Get Schooled

By catlady

March 29, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

You rarely get more than you pay for. (Although our school is wringing every ounce of blood out of its teachers). We reap the “benefits” of these “cost-saving” moves. Like Bill Cosby said about novacaine, it does not deaden the pain, it merely POSTPONES it. And don’t ANYONE say “Well, I went to school when there were 40 kids in a class and there were no problems.” I don’t want to hear it. In the 3 decades I have been teaching, the behaviors and attitudes students come to school with are GROSSLY different from what they used to be. Emphasis on GROSS. Go into the school and SEE.

By high school teacher

March 29, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

Don’t forget that there is a teacher shortage, as well as classroom shortages. Perhaps this bill is to cut the amount of $ needed to fulfill the 28 in a class requirement. However, I don’t really want to go back to having 32 in a class!

By catlady

March 29, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

And why is there a teacher shortage? Colleges have been turning out teachers, but they have been leaving in droves.

By high school teacher

March 29, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this

Yeah, catlady, people realize that the summers off (ha ha) aren’t worth it!

By DiscCoach

March 29, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this

Ah well, at least they can’t overload a science class and expect them to do labs. 28 is the limit, and I believe that is a federal standard.

By teach overseas

March 29, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

Don’t think that classes will be “only” limited to 32 kids. When a regular ed class has a regular ed teacher AND and special needs teacher, that cuts the student/teacher ratio. The school can then add MORE students to the class.

By JustMe

March 29, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

IMHO, the most danger here is high school science classrooms. Can you imagine having that many teenagers in a room and you are responsible for their safety when they have to do labs with acid or with scalples?

Just wait until a student gets hurt or worse, killed. The teacher will be blamed and used as a scape goat.

By JustMe

March 29, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this

By the way, the number 32 is the “average” class size. This means that a science class could have 50 students in it if an AP English has 5 and an AP Art has 10.

By JustMe

March 29, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

DiscCoach -

Don’t believe that for a minute! Science high school teachers are still expected to do all of the labs even if there are 50 kids in the room.

By the way, the federal recommendation for a high school science class is 24.

By HS Teacher Too

March 29, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this

Catlady’s first post is right. But here’s another thing to consider — not only are the behavioral, etc. issues entirely different today than they were in the past, but the CLASSROOMS themseles are smaller! And that’s not even getting into trailers! They don’t even hold 28 kids!! (jimd, what do you lovingly refers them as? mobile learning units?)

Class size matters. It really does. How this latest “allowance” plays into the governor’s cuts, I can’t say, but my guess is they are (ahem) related.

By decaturparent

March 29, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

Perdue is an idiot. The majority of the state legislature are idiots. Cox may not be an idiot, but she is all to willing to cowtow to all the bubbas.. so that makes her a suck up at best and an idiot at worst.

I hate Georgia. I need to find another state. Are there any states out there that give a rip about education and actually get some results … where the temperature doesn’t drop below 0 degrees on a regular basis in the winter?

By jim d

March 29, 2007 4:29 PM | Link to this

Damn!!!

I guess I need to dump my portable classrooms stock.

By jim d

March 29, 2007 4:32 PM | Link to this

DP,

The only state I’m aware of that meets your criteria is the state of lucid dreaming.

By JustMe

March 29, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this

Teacher shortage? No problem! Just make the class sizes larger!! Who needs teachers?

Poor test scores? No problem! Just make the class sizes larger!! Who needs to pass?

By catlady

March 29, 2007 5:12 PM | Link to this

jim d—don’t forget the state of Denial. Then there is the state of Insanity. It would be far better to be in the state of Relaxation!

DP, how come so many of the states that might meet your expectations DO have temps below zero? Is there a relationship? We can even say correlation IS causation! And probably get a grant for studying it! Count me in!

By catlady

March 29, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this

I am so upset! I forgot the state of Agitation! (foaming at the mouth)

By OldSchool

March 29, 2007 5:16 PM | Link to this

And how about this? When our high school became “comprehensive,” the maximum class size for shop classes was 18. That’s also what determined the physical size of the shops. Now they’ve magically “grown” to accomodate 28 students without adding an square inch of space!

Never fear, the state dept is developing new names for everything and that will make it all better.

Yeah, right.

By decaturparent

March 29, 2007 5:55 PM | Link to this

Hmmmm…… maybe the cold air preserves brain cells. Perhaps down here the heat and humidity leads to premature brain decay.

By jim d

March 30, 2007 8:11 AM | Link to this

We’ve discussed reducing class size on these blogs before. The question still remains are we dedicated enough to foot the bill to reduce class size. Let’s look once again at the cost.

Reducing class size by 4 students in Gwinnett County alone would require an additional 679 classrooms and teachers. Assuming a portable costs somewhere in the neighborhood of $20,000 and a teachers average salary of somewhere around $40,000—the initial cost would be somewhere around $40,740,000 (incl. Benefits) for the first year and then $27,160,000 per year there after. Provided no expenses for maintenance or utilities were incurred, no walkways or additional staff were required and no expenses were incurred for setting up the trailers.

Since reduced class size has arguably been associated with test score improvements of only a couple of points, Are those increases worth the expense? Does reducing class size actually improve learning?

Other considerations that must come into play are the health issues surrounding trailers. (yes they really do exist—google it). The question here is, are you willing to increase your child’s health risks in order to reduce class size by 4 students?

The bottom line here is that I see no quick fix. Yes I’d love to see class size reduced but I’d prefer to see school size reduced to a manageable number of students and this will take a long term commitment from the community.

By Ernest

March 30, 2007 9:11 AM | Link to this

JimD:

Excellent analysis! You hit on the same points I planned to raise. There is a cost associated with class size reductions. IMO, there is a need for more transparency with the calculations so that taxpayers have a good understanding as to the investment requirements (brick and mortar structures, salaries, etc.) along with the potential benefits. If the taxpayers believe the benefits are there, so be it.

We need look no further than our two counties, DeKalb and Gwinnett. I believe DeKalb has more ‘school houses’ than any system in the state. It goes back to a former philosophy of smaller, neighborhood schools, i.e. small and many. Gwinnett has 50% more students than DeKalb yet fewer ‘school houses’ because of a ‘large and few’ philosophy, especially with many of the newer schools. There are ‘pros and cons’ to each philosophy. At the end of the day, it should be a local decision how to approach this.

By high school teacher

March 30, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this

We in education have many things backwards. In order to receive gifted funding from the state, a gifted class can have no more than 21 students. Now who would probably perform better in larger classes: the uber-smart kids or the “regular” kids?

I have taught all grade levels, and have had as few as 13 in a class and as many as 35. IMO, freshmen and sophomore classes should be smaller than junior and senior classes. I have had 32 students in Senior English, and though I had to labor through reading term papers, I didn’t mind the high number. Seniors are typically well-behaved, and they don’t have to take any EOCT’s or GSHGT’s (with the excpetion of economics). Save the smaller class sizes for the lower classmen, whose teachers have to worry about their students passing a test.

By jim d

March 30, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

Ernest,

Agreed. Personally I lean to a larger number of smaller schools since these environments have been proven to be a bit more sucessful at providing an education for our kids.

BTW, Were you aware that in Gwinnett a principal salary is based with a per student $$ on the number of students and that once it is given it is never reduced even if the schools enrollment comes down?

That current figure is $7.44 per student.

http://www.benefits-gateway.com/GCPS/HRRelatedItems/CompensationMaterials/InfoCompSalSchedSupplement.pdf

So what happens is a principal continues to draw a salary based on the largest school he/she was at even if they transfer to a smaller school.

Pretty sweet deal—huh?

By Ernest

March 30, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

JimD:

I tried to go to the hyperlink but ran into problems. I seem to recall Collins Hill was the largest HS in Gwinnett at one time with over 4000 students. Assuming this info is correct, it would seem this school would have a list of applicants partly because of the income earning potential. The key part I took away from you comment is once the salary goes up, it does not come down.

By jim d

March 30, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

Sorry about that.

Try this one in HTML

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:KiqrT1BFkvoJ:www.benefits-gateway.com/GCPS/HRRelatedItems/CompensationMaterials/InfoCompSalSchedSupplement.pdf+gcps+principal+salary+per+student&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

or here in pdf.

http://www.benefits-gateway.com/GCPS/HRRelatedItems/CompensationMaterials/InfoCompSalSchedSupplement.pdf

By jim d

March 30, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this

BTW Ernest,

Mill Creeek is projected to top those enrollment figures for CHH during the 2007-2008 year and grow even larger prior to the relief school opening over on Sunny Hill, sceduled to open in Aug of 09