Get Schooled

By jim d

April 10, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

As I’ve stated time and again. It should be a reinbursement program given to every kid that is able to graduate from a georgia high school provided they can pull the grades in college. Pull the grades get reinbursed—fail at your own expense.

Clean—simple and unincumbering.

By Jeff

April 10, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

Is it time to make HOPE competitive rather than an entitlement?

YES

Should an honors class have more weight than a regular class? YES@

@: ONLY when an honors class at Marietta High means EXACTLY the same thing as an honors class at Randolph County High means the same thing as an honors class at Parkview High means the same thing as an honors class at Cass High (Bartow County)… you get the idea….

Having worked in Randolph and Newton High in Covington, I can tell you FOR A FACT that Honors classes are not equal. Heck, I TAUGHT “Advanced Geometry” at Newton…. there was NOTHING “Advanced” about it. Not that I didn’t try! Every time I tried to go fast, students, parents, or admin (or some combination) would complain that I was being “too hard” on them….

By HS Teacher Too

April 10, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

“But I honestly don’t understand what all the fuss is about. After all, there’s no limit on the number of HOPE scholarships awarded. If a kid graduates from a Georgia high school with a ‘B’ average, he or she can get HOPE — regardless of the quality of a class schedule.”

Bridget — the fuss is multi-faceted.

First, we have students who OUGHT to be taking on greater challenges deciding to take easier classes to “ensure” that they do well. This does the capable students a disservice, because they don’t really learn anything by being in the easier classes, and it does society a disservice, if you will, because we are not training these kids to be critical thinkers — in fact, we are training them to take the easy way, sure-shot way out.

Second, it does the TRUE CP kids a disservice. Although CP classes aren’t graded on a curve, we’ve all sat in classes where there was a small pocket of kids who belonged in a more challenging class. It hinders the ability of the middle-of-the-road kids to get the education THEY deserve, because it alters the pace and/or dynamic of the class. The advanced kids are bored, the kids who belong in the class are lost. They are often intimidated, won’t ask questions, etc., etc. You can imagine the many ways this plays a role.

We lament all the time that our kids don’t know how to think critically. Well, by having this counter-intuitive reward for taking the easy route, we are perpetuating that problem. In fact, think of the greater life lesson we are teaching these kids!

I agree that honors classes are widely disparate from school to school — heck, even from teacher to teacher within the same school, same course! This is why I believe FIRMLY that the HOPE ought to be earned based on college grades, not high school grades. At some point, even if students take “chump” classes as freshmen, they will have to settle into their majors, and presumably the content-area classes are more rigorous.

Nonetheless, no one can argue that some majors are inherently more challenging than others (and are often graded differently — curve versus no curve, etc.) Thus, as I have said many times, there ought to be a floating scale for GPA requirements based on major. For example, a psychology major (for example, don’t shoot me!) should have a higher standard to maintain than an engineering major.

By JustMe

April 10, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

jim d-

Again, as you so often seem to do, you come up with a “simple” solution to a problem more complex than you realize. If we were to implement your suggestion, the colleges in GA would be even more ‘dumbed down’ then they already are in order to maximize their income. There are numerous so-called “colleges” throughout GA that offer courses with content taught in middle school or even elementary school. Hope should not enable or encourage this.

Some (more) colleges would begin offering (more) meaningless degrees with (more) meaningless courses to get (more) people to spend 4 years using HOPE.

Made only a 850 on the SAT? No problem! There is a college for you! And, we can assure you to get your college diploma in four years with grades to maintain your HOPE (even though the diploma won’t be worth the paper it is written on).

By jim d

April 10, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

HST II,

I must disagree, we are teaching them critical thinking skills and they are demonstarting how well they were learned by elcting an easier route to a state funded higher education. How can you fault a child for that? Personally I’ll be upset if they change it at this point, as my gifted child elected to enjoy school. He figured out real quick that he could maintain an A-B average, have more time for extracurriculars and thoroughly enjoy high school while taking CP classes, widening his horizons with some interesting electives. That—appears to me to be using critical thinking skills!

By jim d

April 10, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

Just me,

I fear you fail to have much faith in college admissions.

One thing to consider—I’ve seen students that struggled, barely making it through High school that excelled in a college environment. They system currently penalizes students like that.

Colleges to have an accreditaion process, don’t they? Dumbed down curriculums wouldn’t survive long.

By HS Teacher Too

April 10, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

jimd —

We are talking about two different “threads” of critical thinking. I don’t disagree with your perspective, especially given the system we currently have. I just think it is a crying shame that kids are put in that position.

I can absolutely appreciate the choice your son (and many like him) made regarding freeing up some time, etc. etc. But at the same time, if they had been rewarded, instead of penalized, for taking more challenging courses, there is a different kind of thinking embedded in those courses, and a different kind of reward both for the students and for society.

What I mean is that arguably — or at least hopefully and theoretically — those courses are richer. So a student might choose to take a class where — because it is by definition more challenging — he has the opportunity to dig a little deeper and actually learn more.

The thing that I think is the gravest shame is that we are forcing kids to make these choices (easy CP or challenging Honors/AP) because there is no EXTRNISIC reward for trying to push themselves toward a higher standard. Argue intrinsic rewards all you want (you’ll be a better person, etc., etc., as I just did) but to effectively PUNISH the kids who take that chance and risk the lower grade is just not right. There ought to be extrinsic rewards as well, so that kids might be in the position to effectively weigh more meaningful options: “I know I might have less time for (xyz), but I will also get the gpa points for taking (abc), which I think will be a better class for me anyway …” Heck, even if all it is is INTERESTING to them, that’s valuable. Why not let a kid take a chance on a higher-level class that’s interesting, and not HAVE to worry about the damaging effects to their GPA?

So, that is why I stand where I do on this issue.

I hope this makes sense. I am trying to multi-task here!

By JustMe

April 10, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

jim d-

Last week, I saw a televised course that was taped from Darton College. It was supposedly a college level introduction to algebra (I think officially called Intro to College Algebra).

This college is not very large, but it attracts many “students” locally. And, I would bet that most, if not all, are on HOPE.

This course - at least as much as I could watch in horror - was primarily about how to add, subtract, multiple and divide whole numbers. Towards the end of the “lesson” the “college professor” did introduce the concept of a variable in math - gulp!

I simply do not think that HOPE money should be spent for this. That content is taught in elementary and middle school. If a student goes all of the way K-12 and gets a high school diploma without knowing this, then shame on us and that is one problem. But, allowing HOPE to be used in this fashion is another problem that can be solved.

With limited HOPE funds, I would like to see them used for the best and brightest students that are in the most dire financial need to attend college. That is just IMHO.

For those students that you mention that struggle in high school and wait to apply themselves in college, I would suggest for them to wake up and smell the coffee. They need to apply themselves before college - that means high school or even before.

Jim, sometimes you are very confusing. On one hand you advocate for stronger high schools that are academically accountable, and then on the other hand you admit that it is okay for your own son to take it easy in high school academically. How many hands do you have? Are you really as much of a hypocrite as you sound?

By Jeff

April 10, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this

JustMe:

That Intro to Algebra course sounds like a 101 level, and if it was, then it is doing exactly what it both needs to and in fact is intended to: ensure that every single student on that campus has the same base level of mathematical knowledge. I OWN several books from those types of courses, and most of them use terms/ symbols no MS or HS student has ever seen. (And most of which are unreproducable even in Word!)

Yes, they teach such basic things as 1 + 1 = 2, but they do it with a completely new syntax that the knowldege of will be CRITICAL in later math classes.

And before you jump down my throat, please remember exactly who you’re talking to: a guy with a degree in Computer Science, an unofficial minor in Math Ed, who is a former MS AND HS teacher and a current professional programmer. (IOW: I think I know a little bit about math/ math theory….)

By HS Teacher Too

April 10, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

JustMe —

Are remedial classes covered by the HOPE?

(That is another problem I have — we can point in Gwinnett to how many of our students earn the HOPE, but apparently the percentages who get to college and have to take remedial classes are ridiculous and make a mockery of “earning” the HOPE to begin with!)

By War Eagle

April 10, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

Let’s jsut hope some Taxocrat doesn’t get in and starts spending it on pork projects like building towers to store peanuts and rewarding unwed mothers that birth a baby every other yr. Nowadays, you need all the help you can get with the rising tuition to feed the liberal professors at these schools of “higher” education. Or are they Football U’s now?

By HS Teacher Too

April 10, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

Jeff, Give me a break … Intro to College Algebra is NOT that kind of course, and with your credentials, you know that. Take a look at Darton’s home page. “College Algebra” is considered an upper-level math class. We’re not talking about linear algebra or vector theory here, where the notation is alien to anyone who’s not in the class.

But I am curious, what notation/syntax are you talking about?

By Jeff

April 10, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

Everyone:

This is the course description from the class JustMe describes:

MATH 0097 is an introductory algebra course designed for students with some mathematical background who need additional algebraic skills. Topics include fractions, decimals, signed numbers, linear equations, systems of equations in two variables, exponents, inequalities, polynomials, factoring, and graphing linear equations.

I know that KSU offers a very similar class with almost (if not the exact same) the same number and title.

I ALSO know that it is a difficult class for many students that had AP Calculus in HS!

Heck, my own mother took this class at KSU, and I had a hard time helping her at points! (To the extent that I had to look things up myself!) - And that is AFTER I was already teaching!

By JustMe

April 10, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this

Jeff -

What I said that I do disagree with is HOPE money used to re-teach content that students should have learned in K-12. Remedial courses, IMHO, should not be funded by HOPE, especially since there are obviously limited funds here.

I am not saying that remedial courses are “bad.” If a student did not learn the content in K-12, then they will need these remedial courses. But, let them pay for it out of their pocket (or with student loans).

By the way, if you want to list creditials, I have 3 college degrees (2 in engineering) and am working on a 4th. I have experience as a project manager in computer systems development (programmers and DBAs reported to me), and also teaching high school. I also know something about math/ math theory as well as pedagogy.

Should colleges be allowed to offer these easy courses or even easy majors? Sure. Should HOPE pay for them? Not in my opinion.

I hope that I have not sounded like I am jumping down anyones throat. I am simply expressing my opinion - after all, that is what blogs are for!

By Blind Homer

April 10, 2007 12:39 PM | Link to this

Since the HOPE funds aren’t limited so far, at least they’re sufficient to continue the current plan, why not continue to send off the ill-equipped (intellectual ability) and ill-prepared (medicore public schools) to be thinned out by the colleges (about 40% are losing the HOPE after one year)? Where’s the harm? And I doubt there are many Honors/AP students losing eligibility. In my daughter’s class they’re currently losing the valedictorian race to two kids who haven’t taken a single AP or Honors class, but again, so what? Idealistically, the more challenging education is clearly the better one. But realisticially, learning to manipulate the system, like jim d’s son, is the more valuable lesson.

By no money

April 10, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

put the income limits back in. anybody that makes 150,000 or more a year shouldn’t have any problem paying for their child’s college education. standards course vs. honors course, blah blah blah the entitled think their so called entitlement should be worth more than the ‘normal’ folk, I could go on but i think that’s enough to stir up the hornets’ nest of the so called entitled.

By Jeff

April 10, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

HST2:

Darton is a 2 yr school. College Algebra would be an appropriate upper level math class… it is a sophomore level class at KSU.

Look at the description I just gave. Basic linear algebra (systems of equations) is in fact covered in the class, along with several other topics that give students of ALL ages fits. (Heck, from teaching at MS/HS levels I would go so far as to say that EVERY SINGLE ONE of those topics gives students of all ages fits! Yet they are the very things that once you learn them you tend to say “but they’re not a big deal”… to which I would reply that you are exactly correct. But when you keep being told that they are “not a big deal” and yet you can’t understand them…. they become a VERY big deal!)

Notation wise, I’m talking set, group, and class notation. (The weird looking R for Real Numbers, C for Complex, N for Natural, etc. Even in word, you tend to do what I just did: make them bold, because the actual symbol is unavailable.)

By Deborah

April 10, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this

When I was a grad student at GA State, I, as part of a graduate assistantship, graded tests and tutored freshmen students in Freshman math courses. I would saw at least half of them flunked the course because they were ill prepared to handle the level of algebra, geometry and trig they needed to know to pass the course. Also, very few of them ever asked for any help. I had the same 10-12 students showing up at the tutoring sessions each week, out of probably 150 total students in the classes each quarter. Some of the students just drew a 0 on the top of their test and never even attempted to answer any questions. I’m not sure if all of these students were from GA High Schools, so I won’t knock GA in this case. The problem is we are not educating college bound students in math properly at the high school level anymore. Or, we are allowing unqualified students into GA colleges. One or the other. I think I agree with the poster who said you get your Hope money at the end of each semester/quarter after you have passed your classes and not before.

By JustMe

April 10, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this

War Eagle -

So much in your post on 12:24 rubs me the wrong way! First, all college professors are not liberal - as you so label them. Second, the actual college professor pay is very very low in GA. Similar to public schools in GA, the teachers/professors get very little of the budget pie. Most of it is eaten by administration, maintenance, etc. So, your comment about the professor’s salary is totally not true.

By Paul D

April 10, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

A few comments:

Any form of merit aid is going to have unintended consequences. Often times, these results are mitigated by other factors. A careful consideration would justify keeping the current policy which does not wieght the grades.

For example, many posts here have lamented HOPE’s negative incentive regarding HS students’ choosing of less academically rigorous courses. Talented students who hope to game the system in this way - merely to obtain the initial subsidy - may be very surprised that their self-selection out of more rigorous courses will doom their applications to the most competitive public colleges and universities. Georgia Tech and Georgia, for example, simply aren’t going to view these students as favorably in the admissions process. If a student isn’t challenging his or herself in HS, these higher prestige institutions will likely opt to accept a student with lower grades and/or test scores that did attempt a tougher course load. It doesn’t surprise me that leaders of elite secondary schools want to return to the weighting since it is likely that, with populations made up entirely of college bound students, almost all of their students would benefit relative to students at other high schools. With or without the added benefit for honors classes, I am sure Mr. Payne’s students will find a way to afford higher education.

In the end, students who make poor choices will limit their opportunity further down the line. Any self-interested student would opt for the harder courses so as to keep alive his or her admissions chances at the better schools - which generally lead to better access to jobs, professional and graduate programs.

To a second point made above, there is no doubt that already there are institutions in the University System of Georgia with open admissions and we as citizens do not want that to change. As stated, some students simply do not adapt well to the HS learning environment, but excel at the colleges. We could add that it is valuable to society to have points of entry to higher education for non-traditional and adult students as well as those from economically strained backgrounds. Institutions could (and perhaps do) abuse the subsidy by creating “gut” majors (and for what it is worth any institution with division one athletics has “gut” majors), but as already pointed out the accreditation process which all USG institutions must go through will ferret out these types of programs.

We should probably add that HOPE can be used at adult and technical colleges, but that these institutions do not award bachelor’s degrees (the “gold standard” now for higher education). That doesn’t mean that these programs are any less useful to society. Perhaps these are the institutions which “justme” refers to, but I would suggest that trade schools do serve a useful purpose for society and for their students.

As for the point that HOPE eligibilty should be based on college grades and not HS grades, only the initial allocation of the subsidy is based on HS grades. Once a student begins college, their grades in college determine continued eligibility. The argument that “jim d” seems to be making is that Georgia’s public institutions should be at least initially tuition-free for all GA HS graduates - a policy which philosophically is sound, but economically makes less sense - with college grades continuing to determine continued eligibility. “jim d’s” “reimbursement” idea is less appealing simply because it would limit HOPE’s benefit to families which could afford the upfront costs of college attendance (families which, very likely, would be sending their students on to higher educations even without the HOPE subsidy). This idea would likely leave behind (to borrow a phrase) students from poorer families and accentuate or even create inequalities in the education system.

By Jeff

April 10, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

HST2 and JustMe:

Besides, we’re going down the wrong track with our arguments. We are all math people, so we tend to look at math. But let’s face it, whether it be the MS/ HS/ or GenEd college math class, MOST students are going to get FAR more math theory than they will ever actually need.

Where I believe we have REAL cause to be concerned is that students are not learning basic logic nor how to construct a well reasoned argument in the pre-college years. Both our math and our social studies classes - the two fields that I think should handle the bulk of it - focus more on cramming more and more facts down their throats without ever giving them the tools needed to USE those facts.

THAT is what should make an “honors” class different…

By Rick in Lawrenceville

April 10, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

Base HOPE on college grades? Which college? I bet a small percentage of(<10%) students at MOST Georgia colleges would get a B average taking freshman classes at Georgia Tech!

Why should someone at Kennesaw State or Perimter College retain a HOPE scholarship taking easy courses competing against mostly mediocre talent…while very intelligence hard working students at Georgia Tech lose the HOPE scholarship.

Apologizing to anyone offended by my choice of schools, my point is that the HOPE scholarship is not always awarded and retained by the BEST and the BRIGHTEST!

By JustMe

April 10, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Real, complex, and natural numbers are all taught in K-12 and this is where any person with potential for college should learn them.

The problem as I see it is that we (our society) is pushing everyone to go to college when college is not meant for everyone - nor is a college education required for everyone. HOPE is continuing this ridiculous push. To accommodate “everyone”, colleges are offering more and more dumbed down courses and dumbed down degrees, primarily because they (the colleges) want their slice of the HOPE pie.

Back to topic - IMHO, I feel that AP courses should be given more weight for high school gpa: but only if that student scores well on the AP test. This is because there are too many AP teachers making it a “cake” course without really teaching the content - so the students sign up for that one in order to simply boost their gpa.

By JustMe

April 10, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

Rick in Lawrenceville,

I agree with you 100%. I have always thought that to be unfair to the student at a “harder” college in a “harder” degree program.

Lucy that majors in PE at Southwest GA Community College keeps her HOPE while Harry that majors in Mechanical Engineering at GA Tech losses his?

By leslie

April 10, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

Yes HOPE is flawed, but I have a different solution. Lets give HOPE to every student that is accepted into an accredited institution of higher learning. Isn’t the point to get more kids to continue their education? Doesn’t society benefit when everyone is more educated? Doesn’t a C student deserve to get an education? Doesn’t a student who didn’t learn basic math in high school make a better employee if he learns these skills after high school? Why are we limiting benefits to the best and brightest? There are lots of opportunities available to straight A students, but there is a lot of untapped potential in all the C students out there. HOPE is a great example of “teach a man to fish.” I would much rather pay for a C student to go to technical/trade school than pay for their Medicaid/Peachcare/food stamps/prison cell.

By HS Teacher Too

April 10, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I am off to a few appointments but will definitely jump back online later … I don’t want to get into this/that about the notation, but we might agree to disagree.

More later!

Paul D —

They TELL us that about colleges looking favorably to students who took the most rigorous programs available to them, but tooooo many parents have seen the opposite happen. Whether that’s because the competition is just that stiff nowadays, I can’t say — but we can’t argue that parents are blaming the lower grades in the harder classes. As high school teachers, this is a hard perspective to convince parents that they have incorrect.

As for the poster who said $150,000 is sufficient to send your kids to college and pay tuition, if we are going to reward kids for academic achievement and not tie the HOPE to need, then we can’t tie it to need, plain and simple. Besides, $150,000 these days is really not all that much, and who are you/we to say that we know a person’s finances so well that they can automatically afford anything these days?! That’s what the FAFSA is for. I also believe that kids ought not forget that Federal loans ARE available to them even if the HOPE is not — and what’s more, tuition in Georgia public colleges is QUITE reasonable compared to private schools and public schools in other states! So while I might not agree with “if you’re making $X you can pay,” as a blanket statement, I still believe that there are means for students to afford college.

Man, now I really have to run … more later!!

By Jeff

April 10, 2007 1:05 PM | Link to this

JustMe and HST2:

All I know is this: When I tried to write the actual symbols on the board for real and natural numbers, I had to explain what the symbols meant and what those sets were to 10th grade “Advanced Geometry” students at Newton High.

By jim d

April 10, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

just me,

Are you really as much of a hypocrite as you sound

I really doubt it. However, I do understand how sometimes I tend confuse folks by advocating for stronger high schools and accountability, and how some folks could think I’m saying it is okay for my son to take it easy in high school academically. First you must understand that my child’s education is merely supplemented and enriched by the public school system. His real education comes from traveling, experiencing life, from his love reading and exploring the real world, From meeting people from all walks of life and exploring his inner-self (this is how he learns). Unfortunately not everyone can afford or has a desire to assure their kids get a well rounded education—for those folks I advocate a higher standard of accountability from the schools and to be quite honest, I’d have loved had they offered more than teaching him to regurgitate facts, although he does it quite well.

I hope this clears any confusion.

By OldSchool

April 10, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this

Since my oldest went to Berry and my youngest went to MTSU, HOPE was simply not a major factor in paying for their educations. Both qualified and both earned college GPAs that would easily have kept HOPE for them. What REALLY paid much of the cost (at least for the youngest) was the Academic Commonmarket. With her major at MTSU in Recording Industry, they waived the out-of-state tuition and saved us over 12,000 each year.

Yes, something needs to be done about HOPE but I’m tending to agree with jim dear here…make it a reimbursement program payable only for coursework that is passed with a C or better.

By irish65

April 10, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this

Jim D,

You are unqualified to speak to educational issues until you can spell “reimbursement” and “unencumbered”.

By jim d

April 10, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this

Paul,

Sorry for not going into more detail regarding my reimbursement plan. I’ve detailed it on these blogs before and sometimes tend to forget not everyone here are regulars.

Here’s how it could work. Make low interest loans available for all students, if they pull the grades the loan is forgiven. But god help the student that fails to pull the grade. Failing makes the loan with interest a term debt with interest accruing from the date of the loan conception and repayable over a 36 month period.

I view this as accomodating for low income families. How about you?

By jim d

April 10, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

Dear irish,

I see :-)

By local student

April 10, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this

Ah, HOPE scholarships. Such a wonderful topic.

From the depths of a 098 math course (don’t laugh, please, I last took algebra when big hair was fashionable) HOPE is a mess. By making the only standard a B average, the program is now an across the board entitlement rather than a way to retain smart people here in GA. My remedial (excuse me, learning support) class consists of two basic kinds of students. First are the old folk who have been out of high school for a while. The second (and far more common) is the recent H.S. grad. Just from casual observation, about 70% of these kids are on HOPE scholarships. They can’t add 2+2. Not only did they not absorb basic knowledge, high school didn’t even teach them how to be students. They have no sense of responsibility, rarely do homework, and are flabbergasted by things like not getting a passing grade for showing up for maybe one class out of three. From my observations, the course is structured just as much to teach the students things like bring your calculator or don’t wait until six weeks of homework piles up as it is to teach them math. I feel sorry for the professors as they deal with these kids who have been passed along with B’s since that’s now the standard in Georgia. HOPE is viewed as an entitlement, not a scholarship. Thus, schools have been “dumbed down” since the whole point is to make a B, not learn anything. When the entire system is about having an arbitrary letter on a piece of paper (who thinks those “B’s” mean a thing?) then the system is in the crapper.

Oh, and please, add a SAT requirement. That might begin to thin out the herds a little. It might exclude some students who aren’t good test-takers, but for God’s sake, what are they going to do on college exams? And who said they were entitled to HOPE funds anyway? HOPE arbitrarily excludes students from Alabama. Isn’t that unfair?

By Paul D

April 10, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

“HS teacher too”:

The rigor of a student’s HS curriculum is one factor in the admissions process. And it can overcome lower grades and/or test scores, but it is still only one component. At UGA, for example, there are many factors that go into the model used to determine admissions: geography, high school, extracurriculars, a writing sample. A confounding variable in that model is that at least part of some students’ applications are qualitative (and therefore hard to “standardize”).

I would argue that the student with a “B” in the advanced course will “beat out” the “A” student from the standard course because the former student will more likely score higher on the SAT or ACT and be a better and more thoughtful writer - in other words produce a more competitive overall application. Not to mention be better prepared to be a successful student in college.

We should also consider that admissions offices at UGA and Tech know which HSs in GA are more rigorous. (Admissions offices at these two “weight” the relative strengths of Georgia’s high schools).

These institutions also know that the legislature has certain expectations of geographic diversity in their student populations (especially at Georgia). You may recall that not long ago, former Lt. Gov. Taylor and rural and urban Dems suggested “10%” admissions rules for USG institutions (namely, UGA) based on a fallicious argument that it is harder for students from rural and urban (read: less academically rigorous) HSs to access those institutions. In fact, rural students are over-represented at UGA despite the fact that nearly 60% of UGA’s students are from Metro Atlanta. It’s a simple matter of where people live. Why is this important to the discussion? Because a student at “South Georgia High” (purely mythical, mind you) may only have the opportunity to take 4 AP courses in her entire HS career, while “Average Gwinnett County High” (again, not a specific one) will offer its students AP courses in 9th grade and throughout HS. Is “SGH” on a fair playing field? That’s why I mentioned the “relative” benefits across HSs and how the weighting will mainly benefit already advantaged students (namely those at upper end Gwinnett, Cobb and private schools).

You also mentioned in passing what I think is an important and often overlooked observation, namely the “competitiveness” of the admissions process. The “problem” is not that students are so much better, it is that there are so many more of them. The overall number of HS graduates in Georgia is continually increasing and has been for the last several years. I am not sure of the most up-to-date figures, but in the late 90’s it was estimated that from around 2000 to 2014, Georgia expected a 30%+ increase in HS graduates. It follows that percentages of college goers and high achieving students would also increase; so yes, the admissions process is much more competitive. This is a nationwide phenomena. See the New York Times for recent articles on profiles of students rejected from elite universities and on MIT’s president’s efforts to bring some sanity to a process which is very much out of control.

(The dirty secret of in-state admissions in Georgia? Go to Perimeter or Gainesville or Clayton State for two years and apply as a transfer. It is undoubtedly a much lower threshold since USG politics prevent the “weighting” of grades from “sister” institutions. The process for transfer to the more competitive admissions public in Georgia should have incredibly high standards for transfer students, but they do not).

On top of this, with reduced appropriations, the research institutions in Georgia are definitely looking to recuit more students from out of state who will pay closer to full costs. There will also be a negative response from instituions to the recent “guaranteed tuition” policy which will, very likely, create huge tuition increases from year to year for each new entering class. These are another two factors (or, if you like, just one: economic) that affect who gets into the two top institutions in Georgia.

All of these factors could contribute to a worthy student being denied admission. In fact, many worthy students are denied. Period. That’s competitive admissions. Parents - and I do sympathize with the plight of teachers who struggle to maintain some integrity for appropriate rigor and evaluation in classrooms in the face of parental and administrative pressure - latch on to what they can most easily grasp: HS grades and SAT. In fact, these are components (major ones, no doubt, when an office with limited resources must process 10,000 to 20,000 applications for a class of 4,500) in a complex and difficult overall picture.

It’s not simple and the pressure to obtain the subsidy complicates the picture, but we’re better off as a society for HOPE.

By jesus christ

April 10, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

the standard for hope should be a minimum grade on the sat or act exam. those are standardized exams. anything above 1200 on the sat or eqquivalent on the act should merit a hope scholarship. there is too much DIVERISITY in the state high schools to call anything standard. a dumb white redneck kid can get a B in bonehead math in a rural georgia school the same way a dumb black kid can in an urban atlanta high school. those dumb kids will get their single semester of hope and the wash out with lousy grades in college..so, the process of hope is self correcting…and it is not too beig a price to pay to give a dumb kid a shot at an entitlement …maybe he / she can turn it into a scholarship if they work hard in academics…

so, hope is only an etitlement for the dumb kids. it is a schoalrship for the smart ones. the dumb kids will get one semester of hope and then flunk out and go back to their parent’s basement and deliver pizzas to the ga tech graduates…. the smart kids will make soemthing of themselves and hope will be a valuable scholarship tool for them. they can use the money they saved with hope to pay for the pizzas the uga grads deliver to them…therby re-investing hope dollars into the state of georgia….

so, it is not the school that decides who gets hope it is the dumbness or the smartness of the student. it is academic darwinism…not intelligent design… ms cox and you evangelical whackos.

By Patrick

April 10, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

The HOPE Scholarship is a Pandora’s Box that has been opened and can never be closed. It doesn’t matter how many restrictions you put on it or anything, there are still loopholes and ways to get around it.

Since the HOPE was first started, high school students across the state of Georgia had their grades “inflated” by teachers who want them to graduate and grade “curbing” has gone up.

Here’s an example of grade curbing: Let’s say your child has to take a test or quiz in algebra. The highest quiz score in the class is 93. That is still a fairly decent grade. Here’s how the curbing works: The teacher will increase that score to a perfect 100%, and then will increase everyone else’s score by however many points it took to get that highest grade to 100. For those of you who were educated in Georgia’s public (government) schools, that would be 7. So if your child ended up with a 63, he or she would end up with a 70, which is considered a passing grade.

Grade inflation works on a similar principle. The difference is that if the student didn’t do an assignment they receive a “0.” All the teacher has to do to correct the “0” is put anything above a “6” (again for those educated by the Georgia government schools, that’d be a “7”, “8”, “9”, or “10”). This is mainly popular among the athletes and jocks.

Parents: ask you kids next time they take a test if their teacher curbed the test grades. I’ll bet dollars to Krystals the answer will be “yes.”

By Paul D

April 10, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

“jim d”

Thank you for sharing your forgivable loans program idea. I think we do something akin to this already for “high demand” areas like science and math teaching and nursing.

I would challenge your position that this is fair to poor families who notoriously lack information on how to take advantage of financial aid programs. There is an information problem for eligible students the way the program is structured now for poor families. I would argue that creating a complicated loan forgiveness program would further alienate disadvantaged students who lack equitable access to information on the current program.

I’ll add that “loans” and “loan forgiveness” programs overwhelmingly benefit middle/upper-middle class families - which in and of itself is not a bad thing, but we can all agree that we should be doing something beneficial - a “hand up” I think is the term most recently employed - for poor families.

By Jeff

April 10, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

Patrick:

Grade inflation and curVing:

Don’t get me started. I’ll flat out admit I was guilty of it when I was a teacher, and virtually every teacher I ever knew that had any kind of standards was as well. BUT there are a TON of reasons for doing it. Most boil down to teacher sanity….

By College Prof

April 10, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

As a college professor at one of Georgia’s public two-year institutions, I thought I would clear up a few things.

First, all of Georgia’s access institutions teach a series of “Learning Support” courses in three areas: mathematics, English and reading. These courses share common course titles and numbering (MATH0097-Beginning Algebra, MATH0099-Intermediate Algebra, etc.) and, as they are numbered below 1000 they do not count towards the credits earned for graduation. They are paid for by HOPE and they do count when determining whether a student is carrying a “full load.” These also count against the total number of credits HOPE will pay up to which is 126 or 128 if I’m not mistaken.

These courses are mandated by the University System’s Board of Regents for all access institutions. In other words, we are told that we will teach these course for students who score below certain scores on the COMPASS placement exams.

Second, courses such as College Algebra (MATH1111) and Quantitative Reasoning (MATH1001) are considered freshman level courses as is Pre-Calculus (MATH1113). No one on my campus, regardless of their academic background, would claim that these course qualify as “Advanced” in any way, shape or form. In the University System’s core curriculum these courses are the mathematical equivalent of English Composition I (ENGL1101) and II (ENGL1102) in being labelled as “essential skills” courses.

Third, at the two year instituions we are no longer allowed to consider SAT or ACT scores when considering whether to admit a student. The only consideration we may consider, by instruction of the legislature, is a student’s high school GPA.

Fourth, at the college I teach at, about 75% of our entering freshmen require at least one learning support course. Over 20% of our HOPE scholars fall into this category. The majority of these students require at least one semester of remediation in math and it is not all that uncommon to find students who have completed four years of high school math including at least one advanced math class within the last five years who place into these courses.

Finally, as a college professor, while I am certainly a product of a liberal education in the sense that my education has liberated me from some of the gross ignorance I might otherwise be subject to, one should not assume anything regarding my political leanings ro my attitude towards spending other people’s money. I am paid modestly for someone with my level of education though I am certainly not a pauper. I am deeply appreciative of the opportunity to be a part of my students’ lives in a way that can make a difference. The students I teach now will transfer to other institutioins to become my doctors in 10 years. They will go on to Georgia Tech and will, in the next five years, begin designing the roads I drive on, the buildings I work in and the infrastructure of the civilization that sustains me. While HOPE may not be perfect, I see a lot of students who are able to access education and take advantage of the opportunities it creates that would otherwise be unable to do so without it. While the investment in a person’s life can’t be measured easily or in the short term, it seems to me that even if only one person in ten truly took advantage of what HOPE affords, the scholarship program is worth it.

By DB

April 10, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this

I like the idea that Florida uses for their Hope Scholarship equivalent — “Bright Futures”. It’s based on a combination of grade point and SAT. For example, for 100% tuition and fees, plus $300 per semester for expenses, a child must have a 3.5 GPA and a minimum 1270 on the SAT (28 on ACT). There are some adjustments here and there (i.e., National Merit Scholar, and several other categories), but it recognizes both GPA and SAT or ACT. There’s also a community service component.

If a child has a 3.0 GPA and minimum 970 SAT, then they get 75% tuition/fees, plus $300 lab fees per semester if they are attending a 4-year college, or 100% if they are attending a community college.

It goes on and on, but basically, a 3.0 is the starting place for GPAs, and it goes up from there depending on SAT, community service, etc. I’m a little jaded on the “community service” bit, as I don’t think it’s an appropriate component for an academic issue, but hey, I don’t live in Florida and they didn’t ask me :-).

All this is to say that I think Georgia is a little too basic by saying “3.0. End of story.” I do think that there should be some incentive in there, other than just making “above average”. Seems like “B” is the new “C”. Or else we live in Lake Woebegon, where ALL of the children are “above average”!

By College Prof

April 10, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

I must take exception to one of the the things Paul D. said in his post:

“(The dirty secret of in-state admissions in Georgia? Go to Perimeter or Gainesville or Clayton State for two years and apply as a transfer. It is undoubtedly a much lower threshold since USG politics prevent the “weighting” of grades from “sister” institutions. The process for transfer to the more competitive admissions public in Georgia should have incredibly high standards for transfer students, but they do not).”

This is an absolutely false argument. Data from the University System clearly shows that students who begin their education at one of the state’s two year access instituions actually perform better during their junior and senior years that students who attend their first two years at one of the research institutions such as UGA or Tech. That’s the actual “dirty little secret”.

The assumption that a TA at UGA (you don’t think highly paid research professors actually teach many lower division courses at UGA, do you?) can teach physics better than a fully trained Ph.D. who has chosen teaching as his or her profession at a two or four year school is rather ludicrous. The idea that a student learns better in a Georgia State auditorium with 300 of their closest friends than they do in a class with 29 other students is absurd.

That we are somehow less rigorous at the access institutions in upholding the standards of our disciplines is, quite frankly, insulting and based on years of elitism and ignorance bred from within a higher education caste system.

By jim d

April 10, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

College prof,

thanks for confirming what my kid has been telling me for the past 4 years that is in stark contrast to what the school system has been telling me.

By Ernest

April 10, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this

College Prof, thanks for clearing up some of the misconceptions!

JimD, I’d like to ‘tweak’ your recommendation by suggesting we index the award based on grades, i.e A > 100%, B > 85%, C > 70%. While this could turn counterproductive and encourage grade inflation at the college level, it could also incent students to do their best. Another criteria could be added based on the difficulty of the class.

I would welcome seen a consortium of teachers from around the state getting together to help define an Honors class, both on content and delivery. You can’t ignore what Jeff said earlier about his personal experiences in teaching Honors classes in different school systems. Because there isn’t a current standard in place, I would be against providing value points for those taking Honors classes.

As a reminder, you can gain insight about HOPE and its history by going to Hope Scholarship. Despite some of its fallacies, it is pretty impressive what it has done for GA students and colleges.

By JustMe

April 10, 2007 3:03 PM | Link to this

College Prof,

Another reason for what you suggest is that there are fewer distractions at the smaller institutions. UGA has tons of frats, sororities, sports events, etc. that many freshmen cannot resist - and it affects their learning.

By Paul D

April 10, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

Patrick:

I doubt that “curbing” and grade inflation are a direct result of the HOPE program. These are nation-wide phenomena and have been used in classrooms for a long, long time. Dare I say even and most egregiously so at private schools and colleges which are purely tuition-driven? I’ll admit that HOPE-inspired pressure increases the frequency of these practices, but they are not bad teaching practice - especially in a rigorous classroom.

Your implication of teachers as the problem is at least only partially accurate (and frankly unsurprising given your use of an implied prejorative term for public schools) since many teachers strive to bring rigor and accountablity to their classrooms only to be begrudged by a few unsatisfied parents and weak-kneed administrators.

It is easy and ideologically convenient to criticize schools for these HOPE-related problems, when the problem is fostered by several parties - not the least of which are the parents and students who don’t want to be held accountable.

By local student

April 10, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this

Paul D., I have to disagree with your assessment that we are better off as a society for HOPE.

A High School diploma used to mean something. If you had one you were considered intelligent enough (and had the basic skills) to work in a job that required more than ditchdigging. Dumb people dropped out. Smart people dropped out too if they had some unfortunate life event, which is a bummer, but all of life can’t be made fair.

Now, just like 50 is the new 30…College is the new High School. If you are going to have a decent job (outside of the really skilled trades, which pay more than many jobs requiring a degree) you have to go to college. Trust me, as time passes, society and employers will devise more ways to separate the “smart” (for lack of a better word) from the run-of the mill.

The whole mechanism behind this is our determination that everyone be top-notch. Only “good” students should have HOPE scholarships? We’ll find a way that everyone is “good”. Who the heck wants to be “not good”? The end effect is that no one is good if you lapse into this everybody should have a shot mindset.

Yes, more setting of standards that are arbitrary like SAT’s will exclude others, even students who are great college material. Sometimes in an unfair fashion. But this whole system of basically sending any warm body to college is hurting academics in far worse ways than wasted tax dollars. It helps create the basic assumption that everyone will get a college degree. Colleges will then adjust their degrees to the average student, not the other way around. Sending everyone to college won’t make the population better as a whole.

By Lifer

April 10, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

College Prof - I am giving you a standing ovation for your remarks. I work at the largest 2-year institution in the USG, and I believe most Georgians are ignorant of the quality education their children receive at Georgia Perimeter College, Kennesaw State University, Gainesville College, and other smaller colleges/universities in the state.

HOPE is destroying education in Georgia. I hear too many students cry at the end of the semestre, begging the professor to change the grade to a “B” because, “I need to keep HOPE or I can’t go to college!” Students do not feel any responsibility for their performance in college or elsewhere, blaming their failures on everyone/everything else.

By IvyGrad

April 10, 2007 3:31 PM | Link to this

As a product of one of Gwinnett County’s lesser schools, I can say that plenty of people took AP courses simply for the grade boost and not to challenge themselves. All too often passing the exam was secondary to getting 10pts added to your final grade. Those who took Honors classes were even less inclined to push themselves and instead focused exclusively on high GPA. Adding points to Honors courses would simply pump state colleges with inadequately prepared students on temporarily free rides. This is a double edged sword as all that extra tuition does provide schools w/ plenty of cash despite the atrocious matriculation rates.

I recall taking an AP Physics C course where I was the only person in the class of 25 to pass the exam. Everyone in the class got the grade boost despite the teacher trying to teach w/o calculus b/c he didn’t understand it himself (He also taught honors). Despite that, admission boards could see past the grade grubbing as I was the only one in my graduating class to go to an Ivy League despite not measuring in the top 10% GPA of my HS class. At the time I was spending 20-30hrs a week on my bike and school was just a place to read bike magazines.

My younger brother followed in my footsteps into college and despite his perfect HS GPA, #3 in his class, 1500+ SAT, and passing 8 AP exam he still found it difficult to compete against students much better prepared by schools in the Northeast. Curves are a way of life up there and knowing how many std dev’s from mean you were mattered far more than if you got a 90 or a70.

Grade boosting honors classes will simply result in even lower graduation rates from the more rigorous schools like GT while those choosing to major in Leisure Studies will continue their free rides eventually devaluing the importance of a college degree. College already does a good job at weeding out those who shouldn’t have degrees and bumping up the number of “qualified” applicants won’t help.

By Blind Homer

April 10, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

I still don’t see how using HOPE money on mediocre students that duck AP/Honors to keep a 3.0 is a waste of money. Not everyone can or should go to Ga Tech, how would we find employment for all those nanotechnology PHD’s anyway? The current approach allows people like Jeff (no offense) to get a degree and teaching certificate at KSU and perpetutate the mediocrity that is our public school system. What’s wrong with that? We need teachers.

By Kathy

April 10, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

Patrick, As someone who graduated from Georgia (government) schools, I definitely know that subtracting 93 from 100 leaves a remainder of 7. I ALSO know that the term you are referring to is “grading on a CURVE” not “grade CURBING”. Hopefully you are not an arrogant transplant (arrogant Southerners are bad enough) - I have many fine Midwestern and Northern neighbors who I love and respect. I hate to seem them sullied as a group by someone like you.

As Paul D. states, grade curving is a national problem and, yes, a symptom of a failure in public schools - also a national problem not confined to Georgia.

One last point - I have a very talented high school junior who makes outstanding grades, is active in her school/community, and was reading on a college level in 5th grade. Her PSAT score reflected none of this because she has always been a terrible standardized test taker. The SAT is a joke as far as predicting college achievement levels. Many deserving students need the Hope Scholarship to pay their way through college (full rides are rare indeed in the rest of the scholarship world.) Tying the Hope to SAT scores could be a big mistake and unfairly penalize many students.

By Jeff

April 10, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this

Homer:

Note that I was the one TRYING to restore some credibility to the system. As nearly any other teacher can tell you, when you get whiny parents and spineless yellow bellied admins, what YOU want doesn’t amount to a hill of beans!

By Jeff

April 10, 2007 3:47 PM | Link to this

Kathy:

I’ve said it all my life:

There is no such thing as a “terrible standardized test taker”. Standardized tests are the EASIEST ones. Indeed, they are the same year after year, the only real difference is that different material is tested. Is anyone has a problem with standardized tests, that tells me that they have a problem following rules, which is indicative of much larger problems than a score on a standardized test.

Now, if you said she was a “terrible essay test taker”, I could agree, though I would note that she can get help for that.

By JustMe

April 10, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

Kathy,

I don’t think that anyone is advocating using SAT scores exclusively to qualify for HOPE. However, due to grade inflation, I think that we do have to consider it.

There is tremendous variability in gpa between schools. Heck, even within a school, there is tremendous variabilitiy in grades given by teachers. There has to be some uniform method against which all applicants are measured.

I would like to see in GA, there be a combination of the GHSGT score, the gpa, and the SAT used to qualify for HOPE. That is just IMHO. We should use the HOPE to help the best and brightest and those unable to pay for college. We should not use up the HOPE money for remedial college classes so that there is no money left for real college students.

By sunshine608

April 10, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

I agree with the previous poster that most kids are weeded out in the first two years. I was a Hope Scholar and half of my Freshman Community lost hope the first year. Another tried to beat the system byt not prolonging the 30 hour mark, but sadly most of those lost the HOPE too. In fact ALL of my friends in HS/Freshman year that went to a USG school were HOPE eligible, but only about 5-10 of us graduated from college with the HOPE. And about half of the 10 lost HOPE at some point during college.

So as long as there are funds, I don’t think we should weigh honors courses different ( AP- yes, if they do well on the exam) or add an SAT min. Which I probably woulnd’t have made- but thats a completley seperate issue. Although the FL system sounds pretty good…

By fed up

April 10, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

Easy to fix… just tie Hope to SAT scores with a GPA component. Just like FL. No one will do it though because then the dumb bubba politician’s kids (i.e. of the bubbas who run this state) won’t be able to get into college.

By jim d

April 10, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this

Yeah Jeff,

those whiny parents coupled with whiny teachers just don’t mix well. :-)

By hll1955

April 10, 2007 4:18 PM | Link to this

I am shaking my head at all the people who want to limit HOPE or make it competative, make it difficult, force reimbursement etc…don’t you remember where HOPE money comes from? The lottery…It doesn’t come from taxes, no individual or business is forced to contribute to the funding. There is plenty of money to do what HOPE was and is designed to do. That is put computers in classrooms, put all of Georgia’s children in Pre K, and to allow ANY child who graduates HS with a B gpa or better the opportunity to attend college. There is no guarantee implied in that statement…it gives an OPPORTUNITY to those that would never have even dreamed they would get that much. If the kids blow it and lose HOPE so what? At least they put forth effort in HS and didn’t flunk out/drop out. All it means is that we need to sell a few more scratch offs. No one twists anyone’s arm to play the lottery.

Besides,do you honestly think that the inner city child with 1 parent making minimum wage or even on Welfare could afford to pay for college up front, then get reimbursed when grades come out? Be real…the same goes for paying back HOPE if the child doesn’t make the grades in college,please,what would you do…dun a poor person for a semester’s worth of HOPE. Do you think that the money would EVER get paid back???

If we can keep the politician’s sticky greedy fingers out of the HOPE fund, and let the fund do what it is supposed to do..this conversation is moot. As long as there are $210,000,000,00 jackpots, there will be MORE than enough money for everyone.

And yes..my child attended college on HOPE. Our entire out of pocket expense for 5 years was $450. That was only because some egotisitcal prof assigned a book he had written and by itself was more than the $150 book allowance granted by HOPE and because most classes assign several books even though they may only be used 1 or 2 days during the entire semester. If anything I think that HOPE should cover ALL expenses, not just an allowance of $150 per semester for books…it should cover whatever it costs for a student to attend a local college. (I am not advocating living expenses of any kind, just the true costs of a semester of college)

For those of you so concerned with AP or honors classes, if it really mattered to you, your child wouldn’t be allowed to take “slacker” classes…and if they got less than a B average, then they shouldn’t have been in the AP or honors class in the first place. Sometimes I think that it is the parents who want the bragging rights of a child in AP or honors. Those parents should be prepared to pay for the 1st year of college. Your child can get HOPE even after they go to college if they get a B average. Hope is there for everyone. If you don’t want to contribute because you feel the money is being wasted, then don’t play the lottery. Simple as that!

By Tatiana

April 10, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

I think that the HOPE Scholarship should be a combination of both entitlement and competition.

All students with a B or better average should be eligible to receive funding as a reward for their efforts. However, for those students who excel AND take additional challenging courses, why shouldn’t they receive more funding?!

I graduated with a 3.94 grade point average and did not receive ANY scholarships—why? because I attended a public school with the top 10% of graduates with 4.0s or better. So where was the recognition for the students like myself who had good grades? If it wasn’t for the HOPE Scholarship, I would not have been able to attend college because I came from a single family low-income household.

By mom3boys

April 10, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

The colleges look at those courses for admission….kids without those courses will not be taking spots away from more qualified students. They simply won’t get into big schools like UGA and tech. AP course should (and do) earn extra points, but not honors. What about gifted? Should those courses earn extra as well? The top students get in and stay in, the rest will drop out/be put out/ and re-enter when they are able to handle the rigors and responsibility of college life. Many good students (honors and AP) will flunk out too…it’s just a maturity thing. No extra credit to get the hope, though!

By catlady

April 10, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

Bottom line on the HOPE debate: it will not be restricted in any meaningful way, ever. Folks believe that they and their children are (by God!) entitled to it—that they have earned it and any effort to target it more specifically to students with real achievement will be a loss of the entitlement.

IF the Gov. had asked some of those with expertise in the financial aid area, the program could have been instituted more thoughtfully and with a better record of helping OUTSTANDING pupils. As it is now, it largely rewards mediocrity and gamesmanship. It was a ploy for the votes to enrich someone with the lottery. The fact that it helps some students is a by-product, like collateral damage. The unintended consequences of the program are real and far-reaching, but it will never be changed to target outstanding pupils.

By gtfan

April 10, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

Let’s see, in high school top 10% of my class, 4.3 gpa, took all AP and honors classes.

I went to KSU for a year and classes were cake, 4.0, I transferred to GT and lost my HOPE in a year and never got it back. Graduated with a 2.4, the average GPA at the time of the school.

Most students at TECH lose their hope.

Compare that to the cake gpa’s at KSU, Southern Poly, Georgia State, UGA, Georgia Southern, etc.

That’s why ‘Honors’ gpa is alot lower at Tech than any other schools, the schools avg gpa is lower.

I’m paying off 15K in debt and my sisters got a free ride at KSU, teacher, nurse.

Granted, I knew the rules but if I could change it, the colleges would be considered when giving out hope.

This country is losing the Technical advantage fast, i.e. Indian, Asian, Arab engineers that I work with every day filling roles here in the US. GT and even a Southern Poly should be given consideration above all others, as well as other Science degrees.

My sisters graduation(teacher) had like 300 teachers and like 50 for all Sciences(that’s ridiculous)

We’re not importing teachers, nurses, marketing, business managers, finance, etc. It’s all Science related.

By Paul D

April 10, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this

“college prof”

A well said explaination of courses for general education requirements. Your description of how general education courses are regarded has, I think, helped clear up some misconceptions about what qualifies as an “advanced” course.

And I apologize for my gross over-simplification of the level of rigor at two-year institutions. I hope you will accept my apology. I will, though, stand by my assertion that admissions standards for transfer students at the two more selective public institutions in Georgia are less rigorous relative to those for first-year, first-time college students. I did not mean to imply that the education one can recieve at 2-years or other 4-year schools is inevitably of low quality. My personal belief - and I went to a third tier public institution myself - is that one gets out what one puts in regardless of where one goes.

By hll1955

April 10, 2007 5:15 PM | Link to this

What additional funding should be given for taking AP/honors courses? HOPE was not designed to give pocket money to students. A class at UGA costs the same for an AP straight A high school student as it does for a student who earned a B average in regular courses. Hope pays for the opportunity for both those students to attend college…thats all. It is just as likely that the HS AP/honors student will discover drinking and partying, and flunk out as it is for the B average HS graduate. Take a look at the statistics that show that 80 to 90 percent of students drink to excess the first semester of college. These are not just B average kids.

Those who want extra credit, extra money, extra snaps for taking challenging classes just aren’t getting it. You want to be acknowledged as special…fine, you are special. Does that satisfy your ego? Leave HOPE alone. It is serving its purpose and not costing you anything.

As I said before, if you don’t want to be involved with HOPE, don’t play the lottery.

By Noelle

April 10, 2007 5:16 PM | Link to this

I agree that “honors” classes should not give extra credit toward the mimimum GPA unless the curriculum is certified (like AP classes), but the minimum requirements for HOPE should not change. Education should be an entitlement.

By Ken Roberts

April 10, 2007 5:40 PM | Link to this

I’m an Electrical Engineering major at Tech and have to maintain a 3.0 just like anyone else. I think its fair as it is. If a student cannot get a 3.0 in his or her major or ‘advanced’ course load, then they should switch down to something easier. A 3.0 is NOT that difficult to maintain if you try even a little bit at all. A 3.0 means essentially that you get the same number of C’s as you do A’s.

Consider this, if you get extra GPA points for advanced classes, then pretty soon almost every class will be called ‘advanced’. It was that way at a couple of the High Schools I attended… if you took the normal College Prep level class it basically meant you were at least half-retarded. The normal level was called ‘advanced’, and then ‘gifted’, and then ‘AP’.

By decaturparent

April 10, 2007 5:41 PM | Link to this

Catlady, you are right about the HOPE but not about outstanding students. Truly OUTSTANDING (not just above average) students will get scholarships at competitive private colleges … and I am sure that they will take them. Outstanding students will still have a place to go where they can be outstanding.

One thing that HOPE has done is make UGA a more competitive college. When I was in high school in NC, no one would consider UGA - now it’s actually regarded as a fairly good school even in other states.

By HS Teacher Too

April 10, 2007 5:41 PM | Link to this

hll1955,

Oh, you started out so well! You make a great point about the lottery -– unfortunately, though, the HOPE in and of itself has put unfair pressures on teachers and school systems to “inflate” grades and with administrations as weak as they are in terms of standing up for rigor, it can be an exasperating situation in the big picture.

That being said, there does exist a problem with kids and their parents feeling an entitlement to something that was designed to be earned, and in turn there is this problem the blog poses about the best way to equitably allow kids to earn the money. But ultimately, you’re right – if a kid DOES earn the HOPE and loses it, should we care? Perhaps not as much as we do.

There are some things you suggest where I disagee with you, however.

First, “Besides,do you honestly think that the inner city child with 1 parent making minimum wage or even on Welfare could afford to pay for college up front, then get reimbursed when grades come out?” Yes, I do believe this. It’s called guaranteed student loans or tuition payment plans. I know, I sound like Ebeneezer Scrooge (“are there no workhouses…?”) but I firmly believe that where there is a will, there is a way; goodness knows the government provides support programs. I know; I paid for college in large part with student loans because I went to school where there is no such thing as the HOPE and my parents did the best they could, but fell far short financially.

I also have to disagree with you about kids in honors or AP classes who earn less than a B. In fact, I would SUPPORT more of that happening! It means that the kid is actually challenged!!! Again, I know. I graduated second in a class of 783 students, but first quarter got a C in AP Calculus BC. Didn’t mean I didn’t belong there – in fact, meant just the opposite. I had finally met my match! Trust me, by the end of the year, I not only learned how to study, not only did well in the class (and on the AP exam), but I was a far better student for it.

Paul D,

I don’t disagree with your take of the admissions process at all; nor do I fail to understand how a competitive market works … my point was simply that explaining it to parents is a tough, tough sell, and we (teachers) end up looking as though we are ignorant, blind, or have intentionally misled the parents and students. It can often be lose-lose. What’s the answer, at the end of the day? “You could have been better?” I try to point to the stats Harvard typically puts out, where they talk about applications vs. accepted students (this was in the NY Times just this week again) and how many valedictorians, perfect SAT scores, etc., get denied – there are just sometimes too many good students, and whether it’s the applicant pool at Harvard or at Georgia doesn’t matter if you’re the applicant in question.

Jeff,

We don’t often teach set notation anymore. Doesn’t mean the sky is falling if you have to explain “double-bar-R” to a geometry class; at some point it’s new and who cares, really, at what point that is? Likewise for a college class – kids/students have to see it for the first time at some point. But to qualify a remedial class as you did in your early post struck me as a little overzealous in defending the class/content in that regard. :) I think we’re on the same page now, though.

One last thing — I have been saying on this blog for quite some time that if we are going to have standards for GPA we also have to recognize the inherent differences in majors and colleges. A number of people have posted now about differences between, say, Tech and Georgia State, and losing the HOPE for being an engineer versus keeping it as a PE major … AMEN, PEOPLE!!!!! THANK YOU!

Lots of new folks on the blog since spring break. I’m enjoying it.

By Paul D

April 10, 2007 5:44 PM | Link to this

“local student”

We, as Americans, long ago decided to push for mass higher education. It started as long ago as the Land Grant Act of the late 19th century and is best exemplified by the G.I. Bill in the late 1940’s. HOPE is definitely in that very American tradition of expanding access to higher education. The idea that we can turn back to elitism in education given our history and our participation in the world economy is not, to me, a realistic option.

Life certainly isn’t fair, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t make honest attempts at public policy to help citizens reach self-fullfillment. That idea doesn’t necessarily dilute the quality of education. No one would argue a degree from Kennesaw State carries the same weight in the marketplace as one from Emory. But it might help someone to achieve the type of career that makes them intrinsically happier, allows them to earn more money and contribute more to their communities.

I’m sorry, but I simply do not accept that offering qualified students access to higher education is a bad thing. And I don’t believe that offering that access demeans HS graduation. That, it seems to me, is a problem for Boards of Education to address.

And I think it is anti-thetical to the American ideal for us not to help each other achieve our potential. I think HOPE does that for those who take advantage of it. If someone accepts a sub-par education, that isn’t a fault in HOPE - it’s a fault in that person and that person will, eventually, pay the price.

By Paul D

April 10, 2007 5:54 PM | Link to this

“hs teacher too”

Yes, you and I agree. I tried to be clear that I fully understand (and sympathize with) your point about parents, grades and admissions. Admissions is rarely a transparent process and many parents don’t recognize the pressures institutions are under to improve their inputs (mean SATs and GPAs). I was hoping to help the discussion along because I really do think that pressure from parents for achievement (real or imagined) from their students is more problematic than the structure of HOPE.

By catlady

April 10, 2007 6:21 PM | Link to this

What I find funny is those in govt who claim that HOPE is working to encourage students to work harder. They point to how much higher percentage of students get HOPE than did in 1993 (or whatever the first year was). Having had 3 kids go to high school and college since HOPE was instituted, I can testify that many of the students who get HOPE are in NO WAY outstanding. If you test into pre-college classes, how can you “deserve” HOPE?

Of course, those students who opt for less advanced high school classes, to fatten their GPAs don’t last too long in REAL advanced classes in college. The problem is, they take up space (and some accrue loans they cannot easily pay) that could be going to students truly ready for college work.

Perhaps giving HOPE to marginal students (barely a 3.0 in average classes) would work if they were channeled only into the two year schools, which usually have stronger help and less sink or swim ethos, until they could become stronger students and prove themselves ready for HOPE support at 4 year schools. Has anyone suggested this? I have never seen it suggested.

By KA

April 10, 2007 7:31 PM | Link to this

My 3 kids graduated from a Gwinnett Co. HS in ‘00, ‘03, and ‘04 and each received 10 extra points added to their final class grades for AP classes, but not for Gifted/Honors classes. AP classes are much more demanding and IMO the students deserve the extra points. The AP and Honors/Gifted students are likely to have no trouble graduating with a B average in order to earn the HOPE. The extra points that boost the GPA is significant for HS class standing and for college admissions folks who expect the students to take the highest level HS classes they can. HOPE is not an entitlement, as plenty of smart kids find out in college when they lose their HOPE because they can’t party, skip classes and cram at the last moment like they did in HS.

By Lee

April 10, 2007 7:49 PM | Link to this

I’ve long been an advocate to make HOPE a reimbursement program. There are too many advantages not to:

• If a student has to pay up front, it puts the financial responsibility to make good grades where it should be - on the student. If not, then either Mom and Dad pay for it or the student can repay his student loans.

• Reimbursement HOPE reduces much of the grade inflation pressure on high schools.

• Reimbursement HOPE discourages the marginal student from “going to college for a year and see how it works out”. You will see more of a “committed student.”

• Reduction of the maginal student above would probably mean more money in HOPE, which could mean that HOPE could cover even more expenses.

As others have noted, if a student is from a poor family, there are numerous loans, grants, and scholarships available.

The biggest issue regarding HOPE is that in order to get the Lottery passed in Ga, the politicians had to strictly limit the expenditures to education. They can’t stand to have a pot of money sitting there that they can’t touch. It’s just a matter of time though…

By local student

April 10, 2007 7:51 PM | Link to this

Paul D:

If we’re trying to avoid elitism, the answer would be to provide free college for everyone. The current system now hands out money to basically anyone, due to grade inflation, parental pressure, etc. I wouldn’t be opposed to such a thing myself. 30 hours free if you can present yourself to a campus admission office. After that….maybe then you would have to meet some kind of standard.

It would motivate secondary school students on preparing themselves for college academically, not wrangling for silly and meaningless B’s. The fact that so many HOPE “scholars” lose their funding at the first collegate grade check speaks volumes.

And I don’t really get why HOPE should only concern me if I play the lottery. The costs to students like me, who have to pay out of pocket, have skyrocketed. HOPE is a huge gravy train for colleges and they have milked it for all it’s worth, only backing off when the General Assembly made noise about HOPE running out. That costs everyone who doesn’t have HOPE…including that dude who might have otherwise been a doctor or electrical engineer, but lost their HOPE from taking hard classes in a school like Tech. And our society, which will now hire an Indian or Nigerian to fill their place.

Yes, attending two-year institutions or getting psych degrees don’t mean you will end up a sponge on society. But HOPE discourages doing anything that’s more difficult. What a great way to structure our educational system.

By bob

April 10, 2007 7:52 PM | Link to this

Dirty little secret here people…the extra points added to AP or honors (doesn’t happen as much there as you think) are usually taken away when colleges look at them for admissions. People in admissions of universities strip the points from the transcript and instead factor the raw “B” in an AP course vs. the “B” in a CP class. That way, the extra points you receive don’t matter as much as the rigor of the courses you have taken. I recently went to open houses at Tech and UGA Honors and they both said as much when I visited. As for HOPE, high school education will be trumped by the newfound temptations kids will find living on their own (members of the opposite sex, parties, etc.). Those who want HOPE will work for it in college and those who don’t care enough to keep up their grades will quickly lose it.

By HS Teacher Too

April 10, 2007 8:24 PM | Link to this

bob,

you’re right that colleges will remove the 10 points, but that is EXACTLY what plays into the parents’ arguments that their kids might be better off taking CP classes, since the GPAs are recalculated — the parents see the 86 in AP turn to a 76, but the 86 in CP/honors stays put, so who wins the GPA contest? (This doesn’t affect HOPE eligibility, though, just admissions — is that right? I used to know this answer!) It’s shortsighted, to my mind, but it’s how people look at it, right or wrong.

This goes back to the case that Paul D was making — and he is 100% right about rigor mattering — but unfortunately, most of the parents I have encountered have not bought it, understood it, whatever you want to call it.

Quite frankly, I have encountered more “hard working” kids that do well, than I have encountered truly outstanding kids; and what (many) parents don’t understand is that even among the outstanding kids the competition for admission is fierce.

By Maryanne

April 10, 2007 8:44 PM | Link to this

Here’s a radical idea: open up HOPE to ALL students. As long as you maintain a “C” average, it will give even more the opportunity to attend college. Why cut it off at a “B” average?

I am really down on so-called ‘honors’ classes. I think they should be eliminated from every high school and ALL students given the EQUAL opportunity to take any class. Honors classes are discriminatory in and of themselves and have no place in the high school experience.

By KA

April 11, 2007 8:44 AM | Link to this

The added points to AP classes does help students with scholarship competitions, even IF the college admissions folks strip the points away. College admissions committees care more about how the students did in the highest level classes that they took. CP classes are a joke, ridiculously easy and don’t prepare the students for the rigor of study that will be required in college. Sorry to burst any of your GPA bubbles, but CP A’s don’t equate to AP A’s. Furthermore, students can get college credit with good scores on the national AP exams, but no college credit with CP classes. My son got 19 hours of college credit from his AP exam scores, and will graduate a semester early. That is money in the bank for us.

By Jeff

April 11, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this

KA:

While your son may have gotten credit for AP classes, as has been mentioned on this blog before, that is the exception rather than the norm…

By KA

April 11, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

Jeff, My point was that he took the AP classes to better prepare himself for college. He didn’t graduate HS with a 4.0 avg., like he could have had he taken CP classes.

gtfan, Two of my kids have gone to GT, and kept their HOPE. However, even if you lose your HOPE at GT, you are getting a superior education, and have great employment opportunities. My second daughter will graduate in August and just accepted an offer for a job she will start in September.

By KA

April 11, 2007 9:05 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I don’t know what ‘norm’ you are referencing, but I know many kids that have received college credit for their AP test scores.

By Jeff

April 11, 2007 9:14 AM | Link to this

KA:

Ah, but I pulled a 3.75 HS AFTER making a D and a few C’s.

The reason? I spent time in ACTUAL college classes. The grading curve went the OTHER way (as long as I made an A OR a B in the college class, it translated as an A in the HS).

I know from living in Mid and South GA that taking Joint Enrollment classes from a 4 year school isn’t always a feasible option and that AP classes may be the best feasible option, but IMHO that is exactly what they should be: a SECOND choice when the first isn’t feasible.

By KA

April 11, 2007 9:29 AM | Link to this

Jeff, Good for you, and my remarks were addressing the HS GPA discussion, not joint enrollment, which works very well for many students. Whatever the option, students should take the most challenging path in order to prepare themselves for success in college.

By Jim

April 11, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this

The fuss is very simple: Most of the good paying jobs have a degree requirement just to be considered for an interview. It has nothing to do with the life skills or ability required to actually DO the job. Show me the sheep-skin to join the “club”.

The Hope recipient-failures will be found out when they drop out, which all too many do now. Does laziness show? You bet it does here in GA.

If yo want to take honors classes do it because it makes you a better person, that you CAN do the work, and may better prepare you for life. Once again we see the elites say “What is in it for me”? As one teacher pointed out all too many Honors Classes are a joke academically.

I am coming of the opinion that a degree is meaning less and less these days. I see engineers from local state colleges build and design products that won’t work. We have incompetent doctors and scientists. We have Washington filled with incompetent people with college drgrees and the world, in general, just gets worse.

The question should be are colleges and universities filled with educators who can actually motivate and educate and provide a generation with real creative leadership that can actually acomplish something? Who cares if you are liberal or not? Can you graduate someone who can actually accomplish something of value to society?

Bright, college educated people involved, yet Chrsyler is tanking…again. It will now be sold for 25 cents on the dollar paid for by Mercedes. The highest ever level of mortgage forclosures and late payments and layoff and after layoff everywhere.

5 years of the War In Iraq with no end in sight and money wasted. When you now hear that Iraqi’s see more human suffering than when Saddam was in power it has to make you wonder just what “better” is, and for whom?

Now, gas is at $2.50/gal and we are no closer to lessening our dependence on foreign oil. Educated people still buy gas guzzeling SUVs. Go figure.

Maybe who gets Hope is not the real issue after all. Maybe it is what you do with it.

By BT

April 11, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this

Maryanne, The “so-called” honors classes are basically there for students who excel with the on-level course material and would be bored with the standard class material.

My Daughter has had several AP courses in High School and looks at these courses to challenge her to learn at a higher level. She did feel it “looked” good to on her college entrance information but knew,that grade wise, the extra points would be dismissed and her GPA would be based on-level to the courses taken.

Her GPA is high (4.0) and she did score decent on the SAT. That got her foot in the door. Thankfully, she does understand that maintaining her GPA once she starts college is a reality that she will have to strive to maintain.

I definitely do not fall in the catagory of the 150,000 per year wage earners mentioned on earlier posts and agree if I made that kind of money I would not have worried as much about Hope funding.

I do thank my lucky stars that Georgia does offer her the assistance with College with Hope. Now comes the fun part of paying the difference that Hope does not pay.

I do beleive that tighter restrictions could be developed on the system overall, heck, there is allways room for improvement, but the fact of the matter is that Hope has a cash bucket which is now overflowing and that should say that something is being done right.

By GA Student

April 11, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

I’m not sure the intent of HOPE was to only retain “the smartest & brightest” kids as some posted here have said. I believe its intent was to give EVERYONE a chance to attend college. Some students are bright or have the ability to learn, but unfortunately were not blessed with being in a high-income level high school or weren’t offered the same level of courses or had the “best” teachers. They get accepted to a College, take the remedial classes there and VOILA! they excel. Without HOPE they would not have been given that opportunity.

HOPE is not an entitlement it is an opportunity. HOPE gives EVERYONE (poor, middle class or rich) a chance to attend college. Once you are in, it’s up to you to keep it. Plain and simple.

By catlady

April 11, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Remember that there is other aid available to poor kids besides HOPE, some of which is not available to upper middle class students (Pell, for example). The idea that lower SES students cannot go to school if they don’t have HOPe is not true; all have a chance to attend (but may not be able to afford Emory, for example, without a lot of gift aid from the school).

By hll1955

April 11, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

to HS teacher too: all of these issues raised about inflated grades, extra points for AP/honors classes, whining teachers, hostile parents…all of the above mentioned are issues that are outside the HOPE scholarship program perview. These are issues that need to be addressed by the school boards, the teacher unions, the PTA, etc. These are problems that would occur if they said that HOPE was only for 4.0 students, or only for AP students, had to be paid back, only for some schools, only for certain majors, only for this, only for that…someone somewhere would find something to complain about. All of these issues including graduating little Johnny from elementary school to Middle School even though he can’t read, must be addressed by our educators, community, and govt. I think the NCLB (no child left behind) has more to do with inflated grades than HOPE ever has. This is a Georgia school system wide problem. This is why we rank so low in the nation when it comes to education. HOPE is a wonderful program as it is. Again, why worry about getting paid back from kids who lose HOPE…its LOTTERY MONEY not tax $$ we are talking about. If you don’t like it…don’t play. If your kid gets it…good, if he/she loses it…so what? I will continue playing for the chance to win $210 million. If my $1.00 sends one B average child to college, or puts one computer in a classroom, or puts one 4 year old in pre-K I am satisfied. Better it go to that than some pork project dreamed up by our incompetant governor and p*ssed away to line corrupt pockets.

By James

April 11, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this

There is no way HOPE should be tied to the SAT. That would be discriminating. Very rarely do you find a student that does really well on the SAT (1300+) who didn’t have some sort of tutoring or help. Those in the working and poor class do not have the funds to send their kids to SAT Prep classes. It would just start eliminating the lower classes from receiving HOPE.

By DB

April 12, 2007 8:57 AM | Link to this

James, your declaration that “very rarely do you find a student that does really well on the SAT (1300+) who didn’t have some sort of tutoring or help” is completely out of kilter with my experience. Most of the kids I know who placed in the 1300-1500 range were kids who had already demonstrated an ability and taken the SAT in 7th grade for the TIP program because they did well in school and/or standardized tests. And I can guarantee you that no 7th grader I know had an SAT prep class!! I only know of one high schooler who took a prep course, and that’s because a) he liked standardized tests and b) he was gunning for a 1600 (he came very close, but frankly, he’s one of those kids for whom that extra few points was probably a statistical deviation or simply longer acquaintance with AP Calculus.)

There are dozens of ways to prep for the SAT that doesn’t require special tutoring or a class. There are a zillion workbooks available at bookstores, libraries and even most high school libraries, as well as on-line preparations through the College Board, itself. However, one has to make the effort, and must plan to make that effort a little more in advance than two days before the exam.

The exam covers knowledge that is acquired over time. No amount of “tutoring” or prep classes is going to teach a kid calculus or geometry for the SAT, if they are one of these kids who are going to need remedial math once they get to college in the first place.

Frankly, if a kid is making straight A’s and can’t manage anything better than a 1000 on the SAT their junior year, one year before they graduate, there’s either a major disconnect in knowledge or a huge case of text-taking anxiety.

In 2006, the mean for the 58,000+ kids who took the SAT in Georgia was 990, with a standard deviation of about 100, which means that the score was actually somewhere in a range between 940 and 1040. That’s AVERAGE. Unsurprisingly, there is a direct correlation between GPA and class rank AND the SAT score — surprise, the ones who had the highest grades also had the highest scores. Average for those with B’s (80-89) were generally around a 940. A+’s (97-100) scored around 1220.

There are also statistics on reported family income and scores, which probably reflect a combination of factors. Only 2/3 of the test takers reported on family income, and of those, the scores were directly correlated to income: Less than $10,000 a year scored an average of 820. It creeps up until you have family income of over $100,000 averaging only 1,081 — so you don’t have rich kids making 1300+ on a regular basis.

All of these are Geogia stats, BTW. You can see them at http://www.collegeboard.com/proddownloads/about/newsinfo/cbsenior/yr2006/georgia-2006.pdf if you are so inclined.

I don’t think it would eliminate lower classes from receiving HOPE, if the SATs were set thoughtfully with regards to state means and averages. And it would provide an incentive for kids to make something more than an 80% (which, BTW, in my day, was a C-, not a B-, but times change … )

By JustMe

April 12, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

HOPE was intended to help college bound students, not ALL students go to college. It should be used for the best and brightest that cannot afford it.

It benefits our society to ensure that the best and brightest are well educated regardless of their socioeconomic statis.

If the less ‘best and brightest’ want to further their education, they can - just not with HOPE…….. IMHO.

By jim d

April 12, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this

Pardon me James,

a student that does really well on the SAT (1300+)

Did I miss something here? I thought 2400 is an ace.

By DB

April 12, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

JimD: You’re right, the new SAT perfect score is 2400. However, I think James is referring to the fact that most colleges are not yet taking into account the new writing portion of the SAT. There’s not enough statistical data yet for that portion to be a reliable indicator of performance. Every single college my son applied to this year (all 7, in and out-of-state)indicated that they would look at that score, but for comparison purposes, they were still computing in the original two portions, which add up to 1600. Most of us still think in terms of 1600 :-)

By Paul D

April 12, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

“local student”

We’ve left elitism in the dust. Elite higher education is what we had a long time ago when very few went to college and their attendance was correlated with social rank and maintaining social heirarchies. Dare I say, you and me and probably everyone participating in this discussion would have been locked out of college - not too mention probably too poor to afford private tutors, etc.

We’ve had - thankfully for me - a non-elite system for a long time.

If we were having a discussion that focued exclusively on the Ivies, that would be different. But we’re talking about a program that will take anyone who should be going to college (a “B” has, in the past if not still today, been defined as “above average”). And we’re talking about a system of higher education with several access points both in terms of academic expectations and geography. We can argue about the effect of HOPE on grade inflation, etc, but that’s a problem which has been present in the education system a long time and is related to other problems as well.

Eliminating tuition (as they do in Germany and Latin America - among other places) would actually increase relative costs for poor students. This is related to the “income cap” argument regarding HOPE. First, those who can pay, won’t (as in an income blind HOPE program). This offers greater benefits to already wealthy families becuase they can spend those college savings on something else (personal consumption: this was an effect of HOPE shown by Cornwell and Mustard when they discovered a correlation between HOPE scholarships and increases in new car registrations) while the state (i.e., everybody, but mainly middle-class citizens) foots the bill for not just needy students, but students whose families can afford full price. (In the HOPE example, this is mediated by the fact one can choose not to buy lottery tickets). It isn’t too much of a stretch to recognize that this type of system cannot sustain itself unless we’re willing to pay higher taxes (or the lottery). Given the political culture of Georgia, we’ll basically end up with bankrupt public colleges in a tution-free non-lottery model.

By contrast, in high-tuition, high-aid systems, those who can pay, do; and those who can’t are subsidized by the high-tuition others pay. It’s a simple transfer of wealth with small transaction costs and, importantly, which those paying the tuition choose to make. Of course, shifits away from need-based aid to merit-based aid have created new problems in this model. Who shows merit? “DB” makes the point above that “merit” is correlated to family income (simplisticly, this is because high earners tend to be college educated and value education, expecting their children to do so as well).

By JustMe

April 12, 2007 1:02 PM | Link to this

Paul D -

Yes, I agree with you. This is why IMHO there should be a connection between high ability (GPA, SAT, etc.) with financial need to get the HOPE. Some sort of ‘formula’ can be created to ensure that good students with financial need get the HOPE money first.

By catlady

April 12, 2007 5:56 PM | Link to this

The problem with HOPe going to marginal students is the other costs they incur: colleges have to offer more course sections, including remedial courses, students have a harder time graduating on time because they cannot get into their basic level courses (full of marginal students who registered first), and marginal students who lose HOPe, leave, and have significant debt from loans taken to pay for housing and board, for example, tie up funds and make choices based on those accrued debts. Marginal rich kids have parents who just pay it; marginal middle class and poor kids are saddled with debt and no degree. Of course, that is their choice, but it has societal implications for us all. So, to me, the idea of “just let them go and flunk out—it isn’t costing us anything” is not really true. Especially if your kid is at UGA, a truly oustanding (but not in the HOnors College) student who wastes time each semester taking “something” so they can get a full load because there is no room for them in the courses they want, and the marginal students drop the course (to prolong HOPE) but the seat is already taken and not available to your student…..I have seen this in action repeatedly at some of our public institutions.

By catlady

April 12, 2007 5:58 PM | Link to this

‘Course, what really gets me personally is seeing kids with 3.5 GPA who can only pull a 900 on the (old score) SAT. No way should that be considered an outstanding student!

By hll1955

April 13, 2007 5:57 PM | Link to this

Dear Lord People, will you all stop the nonsense…the influx of HOPE money to colleges can only be a good thing! It means more teachers, more classes, higher salaries, new buildings, more parking, dorms being built and upgraded. Where is the down side?

Tuitions are going to go up annually anyway…as will lab fees, books, parking etc. Those on traditional scholarships have it paid for them, those on HOPE have it paid for them, those not on HOPE…why aren’t they on HOPE? Couldn’t they get and keep a B average?

The HS issues of grade padding and AP vs CP vs Honors must all be addressed by the public school system. Neither Colleges,nor the HOPE trustees have a say in the public school system and its problems. Colleges can AND DO refuse students who don’t meet a certain GPA, SAT or ACT score. However, if a HOPE student meets the criteria of college admissions, who are you complain?? Your tax dollars are not paying for these students to attend. It isn’t a free ride on your back.

There will always be a lack of seats available in certain core classrooms. This is not due to “marginal students” taking seats that should be open to only the elite, this is do to: 1. the hours the class is available, 2. the perceived “easy” syllabus of the proffessor teaching, 3. the actual number of those particular classes being offered during any given semester.

If there are a lack of seats in upper level classes of any major, doesn’t that mean that ALL those students have earned their way into them by taking and passing the prerequiste lower level classes? Your point of HOPE kids taking a more deserving student’s seat is moot since they have passed too and deserve to be in whatever seats are available as much as anyone does.

lets recap:

The money IS NOT tax related. No one is dipping into your pocket to send any child to college. So HOPE really doesn’t affect you unless you have a child who earns the HOPE scholarship.

The money HELPS the college.

The money is given to EVERY better than average student. There is no student not getting HOPE because someone else did get it.

If your kid hasn’t wanked in HS, but has kept a B average, your kid can have HOPE too! He or she will have the opportunity to receive a free or at least almost free college education at whatever college will take the little bugger

and last but not least by playing the lottery you too have an OPPORTUNITY to win Millions and Millions of dollars…then your Whiney, spoiled rotten kids can REALLY have everything handed to them on a silver platter.

BTW

Do any of you remember when there were quotas of minority students being given scholarships and being enrolled in colleges to bring the race ratios to a certain level(they called that desegragation). There was a huge outcry of “THEY” are taking seats from students who deserve to be at such and such a college. THEY are using scholorship money that should be used for only blah blah blah. THEY will be dropping out, because THEY aren’t really smart enough to be in college. THEY will just waste the proffessor’s time in college til they see that they just don’t fit in..aren’t worthy…can’t keep up and drop out. All of these arguments are being used again. It was wrong then and it is wrong now…and for the record no one needs to compete for HOPE scholarships, there is enough for everyone! If your child doesn’t get HOPE, he may not belong in college after all.

By catlady

April 13, 2007 9:15 PM | Link to this

hil, I suggest you talk to a public college administrator, and see if the course sections paid by the state and open have kept up with the number of students attending. Or, better yet, talk to a first year student at UGA or Kennesaw and see how much fun they had getting a full load in the courses that fit their intended (future) major. Or a first year student at almost any public college in Georgia. I think your eyes will be opened. Also, see if you can get info on how many students enroll in a class and drop it. Check the percentages before HOPe began and now. You will see the exponential growth in drops. Or, look at time to completion data for full time students from, say 1992 and now. You will see that public college students since HOPE are taking longer and longer to complete a degree. It is not that they don’t want to complete the degree, but they cannot get finished if the course sections are not available. (You are aware that there is a limit on how many hours HOPE will pay for). You are certainly right about students preferring classes late morning to mid afternoon.

Also, since time to completion is longer, taxpayers DO foot some of the bill for HOPE scholars and all students who take longer to finish, since HOPe (and, indeed tuition in general) pays only a small portion of how much the college education actually costs (and I am not talking about room and board, but actually the cost of the tuition taken in vs how much it costs to produce the courses). The rest comes from our taxes and, to some degree, any grant money the profs manage to snag. Every kid that goes to college “dips into” my pocket by way of the subsidy that state taxpayers pay for our colleges. I think you are a little optimistic that the HOPE has brought all the good things you listed. It has changed the DESTINATION of students who would have gone anyway, and it HAS encouraged a few fence-sitters to “give it a try”, since the scholarship pays part of the cost.

Other costs : lost opportunity costs to student and family for those who lose HOPE and quit, and the taxpayer support of the federal loan programs that many students rely on to pay non-HOPE expenses. Those are significant costs.

So saying, I am not against college attendance for anyone. I have seen massive grade inflation, which makes the “Outstanding” part of HOPE a lie. That should be addressed, IMHO. However, barring massive loss of revenue, it will not be addressed. Just don’t call it HOPE. Such a high percentage of outstanding students would not lose the scholarship, if they were truly outstanding.