Get Schooled

By Ernest

March 27, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

Look to your left, look to your right. One of you won’t be here in 4 years. This is what I recall hearing during freshman orientation before I started college. In my case, this turned out to be true, as those seating on either side of me did not finish.

While this is a ‘noble’ gesture, I’m not sure what they hope to gain from this. Do they want to do a better job of identifying likely candidates who will complete college prior to accepting them? Do they want to ensure the ‘safety net’ is in place to provide additional support to those that need it? IMO, they really need to perform substantial analysis on the reasons why people don’t complete college. This might mean adding moe ‘measures’ to help with the analysis. I’d also be curious to see the data over a 10 year period.

Who knows, as we’ve discussed before, having some type of ‘reimbursement’ plan along with HOPE might encourage more to complete since they would then have ‘skin in the game’. If there are penalties for not completion, some might think twice about dropping out (based on the reason, of course).

By HS Teacher Too

March 27, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this

For goodness’ sake! We have coddled these kids their entire academic careers, and now they get to college largely unprepared (this is a well-covered lament of university professors and well-documented in terms of remedial class enrollment) and what do they get?! An “all this can be yours one day” fake graduation?! GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!

No, I don’t think we should care about the dropout rate in general. The bottom line is that we are pushing kids to college who aren’t ready, who don’t need to be there, and certainly don’t deserve to be there. Where is the academic responsiblity of the students??

The only reason I think we SHOULD care — and I would love to see the numbers here — is that my guess is that many of these dropouts originally had the HOPE scholarhip, and effectively wasted money they ought never have had to begin with.

I’ve said this before, that I have big fundamental problems with the HOPE. Assuming it is here to stay, I at least think it ought to be available to sophomores and higher, who have proven that they can handle college-level work. Conditions: No remedial classes in the past two semesters, and a COLLEGE GPA of 3.0 (perhaps with a sliding scale for engineers. I am partial to engineers.)

By Jay

March 27, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

If you can’t graduate from Kennesaw State, there’s really no hope for you.

By OldSchool

March 27, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

Judging from the number of my students who know they are going to college but are clueless as to what they will do when they get there, I’m not surprised at all about the dropout rate.

I think it’s the Department of Labor statistics that say only 20% of the jobs require a 4 year degree or better. The other 80% require some sort of technical training. Those numbers have been consistent for as long as I can remember and likely won’t change soon.

So, why are vocational programs across the state being closed? Why was the Comprehensive High School program that gave us a marvelous variety of career/technical classes simply abandoned or merely underfunded into oblivion? I dare say dropout rates during the halcyon days of Vocational Education were lower and test scores maybe higher.

I miss those days. Students were oblivious to the class change bells because they were so involved in their work. Some even reported to school at 7 a.m. or stayed as long afterward as they could just for more seat-time in my class.

And they graduated, adequately prepared for college or tech school or the workforce…academically, technically, and socially.

By jsmom

March 27, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

Hm. I always thought that those 4 schools took on more nontraditional students anyway- people who have to work full time while they are in school or might even have to take semesters off.

Who cares how long it takes someone to finish college? There could be a million and one reasons why someone doesn’t do it in 4-5 years- and not a darn one of them should matter to anyone other than that particular student.

By des

March 27, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Obviously no one cares, especially the elementary, middle and high schools where they went. They were allowed to move on to higher grades when they didn’t deserve to. QBE was a joke. When you don’t have English as a subject and constantly see at what reading level a child is on, and they cannot read well, everything else is lost to them. What a joke.

By V for Vendetta

March 27, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

No, we shouldn’t.

Next question please.

By Lisa B.

March 27, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

I agree with Old School.

AND, if only 20% of jobs require a college degree, what would happen if all those who enrolled as freshmen ended up graduating? Where would they find employment? They still wouldn’t have the technical skills needed for the majority of jobs. Who would fill the Pharmacy Tech, Auto Repair, LPN, Welding, Cosmetology, Dental Hygenist, etc. jobs?

I am not sure if it was ever the intention of universities to graduate every student who enrolls.

By The World ISN'T FLAT

March 27, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

I am kind of torn on this issue, but it’s important that people finish college and if they need a kick in the a* at 21 it will surely benefit the state later on in the form of INCREASED TAXES FROM THEIR HIGHER INCOME.(statistics show college grads make FAR MORE than non-college grads) As far as it taking kids more than 4 years consider this. Under the old quarters system you got 3.33 credit hours per course, but under the semester system you only get 3 credit hours for the SAME course. In essense another semester was added to “4 yr” degree.

By jbean3

March 27, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

I am a 2 time college grad with 2 bachelor degrees. Did it help? Yes, I am making more money than working in retail. But it took me 5-6 years on both to get them. So what if it takes forever — as long as you get it.

What happened to all of the vocational schools?? Those persons who have a technical education make more money than me and are a lot happier.

Why are we pushing those students into something they may not be ready for, only for them to give up?? What is wrong with earning a living getting your hands dirty??

And what about those who dropped out of college?? Can we say Bill Gates????? Just look at the Forbes list of the BILLIONAIRES in the world — the majority of them NEVER finished college.

Enough said.

By beth

March 27, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

We shouldn’t care. Survival of the fittest. Those who intend to graduate, will, one way or other.

IF they offered a BS in Self Esteem, I bet we’d see a lot of graduates.

By Erik

March 27, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this

No, we shouldn’t care…those students will figure out where their futures lie on their own. It’s called life.

By scott

March 27, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

This is a problem nationwide and part of the problem is students are going to college unprepared for the harsh reality of receiving a syllabus and turning in your work on the due dates. Also, you will not see your professor half the time if he / she has grad assistants, so it is up to you to get a hold of them.

Also, the proliferation of the “colleges that play commercials during Jerry Springer” have devalued what college is about. You can not get a degree in 12 weeks and believe that equals the 4 -5 years of a traditional college education that occurs in and outside of the classroom.

By lovelyliz

March 27, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

There are many valid reasons for students taking more than 4 years to get a degree.

It took me 6. I had to work full time to pay for school and went part time one semester. I also switched majors which happens a lot either because the student realizes how wrong their intended profession would be for them or because the job market seriously changes. Then there are all those upper level courses that are offered rarely and at times that are inconvenient to the student or in conflict with other required coursework.

College is not a one size fits all experience.

By wwww

March 27, 2007 12:39 PM | Link to this

Is this for real??

I completely agree with OldSchool and HS Teacher Too.

This “problem” was created by the same people who need to find a “solution”.

By jim d

March 27, 2007 12:39 PM | Link to this

This comment is actually being said tongue in cheek here folks—thought I’d clarify that before panties got knotted up.

What do Kennesaw State, Georgia State University, University of West Georgia, Valdosta State University and Georgia Southern University have in common?

And the answer is; they all produce teachers! :-)

What’s that say about the drop outs?

By Janis Ian

March 27, 2007 12:39 PM | Link to this

“Only about a third of freshman who enroll…” would be the correct way to write the sentence. You are a journalist, dear B., and, while journalists aren’t known for being great stylists with language, you are the education reporter, right? You’re writing a piece about dropping out of college, right?

No wonder the AJC is losing subscribers; however, if the AJC is going to start relying on the on-line site to entice people to spend $$$, then the on-line employees should make a greater effort to present information in Standard Written English.

By jim d

March 27, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

On a serious note: Who gives a damn?

Take out the trash rather than spending money to store it where it will stink up the joint. Then let’s spend the money on preparing them better for college. (before they get there)

By lanerone

March 27, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this

In the Clinton admin. everyone was supposed to go to “collech” and waste a few more years. That’s part of the european socialism envy of the left, where in Europe everyone wanders through college for years and years. In the end it has only hurt the people who have been promoted past their abilities. These people needed to go to junior college or community college first; many did not have the mental abilities for anything more.

By Maria

March 27, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

While I didn’t attend any of the colleges mentioned in the article, I’m sitting here with the hunch that some of their classes aren’t exactly brimming with college-level work. When I was at UGA (1998 - 2002), people were making a fuss about how the level of academics there was rising sharply and how we should feel so proud to be a part of it, etc., but there were still some classes that made me shake my head in shame. The tests in my Intro to Religion class featured fill-in-the-blank sentences and an ever-popular “match the word to its definition” section. While I took a very demanding Honors Intro to Philosophy class with a professor that demanded a high level of discourse from his students, my best friend’s Intro to Philosophy course, taking place next door, was capped off with a multiple-choice final exam that emphasized simple recall over any higher level of thought (“Which philosopher said, ‘I think, therefore I am’?”). Classes like that belong in 10th grade, not college, and people who can’t make A’s in classes like that probably don’t have much place in college, either. Let those kids leave college and find a situation better suited to them, and let college classes become places of thought and analysis rather than just extensions of high schoolish (or, heck, middle schoolish) rote memorization.

Of course, this won’t solve the problem that so many jobs require a BA or BS as a sort of stamp that says a person has a basic level of cultural literacy and human functioning.

By meme

March 27, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

Yes we should care but they are now technically adults so we can’t force any more education on them.

By Barbara Rothschild

March 27, 2007 1:21 PM | Link to this

I totally agree that college isn’t for everyone. We put so much emphasis on preparing students for college- it’s wrong. Students who can’t write a coherent sentence in high school isn’t going to be successful in college. Students who can read above a 5th grade level aren’t going to be successful. Why are school boards/county admins so afaid of vocational programs?

On a different rant- I have heard my former profs complain of parents calling them and complaining about grades. When are parents ever going to allow their kids to receive the consequences they deserve? When these kids get a job, are the parents going to call the bosses and complain if their kids don’t get a raise?

I mean, really…

By james

March 27, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

Half of my friends dropped out of college (or got released) after freshman year because of poor grades. Why did they get poor grades? Too much time partying. How is that the responsibility of the college. If you can’t manage your own time, then that is YOUR problem…not mine!!!

By mw

March 27, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this

Most kids now come out of school with so much debt most probably will never be able to pay it off. In the end some are worse off when they do finish school because of credit issues later on.

By Kim

March 27, 2007 1:33 PM | Link to this

Kennesaw State University accepts more students than it has class space to accommodate. More student enfollment means more Hope and tuition money for a longer time. Kennesaw has no incentive to graduate students on time. Every semester, my son cannot get into many of the classes required for his major because they are always full by the time his assigned registration time comes. Hence, he rarely gets a full schedule. However, Kennesaw charges full junk fees whether you are attending as part time or full time. Whoever heard of a “Future Parking Deck” fee? Scam!

By Jim in Marietta

March 27, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

Anyone know what percentage of college freshmen from GA enroll in the noted schools compared to out of state freshmen? Do I need to ask? Isn’t it obvious more kids from GA are staying in GA to take advantage of “free” college education? The kids aren’t prepared for college level work, so they don’t even make it through their first or second semester. All college freshmen should get as much help from a given college as they are willing to look for. If you are not smart enough or motivated enough to get help, then you need to move on. Work to make the grade.

By jim d

March 27, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

I firmly believe the problem is that we’ve not only bought into the myth that college is for everyone but that we’ve sold that myth to our children.

Institutions of higher learning were never meant for the masses. When they first came into being in China and Greece they were reserved for the wealthy, the elite, for the true scholars. The masses went to work. I believe that concept would still work today and our youth would be much happier.

By Jay

March 27, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this

“And what about those who dropped out of college?? Can we say Bill Gates????? Just look at the Forbes list of the BILLIONAIRES in the world — the majority of them NEVER finished college.”

I hate when people bring this up. Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, not Perimeter College.

By Maria

March 27, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

Barbara R - I know you meant that last question rhetorically, but I have read several articles about the so-called “entitlement generation” entering the workforce and having their parents help them a little too much in their job search. Having Mom call the hiring manager to vouch for little Janie’s character wouldn’t fly at most companies, I should hope.

jim d - I agree with your 1:47 comment. I never saw college as a job training facility, but rather a place to learn more about things that had piqued my interest. Yep, I was one of those liberal arts kids who got scoffed at by the business majors.

By sk8trboi694evr

March 27, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

“‘Only about a third of freshman who enroll…’ would be the correct way to write the sentence.”

Actually, since we’re picking nits, “freshman” should be “freshmen” in your “corrected” version. Grow up, dear Janis!

By ltz

March 27, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

Hey Old School Glad to see someone’s asking the right questions. Can you follow the $$ trail?

By I'm with U

March 27, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this

The “who cares” crowd, that is.

It has taken my wife many years (10+) to finish college. Why? A previous career and parenthood. She will finish at KSU next spring and I am very proud of her. In my opinion, a college education is highly overrated anyway. It’s just a part of the game as far as I see it; to impress people with some “credential” as if that truely displays how knowlegeable you are. I’ll take my 1 year of college, life experience and near 6 figure salary over that B.S. or B.A. and 30 year student loan repayment anyday.

By jc

March 27, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

I work for a school who trains people for the allied health field. our doors are open for folks who don’t want the traditional way. at our school we have a 87% completion rate along with a 90% job placement rate. Our graduates go to work. It’s a shame our students can not get the hope scholorship. talk abour politics.

By Jeff

March 27, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

Kim:

Kennesaw’s registration system works something like this:

Athletes -> KSU Employees (including Student Assistants) -> Graduate students -> Seniors -> Juniors -> Sophomores -> Freshmen

Note that there IS in fact a way for even Freshmen to bump up to the head of the line: athletics or get a job on campus. Not even my connections - SEVERAL family members, many of whom work in key offices - could get me any better registration. HOWEVER, I was a student assistant there the entire time I was a student there.

Best advice to your kid: Find a job on campus. Some departments will only hire their majors, others will hire any students. But ya gotta be proactive about it…

By Former conservative

March 27, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

There is NO excuse to not finish college and to finish it in a timely manner.

I finished my B.S. in four years, my M.S. in two years and my Doctorate in two years. It can be done and you can still have a true college experience without wasting six years for one degree.

And, yes, I put myself through college by working and student loans.

Parents, quit coddling your kids and set some boundaries. Is it that hard?

By jim d

March 27, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this

jc,

if you’re into health care you’re already into eveyones pocket and don’t need the hope :-)

By OldSchool

March 27, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

I know our school (like others) gets Perkins money which is matched by the local system. It covers my extended day and instructional (consummable) monies. It also covers the same for for all the vocational programs in our system and folks, that money is spread pretty thin. Sometimes we CTAE instructors “pool” the money so one shop can get a much needed big ticket item. That means we have to prioritize our items and get only what’s really needed. I teach Engineering Drawing and have a subscription that keeps my computer software updated and I have some money to cover other supplies. It wasn’t enough in the beginning and it’s not enough now ($200 less).

Since I’ve been here, we’ve shut down 2 Industrial Arts programs and one Electro-Mechanical program with nothing to replace them. Those classes were vital to keeping students in school and were also good fits for many of our special needs students. Right now our students are working in outdated shops on outdated equipment and 1973 technology. I’m lucky…it isn’t so expensive to keep my program current…just to run it effectively.

Vocational programs are expensive to equip and expensive to maintain but the benefits are breath-taking. Next month, take time to go witness the Georgia SkillsUSA competition in the Gwinnett area. What those high school kids can do (where the programs exist) is nothing short of amazing!

By jc

March 27, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

jim d, are you really as dumb as you post?

By jbean3

March 27, 2007 2:55 PM | Link to this

Jay —

SO WHAT?? College is college whether it is Harvard or Perimeter. Maybe someone is impressed because that person dropped out of an Ivy League — still makes him a drop out. Besides, Bill Gates is STILL making more money than anyone WITH 7 college degrees!!

By KSU Alum

March 27, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

Oh for pete’s sake….college is not for everyone people….I went off Dean’s list and my parents pulled funding (this is in the commuter days too!!!!). I worked my butt off (literally) to get the money together to pay the next tutition bill….I remember standing in the Bookstore (days before the General Store opened) counting change to buy a text book. It took me 8 years to do it but by golly I have my sheepskin from KSU!

Don’t worry about drop out rates….if it means something to you you will make it happen

By jim d

March 27, 2007 3:00 PM | Link to this

jc,

are you or do you just not have a sense of humor?

By catlady

March 27, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

Previous posters have hit the Medusa on its several heads: grade inflation via HOPe has sent kids to college who were ill-prepared, public colleges do not offer enough course sections and students take anything to fill up their schedules, kids drop classes if they think it will bring their HOPE gpa down, students work too many hours to pay for things they “have” to have (cars, VISA, etc),there is a financial disincentive to get students finished in a timely way, and staying in college prolongs the childhood for some. Look at grad rates at private 4 year($30,000+) schools in Georgia and I think you will see a different story. They still have the same problems the public institutions have, but at $30,000 per year students have to get finished and get out! Except for the Emorys of the world, they draw similar students. Actually, it would be helpful to look at 4 year grad rates as well. You would find very few public institutions graduate students in “only” 4 years. My kids knew they had to forgo fiddling around, changing majors, and dropping classes because they had 4 years and that was it! They never had trouble getting into classes, however, and there might have been more of a campus ethos of holding onto the students. Nationwide, I believe, the data is similar to Georgia’s, so it isn’t just HOPE.

To the original question, I think it is a big waste of money unless you address the other issues first.

By landsaf

March 27, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

Sure I care, but not for reasons mentioned above. I’ve been going to school for 10 years. I class at a time. I have a great job (at a major univeristy). My husband and I do VERY well for ourselves and live way below our means. We also don’t have any debt. College is expensive. Being white and financially stable, I cannot get any type of financial aid. Because I am older, white, financially stable, and part time student, I cannot get scholarships. Why on earth would I want to incur a debt of a student loan? College should be available and affordable to everyone.

I dropped out of my first year of college. Why? Financial reasons. I was scared to death to incur alot of debt.

Sorry guys, I feel being debt free par time student is alot better than being a low paid college graduate with a lifetime of debt.

So think about that, not everyone drops out because of poor grades or partying.

By Chris

March 27, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

Don’t blame the system, start with the home. If kids were taught at an early age that you have to earn the things you want, college would be the climax. Back in the 80’s how many kids in high school got a new car? Not many. If you had a car you worked your butt of during the summer etc… Now, kids are getting whatever they want without working for it. You see 17 year old freshman with 06-07 Mustangs and not working a lick. So they don’t know how to earn something for themselves.

So when it comes down to school they feel as if they shouldn’t have to work because they will get what they want down the road. I don’t think they understand how business works. I had a 24 year old ask me for a raised based on what he TOLD me he knows. He hasn’t proven anything to me but he wants a raise. This is how they think.

Let them dropout of College and 10 years from now 50% of them will be right back in college PAYING to get that degree.

By Vince Dooley

March 27, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

By fed up

March 27, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this

Until someone wakes up and fixes HOPE, we will see people in college who have no business being there. Here’s how you fix it.

Stop tying HOPE only to GPA. There needs to be an SAT or ACT floor. If a kid can’t break 1500 on the new SAT (1000 on the old) they have absolutely NO business attending any 4 year college, period. Asking for 1500/1000 on the current SAT is not asking for much. A kid has to be dead or in a coma these days to keep from pulling a B average so there needs to be something to show that the kid can think his way out of a dark bathroom before we spend state funds on him.

HOPE is paid on the back end. The student gets a loan for the school year, and if they pass with a B average, they get that loan reimbursed. If they fail, they do not get reimbursed.

Revamp votech for Heaven’s sake. We could reduce the drop out rate by 50% if kids who aren’t college material could learn something meaningful to their lives.

By Chris

March 27, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

It’s great to be a Georgia Bulldog why? The largest party school in GA… with an escalating crime rate in Athens. WOW… something to be happy about…

KSU,GSU,VSU,SSU,Mercer,Clark,Georgia State,GT,Morehouse,West Georgia,FVSU and many more are universities also, having a degree means that your capable of handling multiple issues at any given time. Youalso attend a school based on your major and cost. You get paid just as much as a Clayton State grad would with at UGA degree.. And your job trained you just like any other College Graduate got trained. so whats the big deal…

By jim d

March 27, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

landsaf,

Congratulations and It appears you are happy living within your means and are debt free. But you did ask this question; “Why on earth would I want to incur a debt of a student loan?”

Some student loans go for prime plus a quarter percent interest. Wise investments can earn you considerably more than prime plus a quarter of a percent. So using the governments money to pay for your education and investing your money might potentially not be a bad idea.

By Vince Dooley

March 27, 2007 3:50 PM | Link to this

sounds like some here are jeolous they couldn’t get into Georgia.

By jim d

March 27, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this

Nope, Vince—my blood runs orange!

GO VOLS!

By old/new student

March 27, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this

Piece of advice: stop pushing college down your kids’ throats. College is not technical school. It was never created for the sole purpose of getting a job. College was created to learn more about subjects that interest you. My parents pushed me to go to college and get a ‘good’ job. I did and majored in business. I got a job at a bank for ten years and hated it. So, here I am 34 back in grad school studying English Literature, something I love!!

By Linda

March 27, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this

I think Vince bumped his head again.

By local student

March 27, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

And my blood runs Georgia Perimeter…uh, whatever my school colors are. GO…UH, UM,…whatever my mascot is.

By Erik

March 27, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

I imagine most Georgia students can’t get past college level biology given the anti-science bias in this state.

Question on biology exam.

What era did brachiopods appear 1. Jurassic 2. Cretacious 3. Precambrian 4. On the third day

Typical Georgia student’s answer: 4

By SET

March 27, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

Well, let’s see.. Our public secondary schools are schools in name only and in no way are being operated up to the standards we had in 1960. They produce “graduates” who are not literate nor housetrained. Yes there are brights in the public schools but that’s not what the schools are about. They are there for purposes other than educatation and training.

As far as our “colleges” - ignore the stated mission statement and look at what is really going on. The are businesses that exist to sell a product and to cash in to the extent possible. That’s why they relax standards.

If the “colleges” don’t want the high failure rate they will stop admitting students likely to fail. Nowadays which cheap computing power and actuarial science it is very cheap and easy to sort 5 or 10 thousand or more applications within a short period of time and spot the loosers. The SAT is an undisguised IQ test and the high school transcripts combined with the data on the quality of the secondary school are easy for a computer scoring system to handle.

For starters we can cancel every affirmative action program existant in education - and invite those with problems in their presentation to try it again later if something changes… I really suspect people will treat their high school teachers better if they know there are no breaks in college.

By Vince Dooley

March 27, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

Jealously makes you look ugly. Here’s some questions for you to answer, how hot are Georgia girls compared to Georgia Perimeter girls?

How many Georgia govenors had degree’s from Kennessaw State or Perimeter (or Georgia State for that matter).

How much would it suck to go to school in a craphole like Kennessaw or Perimeter while your smart friends went to Athens to party with hot chicks for 4 years, get drunk with 90,000 of their best friends every saturday in the fall and graduate with the most respected name on their degree in the state of georgia?

Answer those, Perimeter trash.

Vince

By John W.

March 27, 2007 4:44 PM | Link to this

Coach Dooley, I think you are a great Coach and leader, thanks for posting on these here internets with us. I think you are correct in your statement. Keep up the good work and Go Dawgs!

By Jenny

March 27, 2007 4:44 PM | Link to this

It never did make sense to me when I would read this in the job ads:

“College Degree Required or 5-7 years equivalent experience.”

Now how is that equal up? Some kid, whos parents paid for their college completely, spends most of his time partying, just “gettin’ by” and he gets the job that someone has been working their A*& off for for over 5-7 years just because he got a piece of paper saying he is a college grad. PLEASE someone explain this to me? How a slacker gets a job that someone who worked harder and longer will not get because he doesn’t have a college degree.

By Vince

March 27, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

Jenny,

I can answer your question because you seem like a nice lady. My mom used to tell me, the fair comes once a year. She’s right.

Vince

By Nick

March 27, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

As a graduating senior from KSU this May, it took me 4 years and it was fun. I enjoyed the school and learned a lot. There’s plenty of work you can find in this area with a lot more opportunities than college towns. Nothing wrong with that but being out of debt when I get walk is not something many UGA grads can say.

Kennesaw State’s on it’s way to improving graduation rates: - They’re raising the standard for admissions annually - They’re making on-campus housing to be more like other destination schools instead the commuter college mentality - They’re limiting the number of total withdrawels to prevent students from withdrawing each semester to keep GPA’s in line with what the student is actually achieving

Graduation rates do matter because what is the point of being paired up with someone on a group project with someone who’s just stealing from mom and dad? What’s the purpose of having the professor answer questions in class already covered but someone has missed the past six weeks? Graduation rates devalue my learning experience.

I’ll say this about the HOPE which has let me get a quality education without any debt. A High School GPA and a College GPA are not the same thing. Make a 3.5 HS GPA the requirement and then must maintain a 3.0 in College.

By old/new student

March 27, 2007 5:03 PM | Link to this

Most parents are trying to live through their kids. I have friends who actually would rather save for their kid’s college education than save for a rainy day or retirement. By the way, most their kids are ‘C’ students who hate school. Yet, they still are hoping and praying they get into Harvard or Princeton.

By Stillshakingmyhead

March 27, 2007 5:33 PM | Link to this

Just got caught up with all the comments from today - Jim’s still being fussed at for his “dry” wit, SET still hates all public school teachers and cannot pass a chance to let us know her true feelings, and we now have a new grammar police department that apparently did not learn grammar, but wants to act like she did.

So, on to the the college drop out question. I teach seniors in high school - all day, every day. Has anyone picked up on the fact that colleges in Georgia, because of HOPE, now admit students based only on(realistically)two factors? The almighty GPA and the SAT/ACT.

The bottom line is that no admissions officer can get a true feel for how hard a student will work in class based on just the GPA and the SAT score. So, many students gain entrance to four-year universities who need smaller, more intimate 2-year college experiences, while other students have to go to 2nd or 3rd tier schools (yes, Georgia has well-publicized “tiers” for ALL of its post-secondary schools)and prove their abilities. And I agree with the idea that if my child went to a $30,000 - $40,000 per year university he/she TOO would get out in four years. But I was much smarter than that. State school on HOPE works fine in my household on a teacher’s salary. That plan even left enough money for study abroad, internships, and summer intensives. Should I beat myself up over the fact that my youngest will take an extra semester beyond 4 years? You’ve got to be kidding. This question needs to waste no more of our time. The college experience today is so much more than it was even 10 years ago. If you don’t know that, then get out more. Talk to college kids. Find out about all the opportunities they have available to them. An education is more than a collection of professors - it is a collection of experiences. Who can put a timetable on that?

By Mr. Swollen

March 27, 2007 5:35 PM | Link to this

I suspect if you take a look at the real statistics that this is the same problem which causes the state of Georgia to have one of the lowest student score levels in the country. Its the afro-american, stupid.

If you want to argue this just take a look at the lowest states in the country. Same problem. They need some hard love, you can’t go round acting the fool and expect to accomplish much in school.

By DeeJay

March 27, 2007 6:24 PM | Link to this

I strongly agree that college is not for everyone and that much more emphasis should be placed on going to college to learn a valuable (e.g., marketable) skill rather than merely “to grow and find oneself.” However, I must disagree with those who maintain that college should be finished in 4 years. With more students than ever attending college today, many don’t have the luxury of being able to attend full time and have tuition, books, meals, lodging and transportation paid for. Ergo, they must work part time, if not full time, and hence, have less opportunity to carry a full load and maintain a reasonable GPA (something especially difficult with a major such as engineering, physics, chemistry, etc.) I know; I had five kids in college at the same time, all had to work, and only one graduated with a bachelors degree in four years. Yet they are all extremely bright and successful; two are now physicians, one is a registered nurse, and the other two are successful businessmen. In today’s rapidly changing world, a four year college degree is becoming less a reality and more an anachronistic expectation supported by nothing more than tradition.

By local student

March 27, 2007 6:57 PM | Link to this

Vince,

How much would it suck to realize you’re lying in a hospital bed with organ failure from alcohol poisoning after the frat party, and the nurse in charge of all that fancy equipment keeping you alive is a Perimeter grad?

Oh, and if you recover, graduate, and can get a job that accommodates your dialysis, you will always be saying “boss” to a Tech grad.

I have to admit, UGA does have superior access to fake id’s. They’ve got everyone beat in that area.

By Ken Roberts

March 27, 2007 7:07 PM | Link to this

Vince,

Did you really just claim that UGA is the most respected school in the state? You must have forgotten about Tech and Emory, both of which rank head and shoulders above UGA in all college rankings (except maybe BCS).

For the topic at hand, I think there is some merit in paying attention to graduation rates. Too many kids enter college without any idea of what they want to do as a career or even what they want to major in. They think just float around wasting the state’s money until they inevitably lose HOPE.

Colleges should do a better job of pointing kids in the right direction by giving them better academic and career advice.

I currently have 1 class at Georgia State due to a class conflict, and lets face it.. these schools aren’t doing the best job of education people. The state should do a better job of ensuring they are getting their HOPE dollars worth.

By HS Teacher Too

March 27, 2007 7:13 PM | Link to this

Why are so many folks hung up on graduating in four years? Bridget’s post clearly talks about measuring dropout rates in terms of SIX year increments.

And the arguments about people who have circumstances that prevent them from being full-time students, and who consequently take longer to graduate from college — well, they are all valid points, but I don’t believe that was the point of the article. As I read it, the point was more about “traditional” college students who STILL manage not to get through college in a TIMELY manner.

“college is college whether it is Harvard or Perimeter” … leaves me a little astounded. I will agree that an EDUCATION is what you make of it, but to compare Harvard to Perimeter is more than a little short-sighted. Apples and Oranges, if you will.

By Lee

March 27, 2007 7:23 PM | Link to this

There are several forces at work here:

• As other bloggers have noted, HOPE allows students to go to college for a year and drop out with no financial repercussions. Change HOPE to a reimbursement plan and see a lot of that go away.

• Change HOPE to a reimbursement plan and you also eliminate much of the pressure on high schools to inflate grades.

• With the exception of Georgia Southern, the colleges mentioned have a substantial percentage of “non-typical” college students. Working moms and dads, night students, and commuter students usually cannot take the full course load.

• It’s also a numbers game by these colleges. Look at the growth in student population, especially at KSU, UWG, and Ga State. HOPE has fueled a lot of this.

• I also agree with the bloggers who lamented the lack of alternatives in high school such as vocational tech. My semi-rural school system announced that they were going to a “college prep” curriculum. Why is it that these high dollar PHD educrates think that all students want or need to go to college? Just because you spent 90% of your life in school doesn’t mean that every one else needs to.

By Ernest

March 27, 2007 7:54 PM | Link to this

Oldschool:

Your comment @ 11:44, And they graduated, adequately prepared for college or tech school or the workforce…academically, technically, and socially is the current message for the DeKalb school system. As many have blogged, a majority of our students are NOT going to college. As a result, we are seeing ‘career tech’ additions being made to many of the HSs. They will offer programs such as culinary arts, allied health, computer technology, and building technology. Heavy tech, such as automotive, engine repair, etc. will be offered off site.

What is especially interesting is that they will offer ‘career education’ for MS students. At least now they will enter HS will some awareness of what options they have. What is lacking is general education for parents and the community, so they can help advise students of the options they have.

It remains to be seen whether this will succeed as they are rolling the dice with this.

By catlady

March 27, 2007 8:14 PM | Link to this

There are data out there that take into account student grad rates for full time students, rather than skewing the numbers some by adding in part-timers. The study that started this blog—is that full time or the mixture?

Get us the info on time to completion on HOPE students vs those who lose hope and those who don’t have it at all (are there some?) and on the breakdown on dropped courses. What we saw a while back was a tremendous number of drops, which is a waste of time and a waste of the state’s money (the large part not paid by tuition). Kudos to schools who are putting the brakes on this.

Ah, so many problems, so little real thought to solving them….

By GSU/VSU alum

March 28, 2007 8:22 AM | Link to this

Although I don’t think any changes should be made just because of the “drop-out” rate, I find this benchmark of six years to be perplexing. I worked full-time in a university job while completing my undergrad degree back when staff did not get free tuition. It took me eight years half-time, and sometimes I had to take a quarter off because of personal financial obligations, but I finished with no debt. I suspect that a lot of people are in the same boat. I do not consider us to be dropouts. I strongly believe that if the benchmark for college completion were changed to eight years, a more accurate look at the situation would result.

By dd

March 28, 2007 8:24 AM | Link to this

Graduating from college is sooo overrated! I have a BA in Chemistry and a BS in Environmental Science and warehouse workers make more money than I do…I should have been a mechanic or something because my education isn’t paying what it is weighing (i.e. debt, student loans, etc.!!)

I totally agree with what one of the previous posters said about some people (i.e. those who went to college and were not rich and graduated) end up in a worser position than those who drop out of college. You can get a good job without a college education and not have to worry about putting yourself in debt. HOPE is really a joke because it really doesn’t cover much. You still need student loans to cover the rest.

By College Grad

March 28, 2007 8:28 AM | Link to this

If you party to much in college you fail and I agree it’s there own fault. But when I was in highschool, I was unprepared for college and did not even know you had to take certain classes to get ready for college. I spent my first year in college making up classes for highschool. My fault, maybe, but no one really talked about going to college and how to prepare. I was an average student and it was funny to see all the top academic people in highschool, fail out of college the first year. Also my parents never went so they really had no idea how to prepare me, or offer advice. I think the school system should have a clear cut way to show what is needed to prepare to go to college. And to Maria, UGA has alot of classes that are very easy to pass, just like the rest of colleges in every state. Every class is not meant to be hard as hell, and when you take religion what did you expect? If classes were to easy for you then maybe you should have not taken the easy ones, and got a different major.

By V for Vendetta

March 28, 2007 8:31 AM | Link to this

Ouch jim, saw your post yesterday …

A Vol!? I should have known. :-) We would not be friends at SEC games. GO DAWGS!

By 3-time loser

March 28, 2007 8:48 AM | Link to this

I think the metric is misleading. I have 3 college degrees and it took more than 4 years to finish the first one. The graduate work took 3 years and 4 years because I was working fulltime, raising a family and going to school. I was too young when I started college out of high school and needed the time to grow up and I think most of our kids coming out of high school are in the same situation. The ‘fake-graduation’ is kitsch and a joke. I’d rather see them send the kids to a 2 week bootcamp that teaches them how to study or do something to help them understand that just showing up doesn’t mean you get a degree.

By WFC

March 28, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

I’ve read almost all of this blog and haven’t run into the REAL reason for most college drop-outs. All societies conduct a “weeding out” process to determine who gets which jobs. Many cultures do this during the secondary school years with testing and extreme tracking. In some traditional societies it’s done purely on the social class status of the parents. Here in the good old U.S.A. we decided long ago that college would be our “weeding-out” process. The HOPE program gives everyone a shot. It doesn’t guarantee success. A college degree isn’t all about getting a job (though that is important) but it DOES give an prospective employer an important piece of information about a potential employee: he or she had the discipline and perseverence to surmount many barriers to achieve a goal.

A COUPLE OF RANDOM COMMENTS:

By whocares

March 28, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Who gives a rats rectum. Let the losers fail I need someone cut my yard, flip my burger, wash my car and clean my hotel room. The Government seems hell bent on kicking the hard working mexicans out so these doped up, baby cooddled losers are going to be needed sooner or later.

By Blind Homer

March 28, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this

Too many students enter college that aren’t really college material and are generally poorly prepared by the public school system resulting in lots of dropouts and flunk outs. So what? The chaff has to be separated from the wheat eventually. Second point to all the Hope haters out there. While far from perfect this is a pretty good program providing opportunity to many who wouldn’t otherwise go to college. This isn’t state dollars or tax dollars, just funding by voluntary participation. And as I’ve written before the dropouts and flunk outs are probably still better citizens with enriched lives and earning potential compared to what they would have been with no college and no Hope.

By CDog

March 28, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this

The HOPE scholarship is simply too easily obtained. Grade inflation is rampant, so having the required “B” average means very little. Too many kids go to college who do not need to be there. They are academically unprepared. We must tie SAT scores to the HOPE scholarship. If you cannot make the national average on the SAT, you do not deserve an academic, merit scholarship. The “O” of HOPE stands for “outstanding.” Many receipients are far from that.

By MiddleSchoolTeacher

March 28, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

It took me 8 years, after switching schools, losing credits due to those switches and going part-time or sitting out, to get my first degree. I finished the second in 2 years. I thought I was the oldest graduate ever back in those days. 11 years later I’m doing great and I attribute the fact that I stayed in there no matter what. I have absolutely no regrets and am quick to share my story.

Kids today are given an unrealistic view of life. We pass them on as teachers because the administrators tell us to pass them. The tests are a joke. If you can’t pass the CRCT you should be retained. It’s as easy as a standardized test can get. But who cares? Not the administrators trying to save their jobs? They pass down the rules and as teachers we either follow them or lose our jobs! Schools should do a better job of preparing our students for the future. They don’t know what to expect because very little has been expected of them.

By jc

March 28, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

how about this idea, joining the military, get paid while you learn, utilize Tuition Assistance while on active duty, then after your hitch use your benifits to finish your degree of even get another one

By JD

March 28, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

A college degree isn’t all about getting a job (though that is important) but it DOES give an prospective employer an important piece of information about a potential employee: he or she had the discipline and perseverence to surmount many barriers to achieve a goal.

This is not 100% true. I can tell you I have worked with many college grads that were far from that. I don’t have a degree because I had to work to support myself and because school always came hard for me (the entire time) so I didn’t have the grades for HOPE or many other scholarships. I didn’t want to go into debt that is why I didn’t get a loan (mainly because I met many people who were paying those off 10 years later while struggling to feed and cloth their families that if they didn’t take that loan their families wouldn’t be struggling at all). It just got to a point I had to make a decision - work or be homeless. I choose to work. It wasn’t easy and I have worked VERY hard to get where I am today and I am very proud of myself, but there are people out there that look at me as not disciplined or lacking perseverance because I didn’t go to college. I am far from that. If I wasn’t I wouldn’t be living the lifestyle I have earned and worked my butt off for.

I actually worked at a company who hired a college grad and gave him the position of manager over a group of guys that had, at least, 15+ years personal experience each in the field they did – none of them had a degree. All the college grad had was that he had read and was tested in a chapter about that field. How does that make him better for the position that they didn’t give to one of those guys because “they don’t have a degree and the management position requires a degree.”? I am with Jenny. I also believe that college grads should start with entry level positions and have to earn a management position. I have seen and heard too many times how hiring a college grad to a high position back fires because they only “read” about stuff or “got an A on that test” (not telling you that it was scaled and out of 50 questions he got 31 wrong) and have absolutely no idea what they were doing and shouldn’t of been in that position to begin with. These kids just show you want you want, a degree, but you have no idea if they lifted a finger or worked hard. I also think they should ask for your GPA and I think employers should look more into a possible employee’s college transcripts, etc. They would be surprised to see that they didn’t do much to get that degree most of the time.

By Retired Teacher

March 28, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

My child brought home the “Bulletin for AP Students and Parents” pamphlett a few days ago. I quote from page 4:

“The AP Program isn’t just for the top students or those headed for college.”

Why then is it called Advanced Placement? If this level is not necessarily for the college bound student, is it any wonder that so many students who enter colleges are not prepared for the experience? Many student in Georgia take AP to enflate their Hope GPA. What about the elite students?

By Retired Teacher

March 28, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

I apologize for the typo. I do know that it is spelled “inflate.”

By Whit N.

March 28, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

I can tell you this. I worked at a company that was growing very quickly and needed more employees. So, they hired a bunch of college graduates after advertising on some local campuses. Soon after that my boss comes to me and asks me to look at some e-mails he got. They were all PTO requests from all those new hires from the local college - all at the same time: Spring Break (in Mexico). I couldn’t believe it. Because they did that all of us couldn’t be sick or go anywere that week and my boss’s kids had that week off too and he had told his kids the night before he would take time off so he could enjoy Spring Break with them (they are 6 & 8). Well, they beat him to the punch and he had to tell his kids he couldn’t take the time off. Also, because of their position, we had figure out and guess at everything they left behind because they changed everything so they “could understand”. Very fustrating and time consuming (we all worked 10+ hour days because of it). When they got back they were told pretty much not to pull a stunt like that again. Their attitude was they are adults and can go and do whatever they want. Lets just say the company handbook was changed because of them (due mainly to the fact that the VP of the company had to work overtime too because of them). Within a year they all left because “they didn’t think they were paid enough for what they did”. What did they do? Nothing really, just took a lot of PTO, talked on the phone to friends and did very little actual work. Not very productive and they were hired because they had a degree in the position they were hired for. Now we require not just a degree for those who will be over someone, but at least 3-5 years management experience too.

By jim d

March 28, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

V,

I don’t know. By half time at the Ga / Tn. games everyones friends. :-)