Get Schooled

By jim d

April 16, 2007 8:17 AM | Link to this

Poppy-c**.

Rules are rules. Color of skin has nothing to do with understanding and abiding by the rules. What next? shall we make murder, rape and other serious crimes misdemeanors for minorities.

What the hell are these folks thinking? Oh, I forgot! We’re talking about the GC-BOE. They have a long standing history of not thinking.

By jim d

April 16, 2007 8:20 AM | Link to this

Oh and Briddget,

If you want to discuss racial disparity within the GCPS system, how about telling your readers the percentage of minorities represented in Alvins offices and on the BOE.

By jim d

April 16, 2007 8:22 AM | Link to this

Don’t y’all just love the road NCLB is taking us down?

By Jeff

April 16, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this

“Typical” offenses I have noticed by race (note that I have not had enough hispanic/ asians to draw a “typical” from - only about 10 or so, compared to the 200+ or so black/ white students I had in my teaching career):

Whites: Incessant talking, dress code (girls primarily). Only one ever threatened me, and once he was dealt with (he was a senior), he didn’t do it again.

Blacks: Fighting. dress code (equal violations among the sexes), contraband, threatening/ assault on teacher, drug-related activities. (To the tune of 6th graders putting chalk dust in rolled paper acting like it was a joint). The assaults/ threats I received were well documented on these blogs as they happened.

Among the reactions I noticed is that white students/ parents would typically accept the punishment and move on. They may think I “didn’t like them”, but typically they still obeyed my orders. Black students/ parents would claim I was racist and the behavior would get worse. (Note that in Randolph, the VAST majority of the parents were GREAT, and that is of BOTH races.) One memorable occassion in Newton happened about this time last year. I had written this same black kid up about 30 times by this point, asst principal was getting tired of dealing with him, and we had started calling home quite frequently. Mom comes to the school and tries to say we are BOTH (asst principal and I) racist - and he is black! Got to the point in that meeting where asst principal finally had to ask the mother to leave campus, as she was consistently denying her child had done anything and verbally abusing us both. Never had a reaction like that at ALL from white parents, though white parents would call my grading practices - admittedly draconian - “unfair”. (Note that in Randolph I had VERY few complaints about this, even though I did many of the same things in both systems as far as grading goes.)

As far as the racial divide question goes, I will say this: The divide isn’t that teachers won’t cut minority students slack. It is that minority students typically commit more egregious and violent acts and we are FORCED to send it to higher levels. When I had black teachers come into my class (particularly in Randolph), those teachers were often even more severe than I was, yet the students responded to them FAR sooner. I say that this goes to show more of a divide on the STUDENT side than the teacher.

By Jeff

April 16, 2007 8:35 AM | Link to this

jim:

regarding your first post:

AMEN!!!

By War Eagle

April 16, 2007 8:35 AM | Link to this

Here we go again. Are we now having a quota on penalties? Will the Majority please grow some BALLS or BREASTS and stop pandering to the minorities! If they do the crime they do the time. Can’t help it if WHITE kids are acting civil and the others are not. That is their culture and parenting. Enough with the oppressed BS! I’ve been oppressed for the 40 yrs that the Civil rights law came into effect. I have an idea-why don’t we kick the illegals out of America? Breaking and entering is a crime.

By Patrick

April 16, 2007 8:36 AM | Link to this

Common sense seems to cost more than gas nowadays. The reason why the majority of students punished are minorities is because THE MAJORITY OF THE STUDENT POPULATION ARE MINORITIES!!!

No school board needs to reevaluate their rules and regulations. Unless they intend to rethink what is considered a “deadly weapon” i.e. Tweety Bird keychain.

Is the school board doing this on a county-wide basis? I bet if they do it on an individual (that’s a word you leftists hate) basis, they might find that the schools with the highest discipline problems among minorities have a majority of their student count made up of minorities.

I agree with jim d. Rules are rules. If a white kid got into a fight or was caught with an inappropriate or illegal substance or object on school grounds, they’d face the same consequences.

When I was in 7th grade, I went to school in Rockdale County. I got into a fight with another boy during P.E. We were the same race. He didn’t get punished (I don’t think), but I had to serve three days in Alternative School. The other delinquents that were there were a mix of other ethnic backgrounds, and a couple others were same race as I am.

Research your school disciplinary history. You will find that white or caucasian students were punished just as equally as blacks or hispanics.

By jim d

April 16, 2007 8:40 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

I agree, and let me just add that many of the teachers I know in the GCPS’s bend over backwards when it comes to disciplining minority students for fear of being accused of any prejudices.

By Ernest

April 16, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this

Taking the story at face value, it is reasonable to add greater clarity to the discipline policy so everyone has the same understanding as to what can be addressed by the local school and what is addressed by an expulsion panel. As we all know, some simply look at the statistics without attempting to ‘drill down’ and get a true understanding of the data. Right and wrong should not have a ‘color quota’ associated with it.

I personally could care less about the color of the student that compromises my child’s education. I would want them out of the class, especially if they are a repeated violator.

By jim d

April 16, 2007 8:53 AM | Link to this

I’d be interested in knowing what percentage of these paneled students were there due to gang activities.

Bridget, have you got those numbers?

By KA

April 16, 2007 9:01 AM | Link to this

More admin meddling results in less teacher control of their classrooms, and who benefits by lowered disciplined behavior objectives?

By Janine

April 16, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

Bridget, the disciplinary measures to which you seem to be referring are suspensions and expulsions. Both of those are reserved certain egregious offenses. The notion that the race of the teacher plays a role in this is, imo, is absolutely preposterous. First, teachers do not decide which disciplinary measure will be applied. The teacher reports the offense and the administration/disciplinary hearing board decides on the penalty. If your question/implication is that the race of the teacher determines in some way when he/she will or will not report such flagrant disregard for rules, the answer is emphatically NO. On the other hand, there may be some degree of extra tolerance for minor first offenses, but more because of the student’s prior record and not because of race.

By V for Vendetta

April 16, 2007 9:05 AM | Link to this

Wow, this one truly makes me want to puke. Is this how far back the step we’ve obviously taken in the wrong direction goes? Are we really this pathetic that we must debate the disparity between the punishments doled out to different races? Apparently the answer is yes, because if a school board as large as Gwinnett has nothing better to do, then I fear our pathetic national ranking will never change.

As an upper-middle class suburban school teacher, I think that the disparity is most obvious in areas like mine. That having been said, it means there is even less of a reason to do something like this. As I have said (numerous times) before, one of the most important lessons we are robbing kids of now is PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY. This is something I find to be even more lacking in the minority students. Their parental support system is absolutely pathetic, and honestly, has no reason to be so. There is no real poverty in my district, there are no people living paycheck to paycheck, there are no people wondering where their next meal is coming from. Yet, the actions of many of the minortiy students (and their parents) reflect no such middle-class lifestyle. They come to school with a distinct thug mentality, they bring drugs, teen pregnancy, and fights into our halls, and they have a have a distinct distaste for authority.

If they would like to act like thugs, then I say we treat them like thugs. I have long fought for tougher discipline at my school and harsher punishments for those that break the rules, but if this is the direction that Georgia is going - led by its largest school district - then I say we better start enjoying being at the bottom of the rankings. Enjoy it, because we’re going to be down here for a long, LONG time.

By Janine

April 16, 2007 9:07 AM | Link to this

jimd@8:20 re: racial stats Gwinnett Co. administrative offices and BOE. Check out Dekalb. ANd it’s usually those educrats who sit on the panels that decide who gets expelled and suspended.

By jim d

April 16, 2007 9:32 AM | Link to this

Janine,

Thanks, but my comment was to attempt to get Bridget to post those numbers.

BOE = 0 minority members.

Alvins staff I believe will also be single digit numbers represented in percentages. Do a bit of research and you’ll find the minorities on his staff screw up big time on a regular basis and still maintain his support just to keep the feds off his back re; hiring practices.

By Former Teacher

April 16, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

As a African-American male and former middle school teacher, I will say there is a disparity, but the disparity is from the TEACHERS (plenty of studies have been done on this idea).

African American teachers are less likely to report discipline problems to administrators and choose to handle them in their own way. Is this the best solution? Probably not.

When I practiced this, it was to establish my role as the disciplinarian and leave the administrators as last resorts. Consequently, I had less problems in the classroom than most of my colleagues.

I am fully aware of the value my race and gender had in the classroom, so I know I am speaking from a specific viewpoint that most teachers aren’t afforded.

My suggestion would be to not change the policy because of race. Inappropriate behavior should not be allowed, regardless of race. Showing “slack” would only change the numbers not the behavior.

By RH

April 16, 2007 9:49 AM | Link to this

At one point, can I turn around and sue or government for descrimination, since my race (white) is protected by the constitution.

By fer

April 16, 2007 9:50 AM | Link to this

Like I always told my students: Behavior has no color. How could it possibly help the misbehaving students or the school systems to lower expectations? In my opinion, they should raise the expectations. Of course that’s one reason I retired as soon as I could.

By WHAT?

April 16, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

If parents do not care about eduaction or it is just not important to them, you can forget the child performing in school. The shame of it all is that students that do not value education hold back the ones that do. It seems there is a GROWING trend that Education is just not important among majority of black students.

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 9:52 AM | Link to this

Sounds crazy, but we are about to hit a time where white people are going to start marching and sueing over being descriminated against. We are at that point.

By Jesse's Girl

April 16, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

What a load of bull shi!!!!!! If students are breaking the rules…rules serious enough to warrant a serious punishment, then the race of the student should have zero to do with it. If my white child were acting out and disregarding the rules of his/her school…then you’d better believe I would stand behind any punishment handed down. Its called taking responsibility for your actions! This is simply the disciplinary version of dumbing down the curriculum. We cannot change the standards for a particular group of people simply because that group of people has trouble following and living up them! I would like to think the parents of these students are outraged. I would certainly take this as a slap in the face and a visceral insult.

By Zip it up

April 16, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this

Disproportionately crime committing minorities is your answer. Blacks commit crime at a much higher percentage than do other groups. Why? Many answers, but the other students should not suffer due to one groups inability to prosper in a civilized society.

Blacks need discipline, many are not getting any at home or in their communities. And when they are criticized for their failings they always play the race card.

What do you expect from the creators of the nappie headed hoe culture?

By V for Vendetta

April 16, 2007 10:21 AM | Link to this

Zip it up, follow your own name’s advice.

Jim, I love that you pointed out the extreme “whiteness” of the Gwinnett board, very true. They can be as white as they want in their ivory tower, but Gwinnett is a county that seems to WANT to be the next Dekalb (former “nice” county turned crap-hole). It seems that with every new idea the board comes up with to prevent that from happening, they are actually just accelerating the process. Are they really that far removed from reality? Are all those “doctors” really that blatantly stupid?

Wait, I already know the answer to that question.

By Quit whining

April 16, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

As a cultural group, African-Americans aren’t encouraged to take responsibility for anything. There is a pervasive message that everything is someone else’s fault, as a result of racism.

There is no coincidence that the culture that seriously discusses reparations for slavery has a high rate of children born out of wedlock, incarceration rates, violent crime rates, poverty, and school disciplinary actions.

By Jeff

April 16, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this

V:

Blacks moving in doesn’t equate to a hrll hole. Blacks with a “thug/ nappy headed ho” mentality moving in DOES equate to a hrll hole. Note that by “nappy headed ho” mentality, I’m referring to the inherent reverse racism/ entitlement/ thought police attitudes exhibited by the Idiots Sharpton and Jackson during this whole trumped up “controversy”. (As, I think, was Zip…)

By SET

April 16, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this

Boo Hoo. Blacks commit crimes at far greater rates than whites and asians and the “difference” is notable in childhood & puberty. An avg IQ of 85 and different hormone levels will do that.

And this is news? Of course the Black expulsion rate is higher. So is the Black institutionalization rate. There are ways to moderate this but they don’t include slacking off on discipline. When we had segregated schools, and upper class blacks ran those schools, & discipline was iron fisted. Once white guilt took over and integration was forced in the 1960s performance suffered.

Overall black aggression - especially that of the black males - can be channelled into money making endeavors. NBA and NFL comes to mind. Or policework. But you can’t get the students there if they are accostomed to running all over authority. Our public schools train blacks (male and female) to run over authority. This is a new development that did not occur prior 1960. Which is why widespread genuine progress stopped and was replaced with AA nonsense following that period. It didn’t help that the Federal Gov’t decided to pay the lowest class black women to produce bastards. (Diseugenics)

So when everyone has had enough of feral urban blacks maybe we will go back to things that worked. Which also don’t include the feminization of education. Black boys on the average grow up in a matriarcial society and are impaired when competing with, say, Irish and Hispanic candidates for those $100k cop/prison guard jobs in CA. At least give them iron fisted male authority figures in public schools. Goes for the girls also. The more experience they get with competent & take-no-prisoner male authority in school the more they may learn what to seek for a mate.

Maybe this is wishful thinking. At the rate we are going Blacks are going the way of the American Indian - they will be depopulated/dead and supplanted by Hispanics who do tend to have a patriarcal family structure.

The tale is best told by studying the mortality tables for the ethnics and noticing the trends for causes of death and aavg age of death. Urban Blacks now are on life support. One national disaster such as a great depression - or superinflation - and the life support will be pulled.

By Ms. Writer

April 16, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this

Zip it up and others: Did you think that a country founded on the blood of others would be a successful endeavor? Did you think that years of slavery (I’m over it so don’t start with the blaming rhetoric) that continued into Jim Crow and other animal treatment by Whites towards Blacks would benefit Black people? DId you think that “giving” us freedom would make the issues of the past just go away? What you are experiencing is the after effect of years and years of degradation by your people. Now you don’t want to deal with it. It is called you reap what you sow - karma - whatever you want to call it. Do I think that the Black community needs work? Hell yes, I will be the first to say so - but you can’t help but see everything that is happening is the sour fruit from the tree called America.

By Charles Truitt

April 16, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this

The reason that minority students make up 68% of those being disciplined ,although the percentage of minoroties is only 51% may be the same reason that Blacks and Hispanics make up about 80% of our total prison population in America and 99% of street gangs. Face the truth , if it weren’t for Blacks and Hispanics , we could close eight out of ten of the prisons in this country and street gangs would be a thing of the past. Doesn’t speak too highly of our minority communities does it ?

By Ms Writer

April 16, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this

Quit Whining - Whites have high abortion rates, divorce rates, your out of wedlock rates are also increasing - whites commit different types of crimes, but the crimes are committed - spare me.

By Chullato

April 16, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this

Guys - Although I agree with most of your sentiments regarding changing discipline policy for a particular race, generalizations and discriminating views outside of the topic at hand does nothing end the problem or add to the discussion.

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

Ms. Writer, if you think America is the sole purpose for holding you back and your race, move away from the sour fruit and start you life over. You have so many options to choose from b/c your race is flourishing in so many other areas…yeah right. America is your only chance b/c you can piggy back off someone else’s hard work. If I feel that something is holding me back, then I remove myself from it. What a thought?

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this

Ms Writer, I used to date someone like you (the sour apple and always the victim) and I moved away from them.

By Jeff

April 16, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

Writer:

A lesson I learned in adolescence proves telling for the black community:

If you do not let go of your past, rest assured: it WILL destroy you.

The ONLY way to survive is to deal with things and adapt. Slavery/ Jim Crow are over. They were over LONG before my parents even MET, much less thought about having their first child (me). GET OVER IT! In Randolph, I worked with quite a few black people. Something I noticed: There were two that typified the older blacks to me, a man and a woman. The man abused his power as a way to get back at the whites that worked under him. The woman chose instead to work with the whites, as she knew that we CHOSE to come work in what we KNEW was a VASTLY majority black community. Yes, we had our differences, but especially in my later times there, we came to realize that we both wanted the same thing for those kids. With my age generation, I noticed even in my colleague a sense of the “nappy headed ho” culture, if not the thug culture. (She did in fact love the rap trash, but she also had class.) Note that while I noticed FEW older blacks with the thug/ nappy headed ho culture, from my peers down it was the ACCEPTED MAJORITY culture.

Think race relations are bad right now? I agree with the comment earlier: it is quite possible that a white backlash is on the horizon, and it could get down right NASTY before it gets better.

By Ms Writer

April 16, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

Clearthinking - READ PLEASE I did not say that AMerica is holding the black race back..I said that the issues that are going are are directly related to historical issues… Me? I did not have to deal with poverty because three generations of my family have fought for this country and allowed the current generation including myself to prosper….I am clearly speaking about cause and effect…

By Al

April 16, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

As a Black male, I am growing more and more amazed at what the AJC allows to be posted here. As a professional, I am embarrased that something like this is allowed to go on. As an educator, I am discouraged by both sides of this argument. Sure, if you do the crime, you must do the time — race should have nothing to do with it. However, when we look at discipline numbers without looking at the root cause of the problems, we are wasting good time and money on bad data.

The other side of the argument seems to imply that only minority students commit aggregious acts. That is simply not true. I teach in a suburban middle school that is about 60% white. I find that many teachers make no attempt to handle the discpline of minority students on their own, they immediately send them to the administration. These same teachers will make multiple attempts to contact parents, stay exceptionally late or come exceptionally early to meet with parents, allow students to serve teacher-specific detention, send students to the counselors, and allow students to write essays, etc. when it comes to the majority students. For example, if Robert(black male) is caught horseplaying with friends, (other black males), he recieves a referral for fighting. If Brock(white male) announces in class that he refuses to do his classwork, and continually disrupts the classroom, he recieves a call to his parents and a visit to the counselor to “cool off.” Multiple referrals to administrators lead to referrals to hearing panels.

I have been teaching a few years, I consider myself educated (BS, MBA, M.Ed., and nearing completion of a Ed.D), and have done a great deal of research. It is time that educators start looking at the students as individuals to determine who they are and what actions indicate a problem. A loud, boisterous, black kid may not be as much of a threat as a timid, quiet, soft-spoken white kid - who may be planning a Columbine-style attack.

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

Ms Writer….you keep talking about this history of blood shed and wrong doing and slavery, but the white race is the majority of who are the trying to correct the issue. If the black race was actually trying to help itself and struggling to do so, then maybe you could have a valid point. But to sit back and sell crack and have babies and blame it on slavery and do absolutely nothing for yourself or your own family’s future, you have lost all credibility.

By Quit whining

April 16, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

Ms Writer, I could care less what happened up to this point in history, including yesterday. If you want to keep reliving the past like those pathetic flag obsessed fat Civil War reenactors, go for it. The rest of America is leaving you in the dust. We’re not suffering half as much as the black community.

Blacks kill whites, but they kill other blacks in far greater numbers. They sell drugs in their own communities to young black children. They raise their children to disrespect authority because of the nutty sour fruit thing that you’re ranting about. They show up for jobs late or not at all and end up getting fired. They abandon their kids.

Whether the rest of America is to blame makes no difference. African-Americans, like every other group, hold the key to their own destiny. If they would quit wanting America to make amends or stamp out racism, and just concentrate on what they need to be doing they’d get much farther.

But it’s much easier to wallow and blame others. Enjoy.

By Zip it up

April 16, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

Ms. Writer, if you hate America so much (the one country where a number of blacks have been able to succeed) I have a one way boat ticket to Liberia in your name.

Your slave attitude is what is helping to hold blacks down.

By Ms Writer

April 16, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

Jeff:

I agree with you…I do think that both blacks and whites should get over the past. Noone in my family mentions slavery or Jim Crow on any regular basis. I also stated that I am not excusing the issues of the black community…I don’t at all and I think that some of the issues are unacceptable and not related to the past. I want the whites on here to realize that most black people want the same things that they want, a prosperous life and family…

By Jesse's Girl

April 16, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

This could be a never-ending discussion. However, the problem at hand is this…..is it not a disservice to ANY group of people to alter the rules because they are deemed too inept to follow them? This insults me! Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Whites…what have you….are all students in the same schools. They must ALL be made to follow the same rules and accept the same punishments. Every student has the capacity to succeed. But if their community counts them as unable to conform….then they will continue to behave ridiculously. Talk about reaping what you sow.

By John

April 16, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

Al, your comments are so racist and you don’t even realize it.

By love jones 4

April 16, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

Why does the AJC love doing these type blogs — knowing the resulting racist comments that it will produce? You never really get any well-thought out analysis. And I see why some of the teachers are teachign high school and never progressed on to the college level or research. Put in more capable hands, those with more thought would have digested this topic and have concluded that when you hold for socioeconomic factors, it’s likely the disciplinary measures would be the same across races. The biggest behavorial problems can likely be tied to the makeup of the parents’ household and educational attainment. Being a black man, I would be the first to say we have a lot of problems in our communities and schools due to the fact of absent black males and the high number of single parent households. It’s a complex, deeply-rooted problem but it’s one the black community should never stop trying to address. But this is still the South! Where is the help from the white community — instead of “suburban, middle class teachers” looking down their noses, rigidly holding on to their stereotypes and not looking for solutions? This is an American problem — a legacy of slavery and Jim Crow. Integration just occured in 1970 in most Southern school systems. Equal access to jobs for African Americans only began then as well. I make no excuses and never have sought them but my parents were denied a chance at real education in the 1930s and only had fifth-grade educations — how can you expect them to have more when they had to walk 8 miles to school one way plus their parents (my grandparents) needed them to work menial and backbreaking jobs doing sharecropping work in a system that never allowed them to get ahead? Do you think I, who just turned 40, had/have equal footing with my white co-worker who is the same age but was afforeded the luxury of college-educated parents because there was no system in place to hold his parents back? No, I didn’t — he had a head start. But in most measurable ways, I have caught up with what same co-worker by attaining a college degree. Yet there are thousands of others who WERE affected by that denial of education and jobs and their educational attainment/lifestyle/children are reflective of this and they are still bridging the gap. Historians will tell you that the 40 years after Jim Crow ended is but a blip of time to measure progress and that blacks are headed increasingly into the middle class in numbers that outstrip what you expect from a people denied full access to education/jobs for most of this country’s history. But generational change is still needed and I have no doubt it will come. But what we are stuck with is a huge American problem — regardless of colors. We need people to drop their biases and stereotypes, reach across White/Black/Hispanic neighborhoods and do all we can to advance the possibilies of all our youth. You can seek solutions and educate them now. Or pay for it later with taxes for prisons and other reformatory efforts that are rarely as good as money and effort spent in the front end. Hopefully, smarter minds than most of the ones I’ve read on this blog will be doing the thinking.

By Ms Writer

April 16, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

Zip it Up - As a matter of fact - I love this country and if you would actually READ instead of being combative, three generations of my family have served America - why do people believe that if you critique something that you hate it? Be mature. YOu can’t even have an intelligent debate without attempting to attack someone personally.

By Mick

April 16, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

this is getting so ridiculous, to the point where drastic measures are needed. for the next five years, anybody that mentions anything about race should receive an electric shock, and yes, just like in society, blacks will show that they need to be shocked more!

By Chullato

April 16, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this

Quit Whining

Whites kill blacks, but they kill other whites in far greater numbers. They sell drugs in their own communities to young white children. They raise their children to disrespect authority because of the nutty sour fruit thing that you’re ranting about. They show up for jobs late or not at all and end up getting fired. They abandon their kids.

It’s true, whether its on the news or you believe it not to be.

By Ms Writer

April 16, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

Jesse’s Girl - I agree with you. I think that discipline on the basis of race is idiotic. I think that they should have never stopped whipping kids in school anyway - the disrespect is ridiculous - I am young and advance degreed and you could not get me to fill out an application to be a teacher today.

By JustMe

April 16, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

I do not understand this. Rules are rules. Administrators should not bend the rules for any group. If they are bending the rules, that is the problem here!

Gwinnett County should not back off enforcing the rules to try to balance out some numbers. Gwinnett County should simply ensure that the rules are evenly enforced and then let the cards fall where they may!

By Cane

April 16, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

Most Black parents now a days know nothing about being a parent. They are young, quick to dump children off with grandparents or others so they can go to the club. They are afraid to step up to the challenge of raising a kid in a harsh environment. It is hard, but it can be done. It does not matter what percentage or how many black kids are acting up in your class. If the parents won’t parent then so be it.

By D

April 16, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

it’s sad to say, but the only chance we have to make real positive advances in race relations will only be able to happen after all the civils rights people have passed away, all the bitter, hate-filled, one-sided people like jackson, Sharpton, etc. they are perpetuating the bs of racism and over using the race/trump card. but a little note about slavery, before blacks had anything to complain about with America, the Egyptians were enslaving white people, the Romans were enslaving white people, the Barbary Pirates were raiding coastal towns in England and Ireland between the 1500s and the 1800s, we’ve all been slaves, we’ve all been abused at one time or another, in racism today, slavery should not, and is not an issue! it about something totally different, it’s about wanting special treatment and benefits that aren’t deserved. this mean ol’ world doesn’t owe any of us a damn thing! and the black community should be concerned with the next batch of white people, they are going to be extremely angry, apathetic to any needs of the black community and they are going to do something that is really gonna put this blame game to shame, they are gonna start uniting and standing together against this injustice, something white people don’t do much is stand together, but on this they eventually will, white people are starting feel besieged and are tired of getting blamed for things they don’t do, and for getting blamed for idiots like Imus. there will always be racists, so trying to erradicate them isn’t going to work, it’s only going to demonize the once great cause of true civil rights and equality, so ge the hell over it!

By Quit whining

April 16, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

Al, did you stop to consider that teachers give the white kids more latitude because of factors like Jeff’s post @ 8:33?

I’d be first to agree that black kids may get more harsh treatment for the same offenses. However, black America seems to concentrate on the unfairness of treatment—or the perception thereof—-instead of asking why the kid’s getting in trouble in the first place. That’s a culture-wide behavior that extends to arrests, job firings, etc.

You can try to change the behavior of the administration.

In reality, you can’t control anyone else’s actions, good, bad, or indifferent. You can change your own actions and perspective.

By Jeff

April 16, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

Writer @ 10:55:

Agreed. That is why I find the thug/ nappy headed ho culture so sad. MOST parents of EITHER race that I have seen only want what is best for their kids. They WANT their kids to be well balanced, good, productive citizens that we can ALL be proud of. If I had a penny for every time I’ve heard “He got into the music and I don’t know how to stop him” or “I don’t know where it came from”, I’d be a billionaire. But I’m not even blaming blacks for that - even though it IS a cop out -, parenting is HARD no matter the race. One issue is that while whites give each other good, sound advice about parenting, blacks do not. Instead, a black parent is more likely to hear messages of give up or blame it on whitey.

By Jesse's Girl

April 16, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

Amen! I remember the absolute FEAR a child had for getting sent to the office when I was in school. That paddle was evil! I say bring back spankings in school!! We could fill out cards for our kids much like the emergency contact forms we sign. ” In case of crazy a$$ kid and your lack of availabilty, please list all persons who have permission to come to school and spank your child”. That way, we won’t have a stranger disciplining our children. Being socially accepted is so very important to a child, of any age. If the embarrassment of physical punishment works to stabilize their behavior…then so be it.

By jim d

April 16, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

Well said just me.

HOLY SMOKES!!

just me and jim d agree? Thats gotta be a first on this blog! :-)

By Mick

April 16, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

how would you like to use the race card in a card game, you have it, but your opponents don’t, a trump card that not only can be used once, but over and over as many times as you want to use it. does that sound like a fun game? does that sound like equality?

By SET

April 16, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

AL & Lover Jones4: Some of your points are typical of young, politically correct people who don’t get it.

You don’t get to silence people who think differently than you. You should be thanking AJC for providing a forum where you can read what no one will speak to your face - The Truth.

Most of the comments here are from people who have lived it - and there’s a lot of scholarly research - including research by blacks and other minorities such a John McWhorter, Thomas Sowell, Dinesh D’Souza and others about Black performance in schools and in society and economic life. And then there’s Charles Murray and his books - such as The Bell Curve.

If you can’t explain the rotten performance of public school blacks since the Great Society programs took off in the mid-1960’s all of your commenting about “racism” just brings laughter to me. And I’m black. And My family has been in education across the entire 20th century (both segregated and integrated).

And by the way, if you have not covered Charles Murray’s books you are not an educated person when it comes to US Educational Policy. If you don’t address the IQ ethnic distribution disparity you are in no position to address public education.

What has happened to blacks in the USA since 1965 is no different than herding Native Indians into reservations and setting up free liquor stores. And now the Feds are replacing blacks as service workers with millions of imported Mexicans, brought in and made citizens. This group will soon enough own CA government and congressional seats and FL also.

And I don’t mind saying so.

Understand this. Affirmative Action is dead. You haven’t had the funeral yet. The economy is turning harsh - if the government superinflates the currency and some economist believe is already happening, living standards will fall dramatically. Who will get the worst of this?

If we don’t reverse the indulgences given blacks and train them to survive in this Brave New World - there may not be any Blacks to speak of eventually. (kind of like black housekeepers in Los Angeles) Don’t believe for a moment the Mexicans will have any mercy whatsoever for urban blacks when they come to power. They have no White Guilt. And by the way, their avg IQ is believed to be 93. Combined with patiarchal culture and a rip-roaring fertility rate it won’t be but a generation or two more for this group to seize political power state by state.

It’s no longer white vs black.

By jim d

April 16, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

You may have over-generalized. My black freinds raise their kids pretty much the same way I’m raising my lilly white ones.And we do talk!

By dar

April 16, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

For the last thirteen years of my teaching career, I was the In-school Suspension teacher at a middle school. The last eleven of those years the principal was a black male. I am a white male.

The reason that more minority students are being disciplined than white students is that those minorities commit more offenses. It isn’t that the rules are designed against minorities. It’s that the expectations are equal for everybody and minorities aren’t measuring up.

Stop coddling these kids and hold them, and their parents, accountable for their behavior. No one wants these kids on the streets getting into trouble rather than being in a classroom and learning what they will need to know in order to survive in the (I hate this term) “real world”. Any one who worked in an industry would be fired for behaving like some of these kids do. But we expect schools to put up with them and their bad behavior and at the same time reach the goals established by such garbage as “No Child Left Behind”.

Minorities aside, these issues of discipline aren’t new. But the manner in which discipline issues are dealt with is the same old old.

As I have stated, no one wants these kids on the streets getting into trouble, but that should not be the problem for the schools. That is a problem for their parents and the police.

If you want the schools to teach, if you want the students to learn, including the minorities that want to learn, then you’ve got to create situations where that is possible and you (school boards, politicians, parents) aren’t doing that.

By concerned

April 16, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

As anyone will tell you there are three sides to the story. I am an attorney who has represented children in front of the school board. Where if a black child asks “why?,” they are talking back. If a white child asks why they are told.

I have had the pleasure of attending a predominately white school, where the children would set the desk on fire in front of the teachers. Drugs and alcohol were sold (but in their parent’s home). Fights happen at both schools, but if it was white they were handled locally and not sent as a referral to the school board. I have had a black child who was watching a fight, referred to the school board as being disruptive. Of course the other half of the school was also attending.

There is disparity in discipline at schools, like there is diparity in the incarceration rate. Whites are more likely to be sentenced to house arrest or a lesser time than blacks. Just compare Martha Stewart and Bill Campbell.

Also remember, blacks may fight and shoot eachother…but they have yet try to kill everyone in their entire school. Not saying the comparison is good. But the discipline problem with the children is not race, it is up bringing and where we are going as a society. The sentencing and reporting of the issues are race. It is more expected to see a black face on t.v. than white.

By Jeff

April 16, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this

jim:

Ah, but I’m referring to the GENERAL black parent. There are many exceptions, but my generalization is based specifically on my experience in Randolph (and South GA in general) in an area where the majority of people are black and may have few few, if any, white friends.

By just asking

April 16, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

LoveJones and Ms Writer:
So are you saying that black students should not be held to the same discipline (and I guess, eventually, academic) standards that white and Asian children are held to because they are, through no fault of their own, culturally incapable of meeting those standards?

How can lowering expectations ever help a race or culture to rise above its past and succeed in a competitive world?

How can you seriously advocate such a destructive social policy for your children?

Self discipline and individual excellence are always the best deterrent to discrimination and the surest way to rise above one’s circumstances. Likewise, self pity is a certain path to failure.

You cannot use social policy to artifically construct individual excellence. The rest of the world can always recognize the real thing.

By jim d

April 16, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this

Set,

Since we won’t be able to blame all the folks from south of the border in the near future, who do we blame next?

Mundo Nuevo Valiente

By Mick

April 16, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this

guess what, after the beating we’ve been taking for decades, trust me, there is no such thing as ‘white guilt’ anymore, blacks have beaten that out of us, doing more harm to themselves along the way. it’s going to be real funny listening to a black person in coming years complain about how hard is to be a black person when none of them were born in the 60’s or before, it is a shame to see the gains of MLK so terribly squandered.

By Ms Writer

April 16, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

Just asking: READ 11:02 post please

By OldSchool

April 16, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

This entire “discussion” hurts my heart.

I’m not the perfect teacher by any means but I try so hard to give all my students a chance to succeed. Granted, not all want to be drafters but I wish that they would just try to learn something. My course is one that is loaded with valuable skills any student can use later in life…if he or she will just make the effort.

Discipline in a classroom must begin inside the participants and yes, I’m including the teacher. I set the example. My biggest fault is being too easy on my discipline problems, but fortunately those are few and rather rare. I am more frustrated by students who will not even try to do minimally acceptable and think that’s okay.

It just plain hurts to see talent go untapped and unawakened.

Yes, I have problem students and yes, I’ve been threatened. Still there are those who turn themselves around and keep me coming back each year. I’m really pretty lucky.

By makes sense

April 16, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this

you will always be judged by past behavior, and because of that, black people should take responsibility for many of the opinions others have of them. people don’t just wake up one day and start thinking ‘black people sure have a big chip on their shoulder’ or ‘black people sure are ready to blame others a lot’, no, that kind of thing is learned just by simply watching.

By luvs2teach

April 16, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

We are done with the CRCT and waiting to change classes. I mentioned this article to my EXTREMELY diverse class. One of my AfAm kids said it’s because “we’re not ‘bouge’” - which means stuck up according to him - I asked him to clarify and he said “we’re just different.”

Racist teachers came up, but most kids agreed that racist teachers don’t tend to work in diverse schools - why would they want to help that which they dislike.

Another one of my African-students said that “we don’t don’t meet white people’s standards.” They are laughing hysterically as I type this. He also said the black students feel that they can’t be as good as white kids so they act the opposite to gain attention.

One of my Asian students said, “It starts with the parents, and from how they are disciplined. This affects the peer groups they choose and the peer groups influence their behavior.”

I asked them who they would be more likely to behave for, black or white teachers and another one said “teachers are teachers.”

From the mouths of babes…

By Quit whining

April 16, 2007 11:49 AM | Link to this

If an attorney is comparing Martha Stewart’s crimes and jail time to Bill Campbell, either you’re not a very good lawyer or just begging the question.

You want to compare them?

Whatever her crime, Martha voluntarily began serving her sentence before her appeal was through. She also reached a settlement on some of the charges where she didn’t admit guilt but still paid fines and agreed to other punishments.

Contrast that with Bill Campbell. This slug essentially forged a note blaming racism for his conviction and signed his dead mother’s name to it. All the charges against him are because “someone doesn’t like a black man in power”. Classic example of the African-American cultural denial of personal responsibility.

By Ed

April 16, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

This same ‘trend’ follows them outside of school and on to the streets, look at the prison poluations in Amercia. Perhaps if we didn’t treat some races with unequal and unfounded privledges based on the fact they’re a minorty, they’d learn earlier you can’t get by with crime and breaking rules at an earlier age. Old habits die hard.

By Susan

April 16, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

At the Gwinnett middle school where I teach, the opposite seems to be the case. Some of the faculty seems reluctant to discipline African-American students because then the parents/students “play the race card” and we are accused of picking on students because of their race. Some of the A-A staff seem to be overly protective of A-A students and don’t discipline the students when they should. The county needs to also look at the types of disciplinary incidents and see whether maybe the discipline is warranted because of different ways A-A students respond to teachers when they are corrected, etc. Often A-A students are much more beligerant than students who are white.

By D

April 16, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this

From a metro teacher. It is an unfortunate reality that the majority of our signficant behavior issues are from “minorities.” I do not think teachers or administrators are unfair. If anything, in an effort not to appear racist, the children in question are given more slack. We have got to come uo with a better term than minority, given that no race is a majority any longer.

By Jeff

April 16, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this

Susan:

From my experience, your last statement is EXACTLY why teachers may send a black kid to the office when they wouldn’t a white kid… all in how the kid responds….

By just asking

April 16, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

Ms Writer: Then I guess I’m confused. What is the point of your earlier post if not to make excuses for the behavior of black children in school?

Are you saying, “Yes, punish them, but feel guilty about it because its not their fault?”

You say you are young, so you might not have children yet; but as a parent, I can tell you that ambivalence and guilt lead to bad discipline. Children have to know that you BELIEVE their behavior is wrong, you KNOW they can do better, you will accept NO excuses, and you WILL punish them if they ever do it again.

And most importantly, mothers and fathers, like teachers and administrators, have to speak with one voice and act as one body concerning discipline.

Maybe you need to rethink one of your posts. Either we take ownership of our own behavior and our own path to success or we look around for someone else to blame and we fail. That is the only message we can send to our kids—of any race—if we want them to succeed.

By Chullato

April 16, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

Are parents held liable for the actions of the children in school?

By Sagegirl

April 16, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

Here we go again… pandering to those who do not need to be pandered to. The school systems are getting played and aren’t smart enough to know it. They should grow a pair and stop taking crap off the whining parents that believe they’re owed something since the 1800’s, as they teach their children how to play the system and to be criminals. Treating people differently due to the color of their skin was against the law… or so I thought!

By makes sense

April 16, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

the way life is for blacks today, is mostly because of blacks. the responsibility for blacks, is with blacks. improvements can be made and racism can be diminished, not completely removed, but greatly diminished, but only through hard-working efforts by blacks, tolerance and reaching out by the black community to other communities, and by admitting mistakes that they have made towards others, but the ‘victim’ mentality will only help to continue the backward slide that blacks have created for themselves.

By Teacher Not For Long

April 16, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

I whole heartedly agree with Jesse’s Girl. I wish more parents had that mindset. I currently teach in a very urban school. It was by choice. This school has the lowest test scores and I thought I could make a difference. BUt I have been broken. Most of my kids do not wish to learn. It is social time for them. And those who do want an education are leaving the school. I can no longer handle the threats against my life, the phone messages are atrocious. I think it would totally blindside these kids to get spanked for their behaviour.

By Judi

April 16, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Amen to Jeff and to Jesses Girl. I am both a parent and a teacher. The majority of the world would not believe what goes on in the schools on a daily basis. Until blacks admit they have problems and their communities try to correct those problems, things are only going to get worse. And you and I as tax payers are having to pick up the tab. Not only on the educational front, but through their over use of the penal system as well.

By D

April 16, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this

Dear Chullato, The answer to your question is, “No, NEVER!”

By Jeff

April 16, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

TNFL:

Welcome to my world!

If your degree wasn’t education, switch to your field.

If it was education, switch to SOME field. I’m pretty sure that Foxworthy’s Roof Tar in the Summer is FAR better than education!

By just a list

April 16, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this

reginald denny tawanna brawley crystal gail mangum OJ jackson (hymietown) black panthers (aka ‘the KKK for black folks) louis farrakhan sharpton (‘those diamond peddling jews’) etc.

when the black community is truly ready for racial healing, truly ready to move forward together as Americans, when the things that they say about race are truly sincere….all this begins only when the black community is willing to openly and fairly address these issues and many others.

By Lynette

April 16, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this

I was reared by a minority parent (American Indian)in a home where race or creed was never mentioned.
I have had more issues with African American students calling my daughter racial slurs than you can imagine, she is of white, hispanic and indian descent and appears white.
Children learn this at home period! I work eith several African Americans who will not even acknowledge a white muchless carry on a polite “good morning how are you” conversation.

By Hick from the sticks

April 16, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

It’s been so long since I chimed in.

Hello, all.

Let’s see…

An attempt to balance out the numbers? Yikes. When I was in Clayton County (seven years, fresh out of college) teaching English, one of the first things my students learned was not to cross the little bald-headed cracker in front of the room.

Most of them laughed. Not from disrespect, but because they had never heard a whitey refer to himself as a cracker. When they asked the reason for such self-deprication, I simply responded that white folks don’t seem to have their own strand of “race-offensive” terminology, so I was updating them on what’s new with the white folks.

We had a good laugh about it, rapport was established either through heart-to-heart talks on the porch of my trailer (jimd—pull back the hounds. :) I know how you feel about the “portable learning facilities”. ;) ), time spent perusing literature, and all points in between.

There was one thing my students learned at that school with regards to discipline: do not cross my path when it comes to classroom management. With regards to Truman, the buck not only stopped here, but was stomped, shredded, and set ablaze. As the majority of the school was black, I suppose I didn’t have time to consider the thoughts of the minority, as I was the minority at that school.

When I left to come to my current school, tears were shed, small gifts from co-workers, students, and parents were recieved. The parents would thank me for the job I did with their child, and I still hear from not only those past students, but the parents sometimes as well.

Now at my current school, my reputation precedes me. I meet parents (white, black, brown, purple, straight haired crackers, et cetera) who come to me with this exasperated look on their faces not knowing what to do with their own children. I offer my assistance, and, with the parent’s kind permission, the problem is resolved during the child’s tenure with me.

Discipline is discipline. Rules are rules. You screw up, it’s your mistake. Not the mistakes of the past, not the socio-economic past, present, and future. Just yours.

Simple enough?

By it's late in the 4th quarter

April 16, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

the game is almost over, blacks need to try some new tactics, the blame and manipulation is wearing thin, people are opening their eyes. I hope that when the tactics change that they change for the better, not more bs, not more blaming that awful white guy, the next strategy used by blacks should be the same one that they have been asking from everyone else, but if the black community decides more pressure, more blame, more hate, more punishment, than their credibility may be forever lost, they’ll look worse than the boy who cried wolf. blacks need to give to others the same thing that others gave them after the civil rights act, a chance.

By Rob Smith

April 16, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

Read about this firm advising Atlanta Public Schools on this Website. It is just shocking, Red Rock Global. Click on this link: http://redrockglobal.blogspot.com/

By Parents do not care today

April 16, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

I was taught not to be disrespectful by my parents. I was taught that education is important by my parents. I was taught that I am responsible for me by my parents. I was taught a work ethic by my parents.

By Ernest

April 16, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

Did everyone hear about the shootings at Va. Tech today? There were shootings at two locations on campus today with multiple fatalities. The exact number has not been confirmed at this time however they are saying about 21 people were killed. Seems there was another incident within the past year at this school. Sad state of affairs….

By This Blog . . .

April 16, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

This blog is evidence that nothing will change anytime soon. Just finger pointing and blaming whitey.

By Old Physics Teacher

April 16, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

From my perspective, a rural, poor, fourtysomething percent minority population, I have seen a reason for the disparity in discipline. I would walk down the hall and see two white kids holding hands and rubbing up against each other. I would approach them, separate their hands and tell them that was inappropriate. They would look me in the face, then look down, and then say, “We’re sorry. It won’t happen again.” I had a choice: either take them to the office and spend 15 minutes filling out a discipline referral, or go on about my business. Which one do you think I picked - duh!

When I would walk up on two black kids hugging on eahc other, I would ask them to separate. What I would get from them was, “Why are you picking on me?” or some such other showing of an attitude. Once agin I had a choice: either to ignore it or spend the 15 minutes to write them up. Because of their attitude, they forced me to handle this differently than white kids. I was talking to my 9th grade class later about this. I told them that when they were disciplined by a teacher if they would just shut up and appologize for the infraction, they would get out of most problems. The kids all asked why they had never been told this before.

The problem is that many (not all - or even most) black parents don’t know how to discipline their kids. Consequently, when the kids show up at school they act toward their teachers the same way they act toward their parents. In reality, the students act better toward the teachers than they do toward their parents. That’s why they don’t understand why the teachers get angry with them. It’s also why the parents get angry with us. What the kids are doing is acceptable behavior to the parents.

By just asking

April 16, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

Teacher Not For Long: Yours is the saddest post I’ve read on this blog in a while. It’s also a cautionary tale for school boards everywhere in our state.

Black schools already have problems hiring and retaining teachers. Only the very young, idealistic, or underqualified and desperate for employment will teach in black schools as it is.

This situation will only get worse by accusing white teachers of “soft prejudice” (as Mr Crowson did in the Gwinnett meeting) and then sending them for more worthless “training,” ostensibly to help them overcome their soft prejudice. But really to make them even more afraid to discipline black kids so the district can keep those numbers down.

What teacher with any kind of credentials (and self respect) would agree to teach in a majority black school under these circumstances?

By scott

April 16, 2007 12:39 PM | Link to this

The Black community is no more a single homogeneous community thant whites, Asian,Hispanics, or any other race of people. All Black people do not listen to rap music (80 percent purchased by white teenagers), on welfare (pure numbers, there are more white families on welfare than blacks), use drugs (meth anyone?), and so forth.

All you Don Imus wannabees that speak out of ignorance and stereotypes to describe a group of people you hardly associate with is a joke. All you know is what you see on television or hear on the radio, but who is making the decision of what you see and hear (white males). In my family alone on both my wife’s and mines each of our parents has at least one masters degree or PHD. Between my wife and I we have three masters degrees and I will place our children against any child academically. Guess what we are not the exception.

I hope we start dealing with FACTS and not paint a entire race of people by the actions of few. If that was the case all young para-military white males are terrorists - Tim McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, Theo the Unibomber, shall I continue….

By claude

April 16, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

YUP, 21 dead at Virginia Tech. Horrible watching along with this ridiculous blog of reverse racisim

By Charles

April 16, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

There is definitely a racial divide which is responsible for the negative behavior of African Americans, men, women, and children; namely integration or volunteer slavery. Thirty-seven years ago, we had no disciplinary problems in the independent schools located primarily in the South. All of our teachers were disciplinarians. We had no white teachers.

A few students from the North were transformed when they came to the South because too many of us were on the right path. We could not be influenced by their negative behavior because they were few in number. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., said, “Negroes in the North need to learn to stick together.” He may not have understood the glue which held us together in the South, communalism, was absent in the North, integration. One thing was for sure. We in the South had a healthy respect for God, elders, teachers, adults, and other people.

I distinctly remember learning of unbelievable inhumane problems in the North. We discussed in a government class how it was reported in the North that people were homeless, living in the streets of America, and no one stopped to render service. This was unheard of in the South because we were basically a communal people. We were responsible for each other in the schools and the neighborhood.

The disciplinary problems in the schools today is rooted in the evil and heartlessness contained in integration or volunteer slavery as far as thinking, well meaning, African Americans who have some connection to the past is concerned. I suspect that integration has caused the masses in both groups to suffer undue Godless criminal hardship.

By JustMe

April 16, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this

Scott and claude -

I think that most of the people posting here are sharing their direct experiences in urban schools. I do not think that they mean to imply that everyone, every where, acts the same.

However, I do agree with a few of the posters when they have said that the most meaningful thing that can happen is for a black person to stand up and guide other black people in doing the right thing!

By scott

April 16, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

The comments of these bloggers prove the point of the initial questions, teacher have preconceived notions about students.

This tragedy at VA Tech is going to interesting when that FACTS come out. SET I wonder what the IQ of this perpetrator was. Please take your hogwash theories to your outhouse.

By Koz

April 16, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

Scott you are not explaining your numbers. A greater number of whites are on welfare first because there are more white people in this country.

Second because Welfare is not just Food Stamps and Housing assistance. It also includes medicare/medicaid, head start, survivors and disability insurance and more.

So if want to deal with facts then come correct.

By Teacher Not For Long

April 16, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

Scott, I am indeed dealing with the facts. There may be one or two here making sweeping generalizations, but that is not the majority. I teach at a school where the vasy majority of students are black. Our school has more problems than most in the APS System. We are actually DISCOURAGED from heavy discipline! I love teaching. I love the look on my student’s face when they “get” it. But my current situation is one of loss. Our priciple is black, and was offered an astounding salary to make our numbers more appealing. Our numbers stink worse than ever before. This is an esteemed educator who wants nothing more than to see these kids flourish. But we aren’t ALLOWED to teach them the things their parents refuse to. If we do, we are picking on them because they are black. Even though our principle is also. I just want parents to take an interest in this. Instead they make sure their kids show up to school in outfits that cost upwards of $200 and then neglect to provide the simplest of neccessities for them! I want to stay, but I fear my blood pressure would finally get the better of me. I am afraid I have reached the point when another system is my only choice. The really sad thing? I can leave for something better, these kids cannot. And no one seems to give a damn.

By Imam

April 16, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

the black community as a whole is responsible. I look at the muslim community and the good muslims should be standing up constantly and denouncing the bad muslims that are negative affecting them as a whole. and the same is true of the black community, but that’s not possible, look at Bill Cosby, denounced for ‘airing our dirty laundry in public’, how dumb is that, the man is trying to help bring positive change. and no doubt he was called an oreo, too for his saintly efforts. but to call anyone that disagrees with you an ‘Imus’, that’s just more of the same bs, to tell people you don’t even know, that they don’t associate with black people, more bs. there are exceptions to every rule, and not all blacks are the same, that’s why I want racial unity more than ever, for all the black people that I’ve met in my life that have truly been outstanding individuals, they don’t deserve what is coming out of the majority of the black community. the black community needs to get it’s act together before no one cares about them at all. they are alienating everyone. all ethnic groups are wary of blacks because of the horrible attitude and behavior of the majority of that community. try something new, try not blaming, try reaching out, try forgiveness, try tolerance, try to look past jerks like Imus and let them bury themselves, or just don’t listen to them. free speech for all is very important, and what’s more important? all the awesome people that I have met in my life that just happened to be black, do it for them, they deserve it.

By Ms Writer

April 16, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

Thank you Scott

By Ashleigh

April 16, 2007 1:05 PM | Link to this

The comments on this blog are sad…Yes, the AFAM community does have issues that need to be resloved.

But, I bet all the money in the world that the VTECH shooter is white. As horrible as you all think black parents are, their kids don’t too much run around shooting their classmates, blowing up government buildings or killing innocent Amish girls…Nope, those were all white people

By Quit whining

April 16, 2007 1:05 PM | Link to this

Nobody said blacks are the only ones who listen to rap, end up on welfare or do drugs. I will say now that the typical black person is more likely to be arrested on drug charges or receive welfare benefits. Those are cold hard statistics, not my interpretation of African-Americans on TV—-those being far outnumbered by the number of African-Americans I have seen while living ITP for about 25 years.

Scott, if you don’t understand the difference between “median” and “average” your advanced degree is from Mailbox U. Hope your kids are getting more from their education than you did.

By Tommy Jefferson

April 16, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this

free speech is important, justlike this blog, and Imus should still be on the radio, and Farrakhan should still be able to speak his mind, too. usually these idiots just wind up shooting themselves in the foot with the words and just wind hurting their cause more than helping it, both sides are important to hear so that a rational decision can be made. free speech is great and is one the main things that makes this country great, if free speech wasn’t so good, Bush wouldn’t be against it!

By Corey

April 16, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this

Amen, Quit Whining!(10:15AM Post) As a black man I would love to invite you to dinner. Thank you very much! My fellow black brothers and sisters, when in the HE#@ are we going to stop ignoring this big azz elephant(self-inflicted black social ills)in the room? It’s sad to say, but decent blacks have become too afraid of blacks who have no sense of self decency. Try speaking to a black person about unacceptable behavior in public, and you may get shot. I was on a MARTA bus a couple weeks ago in Buckhead and commented, under my breath, about a man who was drinking a forty-ounce of malt liquor - on the bus - and leaving his trash on the bus. The woman in front of me turned around and cursed me out and physically threatened me for commenting about the man who happened to her relative. The bus driver threw her off the bus. This is but one example of what I often experience as a black man with a sense of deceny from my own people.

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

Who the hell owns BET Scott?

By Calvin

April 16, 2007 1:09 PM | Link to this

The racist assertion disturbs me quite frankly. I would be more concerned about the impact of the internalized racism that the prospects of lower the standard would generate. To make that sort of correlation is absurd and inflammatory. This story does not deserve any credence in my opinion, as Gwinnett County will lower the standard in general for a group of people if they pursue this. Hold all people accountable. Don’t give in to an attempt on the part of some officials and parents to avert the manifestations of questionable parenting on the school system. Discipline still begins in the home. Kids extend that behavior into other aspects of society. I’ve worked in different school systems around the country and I must say that it has been my experience that this phenomenon is present all around.

By MBW

April 16, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

Rules must be enforced. It’s the only way a school can maintain order.

I am a white male, and I taught in a school where there were not any white students…and to maintain order in the classroom, I had to enforce the rules (even though I was clearly aware of the race difference between me and my student.

Sure, there were times when students would accuse me of being racist for enforcing the rules, but most students understood that I had obligations to try to maintain order and discipline and were appreciative of it.

Indeed, I think it is discriminatory to relax the rules because some people believe “Oh, well, these black kids can’t behave anyway so let’s relax the rules” . It’s simply wrong.

In the school where I taught (which was 99.9% black), there were plenty of students who COULD behave….just like at any other school.

Lowering the expectations for groups of students only encourages bad behavior and does not benefit anyone.

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

Ashleigh, the difference is we are not making excuses you big dummy. Wake UP!!!!!!

By scott

April 16, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

Koz, I came correct, I said based on pure numbers there are more whites on welfare, and that is the FACT. I know the percentages, but based on actual $$$, who is getting the most welfare money?

Do not let me get started on legal and illegal “white collar” crime like the CEO of Enron or the CEO of United Healthcare whose entire compensation package for 1 year (notice I did not say salary) was over 1 Billon dollars (did I stutter). These are the issues that effect everyday people whether it is by job loss, retirement funds placed in jeopardy, or the high cost of health care.

Koz, lets get real and identify the real ills of society if you would like. I am not one that glosses over everything and try to place all of societal blames on one group of persons.

Ignorace is bliss.

By MBW

April 16, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this

It is purely racist to relax the rules on minorities. By doing so, you are saying, in effect, that minority students cannot behave. In my time as a teacher, I have found that behavior is more related to a child’s home situation….and not directly connected to race.

Lowering the expectations for student behavior does not solve the problem….it just reduces what is reported on paper.

By Koz

April 16, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this

Ashleigh the reason you don’t hear about black shooters as often as white shooters is because killing happens so often in the black community that there is no reason to report it everyday, it’s not news anymore.

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this

How stupid would it be if I blamed today’s shooting on something that occured many many decades ago to someone else?

Would that be an excuse?

By Idi Amin

April 16, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

I killed more people than all of them crazy crackers in the U.S., and most of them were black, too! my good buddy Charles Taylor, he’s made me proud, too.

bottom line, there will always people the weirdos, the freaks, the people on the fringes, but they will always, no matter what ethnic group, will be a small minority. evil has no color, no shoe size, standard birthplace, there are awful people in every group, and trying to pin evil on only one group is more bs, more blame, more victim mentality, more exaggerated self-righteousness, stop the attacks, move more towards the center, and remember, if it’s really hard to do, chances are, it’s the right thing to do.

By Jesse's Girl

April 16, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

Out of curiosity TNFL…what kinds of threats have you encountered? I am very sorry for your situation. I don’t teach…definitely not one of my gifts…so I hold all teachers in the highest regard. (the good ones anyway) Your story is very sad. I hope you find a place where the student body and the system allow you to do your job.

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 1:20 PM | Link to this

Hey Scott, they also got sentenced to long prison terms……just like if a black person would have been found guilty.

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 1:20 PM | Link to this

Ignorance is Scott

By scott

April 16, 2007 1:21 PM | Link to this

Quit whining, when I was aceing Quantative Methods, Statics, Global Logistics, and Corporate Finance, I believe I did come across, mean and median in the preface of the books. Do not worry, my kids will be just fine as long as they do not come across bias teachers cut from your cloth. They know how to speak up for themselves, but then they will be a “discipline” problem when a teacher tries to access them by the preconceived notions so many have of black students.

Sorry, I missed your degree qualifications, you seem to be familiar with the pay your money and receive your degree in the mail kind.

By Cletus Snow

April 16, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

Altering the rules for minorities is not new,it has shown little success in the past why would it work now.How would you feel if told you are entirely too stupid to follow the rules so we’ll change them for you.I cannot believe this crap.

By V for Vendetta

April 16, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

Sheesh Scott, all those masters degrees and you can barely write in complete sentences. Congrats!

And Scott, let’s not even remotely BEGIN to link anything we are talking about here with what is going on at Virginia Tech. The situation up there is terrible and it deserves our attention, sorrow, and respect. It does not need half @ss remarks trying to guess the perps race or religion. It doesn’t matter what he looks like or what he believes in, he was obviously insane.

I hope this puts things in perspective for a lot of people on here. No matter what we have to argue about on any given day, it pales in comparison to the horrible acts that are possible. I’m sure we will be having some sort of assinine “school safety” blog tomorrow or the day after, but screw that.

There’s no answer, nor is there a solution for, something like this.

By Teacher, Too

April 16, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this

Whatis interesting is that black teachers can discipline black students in a way that white teachers cannot. Thus, you probably have more white teachers writing up black kids than black teachers. I teach in a majority black school (65%) - and I cringe when I hear the way that some of the black teachers talk to the kids. If I ever did that, I would be called many things, racist being the least of it.

Another thing to consider is that some teachers are much stricter than others. I know I fall into the “stricter” category. My students are not allowed to chew gum, eat candy, drink soda/sports drinks during class. I expect students to behave respectfully and mind the rules that have been posted since the beginning of school. Consequences are assigned if students do not. However, I also let parents know what I expect in my classroom. I establish a rapport with parents and e-mail them on a regular basis. Of course, there are those parents who regularly say that I am the only one who has any trouble with their child, or constantly deny that their child would ever behave in such a manner.

One thing to note, though. I teach in the gifted program, so my students are those who are generally concerned with their grades and want to excel in school.

Finally, I know people say that white kids buy 80% of the rap music. However, I see most of the black kids in my school with rapper t-shirts, listening to rap music on their I-Pods, and dressing like rappers. And if you think they don’t use inappropriate language like the coarser rappers do, then you are sadly mistaken. Some parents say they don’t buy that music for their kids or don’t use that kind of language at home- but the kids are learning it from somewhere. Personally, I think student behavior can be correlated to the music, videos, and general trash found on television/movies. I went to an integrated middle school/high school in the late 70s and early 80s, and I don’t remember seeing the behavior that kids today promote.

By scott

April 16, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this

Clearthinking,

It seems like every month some county, Fulton included, is writing a $1 million dollar check for a wrongly imprisoned black man.

I have to go, I could spend all day answering the ignorance on the blog. Here is some advice, take a good look in the mirror.

P.S. Viacom owns BET

MS. Writer, you are welcome.

Have a good day.

By SharonH

April 16, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this

Nationally, there is a tendency to treat Black crimes differently from Whites. Right here in Atlanta when those two girls robbed the bank, right away the media dubbed them “Barbie bandits” and “hotties”. Real-life ho Lisa Taylor was treated to an interview with Monica Kaufman and the AJC did a pictorial spread of her lair. For sure, if those two low-lifes had been a different race there is no way they would have been treated like that.

Not only that, we see cases like the 6-year old in Florida who was handcuffed and taken to jail for throwing a temper tantrum, the 14-year old who was sentenced to 7 years in prison for pushing a hall monitor while the same judge sentenced a 14 year old White girl to probation for arson.

As far as I’m concerned Gwinnett County does not deserve the benefit of our doubt that they will act fairly when punishing Black or Hispanic students versus White students. And some of the comments on this blog shore up that opinion.

Not only that, I’ve been a student. White misbehavior was often treated as kids being kids while Black misbehavior was criminalized and not tolerated as well.

No one is saying that the rules should be relazed for minority students. only that they should not be relaxed for White students.

By Bea

April 16, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

I’ve worked in the education and I must tell you that “all” children have had their fair share of problems. Unfortunately most of the reporting of problems does seem to be on children of color and yes a lot of the reporting isn’t as fair as we would like. We (educators) are aware that sometimes it’s hard for some teachers to separate their personal feelings toward certain groups of people but it is something that we must constantly challenge ourselves to do on a daily basis. If not then good students would be targeted for discipline for things that really have nothing to do with them. It’s not perfect. Teachers are not perfect. Students are not perfect. Parents are too not perfect. What’s more important is that we all work together as a team to ensure fairness across the board for all children regardless of race.

By Mick

April 16, 2007 1:33 PM | Link to this

get real, you have to put racial problems squarely on black people. I can tell you as a white guy, yes, I’m the epitome of all evil, suprising, too cause my parents seemed like really good people, but anyway, blacks won’t let us get along with them, many of us have tried and many of us are now giving up, blogs like this are our last hope, but before long, all white people, including the good ones, and yes there are good white people, I have pictures to prove it, but before long, all ethnic groups will start to turn a deaf ear to the needs of the black community, please see this future event and try to do something now within the black community while we still have a chance, because before long, even the race card is gonna become irrelevant. if the race card is used until it is all used up, it will be too late then, it has to be thrown away while it still has value, so that others can see that black people made a positive choice on their own, that they are sincere about improving race realtions. but to use it until it is all used up, people will only think you came to them because you had no choice because your race card expired, then they won’t want anything to do with ya because they will remember the injustice of the punishment they received at the hands of the race card.

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

Get real SharonH

By Mr Crow

April 16, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

The only reason white kids are reported to buy 80% of Rap music is because black kids get bootleg CD’s.

By Mick

April 16, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

no….teach your children not to speak up for themselves, teach them to act with dignity and fairness and kindness, and many times, they won’t even need to speak up for themselves.

By scott

April 16, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

One last note for V, this is a blog not a dissertation so I like many others are typing on the fly. However, when it gets down to the “nitty-gritty” I can write and get published as well as anyone else.

The point that I and others are making about VA Tech is that it will be interesting when the FACTS come out. The topic today is about discipline and how everyone is saying how bad all the black kids are. We are just wondering who the shooter is?

P.S., the first time I saw drugs in my “well to do” good neighborhood high school was from a white male who informed me that he smokes weed with his dad. (Probably listening to rap music also). That is my personal experience with discipline.

Had to answer that one last retort.

By Finnerty

April 16, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

at least the black guys get apology checks, me and the LaCrosse team just get our reputations tarnished, and our accusers are not held accountable and the Black Panther Party still hasn’t acknowledged their mistake and I’m holding my breath ‘til their apology gets here.

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this

Thanks Scott, now I know to send my formal complaint to Viacom for the prejeduce approach to doing business. Fair is only fair.

By Quit whining

April 16, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

I guess scott sure, did, tell me a thing or, two.

By V for Vendetta

April 16, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

Mick, what are you, like 12 years old? Refrain from commenting on the blogs until you understand the concepts of commas and periods. You invalidate everything we say by painting an ignorant and biased picture of white people. Thanks, well done.

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

Scott, I was not thinking about insulting your grammer or anything, just your point of view and opinions, which are completely screwed up and bias.

By who knew

April 16, 2007 1:45 PM | Link to this

It sounds as if the school system is trying to use an accounting practice to make it seem as if it doesn’t have a problem within the county as a whole not just at schools where minorities are the majority-( can you say funding). As for the rest of the comments with regards to race and the discipling of minority and white kids, the reins should be tighter on black kids. I hate to say it, but minorities are always under the microscope and I can say that as an Afro-American we are constantly being viewed by all other ethinic groups not just whites. And until we get to a postition where we realize that stern discipline is required for those who consistantly break the rules whether black, white , asian or hispanic the problems in schools and society are only going tho get worse. Because bad behavior has a way of transcending all divides.

By Pale Face

April 16, 2007 1:46 PM | Link to this

I’m white, I own guns, am I a disgrace to my race? I have never once felt the urge to go to a school and start shooting, what’s wrong with me?

By sp

April 16, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this

grammar - haha

By saw it on the news

April 16, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

I just heard an interview on MSNBC with a student who was shot in class at Va Tech. He said the shooter was an Asian male.

My first thought was I guess that came as a huge relief to the American Muslim community who were surely praying that he not be Muslim.

Can we really still be debating race relations in America when we have so many other problems? It seems like that one should have been solved some time ago. Lets move on, shall we?

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this

Here is a perfect example of black and white punishment in school. This was around 1996 in a predominantly white school. I got into a fight with a black guy (b/c he was being a racist), which in turn we both ended up in the principles office. I was suspended for 3 days and he was suspended for 1 day. Fair? Story gets better. On the 2nd day, the guy and his “gang” decided it was time for payback and all came to school (only he attended) to beat me up or kill me..who knows. He was stopped while entering the school with his gang and was “expelled” because he had a bat on him, which was a weapon. I never saw or heard from him again, other than 1 coach informing me that he came back with his gang to come after me.

Guess what: He got special treatment on being a racist and for fighting, but shot himself in the foot and got “himself” expelled from Gwinnett County schools.

By concerned

April 16, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this

It is a fact that Gwinnett administrators are being “encouraged” to hire more minorities even if the qualifications do not back up the hire.

Teen pregnancy rate is higher in minorities also. Is that the schools fault too?

By D

April 16, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this

aw, shucks, V, ya just need a hug, sweetie, there, there..

oh yeah, I almost forgot: ,./?”)=\%&! don’t want to leave out my punkshewayshuns and I just turned 13 yesterday, had some cake, some ice cream, didn’t ya get your invite, Bro?

By wow

April 16, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this

blaming whitey for the Va Tech shootings before knowing the truth, says volumes about the comments on this blog and the state of race realtions in this country, how truly, truly sad.

By DwayneL

April 16, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

If the majority of minority children are violating the rules, then they should be punished. The idea of changing discipline based on a person’s color is totally & completely insane!!! Get a clue people and quit with the politically correct CRAP!!!

By Ms. Smith

April 16, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this

In addition to the fact that the majority of students in the county are minorities here’s another issue: the fact that more often than one would think (or GCPS would like to admit) White teachers/administrators view ANY group of Black/Hispanic kids with white T-Shirts as a gang (I have witnessed the call being made over the walkie-talkie myself, too many times) regardless of who these students may actually be. The only thing that matters at that time is that they are wearing the same color (even though by chance) and are students of color.

I have also witnessed White girls with mini skirts walk past administrators without receiving any attention, while the same skirt on a Black or Hispanic student results in ISS (or worse).

It is true that not everything is racially motivated nor is everything a racial conspiracy; and I agree with everyone who says that rules are rules. However I have witnessed TOO MANY situations where non-minority students were NOT disciplined at all for the exact same things that non-minority students are crucified for.

People (even teachers) have unconscious biases that they don’t know, don’t care and don’t want to address. Unless these issues are addressed as a whole within the county (they can start with hiring more minority teachers in schools with large minority populations) this phenomenon will not only continue, it will get worse.

By V for Vendetta

April 16, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

Mickey D, you sure are worthless, just a little whining baby, no where near as qualified as I am to blog this site, go home til you can be my equal, wimpo.

By Mickey D

April 16, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

V you sure are cute when you’re angry, bet ya got a right purdy mouth on ya too.

By David

April 16, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

I’m black, I’m black, you are racist ….

That’s the everyday comment from the black community. Give up the cross, someone else needs the wood.

move on

By V for Vendetta

April 16, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

now you’re just sounding like a homo Mickey D!

By Mickey D

April 16, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

nope, I just had sex with another man last night and I really didn’t like it, so I know I’m not gay.

By Logic

April 16, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

Clearlythinking do you really think your views help? How are any of your views gonna resolve anything? Do you really believe you are thinking clearly?

By Ashleigh

April 16, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

Ashleigh, the difference is we are not making excuses you big dummy. Wake UP!!!!!!

**No, clearthinking. The difference is that I can get my point across without calling you outside of your name (Imagine such sophistication for an AFAM)!

Another difference is that you all make excuses for your children’s behavior everyday. I promise you that I have seen more white kids disrespect and curse their parents than I have ever seen a black child do. My parents and the majority of AFAM parents that I know demand respect from their children. You all will allow your children to disrespect you to your face! Black kids are trained better than that. Yes, there are black kids that are disrespectful to teachers and administrators, but there are many white kids who are just as ugly to their parents.**

By Koz

Ashleigh the reason you don’t hear about black shooters as often as white shooters is because killing happens so often in the black community that there is no reason to report it everyday, it’s not news anymore.

**No, Koz. You don’t hear about it as much because, while black people do kill each other, it’s definitely not in mass numbers. But it’s becoming the norm for a young, white, middle-class male to kill 10, 20, 30 people at a time. And then the media asks, “What went wrong? Boo-hoo!

The truth is that you only hear about the white shootings is because most of the victims are white and that’s who the media cares about- white people. I am not playing the race card- this is the truth and anyone would be blind to deny it. A little white girl and a little black girl are kidnapped on the same day. Whose picture do you see plastered on TODAY, Good Morning, etc.? Natalie Holloway…Not the black girl. A young black woman is found dead with a baby still in her womb. Do we hear about it? No, because Lacey Peterson’s face is all over the TV!**

I make excuses for no one, but I wish you all would step outside of your little bubbles and realize that your experience and how you are does not apply to others…

By Scott Case

April 16, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

Since when did abortion and divorce become crimes. Whites divorce more because they actually get married. Whites have more abortions because they can’t afford to take care of their kids. Maybe black folks should start having abortions instead of continually downloading kids with no future. Also, my mom loves it when she tells a black kid to be quiet and then the mom calls and says she is racist. Come to think of it, I think my mom is a Nazi.

By two words

April 16, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

The kidnapped victims appear on TV b/c their parents and family force it. they don’t just sit back and hope someone does something for them.

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

I think what is even scarier is the fact that the average white person or even no white person has never seen a “keep it real” “black” neighborhood and what goes on at these low rent apartments and community housing projects. Well, I have and it is damn scary…kids hanging around selling drugs (day and night), half dressed drug addict prostitutes sleeping on the floors, 3 to 4 year old kids who have seen more crime and drugs than I will see in a lifetime.

By quantavious aka Juicy

April 16, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

Even if this shooter turns out to be white it will not change the “discipline problems” in public schools. But go on and look for anything to make things seem more equal - but it is not. The blacks quiet simply should be embarrassed.

By Mary

April 16, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

yes, the race card is expiring soon, and I hear there will be no renewal.

By Stacey

April 16, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

I’ve been out of high school nearly 20 years, there was very often a difference in the punishment of black & white students for the same offenses. My high school had apprx 1000 students (give or take 50)with 55% white, 45% black and a total of 6 students categorized as “other” during my senior year.

For the sake of this argument, I will only talk about fighting (no weapons involved). I will be the first to admit that the 80% of the fights were between black females. In those cases, the automatic discipline for 1st time offenders was 4 days out of school suspension. Repeat offenders received longer suspensions - up to expulsion for the remainder of the school year.

For the same offense, white students very rarely received out of school suspension. Probably 90% of the white offenders were male and their discipline almost always consisted of either 2 days in school suspension or 5 days after school detention. Only repeat offenders received out of school suspensions. For the record, black male athletes generally received the same punishment was white males.

By luvs2teach

April 16, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

OK - kids are at connections…

Our conversation carried on for awhile after I initally posted, and it was really interesting to get the kids’ perspectives. For the record (since I can tell from the posts there are a lot of newbies here today), I teach 8th grade at a diverse suburban middle school. My homeroom of 24 is a mix of Euro-, African-, and Asian-American as well as ESOL students from Japan, Nepal, Brazil, and Mexico. I have gifted as well as special ed.

Many kids (of all races) felt like the black kids sometimes brought it on themselves by arguing. I brought up the idea of body language - that even though your words were respectful, your body was saying something else - this was news to a lot of my kids! The Asain kids were particularly attuned to this, though.

We talked about the Chris Rock video “How to Talk to the Police” - let’s face it, a lot of the accepted behavior in our society is based on middle class values, and folks in poverty don’t learn these “hidden rules” no matter what color they are. Ruby Payne’s research in this area is enlightening - a lot of what a middle class person would see as disrespect is actually saving face - and could be handled better. You see this whether the student is black or white - it’s the generational poverty that makes the difference.

The black kids said they were definitely under pressure from some of their peers not to conform because some considering it “acting white” (believe me - I was as shocked as the next guy to hear my kids actually talk about this!).

Most of my kids, though, want a good classroom to learn in - they HATE it when a teacher doesn’t have control of a class. When I taught at a predominately black school, the kids got just as frustrated at the misbehaviors - most wanted to learn.

Interestly, my black kids were insulted at the thought of lesser penalties for their misbehavior, “What y’all think we don’t know how to behave?” was one quote.

I asked them if they thought their teachers were racist - they said, for the most part, no - it was more society that they felt was racist. “Teachers are teachers” was the quote, and I think they meant that, no matter what color, teachers were part of the structure of school (inherently a white structure, perhaps? I don’t know - we didn’t get that far).

Finally, this was something my husband and I were talking about recently (he has a lot of black co-workers and they discuss this stuff a lot - they know I’m a teacher so they often get into discussions about school). Anyway, we were discussing this idea of living in the past and righting past wrongs…I think what a lot of African-Americans fail to consider as one reason that many white Americans today don’t see a need to live in the past and really want to move on, is that most of us come from an immigrant heritage - not only were our ancestors NOT a part of the terrible things going on in this country, but they emmigrated here because of a variety of persecutions of their own. Once here, they faced discrimination, too. I know it can’t be equated with being enslaved, but I also know that there is a sense of “I’m not to blame - my folks had it rough, too.”

Just food for thought.

By JanarvioDemarioMarquisimoshuntavious

April 16, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

I am Embarrassed for anyone that continues to use race as an excuse. Blah blah blah, how pathetic. Blog about reverse racism.

By notsosurprisedIguess

April 16, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

After reading these posts, the surprising revelation to me is how many blacks who blog here (and seem to be articulate, educated, and capable of critical analysis) also seem to genuinely believe there is no problem in the black community that does not exist in equal part in the white community.

Do you really not see what we and the rest of the world see when we read the paper, watch the news, walk into our children’s schools, walk around in the mall, or any public square, compare acheivement statistics, crime statistics, poverty statistics, etc., etc., etc.?

Or is it just bravado because you are so angry and embarrassed that other posters are laying their feelings on the matter bare?

By young lady

April 16, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

War Eagle If you dint read the topic right let me refrase it for you..It states minorities in general…NOT ILLEGALS….I believe every race has its good and bad apples..You say that whites are more civil I can find plenty of situations where they are not… DO we need to bring up the school shooting..havent really seen any miniorties commit them…So I think that everyone is the same. YES IF YOU DO THE CRIME YOU DO THE TIME…NO MATTER THE RACE>>>

By claude

April 16, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

smile, have a blessed day, smile

By Claude

April 16, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

Well said notsosurprisedIguess

By Jeff

April 16, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this

younglady:

The reason blacks don’t go after you at school is two fold:

A) Many of them skip anyway.

B) They’ll shoot you just about anywhere else, INCLDUING church…. they just don’t want to be anywhere NEAR a school for fear that they will be told to get in class!

By love jones 4

April 16, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

SET: Are you brain-dead or just hopelessly an ideologue who spouts out Republican mantra? Citing Charles Murray’s “Bell Curve,” which has been derided in most higher academic circles as racist nonsense? Naming idiots like “Uncle” Thomas Sowell as reading sources and references? No thanks, I prefer the truth. And your example of saying the AJC provides blog forums like this to get the real truth? That’s inane — all you get in here are idiotic statements and ramblings. And Affirmative Action dead? Have you seen the Bush Administration? Don’t make me laugh. President Sh*t for Brains was a legacy who got propped up and passed through school. Then, after failing his way as owner of oil interests and a baseball team, failed upwards to president with Karl Rove as his brain. And did you see that where Bill Maher reported that a majority of lawyers working within the Justice Department were from Pat Robertson’s law school, which barely rates in the rankings at U.S. News and World Report? Affirmative Action for stupid Republicans is indeed alive and going strong.

By In the Middle

April 16, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

From reading the posts, it seems that everyone is speaking about extremes of the spectrum. All or even most black people don’t live in poverty, some do, but they should not be the determinant of how an entire race acts.

Are there problems in the Black community? Yes

Are there problems in the White community? Yes

Are there good things happening the Black Community? Yes

Are there god things happening in the white community? Yes

I beleive numbers would point to it being more of a class issue than race.

By Mary

April 16, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

great points luvs2. but the answer that teachers mostly weren’t racist but society was, aren’t teachers part of society, that answer seems a little suspect. like a way to blame without blaming you to your face, still with the victim mentality and everybody is out to get us kinda thing. seems like blacks need to learn something that many others of us have already learned, and that is, yes, the world is pretty much out to get you. yes, it will swallow you up if you let it. and that’s why to make it in life the best defense is a good offense. definitely good to teach body language and I learned something today, too, that sometimes it’s not all disrespect, but saving face, and we shouldn’t be so quick to bow up at what we initially see as disrespect. a lot of bad body language and disrespectful tone comes from being taught basic manners. I see so many black men on tv today constantly licking their lips during what should be important interviews, it just seems like manners aren’t being taught, the tongue stays in the mouth, in public. just like chewing with mouth closed and not talking with your mouth open, and these issues go across the board with younger people. parenting has gotten slack in all communities. today parents take twice as much credit for being a parent and put in half as much work, unlike my parents that did twice as much work and took half the credit. and it doesn’t help that parents are sticking up for there kids even when they are wrong, more and more today.

By Me

April 16, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

This is getting out of hand. I can’t stand the race card. I am moving out of Georgia. I am sick and tired of race being a factor.

By Marcus

April 16, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

‘young lady’, whites are more passive and blacks know it, and white people don’t seem to stick together much either, and blacks know it. I would much rather have to try to resolve an sticky issue with a white group than a black group. by allowing this race card thing, Sharpton, Jackson, etc. and then on the other hand aloowing Pryorr, Rock, Murphy, Chappelle, etc. just shows how big of a pushover the white community has been. but that’s not working and the white people are growing tired of the false abuse. it’s time for all AfAm to wake up and get involved in a positive way.

By scott

April 16, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

It appears all we can do on this blog is to agree to disagree. A sad state of affairs, but a portrait of what this country has become; a dvided nation along race, class, color, gender, and orientation lines. Everybody believes they are right, so how can anybody be wrong. The more things change, the more they remain the same. This is why China will emerge as the leader of the 21st century as we leave our children a tattered heritage.

By young lady

April 16, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

* JEFF* I have to say your response made me giggle. Like I said before we have good, bad, and even sour apples in every race. I believe race should not be an issue when it comes to discipline. Everyone should be tuaght to respect and follow the rules regarless.

By catlady

April 16, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

At our school it is ALL minorities getting into trouble. No, not RACIAL minorities, but the minority of students brought up like animals with no disciple, direction, or real adults in the home. Their skin colors may be different, but they are all the minority that acts like they can do anything they want, that the world should dance to their tune. I think if we dealt consistently, severely, and immediately with this minority we would be much more successful in teaching the majority of kids who have some concept of civilized behavior.

By Ms Writer

April 16, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

The kids who died today were probably of every race and pain is universal…the sooner we start thinking American and not black and white (both sides) the sooner we can present a unified front to the world.

By vaneesa

April 16, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

Bridget Reading the topic makes me laugh. I believe disciplineing each race differenlty is racist itself. Tell me how do you choose the the grade of discipline each person recieves. I am hispanic and I know write from wrong. I see all this gang members from my race and just look at them in disgust. * IT ALL HAS TO DO WITH PARENTS * The way you are brought up is the way you will be.

By Mick

April 16, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

definitely got that right, the biggest outside threat to this country is China, then Latin and South America, and then, believe it or not, this Muslim terrorist thing is a distant 3rd, it’s just another boogey man like drugs to scare us with so control and manipulation over us can be tightened.

By Jeff

April 16, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

younglady:

glad to see you got the humor. Just note that I was being half serious, about the anywhere else part anyway. Honestly as far as skipping it was about equal among the races, at least as I saw it.

By Judi

April 16, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

To Scott? REthink your numbers. There may be more whites on welfare because there ARE more whites! Get real. The present census numbers show that the general population of the US is 11% black, 13% hispanic, 43% white and the other percentages are of many mixed races. If you then go to welfare numbers, you will see that MUCH more than 11% of the welfare recepients are black. Sharpton, Jackson, et al, NEVER bring up THOSE numbers. The same thing goes for the prison populations. Only 11% of the general population is black, but the majority of the prison population is black. The black community needs to begin to police their own. Teach them to respect themselves AND others. Teach them discipline. Teach them that education will better their lives. Teach them ANYTHING useful…..get over the “I am persecuted”. Everyone has a hard life in one way or another. It is what you do with it that makes you a productive citizen. Personally, I am tired of paying taxes to support all of you.

By Mick

April 16, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

definitely Ms. Writer! it’s the melting pot that many of the ingredients just won’t mix into.very sad. but once again, if I could, I would definitely like to see anyone that says anything about race for any reason for the next 5 years receive an electric shock. it’s terrible to think humans have to be treated like rats, but sometimes we are the smartest animals on earth , while still acting like the dumbest. you know the other animals just look at us sometimes and think, ‘what is with those damn humans’.

By Whitey

April 16, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

I was taught not to be disrespectful by my parents. I was taught that education is important by my parents. I was taught that I am responsible for me by my parents. I was taught a work ethic by my parents.

By Mary

April 16, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

the victim mentality, the punish whitey mentality and that so-called art at City Hall East ALL need to go in the dumpster out back!

By catlady

April 16, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

When we lived in Athens several years ago, black kids largely had a free pass on discipline issues, to a large extent. Everyone was so afraid of the race card, and could not bear to expect more of those “poor, fatherless children”, so the middle class black and white families put their kids into private schools. I hope that has changed. I witnessed a black boy strike and stomp the white female security guard, and the principal blamed the guard and said she didn’t handle it correctly. At that point, I knew I had to take my kids away from there.

By I too

April 16, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

Was taught not to be disrespectful by my parents! I was taught that education is important by my parents. I was taught that I am responsible for me by my parents. I was taught a work ethic by my parents. I was taught by my parents not peers. Teachers merely were facilitators of my life process! I am thankful I had a mother and father to guide me and teach me manners and respect for myself and others.

By catlady

April 16, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this

Addendum to my 3:04 post: since we do not have control of this minority (and don’t seem to want to, by looking at GCPS), it is getting to be larger and larger. Especially as the better-disciplined, more serious students are home schooled or put into private school.

By white flight

April 16, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

“The white flight” has happened all around Georgia for several years. School boards have to hustle and move students around by rezoning because no one is honest enough to admit that test scores will be affected and that there will be discipline problems and a decline in property values. Seems the current trend is to move westward, OOOPS! sorry the secret is out now

By Ms Writer

April 16, 2007 3:31 PM | Link to this

Scott —- that is true, it’s back and forth with adults insulting each other…we are all American and regardless of the issues of the individual race-the actions of a few effect ALL of us…We are a poor example of what this country stands for.

Whites:Have you tried to befriend one of those young black men that you see on the corner?

Blacks: Have you tried to do the same?

I doubt either side can say yes.

The world is looking at us and laughing—and the hateful are preparing to destroy us.

By Claude

April 16, 2007 3:37 PM | Link to this

It truly does come down to putting your child(ren) in private school, It is costly but A HUGE INVESTMENT. Being in an environment where education is valued makes a big difference, Well! All the difference. Let these ignorant bloggers have at it. Sad but we may have to explain one day that the gap between the haves and have nots was a choice.

By Mick

April 16, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

right catlady, and with discipline lacking the affluent will move their children to private schools and home school, then they will say ‘why do we need public education, can’t we just give them a education voucher or maybe they can manage their children’s education money through the stock market’, stupid crap like that, and then the middle class and poor are left even farther out in the cold. more reason for everybody to get with the program right now, before it’s too late. race is such a stupid issue, there are so many more important things we should be worrying about, like how our government is damn near broken and is screwing most of us, but not race. I heard a comedian once say that he thought racism was stupid, and after the crowd loudly applauded, he said because there are so many reasons to dislike a person on an individual basis, why would we even need to go so far as race.

By Teacher Not For Long

April 16, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

@ Jesse’s Girl, I have been hit several times. Usually with a slap in the face. Pushing seems to be a favorite as well. Hard, passing shoulder bumps in the hall are popular too. I have had horrible messages left on my phone. It got really bad after I had the balls to report two students for having sex in the library. Also one of our more popular black female students who is serious about her academic career, was beaten up because she chose to date a white boy from a different school. I just can’t understand this violent mindset. These kids need a good old fashioned butt kicking. What is so sad is that I have several black students who are gifted, seriously gifted. Yet they choose to play dumb and fail just so their less motivated peers don’t think of them as white. Its pitiful.

By scott

April 16, 2007 3:45 PM | Link to this

Judi, You are not supporting me, you are supporting all of the whites on welfare. I know the percentages, I am talking about raw numbers, as I have always said. Get a life and while you are listening to your podcast of Don Imus. I bet you actually believe the white house “accidently” deleted all the e-mails associated with the Justice department firings.

Take your bias opinions elsewhere, I pray that you are not a school teacher hurting young students with your preconceived notions about them.

By Mick

April 16, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

there are many parallels between Rome and the USA. Rome fell in many ways because of uncontrolled immigration, no one really felt Roman anymore, no one had a stake in the country that was. and infighting, and corruption and basing it’s economy on the military industrialists and war. with Republicans running around like Kevin Bacon in Animal House during the street riot yelling ‘all is well, all is well’ and the Democrats too splintered to come to a consensus about anything real, this country is in serious trouble and only people moving to the center may have a chance to save it.

By Jeff

April 16, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

TNFL:

Get out before you get physical scars to go with the emotional ones…. TRUST me on that one!

By Ms Writer

April 16, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this

Teacher not for Long: Black or White, the responsibility lies on the parents of these horrible miscreants that you have to teach - I grew up with students like that and vowed not to become a teacher unless it was at the collegiate level…You are right, when teachers could spank children, you did not have the behavior that you have today…Because people dont want to step on toes, people get away with too much….

By Magenta

April 16, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this

Ed said that the disciplinary problems continue beyond school…so true. My previous job was in a large ATL company, about 65% minority. The rules were outrageous, but the unspoken reason was, some employees could be counted on to obey the rules, or to be very careful when breaking them. The larger segment of the employee population had the attitude that they were not at work to actually work, but to have loud marathon cell phone sessions, to socialize endlessly in the break room, to use paid work time for running errands (arrive late, leave early), invent new and creative dress codes, and then do mediocre work in the meantime. Without the rules, NOTHING would have gotten done. Productivity would have been 75% max. When rules were enforced and someone got written up or terminated, the tension in the office was like Watts in the late 1960s. The managers bent over backward not to “make waves.” It was very stressful. Currently, I’m no longer in Atlanta. There’s a lot more segregation here than I’ve seen since my early days in the work force decades ago…but frankly, it’s nice to work in an office where everyone has the same standards and values, and victimhood is almost non-existent.

By Lynnie

April 16, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

Unfortunately, many folks who are minorities nowadays (note, not ALL members of minority groups)have a tendency to expect more from authority figures, white or otherwise, because they feel as though they deserve it. With all the people asking for payment and apologies and what have you for things that happened generations ago, many feel they are entitled to a break or two because they’re great-great-great grandmother was treated badly by white people. Women of all colors were treated terribly for years and years, but you don’t see us asking for anything beyond being treated fairly by everyone. I think anyone saying that punishments are harsher for blacks/Hispanics/whatever is full of it. Some teachers might be tougher, but I’m sure they’re few and far between. Anyone screaming racism because their child was suspended needs to shut it and take a look at the kid they’re raising - and what needs to be done to turn them around.

By Mick

April 16, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this

every group of people has been crapped on at one time or another in history, that should never be the point, the point is today, now, the future, not anything that happened to somebody we didn’t even know. I guess it didn’t help any to go and pour more salt into the wounds, the name of the ship Amistad means friendship…oops but something kinda from the Bible, let the first ethnic group without sin throw the first stone…

By Quit whining

April 16, 2007 4:18 PM | Link to this

scott logic:

community “A” has 2000 people. 200 (10%)are on welfare.

Community “B” has 600 people. 200 (33 1/3%) are on welfare.

Both communities have the same severity of the problem.

What was that Alma Mater again, scott?

Y’know, if you don’t really see the difference between raw numbers and percentages, you’re either a) a slooooww thinker. b) using numbers any way you can to cover your azz when you don’t like the truth of the matter, which is that blacks are, as a group, more of a drain on society. Or c) are so blinded by the self-pity promoted by “anyone black is a victim” that you really think there isn’t a problem.

My guess is “b” if you really did take a course in statistics, even from Lame U. Although a masters doesn’t automatically give you the ability to think logically, so it could most certainly be “a”.

“c” would be the saddest of all.

By Scottean Algebra

April 16, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

ya put the numerator over da denominator which gives you your disconbubulator!

By clearthinking

April 16, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

Nothing is going to be taken away from you and nothing is going to be given to you. Take care of your own responibilities and the rest will take care of itself. Take care of today and tomorrow will fall into place!

By SA

April 16, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

Scottean Algebra blog must be read in a voice that is a cross between James Earl Jones and Foghorn Leghorn

By Ms Writer

April 16, 2007 4:32 PM | Link to this

Quit Whining:

Why use race as a gauge of who is “draining” society? America is built on capitalism - poor people drain the economy!! Stop thinking so limited…

By SET

April 16, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

Scott & Love Jones 4, I’m enjoying your posts - I’m glad you noticed mine.

Why don’t you tell us something about yourselves and your experience so the rest of the readership can understand where your point of view comes from?

I’m a former sub who has been a Criminal Lawyer for over 25 years - my parents and grandparents were teachers at various stages of their careers, as were numerous other relatives going back at least 3 generations. They taught in segregated schools - I’ve lived in CA all my life so I missed that experience. (We were part of the Black Migration to CA after WWII)

I see blacks go to prison for huge terms - in an area with 10% blacks over half the prison cases are black… Our CA 3 strike system nicely covers the crimes blacks seem to like to do, leaving out large scale drug dealing and million dollar thefts which are not strikes.

Needless to say the hapless prison remands into the now Mexican controlled CA prison system were all public school students. I’m not happy about how these kids are brought up to be prison inmates in the prison-industrial complex.

Brave New World.

By Lazr

April 16, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this

an college degree isn’t an acceptance into MENSA. as a Tech fan, it was sad to see Tech grads in our engineering dept. using their book knowledge along with a set of blinders, the people in the repair dept. were able to see and come up with more innovative ideas and correct more recurring defects, of course the corrections never were easy, if they implemented, like the common sense, hands on people who didn’t get their degrees were stepping on somebody’s toes. an education is great, but only if you can still see outside of the books.

By Bridget Needs to Quit

April 16, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

“But this is the first time I’ve seen educators openly discussing it, or willing to do something to change the pattern.” ?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Did a journalist/blogger just write that??

You need to quit! Teachers need to change the pattern? You’re not even starting a discussion - before it begins, you are stating that this disparity NEEDS to be talked about by teachers and NEEDS to be changed by teachers! NO!!!

Teachers shouldn’t even be forced to discuss this. They should be told to just worry about their safety - make sure they get home to their families okay.

Rules are rules no matter what your color, and to even hint that teachers need to sit down to figure this out and make sure that discipline frequencies match exactly to population demographics makes you look like a dunce.

“No, Johnny, you can’t hit me today b/c you’re black. Statistically speaking, I need a white kid to hit me today. Bob, you’re multiracial, so according to this form, you should be skipping school today, not you, Fred….Okay, I think the races and offences are equal this week…..”

If a certain race is getting in trouble more than others……you’re going to blame the teachers HOW????

Where’s Patti Ghezzi?

By Vicki

April 16, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

I am at school, I teach. I have been teaching 20 yrs. I teach because I believe I was given a gift to be able to reach children. I have taught rural and I have taught urban. Both schools had a high majority free lunch. Children who misbehave do so for many reasons. Children who constantly misbehave do it for one reason…no one at home cares. When I teach Black History, the Jim Crowe laws, how a little girl named Ruby Bridges was screamed at just for going to school, I cry. When I teach the Trail of Tears, I cry. My students see me cry. They know it is sad that so many people cannot see beyond color. In my room we are various shades of tan, brown and deep brown. We all have dreams and we all want the hatred to stop. Tomorrow we will all come together in my class with one goal, not to pass the dreaded CRCT but to excell, to score so high everyone will stop and say WOW! I am a strict disciplinarian, I take education seriously and my students know this. No one has the right to stop another child from learning. The parents who start the year fighting me usually end the year thanking me. It is a tough job, and today I am sad and tired. Tomorrow however we will shoot for the stars. You guys keep fighting…my kids will keep striving.

By Quit whining

April 16, 2007 4:53 PM | Link to this

“Poor” people don’t drain the economy; people who don’t work drain the economy. Statistically, that person is more likely to be black.

Unless you believe there is some connection between African ancestry and not working, then the the cause of higher rates of welfare recipients must be due to cultural causes.

You and scott seem to feel that it’s white culture that’s mainly responsible, ignoring the ability of African-Americans to affect their own status.

scott’s response should be familiar to any of the teachers on this blog who catch kids doing something wrong—“look what little white Jimmy is doing!” Who gives a %&$#! what little white Jimmy is getting away with in school, unless he’s physically assaulting you—-he’ll suffer for it later on in life by being an uncontrolled jerk. Worry about what you’re doing.

By luvs2teach

April 16, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this

Reading Homework for the class:

Blink by Malcolm Gladwell

Freakonomics by Steven Leavitt

A Framework For Understanding Poverty by Ruby Payne

Any published research by Roland Fryer

By ChrisD2

April 16, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this

Maybe it’s related to the out of wedlock births, criminal activity, lack of education, gangsta rap, and everything else that people on the left choose to ignore. Those issues would lead directly to minorities having more problems. But, nah, let’s just blame whitey and change the rules.

By Judi

April 16, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this

To Scott: Oh please, Scott, who is pathethic? Percentages? “Raw numbers”? Anyway you look at it, you still have a major problem. By the way, I have never listened to Imus. I would not THINK of listenting! However, have you ever listened to Hip Hop and Rap? Score one! Get off the computer and raise your kids right!!!!!

By SET

April 16, 2007 5:20 PM | Link to this

It’s amazing that even in public discourse some losers think that calling someone else a racist carries any water anymore…

What some people call racist others call “pattern recognition”.

If you can’t deal with a problem on the merits and defend your position you won’t get anywhere on this blog. No one has to love you. No one has to associate with you. A person belongs in Society because they are worth something to others.

That leaves the underclass and their race hustling cheerleaders out in the cold.

By Homebound Georgian

April 16, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this

“WAR EAGLE”!Am I hearing from a person that has come from ALABAMA, of all places. I am here in ALABAMA and it remains racist as ever and stuck in caveman time.I am not shocked by your comments, even the Blacks here in ALABAMA(which I am ) are prejudiced against other Blacks, go figure! Children are children, but our children are getting a bad rap from the start. Little ‘Douglas’ is afforded a call home to mom/dad while ‘DeAndre’ is put in detention or sent to the office. Where is the justice in that? We are raising kids in an unfair world anyway..why cant we give them a fighting chance early on just as they deserve without racism and stereotypical attitudes. I am really dissappointed to know that ATL is facing some of the same problems I am attempting to get my kids away from.. SOmeone please speak up and speak out against this viscious cycle of indignity.

By 1218jenise

April 16, 2007 5:25 PM | Link to this

“WAR EAGLE”!Am I hearing from a person that has come from ALABAMA, of all places. I am here in ALABAMA and it remains racist as ever and stuck in caveman time.I am not shocked by your comments, even the Blacks here in ALABAMA(which I am ) are prejudiced against other Blacks, go figure! Children are children, but our children are getting a bad rap from the start. Little ‘Douglas’ is afforded a call home to mom/dad while ‘DeAndre’ is put in detention or sent to the office. Where is the justice in that? We are raising kids in an unfair world anyway..why cant we give them a fighting chance early on just as they deserve without racism and stereotypical attitudes. I am really dissappointed to know that ATL is facing some of the same problems I am attempting to get my kids away from.. SOmeone please speak up and speak out against this viscious cycle of indignity.

By Fred D.

April 16, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

but still I made it when they said I couldn’t, still I made it, even when they put obstacles in front of me, still I made it, even with my hair (see Imus), and that folks was when racism was cool, so don’t tell me about your petty little, self-absorbed problems today, F.D…out

By Lazr

April 16, 2007 5:35 PM | Link to this

maybe we can still blame the shootings at Va Tech on a mad whitey, we’ll just say he wasn’t Asian after all, the sun was just in his eyes

By Quit whining

April 16, 2007 5:36 PM | Link to this

And if little Douglas is sent to detention, what the crap does that have to do with little DeAndre? Again, knock off the third-grade obsession with what someone else is getting away with.

Black kids get far more of a bad rap from listening to their mother complain about how white kids get away with bad behavior while little DeAndre can’t. And listening to their mother (cause babydaddy sure ain’t in no picture) call the teachers racist when they punish DeAndre. Self pity is far more destructive than the most virulent racism.

By scott

April 16, 2007 5:43 PM | Link to this

Judi, Don Imus mentality, do you know my children? You really need to get a life. My wish is that you never get to know my children, espcially if you are a teacher.

To everyone else, why not deal with all FACTS and not just pointed attacks at myself or a particular group of people. I noticed no one commented on my own personal experience in a well to do white school and the student who smoked weed with his father. Of course I must be making that up, since all the societal ills in the good ol’ USA are because of blacks and hispanics.

Stop drinking your own kool-aid and think for yourselves.

America’s cut off its nose to spite its face mentality towards black america will only come back to hurt us all in the end. We will not be around when all of our great-grandchildren are speaking Manderin.

No man is an Island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the main. - John Donne.

And with that you all may have a good evening, I am retired for the day.

By Janine

April 16, 2007 5:49 PM | Link to this

Wow…reading all of these posts has been enlightening. I have just one more thing to add. I taught in a middle school for all of my teaching career…mostly African American at first, then mostly Hispanic. As you all know we have teaching teams in Middle School, and mine was exceptionally cooperative and exceptionally candid with each other. WHenever our team needed to communicate a disciplinary concern to an African Am. student’s parent, one of the African Am teachers on our team would tell us that it would be better for her to approach the parent. We all knew what she meant. It worked well.

By Mick

April 16, 2007 5:50 PM | Link to this

I’m white, my Mom helped me shoot up, she was a real Heroine!

By BNQ

April 16, 2007 5:55 PM | Link to this

yes, Scott, this will hurt us all in the end, and we’ll all remember that you were the ones that lead the retreat

By Ernest

April 16, 2007 6:59 PM | Link to this

Over 200 posts on this topic. It is amazing that whenever the subject centers on race, the number of posts that are made. I guess the AJC knows what is guaranteed to get a lot of traffic….

By Judi

April 16, 2007 7:10 PM | Link to this

It is a shame that Scott has signed off. It strikes me that most people have signed off after 5pm or 6pm. That seems to suggest that you are all on th blog while at work. GOOD WORK ETHIC!!!!!!!! But then that explains a lot!!!

By disgusted@comcast.net

April 16, 2007 7:22 PM | Link to this

Well, I live near a diverse middle school. Upper middle class white kids and poor black kids (well, I guess it’s not that diverse). Many of them walk home by my house after school.

The white kids are socializing and walking relatively calmly. If they see and adult outside at least one of them always says hello. I have never heard profanity from a single one of them. They are neatly dressed.

The packs of black kids… well, they run all over back and forth across the street. They scream hideous profanities even when young children are around. (I have made a habit of bringing my children in when middle school lets out as a result).

Last week the little darlings pulled dozens of glass bottles out of recycling bins (trash day) and smashed them all over the street. It took 8 neighbors 4 hours to clean it all up. Today, they ripped up phone books that had been delivered and threw them all over the street and in people’s yards. When I asked them to stop they told me to “fk off b_h.”

I live in a pretty upscale neighborhood (500K or better homes) but a poorer neighborhood is within walking distance.

From what I see coming home from school every day, I have no doubts whatsoever that there is “race disparity” in discipline. The difference in behavior is unbelievable between the races from what I see.

By Advice

April 17, 2007 8:28 AM | Link to this

My advice,

Perhaps its time to go spray paint the water tower on 85 from , “ Gwinnett is great “ to “ Gwinnett #$@#$” and then LEAVE !

By Mike In Woodstock

April 17, 2007 8:31 AM | Link to this

Policies like this get implemented then the AJC will run a story in 2 years wondering why there is a “white flight” out of Gwinnett county. ROFLMAO!

By Tony

April 17, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this

From the point of view of running a school, I must agree that enforcing the discipline policy must be consistent. Students who do not follow procedures and rules must be ready to improve. One of the most important functions of my job is to evaluate school data to see what’s going on. If there is a discrepancy between races with matters of discipline it behooves the school to examine the problem and seek interventions. It is not appropriate to reduce the standards so that fewer people are given consequences.

Teaching children encompasses more than book knowledge and if our job as educators is to prepare children for the future, then we must also teach them how to follow rules and procedures. It is also necessary to meet with parents and community members in order to work together to solve problems like racial disparities. I’ve stated this before - the community sets the standards and expectations for the schools. If the school has one message and the community has a different one, the kids are the ones who lose.

When schools must enforce disciplinary consequences, it is important for parents to work with the school and be supportive. An unfortunate trend in some areas is that parents immediately “support” their child. By defending a child no matter what the real circumstances, the child’s position in life is weakened! Children need to know parents have high expectations for their behavior and they are smart enough to learn when parents will bail them out. Believe it or not, kids will take advantage of their parents’ weaknesses.

When I meet with parents, 99% are supportive of the school’s position regarding behavior. The other 1% tries to twist the situation around so that their child’s behavior was someone else’s fault. In conferences like these, parents will say, “My child would not lie to me.” My advice to these parents is that trusting their child is important, but verifying their stories is equally important. The child needs to know you’ll do this before he/she becomes a teenager.

By Todd

April 17, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this

Sorry, if one group is more thugish than another, so be it. That group will be punished more. Take spousal abuse. Who is usually (notice I said “usually”) the physical abuser? The man.

Well, I have been teaching for four years now and in the two schools I have taught, the by far majority of thugs have been the blacks. At one school, my first, there were many white kids who had been kicked out of the private schools who were druggies. As a whole, these kids were not as disrespectful, though some were, and did not disrupt the school. On the other hand the fights as school were nearly always among the blacks (and girls as that). So who do you think is going to be punished more?

Sorry, but he who commits the crime pays the time. If it so happens that blacks among races or men among the sexes, are the majority, that is that.

Someone has to be the majority. What should we do? Give the blacks a Get Out of Jail or Discipline Free Card for being black?

By thisisbiggerthanitshouldbe

April 17, 2007 9:33 AM | Link to this

I didn’t act up at school because I knew there would be hell to pay at home if I did. On the first day of school (until I started high school), one of my parents would take me to school and instruct my teachers to do whatever they needed to do if I got out of line. They also assured my teachers that whatever they did would not compare to what I would face at home.

I have friends who work in school systems and they all have the same lament: all parents seem to lack the time to be actively involved in their child’s education. When discipline becomes a problem, the parent is agitated because their schedule has been adversely affected; therefore, they are not focused on why they were called to school in the first place.

The idea that Gwinnett County is even considering changes to the disciplinary policy because of the statistics is laughable. While I’m sure that there are cases of “unfair” treatment within the cited statistics, I still believe that teachers have the best interests of all their students at heart. School is not taxpayer-funded babysitting or hand-holding, it is an environment for education and I would hope that anyone who is disruptive in said environment is disciplined, no matter what race/ethnic group the offended belongs to.

By Parent in GCPS

April 17, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

Shame on all of you turning this into a race baiting issue.

I would guess that none of you have taken the time to read the actual policy on the website www.gwinnett.k12.ga.us. If you do and compare the old and proposed rules, you will see very little change.

In addition, identifying the specific offenses which are to be taken to a panel will improve student behavior for all students, demystify the process for all parents, and bring about effective local interventions at all schools.

As a parent in Gwinnett, this is important because it will lead to a safer environment, which is conducive to a good learning environment.

Can’t imagine a better place to be in Georgia.

By Cletus Snow

April 17, 2007 9:59 AM | Link to this

I fail to understand the logic behind differant rules for differant races.There can only be one set of rules.Sounds like the slippery slope to seperate but equal. The students who refuse to follow the rules should be short bussed to alternative schools.The disruption they cause restricts the ability to teach the curriculum. What do you teach a child when when you allow race to dictate what the rules are.

By Sparta Man

April 17, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this

Folk’s it not just in the school system. This is a racist world we live in. Blacks predominately use Crack Cocaine. Whites predominately use powdered cocaine. Guess which one has legal punishment almost ten times greater than the other? Let’s pray for a God and Heaven, then some of us on the bottom will finally feel equality. Those of you shafting people, today will see equality in Hades.

By BD

April 17, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

A few musings about teaching, discipline and race: I have been teaching about ten years. I am in a school system where the minority populations are becoming the majority of the student body. Currently, my school is about 50% white/50% black, my classes about 60/40; within about five years, I expect the population of my school to about 70% black. Much of that change is due to folks from New York and New Jersey moving into our county, bringing their drugs, gangs, disrepect, and anti-authority mentality with them.

I do not know the numbers, but I think it is a safe guess to say that the majority of discipline referrals in my school are for black kids, considering that most of the kids sitting outside the principal’s office are black. Does that mean that the black kids are being picked on? NO - IT MEANS THAT THOSE KIDS ARE THE ONES MISBEHAVING AND CAUSING PROBLEMS.

I do not think of myself as a racist, but it sure seems hard to maintain that thought pattern considering the things I am subjected to in the classroom each day. For example, I have a group of 4 girls in my 6th period class who are loud, obnoxious, disrespectful, and have a generally bad attitude - and they happen to be black. After making several calls to each of their parents, assigning detention for disruptions to class, and having conferences with two of their parents, I finally referred them to the office for discipline issues (which I seldom do - you can count on one hand the number of times I submit office referrals in any given year)…

I then got an email from of their parents questioning why only “black students” were referred to the office, insinuating that I was trying to run black kids out of my program…on the one hand, I was offended that she would suggest my discipline referrals were racially motivated - but on the other hand, I questioned whether I was really looking for problems from these black kids…I looked around my classroom, and the only discipline problems I have in any of my classes are the black kids! There are plenty of black kids who do great in my classes and present no problems, but just about any problem I have comes from the black kids…

The white kids will tell you that they just go to their classes, try to avoid conflict, and try to slide through the huddled masses of black kids in the halls on their way to class. Stand in the halls when the classes are changing, and you will see white kids in the halls right after the first bells rings and black kids still in the halls when the tardy bell rings.

Wow, that blog was a lot longer than I intended. Bridget’s initial question asked if there is a racial divide which causes teachers to not cut minority students some slack. No - that racial divide is one dividing the students who behave from the ones who don’t.

By Logic

April 17, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

The sooner the division stops the quicker we can attempt to realize we are one big community (like it or not). If we are going to make rules/laws (not just in schools) then they shouldn’t bend depending on social bias. I pray that the racial views that some have expressed on this blog will not be passed down to our future generations. If we knew better we would do better.

By Teacher, Too

April 17, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this

BD- that same problem occured with me last year. I had a group of black boys in one of my classes. I only had black boys and one hispanic boy- no white ones. For the girls, I had one black girl and the rest were white. I only had problems with the black boys- the one problem I had with the hispanic boy was ironed out when his mother came to observe her son and saw the same problems.

Of course, one student’s parents made the discipline issue into a racial issue. How could I have been discriminating when all the boys were black except the one hispancic? The white girls sat very quietly, highly annoyed that everyday classtime was disrupted by the same one or two boys. And, of course, the boys never misbehaved in any other class- only mine. Well, that’s not true either.

Yesterday, I also posted about the differences in the way the white teachers are able to talk to students versus the way black teachers address students. Has anyone else ever noticed this difference? If I spoke to students the way the black teachers spoke to students, I would be written up and disciplined.

By BD

April 17, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this

Teacher, Too, Glad it is not just me. I have seen the differences in the ways white teachers can communicate versus the way black teachers can as well. I have asked a black teacher to speak to one of the same kids I mentioned in the above post - turns out that girl pretty much thinks her white teachers are out to get her - go figure.

By SET

April 19, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

Teacher Too: Blacks don’t have “White Guilt” and earned or not, we always have higher self esteem. We are often not politically correct - unless we are using that as a weapon to get what we want.

I find this very useful in court.

There’s nothing I can do for them if whites are too weak and unable to speak the truth to themselves or anyone else. I will take advantage of this whenever it’s useful to do so.

When dealing with other blacks who are less than peers there are no illusions as to what will happen to them if I don’t get my way. But sometimes you do have to “‘Splain it” to them.

It has been said that we were once House Slaves… Whatever. The generation below me seem to have some of these innate abilities also. But then they were raised by my generation. We don’t worry much about “how they feel”. We focus on how they act and don’t spare all kinds of discipline. My grandparents and parents were told all thier lives that they couldn’t do something (like vote?). They always found a way to get what they wanted regardless.

I was told I couldn’t have or do something also - my parents had to go off on my high school when I started because they though Algebra might be too hard for me in combination with the other college prep courses my parents selected for me. The school tried to keep me out of college prep - that’s laugh. I was accellerated into UC Berkeley by the beginning of 12th grade.

All of my professional black friends have similar stories. We don’t believe we can’t do or have something just because someone (especially white) says it isn’t done. That’s been the lesson of time. And no one tells us how we can’t talk to a bunch of brats either.

I was a High School sub once. I didn’t have the problems with students white or black that white subs did. When there was defiance, I broke them very quickly and publicly. I did lots of things other than referral/suspensions, but I did set a school record for those. That was a spike. The need for referrals abated when the students gave up on defying me.

Actually I just remembered some of the brutally non-violent tactics of the Irish Nuns I had in grade school. They worked.

Hope this gives you some insight into how I see things.

By Teacher, Too

April 19, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

Thanks, SET. I am very strict with my students, both black and white. I set very high standards for ALL my students, and I generally don’t have behavior problems.

My comment was just an observation. I would not talk to students the way some teachers do because I find it offensive and degrading to the student and to me. Personally, I didn’t view this as white guilt- just as a difference in the way that some teachers talk to students.

By Angry Black Man

April 23, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

I agree that we all need to take responsibility for our actions. But at the same time America was built on politics. EVERYONE knows that white students receive “slaps on their wrists” all of the time because of who their fathers are and forefahers were. Blacks maybe “REPORTED” as having a higher disciplinary track. But ponder this question…How many of them have brought guns to school and used them???

By SET

April 23, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

Tescher, Too: I enjoyed talking sternly to students who needed it and having them run to a dictionary to figure out what was said to them.

You don’t have to curse a child to chastise or correct them. Like puppies, they respond to tone of voice and non-verbal cues. Taking their toys away works also.

Things go better when you get into teens faces (so to speak) quickly as they misbehave. The current crop of kids have been spoiled, first by their parent(s) and then by school systems that allow them to strut around with their self-esteem intact when they haven’t earned the right to do so.

I’m sure that Black Teachers are more comfortable confronting misbehaving black kids - because the current crop of white teachers are generally to politically correct (and know the school won’t support them either) than the Irish & Italian Nuns I had in grade school. I don’t think I ever saw a black Nun. Back in the early ’60s a black Nun would probably have been tougher than Medea.

I still say we need less white guilt and more tough teachers on the public school kids. But that take even tougher administrators to support the teachers and to confront the parents that fail to send the kid to class prepared and disciplined.

That the Black Children on the average are greater disipline problems is a no brainer. Has anybody checked the latest puberty (maturation) charts? The ethnics are not equal - some ethnics have puberty dropping to below age 10. Guess who? So stop expecting equal behavior at age 15 when Asians are still entering puberty and blacks for example have been into puberty for as long as 5 years. Ethnics are different from each other. Not better or worse, but different. They have different needs and different disadvantages.

People with early puberty are at risk for all kinds of things (trauma deaths, VD and pregnancy..) and yes, they need much more adult attention on such things as deportment and discipline. So Boo Hoo about the black school dicipline rates. What does anyone expect?

By catlady

April 23, 2007 5:22 PM | Link to this

Tony, one of my colleagues said to a parent,”So, you say I am lying?” “And the teacher last year? And the year before? We are all lying?” The parent began to backpeddle then. I plan to use it if I am challenged about an observed behavior.