Get Schooled

By 4th yr in Hell

April 18, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

The difficulty with these trainings is that in a span of maybe 4 hours you are trying to convey the idea of empathy to students. Some may walk away helped like the girl you mentioned but for the majority of High School age students empathy is a concept not easily grasped. Empathy needs to be taught at a young age and reinforced thoughout childhood. If empathy is not a theme in the home growing up, I’m afraid to say that empathy will probably never be realized with a student’s mindset.

By Jeff

April 18, 2007 8:51 AM | Link to this

OK, over the past day, this has been bugging me:

People keep commenting on his writings, how graphic they were and how dark they were. They try to imply that this somehow led to his shooting spree.

Ladies and gentlemen, this may surprise you, but I have written some pretty dark and graphic tales in my life. I have also seen students write things that were very dark (though much of it was about suicide rather than homicide).

HOWEVER, many people write to DEAL with the feelings, not because they are ever going to ACT on those feelings. After all, would you rather a person sort through this with a pen and paper or bullets and bombs? We ALL feel this way at times.

No father can honestly tell me that he wouldn’t WANT to absolutely DESTROY any man who ever raped his daughter in the most graphic, slow, painful ways possible. Does that mean he will? NO!!

So why do we get so upset about these writings and say “We should have known because of this?” Just because he is writing does NOT mean that he would execute on his plans. Note that I would say this even if a story turns up written by him long ago talking about a guy who tests security, stages a diversionary attack on one side of a complex, then attacks his real target on the other side.

Again, my point: Just because someone WRITES does NOT mean that they will ACT.

By jim d

April 18, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this

Bridget,

Maybe, but I do have a bit of a problem saddling the schools with more of our civic duties as individuals.

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2007 9:10 AM | Link to this

Jeff, good point. And one that I feel is going to be very relevant in the near future. However, let me add this:

I think a truly vigilant teacher can tell the difference between writing that is cathartic and writing that is disturbing. Lots of kids write to deal with pain, for shock value, or to test the limits, but some take it to another level. I think when you look at his writing AND compare it with his outward demeanor towards other people, some warning signs seem to present themselves. Years ago I had a student who wrote some pretty disturbing things about himself and others. He became withdrawn and unfriendly. I suggested the counselors sit down and have a chat with him. Before they could, he ran away and disappeared for a week. Luckily, he was found unhurt and sought help for his issues.

That all having been said, I don’t think it is ANYONE’s responsibility other than the parents to look at a child, know he is hurting, and help him through it. I am positively disgusted by the indifference so many parents have toward their kids, especially kids who are so obviously crying out for attention, support, help, love, whatever.

I know, I know, this sounds awfully cuddly coming from me, but my true attitude is slightly more, uh, extreme. I’ll keep it to myself.

We can all sit around the fire and sing songs, hold hands, and tell each other how wonderful and unique each of us truly is, but that’s a load of crap. The real therapy or psychiatric help should begin with the parents. Yet again we are putting the burden on everyone else. Yet again we are expecting teachers, administrators, counselors, and friends to take the place of honest-to-god parenting.

Freaking pathetic.

Wake up parents! I have a newsflash for you: Most of you SUCK. You’re pathetic, indifferent, ignorant pieces of garbage that shouldn’t have reproduced in the first place. Unfortunately having kids isn’t something you have to earn, which is why any moron with the “parts” can do it. Maybe it should be, because it seems to me the parents who actually CARE are becoming fewer and fewer. You’re witnessing the virus of stupid take over folks. Some people think I say that as a joke, but I mean every word. Humans are the only species on the planet that seem to de-evolving and it’s all because of the virus of stupid.

And it’s spreading.

DISCLAIMER: Before you get all p**, just by commenting on here you are not one of the parents I am talking about. By taking part in this blog, you are demonstrating that you care more about your children in five minutes than some parents do in a year. Think about that.

By OldSchool

April 18, 2007 9:11 AM | Link to this

Jeff, the more I listen to the interviews with the students who knew him, the instructors and other school personnel who worked with him, the more I’m convinced that the dots were there but were never (and likely would not ever have been) connected.

Would his roommate have read his writings? Could a counselor have shared information with the roommate (or vice versa) or the teacher that might have made the connections that could have prevented the tragedy?

Is a sweet, quiet family all it seems to outsiders or is there something sinister going on there that should raise suspicions?

WE are all outsiders depending on a slanted media for information. The media are seizing on bits and pieces and trying to expand or at least get others to make a bigger story out of the bits. WE don’t have all the facts. WE were not there. WE are putting our own spin on things.

I don’t doubt that writers of dark things don’t always act on them but the instructor in this particular case was uneasy…not only from the writings but the student himself and wanted him removed from class.

Dots don’t always get connected because we often don’t know where the next dot is or if there even IS a next dot. We are human. We have flaws. Some flaws become deadly ones and there is nothing we can do about it. But there is the one time we can…if we can put all the pieces together in time. This was likely not that one time.

By Jeff

April 18, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this

V and OldSchool:

Y’all are regulars. You know most of my story. A kid such as me (and especially ones with more severe AS) would present EXACTLY the way this guy did: withdrawn and unconnected, a “loner”. (Heck, I distinctly remember that my second grade teacher used a prize-type system for classroom management. She had a drawing every week with differnt privileges listed on folded paper. My favorite two? “Sit at teacher’s desk” or “move desk away from others”)

My fear is that people will start trying to “connect” with those they identify as “loners” to prevent this stuff, or make them seek counseling or some other such nonsense. From my experience, that only leads to frustration on the part of the loner, which could then lead to exactly the events they are trying to prevent.

By Stacey

April 18, 2007 9:50 AM | Link to this

I agree with Jeff that dark writing are not necessarily an indication that the writer is capable of this level of violence. According to news reports, the suspect was an English major which may have led some to conclude that his was a talented writer. There is a whole genre of dark, graphic literature but I would be surprised to learn that any of those writers are capable of mass murder.

I find the reports that the suspect faced previous disciplinary action for starting a fire in the dorm and stalking female students disturbing. I’m not sure of the validity of those reports but if they are true, I question why he was still in school. As is often the case in such situations, people are going to throw out a hundred different theories as to why authorities “should have known” this was going to happen but as the expression goes hindsight is 20/20.

By WFC

April 18, 2007 9:54 AM | Link to this

A horrible fact of life in a free society: there are many insane/suicidal people walking around and very little we can do about it.

What could have prevented the magnitude of the VT tragedy? It’s simple. If every classroom and dorm room door had been solid steel and lockable from a central location. That’s what’s called a “prison.”

Any person willing to give up his/her own life can wreak havoc. Does anyone believe that tougher gun control laws would have stopped this psycho? I only wish it were true.

I am not an NRA supporter nor do I own a gun. But, I have to wonder if things would have been better if one sane person in that first classroom had had a gun.

By decaturparent

April 18, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

You know, I keep asking myself what happened to Seung-Hui as a child to make him so disturbed. I read some of his plays and he has a lot of sexual anger in them, particularly towards male adults/authority figures. I have to wonder if he was sexually abused as a child. Does anyone know anything about his family life/childhood?

Are people actually born this way or are they made this way by being traumatized as children? Question for a whole new blog I guess.

Re the school culture thing. Decatur is big time into that stuff. We do ELOB in our primary schools and a big part of that is community building. We do IB in grades 4-5 which includes similar emphasis on community building. Does it work? From what I have seen, yes, but it’s not perfect. Like everything, a lot of it seems to depend on how good the teacher is at delivering it.

By SET

April 18, 2007 10:05 AM | Link to this

Steps have been taken for a long time now to deal with mentally ill and violent people both in school and in the community. Among other things these steps include applied violence against those who are deemed a danger to themselves or others.

When steps are taken a lot of people cry boo hoo and say that we are being too mean, to severe, etc and etc.

People are being locked up in state hospitals and forcibly medicated. People are being confined in State Concentration Camps for Sexually Violent Predators after their prison terms expire because they are sexually deviant and have a history or raping or molesting.

Schools and Colleges are no longer just warning people who chase after their love objects and threaten them (overtly or by inferences). They are being arrested and taken through the courts, forced into psychological treatment and put on probation (watched and searched) for years (and put on No Gun lists - they are arrested if they try to purchase a gun). If you actually assault and batter the love object, the penalties are felony penalties.

Make no mistake these are very tough sanctions. After VA Tech maybe more jurisdictions will get the point. It’s pretty obvious that what happened only occurred after many points where forcible intervention could have occurred.

But when things toughen up after this - a lot of people will be made very uncomfortable, and this is a big understatement. And the “discomfort” extends to the “victims” being protected when the breadwinner loses employment, housing is lost and relationships are forced to end because of external pressure applied following even a verbal argument. I might add that employers won’t hire people with messy personal lives. As part of backgrounding, civil litigation and restraining orders are discovered and “victims” are denied employment because of things written in restraining order cases.

All this dialog is outside the chaos of the VA Tech murders. I’m angry that all those people died because VA Tech as a system was indifferent to dangerous mental illness. But this is just part of what happens when people and systems don’t take care of themselves. People get hurt. You can also hurt a lot of people while preventing Maniacs for acting.

Finding the balance between the two will be very controversial. It can be like a pendulum going back and forth.

By jim d

April 18, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

Isn’t 20/20 hind sight a wonderful thing?

By jim d

April 18, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this

Breaking news.

Another Scare Rattles Va. Tech Campus

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/shared-gen/ap/National/VirginiaTechShooting.html?imw=Y

By SET

April 18, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this

Here’s an excellent column by Michelle Malkin about Security issues and colleges:

http://www.vdare.com/malkin/070417selfdefense.htm

I was a UC Berkeley when Patty Hearst was kidnapped. I remember students going into the administrative building to rip their personal information out of the public files after that incident.

it isnot inthe nature of large systems such as Universities to ever protect the individual. Political considerations will always come first. You are ultimately the best person to protect yourself.

By MP

April 18, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

The murders on campus should not have happened. The first shooting was at 7:00 am. The authorities assumed, took a guess if you will that it was a murder suicide. Why? Because the dead happen to be a man and a women. They had no witnesses to the shooting or even a note left behind to confirm these assumptions but they were sure this HAD to be what happened. I don’t understand this. Without confirmation of any kind giving solid proof of exactly what happened they should have locked down the entire school. This is law enforcement 101 people. Two people dead, no witnesses, no note, no shooter in custody, you do one thing…immediately lock it down. Because an “assumption” backed by no absolute proof was the prevailing thought and course of action employed by the authorities on hand 30 additional people lost their lives. 30 additional families are falling apart. This makes absolutely no sense. This was not the first case of a school shooting in this country. Far from it, which is why preventative measures needed to follow immediately after 7am. Instead they pretty much closed the case based on a “guess”, which is insane. When two people are shot dead and you have no proof—no actual facts of what has taken place the procedure is clear. Lock it down and start looking for the truth of what is happening. The most important thing should have been keeping everyone else safe. You can’t do that with an assumption. Instead 30 more lives were lost based on someones guess. This is not acceptable.

By One

April 18, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

It is not just about his writings….there are many disturbing pieces to the puzzle that people are just now putting together….and yes, hindsight is 20/20. And no, not all who write certain things will ever act on those things. Here are some things that are now being pieced together about this young man….

The gunman involved in the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history had previously been accused of stalking two female students and had been taken to a mental health facility in 2005. Cho Seung-Hui worried one woman enough with his calls and e-mail in 2005 that police were called in. In one incident, the department rececived a call from Cho’s parents who were concerned that he might be suicidal and he was taken to mental health facility. Cho’s roommates and professors on Wednesday described a troubled, very quiet young man who rarely spoke to his roommates or made eye contact with them. “It was not bad poetry. It was intimidating,” poet Nikki Giovanni, one of his professors, told CNN Wednesday. Giovanni said her students were so unnerved by Cho’s behavior, including taking pictures of them with his cell phone, that some stopped coming to class and she had security check on her room. She eventually had him taken out of her class, saying she would quit if he wasn’t removed. Cho’s writing was so disturbing, though, he was referred to the university’s counseling service. He said he and other students “were talking to each other with serious worry about whether he could be a school shooter. We always joked we were just waiting for him to do something, waiting to hear about something he did,” said another classmate.

By jim d

April 18, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

Set, your link failed but here’s another one to the Malkin article.

http://jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin041807.php3

By jim d

April 18, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this

Well then looking into the future with 20/20 vison one can safely assume it’s simply a matter of time before this incident repeats itself so let’s arm every student when they go off to college so they can defend themselves. Surely had everyone been armed someone would have taken this jerk out before he’d managed so much carnage.

By WillieSmith

April 18, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

So we are slowly that this little rat bastard who did these shootings exhibited so many of those little characteristics that the other PSYCHOS who do this type of garbage. Why must we always hear these sad little stories about the “withdrawn, loner”??

I periodically ask my daughter..”got any ‘weirdos’ in your class?”. “Any Goth or ‘withdrawn’ types?”. I also do what I can to play “what if” and instill my “street sense” into her; to teach her to better read shady situations. Call it stereotyping, I don’t care.

By ABS

April 18, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

It’s amazing to me that Nikki Giovanni was one of his professors. She is a class act. I’ve seen her at conferences and she is brilliant. I applaud her for saying that it is “crap” to say this kid is “troubled” he was simply “mean.” I couldn’t believe it this morning when Nikki Giovanni was on CNN…someone said it earlier…all the dots were there, but you don’t necessarily know there are dots to connect. AND…the people on this blog who are blaming the police…you talk so big…like I said yesterday, no one can get their head around something like this and someone has to be at fault…well, sometimes s** happens and there isn’t anything that can be done. Quit trying to lay blame…it’s pointless.

By ABS

April 18, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

No jm, we don’t need to arm all college students…are you nuts? We need to teach our kids how to deal with these socio-paths and the warning signs of this type of atypical behavior. As professionals in our field, we need to be able to recognize this behavior as well and have better options for dealing with these types. Dr. Giovanni did it right…she told her boss about it and refused to teach this kid because of his behavior. They referred him to counseling and he didn’t go…and believe it or not…you can’t make people go to counseling.

By mmm

April 18, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this

I tried to post for 45 minutes yesterday and it wouldn’t go—-my comment is almost the same.

WFC at 8:51 yesterday asked:

Please name me an organization prepared to deal with a suicidal psycho.

My answer:

The Amish.

What have we learned from their behavior either during or toward healing afterward?

Jeff, do you think that a society that believes in silence, community, forgiveness and sacrificial suffering for belief would have noticed and helped this young man had he been within their community?

By Jeff

April 18, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

ABS:

It comes down to “Do you trust government or not?”

I don’t.

And you shouldn’t.

By midga mom

April 18, 2007 11:45 AM | Link to this

Two points - 1) The media seems to be trying to present this as if it happened on a public high school campus. This was on a college campus, a public facility, and the gunman was an ADULT, not a child. Would the blame game be as intense if this had happened at the local shopping mall instead of on campus? 2) My daughter is a college student and yes I want her to be armed. She has the same constitutional rights to protect herself no matter where she is. I want her trained to use a handgun and I want her to have the right to carry it. I do NOT want her trying to be an amateur psychologist.

By Jeff

April 18, 2007 11:45 AM | Link to this

mmm:

I think that once he decided to go through with his actions, the only thing that could stop him was his own death.

As far as before he committed to his actions, you’ll play a “what-if” game forever if you let yourself. To your question though: I think they would have noted his isolationism, but I do not think they COULD have done anything about it - though I am certain they would have tried. The thing everyone has to remember is that for this behavior to be prevented, the person has to WANT to change. If this guy truly wanted to be left alone, NO ONE could force him into a group or to open up. Personally, I would have told him that he NEEDS to, that his extreme isolation will only destroy him - as it did.

I know that in my own period of darkness, it wasn’t until I scared myself that I even thought I had a problem, much less wanted to change.

By Janine

April 18, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this

Bridget, Re your queston about your naivete and : Is it possible that the best defense against such tragedies simply doing more to create a true school community where people reach out to each other

My answer is a simple yes, you are naive to believe the above. There is little even the most compassionate person can do. THere were many who tried to reach out to this young man. Not the least of whom was the ENglish professor who tutored him one on one after Nikki Giovanni threatened to resign unless he was removed from her class. His parents contacted the university and had him taken to a mentla health facility because they thought he might be suicidal. There have been numerous interviews with classmates and roommates who tried to ‘reach out’….. In our country,when a person emits signals that malevolent acts may be coming, all we can do is report and remain vigilant.

By JustMe

April 18, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

ABS -

To answer your question… I have come to the conclusion that yes, jim d is nuts.

By mmm

April 18, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

Bridget, I think that you and Jeff are both right——there are some hurting folks that kindness can help and some that cannot be reached.

I do believe that the pendulum in this country has swung too far away from kindness and community, and what we reap is the attitude of many of our youth today who glorify thug “culture”.

We obviously did not stop this person—so the blame, what if, debate begins. Maybe we need to shift our theological focus from the question “why do people suffer” to an assumption that pain and suffering are normal to this world and the real theological question is what our response should be to it.

Many of the American Indian tribes take this stance, and the Amish belief that they should expect to suffer for their beliefs seemed to create an ability to absorb what could not be stopped and continue with forgiveness.

By jim d

April 18, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this

ABS,

Crazy? Nope don’t think so.

No amount of intervention will reach everyone that could benefit from it. Allowing someone to protect themselves in accordance with the second amendment might.

Had one of the first two victims been armed the possibility that more than 30 other people might be alive this morning might have been pretty good.

If you find that thought crazy, well then maybe I am.

By Rob Smith

April 18, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

Read about this unethical firm at this Webpage below that Atlanta Public Schools uses to dispose of surplus properties. They are a minority front organization for Trammell Crow and they are Red Rock Global Real Estate Services!

Link to site: http://redrockglobal.blogspot.com/ Click here….

By SET

April 18, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

ABS & Co:

Maybe CA is just ahead of this game. Remember, we are the state that had the Tarasoff murder case at University of CA Berkeley (in the 1970’s?). Look it up on the internet.

VA Tech happened because the school had no system in place to prevent the murders. Our schools - the public colleges anyway - have their own police forces. That means Guns, Handcuffs, Mace, Tasers and Search Warrants. They have access to state local and national databases from their cars now. They arrest people who act out, and verbal or non-verbal will do it quite nicely. §422 of the CA Penal Code (criminal threats) is a strike and a felony. DV related cases are the bread and butter of our $100k police officers.

We have local threat assessment teams that meet and review cases in a given town to determine a course of action against the stalker/nutcase where the suspect has not yet been arrested and the police want advice on how much action to take. Cases under consideration can be brought to the team by local police agencies - panel members include county mental health psychologists as well as Law Enforcement and non LE people including profilers. Our county as well as most medium sized counties have a full time domestic violence judge & courtroom who does only DV cases pre-trial. The VA Tech situation is a classic DV case with an almost unheard of ending.

It took a generation of killings here before we passed a lot of this legislation. I’ve been practicing law since before many of these laws were passed. This level of enforcement was unthinkable when I was in school.

It is so easy to decapitate problem children here that many people (including the people being protected) complain bitterly we’ve gone too far. They say they want to “drop the charges” and they are basically laughed at. Victims have no say as to what happens to the prisoner.

I am uncomfortable with what we’ve done in CA but I see no other way to housebreak aberrant males (the overwhelming majority of the cases) - most of which were not brought up very well. Like someone said, you can’t make them go to counseling - but we sure can jail them and put them on all kinds of computer lists for the rest of their lives. And we do. Don’t even think the cases are ethnically balanced either.

By this time next year VA will probably copy our legislation in this area. If this murderer had carried a DV restraining order he would not have been able to buy a gun lawfully in this state. And such people who attempt to do so are arrested here.

I can’t say anything about VA Tech’s facts. But here in CA our college campuses got burned years ago and have toughened up. The high schools tolerate things the colleges never do. When 18 year olds set foot on a Junior College campus and try any of the bullying or threatening behavior towards anyone they are shocked at what happens to them.

By SET

April 18, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

I back Jim D.

Gun Grabbers are immunodeficient. They think the government will save them. Let them hand in their weapons. I never will. I know how dangerous the American Cities are, and that they will soon be getting more so.

I never will and neither will my friends. We are not good victims.

By ABS

April 18, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

I work on a college campus….the thoughts of these kids being armed is a very frightening thought — I work with college age kids everyday….and believe me…you are completely delusional if you think we should allow college kids to carry guns for protection. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you think otherwise. All you gun-loving freaks out there…do yourself a favor…go hang out at a college campus for one hour and you will see exactly what I mean.

Jeff, no I don’t trust my government, federal or state….they are a bunch of unethical crooks! But that doesn’t mean I believe that I need a gun to protect myself. I happen to trust the military and policemen to do that — oh, but since the military is all in Iraq and not here protecting our borders and assisting in other domestic disasters I can’t say that now can I?

Of course, you have your 2nd amendment right to carry a gun and protect yourself…but all of you who were so quick to spout off statistics yesterday…just look at the crime statistics in other countries that have gun control laws….I think you get my point.

By jim d

April 18, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

Just me,

I’m not really nuts. You just constantly think I’m wrong and the truth of the matter is that it’s not so much that I’m “wrong” but simply that you disagree with me.

By ABS

April 18, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

SET…don’t give me that crap…our police force at my school here in GA are real policemen with real guns…whom I trust implicitly (sp?) to handle any emergency situation…they are top notch folks —and we are a private school…not public. They are trained an know how to handle guns….the kids that go to school here or anywhere else for that matter? OH MY GOD….that is insane.

By Jeff

April 18, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

ABS:

The military and police are the very ones that the Founding Fathers were so fearful of when they wrote the Second Ammendment. Do you honestly think they were afraid of King George or the members of Parlaiment personally (or even the local Governors for that matter)? NO! They were concerned about the military and police forces of the King.

As long as a single soldier has a gun, so will I. And since the military needs guns to do their job, I will always need one to protect myself from them. (Though granted they get the really cool ones that, as I noted yesterday, even I would say a civie has no need for.)

By jim d

April 18, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

SET,

I think we agree pretty much on this one. a couple of comments though.

You said ” he would not have been able to buy a gun lawfully in this state.”

1) crossing a state line isn’t a real issue. and

2) I’m quite sure someone intent on buying a weapon for use in committing a crime wouldn’t really have concerns over the unlawfull purchase of said weapon.

By JustMe

April 18, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

I thought that the gunman at VA Tech did buy the weapons legally in VA at a pawn shop?????

By Susan

April 18, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

I teach middle school students and have seen writing like what Cho wrote from several students over the years. I think the thing that stands out is not necessarily the violence but that he was 23 and not 13 and writing like that. The wording is really immature for a 23 year old and probably is one indicator of a young man who desperately needed help.

By jim d

April 18, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

ABS,

Unfortunately your point appears to be you are willing to give up the liberties of others to protect themselves.

My thoughts on that mirror those of SET. Feel free to surrender yours, but leave mine alone.

By JustMe

April 18, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

jim d-

If you honestly believe that the best thing is to give every student a gun, then I do think that you are wrong and I do think that you are nuts!

By jim d

April 18, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

Actually Jeff,

Wasn’t it orionally something like the 4th, being moved to 2nd prior to ratification?

By Jeff

April 18, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

ABS:

Also, while it may have just been the people I associated with, the people I knew at Kennesaw were decent enough that I would have no fear if they were armed. That goes for faculty, staff, AND students.

Besides, KSU CAN’T have a rule similar to VT’s for one simple reason: Kennesaw says that all its residents MUST own a firearm, therefore students in KSU’s dorms, if they are following the law, MUST own one. (Note that there is no penalty for breaking that particular law.)

By ABS

April 18, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

Jeff, One thing….this isn’t 1776 anymore…times have changed…but since you mentioned King George, well I won’t go there.

But no, I’m disgusted by my government, not threatened by them. Hitler and Mussolini rounded up liberals like me and had them executed….and yes, I would pick up a gun and use it to protect myself then in a situation like that…but I do have faith in our government that that will not happen…and until I have the “bad terrorists” kicking in my door…I will leave the protection of my community to the police and military.

By SET

April 18, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this

ABS - your remark is intemperate. It’s not clear what you are trying to say. Remember you are writing for public discourse not a high school civics class.

It seems that you are stating that you are at a private school. Issue number one. Having guns doesn’t cover the problem I’m describing. When things get to a shoot-out it’s great to have really good guns.

Dealing with a mentally ill and abberrant male usually occurs before the point of a shoot-out. Private security without full peace officer powers usually can’t move on problem children with the full force of the draconian laws and private forces often don’t have the full co-operation of the local criminal prosecutors and judges.

Can your security forces wake up a judge and get a search warrant at 4am? Our public college police services can and do. Do your security forces have the cell phone numbers of the local prosecutors? Ours do - and probably the judges’ cell numbers also.

Do your security people attend monthly threat assessment meetings with county mental health (who run the locked psych ward units)? Not a bad idea, college campuses here have a constant flow of mentally ill street people across their grounds (UC Berkeley for example).

As far as arming the student population - I said nothing directly about that. Most college students don’t have fully developed cerebral cortexes and are unstable. that’s why juvenile court used to go to age 21. You lost that when someone got the silly idea of lowering the age of majority to 18. Another discussion.

By Jeff

April 18, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this

jim:

Was it? I’ve never heard that, but that doesn’t make it false…

By jim d

April 18, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

just me

He did, but once again you miss the mark. It’s less than an hour drive to the nearest state line.

By SET

April 18, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

ABS - show me statistics from countries that have our population of blacks, hispanics, and all the other diverse ethnics.

Your argument is the same nonsense that was used in the 1960s to create the “Great Society”. Kennedy & Co told everyone that because Scandinavian women got free welfare we should give the same to our population. Now the black bastardy rate has gone from less than 20% to 78%?? and the results are in our prisons and our major cities are trashed (Detroit, Baltimore, Gary, and a lot more).

We are not Finland, We are not Europe. The USA does not behave like Asia either. And that includes southern whites and New England patricians. If you think life is so wonderful elsewhere go try it and don’t think you can replicate foreign behavior here.

By jim d

April 18, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

Trusting government?

If you truly want disarmament of the public raise your right hand. Now look in a mirror and say Heil.

Nazi Germany banned the ownership of guns for private citizens in 1938. I ask you. Where did that lead the entire world?

By SET

April 18, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this

Jim D: Right! and it wasn’t just the Nazis, do these college students ever study Stalin? Mao? Pol Pot? Idi Amin? Other than in Marxist admiration classes..

How about history in general?

An armed society is a polite society. I want more politeness.

By jim d

April 18, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

Dang it Jeff,

You made me have to look it up.

Yes it was in the fourth item as origionally introduced by Madison on 6/8/1789 that would eventually become known as the Bill of Rights, but they weren’t really numbered.(thank you wikipedia)

The origional text can be viewed at the link if you are so inclined.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llac&fileName=001/llac001.db&recNum=227

By mmm

April 18, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

Many of our bloggers seem much more comfortable discussing “solutions” to the mechanics but won’t discuss the original blog topic of solutions to the “intent”.

Could we get back to the original question?

I think that the general amount of kindness we show others DOES make a difference, for both others and ourself.

By jim d

April 18, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

Just me.

Once again I must ask. Am I “wrong” or is it that you simply disagree.

Why do you find it so difficult to just disagree without attacking someones credibility?

Who is in real need of help here?

By jim d

April 18, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

mmm,

In an ideal society that kindness and understanding would be enough. Unfortunately we don’t have that kind of world and won’t until the second comming. (if you believe)

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

Funny that the tide has turned back to gun control. I fear this is where it will stay for many months to come in light of the VTech massacre. Still, I must weigh in on the side of Jim and SET.

Like I said yesterday, I grew up around guns my whole life. Gun collecting was a hobby my grandfather enjoyed, my father gained, and I was subjected to from a young age. We rarely did anything but target shooting, and RESPECTED the weaponry for what it was - weaponry!

I don’t think every single student needs to be armed to the teeth in order to prevent something like this from happening. Heck, it wouldn’t have made a lick of difference in the Columbine killings, but this situation was a bit different. Here we are talking about kids who were LEGALLY old enough to OWN a gun. If one of them potentially had one, there is a possibility that the situation could have taken a different turn (note: I do not think it could have been prevented, as no one could possibly have expected what was about to happen).

That having been said, I’ve always been concerned about people arming themselves with little thought given to what they are actually doing. The two words that were imprinted into my mind at a young age were RESPECT and SAFETY. Whenever I hear a story about a kid finding his dad’s gun and blowing his brains out I cringe, because that means someone has failed those two lessons miserably.

Gun ownership should not be threatened by this terrible tragedy, but nor should it be expected to have prevented it. I guess that is really the bottom line. We can postulate different scenarios all day long, but that’s not going to bring back 32 people.

By One

April 18, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

Now the black bastardy rate has gone from And with that one statement SET you have discredited all of your previous statements!!! You have proven yourself to be a prejudiced, ignorant, ba$tard!!!

By jim d

April 18, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

V,

I find it rather interesting that the number that keeps comming up is 32. If we count the shooter wasn’t it 33 that lost their lives?

Do you think we’ve become so callous that we exclude him as a victim as well?

By jim d

April 18, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this

Dear one.

Go ahead and ask SET his race.

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

mmm - if you think kindness and understanding will heal all of the world’s problems, I’ve got a few unicorns I’d like to see you.

This kid exhibited warning signs that were becoming increasingly evident. As someone mentioned earlier, his writing was clearly disturbed for someone of his age and indicated some serious issues or mental instability. SET said it before - we might not like what we have to do in a situation like that, but we better start doing it. People are dying as a result of our indifference.

Also, I kept my mouth shut before, but I’ll say it now (I’m feeling a little riotous): we should take a good HARD look at these kids parents. In my opinion, I would just as soon execute Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s parents for the crimes of their children, just to ensure their DNA gets wiped off the face of the planet. When a kid does something like this, I think it represents a MASSIVE AND TOTAL failure on the part of the parent. We should not hold parents accountable for the silly things their kids do, but when a kid does something like this the parents MUST be scrutinized. If anyone has seen the videos of Klebold and Harris out in the woods shooting guns, making bombs, and generally acting like unsuprivised psychopaths, you know what I’m talking about.

You want to stop the virus of stupid? Like SET said, it wont be pleasant.

By SET

April 18, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

mmm: Do you have any experience in dealing with ‘roid rage, or meth users? Or aggressive mentally ill males?

I wonder how many of the people in authority who encountered the killer as he built up to these murders were women who were more concerned with “kindness” than “Protecting the Public”.

Protection is usually best done by males. Believe me, males understand evil men much better than women do. Try picking juries for 25 years.

Kindness has nothing to do with it. That murdered girl was probably a “kind” person. Too bad for her she wasn’t trained in dealing with a creature such is the man we speak of.

I am upset about VA Tech. All these people died because there was no system in place to detect and deal with a dangerous mentally ill person such as the murderer.

And it’s just history repeating itself for me. I’ve been through this more than once before. In California.

The Oakland Superintendent of Schools - Marcus Foster - who was murdered by the SLA, was a friend of my family members. Other close family were part of the investigation of the murder. We (family members) had actually met those vicious creatures in the Berkeley area before the Hearst kidnap and their ultimate killings by the LA Police in the LA shootout (which I watched live on TV).

It’s been decades now of school related killings here in CA. I have very strong feelings for this subject.

Kindness has nothing to do with this. This is a form of Evil and it can only be stopped by force which requires a good system of detecting the presence of such maniacs and the willingness of the government to take them on. Thus our complicated and severe net of legislation from Domestic Violence laws to 3 Strike and 1 Strike laws.

And CA has created the biggest prison-industrial complex in the world in so doing.

Brave New World.

By ABS

April 18, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

What difference does it make if there are different and diverse populations in a country when comparing crime statistics? I really hope, SET, that you are not trying to bring the race card into this discussion…because we all know how ugly that can be. Isn’t it just the fact that they are human beings enough — and don’t shoot each other as much as we do enough for your statistics? But I do understand where you are coming from…I don’t have time right now to look up all these statistics — but I will.

And, no, I don’t want to go live somewhere else…that comment shows your inability to communicate or cooperate with people who disagree with you. The whole “Delta is ready when you are” idea that people like you always through out is completely ridiculous…I happen to love where I live.

Why do you people say that? I don’t understand…it shows that you think of yourself as some God head and that your way is the only way…and since people don’t agree with your way of thinking…then we must hate where we live and must therefore leave.

By mmm

April 18, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this

V—-I think you have just agree with me that gun control/no gun control is not really either the cause or going to prevent what happened.

My question again is—- Could we work on finding AGREEMENT on what might change the growing numbers of young men with the intent to kill and commit suicide?

In that sense this young man is no different than a multitude of others. Or do all of you agree with Jim d of the 1:39 post?

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

jim - I said bring 32 people back. Do we really want him back? I’d like to think, no.

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

ABS - most “God heads” as you say (or Megalomaniacs) are usually the people who most fervently proclaim his existence. Their way is the ONLY way. Agree or you will go to hell. You know, that sort of thing. :-)

By jim d

April 18, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this

V,

It would appear there are more than a few bleeding hearts here that would have him back just so they’d have an opportunity to “heal” him.

The truth is (and I really hate to go here) he is a victim. A victim of society that has de-valued human life.

Got an X-Box?

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this

mmm - I actually do agree with you that gun control is not the issue at hand, and I DO have a solution for the “young men with the intent to kill and commit suicide?”

Lock them up. Life is a beautiful thing, and if you wish to take yours then you have missed the point of living. Good riddance, don’t make a mess on the way out.

By SET

April 18, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

ABS: Glad for the dialog. My comment is due to the fact that you cannot change a large complex system such as the USA into what it is not. If you want/expect different you need to go elsewhere. Ethnically homogenous populations are more stable and predictable. Not always “better”, just more stable & predictable.

And in case you haven’t had the class yet, behavior is different for the ethnics for biological reasons. It’s sometimes referred to as biodiversity.

Applying biodiversity to education is useful when people rant they are unhappy because other people are not behaving as they wish them to. People rant a lot about this - especially educators and politicians. No Child Left Behind ignores Biodiversity which is why NCLB is a Trojan Horse. Our ruling class is extremely aware of biodiversity and knew all along what would happen.

Later.

By mmm

April 18, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this

Set and V—-I l like your responses because you each articulated new ideas that seem to me to have merit. Focusing on something other than just gun control (Parent responsibility and the responsibility of those in authority to protect other are both things that we seem to have let slide.)

Any other ideas?

p.s. I never said kindness and understanding would stop or prevent this—just that it appears to have help ed the Amish to absorb it. No SET, I haven’t had your expierences and I want you to know that there are probably many situations that I would hope to have your expertise in.

By ABS

April 18, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

V, I must agree with you…I’m a liberal, but not a bleeding heart liberal. I truly believe there are just some people who are beyond help. Lock their asses up for the sake of us all!

I have worked with the mentally ill and with folks on welfare before…and the sad thing is…sometimes you have to be mean…I know there is trash in all cultures. The one thing I hate to see in situations like this is people blaming others when the one person to blame is dead…and good riddance…it’s just very unfortunate that (I think someone said this earlier) he didn’t put himself 1st on the list…

And V, one more thing…I didn’t want to bring religion into it (although I wanted to)…but I like that word “meglomaniacs.” But your right on about that too! I always tell people when they tell me I’m going to hell is that I can’t go somewhere that I don’t believe in :-)!

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this

Jim - Uh oh, we might disagree again …

I actually DO have an Xbox, a PS2, and many computer games. I had them growing up all my life. You know Grand Theft Auto - the game where you carjack people and kill them - that was always one of my favorites.

Funny thing, I didn’t kill anyone, I’m not insane, and I understand the value of human life and the difference between right and wrong. Hmmm, maybe my parents had something to do with that and I was able to see video games and TV for what it is - entertainment and nothing more. Just a thought.

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

With that, I’m out. Have a great day everyone and I hope the future is better than yesterday was. Positive thoughts to all …

By ABS

April 18, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

SET - Biodiversity is much more complex than that, but you are right about NCLB. “If I haven’t had the class yet” ha ha…that’s a good one!

By jim d

April 18, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

ABS,

Since you did mention it let me just say that the religious values subscribed to by the vast majority in this country do come into play. As do the moaral values most of us subscribe to. As I posted at 1:39 though I just don’t see an end to violent human behavior happening without devine intervetion.

We are what we are and if you believe as I do. What we are is a violent breed. As can been evidenced by the earliest recorded writing of man.

By Jeff

April 18, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this

I see the thought police are already chomping at the bit…

Univ of Colorado student was arrested today for comments sympathetic to the VT shooter…. story at the top of AJC front page….

By jim d

April 18, 2007 4:41 PM | Link to this

Ok Jeff,

Glad to see they are now focusing on the first amendment rather than just kicking butt on the 2nd.

By ABS

April 18, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

Okay, I just read that story that guy is an idiot…what do you expect…

I still haven’t looked up those statistics yet

By ABS

April 18, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

Isn’t that funny that a liberal like me thinks the guy deserves to be arrested? Who was it yesterday that said something about not being to fix stupidity? I think it was V or somebody…but yes, that guy is stupid and needs to go to jail and realize how stupid he is.

No common sense…whatsoever…

By Jeff

April 18, 2007 4:54 PM | Link to this

ABS:

I would say that a liberal saying this guy needed to be arrested would be typical.

You see, I say he has a 1st ammedment right to say whatever he wants to say. He is not a criminal until a) he explicitly threatens someone or b) he physically attacks someone.

By jim d

April 18, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this

ABS,

Granted he may be stupid, but as memory serves stupid isn’t against the law.

By high school teacher

April 18, 2007 5:43 PM | Link to this

Is it possible that the best defense against such tragedies simply doing more to create a true school community where people reach out to each other and express concerns before it’s too late?

Part of becoming a true school community is recognizing dangers to the school community and then getting rid of said danger. A high school student who endangers the school (by way of getting into many fights, for example) is sent to alternative school. A student who poses a threat to his peers on the bus is not allowed to ride the bus. Correct me if I’m wrong; I’ve heard so much on this story that I don’t know what’s true and what’s not. But wasn’t this kid here on a student visa? If he was such a problem in a college classrom that a professor wanted him removed from her class, and his parents wanted him placed in a mental institution, why was he allowed to continue at the university? Why was he not sent home? And why are students here on a visa allowed to buy glocks?

If my “facts” on the story are not the case, then I sincerely apologize for my ignorant comments.

By high school teacher

April 18, 2007 5:49 PM | Link to this

Okay, sorry, according to ajc he has been here since he was a child. One of the morning news stations said he was here on a visa - my mistake.

By KA

April 19, 2007 8:14 AM | Link to this

After listening to the shooter’s ranting and writings, it appears that the university should have listened to his English Prof, who wanted him out of her class, and who tried to raise the red flags. IMO, his parents should have been contacted at the time the prof felt disturbed about his writings. Intuition and gut feelings are often good signs to listen to and act on.

By Jeff

April 19, 2007 8:18 AM | Link to this

KA:

Would you contact the parents of a 45 yo college student (remember, I come from a school that is KNOWN for having a large “older” - aka “non-traditional” - student body)?

This guy was an ADULT. IF you are concerned, take it to the COPS, not the parents.

Granted, had this happened 6 yrs earlier in this guy’s life (back when he was 17 and in HS), I would say take it to the parents. But he was 23!

By KA

April 19, 2007 8:25 AM | Link to this

hsteacher, according to the news I heard, he was a permanent legal resident, and therefore able to legally purchase the guns. I also heard that people knew he had a lot of ammunition. As he lived on campus, and guns are not allowed on campus, I am wondering why someone didn’t report his gun possession to campus authorities.

Jeff, after reading your responses, I see that you are holding to the free speech line, which goes along with your acknowledged all or nothing response to situations. There are shades of gray, and speech that raises hairs and feels threatening should be investigated, especially considering the totality of this student’s demeanor, his reclusiveness, and his professor’s alarm.

By KA

April 19, 2007 8:36 AM | Link to this

Jeff, Chronologically he was an adult, but he was a traditionally aged college student, most of whom are still in close contact with their parents, and often still economic dependents. If any my twenty-something kids were thought to be having mental or emotional problems at school, and a prof felt disturbed about it, then I as a parent would want to know so that I could get my child some help. There are plenty of times when families must intervene with adult family members for drug, alcohol or mental or emotional problems. It doesn’t matter how old or ‘adult’ he was. Apparently his English prof was disturbed enough that she didn’t want to be left alone with him. Too bad nobody would act on her warnings.

By Jeff

April 19, 2007 8:44 AM | Link to this

KA:

I hold that what a student THINKS, WRITES, and SPEAKS is protected by the First Ammendment. Said student (or anyone else for that matter) does not become a criminal until he EXPLICITLY threatens someone or acts on his comments. This guy at VT was NOT a criminal until the bullet hit the first victim, nor were Kleibold and Harris (well, they were a different case, as they had built the bombs previously and were criminals at that point - but guilty of nothing more than building an explosive device.)

KA, your “shades of gray” lines of thinking are EXACTLY what leads to Big Brother and “Morale Police”. I say that given the choice between a free society where this can happen or a police state where it can’t, give me the deaths! No matter what. I don’t care about the death count if the other option is thought police and people being investigated for their comments.

As one of the Founding Fathers (Franklin, I think) said:

“Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither.”

By Jeff

April 19, 2007 8:46 AM | Link to this

KA:

So at what point do you cut the strings? If we say that at 18 you are legally an adult - as we currently do - then at 18 you are an adult, no matter how much your parents may help you. As of your 18th birthday, if you don’t want your parents to know something, they have no legal right to know it, and NO ONE - ESPECIALLY not the government - has the right to tell them.

By KA

April 19, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

Jeff, You want to frame all of this in a legal right, government intervention framework. I am framing it as a personal and common sense interaction. A college campus is a community, almost surrogate family or clan, a place where parents send their kids trusting that they are in a relatively ‘safe’ environment, with the understanding that their young adults are also assuming responsibility for their own safety, too. Family members care for one another. Witness the coming together of the VT community, on campus and across the country. The shooter was a member of the VT family who went crazy, and the signs of his derangement were there, and yet no family member was able to help him. That is the real issue, how to identify and help those who need help before they totally fall apart.

No man is an island, and no matter how old or what setting we live and work in that setting is a community of interacting people. Years ago I worked with a 32 year old man who started talking and acting in bizarre ways at work and calling me at night at home. Although nothing he said threatened me, I knew something was very wrong. I talked to my supervisor, and I called his wife to discuss it. As it turned out he was undiagnosed bipolar and was having wild delusions, and his family had to intervene legally to have him put in a hospital and treated. My testimony at his hearing helped to put him in the hospital. You would say that he was an adult and whatever he said to me was none of my business. You are wrong. We are all connected in this human condition. He got help, got the medication he needed and is OK now.

It’s not a moral police or big brother issue, it’s the person to person, family and community interactions that I am talking about.

By KA

April 19, 2007 9:07 AM | Link to this

Jeff, in your legally controlled free range adult rights view, what would you propose should be done to avoid tragedies such as these?

By Jeff

April 19, 2007 9:21 AM | Link to this

Personal vigilance. True Second Ammendment rights (as were just scrapped by the GA Legislature) of being allowed to carry your firearm anywhere. It was said on some other post I read, but a general “combat alertness” by the American public would help. Why do you think you don’t see this in Israel? EVERY SINGLE ADULT there has served time in their army…

By JustMe

April 19, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Even though every adult in Israel has served time in the military, I know that every adult does not own a gun. Something to think about….

By high school teacher

April 19, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this

True second amendment rights do not prevent this situation from occurring. Granted, the death toll might have been reduced if someone had killed the gunman early, but the act still would have occurred regardless if all the college students were carrying a gun (which scares me to think about, BTW).

To answer your question, KA, unfortunately, I don’t think anything can be done to aviod people going crazy. We can be more vigilant and attempt to identify those who are threats to others, but what does that really do? Let’s say that VT did kick the boy out of school and obtain medical help for him. He did spend time in a mental institute, but he was released. Nothing would have stopped him from going on campus to those same locations. His being a student didn’t allow him easier access to the locations. Most college buildings have free access (no key card or code required for entry). Hang around any college campus for a few hours, and see how many people can get into a dorm without having the little security card/code/key to open the door. Most kids in a dorm will open the door for someone to come in.

I’m not trying to scare parents or anything! I’m just trying to point out that even if VT had expelled this kid from school, he still could have committed this act.

By SET

April 19, 2007 10:05 AM | Link to this

More info is coming in about the murderer. I’m not surprised at this situation.

It appears that the school administration in it’s various social services components were given responsibility for managing the madman.

That’s Mistake Number One. Around here all threats or issues of public safety are reported by instructors and staff to campus Police Services first and to Student Life second. Only Police Services have access to rap sheets and Law Enforcement intelligence data and can’t share that info with Student Life. that’s why Police Services take the lead on all security questions. This cardinal rule was apparently not followed in VA Tech.

To the extent that Campus Police were told anything at all about the killer they failed to avoid the murders. I have no doubt that here there would be firings - probably before the Civil Grand Jury got through interrogating everyone, which would happen pretty quickly.

When you evaluate a College’s commitment to public safety, ignore any pious mission statements and look for the formal flow of information and look to the power given police services.

Here, there is direct reporting from instructors and staff to Police. those reports are not shown to or reviewed by administration who get their on info from staff and general reports from Police. Campus Police participate in Treat Assessment teams with regional law Enforcement and Mental Health to the exclusion of Student Life staff. This is required because controlled information is handled at threat assessment (like the rap sheets and possibly informant info). CA Jr Colleges at least have numerous parolees and probationers on campus as well as registered sex offenders. Some of them are impulsive and have issues with women.

When someone is becoming an increasing nuisance, the case is staffed. A co-ordinated response can be determined among the various agencies participating. But Police Service will arrest and exclude from campus on their own authority when lines are crossed that were clearly crossed with this man. While there is still the possibility he (and it’s almost always a “he”) may still return to campus and attack his love/hate objects - it seems to break up the focus of a lot of these people that they are suddenly having to physically deal with the Police, County Mental Health, School Administration, the Media (they pick up data daily on arrests), and Superior Court on restraining orders and criminal cases. So their focus tends to move away from the original victim who has little or no input to what is being done. DMV can be notified to suspend driver’s licenses on their own authority if there is reason to believe the subject is unsafe to be driving due to any psych or drug issues. They can pull the license in hours - just fax them the police reports. In CA that is a really big deal.

Not only can the student’s home be tossed for weapons, bullets, receipts, etc. with a search warrant if there is an indication of threat, but they are busted for their narcotics found in the process - and they most often are using something.

I’m not clear on everything that is known about this killer. I hope that states not yet having been burned, will pay attention to how college safety threats are managed elsewhere and remove all social workers from the first line of defense. Social workers by definition cannot be expected to work public safety. It’s not fair to the social worker - I’m sure that the ones involved in managing Cho feel responsibility for what has happened. That’s wrong. They were never trained or provisioned for such responsibility. Only an adminisistration who devalued public safety would have arranged things so.

By OldSchool

April 19, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this

The only way I had of seeing my daughters’ grades when they were in college was due to their trusting me with that information. At 18 it became their business and not mine, despite the fact that I was footing the bill. That’s just the way it is. The colleges they attended contacted them and not me.

As for someone reporting any weapons or ammo another student might have…do you really think that colleges are the “close-knit communities” everyone is saying they are? Granted there are close-knit groups but I dare say that even in a small college, there is no way to know everyone in a “close-knit” way. Only when there is a common purpose does the larger community gather enmasse.

Students just don’t tell everything they know about each other. It is even possible to walk past the same people everyday and not notice them simply because you walk past them everyday.

Hindsight and talking amongst ourselves gives us the chance to connect the dots and discover the coincidences…and then blame others for not doing the same earlier.

Doubtless sweeping changes will be made at schools across this nation. And still it will not be enough.

By EducatorX3

April 19, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

Just so you know, college students who are over the age of 18 are considered adults and are protected under FERPA (Family Education Right to Privacy Act) laws. Believe it or not, agree with it or not, college professors are bound by the law.

That is not to say that there are some who would take the risk and make the call. However, for most of my students I only have their personal contact information. I don’t have their parent’s phone numbers, addresses, or names. I am on a much smaller campus and, if needed, could find all the information. There are many options for requesting/recommending help for a student, however, I can only speak for my campus.

By KA

April 19, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

hs teacher, I know we can’t prevent people from going crazy, but I do think we can and should heed any warning signs and at least try to intervene, and make people in the community (especially in a campus community) aware before disaster strikes.

By KA

April 19, 2007 10:16 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I am all for concealed carry permits. But my carrying a gun would not help the mentally deranged person BEFORE he goes nuts. I think something could have and should have been done beforehand to identify, remove, and treat this kid.

By EducatorX3

April 19, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

Can you tell it is the end of the semester and I am blind from grading….

That should say..”That is not to say that there are NOT some who would take the risk”…

Apologies!

By JustMe

April 19, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

No one can prevent random acts of violence.

IMHO, we can reduce the severity of violance by enacting some gun control laws.

By KA

April 19, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

JustMe, there is a law prohibiting firearms on the VT campus. That is gun control gone wrong.

By Jeff

April 19, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this

JustMe:

We have laws prohibiting civilians from owning military-caliber weapons. That is all the gun control laws we need.

By JustMe

April 19, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

KA -

I disagree. What you describe is limited gun control. Widespread gun control would work.

It is like a single County being “dry” (no alcohol sales allowed). It is useless because people would simply drive to a neighboring County to buy it.

If the entire Country would have gun control - completely emliminating the making of and the possession of any fire arms what-so-ever, it would work. Yes, there may be a few smuggled into the Country, but I would bet that the student at VA Tech could not have gotten his hands on those.

By JustMe

April 19, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Jeff - I simply disagree with your position.

If you really feel that you position is correct, do you also support making drugs legal? Maybe you are a hypocrite that likes one and not the other?

By KA

April 19, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

JustMe, what you are advocating is not gun control, but gun prohibition. If you disarm all of the law abiding citizens, the criminals and crazies will still find a way to be armed. If you disarm the population, then hunting goes away,too. It’s not going to happen.

Here the shooter gave many signs that he was disturbed, but nothing was done. Maybe he could have been stopped if someone could have removed him from school, assessed his mental state, and gotten him some help.

By JustMe

April 19, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

KA -

I grew up in a rural town in the South. I know about hunting. I have a brother-in-law that hunts. There are just not that many legitimate game hunters remaining for us to allow any types of guns.

And, if guns were prohibited, the only way that criminals and crazies could find a gun would be if that gun was smuggled into the US - which would be very difficult to do (much more so that drugs).

With tazzers and other options, even the police do not really need guns. So, why have them at all? What possible valid reason could there be? If anyone thinks that a gun in their house could protect from terrorist or another Country invading the US, they are kidding themselves. Those folks will now use nuclear weapons. Your pea-shooter is useless against a nuclear bomb.

A civilized society with so many technology options simply does not need guns.

By SET

April 19, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

I agree with KA - especially on the issue that colleges have to detect and remove mentally ill/deranged/addicted/’roid rage etc.. students.

And it’s imperative that the first line of defense not be social workers, student life or anybody else before Campus Police Services. Threat Assessment must be controlled by Police due to their access to controlled information, their continuing education and training, membership in intelligence and profiling groups, and ability to take direct action 24/7 including arrests and searches.

Any college that still uses civillian staff as the first line of decision making in these cases just doesn’t get it - and devalues the safety of their staff and students.

CA learned this the hard way after the last 30 years of campus murders. And I might add that the same model is being applied to large urban public high schools. Their problems now (besides the ethnic cleansing by bullets going on in Los Angeles) is armed outsiders coming onto campus to assault students and staff. (And some of them may be parents?)

And much of the trouble starts with domestic violence, stalking, narcotics and sexual issues - not subjects to allow social workers and civillians to be making decisions in.

By jim d

April 19, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

Heil just me!!

Your thinking on gun control scares me worse than any crazies that may own one.

Read your history books.

By Jeff

April 19, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this

jim:

AMEN!!

By Hick from the sticks

April 19, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

Sorry I’m late.

The Tazer is set to hit one person only.

Against five or more folks, it’s going to be useless.

OC spray?

Better. Run the risk of everyone around being affected.

For those in favor on non-lethal projectiles in order to bring down an assailant so our good society can “alter” heh. his/her way of thinking, the book Stiff is a real eye-opener.

I was the loner. I was the oddity. (Still am, according to most people.) I love my video games, my old punk rock, and my new(ish) metal music. Conversely, I’m also a huge Johnny Cash fan.

Neither metal, punk, video games, my wearing black, nor The Man in Black, has persuaded me to take an innocent life.

With refernce to the Columbine shootings, one media “expert” asked Marilyn Manson what he would say to the assailants if he had a chance.

He simply responded that he wouldn’t say anything, rather he would have listened.

I’m not a huge Manson fan. I think he’s silly, and it’s all been done before (right, Alice Cooper?), but he made a semi-valid point.

Concidentally, (for the poster who was instructing his daughter to be ever-vigilant of those “weird types”) I am a teacher. Have been for almost ten years now.

I am one of those weirdos you so eloquently spoke of.

God forbid your daughter be exposed to something different, right?

By jim d

April 19, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

ya know, whe have been through this debate on gun control so maany times you’d think everyone would begin to “get it”. The only thing that keeps governement from stripping the American public of All Rights is that pesky thing called the Second Amendment, without it no other has any meaning and would be uninforcable. Why is that so difficult to grasp?

By jim d

April 19, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

Hick,

CAUTION!

Seems the cops can now bust you for your thoughts. Agreeing that Manson may have made a valid point might land you behind bars.

By Hick from the sticks

April 19, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

Jim d,

I’ll keep that in mind. I’ll inform Big Brother when he comes to snag me for my diary that I was jus’ foolin’.

By V for Vendetta

April 19, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

Good points SET, once I heard about how fervently his teacher wanted him out of her sight, I became a little disappointed with all of the red tape involved. Note, I am not blaming anyone, I don’t think that’s fair and productive at this point, but the fact remains that a COLLEGE PROFESSOR did not want this kid anywhere near her.

I’m not sure if some people are really understanding just how damning that evidence is on its own. I’m thinking of all of my profs in college, and I can’t imagine what it would take for them to demand a student be removed from class (using their job as leverage no less!).

I completely agree we Hick from the Sticks about being tolerant of those differnt than us, but this kid was going WAY beyond that. How this wasn’t obvious to anyone is starting to worry me a little bit. I hope I am not that clueless towards the people around me. I hope.

By ABS

April 19, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

SET - I actually agree with you today. I’ve said this before…you don’t want me to carry a gun…that would be really dangerous. I’m completely spastic and would shoot someone. I definitely want the protection of my campus left to the professionals.

By SET

April 19, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

I’m hearing that the school security services have been having meetings and are now getting reports of psych involved and/or threatening persons on campus that staff had “forgotten” to report earlier. I have a feeling that the bar is about to be lowered around here on violent and threatening behavior.

Police Services thought they were being kept up and now maybe they weren’t as current as they thought on the local maniacs on campus. It’s going to be an interesting month.

Our state just recently added legislation forcing registered sex offenders to register with compus police before taking any college classes. Our local parole dept had been requiring it’s parolees to make themselves known to campus police prior to enrolling, but I don’t think that is a state law.

Some of these few people are extremely dangerous because they have impaired volitional control due to psych issues. CA is now requiring the use of actuarial scoring for risk assessment of sex offenders, so we have a scale for people to be officially off of.

I have worked with people out of custody with Hare PCLR scores as high as 33 and Static 99 scores as high as 10 (parolees, they don’t last long). A relatively small number of them have prior crimes involving mutilation of victims and/or attacks on strangers and children (bad predictor of future violence). We have an outpatient sex offender treatment program 1 block from the local Jr. College.

All of a sudden people are very busy trying to catalog the local problem children on campus. Administration wants to know just what they have to worry about in the wake of VA Tech.

We do know that Meth is a hell of a drug.

Large schools need to have a threat assessment team established, with provisions for continuing education & training.

Nothing like hindsight!

By JustMe

April 19, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

jim d-

Gee. If only everyone was as smart as you…..

By JustMe

April 19, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this

jim d -

And thought like you did, and believed everything you believe, and like the same things you like, and on and on.

By ABS

April 19, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

I was sitting downstairs with our Police Captain Monday while all these events were unfolding watching TV. He told me that he meets with the Director of the Counseling Center on a regular basis so he and the department can be aware of any psychotic kids we have here on campus.

We are lucky…like I said yesterday, we have real policemen here (with real guns) who train all the time. But that is not true on many college campuses that are comparable in size to where I work — but I think that will change really quick.

By KA

April 19, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this

SET, Thanks, and I agree about the need for a threat assessment team. Hindsight is what drives lawmaking, policy making and even formation of threat assessment teams. You don’t need a rule until there’s a recurring problem or a huge tragedy like this one.

By KA

April 19, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

ABS, Where do you work?

By jim d

April 19, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

Just me,

Not as smart as I am / just smarter than you.

By Jeff

April 19, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

Y’all know what is sad?

As GLAD as some of y’all were when I left teaching….

I am STILL being HEAVILY recruited…

:P

By KA

April 19, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this

jim and Just Me, I know you both can agree to disagree and just bury the hatchet, OK? And not in each other’s head!

By jim d

April 19, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

Ahh, but jeff. Some of us realized you might be happier doing something else. And you appear to be.

By Lee

April 20, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this

Just some observations about the VT shooting….

• The more snippets of information we garner, the more the administration of VT appears negligent in the handling of this student.

• A professor took the extraordinary measure to “either remove this student from her class or she was going to resign.”

• The professor’s supervisor, who starting tutoring CHO after he was removed from the class, felt so nervous about him that she and her secretary came up with a “code word” to be used to initiate a call to 911.

• Female students in CHO’s class refused to attend because he was taking pictures of their legs under the desk with his cellphone camera.

• On two separate occasions, he was accused of stalking female students.

• He was recommended for psychiatric evaluation by the school and was recommended for treatment.

Ok. Stop right there. This is not a matter of “connecting the dots”, but rather, connecting the exclamation points. Several of the above actions are violations of the school’s Code of Conduct and should have gotten him in front of a Judicial Panel. It does not appear that this was done.

• There is a term that I have coined called Politically Correct Institutional Paralysis. That is, businesses and institutions are so afraid of being called racist that they refuse to act when a member of a minority class does something wrong. I see it time after time after time when managers and supervisors do not conduct effective performance management with their minority subordinates, but rather, shift the work to other employees who they know can “get the job done.” Most likely, VT was afraid of getting sued if they kicked a mentally ill student out of school. Guess, what VT, you’re gonna get sued now, big time.

In addition to the victims and their families, there is another group that should be absolutely livid right now. That group is the roommates and the roommates families of CHO. The university placed a known mentally ill student in a residential proximity to other students. That is unconscionable.

One last thing, in other shootings, many of the acquaintances of the shooter(s) would express surprise that the person would do such a deed. In this case, there have been numerous quotes from people who stated that when they heard the murderer was an asian male, the first person they thought of was CHO.

By KA

April 20, 2007 8:44 AM | Link to this

Lee, Well said, and exactly what I was addressing yesterday, as all of the warning signs where there and no action was taken to remove him and get him help, and probably avoid the tragedy.

By parentof2

April 20, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this

The AJC should publish Lee’s (8:33) post on the editorial page. Its a perfect analysis. As a parent with a son in college, I agree with every word.

By Jeff

April 20, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

Lee:

I hold my position that Cho was NOT a criminal (as far as the shooting is concerned) until the bullet hit the first victim.

Should he have been removed after the “camera phone” incidents? IF CONVICTED BY A JURY ONLY!

Let’s face it, MOST males fit the so-called “profile”: Loners, male, few friends, a desire for revenge. That most of us learn to control it only shows that the profile is useless. Would you lockup - or worse, destroy the civil liberties of - EVERY SINGLE PERSON that fits this so-called “profile”? From working as a teacher, I can tell you that you would wind up locking up half the population of most high schools. Just because someone is DIFFERENT does NOT mean they are DANGEROUS.

By Lee

April 20, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this

Correction Jeff, according to Virginia law, CHO was in violation of the law the second he brought the guns onto campus. But that’s irrelevant right now.

VT, like other colleges, has an established Code of Conduct that each student agrees to abide by. Failure to abide by the university’s Code of Conduct can subject the student to sanctions by the university up to and including permanent dismissal of the student.

As I stated in my earlier post, several of the actions by CHO should have gotten him in front of a Judicial Panel. It does not appear that this was done and the university’s lack of action appears to be negligent to me.

And yes, when a student pays the money and agrees to abide by the school’s terms and conditions, the school has a responsibility to provide a safe environment, which to me would include not placing a known mentally ill student in a dorm room with other students.

By KA

April 20, 2007 9:28 AM | Link to this

Jeff, Give it a rest, or someone is going to refer YOU to counselling! We are not recommending criminalizing mentally ill people, but identifying those who are a danger to themselves or others and removing them from public interaction to a place where they can get help. There is a legal process already in place in every state to address these situtions. Please try to listen to what WE are saying, not what YOU want to keep repeating about rights.

By parentof2

April 20, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

I’ve not read all the thread above, so I apologize if this has already been noted. Everyone should read “The Gift of Fear” by Gavin DeBecker. Its been in print a while now, so you might have to search for it. Its a great analysis of how we know instinctively when we are in danger and then are trained by society to ignore that instinct.

Its also a terrific primer on how to listen to our instincts and be safe out in the world. DeBecker has a website (he owns a security company in CA, I believe). He gives tips on everything from how not be picked up by a pervert to what to do if you have a flat tire in a scary place. Every teenager and college student should have a copy of this book. Adults too.

There is a chapter or two on crazies and stalkers and how after they snap and murder people, investigations reveal that there were warning signs and so forth for years in advance.

This Va Tech incident is right out of the book… .very sad that it was so predicatable to experts but such a surprise to everyone else.

And you are right Jeff, he was not a criminal before the killings, but he was clearly a psychopath. And the public has a right to be protected from both.

By KA

April 20, 2007 10:02 AM | Link to this

Jeff, and another thing, our rights and freedoms are not unlimited. There are a multitiude of federal, state, and local laws, and private businesses have their own policies that define the limits of our rights and freedoms as to time place and manner. Your rights and freedoms only extend to the point where they infringe, intrude, deny or deprive another of his rights or freedoms.

By Lee

April 20, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this

Jeff, right out of the VT Code of Conduct:

• Section II - Student Code of Conduct

• Abusive Conduct Any words or acts that cause physical injury, or threaten any individual, or interfere with any individual’s rightful actions, including but not limited to the following: c. Sexual Harassment - Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal, non-verbal, or physical conduct of a sexual nature, under certain circumstances. e. Stalking - Repeatedly contacting another person when the contact is unwanted. Additionally the conduct may cause the other person reasonable apprehension of imminent physical harm or cause substantial impairment of the other person’s ability to perform the activities of daily life. Contact includes but is not limited to communicating with (either in person, by phone or computer) or remaining in the physical presence of the other person.

• Section V.E. - Class Attendance and Classroom Conduct ….The professor has the authority to determine acceptable classroom conduct for his or her students as long as those decisions do not infringe on the students’ rights. Disruptive classroom conduct may be considered disorderly conduct.

• Section V.N. - Sexual Harassment Administrators or supervisors have a legal obligation to act whenever they learn, either directly or indirectly, about sexual harassment. This obligation exists even if the victim requests that no action be taken. It is not the responsibility of the individual being harassed to correct the situation.

Even in the Code, it refers to the University’s “duty to act.”

I don’t know how much more damning it could be…

By SET

April 20, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this

Lee’s post is one of the best I’ve seen so far summarizing how Political Correctness kills.

It is immunosuppressant.

And this (VA tech) will happen more and more until people - especially whites - regain their former sense of reality and self interest.

The Duke University Non-Rape is horrific also and it occurred for exactly the same reasons.

Nowadays, the common denominator I see in these outrages is that they occur in “Universities” where freedom of speech has long since been suppressed, and force is used against anyone who calls a spade a spade. Physical Safety among every other individual right mean nothing to these systems. Truth means nothing and merit means nothing. These values are not even honored in the breech.

Reread Lee’s post. NOTHING would have made that University system move against Cho. If he had just gone and killed himself they might have created a scholarship in his honor. I could discuss Affirmative Action and the philosophy underlying it - but I really don’t have to now. Keeping mentally ill people resident in a University is just another form of AA. (Do they think they are a state hospital?)

The same process we have seen at VA Tech is going on at all the Urban High Schools. Good people don’t want to work there or study there. Mr. Liberty is just the vanguard of thought about how to proceed - stay away…

White liberals and their allies as usual are using VA Tech to further tighen their grip - openly advocating “more” gun contol (against normal people) while not allowing psycho control.

All this from a country that a recently as the 1950’s would have forcibly sterilized someone like Cho after locking him into a State Hospital.

All we can do is read and research what we can, and take care of ourselves and our families. This sort of thing is why all democracies eventually end in a popularly elected dictatorship. An “anything goes” government cannot maintain order and debases the currency.

Brave New World.

By JustMe

April 20, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

SET,

You scare me.

You want so much to blame things on Liberals. First, there is nothing to show that VA Tech administration were Liberals at all.

Second, VA Tech, as with anyone in charge of anything, has to consider legal ramifications. If VA Tech did kick out Cho, they likely would have left themselves open for lawsuits. After all, the professional psychologists had cleared Cho to be released into society.

If anything, your anger should be place on those professional psychologists and/or councilors that claimed that Cho was okay to be released into society.

Please stop your campaign to blame anything and everything on Liberals. You are very transparant and only discredit yourself.

Remember, Georgia Washington was a Liberal (rebelling against the conservative English government).

By jim d

April 20, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

Ok, just me, in defense of SET,

I failed to see where set made reference that VA Tech administration were Liberals.

what he said and I agree with was.

“White liberals and their allies as usual are using VA Tech to further tighen their grip - openly advocating “more” gun contol

By JustMe

April 20, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

jim d-

Once again, your complete inability of reading comprehension rears its ugly head.

Re-read SETs post. He begins by speaking ill of political correctness (evidently a liberal thing) and connects this with VA Tech. He then speaks of “Universities” that supposedly suppress free speach when they are supposedly stopping conservatives from “calling a spade a spade” (funny, but I thought that restrictions were a conservative thing). He then compares the University to Affirmative Action (a liberal cause).

You really should take a reading comprehension course….. especially if you are trying to respond to blogs.

By Jeff

April 20, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

JustMe:

Campus speech codes are a decidedly liberal cause. As are “hate” crimes.

By jim d

April 20, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

Lee,

“He was recommended for psychiatric evaluation by the school and was recommended for treatment.”

But unless I’m mistaken the doctors had also released him back to attending classes. Personally I believe we may be placing too much faith in what these doctors are actually capable of predicting.

There is a link to an interview near the end of an article I read yesterday on CNN.Com that explains “why warning signs don’t always predict behavior.”

The article is here for those interested.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/20/vtech.shooting/index.html

the link to the interview is near the bottom.

By jim d

April 20, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this

Just me,

Oh my goodness.

By JustMe

April 20, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Please explain to jim d, then. He often is confused and I can only help him so much….

I do have a question for you. What is a “campus speech code”?

Also, isn’t any vigilante act a “hate crime?” For example, if a group of blacks attack a KKK member, isn’t that a “hate crime”? Does that really mean that “hate crimes” are strictly liberal or even strictly conservative?

By jim d

April 20, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

Just me,

One of us totally misunderstood what SET was saying.

I could be me.

By Jeff

April 20, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this

JustME:

“Campus speech codes” are rules that say you can’t say certain things on campus because some group may get offended. Rules such as not allowing certain groups to only allow members according to their beliefs, either religious or political. For example, there are on most campus rules that say you cannot say that homosexuality is a sin or morally wrong. There are are also rules that say that Christian organizations must allow non-Christians to be officers or they will be banned from campus. Those are, in effect, “campus speech codes” that are quite frankly unconstitutional, yet campuses - even my beloved Kennesaw State - get away with every day.

By SET

April 20, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this

Just Me: Glad you noticed. I’m really angry that all those people died the way they did. If I goose the argument it’s my way of getting through this.

Nearly all colleges & universities in the USA are run by white liberals - or other liberals. There are some exceptions (Hillsdale?) and I’m not talking about Bob Jones or Oral Roberts because they are just as bad as the liberals in their religious lunacy. So I sure don’t need to discuss that point with you or anyone else. You can say whatever you want. I say liberals care more about their liberal fantasies than about real people.

Don’t try to tell me about courts and litigation. I’m the one who can tell you how things are. I say there is always a way to dispose of crazy and dangerous people within the law and litigation risk if someone cares about the safety of their staff and students.

Your comment that I “Scare you” is typical liberal rhetoric. What you really think is that you want to silence me. You want to hear nothing but what you agree with, and you can’t hack it in an open debate. You amuse me because I’ve dealt with people such as this all my life and believe me I’ve always had a good time doing it.

My father used to have to get people to understand that they had to have surgery and they couldn’t wait long to undergo the procedure. He did a lot of Cancer surgeries. I went into law since I prefer using words and force instead of scalpels and needles. But I often deliver bad news for a living just as much as he did.

Your Great Society is losing control of the streets. It’s happened slowly enough so that some people are aware of what’s happening and others can refuse to see.

I believe that a lot of people are going to continue to get hurt in more (previously) unpredictable ways because of policy that facilitates what some have called “Black Swans” - events so astounding that they were considered unthinkable except in hindsight. Google the term. I see a Black Swan at VA Tech.

And I still think the public schools are the foundation upon which this nations workforce and electorate rests. So I comment and complain on educational policy. I see the products of the public schools every time I walk into a jail, prison or courtroom in this state and everytime I pick a jury.

But I have work to do so I’ll get going.

Brave New World.

By jim d

April 20, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

NOPE, it appears I got it.

By Jeff

April 20, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

Couldn’t have said it better myself

You wanted examples of guns SAVING lives? Here ya go!

By JustMe

April 20, 2007 1:09 PM | Link to this

SET,

Again, I ask you…. where do you find that the VA Tech administration, in particular, leans Liberal? I have been on that campus and know some of the administrators, and IMHO they are much more conservative in their beliefs. And, VA Tech is in a rural part of a Southern town that is very much conservative. I just don’t get how you assume that they are Liberal.

You scare me because anyone that slaps a label on things that they disagree with scares me. Being a Liberal has a specific definition, as does being a conservative. You cannot just assume that whatever you disagree with is “Liberal.”

By Lee

April 20, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

Jim D, from an AJC article commenting about how Virginia has some of the most restrictive laws in the nation regarding getting someone committed to psychiatric treatment….

“On Dec. 13, 2005, after the second woman complained about Cho, an initial evaluation found probable cause that Cho was a danger to himself or others and a magistrate ordered him evaluated at Carilion St. Albans, a private psychiatric hospital. The next day, according to court records, doctors at Carilion examined him and Cho denied he was suicidal. An exam showed “his insight and judgment are normal,” records state. A special justice concluded he was an imminent danger to himself — but not to others — and approved outpatient treatment, an alternative to commitment.”

I agree, there is no way to predict future behavior. However, I would contend that when your son goes off to college, he should have the right to know who is sleeping in the bunk below…

By jim d

April 20, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

Lee,

I’d rather he had a right to protect himself from whoever may be in the next bunk or a bunk down the hall.

By parentof2

April 20, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Lee: You should probably stop trying to help JimD and Jeff understand your reasoning—which again, is stellar in my opinion.

JimD and Jeff often adhere tenaciously to a reactionary and indefensible position. I wonder sometimes if they do it just for their own amusement and not because they actually believe what they are writing.

Jeff is a man who recently lost his job for being unreasonable and defiant. And appears to have learned little from the experience. Jim D likes to argue, but his posts often indicate a tendency toward extreme contrariness and a certain lack of depth in reasoning. I’m guessing he is not as well educated as you appear to be.

You will not win them over with rational arguments. I’ve read so much garbage about this VA Tech nightmare. Your clear, concise post summarized all the thoughts that have been swirling in my head an unorganized way for the last few days. Thanks.

By Jeff

April 20, 2007 3:03 PM | Link to this

parentof2:

1) I did NOT lose my job due to being “unreasonable and defiant”. I LEFT because my superintendent wanted my job for his daughter, and was thus allowing the students to get away with assault - sometimes aggravated - in order to drive me off.

2) From what I have seen, both Jim and I are quite rational. We are simply not going to back down when it comes to the erosion of our rights.

As Amidala says in Star Wars Episode III: “So this is how democracy dies. With thunderous applause.”

By SET

April 20, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

Jeff: You got that right about democracy.

And that’s a problem because??

By Jeff

April 20, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

SET:

For one, because I still believe in this Grand Experiment. For nearly 250 years we have shown that it CAN work. Unfortunately, it will be undone - as all great societies are - not be foreign invasion, but because its people become lazy and refuse to remain vigilant in their defense of their rights.

Again I echo Franklin: Those who would trade liberty for security deserve NEITHER.

By Lee

April 20, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

A democracy Jeff? Are you sure?

“At the close of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia on September 18, 1787, a Mrs. Powel anxiously awaited the results, and as Benjamin Franklin emerged from the long task now finished, asked him directly: “Well Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?” “A republic if you can keep it” responded Franklin. The term republic had a significant meaning for both of them and all early Americans. It meant a lot more than just representative government and was a form of government in stark contrast to pure democracy where the majority dictated laws and rights.”

A Republic, I might add, which was destroyed by Abraham Lincoln.

By Jeff

April 20, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

Lee:

To be even more precise, a “democratic republic”.

Point being that we don’t have an oligarchy, monarchy, theocracy, or any other system where individuals’ rights can be easily dismissed. HOWEVER, even in our system they can be dismissed if the people are not vigilant.

By jim d

April 20, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this

Lee,

At that very same convention I believe it was Madison that said the Senate would have two roles: “first, to protect the people against their rulers, secondly, to protect the people against the transient impressions into which they themselves might be led.

I certainly hope they do their job.

By ABS

April 20, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I would beg to differ - the state of Georgia is very close to being a theocracy :-) - I can’t buy beer on Sunday!

By jim d

April 20, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

ABS,

Yes you can, but you can’t set and have a good cigar at the same time:-)

By Jeff

April 20, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

ABS:

While I don’t care about the law one way or the other - I drink, but not so much that I would find a use for not buying my alcohol one of the other 6 days - until a compelling reason (other than “But I want to!”) can be presented, I see no reason to change the status quo. That has nothing to do with religion and EVERYTHING to do with logic. It causes no harm and may even be - at least slightly - lowering the number of DUIs and its associated perils. Therefore, logic says that until a compelling reason can be found, why bother doing away with it?

By Jeff

April 20, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

jim:

Touche! When all those that would want alcohol sales on Sunday will reverse the ban on smoking, I will reverse the ban on alcohol sales.

Fair enough?

By ABS

April 20, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

Let me clarify…I can’t buy beer in the grocery store or at a convenience store so I can go home and smoke cigars and drink beer on Sundays…excuse me. I can however go to a bar and get sloshed and drive home! Tee hee hee…. :-)

Only one more hour to go until the weekend! I’m so excited!

This is boring….you’ve been arguing all day…hell, all week! Let’s change the subject at least for the next hour. I don’t feel like arguing…let’s talk about butterflies or something.

By Jeff

April 20, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this

OK y’all, I’m getting ready to shut down, pick up the fiance, and take her to the hometown for the first time…

Y’all have a fun weekend, get outside - even if you just sit on the porch with your spouse in one arm and a beer in the other! - and I’ll see ya bright and early Monday mornin’!

By jim d

April 20, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

Here’s one for thought re; rights of the crazies.

http://www.power2u.org/articles/empower/citizenship.html

By jim d

April 20, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

I’ll drink to that!— :-)

By jim d

April 20, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this

How about let’s talk about teachers being paid with tax dollars to blog all day? Whatta think?

By jim d

April 20, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this

Travel safe Jeff

By Jeff

April 23, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

(Funny, when I said the same thing after Columbine, I was expelled for it….)[http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200704/INT20070420b.html]