Get Schooled

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

As long as they are prepared to accept any negative consequences without whining, I say let em!

(Note that by “whining” I am talking about things such as complaining about zeroes on assignments missed, complaining about not being able to walk at graduation -if the principal says that is the punishment for walking out of class -, etc)

By JustMe

April 13, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

Bridget -

Come on, now.

High school students are kids, not adults. Before you can protest anything you should understand it.

High school kids “protest” because they can ditch school with an unlikely chance of repercussions. Once they feel empowered to “protest” by ditching school, they will do it again and again (see Lakeside).

If you want to teach them the value of standing up for something that they know and really believe in, why must they ditch school? Why can’t they protest before or after school? It’s still a protest, right?

The reason is because if the “protest” was not DURING school (thus skipping classes), few if any students would do it.

By HB

April 13, 2007 1:02 PM | Link to this

Then again, if protests didn’t disrupt the school day, maybe the powers that be would pay less attention. I have a problem with the whole “they’re just kids, they don’t know” argument. They are adolescents — not entirely grown up, but definitely not children anymore. I also don’t think it’s fair to assume that high schoolers don’t understand what they are protesting. I taught with a civic education program in DC for a while — one that accepted students of all academic levels, not one of the “by invitation only” programs that costs far more and actually has a less challenging curriculum according to the many teachers I knew who worked for both. A few students were oblivious to the world around them, but most were far more engaged in current issues (especially issues of local interest and those pertaining to school) than adults give them credit for.

So I’m with Jeff — if they are prepared to accept all reasonable consequences (I think zeros for missing class are quite reasonable), then good for them for standing up for what they believe in!

By mmm

April 13, 2007 1:55 PM | Link to this

If the Lakeside article is accurate, than a staff person who comes to a meeting to which she is not invited (which I presume she would not have known about, except by means of privileged informations available to her because of the nature of her employment). She proceeds to remain in the lobby making notes about who attends (for what possible reason except to then attempt to contact those individuals later). She is asked to leave, first by the assistant superintendent and then by police (per the police report) and does not promptly do as requested by the police officer. I think that insubordination is the least of the misbehaviors here, and I think that this time the administration has good documents to back the firing. Any protesters should consider well what they are protesting if they intend to walk out.

By V for Vendetta

April 13, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

Interesting, for once I’m not entirely sure how I would respond to this. Unfortunately, I think I would land on the “harsher” side of things. The bottom line is this: when you are in school you DO NOT have rights, it’s like being in prison. I hate to make that analogy, but it’s true. You do NOT get to wear what you want, say what you want, or act however you want whenever you want. There are rules and expectations to follow and live up to, there is simply no room for thinking you have something to protest about (which usually amounts to wanting to get out of class).

While I whole-heartedly agree with Jeff on the “accepting the consequences” front, I fear that such a demonstration is unnecessarily empowering. The last thing most kids today need is MORE self esteem. They have hard enough time accepting the fact that they are all NOT perfect and unique and in fact mostly suck. As much as I enjoy raging against the machine (so to speak), I have to say that there is no place for protests in school environment below college.

The self esteem, sense of empowerment, and most of all, sense of entitlement has got to stop. We don’t need any more of it. God knows parents are bad enough about telling their kids what wonderful, precious, little, unique snowflakes they are, we don’t need to make it worse.

“You are NOT a beautiful and unique snowflake.” - Tyler Durden.

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

V:

I completely agree. What I left unsaid was that if I were the teacher, I would give a pop-Midterm as soon as the bell rang that day. You’re there, you ace. You’re not, you get the afore-mentioned zero. “But I was at the protest!” Too bad! You missed the class assignment, you don’t have a valid excuse, you take the zero. You want to be an adult, time to REALLY start acting like one: Which is more important, your principles or your job??

(Note that I’m now starting to go with the “job” answer MUCH more than I did while I was in teaching. The reasoning is simple: While I was teaching, I was single. Not an issue. Now, 6 months from now I will have a wife to think about. SHE is the most important thing, and she needs me to have a job!)

By JustMe

April 13, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

HB -

Parents with attitudes like yours is one reason why there are so many unruely kids in school, today. Kids in school are minors without rights that adults enjoy. They are in school because they are learning and do not know everything. I seriously doubt that all of the Lakeside students “protesting” knew all of the details about the firing of that secretary.

Do not treat teenagers like adults - they are not.

By jim d

April 13, 2007 2:55 PM | Link to this

V,

Finally something to discuss.

I totally disagree. And the supreme court has ruled in the past that students do maintain certain rights and need not abandon those rights at the school house door.

That being said, I do agree with jeff about the consequences. Students may gain a great deal of knowledge that will serve them later in life.

I want to see a show of hands here on how many of y’all ever officaly ever protested any damn thing. I’d wager, it will be only a few like KA, myself and several others that grew up in the 60’s.

What I find more disturbing than high school students protesting is college students not protesting anything—they’ve become sheeple.

By Janine

April 13, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

Well Bridget..this is quite a topic today. I,unexpectedly, find myself agreeing with at least a part of all of the posts! I like Jeff’s idea about a pop midterm and about the students being willing to accept the consequences without whining, but, if I ‘get real’ here, I know that the administrators [perhaps swayed by parental pressure] will not allow that grade.. or any other form of consequences to stand.

And ‘V’, what you say about not having rights when you’re in school, is what we think should be, but if you have been in a school for any length of time at all, you know it’s not that way! Today it seems students have more rights than teachers.

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

jim:

I do my protesting the same way I did virtually everything else up until last weekend: on my own. If people want to stand with me, fine, thank you. But if I must stand alone, I WILL stand.

That said, due to my strategies, most of the time you see me doing something one on one, whether it be emailing, debating face 2 face, talking to others (I have been accused of inciting a riot or two in my day…), blogging, whatever. I just don’t do the whole march-around-with-signs-and-chants deal. Serves no purpose other than MAYBE to get yourself on TV on an EXTREMELY slow news day…

By Janine

April 13, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this

As to today’s question…I think the walk out today is, in part ,protesting the removal of the principal for what the students and many parents and teachers feel is an unjust reason.

THe stated reason for his removal [and that of several other principals ] is lack of improvement in test scores. Probably deemed unjust because as one our the posters here has mentioned before, if you go on Dekalb’s website you will find many more principals who have not facilitated an increase in scores, yet they are left untouched. I do think at the very least the juniors and seniors can understand the details of that…and that even the freshmen can tell you some of the details.

By jim d

April 13, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

just me,

“Do not treat teenagers like adults - they are not.”

Rather broad brush don’t you think?

I’ve had the pleasure of working with many youth that I’d consider more on top of whats going on in the world around them then many of the adults I’ve encountered.

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

jim:

Did you know that students do NOT have the right to go to the bathroom in school? Whichever just-below-Supreme Court handles the Alabama area decided that a couple of years ago, the Supremes refused the case.

Basic outline of the case: Some punk in Bama wanted to go to the restroom. Teacher said no. He either went anyway and got into SERIOUS trouble or wet himself, can’t remember which. Winds up suing the school. Finally, the above scenario happened.

By Ernest

April 13, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

JimD, your last comment had me ROTFLOL. Though I’m more a student on the 70’s, I recall being involved in a few protests. I also agree with Jeff that if the students are willing to make an adult decision, they must be willing to accept an adult consequence.

Ironically, my son asked me not long ago my thoughts on a ‘protest’ he and his classmates were considering over their ‘perception’ of an unjust policy. I smiled and told him I admired their passion however reminded him they must be willing to accept whatever consequences come from this. He looked at me and said, “What do you mean Dad, you wouldn’t help me out if I got suspended?” I smiled and said NO. Needless to say, the protest did not happen.

By jim d

April 13, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

Some of y’all may find this hard to believe but these kids fully understand what a cruel joke NCLB is and that the repercussion’s of this bogus legislation is costing beloved school administrators and teachers their jobs. I say, KUDO’S to these young people that feel strongly enough to speak out and every teacher here should be sending them thanks for doing what they themselves fear do!

By Janine

April 13, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

I am of the opinion that it’s okay for these students to protest. If there are some who are in the ” I just don’t care what happens here, I just want to get out of class’ category, they probably wouldn’t be doing much in class anyway. Since this is my neighborhood, I know that many, many parents are very upset by the principal’s removal as well as the secretary’s and are therefore supporting the protest by their students. ANd since I taught in Dekalb for 32 years, I know that this school system could put Houdini to shame with their sleight of hand and cover ups.

By InWonder

April 13, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

I have seen the way teenagers act today. They go around with a “you cannot touch me, the rules don’t apply to me” smurk on their face and the attitude to match. And guess what: we did it to ourselves. We have given these kids the means to know what “power” they have and they see that “power” and just dangle it there over all the adults. The see that as a they are better than adults because they have more “power”. They know more about what is going on that we give them credit for: they will jump on the DEFAC bandwagon if they don’t get their way because, to them, DEFAC and the government will always believe them over their parents; they have the internet and the TV. Watch any court tv shows. I have seen teens sueing because they know their “rights” and they have an attitude of “See, we ARE smarter and know it all more than these stupid adults. See, that is why we need all these rights and don’t give any to the adults.” It is downright sickening. We have lowered ourselves as adults to be on our knees having to please these kids because we thought that giving them rights would help them out…some do help, but most are now stabing us in the back.

By high school teacher

April 13, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

I was too busy studying in college to have time to protest anything! I was at UGA during Desert Storm, and North Campus turned into a camp-out for war protestors, but other than that, I don’t remember anything worthy of protesting. It was the early 90’s, after all. LOL

By jim d

April 13, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this

BTW just me,

Here’s what the supremes have had to say on student rights.

TINKER v. DES MOINES SCHOOL DIST., 393 U.S. 503 (1969) is one of the most important U.S. Supreme Court cases on student rights. The following language is from the Supreme Court’s opinion: “First Amendment rights, applied in light of the special characteristics of the school environment, are available to teachers and students. It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate. This has been the unmistakable holding of this Court for almost 50 years.” “The Fourteenth Amendment, as now applied to the States, protects the citizen against the State itself and all of its creatures - Boards of Education not excepted. These have, of course, important, delicate, and highly discretionary functions, but none that they may not perform within the limits of the Bill of Rights. That they are educating the young for citizenship is reason for scrupulous protection of Constitutional freedoms of the individual, if we are not to strangle the free mind at its source and teach youth to discount important principles of our government as mere platitudes.” “The District Court concluded that the action of the school authorities was reasonable because it was based upon their fear of a disturbance from the wearing of the armbands. But, in our system, undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression. Any departure from absolute regimentation may cause trouble. Any variation from the majority’s opinion may inspire fear. Any word spoken, in class, in the lunchroom, or on the campus, that deviates from the views of another person may start an argument or cause a disturbance. But our Constitution says we must take this risk, and our history says that it is this sort of hazardous freedom - this kind of openness - that is the basis of our national strength and of the independence and vigor of Americans” “In order for the State in the person of school officials to justify prohibition of a particular expression of opinion, it must be able to show that its action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint. Certainly where there is no finding and no showing that engaging in the forbidden conduct would “materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school,” the prohibition cannot be sustained.” “In our system, state-operated schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students in school as well as out of school are “persons” under our Constitution. They are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State. In our system, students may not be regarded as closed-circuit recipients of only that which the State chooses to communicate. They may not be confined to the expression of those sentiments that are officially approved. In the absence of a specific showing of constitutionally valid reasons to regulate their speech, students are entitled to freedom of expression of their views. As Judge Gewin, speaking for the Fifth Circuit, said, school officials cannot suppress ‘expressions of feelings with which they do not wish to contend.’” “The vigilant protection of constitutional freedoms is nowhere more vital than in the community of American schools.' Shelton v. Tucker, [364 U.S. 479,] at 487. The classroom is peculiarly themarketplace of ideas.’ The Nation’s future depends upon leaders trained through wide exposure to that robust exchange of ideas which discovers truth `out of a multitude of tongues, [rather] than through any kind of authoritative selection.’”

By jim d

April 13, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this

Dear High School Teacher,

To tell you the truth: if it weren’t for pictures I wouldn’t remember most of the 60’s or 70’s. :-)

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

jim:

Now that’s just BAD my friend! LOL!

One of these nights I’m gonna have to drink so much I forget it, but it hasn’t happened yet! (Though I have gotten quite - at least in MY mind - funny!)

By jim d

April 13, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

Well Jeff,

I’ve been told that anyone that remembered the 60’s wasn’t there.

By HB

April 13, 2007 3:47 PM | Link to this

Just me, I would argue that is it not parents who believe as I do that teenagers should be treated as adolescents (not adults as you stated, but not as children either), but rather parents who baby their kids who lead to unruly children. When I say don’t treat them like children, I don’t mean let them do whatever they want to do. I mean give them responsibilities, high expectaions, and even opportunities to break rules (when it’s safe and done with good intentions such as this protest) and suffer consequences in a controlled setting. They shouldn’t be babied and then suddenly let loose as “adults” with all rights and priviledges, but no experience actually thinking for themselves, when they hit that magic age of 18.

You are correct that students do not enjoy all the rights that adults do, but as jim d correctly pointed out, they are not totally without rights either. Of course, they do not know everything, but they are not clueless — we should stop treating them as if they are!

Teenagers are in a transition period. They need more freedom to make choices while they still have adults to supervise and guide them. They absolutely should suffer consequences for their actions. That is part of the learning process. As mmm pointed out, these students should think hard about whether this firing is worth protesting — that’s part of the learning process too. I hope that adults who feel the administration is right will calmly and rationally explain to the students why the secretary should be fired. They need that information as well as what they already believe so that they can weigh their options. I hope parents also will stress the consequences of walking out to them as well.

V, I understand where you’re coming from on the self esteem issue, but I disagree. Self esteem is actually a good thing, but only when it comes from actually doing something that they can be proud of. I think students need real events and achievements that empower them as opposed to the “you can do no wrong” message they hear all too often that’s manufactured to make them feel good about themselves. I do agree with you that those messages have led to a horrible sense of entitlement for many kids. In this situation, though, if they are punished for breaking the rules and still feel good about their decision — well, that can bring good feelings about themselves that they’ve actually earned.

And I do like Jeff’s idea of a pop midterm. It makes the choice of whether or not to walk out a meaningful one — not just a excuse to skip class.

By JustMe

April 13, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

jim d-

I am confused by your post at 3:20. These kids are “protesting” supposedly because of a school system firing(s). That has nothing to do with NCLB.

Tell me about any protest against NCLB and I am there! I am sure that there will also be many many other teachers there as well!

By jim d

April 13, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

Sorry HB, but I disagree with jeffs pop quizz. What hwe is doing might be considered punishment. If he already had it planned that would be one thing (consequences) However, doing it out of spite to punish the kids isn’t right either. As for me, I feel the zero for the day as planned is sufficent consequence from a teacher any other consequence should be dealt out from higher up. Follow the chain of command if you will.

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 4:05 PM | Link to this

jim:

It is a pop MIDTERM. Which the more I think about, the more I like anyway. Never set the official date for the midterm for your class… keept the kids guessing. Helps with attendance as well as paying attention (hopefully!) After “normal” midterm time, swtich to a pop FINAL with the same guidelines/ reasoning! (Oh, and this way does away with your “punishment” argument.)

By JustMe

April 13, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

Regarding treating teenagers like adults….

I agree that children of all ages should be given responsibilities, boundaries, and consequences if their actions are inappropriate. However, children, even teenagers, should not be empowered to make major life decisions on their own - they are just not ready yet. They should not be groomed to believe that they know everything - they do not. Good parents/mentors/adults will guide children and point them in the right direction.

The baby bird doesn’t hatch right out the egg and start to fly. They watch momma bird fly and also test out their wings under her supervision before attempting their first flight.

Many (not all) students today feel that they have rights and are empowered/emboldened to stand up to authority figures when they should not. The students too often question why the teacher gives an assignment and then try to bargin for their grade. This is not an admirable trait in a child.

By jim d

April 13, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

Just me,

Perhaps this will clear any confusion.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/stories/2007/03/28/0328principal.html

Apparently students felt strongly that NCLB was involved. Note the following from the link above.

“Lakeside is widely regarded as one of DeKalb’s top public high schools and also one of its most diverse. The school, with 1,567 students, includes a population that is 9 percent Asian, 29 percent black, 13 percent Latino, 43 percent white and 5 percent multiracial

Most of its students easily met state standards last year, and the school often is included in top rankings including SAT scores.

However, Lakeside’s Latino students and students considered economically disadvantaged failed to meet required academic goals in English and language arts. As a consequence, the school did not meet its testing goals under the federal No Child Left Behind law.

By HB

April 13, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this

I see your point, jim, and believe you are correct. I don’t think a teacher should intentionally do that. I guess I was thinking of the many days when we had no grades assigned in high school when I could have missed every class with no real consequences. A more appropriate consequence would be not being allowed to turn in homework due that day outside of the scheduled class period or to make up new assignments due the next day that a student didn’t know of due to his/her skipping class.

However, if a teacher did decide to add in a pop quiz due to rumors of the protest, it still should be a zero because the teacher has a right to decide when to give quizzes — even it is a jerky thing to do. Harsh, but part of the consequences of walking out. Any quiz given, though, should at least contain relevant information and be an “real” quiz — not a sign your name, get 100% thing. Students who leave should suffer the consequences of their actions, but those who stay should not be rewarded with a free A. All that should be at stake is the opportunity to make a good grade on a fair quiz.

By jim d

April 13, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

Just me,

Again let me say I work extensively with youth and have found a couple of things.

1) when you treat them with respect to their ideas—they respond in like.

2) Allowing them to screw up generally will entice them to strive harder to meet not only their expectations of themselves, but to meet what they perceive as expectations of others.

By jim d

April 13, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this

Sorry jeff,

Unless you had it planned for that day. Even if you hadn’t forewarned students. I guess the only one to really know would be the teacher. I just disagree with waiting and using it as punishment. That my friend isn’t a teachers job.

One thing I’ve learned from Scouting is that youth will follow you anywhere in learning—actually they will take the lead but first you as an adult must earn their confidence and respect. (notice I said earn)

These kids will absolutely amaze you with their willingness to learn and demonstrate their newly aquired skills.

By Janine

April 13, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this

FYI: On the promo for the 6 o’clock news on Channel 2 they showed pictures of the Lakeside students protesting today.

By jim d

April 13, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this

It’s truly a shame teachers are too damned scared to join them!

By HB

April 13, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

“1) when you treat them with respect to their ideas—they respond in like.

2) Allowing them to screw up generally will entice them to strive harder to meet not only their expectations of themselves, but to meet what they perceive as expectations of others.”

I couldn’t agree more, jim!

By KA

April 13, 2007 5:56 PM | Link to this

What an excellent opportunity to teach students how to have a meaningful dialogue when a conflict situation arises. But do the schools turn this opportunity into a positive, or just react negatively, i.e. students have no rights at school, you are children, you don’t know the facts, blah, blah, blah! The wardens running the schools need to start treating the students like people and less like inmates. Admins argue that they need their draconian rules becuase the kids get out of control, well maybe some of them, but whose fault is that? It’s the school systems and admin policiies that refuse to allow the tyeachers to maintain their own discipline and remove the bad actors from the classrooms permanently. HS students are being prepared for the WORLD, either a job and independence, or college and independence. The admins are clueless about teaching the students how to handle and tlak through these situations, to behave like adults should, to treat them with respect for their opinions and create a dialogue, not a stone wall of reasons not to listen to them. We all just want to be heard, young and old.

By JustMe

April 16, 2007 8:13 AM | Link to this

The Lakeside “protest” really had nothing to do with NCLB. The article included the descriptors about Lakeside as extra information.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I subscribe to the old addage of “children should be seen and not heard.” Children do not know enough to make decisions or to formulate intelligent opinions. When adults treat children as if they do, it cripples that child into thinking that they are already adults and already know everything - thus comes bad attitudes and bad behavior and disrespect on their part.

If children could make wise decisions, there would be no teen pregnancy, no teen drug or alcohol abuse, all students would study and make A’s in school, etc.

As an adult, I do not respect the opinion of an uninformed, inexperienced 6 year old. I cannot believe that any rational adult would.

Developmentally, they are still very immature, often having imaginary friends and the like. But some of you want to respect their opinion on worldly matters? What am I missing here?????

By KA

April 16, 2007 8:27 AM | Link to this

JustMe, was it a typo, “inexperienced six year olds”? The Lakeside HS students are entirely capable of forming reasonable and fact based opinions. IMO the faculty and staff should use this opportunity to talk with the students and educate them, teach them how to have a challenging discussion about the facts; and not shut them off and treat them like six year olds. ‘Children’ will perform according to adult expectations, low or high.

By Jeff

April 16, 2007 8:36 AM | Link to this

JustMe:

AMEN!!!

By jim d

April 16, 2007 9:10 AM | Link to this

just me?

6 year olds? I thought we were talking about young adults that ranged in age from 14-18.

If you insist on wearing blinders to the facts, I’m ok with that. But you need to look at what has been going on at Lakeside over the past couple of years and not look at this as a single isolated insitance.

BTW, I did hear over the weekend that no actions were to be taken against the students.

By JustMe

April 16, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this

KA -

You are plain WRONG. First, the high school students at Lakeside do not and did not have all of the facts. Second, even if they were “given” the facts, they won’t know which were ethical actions and which were not. Therefore, the high school students are unable to make an informed, mature, experienced opinion.

Children ages 14 to 18 are not young adults. The major difference between them and 6 year olds is the biological changes and hormones racing through their bodies. Young adults are 20 and over by most developmental experts.

This is highlighting a major problem in our society - we treat children like adults and they are not.

Children (and I define those as at least through high school) are making decisions in our society that is destroying it. They see MTV and the clothes on the “booty girls” and so they chose to buy those clothes for themselves. They see the gold grills on the teeth of rappers and so they chose to get them for their teeth. Children should NOT be making these decisions. The repercussions of these decisions is too harsh (tooth decay once they do reach adulthood for example).

For children to make a decision or form an opinion that an adult was fired inappropriatly is STUPID. Most of them don’t even know what it means to have a full time job!

By jim d

April 16, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

OK, so let’s split hairs.

They are actually youth.

Websters defines youth as: “The time of life when one is young; especially: a: the period between childhood and maturity b: the early period of existence, growth, or development.”

So what’s your plan for letting youth grow and develop if you won’t allow them to make any choices about life?

By JustMe

April 16, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

jim d-

That is a question that every parent must answer for their own family. It certainly is not a question that the school system should answer uniformly for everyone. I would think that you, above all, won’t want a school system to make such a broad decision about such a personal thing!

While I was growing up, even through high school, the few decisions that I made had to be approved by an adult. I could never just buy my own clothes, or just go to any movie. My decisions were guided - and that is what’s missing.

Too many parents/adults simply want to give all decision making over to children. Then, when the children do make the wrong decisions, they shrug their shoulders and say, “they are just children.” It really goes back to my - “parents today don’t know how to be parents” - saying.

My own decisions were not implemented without guidance until I was in college. By that age, I did have an amount of life experiences, knowledge, etc. to make limited decisions. But, I did still make some stupid ones.

Realize that I had a job in high school and I was not allowed to make decisions on how I was going to spend that money without guidance!

Regarding the Lakeside incident…. if a student felt all that strongly, then this is what IMHO should happen. First, that student would get permission from their parent. Second, they would not miss class, but rather “stage” their “protest” during lunch, before school, or after school. And, this is only after the student(s) did exhaustive research to discover all facts about said incident and found just cause to protest - otherwise, we are teaching children to have knee-jerk reactions.

By V for Vendetta

April 16, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

Jim -

I know you and I agree about a great many things, but this was certainly not one of them. I understand what you are saying about kids having “rights” so to speak in high school, but the truth of the matter is that they don’t in the traditional sense. The reason is because they CAN’T. You are absolutely correct about mature young people and responsible high schoolers being able to handle more privlidges, but the fact remains that the MAJORITY of high school students are immature, blithering idiots.

As JustMe said, there are far more positive ways for the students to handle a situation such as this. My first response (if a student asked me) would be to circulate a petition or a xeroxed memo to other students. Perhaps a more “extreme” example or demonstration could be put together and staged after school hours on campus. The fact remains that staging a walk out or protest during school hours is simply inappropriate.

The fact that none of these alternatives were even mentioned sours my opinion towards these students. It’s easy to get on TV and say “we’re doing this for …”, but to actually mean it is another thing entirely. I would be extremely disappointed in any of my students if they staged such a display. I respect your opinions as I do everyone else’s, but I must say that this is where the line is drawn between those who are in the classrooms everyday and those who aren’t. I can look at nearly all of my students and tell you right now that if something similar happened here they would be out the door in two seconds for no other reason than to get out of class.

Sometimes we don’t give the kids enough credit, but at other times we give them too much.

By jim d

April 16, 2007 6:21 PM | Link to this

Well dear V,

We will just have to agree to disagree.

Perhaps the young people I’ve had the pleasure of working with are s bit off from the norm. But these are young adults that I’ve trusted with my life and have every confidence in the world in. These are the leaders of not only tomorrow but many of them are leading the way today with their peers.

Bottom line—I trust their judgement and I really feel sorry for those that don’t. Y’all are missing a great opportunity to see into the future of this great nation and an opportunity to know the leaders of tomorrow, to get a first hand look at where our grandkids will be and the world they will live in after we as individuals have gone.

I’d recommend placing a bit more faith in our young people. You might be surprised to see them step up. I do know they continue to amaze me — every day.

By jim d

April 16, 2007 6:32 PM | Link to this

V,

one parting thought for today.

The educational system teaches kids to follow all the rules handed down to them. They teach them to be good little soldiers. I on the other hand teach them to be leaders. To follow their god given talent to think and act accordingly. I teach them to fend for themselves and others that are weaker or in need and to trust in God. For me to get on a blog or anywhere else for that matter and say I didn’t trust what I’d spent years teaching them would be rather hypocritical on my part. So I guess I’ll just continue to believe!

By JustMe

April 17, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

jim d-

Again, u make a ridiculous and extreme statement…. On 6:32 PM you write that the educational system teaches students to be “good little soldiers.” How stupid!

Then you state that you “teach them to be leaders.” I highly doubt that! Haven’t you ever heard that one cannot be a good leader without first being a good follower?

Finally, in your 6:21 post you say that you trust children to make good decision (you said, “I trust their judgement”). Hmmmmm. Do you have children? Do you let them stay out as late as they want? Do you let them have sex as they so chose? Do you let them eat what they want and when they want? Do you buy them whatever they want? If you really do all of these things, then congrats - you are raising what are called “little monsters” that will torment society in the future and likely become a burden to society in some form or fashion!

Do I have faith in young people? I have faith that, if given proper education and guidance, they have unlimited future capability to succeed. You seem to think that children need neither of these….

By jim d

April 17, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

You know what just me?

I’m beginning to believe you may really be lacking in comprehensive skills. I don’t know what you think I said, but the bottom line my friend is that children can be taught to lead and yes they can be taught to make responsible decisions before they reach the age of 14.

Tell me this, what damn magic do you think takes place at age 18 that automatically makes kids responsible? Think it might be possible that it could happen at say 16 or 15, maybe even 14 or younger with some kids?

If you would kindly remove your head from a lower body orifice you might be able to see that all kids aren’t as lazy and stupid as you believe they are.

Now have a good day.

By JustMe

April 17, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this

jim d-

LOL. You get so very angry because you evidently have no real experience and no real evidence to support your outrageous statements. Don’t get mad at me because I point out the errors of your statements!

Me thinks that it is you that lack comprehension and/or communication skills. Either you are unable to clearly write about what you mean, and/or you cannot read the words on your screen when others clearly can (see V for Vendetta on 1:37).

Blogs are for sharing ideas about topics. But when ideas are ridiculous, I will feel free to point them out!

By jim d

April 17, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

So you can’t answer my questions?

Typical.

By JustMe

April 17, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

You expected a response? Well, here you go….

No, there is no “damn magic” that occurs at a given age. I am a little (not totally) surprised that you needed for me to say that.

However, there is experience gained. In case you were unaware, most people gain life experiences as they age. Older people have more life experiences in general compared to younger people. These experiences contribute greatly to enable one to make wiser and better life decisions.

Younger people should not be left on their own accord to make these decisions because they do not have enough life experiences or even knowledge to make good decisions. Younger people need guidance from older people - namely parents, mentors, etc.

As I mentioned in my previous post, even when I went to college and was on my own as an 18 year old, I still made some stupid decisions. But, they were much better decisions overall because I had more experiences compared to earlier years and I had wonderful adult guidance up until that point.

I do recognize that people are individuals and I do recognize that it is possible for a younger person to have lived a life where they have tremendous life experiences beyond the average, and would therefore be more capable of making better decisions. However, we are talking generalities and averages here and not the focusing on exceptions.

However, with all of that being said, if you want to adopt the opinion of an adolescent and take their advice on things such as marriage, job, career, etc., that is your choice. Good luck with that….

By jim d

April 17, 2007 8:31 PM | Link to this

I’m afraid you fail Reading Comp 101

“Perhaps the young people I’ve had the pleasure of working with”

Please explain how that is a generality since it clearly implies that it is the young people I work closely with.

By JustMe

April 18, 2007 8:04 AM | Link to this

I am afraid that YOU fail Reading 100. I never said that the particular statement you quoted was a generality.

I sincerely hope that you do not work with too many young people. I fear for them and their future.

By jim d

April 18, 2007 8:23 AM | Link to this

u r 2 funny

By jim d

April 18, 2007 8:30 AM | Link to this

“we are talking generalities and averages here and not the focusing on exceptions”

Since this conversation has been between “us”. Please indentify “WE”.

Would that “we” be

1) I and the rest of a group that includes me

2) you and I

3) you and I and another or others

or

4) I and another or others not including you — used as pronoun of the first person plural?

By JustMe

April 18, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

jim d-

I do believe that you are simply hopeless…. Let’s review:

On 8:31 PM, you said:

“Perhaps the young people I’ve had the pleasure of working with”

Please explain how that is a generality since it clearly implies that it is the young people I work closely with.

And I replied at 8:04 AM that:

I am afraid that YOU fail Reading 100. I never said that the particular statement you quoted was a generality.

What I did say at 11:53 AM was that:

I do recognize that people are individuals and I do recognize that it is possible for a younger person to have lived a life where they have tremendous life experiences beyond the average, and would therefore be more capable of making better decisions. However, we are talking generalities and averages here and not the focusing on exceptions.

And, the “we” in the above paragraph refers to the “we” in the blog. It is fine if you want to define the “we” as between “you and me”. I am saying that there are exceptions to our generalities, but “we” are talking about the average kid(s) here. In other words, if you are working with exceptional kids, then your view of kids would not represent the average kid(s).

Now, do you want to know what the definition of the word “is” is? LOL!!!

By jim d

April 18, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

What is is. Is that on these blogs WE as in all bloggers try to refrain from painting broad generalities by speaking from personal expierence. (obviously a concept you’ve yet to grasp)

By HB

April 18, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

I guess some of this depends on what you define as exceptional. JustMe, you seem to have a pretty low opinion of our youth in general that I find truly sad. I gather from your posts that you feel the ones with common sense and reasonably good judgement are exceptions to the rule.

Like jim d, I’ve worked with a lot of kids, most of whom were considered by the adults around them to be “average.” I found them to be good, thoughtful kids, generally trying to do what’s right and possessing good judgement and a strong sense of what’s right and what’s wrong. I heard many of them complain that many adults treated them as if they were stupid and likely to get into trouble, even when none of their actions had given reason to expect them to screw up. In fact, I saw this occur many times, myself. It was just assumed that they would make bad decisions because they were teenagers. They wanted respect and were told it had to be earned, but felt despite their best efforts to do so, many adults would never hear them out on anything because they were “kids.” I’m not talking about discouragement over adults disagreeing with them, but rather the fact that many adults refused to even listen to their concerns. They held dear “children should be seen, not heard” and automatically assumed that kids haven’t bothered to learn all the facts of an issue.

No one here has said or even implied that teenagers should have the freedom to do whatever they want, whenever they want. No one has said curfews are unreasonable, or that adults should go to youth for marriage counseling, as you implied.

We’ve simply said that high expectaions should be set for kids, and they should be given the opportunity to rise to that challenge. We’ve said they should use their voice for two reasons: 1) they need practice expressing their opinions and deciding when to stand up for their beliefs, and suffering the consequences while they still are under adult supervision and 2) frankly, sometimes the “adults” are wrong.

By jim d

April 18, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this

BTW just me,

And, the “we” in the above paragraph refers to the “we” in the blog.”

WRONG ANSWER

Use whatever critical thinking skills you can muster and understand that the only correct answer you could have selected would have been #4, excluding me from the we, since I am blogging here.

By jim d

April 18, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

OH, and just me, feel free to join a group of what you might think are irresponsible kids, unable to lead, on just about any Tuesday evening at 7:00 pm at the HMUMC located on Pine road in Dacula, demonstrating that they can be responsible and are quite competant at leading. Better yet, join them on an outing once a month (that they plan and make happen) to watch how well they do it in their environment.

By JustMe

April 18, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

HB -

I fear that the number of adults that feel that “children should be seen and not heard” are in the vast minority…. unless you count the bad parents that simply ignore their kids (but that’s another topic/blog).

Also, HB, I have never disagreed that kids need to practice responsible decision making. What I have said is that it should be adult monitored and/or under adult supervision. If you go back and read my posts, I give examples. For instance, (some) parents will just give money to kids and let them buy their own clothes. To me, this is wrong - there is no adult supervision. Using that same example, the parents should go to the store with the kids, let the kids pick out the clothes, and then the parents can explain why it is a good choice or a bad choice.

jim d-

You stupid idiot. I wrote the “we” and so I should know what I meant. Who are you to define what I meant????? YOU ARE WRONG!

By HB

April 18, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

Well, I’ll just have to disagree with you, JustMe. I had a small allowance for clothes and my own money from babysitting when I was in high school. Sometimes Mom shopped with me, sometimes not. I was certainly old enough to choose my own clothes, and Mom let me because she trusted me to make reasonable choices. Did that mean if I bought a skimpy little, indecent outfit that I would be allowed to wear it out of the house? Of course not. Did Mom like everything I picked out? No. I think there were times she would have liked to see me tuck in my shirt, or maybe wear something a little “girlier”. But so long as I was sufficiently covered and had no bad messages on my clothing, I could choose my own clothes without her hovering nearby. What’s wrong with that? Do you honestly believe a 17-year-old needs pre-approval for every purchase made with his/her money earned from a part-time job?

By jim d

April 18, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

Speaking of stupid idiots with their panties all knotted up.

By JustMe

April 18, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

HB -

To answer you questions…. No, parents should not pick out clothes in that case. But, your Mom did exactly what I was suggesting, wasn’t she? She was checking to make sure that your decisions were ‘on the right track’. For her, that meant not too skimpy and no bad messages on them. So, your Mom was doing exactly what I am advocating.

Too often today, parents do not do this. They allow kids to make important decisions without any supervision at all. That is why middle school girls will wear Daisy-Dukes and halter tops showing their ‘goods’ for all the world to see. The kids see this clothing on TV and “think” it is appropriate and they have no adult to help them the way that your Mom helped you.

I would suggest that you should review purchases that your 17 year old makes. I would hope that you won’t want him/her to purchase porn or alcohol or some other substance, right (and yes, there are places that would sell this stuff to minors)? How would you know what they are spending money on unless you check? A 17 year old can make decisions, but as their Mother, you are ultimately responsibile for their purchases.

By HB

April 18, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

Well, I’m glad to see you’ve moderated your position, JustMe, from your original assertion that parents should always accompany children to the store.

I don’t believe anyone on this board has suggested that kids be given complete freedom. Rather, that we should set high expectations for them and give them the freedom to make some choices on their own (more and more as they get older) and accept the consequences for those choices. Let them stand up for their beliefs, and don’t assume they haven’t truly thought about why they’re protesting. Inform them of the facts, the consequences, and respect them for the decision they make! And maybe even listen to what they have to say…

By jim d

April 18, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

HB,

Your 11:23 today.

I couldn’t agree more.

Let me add though that I’ve seen these average kids prove themselves at multiple levels only to be required to have to to it time and again by an adult that was unable to except that the kids really did have it down. I’ve also seen the discouragement in the faces of these kids when they are forced to continue proving to an adult they they do posess the skills. I’ve seen some lost from the program due to this same abusive power being applied by an adult.

I believe if we truly teach our children anything, that we must trust they are capable of doing what it is they have learned and that we must encouage them to demonstrate leadership by sharing the knowledge that they posess, with their peers. I guess I’m of a mindset that the best way to learn something is to teach it, and the kids I work with do just that.

I can honestly say I’m extremely proud of each and everyone of them.

By jim d

April 18, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

Here’s a story about a bunch of the selfish little buggars that prove kids aren’t capable of making good choices.

http://www.ajc.com/living/content/living/stories/2007/04/17/0418lvreal.html?imw=Y

By JustMe

April 19, 2007 8:06 AM | Link to this

jim d-

You remind me of a particular student that I currently teach that is a self-proclaimed “a*******hole.”

I never said that kids aren’t capable of making good choices. I said that kids need adult guidance and supervision.

You are as thick headed as Stone Mountain.

By JustMe

April 19, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this

HB -

I really have not moderated my position. I have always said that children need adult supervision/monitoring/guidence. And, that includes purchases of clothes or whatever.

By JustMe

April 19, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

And jim d-

That story has NOTHING to do with the topic. It is a story about a young girl wanting to be prom queen. What choice did she make?????

And, if you are referring to the students that voted for her, that choice is not a life decision that I have been discussing.

You truely are an idiot.

By HB

April 19, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

I see the relevance. In one school, students rallied support for a long-time, dismissed employee. In another, they rallied support for a young woman who wanted to be prom queen. In both, they found something they felt strongly about and tried to do what they felt was the right thing, defying the streotype of teenagers as obnoxious, selfish brats.

By jim d

April 19, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this

just me,

do the kids a favor——quit teaching.