students was watered down grading standards.

By KA

April 23, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this

Old School, read my post again, you are repeating just what I said. By do-over, in HS they replace the old faiing grade with the new grade. NOT SO in college where as I said and you repeated that both grades are factored into the average. As the B average is critical in college to retaining the HOPE, should the same standards be used in HS and both grades are factored into the GPA, and may result in less than a B avg required to qualify for HOPE initially.

By jim d

April 23, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

Local student,

Here are a few thoughts, many of which have been posted here before.

Eliminate NCLB: This could possibly bring administrative support back to teachers in the classroom, eliminating the students that aren’t interested in an education. It would definitely add days that could be spent instructing rather than on meaningless test prep and testing.

Change funding methods: Allowing poorer districts a larger portion of state and federal funding. This would have little affect on richer districts since the majority of educational funding is raised on the local level. (Gwinnett wouldn’t miss a million $)

Demand more financial transparency in school governance

Raise the bar for all teachers.

Provide incentives for teachers to accept jobs in lower performing schools. Quit dumping less qualified teachers into these schools.

Require all administrators to spend time in the classroom on a regular basis.

Encourage parental involvement through choice schools.

Provide more alternatives in Technical training and apprenticeship programs for students that don’t aspire to a college education.

Encourage students to explore options so they can pursue a trade if they prefer learning a trade to attending college. Here’s one I’m familiar with.

http://www.iecatlanta.com/Education_Training/ApprenticeshipBrochureGeorgia06.pdf

While these are but a few ideas to reform our educational system. I believe any combination of them would have a profound impact on how well students could be prepared for the future and how effectively they could become contributing members of society.

By SET

April 23, 2007 10:44 AM | Link to this

Adding the SAT and other such national tests would be a good way to combat grade inflation and to keep the declining standards at one school from taking away from the honest grades at another school. At least disqualify anyone who’s standardized test scores fall below 70th percentile.

Frankly we have too many students saying they are “college bound” when it’s clear by 10th grade that they are poor students and dubious college material. And yes, foreign language is a college prerequisite at any decent college I’ve seen. If you can’t manage that you probably are deficient in English too.

Where is the HOPE Plan for vocational training? There are a number of certificates (In this State) where the holders make a good living. The bottom 2/3 of high school students should be familiarized with these programs (and prerequisites) and the payscales of these occupations as part of 9th and 10th grade. And we need more funding for them and less funding for college bound.

By jim d

April 23, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

Old school,

Re: hope elgibility hypothetical.

A student has historically maintained a B average.

Jr. year of high school lands a teacher that student just has a problem with—(teaching or learning no matter) they just don’t agree. Student ends up failing with a 60.

Student retakes class and passes with an 80.

Factoring the 2 grades would leave the student with a 70 and no Hope elgibility as I understand it.

Should we be concerned over this one grade? Or should student have to foot the bill for college until they earn Hope back? I really have no problem with the latter but can see how lower income families could be affected.

By JustMe

April 23, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

Colleges don’t care if the students come from urban high schools or rural high schools.

I am all for a minimum SAT and/or minimum ACT requirement as well.

By teach overseas

April 23, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

Jim-

your hypothetical student-

In college- where this students hopes to go- there will be MANY profs who cannot teach- they don’t go to college to teach- they research and publish. There will be TA’s from foreign countries with difficult accents- there will be a host of “problems” the student will have to overcome.

At the high school level- students and teachers don’t “agree”. The teacher teaches and the student learns. If the kid really hates the teacher- for WHATEVER reason and your money is tied to getting this class with a B- shut your mouth, get the book out and do WHATEVER you have to do to get the B.

I’m not at all impressed with a kid who re-takes the SAME class with the SAME material and only gets an 80. You are seriously scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

I think most of us who went to college(especially big name colleges) had some awe-inspiring profs who really knew how to draw a class in and were passionate about teaching students- but I also had my fair share of drudges who I just had to get through anyway I could. That’s life in college- even with a big sticker price!

By JustMe

April 23, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

jim d-

If the student has an overall average in core classes of B or better, that is all that matters. A student could fail one class (for whatever reason) and still have an overall average in core classes of B or better. Mathematically, I would guess that a student could actually fail more than one core class and still get HOPE under these new guidelines.

What’s the problem?

By OldSchool

April 23, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

I’m still wondering why the foreign language requirement for college prep exists across the board. I took 2 years of French in high school and never had another foreign language throughout my entire college career…all the way through my masters (unless you count Electronics which is still a bit foreign to me.)

I can see some languages for specific future majors like Spanish for medical fields or law enforcement but for this shop teacher (Industrial Arts Education) French was just silly.

By jim d

April 23, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

Just me & TOS,

No problem here really. As I understand it (and I could be wrong). If a student missed even one grade by .1 of maintaining a 3.0 GPA in just one class and maintained a perfect 3.0 in every other class the student would end up with something less than a 3.0 GPA, actually something like a 2.994 without factoring the retaken class in.

Certainly this student could go on to college and earn hope later, provided they could afford it. I was simply pointing out what may become a problem for someone that couldn’t afford it.

I’m really not up for a debate on this today but it occurs to me that if one places much faith in what William Pitt the Younger, The Earl of Chatham and British Prime Minister from 1766 to 1778 said in a speech to the UK House of Lords in 1770: “Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it” One might question whether or not we want to place that type of power in the hands of a single teacher. Since I’m 100% confident all teachers aren’t human and would never take out frustrations with a parent on a child, I’m not questioning their integrity, merely throwing out a “what if

By HB

April 23, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

I’m curious as to why a numerical grade equivalent is no longer allowed to substitute for a 4.0-scale. Don’t individual systems determine the grade scale? For example, at my high school the scale was A=93-100, B=85-92, C=77-84, D=70-76, F=<70. They always provided a separate numerical average for Hope, because “C” students with a GPA of 2.8 or 2.9 could have an average as high as 84. A numerical average also is more accurate because an 89 isn’t the weighted the same as an 80. Seems like this will encourage schools/teachers to bump grades when they’re close to the cut off.

By JustMe

April 23, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

jim d-

I still fail to see how one teacher has that much power….

The requirement is an average of all core classes throughout the high school career. Since there are 5 core subjects and there are 4 years, that is a lot of grades that will be averaged.

I don’t see one teacher having that much “power” over a student’s overall average here.

If a student is on the fence as in your example, I think that the student has other issues than dealing with a single teacher.

Bottom line is that the requirements to get HOPE are very clear. Students know what they must do to get HOPE. If they want HOPE, they must do whatever it takes to meet the requirements.

By erica

April 23, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

I would have preferred to tie SATs to the HOPE. However, if this does push mediocre students out of honors classes, then maybe the honors classes will actually contain bright students again. Then the kids at the left of the bell curve will stay in regular classes where they belong and my kids won’t have to suffer through watered down “honors” curriculum.

As is stands now, my kids can only learn something in AP, and it would be nice for them to be able to balance some AP classes with honors classes without having to deal with slow learners.

Then, the kids with the lower level classes (because they get scared out of honors classes) will only get into lower level colleges where they can keep the HOPE and work at a difficulty level that is commensurate with their abilities rather than clogging up spaces at UGA and Tech only to lose their scholarship and drop out after a year.

If 1/3 less get the HOPE, that’s the way it should be. 99% of that group would lose it in a year anyway, so why waste the money. By saving lottery funds that are spent on HOPE more money can be spent on early childhood education so that one day we do legitimately have more HOPE scholars. Early childhood is where the money goes the furthest.

By jim d

April 23, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

Surely I’m not the only one that opened Bridget’s links.

They’ve done away with the numerical equivalency and gone to a 3.0 on a true 4.0 scale.

Taken away any weighting of grades for AP and IB by the local schools and placed it in the hands of the Georgia student finance commission.

And instead of taking it on only the required classes, has factored in all classes attempted in those subjects.

What becomes an issue is that by taking 4 years of science, social studies or foreign language and not acing all for years would reduce hope eligibility. I honestly don’t expect it to take students long to figure this out and start padding their GPA with easy classes after they once meet college requirements.

Have I missed something here? Or is it possible that this will continue the downward spiral, dumbing education down even further?

By decaturparents

April 23, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

I’m all for it actually. I really don’t like to see money wasted and if this reduces the number of kids that lose the HOPE and drop out after one year, it is good to be able to take that money and redirect it to something more useful to GA kids. One year of college (spent partying) doesn’t do much for future earning potential.

I presume that it will be redirected into something useful like pre-K or adult literacy or something other than pork.

The only thing that is problematic for me is how sudden the change was. This really does create problems for parents with kids in 11th or 12th grade that were counting on HOPE. I would have liked to see them phase it in over 4 years or grandfather current juniors/seniors.

By AR

April 23, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

We’re one of the families affected. My son has an 85 GPA, however with the new rules, which we had forgotten about since they were adopted in 2004, he is not eligible for HOPE. He is college bound, he is going to a small private college, we’re sorry that he won’t have the additional $3000 to help pay for it, but we’ll deal with it. He hasn’t done his best in high school. When the atmosphere is that it isn’t cool to be smart, classes are too large, and classes are full of people who don’t want to be there and talk and disrupt classes it’s very difficult to stay motivated. We think that once he gets to this college with very small classes that are full of people who want to be there and are at least as smart as he is he’s going to blossom! I can’t wait to see it!

By jim d

April 23, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

AR,

Once in college, he still may earn HOPE.

Best of luck!

By catlady

April 23, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this

The changes in HOPE were announced when the current seniors were starting 9th grade, I believe. There has been plenty of time for folks to adjust their expectations of receiving it. It has not been sprung on anyone.

jim d’s example would be problematic, except, as just me points out, there are lots of grades that go into the gpa. A 70 avg for a do over won’t hurt if your other grades are good. But you can’t do the minimum and expect your 80s in other classes to pull you through.

What I see a lot of is students doing the minimum: taking the lowest level class they can and making an 80 in it. We talk about raising the bar, but then we don’t reward it.

I also question the logic behind “rounding down”. Can anyone explain the thinking on it? It does seem like the temptation would be for a 78 to become a B (there would be a lot of pressure brought to bear).

By high school teacher

April 23, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

Old School,

Most liberal arts majors must have at least three foreign language classes. When I began as an English major, I had to have four. When I switched to English Education, I had to take three.

Several of you mention taking the lowest possible class - do you mean a non-honors class? In our somewhat-still-rural school system, we don’t have levels of classes - just college prep and honors level classes. The lowest math class we have is Algebra 1, which I thought was a state-wide standard. Guess not.

Beginning in 08-09, our system is only offering one diploma - a college prep diploma.

By Jeff

April 23, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

More Thought Police fallout from VT…

By jim d

April 23, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this

HST,

You gotta be in Gwinnett.

I still guestion the wisdom of a CP only curriculum. What’s to happen to the large majority of students that either opt out of college, don’t pull the grades to get in, or wash out in the first year? How is this preparing these youngsters?

I guess I’ll just set back and watch this cluster *&^% happen.

By high school teacher

April 23, 2007 1:21 PM | Link to this

jim d,

No, I am far, far, away from Gwinnett… west of Douglas County but still in the state of Georgia…

I, too, question the wisdom of putting all kids in a box and offering the same curriculum. Do we really want all kids going to college?

A statistic that I came across recently… China’s goal is to send 15-20% of its population to college. That means around 2015, China will have more college graduates than the United States has people.

By jim d

April 23, 2007 1:21 PM | Link to this

Yeah jeff,

What the prof had to say on utube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlJDyMXvsiY

By jim d

April 23, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this

HST,

non honors wasn’t what I meant.

Many colleges only require 2-3 years of social studies and science and only 2 years of foriegn language. Students could take basket weaving and not affect their chances from a GPA persective where taking additional science, social studies or four years of foriegn language might have an adverse affect.

By Zoe

April 23, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this

Some colleges replace grades when a class is repeated, some do not. I went to two different schools and each had its own policy. One replaced the grade of the classes retaken, one averaged everything in. The one that factored everything in was up north, the one that did not was here in good ole Georgia. I do not think this is a bad idea, teaching students to be accountable the first time around is wonderful.

To answer the question of why GPA and not numerical average….

75 + 85= average of 80 C + B = average of 2.5 C + A= average of 3.0

70 + 90 = 80 D + A = 2.5 D + A + A = 3.0

So if a student earns grades below a B, all the student has to do is earn grades of As to make up for it. If a student can not do that, perhaps that says something. Why is it acceptable for a student to earn HOPE when half of the grades earned are Cs? Then we bemoan the number of students dropping out after HOPE is lost.

Also, as a teacher of zero, seventh. summer AND virtual high school at various times over the years, while no one wanted to admit it, it is A LOT easier to pass those classes. Attendance is required and usually all work is done in class. The only way a student could fail is by not attending and we take care of that by dropping them from the rolls. I dropped half of my seventh period this semester after they didn’t show up. Many actually thought they’d pass by just having their names listed.

As a high school teacher, I think this is a great idea. Now the key is to make sure teachers are not bullied into grade changing.

By V for Vendetta

April 23, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

Sigh, yet more reasons to promote grade inflation and the stupid (but misguided) notion that ALL students should go to college. Please. If we really wanted to help students we would cut some of this money from HOPE and use it to create more technical level schools and thus more choices. I agree with what many have said, this idea will work for the short term, but not for the long term.

Is it really so hard to understand that not every child can (or should) go to college? I think limiting the number of kids who are a drain on society (through wellfare, jail, etc.) should be step one. Adding more CHOICE into the system would be a good start.

Does anyone realize the great irony behind HOPE to begin with? The lowest socio-economic demographics are the ones supporting the middle-class kids’ educations. I don’t really care to be honest since it’s your own choice to buy a lottery ticket. It was just an observation.

By OldSchool

April 23, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this

high school teacher(12:50 PM) Neither of my daughters were required to take any foreign language during their college careers (Berry and MTSU) but both took Spanish as an elective because they just plain enjoyed it and did very well. They had an amazing Spanish teacher here at our South Georgia (rural) high school. One majored in Public Relations and Communications and the other was a Recording Industry (Marketing and Business) major. Neither I (industrial arts education) nor my husband (a history major) were required to take any foreign language in our college careers.

(By the way, I know that last sentence is a stinker…I’m a shop teacher not an English professor…teehee!)

By catlady

April 23, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

V, and did you know that since the inception of HOPE, Georgia has drastically cut its (state) gift aid to needy students? There is still (federal) Pell, of course, and needy students can get (federal)loans, but Georgia now uses its HOPE grant (available by “achievement”, rather than need) instead of state sponsored gift aid. And HOPE goes, disproportionately, to middle and upper class students.

Zoe, let the bullying begin! Ha, Ha! it is already pretty entrenched.

Folks, aspiration is important, but so is (real) achievement! I know too many kids who plan to go to college and become teachers but cannot themselves read above 4th grade level or do fractions. How do they think it happens?

By jim d

April 23, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

Cat, here’s a couple of more people tend to forget or aren’t aware of other than the Federal Pell Grant

Federal Supplemental Educational Opportunity Grant (FSEOG)

Leveraging Educational Assistance Partnership (LEAP)

Academic Competitiveness Grant (ACG)

Federal Work-Study (FWS)

National Science and Math Access to Retain Talent (SMART)

By OldSchool

April 23, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this

And, jim dear, for those students who want to attend college out of state and are planning on majoring in the qualifying areas, there is the Academic Common Market. It saved us close to $12,000 each year in out of state tuition and enabled our youngest to go to MTSU (Middle Tenn State U) and get an excellent education.

I think the site sreb.gov or sreb.org. Heck, just google the Academic Common Market.

By jim d

April 23, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

Thanks, will do

By catlady

April 23, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

jim, I may have it confused with something else, but I think Georgia has been bypassing putting in its match of the SEOG money and thus not getting nearly as much as it was before HOPE. The numbers I saw were quite dramatically different pre and post. If Ga does not put in its portion, it does not get bulk of the federal money for this program for students from very financially limited backgrounds.

By catlady

April 23, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this

Oops! It is the SIG (State Incentive Grant) money that has fallen off tremendously since HOPE began. So much for memory! Anyone who is interested in college financial aid issues should check out Tom Mortensen, an independent, well-respected researcher.

By catlady

April 23, 2007 5:07 PM | Link to this

Old School, my understanding of the ACM is that it is available to use in certain, agreeing states and that your child has to major in something NOT offered in any of the Georgia public colleges (for example, if Binary Nuclear Chemistry—I made that up—were not offered in Georgia but was offered at UT, a student might be given instate tuition status to go there.) Is that correct?

By Lisa B.

April 23, 2007 5:31 PM | Link to this

I agree with Vendetta’s 2:14 post.

Many students benefit from technical education rather than traditional college. The tech school where my husband teaches has a 98% placement rate for its graduates. Unfortunately, the Governor just cut funding for the new building the tech school had been promised and desperately needs.

HOPE helps tech school students tremendously. I hope it continues. For many students, tech school is their best chance for success. Many of these gainfully employed graduates came from poor socio-economic backgrounds. In this instance, HOPE does help poorer students; probably more so than middle and upper class children.

By jim d

April 23, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

cat,

you may be right, I haven’t been following state grants. There appears though to be private money available for grants as well as the federal programs I mentioned earlier.

The bottom line is that if a student wants to attend ccollege there is little reason stopping them. They must do some home work and apply apply apply.

By catlady

April 23, 2007 6:57 PM | Link to this

Amen, brother Jim! Too bad some folks think HOPE is the ONLY way. GSFA has done a fair job in getting the word out about HOPE, but not so good on getting the word out about non-HOPE alternatives.

The financial part is just like the admission part: you may not be eligible everywhere you might want to go, but you can go somewhere, prove yourself, and transfer if you wish. You may not want to take out loans, or you may want the “prestige” of getting HOPE, but if you don’t get it there are other ways to pay for your education. After you show your abilities, you can get HOPE later in your academic career. That, to me, is one of the pluses to the program as it stands. We Americans are big believers in second and third chances. (On the negative side, we are also big believers in entitlements, too.)

By jim d

April 24, 2007 8:08 AM | Link to this

Cat,

Georgian’s have become so dependent upon HOPE largely due to the states advertising campaign to keep kids in state. While this may prove to be a good thing for Georgia, I’m not too sure it is for the individuals that might actually benefit from attending an out of State College.

Indeed there is a lot of other funding available. Keep in mind when researching these funds though that there are a lot of scam artists out there just waiting to take ones money. Here’s a link to help identify some of those scams that I’ve found quite helpful.

https://www.collegedata.com/cs/content/contentpayarticletmpl.jhtml?articleId=10129

By JustMe

April 24, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

Question - If a student cannot even qualify for HOPE, are they really college material?

I know that people change. I realize that some people don’t try in high school and suddenly become good students after they get their high school diploma. But, I feel that these are rather rare cases.

Not getting HOPE doesn’t close the door to college. It just means that you have to find other paths to finance it.

By WFC

April 24, 2007 9:14 AM | Link to this

By OldSchool

April 24, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this

Just Me at 9:03 a.m.: I had a student one year whose first question to me was “What is the minimum work I have to do to just pass?” I told him and that’s exactly what he did. And not just in my class. He performed at minimum levels in all his senior year classes. His plan was to simply enjoy his last year and still pass everything.

Several years later, I ran into him at an area hospital where he was an excellent phlebotomist (excuse the spelling). It is now a few years after that and he is a medical school graduate interning at a major hospital.

Smart kids are often slackers for various reasons. That kid had a plan and is following it to a rewarding conclusion.

By OldSchool

April 24, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this

Catlady (from yesterday at 5:07) you are quite right about ACM. Think about this though, far too many of our students have a very limited career vocabulary or just don’t “think outside the box” when it comes to majors. I’ve had several of my students just look through the ACM offerings and some have discovered careers that are great fits for them.

No, not every major falls under the ACM guidelines but it certainly gives students options they never knew they had.

By catlady

April 24, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this

Old School, you are right about their limited career (and otherwise) vocabulary. What astounds me as much is that middle and high school students have NO CLUE as to how you get from point A to point B. Example: Do you have to go to college to teach first grade? In all of our teaching the 5,000 (and more being added daily) things, we have little time for career education (except for a perfunctory stab at Career Day), and no time at all to show children how to find out WHAT it takes to pursue any career. Of course, many of our students come from homes where things “just happen” and their parents think long-range planning is thinking about what you will do next week. And how can they shadow, or even interview, a given professional—they have to work to pay for their cars!

By FAMUS

May 3, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

So what happens if I have a 3.75 GPA and I fail one class my freshman year? Will I still have HOPE if this occurs?

By JustMe

May 3, 2007 1:09 PM | Link to this

FAMUS -

You need to look on the GA DOE web site site for the most current HOPE rules.

As I understand, it is not the overall gpa that matters, but rather your core gpa. And yes, fresman grades count.