Get Schooled

By Jeff

April 12, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

Without students being held responsible for their actions - both in terms of earning their grade and their behavior in class - NOTHING will change, no matter how good the “standards”.

By jim d

April 12, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

True jeff,

but on the orher side of that coin we could say that no matter what the standards are set at—without teachers and school administrators willing to implement them equally and students eager to step up to the challenge—Nothing will change.

By jim d

April 12, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

Then again, perhaps Kathy with a “K” Cox should take a step back to see what is being delivered to her child from a parents perspective rather than as a politican.

By V for Vendetta

April 12, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

Blah Blah Blah, is anyone really surprised by this? Ever since NCLB paved the way for ignoring the upper echelons of education we have been gladly participating in it. Whatever Cox is saying to justify doesn’t make it so. The problem is two fold as Jeff and Jim have demonstrated. We’ve got a lot of changing to do!

By HS Teacher Too

April 12, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this

Maybe some of you more enlightened folk can explain this to me, but I fail to understand how “raising the bar” for the other kids will negatively affect the gifted kids, who have to test into gifted programs to begin with. Sure, the standards will end up being watered down, etc., etc., (this is well-covered territory) so that we can say “look how much material our kids cover!”

But — and if I am missing the big picture here, please help me out, it’s been a crazy week — I really don’t see how this will mean gifted kids get short-changed.

And trust me, I am a BIG supporter of gifted kids and programs to support their needs.

By Ernest

April 12, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Bridgett, you should coordinate with Dana Tofig to have Kathy Cox spend a few hours with the GetSchooled bloggers. She would get an earful about what many perceive is happening to gifted students. Personally speaking, I feel my children aren’t being challenged as much due to the amount of time spent on CRCT prep.

By Jeff

April 12, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

HST2:

The way I read this “controversy” is that it is specifically regarding those middle school students taking HS courses right this minute that will not exist (and thus not “count”) when they actually get to the HS level.

By Lisa B.

April 12, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

All I know is that my 7th grade son NEVER has math homework (or any other homework for that matter) and earns very high A’s. I had always told him middle school would be tough, and that he would have pre-algebra in 7th grade so he could take algebra in 8th. Well, that’s not happening. My son’s middle school was recently recognized as an outstanding middle school in the Southeastern U.S. The school earned some type of award, the name of which escapes me. The boy is smart, but not a complete genius, and I don’t believe he should be breezing through middle school like he is. I have seen no sign of the expected challenges.

I hope he’s ready for all those AP classes in high school. From what I see, especially in math, the work is LESS rigorous than it was before GPS. Now all the kids take the same math. There is no way that is as rigorous as moving the high level kids on into algebra without having to wait for the slower kids to keep up. Grrrr.

By HS Teacher Too

April 12, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Thanks — that was the best I could get out of it as well. Heck, in Gwinnett kids who take Algebra 1 in any grade lower than 9th don’t get credit for it anyway — if these kids really are gifted, they will surely pursue math for all four years regardless; it’s not as if they are the kinds of kids who need to count credits toward graduation. So I still don’t get it.

No one is saying the kids won’t place into the next course, are they? (Or have I mis-read?) Just that they won’t receive credit for Algebra 1?

I just don’t get it; no one CARES about how many credits you graduate high school with, do they???

By Lisa B.

April 12, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this

Ernest;

You are absolutely right about time wasted on CRCT prep. The prep time hopefully helps the struggling kids, but you ought to see the eyes of my gifted students glaze over when I throw another transparecy on the overhead or pass out the practice books. At least with the transparencies, I can divide the students into teams and make answering questions a competitive game with prizes.

By Jeff

April 12, 2007 2:47 PM | Link to this

HST2:

From what I have seen, HS is just like college in that they don’t care HOW many credits you have, as long as yourCredits >= requiredCredits….

By HS Teacher Too

April 12, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

LisaB,

Allow me to play Devil’s Advocate for a second. You said your son is smart, but not a genius — but remember that it is still ultimately middle school and there are a lot of years of school —with good teachers and bad teachers — left for him to go. If the classes all had the rigor that we complain is lacking in high school, and even the smart kids had occasion to “struggle” in middle school, just think how turned off they would be to it all by the time they got to high school. I remember my own middle school experience as being a joke as well — even the gifted classes didn’t have a work load you might expect — but by the time I got to high school instead of being turned off by challenging classes, I embraced them with an attitude of “finally!” And I did exceptionally well in them.

I don’t think you have to worry about how he might fare in AP classes in high school. My guess is that he will embrace the challenge — there might be a learning curve for him to have to buckle down a little more than he is used to, sure, but he would have had to face such a challenge at some point. I don’t see any harm in waiting until high school.

My two cents …

By HS Teacher Too

April 12, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

That’s what I thought, too. And anyone who takes the classes they are supposed to take, and doesn’t consistently fail this, that, and the other, will graduate with plenty of credits — accelerated kids probably have very little to worry about in that regard! So, worrying about not getting credit for Algebra 1 seems to me to be silly, when the kids will still ultimately get credit for four years of math.

By KA

April 12, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

Like I said before, ‘the Emperor has no clothes,’ and woe to those who try to tell her….

By thomas

April 12, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

I am a fourth grade teacher who has taught in two schools in two different systems. I can unequivocally say that with the exception of the gifted teacher, nobody at school is really concerned whether gifted children are being challenged. Most administrators, principals, literacy coaches, and teachers are concerned with students passing the CRCT. ALMOST ALL OF THE RESOURCES ARE DIRECTED TOWARDS THE MIDDLE, BOTTOM (Low achivers, SPED, ESOL, etc.) AND TROUBLEMAKERS (behavior problems).

Since most gifted students can easily meet the little requirements of classwork and are not seen as a potential liability during test time, they are put on the backburner.

The once a week, pullout gifted class is the next thing to be phased out. Gifted inclusion is now in the mix. Now the gifted teacher is “serving ‘high potentials’”. Soon she will be pulling in the regular classroom to “serve” gifted students like the SPED and ESOL teachers are now doing. She will be reduced to “serving” these kids 45-50 mins a day if the kids are lucky. My belief is that after the “push-in” racket has taken hold, it will last a few years, and slowly trickle away. Gifted education will be a thing of the past.

By SET

April 12, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

If a child is really “gifted” they will probably be going to high school at a college campus high school program (UC Berkeley admits selected high school students to it’s regular program every year) - or an elite college prep high school.

The usual idea of “gifted” programs I seem to see in the Government Public High Schools are high normal kids in classes without ghetto trash. They call that gifted.

Before Dr. Edward Teller (father of the hydrogen bomb) died in 2003 he was conducting (into very old age) high school student seminars for high IQ students from all around the Bay Area. I believe the classes were conducted at the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory. Now that’s a gifted program, classes conducted by historical figures.

So I’m a little skeptical of Educrats thinking that they can have a truly “gifted” student program in their rancid public schools. The real thing pits seriously bright students against ordinarily bright college students. Think Doogie Houser.

By Lisa B.

April 12, 2007 3:25 PM | Link to this

Thanks HS. You make a good point which I hadn’t thought about. Middle school gifted classes seem to be more “fun” type learning experiences and enrichment projects. My son loves that sort of thing, but I’ve been a little concerned. I should just be happy he doesn’t ever have homework. We have free time to pursue other interests after school :-)My son is active in all sorts of things.

By HS Teacher Too

April 12, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

SET,

Here in Georgia we do have (at least in some systems) a pretty decent gifted program. At least in theory, the students (okay, let me add, at least in high school) are separated into smaller, test-in-only classes, with a gifted-certified teacher.

I have seen some of these classes be wildly successful; unfortunately I have also seen the backlash of parents who believe that any student who is gifted must always, automatically get As. If the class is truly as rigorous as it SHOULD be for the gifted kids to be challenged, that’s the exact OPPOSITE of what happens. (See our discussion of why these classes “might” need to be rewarded with gpa points from the other day!)

In any case, to say that the truly gifted will go the route of joint-enrollment is hardly the case here in Georgia. There are at least ample opportunities for the kids to take AP and gifted classes in their home systems — disclaimer: at least in sytems with which I am familiar, and at the same time there is a sort-of stigma attached to leaving early for joint-enrollment.

By catlady

April 12, 2007 3:37 PM | Link to this

My experience of gifted education in Georgia has not been positive. Too little money, time, and thought have been invested. We could be doing something incredible, amazing, and forward looking, instead of just “serving” (how McDonald’s a word) these kids. In the past gifted designation has helped “protect” kids from being in classes with many unmotivated, lazy, disruptive students (gifted kids can be all of the above) but with inclusion it will just be more of the same. Less than nothing.

By Jeff

April 12, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

HST2:

“stigma”: explain. (This is purely a search for more social knowledge for me. It is quite possible that it existed even in my case and I simply did not see it, hence my desire for - in the words of Number Five - INPUT!!)

(BTW: One of my quirks, due to the Asperger’s: There are times (such as now) when I become very much like Number Five…

By Teacher, Too

April 12, 2007 3:50 PM | Link to this

I teach gifted middle school. I have taught in three Georgia counties, and I can honestly say that my gifted kids would have no challenge at all if they were not in my class. They don’t have homework in any of their other classes, and their teachers teach to the low/average student. My students have to study and work for their grades. Many of my students e-mail me from high school, thanking me for providing them with a rigorous class. However, they surely didn’t appreciate my efforts at the time! :)

So, do the gifted kids need differentiated classes? Emphatically- yes. And those classes should be more rigorous than the “regular” classes. (At my school, we blend the classes, so very high achievers can also be scheduled in as long as they meet certain standards and as long as we maintain the federally-mandated class size to receive funding.)

By Blind Homer

April 12, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this

SET - The requirements are met by somewhere around 10% of the students, translating to about 120+ on a standardized IQ scale, less than 2 standard deviations. The program is frequently a once a week ‘pullout’ session in elementary school and somewhere between middle and high school it morphs into Honors and AP classes. The only high school program for the truly gifted that I am aware of is the Governor’s Honors Program where 600 or so of the best and brightest get six weedks of intensive study at Valdosta State in the summer.

By scott

April 12, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

Set = Don Imus I finally figured out who you really are. Once you get fired from CBS you will really have a lot of time to blog all day long.

By ECLB

April 12, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this

I’m happy for Mrs. Cox that her children’s needs are being met in their classes. My children’s are not. Actual differentiation occurs very little in most classrooms. Certainly, it might be possible for a teacher to give a different spelling list or even several, or provide math work a year or two ahead. When you have gifted children working 2 or more years ahead, that is where the breakdown occurs. Is it fair to expect a third grade teacher to differentiate their curriculum so that a child who is on a seventh grade level can feel challenged? Lumping all gifted children in the same classroom is as ridiculous as putting all mentally handicapped children in the same classroom and thinking their needs are the same. A child with an IQ of 35 differs as much from a child with an IQ of 85, as two kids with IQs of 130 and 180. How ignorant of our state superintendent to think that gifted children in GA are not being left behind. Ability grouping students may not always be popular, but it can certainly allow those children whose gifts far exceed their grade level to have appropriate education. At least we live in a state fairly receptive to homeschooling. If only more state universities had a way for kids who are ready for college classes at extremely young ages (10-14) attend. Fortunately, other states do!

By HS Teacher Too

April 12, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Just from what I have seen, the kids seem to think that leaving HS early to take classes at, say, Perimeter, is not as valuable as staying and taking 4 or 5 AP classes. Depending on where they are applying to colleges, it might be true … the AP scores might translate/transfer better. I think part of the stigma is “are you smart smart, or just smart?” There might be a status thing that the AP kids are actually “more gifted” than the JE kids, who after all, don’t have to be tested gifted.

But honestly, I think it is also a social thing — who wants to give up prom, driving, friends, etc., when they don’t have to …

This is just from the scuttlebutt I picked up from the kids talking.

Nice reference to the borg, btw.

By SET

April 12, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

I suppose I meant to say that a real gifted program is not exactly pleasant for the student given this gift. They will no longer be with peers who are their families and neighbors. IQ distribution doesn’t work that way. They will be pitted (for once) against other students their age who can match their best work, or put up against students older than them who have the advantage of an adult cerebral cortex as well as being in “normal” placement for the work at hand.

Even more interesting, when they go home at the end of the day they will realize thatthey are unable to fully share their wonderful new homework with family and former social peers.

What bothered me about the trailers for the movie “Akeeliah and the Bee” was that there was no apparent portrayal of the hate that a black girl would experience from other black children for accellerating in an academic field such as the spelling bee.

Being accellerated is a good thing but it really does have to be managed. FOr the Public Schools to breathlessly proclaim that they have a gifted program that really consists of having those students operate at just above Iowa grade average sounds like a con.

I have a younger sibling who’s young daughters are supposedly in a “gifted” program. I find their knowledge and analytical skills to be completely deficient considering their age. They have terrific self esteem, though. Too much self esteem - it is unearned and undeserved.

I told the 15 year old at the Easter Dinner table that some of her “philosophies” guarantee her becoming a Victim in the future and had no basis in any history, current events, or recorded human behavior. She was espousing the usual Marxist pap as opposed to anything she’d developed by reading any accounts of human events.

In questioning her about the underpinning of things she said, she had no data about much of anything. I’m not saying the 15 year olds have to read all of “The Rise And Fall Of The 3rd Reich” but they don’t even consult reference works. They parrot their Marxist teachers and are not being trained to read and think critically. She will not compete well against Jewish and Asian kids. Not to mention the Hispanic bright and amitious kids. And she doesn’t seem to worried about it either. She’s “gifted”!

By HS Teacher Too

April 12, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

wait, was that a borg reference?! Oh, it’s been a long day!

By Jeff

April 12, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

HST2:

Right genre (somewhat), wrong movie.

It IS a sci-fi movie…

Sci-fi COMEDY…

Short Circuit…

Number 5 is ALIVE! :P

By fed up

April 12, 2007 6:01 PM | Link to this

Cox if full of it. Gifted children are screwed.

By Lisa B.

April 12, 2007 6:46 PM | Link to this

I will be the first to admit I probably do not do a great job differentiating instruction for the small number of gifted kids in my class. In fact, when discussing differentiation, the gifted kids are not even discussed. The elementary teachers in my school focus primarily on the kids who barely passed the test last year, and the ones who didn’t pass. We write a lot in my class, and the gifted and smarter kids are allowed to spend more time on reseach for reports, or delve deeper into character development for fictional writing. Of course, the brighter students read more difficult books. We have leveled reading groups. Some of the work, though, just has to be done. All the kids in my class take the same Social Studies, Science and math tests. The brights make 100’s and the slow kids make 50’s. The kids don’t get to take differentiated CRCT tests based on ability, so my students don’t get different tests either.

By Janine

April 12, 2007 6:57 PM | Link to this

Agreed, fedup… Actually, I think the gifted students were pretty well challenged 15 or 20 years ago, at least in my county…Dekalb. However, In my 32 years of teaching though, I have watched those students pushed to the end of the line and left to gather the proverbial chaff from the fields. And ,… No Child Left Behind sounded the Death Knell loud and clear.

By Janine

April 12, 2007 7:02 PM | Link to this

When Cox says,.,,”I get emotional about this, too…”As a parent of a gifted child, who is in the middle of all this curriculum change, I can say my gifted child is being challenged and my gifted child is getting better standards and a better set of expectations.“…SHe may be right.,…her kids may actually be getting those better standards and expectations….but better than WHAT???? Is oatmeal so much better than gruel?? And if her child is being challenged in GA’s gifted programs, I submit they surely are not very gifted!!!!

By WFC

April 13, 2007 8:38 AM | Link to this

Thirty year veteran (now retired) history teacher here with a tenth grade son (labeled “gifted”) enrolled at Northview High School (Fulton County.) My observations:

By Molly

April 13, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this

Gifted children in elementary school receive a few hours each week of pull-out enrichment class. The value of this class depends entirely upon the abilities of the teacher. Those I have encountered range from mediocre to excellent. What happens (or more often, doesn’t happen) in the regular classroom probably has a bigger impact. I hear lots of talk about differentiated instruction, but it is a rare teacher who can provide meaningful instruction to the highly gifted student while juggling the needs of all the other students in the class.

Highly gifted children need acceleration, not just enrichment, to meet their full potential. Schools and districts vary greatly in their willingness to accelerate gifted students, despite a wealth of research showing acceleration (either single-subject or whole grade) to be the single most effective tool for educating the gifted. Considering that there is virtually no cost to accelerating a gifted child, it ought to be one of the first options considered. To learn more about the research on acceleration, go to www.nationdeceived.org to read the Templeton National Report.

DeKalb County parents who are interested in working to improve gifted services in the DeKalb Public Schools are invited to join a newly formed advocacy group by sending an email to gifted_advocates-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 9:01 AM | Link to this

Molly (and several others):

Why are you letting the school dictate what your child learns? Take them to a library! Go to a bookstore! Heck, even the Books a Million in Albany has a TON of books on nearly any subject you want to learn!

Think your child isn’t being pushed hard enough? TAKE SOME INITIATIVE AT HOME! Get the kid out from in front of the TV and put a book on the Founding Fathers in his hands! (There is actually one out right now that I REALLY want that explores the issues surrounding Marbury v Madison and the conflict between Madison and Jefferson!)

The BN on Barrett Pkwy in Kennesaw has some GREAT math books, inlcuding a really good one on Godel’s Incomplete Theorem, among several others.

Science, I’m not as sure about… never really been my cup of tea.

Lit: Name a book, your local bookstore probably has it in stock.

Again: TAKE SOME INITIATIVE AT HOME!

By KA

April 13, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this

Jeff is right, parents should be teaching/supplementing their kids’ education. I considered the school to be our partner in my kids’ education, not the sole source. That said, I don’t think near enough is done for the gifted students, especially in the elementary grades. My kids had one pullout gifted class several times a week in elementary, which was pitiful! Why can’t the schools start ability grouping from day one and let the students advance as they achieve instead of holding the smart kids back until they are another year older?

By wwww

April 13, 2007 9:20 AM | Link to this

Jeff: as a teacher, I understand where you’re coming from, telling parents to “take some initiative at home”. I agree to an extent. But really, we all pay taxes to the school systems who SHOULD be doing this. I agree with the above posters who’ve said gifted ed is sorely lacking in public schools. There will be some improvements coming to my school next year, actually more pull out classes for gifted, which is how it should be done. You cannot differentiate instruction adequately to gifted, on level, low level and sped in the same class. Not happening. Guess who gets left out? The gifted - they will succeed no matter what. It’s the lower kids we’re held accountable for, and so they are the ones who get the most resources.
Thanks, NCLB, for totally screwing the public school system even further.

By WFC

April 13, 2007 9:21 AM | Link to this

Jeff—- I take a lot of initiave at home. I have great discussions with my son… Plato vs. Aristotle, the role of religion in history, Islamic jihads of the 19th century (the Sudan), the causes of WWI, the rise of Hitler, etc. None of this forives the fact that a supposedly great school like Northview seldom challenges him.

By jim d

April 13, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this

WFC,

As a veteran parent of 38 years, with children that have children out of school as well as having one still in high school myself, I totally agree with your observations. However, I would like to expound on your comments.

Whether your child is gifted or not it is a parent’s responsibility to challenge their children to learn. The public school system was never and never will be capable of doing that for all students. By design, the public schools goals are to teach those at the bottom of the intelligence ladder enough to survive. This has been driven home time and again over the years as teachers have explained they never had concerns about my children because “they were smart and would do well.”

Jeff, Dead on target with the reading comments. Reading is knowledge. But don’t stop there. Travel; make your vacations a learning experience for your kids. Forego the amusement parks and see the world. Learning opportunities abound and can be real fun if a parent will just take advantage of them. (anyone interested in a guided rafting trip through the Grand Canyon with 2 guides that hold masters degrees in Geology and history contact me and I’ll gladly hook you up)

By ECLB

April 13, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

Jeff, why do you assume that parents who complain that their gifted children are not being challenged are not taking initiative at home? As a parent of two highly/profoundly gifted children, I have yet to meet another parent of a highly or profoundly gifted child who did not invest an amazing amount of financial resources and time trying to meet their child’s needs outside of the classroom. I’m not referring to the mildly/moderately gifted child, whose needs can probably be met with some sort of gifted program and some basic enrichment (like Saturday School at GSU). I’m referring to those children whose academic needs are many years ahead of their age peers. They are the ones who are getting the proverbial shaft in education today. Assuming that parents of these children are sticking them in front of the TV after school or on weekends, instead of the reality I know of, which is nearly daily trips to a library or bookstore (since the school library long ceased to be a place to find books at their level), seeking out subject tutors at either a college or professional level (for the children who need someone to talk to about the subjects they are interested in), sports activities (for those inclined, because, they are still children with high energy levels) or artistic/musical endeavors (because many of these children are also gifted in multiple ways). My older child has mentioned many times that there is not enough time in the day for all the activities and learning he wants to accomplish, after being in school all day. He averages 4 hours of reading a night, of books on HIS level, on top of the ludicrous books he is required to read that are at grade level. While many districts may have a policy in place for subject and/or grade acceleration, the reality is that parents are routinely stonewalled when they request the meetings to determine if their child is eligible. Acceleration is discouraged for the “emotional well-being” of the child, despite the debilitating depression of the child who is kept at grade level. Apparently the angst that will come many years down the road at being the last child to drive tops the suffering of a suicidal child who cannot make the teachers understand why he is so miserable with bullying and lack of friends who understand him. Again, for those parents who have the time and inclination to homeschool their highly and profoundly gifted children, at least our state offers that flexibility. For those children whose families cannot make that work, for whatever reason, they suffer when their needs are continually NOT met!

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 9:40 AM | Link to this

WFC:

I was a gifted child - identified long before the current watered down standards. RARE was it that I was challenged. (Though math - surprisingly enough, given that I eventually spent a year teaching it - gave me FITS!) That said, I went out and sought my own avenues of research. I read encyclopedias like most kids my age read Goosbumps. I would check out BIOGRAPHIES from the library at 10 years old. (And I’m talking bios on various political/ military leaders, not the latest pop band!)

My parents always supported me, and though they often SAID that “the school is not challenging” me, never once did they say - as many here are trying to - that the school should do more for ME. Instead, they said, “He will persue his interests and we will support him in that. The school is doing enough as is.” I was reading on a COLLEGE level by the time I left elementary school! Read my first Clancy in 6th grade! (After having read pretty much every article in the Young Students Learning Library encyclopedia set my parents had bought a few years earlier.)

Could the school keep up with me? Nope. My parents couldn’t even keep up with me! (Though they had the life experience and common sense, and still do!) Should the school have been expected to keep up with me? No! They really would have left kids behind if they had! Now, my parents DID push several times for me to be bumped up a few grades, but it was the policy of our system that that was not allowed. So we made do.

You know the ONLY times I EVER heard my parents actually COMPLAIN about the school system? After I made a few mistakes and teachers/ admin started pre-judging me over them. (But even all of that eventually worked out, indeed, without it happening I would not have met my fiance!)

THAT is what I get worked up about. Why do people insist the GOVERNMENT do everything for them? Have we REALLY become THAT lazy in the past 50 years or so????

By JustMe

April 13, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

IMHO, high school gifted students in GA are well served. Most public high schools offer AP courses and/or joint enrollment programs that challenge gifted students. The problems seem to be more in elementary and middle schools for the gifted students because there are no designated AP type courses. And, if those schools were to offer special “gifted” classes, then some people would scream against “tracking” so it is a no-win situation.

As long as “inclusion” is the education mantra, gifted students in elementary and middle schools will not be well served, IMHO.

By jim d

April 13, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

Dang Jeff,

I thought my kid was the only one to read a complete set of encyclopedias!

I guess we have even more in common than we thought.

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 9:56 AM | Link to this

jim:

The sad fact is that I STILL find myself reading random articles on Wikipedia at times…. :P

By KA

April 13, 2007 10:20 AM | Link to this

Jeff, Uh, parents of the gifted do know that their kids are self motivated. The point we are trying to make is that the schools are NOT accomplishing their primary objective of teaching when it comes to this particular group, the gifted. The public elementary and middle schools are failing to motivate, teach, encourage, or challenge the gifted. And yes if we send our kids to public (government) schools we do expect them to be taught, not bored, and not indoctrinated to accept achievement of lowered expectations! WFC had it right, we parents are challenging our kids at home! Now how about the schools doing their part?

JustMe, I agree that the HS’s are doing an adequate job with the gifted, but elementary and middle school are NOT.

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

KA:

So your child knew every single fact she currently now knows because she was born with it in her head or you taught it to her?

My point is this: Schools DO teach children of ALL abilitied EVERY DAY. Just because the teacher has to spend more time with the slower learners does NOT negate that she taught the gifted child the same facts. The gifted child simply mastered it far faster than the “normal” child who still needs more assistance.

Therefore, I object to the whining “but the school didn’t TEACH my child!” YES, they did!

By KA

April 13, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

jim d, you said, “By design, the public schools goals are to teach those at the bottom of the intelligence ladder enough to survive.” If YOU believe and accept this premise, then there will be no pressure on the system to ever change. The fact is that the system can change. There are many gifted teachers who are more than capable of teaching the gifted. The problem lies in the grouping of classes by chronological age, instead of by ability. Change is possible. BELIEVE!

By JustMe

April 13, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this

KA -

If I had kids, I would be okay with sending them to public elementary, but in middle school they would go to a private school. Then in high school, I would be sure to send them to a quality public high school.

IMHO, elementary is so very basic it doesn’t really matter. Public middle schools just seem to be a ‘black hole’ of education. They use excuses of hormones and protecting egos while promoting students that don’t learn a darn thing (not the teacher’s fault but rather the school system policy).

By KA

April 13, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this

Jeff, HELLO! We know the gifted are learning the same stuff as the slowest in the class. If you accept that the minimum is ALL that the school should do, well I am sorry for you. My point is that by grouping grades by chronological age, the system is retarding the progress of the gifted, who should be allowed to move ahead as they achieve. How much more could our gifted students achieve IF ONLY they were allowed to move ahead at their own speed? Boredom kills the spirit and the learning spark.

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this

KA:

Who is saying your child cannot move ahead at her own speed?

The State simply says “we are teaching this material at this age”. IT DOES NOT BAR YOU FROM DOING MORE AS A PARENT!! Your child already knows the content that I am teaching in 6th grade math? EXCELLENT! Make a perfect 100 at all times in the class if it is so easy. If not, sit back, pay attention, and know that even if you think you already know this, I’m probably going to manage to put a spin on it that you didn’t think about.

If you group by ability, you will have 7yos in with 17yos. Do you REALLY want your 7yo being influenced by that such?

By Ernest

April 13, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this

Molly, @ 8:50 you said, The value of this class depends entirely upon the abilities of the teacher regarding pullout instruction. Another key factor is the size of the gifted population at the school. Unfortunately when many principals have to make staffing decisions, they do so with a primary focus on the needs of the many. Keeping it real, when there is a small population of gifted students at a school, it is sometimes hard to get the right resource unless there are strong parent advocates.

Count me among those that would like to see teachers get a slight bump in pay for getting gifted certified. You would probably need to add another criteria to ensure they are getting it for more than the money but this might enlarge the pool of gifted certified teachers which could ultimately benefit all students.

By SET

April 13, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

I agree with the writers who stated acceleration is the way to handle gifted (meaning high IQ) kids. That way they have competition.

Sitting them in a classroom with each other at a typical nutcase public school doesn’t accomplish much other than intensifying the indocrination - this is essentially what is happening to my niece.

Accelerating them to classes with bright older students forces them to perform at a higher level with a room full of competitors. It does wonders for their smug self esteem also. They finally have to work to make the grading curve. Now there are certain social issues to watch for - sex and dating issues for one. But properly managed acceleration can be the best option.

And I’m tired of the politically correct term “gifted”. It’s not as if the kids have wings and a halo. The are HIGH IQ kids. They were born that way. It’s not a gift. It’s GENETICS people. In most cases their biological parents and grandparents are also high IQ. That doesn’t always mean they and their families have a lot of common sense. It also doesn’t mean they don’t have other issues from ADD, Bi-polar disorder to any number of things - you can be High IQ and special ed.

By KA

April 13, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

JustMe, elementary school does matter! Boredom sets in quickly for a bright student who sits idle becuase he/she has finished all of the work for the week, or the month! When my kids were in elementary I was in constant contact with their teachers asking them to give my kids more advanced material to work on, and guess what, they did. All three read voraciously, and my son was spelling college level words in the first grade. I volunteered a lot, helped with reading, designed a reading incentive program, and got to know who were the best teachers, and asked for those teachers for the next year for my kids.

And LOL I was the one who posted ages ago that my firstborn said that “middle school was the black hole in her education, and that she should have taken a sabbatical during those years!”

We don’t have to maintain the sad status quo. The system can and must change to really teach the gifted students.

By jim d

April 13, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

KA,

I have little doubt there are very competant teachers out there, and that change is possible. However we are talking about an entrenched educational system having to accept change. I guess we can hope and pray! But I’m not holding my breath.

Just me,

Looks like we may have some common ground, even though I’m stupid. Seems what you’d do if you had kids is exactly what I did do. It worked out very well by the way.

By KA

April 13, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

Jeff, Beating a dead horse here…. If the gifted kids do move beyond because of their own reading and research and enrichment at home, BUT the school is presenting them with material one, two or more grade levels behind their level, then the school IS failing to educate the gifted kids. You clearly accept that the school does not have a duty to challenge the gifted, so I am not going to argue the point further. As you were such a gifted child, wouldn’t it have been better to be allowed to move ahead in the school curriculum as you achieved, and not have to wait for the next year?

Here’s my model that I posted previously for ability grouping (not putting 7 and 17 yo’s in the same class):

Allow ability grouping in schools within 3-4 grade increments, ex. K-3, 3-5, 6-8, and 9-12. Ability grouping would allow the bright kids who are ready and willing to learn to be taught on pace with their abilities, and the students who need more time or are not ready would be placed in classes to allow a more measured progress. The poorly behaving slackers could be placed in their own classes to receive training in good behavior, discipline, study habits, and motivation.

By jim d

April 13, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

KA,

My expierence with gifted elementary was that my child was never bored—just overworked since he didn’t get time to do his class work at school because teachers had him helping the kids that needed help instead. So he got to bring home 4-5 hours of homework every day. (that really sucked for him and for us as a family)

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

KA:

I was fairly “average” within the gifted field, a few better, a few worse, most right there with me. Remember though, I was ready for college-level study in certain subjects at 5th grade. Your model fails to take that into consideration. Even in your model, a third grader ready to take HS classes would be moved to 5th grade. Is that “challenging” to this child? While I grant that it is more challenging than the 3rd grade level stuff is, I fail to see where the level of “challenge” you so desire is met. At most, it seems to me that instead of 8 hours of “boredom”, you’re probably giving him 7 - 7.5….

By KA

April 13, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

jim d, Yes the teachers had my kids helping the slow kids, too, when my kids finsihed their work! While it sounds good to help others, that should be a child’s voluntary decision, and not the first option presented to the smart child who should be continuing his or her own learning. These little gifted teachers aids can just as easlily be given advanced material to work on at their seats, and not be forced to help the slower kids. Sorry, but that is largely an abuse of power by the teachers!

By KA

April 13, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this

Jeff, the current school model is NOT serving the smart kids, so I proposed a reasonable change, and now you want to nitpick that it won’t serve ALL the gifted kids. WHATEVER floats you boat. If you are so smart, you come up with a better plan. The fact is that really brilliant children do go beyond and finish HS at 10 or 12 and go onto college. I am addressing the plight of the majority of SMART kids of HIGH IQ as SET pointed out who would be much more challenged in a group of their peers. Do you oppose grouping by ability? If so, why?

By KA

April 13, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

jim d, I told the principal and the teachers that they were to give my kids more challenging work to do during class, and not use them to tutor others, unless they volunteered.

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

KA:

My opposal is due to two simple reasons:

1) The only way to truly do ability grouping results in 7yos and 17yos in the same class.

2) Any other measure to control that fact STILL puts age limits, resulting in an undue complication of a system that already works for the majority of people.

Now, if someone could design a system that allowed ability grouping, kept the “7 vs 17” problem from happening, and was as simple as the current age-based system, I would be COMPLETELY for it.

Wait, someone already has…..

Home schooling….

:P

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this

Oh, BTW KA:

One of the reasons I have learned to talk about my ideas with people?

I have learned that while my idea may be good as far as what it intends to solve and its methodology, it may have holes, some of which may be fatal. If I talk about the idea, people can point out holes that maybe I didn’t see. Either I or we can then refine the idea to be both good AND solid…

Ah the joys of getting back to programming! (Though yes, the fiance would say that I am being “too technical” right now!)

By KA

April 13, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

Jeff, Give me some reasons why you cannot do ability grouping within age limits within the schools. And let’s look at what SET said, that the term “gifted” should be identified as High IQ kids. I agree, and if you group the high IQ kids together and let them move on as they achieve, then all of them will benefit and develop their brain power. Jeff, there is a difference between being exceptionally gifted in one area, as you say you were in math, and the kids that are just plain smart all around. The smart kids grouped together will naturally compete and challenge each other to develop their knowledge and thinking abilities. This is the group that the schools need to teach. The math or music savants will move ahead on their own in their specialty, as you apparently did. But there is whole class of bright students who are lying dormant in elementary and middle schools who could be blowing the roof off the test scores when they get to HS, IF ONLY someone would teach them as a group.

By KA

April 13, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this

Yes Jeff, that’s why most of us blog here. Blogging is thinking in public.

By geekmom

April 13, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

OK, so many of you seem to be teachers so analyze my life.

I have 2 boys in elementary. The 2nd grader has an IQ of about 133, the 5th grader is about 126. They attend schools in a district with a relatively high percentage of gifted children (about 25% in grades 2-12 are gifted ID’d.

The 2nd grader seems bored but loves his gifted pullout. He is very happy at school generally though and has a lot of friends. The 5th grader does seem challenged even in the regular classroom and absolutely loves school. Gifted seems to pretty much kick his behind (except in math).

My kids would no sooner read an encyclopedia for fun than they would jump off a cliff. Actually, they really would rather skip reading altogether most days and go out and play. They both read about 2-3 years above grade level though.

Are my kids just not “gifted enough” for there to be a problem with public school? Am I missing something or not asking them the right questions about their school day? Am I naive?

Do you think that since we have so many gifted kids in our system that the teachers can’t ignore them? How would you handle a class of 25 where 6-7 are gifted id’d? Y’all have me quite paranoid so I’d like to know what you think given my facts.

Thanks

By JustMe

April 13, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

jim d-

My, my! Aren’t you the sensitive one!

I never said that you were studid. I said that your idea of connecting teacher pay with student performance is stupid.

By JustMe

April 13, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

geekmom -

No, you are not missing anything. If you feel that your children are sufficiently progressing in elementary school, then nothing is wrong. As a parent of gifted children, you may want to expose them to extra educational things - going to museums, aquariums, etc. - to help them further develop their interest level.

I would recommend, however, sending them to private middle school. Public middle school seems to be too concerned with hormones and egos as opposed to learning content. There are a lot of unnecessary distractions away from the learning process and your gifted children should be focused. Find a good academic middle school that does not subscribe to the BS.

Then, if you live in an area of a good high school, they could return to the public high school. That would save you some money. And, your children can sign up for accelerated classes, AP classes (to get college credit), and maybe even do joint enrollment if it is offered between that high school and a local college.

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

KA:

If these kids were moved ahead as a cohort, and tested as such, your idea could work.

Such as: look at the Kindergarten class of 2008. Lets say that at this school, of the 200 kids in K, we ID 20 of them as “High IQ”. We attach a specific Elem level gifted teacher to these kids and put them in their own class. Teacher runs as fast as the students let her. If that means they get all the way through 2nd grade in thie Kindergarten year, fine. They are given the state mandated tests at every level, and are taught the state mandated curriculum at every level, they just happen to be going through it far faster than “normal”.

When they pass through all of the “Elem” level stuff, we hand them off to a 6-12 certified gifted teacher, who can then do the same thing through the rest of their career.

This would actually have to be set up similar to the “school within a school” concept, but it could be done. Three problems arise: A) you’re STILL waiting on the slowest of this group, although granted this slowest member is still probably faster than the “normal” children. B) What about differentiation (I’m thinking HS level here) among this group? What if certain ones can handle AP Calc but not AP Biology and vice versa?? If we split them, we force them into the “7 v 17” scenario. If we keep them together, we’re back to an enhanced version of the scenarios we are trying to fix. C) Elitism. “We’re the Smart group and you’re not!” (Honestly more worried about parental elitism than the child level though.)

By KA

April 13, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this

geekmom, I’m not a teacher, but a mom of three really smart kids, now in their 20’s, who went k-12 in GCPS schools, and who were classified as gifted. My comments are based on our experiences. The best that elementarty offered was when my kids were in classrooms with gifted certified teachers who did offer the smart kids higher level material. IMO the pull out classes were not as useful as having the regular classroom teacher who would challenge them in subject matter areas, not just pullout class puzzle solving.

Every child is different and not every smart person likes to read volumes, so don’t worry about your boys. Keep them challenged at home, talk to their teachers often, get their opinion and recommendation for challenging your children and be sure to address the ‘bored’ comment your son made.

By JustMe

April 13, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

KA -

I agree with you 100%.

However, this is not the current thought on education. ‘Inclusion’ means that all levels are in one room. This is because students can learn from each other - and the learning is not only academic. “Smart” kids can learn social skills from “dumb” kids. Also, the “smart” kids can learn about the diversity of the general population in this fashion as well.

I do not think that the advantages of ‘inclusion’ outweigh the disadvantages. Gifted (smart) kids are forgotten and the focus is on the middle or low level kids.

I fear that this will not change in elementary or middle public school until something major happens - such as a class action law suit against a large school system by a group of concerned parents/taxpayers.

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

geekmom:

Based on my experiences, I would say this:

Your kids are perfectly normal. Nothing unusual about them at all. Relax, have fun, and enjoy their innocence.

By KA

April 13, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this

Actually Jeff, I don’t think that kids even need to be tested and labeled as gifted. Starting in first grade, let the kids that achieve advance, and those that need more time stay put, and advance as they achieve. Labelling kids as gifted leaves a whole group of kids that either didn’t test because their parents didn’t ask for them to be tested, or who were tested, but didn’t score well enough. Some of us take tests very well, others not. Don’t isolate them as a cohort, be flexible, as some bright children mature later than others, may bloom later academically, and could then move ahead in their group. I think the system should be more fluid, and less label conscious. However, I do know that in the present systme that they rely on labels for funding gifted programs. IMO that’s the wrong way to manage. Change in the system is due.

HS already operates well in allowing kids to have class with their peers, CP, Honors, Gifted and AP, and more AP appears to be added earlier in HS each year.

By KA

April 13, 2007 12:39 PM | Link to this

JustMe, Thanks, and you are right, change is not likely unless someone sues, BUT (smiling) as the school systems are so afraid of lawsuits, then that may be just the ticket to getting something done!

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this

KA:

Without the cohort or some similar functionality, however, we still face the “7 v 17” case. Also, porous groupings will result in many of the problems we already have, which goes back to my “unneccessary complications” argument. And without having some set class size > 15 or so, you’re expending too many resources on the system level.

Like I noted earlier, the only way to have a true and flexible ability grouping system is home schooling. Anything else we either loose ability grouping or lose flexibility within the grouping.

By KA

April 13, 2007 1:02 PM | Link to this

Jeff, there would be different requirements for different sized schools but in large systems, such as Gwinnett where you commonly have 20 classes at each elementary grade level, they could easliy set up a fluid system in grade increments K-2/3, 3-5, and there would be no 7/17 yo combinations. Ditto for for a fluid system in middle school where classes could be set up for slow, average and fast learners. When the elementary and middle students achieve an objective during a six week period (or less), then move them on to the next level after the six week pd. The smart kids would be generally be moving up with each other, and the average/slow kids will move at their own rate. How is this unnecessarily complicating (whatever THAT means!)?

By KA

April 13, 2007 1:05 PM | Link to this

Jeff, you say it can’t be done, and I say with systemic changes we CAN get our smart kids a better public school education, the one they deserve!

By JustMe

April 13, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

Jeff -

I gotta disagree with you on this….

Years ago when I was in elementary and middle, we had 3 levels per grade: high, medium, and low. Students could move from 1 level to another based on their performance. And, class sizes were generally around 25 student per class.

There was flexibility in each grade, and there was enough variability within each level to accomplish the required learning.

That approach was thrown out of the window in favor of “inclusion” primarily because of the court cases involving special ed students….. thus starting the dumbing down of the curriculum that has brought us to NCLB.

By Jeff

April 13, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this

KA:

As noted earlier, that system STILL prohibits true “challenging”. Once the kid hits the top level within his age range - note that you still have them - he is stuck there, and will be stuck being “non-challenged” JUST as long as he is under the current system. THAT is where the “unneccessary complication” comes in. IF you’re going to put arbitrary age limits in, well, guess what? WE ALREADY HAVE THEM! Your system does NOTHING other than yet another shakeup of a system we already change FAR too often.

By KA

April 13, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

Jeff, allowing progressive movement within already established age groupings would absolutely allow the smart kids to advance their learning, better than what they are stuck with now in one size fits all in the same age grades. Is it just not in you to agree with me on any point? Did you see what JustMe said?

I’m outta here, have a nice weekend!

By decaturparent

April 13, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

I’m with KA, multi-age grouping wouldn’t be perfect since there would be a sort of educational “cork” at the top of each grade span. How about letting the kids who were at the top of a span but not old enough to go to the next span do some sort of independent study that utilized their skills from the past three years.

It wouldn’t be perfect, no system for the masses is. However, I’d rather have my kids bored once every three years or so than bored every single day of every single year.

By jim d

April 13, 2007 1:43 PM | Link to this

Just me,

What me sensitive? Not at all I was LMAO as I typed my earlier comment.

Geek mom,

I think many problems occur in class because regular teachers may not really understand how to deal with gifted kids. In light of that I’ve seen them give additional busy work just to keep gifted kids doing something.

Jeff,

He’s wearing out the wikipedia sites too! And if you need any of the time magazines for the past 3 years, just ask I’m sure they are stacked in the corner of his room somewhere.

KA,

Ability grouping does have some drawbacks if you object to large age differences. One possible solution would be to group by age and ability, which in itself might present some real logistics issues. Say you had a small group of students that were within four years of age that had somewhat close abilities in math. Create a class. Magnet schools might prove to be a partial solution. Specialty hi-tech schools may also prove to be helpful. Bottom line? There is no one solution and until politicians stop looking for a single cure-all many of our children will be stuck with mediocrity in education.

By KA

April 13, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

jim, that is what I proposed, look at my post @ 11:01 today

*”Here’s my model that I posted previously for ability grouping (not putting 7 and 17 yo’s in the same class):

Allow ability grouping in schools within 3-4 grade increments, ex. K-3, 3-5, 6-8, and 9-12. Ability grouping would allow the bright kids who are ready and willing to learn to be taught on pace with their abilities, and the students who need more time or are not ready would be placed in classes to allow a more measured progress. The poorly behaving slackers could be placed in their own classes to receive training in good behavior, discipline, study habits, and motivation.”*

By Tony

April 13, 2007 5:04 PM | Link to this

On soapbox.

The biggest crime against advanced students is required seat time in order to earn units for graduation. My two children have had to suffer through “required” courses such as health, world history, physical science, keyboarding, and others. This was all in the name of earning the credits to graduate. The seat time requirment establishes the basic requirement that to earn a unit, a students must attend classes rather than demonstrate proficiency. If proficiency were the reqirement, my kids could have skipped half of the high school courses and been off to college two years ago.

The gifted students are our inventors of tomorrow, yet we do so little to nurture their talents. We are more interested in having them do the same school courses as everyone else because that is how we’ve always done it!

While I believe that public education does a great job of giving a basic education to all and a good education to most, we are missing big opportunities with gifted kids. One of the major differences for gifted kids is their ability to quickly learn then to apply and synthesize. Yet most school assignments remain focused on “learning the material” and most teachers use the same mundane routine of assignments that kids must complete and turn in for a grade. Very few of the assignments actually require thought. “Write the definitions, answer the questions, work the problems. Oh yeah, your gifted so do the extra problems, too.”

Off soapbox.

A solution: The state graduation rules need to allow students opportunities to demonstrate proficiency on required content rather than wasting a child’s time with a course whose content is already mastered.

By KA

April 13, 2007 5:33 PM | Link to this

Tony, well said, except that IMO world history is important.

By Tony

April 13, 2007 7:29 PM | Link to this

KA, agreed. World History is important when a student has not already mastered the content. As with many of the other requirements for graduation, they are also important, but when students can demonstrate mastery or proficiency there should be an exemption. Otherwise, time is wasted!