Get Schooled

By jim d

March 21, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this

What is going on?

Perhaps some of the students value an education and some don’t. And just perhaps this is further evidence that some of the students should be offered more technical training rather than expecting they continue their educations in a college setting.

Whatta think?

By Jeff

March 21, 2007 8:34 AM | Link to this

FROM EXPERIENCE:

The black kids don’t give a crap (putting it politely), and just want to talk/ fight/ generally disrupt the class and not do anything. The white kids typically will at least DO the work, even when they don’t like it.

Hence the disparity.

By WFC

March 21, 2007 8:48 AM | Link to this

Retired now so I can speak my mind. Unlike Jeff, I’ve had dozens of great African-American students. However, almost without exception, they test considerably lower than I would expect them to based on my observations in class, their homework and classwork. I’ve puzzled over this for thirty years and have reached the conclusion that it’s mostly about reading comprehension. I’m no expert on African history but I have to believe that there is a reason this region lagged in the development of written language. Of course, we can’t examine even the possibility of racial (cultural) differences without violating the “Code of PC.”

By jim d

March 21, 2007 8:51 AM | Link to this

Mornin Jeff,

How’s the new job going? Did ya get moved?

By KA

March 21, 2007 8:56 AM | Link to this

I agree with jim and Jeff and would like to add that because of their lack of academic diligence, the failing students are probably POOR READERS. The end of course tests are not difficult, in fact they are usually pretty easy. POOR READERS don’t have large vocabularies, can’t follow written directions, and can’t read fast enough to do the tests in the time allotted. Take all of them out of subject classes, put them in reading remediation ala Reading Bootcamp or Reading Railroad to get them back on track. Better yet set all of the class subject matter to popular music, give them i-pods, download the subject matter songs to the i-pods, and let them sit for 6 hours a day, every day listening to the songs. Then test them with a text message phone system, and I bet most would pass the tests then.

By msbzzy

March 21, 2007 8:58 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

what an ignorant comment. Having 3 black children I can tell you that is not the case. And for the majority of the black children I’ve seen in schools, you are totally wrong. Lumping in a few bad apples and labeling an entire race is ridiculous. Hhhmm, from your example all whites are racist and bigoted because you are!!! End of course test are pretty standard from what I’ve seen, all material on these tests may not have been covered in class. Especially if the test is given 3 weeks before the system ends. Whatever happened to final exams developed by the teacher, questions will actually cover the material that was taught throughout the semester. Teaching to the EOCT test shortchanges the students.Couple that with block scheduling and its not wonder kids are failing miserably—-Some subjects require a full year of instruction to properly prepare students

By Jeff

March 21, 2007 9:08 AM | Link to this

LOVE the new job! Unlike teaching, the challenges are FINALLY all me vs myself, and I control my fate. Though my time teaching led me exactly where it was meant to: I started dating a new lady right around the time this job started talking to me, and ummmm…. I’m about to upgrade her status……

Got moved. Now living in Warner Robins, right on a large private lake. Heard some big planes overhead yesterday, but didn’t look up to type them. LOVE the place though. Compared to this time last year, I am 100,000,000 times happier!

By dan T

March 21, 2007 9:14 AM | Link to this

One only has to sit in a high school classroom for a week to understand what creates such a hugh disparity. It is called not giving a crap and having no one at home to tell you to give a crap.

By Jeff

March 21, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this

msbzzy:

I am not a racist at all. But I HAVE worked in one system where I had three majority white classes, one evenly balanced class, and majority black class, as well as working in another system where 95% of my students were black, and my comment holds true. From my experience, you can tell me a student is being chronically disruptive and I can tell you that at least one of two things is probably true: the student is “EBD” or black. Again, that was MY experience. Were the white kids disruptive? Frequently, yes. But it was primarily incessant talking to their neighbors. If you separated them, they generally got quieter. Not true with black kids. They will shout across the room to their friends, and even get out of their seat for no apparent reason other than to attack another student, which was quite frequent in the 95% black situation I was in (and I have the scars to prove it).

By KA

March 21, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this

msbzzy, Jeff was not generalizing, nor labelling an entire race. He qualified his statement at the beginning saying “from experience.” That would be from his classroom experience. The topic of this blog today concerns the fact that Blacks and Hispanics are not performing well on the end of course tests, and we are all giving our opinions for the reasons. Even WFC, a retired teacher says the bright black students don’t test as well, and he thinks it’s because of poor reading comprehension. I agree with him, as READING is the key. You proved our point when you said that all the material on the tests may not have been covered (orally) in class. It was probably part of the required READING that these students could not or would not do. Think about it. This is not about bigotry and racism, it’s about identifying WHY two ethnically identifiable groups of students are not testing as well. Lack of diligence and poor reading skills seem to be two plausible reasons. Do you agree or disagree? And why? No race based answers allowed.

By jim d

March 21, 2007 9:40 AM | Link to this

Morning Mr. T,

You really think so?

I’m not too ssure thats it. I recently read an old paper on this topic that was writen by George Farkas from the Department of Sociology and Population Research Institute — Penn State.

You may be interested in reading it.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:BiopryhTU1sJ:www7.nationalacademies.org/cnstat/Farkas.doc+racial+disparity+in+education&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

By dan T

March 21, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this

I’m with Jim on this one. Why do we have to act like everybody is goign to college. I look around my classes and see people that will not and have no intetions on going to college. I often ask myself why do they have to know the things Not everybody has to go to college to be successful. I spend 70% of my time trying to teach the 40% in my class that care nothing of my subject or school. How stupid is that. Finally, when it is all said and done those 40% don’t pass the test anyway. What a waste of my time and energy when I could have been teaching the 60% more material. Welcome to public education. What to do with those 40% ???? Teach them a trade or at least give them the opportunity to take classes to learn a trade. That is better than letting the 60% suffer.

By terry

March 21, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

Now lets compare the test scores of asian,indian & african kids against the whites I bet you they are far better! Lets compare the test scores of white kids from deep rural Ga compared to black kids from atlanta I bet they are about the same or better,lets compare the white kids from alpharetta scores to the white kids from rural Ga. I bet there is a big difference!

By Ernest

March 21, 2007 9:55 AM | Link to this

I agree with the point that developing reading comprehension skills more than anything else, is the ‘silver bullet’ for success in school. I look no further than my household where I have one child that is a voracious reader and the other only reads when he has too. Admittedly, there is a difference in their communication and writing skills as a result, making me realize as a parent I’ve got to address this sooner rather than later.

By bill cosby

March 21, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

there’s always room for jello

By dan T

March 21, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

Jim morning. You shouldn’t always believe a Penn State grad. Seems to me like Farkas is skirting the issues and making excuses for under acheivement. I read that same paper in under grad. In my situation here alot of the reasons he sites are nonexitant yet the problem still exists.

By high school teacher

March 21, 2007 10:16 AM | Link to this

34 percent of blacks and 39 percent of Hispanics passed the exam compared to 70 percent of whites.

Is this the state wide result? I’d like to see it broken down by school, and by each teacher. I’d like to know the race of the teacher. I’d like to see the racial make-up of the teacher’s classes. Maybe I’m just being naive, but I don’t see how a biology teacher could be racially biased with regard to teaching methods in the classroom.

Or is the test is culturally biased? If so, how can that be remedied?

Who is to blame for the disparity in test scores? Is it the teacher’s fault?

Just questions I’m posing; I don’t have the answer either.

By Monica

March 21, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

If it truly is a reading comprehension/don’t give a darn problem that is inherent in one’s racial heritage, then how do we account for the test performance of GA charter schools that educate a high percentage of black and Hispanic students, many of whom are low-income?

My own charter school is struggling but improving dramatically academically. (I attribute this to the quality of our teaching staff.) Our student population is nearly 20% special education and 100% dropouts who have returned, so we’re a different animal from a typical public high school. However, there are many GA charter schools that far outperform the state average, such as Tech High and KIPP WAYS (middle school) in Atlanta. They get 100% proficiency on CRCTs and GHSGTs, with close to 100% minority and low-income enrollments.

I know that charter schools are “chosen” by the parents & students, so there is a motivational factor there. Nonetheless, many of these students were not performing or achieving in traditional public schools. I think high expectations and excellent teaching that challenges and engages and shows the students that the teacher cares deeply about them AND the subject makes the difference.

By Janine

March 21, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

So, looking at that “achievement gap” , my question is *Why were 34% of black and 39% of Hispanic students able to pass *? Could that possibly mean it has nothing to do with race/culture per se? Does that mean that the test/teacher/course material covered is not the problem????/ Seems to me that’s something to look at.

By Janine

March 21, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this

Just one personal experience. In my middle school, the county mandated that ALL 8th graders be placed in Algebra I and all were given the End of Course test. Many in the classes could not do simple operations and were totally unprepared for Algebra. You can imagine trying to teach such a class. I’ll bet lots of those classes are loaded with unprepared student, whether unprepared because of reading deficiencies or behavioral issues or just unprepared to put in the time required.

By msbzzy

March 21, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this

jimd, I agree that reading skills are necessary, its my opinion that many parents and the schools here in GA do a really p** poor job of making sure everyone (black, white, purple, green, beige—whatever) has them. I’ll also agree that a willingness and desire to learn is key. I attribute the disparity in test results to a combination of factors such as poor parenting skills, socioenomic status, and a lack of access to remediation programs. I also agree with the idea that schools are under the impression that everyone wants to and should go to college. There are plenty of great jobs out there that do not require a college education. I joined the military right out of high school and attended college afterwards because I knew I wasn’t ready for it. While I would love for my children to experience all that college has to offer, I’m open to the idea of them learning a trade such as carpentry or becoming an auto mechanic. Business courses can be taken later, as they figure out what it is they want to do. Do I still expect good grades and behavior, damn right I do. But I also recognize that college is not for everyone.

By KA

March 21, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

Monica, I certainly did not mean to imply that poor reading and ‘don’t give a darn’ attitudes are inherent in either group. The lynchpin to attendance, diligence and attitude is parents who ‘give a darn.’ In your charter school the parents and students do give a darn, are working, and so they are performing well. Poor or absent parenting is certainly one factor at the root of poor student attendance and performance. How do we educate the parents that don’t give a darn so that they will help their children?

By Janine

March 21, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

Bridget…Terry@9:51 mentioned Asians. ARe there any stats on the pass percentage of Asians? of Jewish students? I know I have read many times that both of those ethnic groups do quite a bit better than the general populations. Do we ever look at why? Could that be helpful in investigating the “gap” that is concerning everyone today?

By HS Teacher Too

March 21, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this

High School Teacher is right. There is more to the issue than simply looking at aggregate percentages. Anyone with even half a brain and any knowledge of statistics — even common sense knowledge — could tell you that. It’s ignorant to think otherwise.

Take any statistic out of context and you’re left with a meaningless number. And in the case of end-of-course test passing rates, I would say those are meaningless numbers to begin with, and that is based on experience with the tests. They are definitely on the short list of biggest jokes in Georgia education.

By Janine

March 21, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

msbzzy…Unless and until Ga. is able to recognize and accept that, as you say, “college isn’t for everyone”, we are going to be hopelessly confounded by this “achievement gap” ,which, by the way , is nothing new. It’s just that 30 years ago…or even 20, there were other paths offered to those students whose interests and/or abilities were not addressed by the college prep path.

By terry

March 21, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

Why do we need to compare races when it comes to test scores? bottom line is Georgia’s test scores have been ranked the lowest in 50 states for the last 20 years! So if the white kids in Georgia test scores are better it is probaly still lower than blacks & hispanics up north whose test scores are ranked higher in the country.

By wwww

March 21, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

Monica:

To answer the question you posed regarding minority students in charter schools achieving at a higher rate:

Parents and extended families of those children are often VERY involved in their child’s education, often READING to and with them before they start school. THis is hugely important. It really does all come down to reading and vocabulary ability. When that foundation is there, which it often is in homes where education is valued and fostered, then children do well, regardless of skin color.

Charter schools are very popular with minority parents who do not want to send their child to APS or another city or county school system that caters to the lowest common denominator - thank NCLB for that one. So, they choose the charter route. Look at where most charter schools are located for more evidence.

It’s not that charter schools are inherently better, but instead it’s about what children attend and what is reinforced at home.

By HS Teacher Too

March 21, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

Bridget,

“This disparity struck me because these exams are given at or near the end of the course.”

This isn’t an attack on you, but the system: But the exams are HARDLY given at or near the end of the course. They were given over a month before the end of the courses last spring, shortly after spring break, and on a daily schedule that disrupted the entire two weeks’ worth of class time in non-testing classes. Throw in that over the year we’d already lost nearly 20 days to various testing schedule changes, and the exams may as well have been given in February.

In a class such as math, those four weeks we lost at the end of the year to give the exams so early are VERY SIGNIFICANT and to call the exams “end of course” is not only a misnomer but an injustice, most especially to the kids who really needed that time to learn and/or review the material.

Then, once we do all that, they don’t even grade them in a meaningul, “translatable” way — they see all the scores and establish a scale.

If there ever was a joke, Georgia’s EOCTs are it, from the word “go.”

By Teacher, Too

March 21, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

You can’t segregate test scores by religious demonination, only by enthinicity.

By JustMe

March 21, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

The achievement gap in scores has been a “dirty little secret” for years.

The College Board that administers the SAT is well aware of this. In addition, they “norm” the scores to try to correct for this. [Translate the word “norm” to mean that they bump up the scores for ethnic minorities.]

Interestingly, most think that Asians scored better than whites. However, in the US, 3rd and 4th generation asians score more like blacks. What is going on here? Who knows….

By Janine

March 21, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

Regardless of when the tests are given….more than 1/3 of black and Hispanic and more than 2/3 of white students passed....even though there is a difference in pass rates, a lot of kids of all races did pass!!!What’s the deal?

By SET

March 21, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

Boo Hoo.. And this is news? There have been scholarly books written about black academic performance - by blacks… Try John McWhorter’s “Loosing The Race”. Then there’s D’Souza’s book.

Because the Educrats and the runaway federal courts refuse to test black students (as opposed to Asian students) for IQ, the black students neither know their own scores nor have any awareness of how brain processing speed works (as applied to such things a Calculus). When the black students get themselves enrolled in, say, US History - any subject that might have time pressure testing, they are at a BIG disadvantage. They are also running into trouble on DMV multiple choice exams once time limits are imposed.

If the truth were actually taught, at least the players would understand what’s happening. Instead people try to say that those who score lower are “not trying” (which can be true) as opposed to many of them being over their heads or have been placed in situations where their skillset dooms them to failure.

Only one black in six is at or above IQ 100. Read “The Bell Curve”. Why are we so surprised at what is happening all over the world? And the blacks that are pulling ahead of the crowd (in academic skills) aren’t exactly very dark either…

Stop beating up the horse and start finding a place in society for people to exist at the level they are. And that means we stop importing millions of 3rd world foreigners to take all the entry level and minimum wage jobs - leaving no honest work for the bulk of the US Blacks (who aren’t leaving unless they are killed off - which may be happening actually).

I’m not trying to shock anyone. The studies that led to the publication of “The Bell Curve” were common knowledge for generations - to begin with the US Army draft testing stats going back to WWI. We can argue why the IQ gap exists but we can’t argue it is with us. Now what are we going to do to keep the left side of the Bell Curve functioning as members of Society? Throw Chemistry Classes at them and berate them when they fail?

By Janine

March 21, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

SET…as you know, we have discussed the issue of offering a path for our students on the left side of the Bell many times. I agree with all that you say….THis gap has always been with us, [ see Janine @ 10:49 ] but our current infatuation with PC’ness has demanded that we now bemoan the facts and try to do something to change them.

By Zoe

March 21, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

Remember that the Winter tests were probably given to students that had previously failed at least one semester of a class and were making the class up. I know that if one has a class full of students that failed the first time around, chances are the pass rate isn’t going to be that great. Throw in the fact that if a student has at least an 82 going into the ECOT, s/he, even if if the student received a zero, the student would not fail. Kids calculate exactly what they need to get to pass.

By jim d

March 21, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

Mr. T,

Whatta mean we shouldn’t always believe a Penn State grad? :-) Don’t let Mr. L hear you say that!

I think while farkas appears to be skirting some of the issues that he was clear that this paper was based on descriminating factors that may affect how somw students learn. Personally I don’t believe there is a single answer to what I percieve as a very comples question. Might he be correct in that this is A factor? Perhaps. It definitley gives one a little something more to consider than “they just don’t care” or “they never learned to read.”

From what I’ve read on this subject the disparity rings pretty true across most IQ and socio-economic ranges which would lead me to believe it might be affected more by issues not generally related to ability or education itself.

By hssubteacher

March 21, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

I sub in my local high school almost every day and have for a couple of years. I sub for all grade levels and in every kind of class (including special ed and gifted).

My anecdotal observation has been that overall, the black kids are disruptive and inattentive in class—their behavior in the classroom is just not conducive to learning. I’m not surprised at all that their test scores are different. The white kids can be disruptive and inattentive, but as someone already said, when separated or threatened, they generally straighten up.

There are some very bad (scary, crazy bad) white kids for sure, but they act alone usually. There are actually more individually disruptive white kids (mostly boys) than black kids. But they can be sent from the room one at a time if necessary. The majority of white kids usually seem disgusted with the bad kids too. They don’t want the bad kids to get them in trouble so they don’t encourage them as a rule.

The black kids who misbehave aremostly loud, often defiant, and when they get in trouble for it, they get angry, defensive, and sometimes physical. I have more trouble with the black girls actually than the boys. If one of them gets in trouble and gets angry, they all get angry. If they get in trouble, they never believe they deserved to be in trouble. They always claim innocence. Always.

I’ve noticed that the black kids are not as upset with other black kids who misbehave. They seem to rally around those kids and then begin to misbehave as a group, almost in solidarity.

Even the well behaved black kids seem to be easily swayed by their less well behaved peers. If their peers are not working on task, they will not work either. They drag each other down easily. Overall, its like they often seem to behave more as a group than as individuals. In most of my classes, the majority of black kids are only as well behaved and focused as the two worst behaved black kids in the room.

The very high achieving black kids are definitely ostracized by their peers. (Often children of teachers, I’ve noticed.) They will have white friends, of course, but the black kids seem to completely avoid them.

In my hs school, the white kids are mostly rural whites (with some exceptions) and the black kids are affluent kids who live in a couple of newly built golf course communites. Their parents are supportive and involved more so than the rural white kids in my observation. So its not all parenting and its not all lack of aspiration.

I don’t know what the problem is. I want to say they suffer from a kind of pervasive group think that keeps them from achieving their individual potentials.

There is one more thing I have noticed as well. They seem to have more of an issue with legitimacy of authority than the white kids (and way more than the Asian kids). And this is important, in every single class that I’ve subbed in where the primary teacher is black, the black kids are well behaved and focused even when she’s not there. They do their work, they respect my authority, and there is almost no difference in the behavior of the white and black kids. The behavior of the black kids is worst in classes where the primary teacher is a very young, 20ish, white woman.

Its lead me to believe that if I were a black parent with high aspirations for my children, I would move heaven and earth to be sure my kids had black teachers whenever possible.

I want to add to the black parents who are angry with what I have written, that I’m writing all this with a good heart. This is a big problem for black kids and someone has to finally start speaking the truth to you. Everyone in the system is afraid to say what they know to be true and say privately to one another. If you are reading this blog, you care about your kid’s education, so please take my observations in the spirit in which they are offered.

I encourage you to go to your child’s school and sit in (or somehow peek in so they can’t see you) to different classes and see how different the behavior is between classes that are largely white and classes that are largely black. The noise level, the concentration level, the work ethic of the students, the respect the students show the teacher and each other is starkly different. You will be stunned by the difference.

By scott

March 21, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

Once again, a bunch of stereotypical wide paintbrush answers and opinions. Let’s begin looking at other factors such as school facilities, poverty rates, number of faculty with more than 5 years of experiences, et all. This is not a new issue, the problem is schools and the public can not look past their own biases and stereotypical opinions.

By Janine

March 21, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this

States that have a high pass rate/high scores on End of course tests/SAT /ACT do not have every Tom, Jane, and I’mjustnotinterestedintrigonometry taking the tests!

By Janine

March 21, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

Scott I’m just not able to grasp this.. [keeping Bridget’s percentages above, ]. Let’s say in an Algebra class of 30, with 15 black students,..5 black students [1/3] pass, 10 fail, and of 15 white students, 10 [2/3] pass and 5 fail…Overall, for teacher/school accountability purposes, 50% of the students pass…Does this have to be a race/teacher/ issue? How did those 15 students pass? I’m with SET on the Bell Curve thing.

By JustMe

March 21, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

Hi All!

Okay. I am going to post here and I fear that some will get rather upset with what I have to say… I have two things to mention here:

I believe that the real question is this…. Whites are the majority (currently) and our society has its foundation in Europe (white culture). Should we expect other races and cultures to conform to our “standard” or should we alter the environment in the classroom to suit thier particular culture?

As a white teacher, I do not allow cussing in my classroom. However, I do see some african-american parents readily cuss with their kids and also allow their kids to cuss at them - it is accepted in their culture. Should I be forced to adapt to their culture, or do I create an environment that is more like our general society?

These cultural differences, IHMO, have a lot to do with the achievemnet gap in scores.

Asians in asia have their own culture that encourages high performance and so their scores are high. When those same asians come to the US, after a few generations, their scores drop - I think because they have changed/altered their culture.

By Jeff

March 21, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

hssubteacher:

Your comments regarding black teachers is descriptive of EXACTLY the racism that was directed TOWARDS me as a white teacher in a 95% black system….

By jim d

March 21, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

Janine,

I don’t see it as a matter of course difficulty since even states with high pass rates show about the same disparity along the racial divide.

It’s not just Ga. there appears to be a trend wherever children are educated.

By Truth Filter

March 21, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

The “Achievement Gap is a Dirty Little Secret?” You obviously haven’t looked at the State Report Cards or NCLB Reports. It’s pretty obvious and is openly talked about.

Also, the End of Course exams for the winter are mostly taken by students in Block Scheduling schools (like the one I’m familiar with) — not kids who have failed classes in previous years.

By scott

March 21, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

“Ignorance is bliss”

“Only one black in six is at or above IQ 100. Read “The Bell Curve”. Why are we so surprised at what is happening all over the world? And the blacks that are pulling ahead of the crowd (in academic skills) aren’t exactly very dark either…”

This person who brings up the bell curve theory for every post needs to get a life. Please keep posting because the more you comment on the bell curve, the more you demonstrate which side and how far out you sit.

By jim d

March 21, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

Janine,

I thought federal laws (NCLB) required each sub group be recorded and reported separately.

By jim d

March 21, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

Just me,

I believe the cultural differences do come into play along with many other mitigating circumstances. They may even be a major factor. As for the genitics point. ???? Not sure if that is a major influence. But hey, it could be.

By jim d

March 21, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this

Tell y’all what.

Someone comes up with the cause and a solution and they’ll be rich beyond their wildest dreams.

By hssubteacher

March 21, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

Jeff: I did not mean to insult you.

I’m not saying its right or wrong. I’m just reporting what I have observed. My own personal interpretation is simply that black students do not have the same trust and respect for white teachers that they have for black teachers. It affects their behavior in the classroom and the quality of the education overall.

Its part of what I said about how they seem to have issues with legitimacy of authority. The students don’t think white women CAN or SHOULD tell them what to do becuase they distrust white authority and probably white institutions in general. (Very likely their parents feel the same way.) So the kids disrepect the teacher by not doing their work and being disruptive and they damage their own education in the process.

Maybe they know they can go home and say the teacher’s a racist and its not their fault they got detention and know their parents will have at least a twinge of worry that its probably true. They can’t do this with a black teacher, so they straighten up and get to work.

All children (all people) defy authority until and unless they determine it is legitimate.

Its not that I think the white teachers are racist. I’m a white teacher and I know I am not. I think its something more complicated than that. And until we figure out what it is, the problem is there. We can’t fix it though because its not okay to talk about it. Everyone does just what you did and starts flinging around the word “racist.” Nobody wants that. So we don’t talk about it.

A large part of being a good student is accepting the legitimacy of the authority of teachers and administrators. The best students after all are often the teacher pleasers.

My observation has been that black students accept the authority of black authority figures in the school where I work (this includes a black administrator) more than they do white authority. I think it affects their behavior and ultimately their education. One day maybe, this won’t be an issue, but I think it is now.

If I were a black parent, I would do what I had to do for my kid right now. If some part of his or her psyche is resisting being educated by white women, I would circumvent the problem and go for a black teacher or maybe even a black school. That won’t fix the problem for others, but it would be fix for my kid.

I agree that it is an insult to white teachers to say it. The implication is that the fault is with the teacher. What I think is that the distrust is culturally imbedded from generations past and as we know with good reason. But it IS destructive to the kids of this generation. I don’t know what the solution is for the longer term. I’m just the observer.

By high school teacher

March 21, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

Jim, you are correct with NCLB reports - if a school has a certain percentage of their population as a minority, then they are considered a cub-group. I don’t know what that percentage is, but for our school the magic number is 40. If we have 40 students of a certain race or sub-group (special ed, free-reduced lunch), then we have to report their scores as a sub-group.

Many schools didn’t make AYP (adequate yearly progress) because of their sub-groups. For example, “High School A” might have a 90% pass rate on the math portion of the graduation test, but if the special education sub-group only scored 65%, then the school won’t make AYP. Conversely, “High School B” has a 75% pass rate in math, and their special ed population isn’t large enough to be counted as a sub-groups, so they make AYP. Gotta love those government regulations.

By jim d

March 21, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

HST,

“Jim, you are correct “

According to some folks on these education blogs—That’d be a first!! WooHoo!

By scott

March 21, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

Although I do not agree with all hssubteacher has to say, there are some valid points. When you think about the majority of elementary school teachers are female. In some school especially K - 3, the majority of those teachers are female and caucasion.
Whether we admit it or not, most teachers have preconceived bias or tend to help students that remind them of themselves. I think this not only may have some effect on authority based on race but also gender. Think about it, the majority of students do not see their first male teacher until middle school and some do not see their first Black male teacher until high school. This has to have some type of effect on the learning experience of a student.

By V for Vendetta

March 21, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

Man I LOVE hot-button topics! Anyway …

There is no magic band-aid we can place over this problem. It was ALWAYS be a problem as long as we live in this state of “PCness”. No one wants to divulge the truth to anyone because the truth will cause conflict and everyone hates a conflict. Especially when the race card gets played. Some observations:

• At one of the “good schools”, the one I teach at, the population has shifted from 95% white to only around 65% white. During this shift, the number of discipline infractions, suspensions, drug arrests, and kids being paneled has risen exponentially. The majority minority kids are all black and hispanic.

• Here in suburbia where there are mostly nice single family homes and no apartments (hence no REAL poverty to speak of), the thug mentality still pervades among the black students. They wear the thug clothes, listen to gangster rap and act in a manner that betrays any shred of upbringing they might have. They are disruptive, loud, and disrespectful. What right do they have to act that way? They do not live in poverty.

• The hispanic kids are worse. They openly flaunt gang symbols and clothing (which is taken up as quickly as we can grab it, only to be replaced the next day), they bring drugs to school, they get knocked up freshmen year by their 19 year old boyfriends, and speak in Spanish during every single class. Including English class.

While there may be genetic differences between the races, no one would every take the time (or risk the political fire-storm) to fully expose it. The main difference lies in the culture and the upbringing many of these students experience. This is obvious because it is not limited only to minority races; hick, white-trash, students are just as capable when it comes to being pathetic.

Until certain minorities learn to celebrate learning, respect, and community involvement, there will always be this achievement gap. I consider myself a very open-minded person, but I demand accountability from my students. You are responsible for YOUR actions, and those actions have consequences. You need to understand how your actions affect the people around you, whether you like to admit to it or not. Some stereotypes are not stereotypes, they are truths that no one wants to admit to. Time to own up.

By Shakingmyhead

March 21, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

I have to butt in here and support some of the not-so-very PC comments. I, too, have observed that the difference in behavior between white students and black students FROM THE SAME NEIGHBORHOODS is very, very different. And, after making more telephone calls and having more parent conferences than I care to count, I think I see some factors that might contribute to the difference. It always seems to go something like this: “Mrs. White, your child is disrupting my class and is, therefore, disrupting his education. Yada, yada, yada.” To which the parent replies, “Mrs. Teacher, I promise, it will not happen again, and if it does, you just call me. Here are ALL the phone numbers where I can be reached.” And then we have, “Mrs. Black, your child is disrupting my class and is, therefore, disrupting his education. Yada, yada, yada.” To which the parent replies, “Mrs. Teacher, how did you get my number? And what do you expect me to do about it? And what did you do to cause the problem? And I have given up on him, so don’t call me any more. After all, he is the one in charge of the house and the other siblings until I come home at midnight. So, if he does not do his homework, that is YOUR problem, not mine.” True story, repeated almost daily. Sad, but true. Also something I did not see until the last 5-7 years.

The biggest problem is that all of these students (those who care and those who do not, regardless of race/ethnicity) are now sitting side by side in the same class being served in the same way so that No Child will be Left Behind. Let’s do something to address the discipline FIRST and then see if the “achievement gap” closes up. I honestly do not think we will ever fix the parental disregard for education in some of the homes we serve. And that, fellow bloggers, is the root of the problem.

By scott

March 21, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this

It has become apparant that several “non-black / hispanic” bloggers have become experts on the ails of society. Please stop referring to non-whites as minorities, whites are the minority in the world population.

By jim d

March 21, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

Scott,

We are also a minority in the GCPS system

By terry

March 21, 2007 2:55 PM | Link to this

I have to agree with some of the comments that have been made, even though some are very sterotypical.But what I have seen the differences in Black & White students are the different and the same.Yes a lot of black students are violent,disruptive,disrespectful etc. But I noticed that a lot of white students suffer from low self esteem,have eating disorders,suicidal,into binge drinking,meth,tobacco,oral sex,satonism,instead of getting pregnant at 16 a lot of them have abortions & are on birth control at a young age,a lot are into gambling and drag racing & majority of teenage dui cases are probaly white teenagers. So I feel that there are a lot of problems today with teenagers of all races!

By JustMe

March 21, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

So many of the posters are dancing around my question…

It sounds like most all think that the classroom environment should be a mirror image of the US society, which is European based (white)? In other words, teachers should not use lingo familiar to students (aka street language) and should only use proper English, etc.

If you agree, then this is very contradictory to current educational theory which suggest to teach in a manner such that the student learns the best. Current education philosophy encourages using strategies like writing rap songs to the content, etc.

By Jeff

March 21, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

JustMe:

“current educational theory” is what is causing TONS of people that would be decent - maybe even AMAZING - teachers to LEAVE education. (Yes, myself included. Matter of fact, I STILL have several systems emailing me, and I’m pretty sure that if I still had the phone number listed on all the apps I put in a few months ago that I would be getting even more!)

By Brooke

March 21, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

For too long, adults in schools have explained away the underperformance of african american and latino students in the same ways as above: they don’t want to learn, their parents don’t care, their parents aren’t there—answers always—and only—about the kids and their parents, never anything about what schools and educators do. Ask students why these gaps exist, and you get very different answers: they get programmed into low level classes, their teachers don’t know their subjects, they receive an endless stream of low-level assignments that do little to aid in their subject mastery or beef up their critical thinking skills. As it turns out, the data bare out what kids say, across the board, low-income and minority students get less of everything that matters—less in the way of qualified teachers, less in the way of a challenging curriculum and less in the way of funding and critical learning resources. Check out www.edtrust.org for more on this. The truth is that, while these gaps lay gaping in so many of our communities and states, there are schools across the country that are changing this pattern and getting all kids to high levels of achievement. Indeed, right in the backyard of this paper is Capitol View Elementary, 100% african American, 70% poor—-and, in 2005, not only did 97% of students meet standard, 58% exceeded them. To learn more about Capitol View and other schools that, daily, are proving that these gaps are not inevitable and that what schools do matters, visit the Achievement Alliance at http://www.achievementalliance.org/files/CapitolView.pdf or achievementalliance.org.

By OldSchool

March 21, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

How about just listing the standards to be addressed in the subject areas and LET US TEACH. I can remember when we were given the QCCx and told we needed to cover them in our instruction. It was more like a list of skills to be taught/learned but how we presented them was up to us. I can remember some lessons that were best presented slowly and carefully with lots of practice. Then there were the “teachable moments” that engaged nearly every child and had me hopping to keep up. Teaching used to be magic because the more students learned, the more they wanted to know.

Now they don’t seem to want to remember the most mundane skill and certainly have no desire to build upon it or use it creatively.

I asked one of my classes what goal they had for themselves after graduation. “Go to college” was the overwhelming answer. That’s not a goal. Some who mouth they want to be architects have no clue just what is involved in that career and are not taking the very courses that might help them prepare themselves…trig and calc, physics, art for heaven’s sake! They are sliding through school and think that someone will look after them like we’ve been forced to do in high school (no bruised self-esteems here!)

A determined student can learn in the worst school from the worst teacher. It takes drive and perserverance and it can be done. And it makes no difference what color you are or who your parents were or where you grew up. I’ve seen kids who had everything they could ever want or need flounder and fail and I’ve been honored to witness thrown-away kids succeed. If I’ve had some part in that success, I’ve earned my pay many times over.

By a worried mom

March 21, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

Brooke

I agree with some of what you write, well most of it. But sometimes I feel like our community gets what it deserves — for example in DeKalb, we continously elect incompetent, inefficient and ineffective board members who are stuck in the past (Hey, wake up, there are no white children left in DeKalb) and who really have low expectations. We have a superintendent whose main priority seems to be letting families choose their school —rather than addressing the underlying problems.

It took the business community getting involved in the City of Atlanta to start making some changes. In DeKalb and Clayton, does anyone care?

Also, why is it so rare to see a black parent addressing the DeKalb school board? Why is that Black folks seem to have a harder time holding elected officials and bureacrats accountable?

By jim d

March 21, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

Dear worried mom,

“why is it so rare to see a black parent addressing the DeKalb school board? Why is that Black folks seem to have a harder time holding elected officials and bureacrats accountable?”

I’ll take those two on.

Have you ever stood before a local BOE and expierenced the pure unadulterated distain they have for parents? After all these folks are the pro’s —right?

Well no they aren’t most of them are using the position as a stepping stone in a quasi political career or are just too damn lazy or stupid to hold a real job. BUT being the politicans they are they have convinced a majority, of the what 15-22% of voters that bother to show up at the polls on election day, that they are the best suited candidate for the job. And the damn fool public keeps electing them, So why on heavens earth would they feel obligated to actually do anything for their constituents?

We will have the same ol- same ol until the public demands mo-better representation.

How’s that? answer your questions?

By jim d

March 21, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

Part of the problem in Gwinnett is that we have have become a majority/minority school system (finish reading before you go off on me)yet the BOE is 100% lilly white and our bigoted super only hires token blacks in a few key positions so as to stay out of trouble with the feds.

Think he’d fire one for even the most serious offense? It ain’t likely!!

By iron maiden

March 21, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

Brooke, I’m wondering about your hands-on classroom experience. Over the last few years, probably 70%-80% of the black students I’ve had in class, in a high-priority high school, couldn’t care less about subject mastery or critical thinking skills! Last year I had to change schools and systems. Needed some tranquility to keep my brain from exploding. The raucous, party attitude of many students was a mental, physical and emotional assault. And IF, as you maintain, black students get less of everything, it could also be that they burn teachers out. Those of us who are seriously trying to provide an education would like a chance to teach to those who want to learn.

By Janine

March 21, 2007 5:36 PM | Link to this

RE:Brooke’s assertion that ” low-income and minority students get less of everything that matters,less in the way of qualified teachers,”. Do any of you remember the lottery held in Dekalb in the 80’s? All teachers in the north end of Dekalb deemed experienced [there was a number of years teaching requirement] and qualified had there names put in a lottery and those whose names were drawn were transferred to South Dekalb in order to equalize.

By Janine

March 21, 2007 5:44 PM | Link to this

that would be THEIR names…for the spelling/usage police!

By HS Teacher Too

March 21, 2007 5:56 PM | Link to this

Just Me —

I’ll try to answer your question. Jeff is right about “current educational theory” driving some teachers out, but I’d venture a guess that more teachers stay than leave.

However, we are presently in a world of “self esteem above all,” and at some point, yes, kids need to learn proper English (and I’m talking about ALL kids here; I correct as much grammar with white kids as with black or hispanic …and I teach math!) They need to learn that sometimes, things aren’t fun, but are necessary, and dare I say it, sometimes try, try again is the way to go.

I am all for making class engaging and building a rapport with students, and I am not, by any means, saying that we need rote, boring, lecture-based classes. I agree with the broad, glossy theory that we can meet kids where they are; but the idea is that they have to be LEARNING and we have to be TEACHING — it can’t just be an extension of the video game, MTV world in which they live the rest of their days.

I’m sure you’ve seen the countless news reports in recent years that employers are struggling with this new generation of kids who don’t know how to think for themselves, can’t handle negatives — even constructive criticism — and have no sense of workplace decorum.

The idea of teaching kids the way they learn, like everything else, has a good application and an extreme that defeats the purpose. Nothing wrong with writing a rap that will engage the kids, but there needs to be an understanding that slang is, in fact, slang. Kids today can’t distinguish or appreciate the diffference, and THAT is the problem. Heck, if I had a nickel for every time a student wrote something for me with “IM-Speak” I would be retired!!

By Ernest

March 21, 2007 6:07 PM | Link to this

Interesting blog comments again. For a variety of reasons many of us have a difficulty in talking about race, partially for fear of painting a ‘broad brush’ and mostly for fear of being misinterpreted. That said, once I look past some of the generalizations, I took great interest in hssubteacher comments earlier today. I think the socioeconomic status of the students family along with their parents education level also play a part of the childs behavior. I might even go a step further and suggest some behaviors could be ‘generational’ i.e based on the grandparents education level and/or how long they have been in this county. While this is not the ‘silver bullet’, I believe it plays a part in the childs development and behavior towards education.

Worried Mom, when you said, Also, why is it so rare to see a black parent addressing the DeKalb school board?, I almost fell out my chair. Obviously you have not been to many school board meetings as I see many black parents addressing the board regarding concerns with instruction and discipline. I feel qualified to speak on this since I’ve attended most board meetings over the past 3-4 years. There is a group that has spoken for the past year advocating for a School of the Arts for both elementary and high school students.

By Janine

March 21, 2007 6:33 PM | Link to this

HS Teacher Too…RE: “and I am not, by any means, saying that we need rote, boring, lecture-based classes. I agree with the broad, glossy theory that we can meet kids where they are”…I wonder sometimes if we are abolutely NOT helping students succeed in college by avoiding the boring lectures and not trying to ease them into the fact that college classes are not going to be “stimulating” all the time..maybe not even most of the time..Often things that we have to do, have to learn, just aren’t exciting and ..what’s that term/…”hands on”…Work is Work….it takes discipline and self control.

By Janine

March 21, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

A wise old Algebra teacher said to me a few years ago….” THese students keep wanting and waiting for the ‘bells and whistles’ that are going to help them learn Algebra…when there are NO BELLS AND WHISTLES! THis is not a video game. It’s work !!!!

By lynn d

March 21, 2007 7:02 PM | Link to this

Its the block schedule, stupid. The fall EOCT was only given to students who had completed the course in the Fall — only those on the block. Minority students, many of whom are at risk, suffer the most from educational trends and fads. BLOCK takes hours away from instruction and is only effective with experienced and capable teachers. Many schools, that are largely minority, have the least experienced teachers around. BLOCK is bad.

By KA

March 22, 2007 8:23 AM | Link to this

Ernest, I will agree with you that behaviors are generational and add this; for those kids who have no guidance or structure at home to form their values and sense of identity and responsibility, their peer group at school or in the neighborhood becomes the model for them. Remove the kids from their toxic peer groups, place them into structured and disciplined environments, and oila you can transform the loser kids into decent students and responsible people. IMO black, hispanic, or poor white trash, these kids aren’t genetically stupid, they are just lacking in core values. Why is the military so good for maturing the wild kids? It’s the discipline and the structure. Why are Catholic schools so successful at educating kids? It’s the discipline and structure. Maybe if we repeat it enough the school admins will get a tiny clue and put discipline and structure back into the schools, let the teachers control their classrooms, and exclude the bad actors until they can behave. And while I am on my soapbox, let’s challenge the smart kids and stop grouping all learning levels together. Let those that earn their grades move ahead and tell the slackers and bad actors that when they must earn their way back in.

By high school teacher

March 22, 2007 8:48 AM | Link to this

My kids are watching a movie this morning…

I do have a question. If poor reading skills are to blame for the results on the tests, then why are the Language Arts tests usually the highest scores? I have administered 9th grade and American Lit EOCT’s, as well as the greduation test, and the bulk of the language arts tests are reading passages with questions that must be answered i.e. the main idea, the tone the author used, what generalizations can be derived from the passage… so if reading is to blame, why the higher scores on the reading test?

BTW, you can go to the Department of Education website to see sample EOCT’s.

By JustMe

March 22, 2007 8:52 AM | Link to this

lynn d-

You are wrong when you say that block scheduling takes hours away from instruction. The clock hours are the same (amount of time the student is in the classroom). It is up to the teacher to ensure that the instruction hours remain the same as well!

By KA

March 22, 2007 8:59 AM | Link to this

high school teacher, what level do you teach? How many of your students are failing or perfoming poorly on the language arts tests? Do you have misbehaving students, and if so how do they do on the tests? Maybe you just have good students!

By Zoe

March 22, 2007 9:11 AM | Link to this

What systems actually HAVE block schedule? I do not think there are that many in the state. I know in our system, except for Economics, all tests given were given to students in the remediation program. The system is about 90% minority.

By high school teacher

March 22, 2007 9:12 AM | Link to this

Actually, you do lose instructional time on the block - 900 minutes of instruction to be exact: 180 days of a class at 50 minutes a day is 9,000 minutes per year; 90 days of instruction (one semester)at 90 minutes a day is 8,100 minutes.

HOWEVER, I miss teaching on the block schedule. I taught on the block for ten years. When I transferred to another county last year and went back to the 6 period day, I felt like I was running a race; I still do! I am a better teacher on the block.

As for the benefits to the kids…well maybe we can compare EOCT’s in the spring: block EOCT scores vs traditional schedule EOCT scores.

By high school teacher

March 22, 2007 9:21 AM | Link to this

Last year I taught 9th grade and 10th grade - we do American Lit in the 10th grade. We only have two levels of classes: college prep and honors (that’s right, there is no “lower level” for the castigation of the minority students They actually receive the same education as the white students). I teach them all! This year I’m just teaching 9th grade, both college prep and honors.

By WFC

March 22, 2007 9:29 AM | Link to this

I’m retired after teaching for thirty years in four public schools and two private schools. There is no “magic bullet” for improving instruction but I noticed one profound difference between public and private schools that I believe is worth noting. In both private schools I worked in, the administrators were capable of, and often did, actually teach academic classes! In the public schools I worked in, the administrators (both building level and “downtown” were seldom drawn from the ranks of teachers of core subjects (math, science, language arts, social science) and usually had moved out of the ranks of teaching as soon as possible. I was an administrator at a “good North Fulton school” for four years (after sixteen years as a history teacher) and was absolutely amazed at how little time our administrative team spent working on how to improve our academic program. Am I on to something? Our principal might have well have been managing a K-Mart for all he knew about learning and instruction!

By high school teacher

March 22, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this

I forgot to answer the other questions, KA. In my honors classes, all my students passed the EOCT (as well they should). In my other classes, out of 38 students, 7 failed the EOCT. Three of them failed with a 69. Two others were ESL students (English as a second language). Of the 31 who passed, 26 were white, 2 were black, and 4 were hispanic. Of the 7 who failed, 3 were white, 1 was german, 1 was hispanic, and 2 were black.

By KA

March 22, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

hs teaher, I think you are just a good teacher, so the students work for you and do well.

By KA

March 22, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

Bridget, the link to the comments for th new Math topic is broken.

By jim d

March 22, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this

Well folks, here’s a sumary of what we’ve iodentied as the causes for the disparity between ethnic groups.

Can we now tackle solutions?

1 ) some of the students value an education and some don’t

2) black kids don’t give a crap

3) they just want to talk/ fight/ generally disrupt the class and not do anything.

3) it’s mostly about reading comprehension.

3) racial (cultural) differences.

3) their lack of academic diligence.

3) no one at home to tell you to give a crap.

3) They will shout across the room to their friends, and even get out of their seat for no apparent reason other than to attack another student.

3) there is a difference in their communication and writing skills.

3) the teacher’s fault.

11) behavioral issues.

12) attendance, diligence and attitude

13) parents

14) college isn’t for everyone

15) the system

16) Georgia’s EOCTs

17) Educrats

18) runaway federal courts

18) Low IQ’s

20) Winter tests

18) discrimination

21) disruptive and inattentive

18) loud, defiant, and angry

22) a pervasive group think

18) angry black parents

23) school facilities, poverty rates, number of faculty with more than 5 years of experiences,

24) genetic differences

25) cultural differences

26) racism

27) federal laws

28) lack of trust and respect

29) lack of black teachers

30) school teachers are female

31) thug clothes,

32) gangster rap

33) drugs

34) knocked up freshmen

35) lack of community involvement

36) served in the same way

37) violent,disruptive,disrespectful

38) current educational theory

39) they get programmed into low level classes,

40) their teachers don’t know their subjects,

41) they receive an endless stream of low-level assignments

42) the standards

42) no goals

43) low self esteem

44) no determination

45) lack of business community involvement

46) School board

47) elected officials and bureacrats

48) bigoted super

48) they don’t care about subject mastery or critical thinking skills!

49) too much self esteem

50) poor grammar

51) video game

52) M tv

53) don’t know how to think for themselves,

54) can’t handle negatives

55) can’t handle constructive criticism

56) have no sense of workplace decorum.

57) slang

58) IM-Speak

59) socioeconomic status of the students family

60) parents education

61) grandparents education

62) NO BELLS AND WHISTLES!

63) BLOCK schedule

64) no guidance or structure at home

64) No values and sense of identity and responsibility,

65) their peer group at school or in the neighborhood

66) loser kids

67) principal

By jim d

March 22, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

I’m beginning to wonder if the folks that advocate scrapping our current educational system and starting over may be correct.

By luvs2teach

March 22, 2007 10:20 AM | Link to this

yeah, jim, I think that about sums it up.

By SET

March 22, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

scott :

I’m glad you noticed my earlier post. If you think the point I made is grating - it’s supposed to be. In addition to reading the stats nationally and for CA about the death spiral performance of blacks I get to see things up close in the criminal courts for 25 years now.

I believe that things were getting better in the very early 1960s for everyone in the US, including the black population. Despite the IQ distribution difference which is at the core of the Achievement Gap. The the government came up with the Great Society programs and effectively rolled back any progress. The rest is history.

I’m tired of the liberal whining about the Achievement Gap which pretends that the IQ studies don’t exist. I’m annoyed at the popular claim that the black students aren’t living up to potential and if we just spend 10 times the money on them they will change.

It’s clear what has to be done to stabilize the urban public schools and to return progress and the Educrats fully intend to continue on the path that leads to prison and death for the majority of black males and welfare for the women and children. I believe this is artificial - in a free market once the kill off finished the survivors would assimilate as they did prior to the Great Society.

By importing 3rd worlders to take all the service jobs and refusing to train our own proletariat we are killing off our own people. And I do mean Kill… take a look at the trends in mortality tables for blacks - especially the AIDS numbers in the urban areas. An epidemis that is very selective and could be halted just as the Syphillis Epidemic was halted (without antibiotics) in the 1920 ‘s.

So when the school blog covers the Achievement Gap I make my point. I hope it jarrs a lot of people. It is supposed to. What is happening is not an accident - it’s artificial and it’s predictable. Congress (both parties) has decided to replace large sections of the American People with new People more to their liking and easier to control. Part of this plan is the dumbing down of the proletariat by the destruction of the US Public School system.

Damage this systematic over such a period of time is not an accident.

By JustMe

March 22, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

jim d-

Why did you post such a ridiculous post listing 67 items? Especially when your ‘list’ should have combined items. For example, quite a few of them boil down to student behaivor issues. Here is a better list, IMHO….

1) Culture differences that have different values in our society. These differences in culture also include the expected rate of maturity to adulthood.

2) Behavior issues. Students not behaving in school, as expected. This may be partically due to item 1).

3) Value in formal education for their future. This may also be partially due to item 1).

4) Lack of mentor for student. The student has no proper role model or no one to encourage them to succeed. This would include poor parenting, grandparenting, etc. There is no one to teach the children morals, values, manners, etc. This also includes lack of community support.

5) Interference inside the classroom from those outside of education (from educrates, or politicans, or whatever you want to call them). Teachers are not allowed to teach content for their students the best way they see fit. This includes crazy standards set by politicans, time away from learning forced by administrators, and so on.

6) Unqualified teachers and poor administrators. Yes, there are some ‘bad’ teachers that cannot teach content or manage the classroom. Yes, there are some ‘bad’ administrators that do not support the education process or the teachers.

7) Our overall societial direction. This includes more openness about sex, more violence on TV, movies, etc.

8) ‘Hangers-on’ from the old ideas about educational tracking, racism, and so on.

I think that these 8 things cover most, if not all, of your 67+ items.

By jim d

March 22, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

Just me,

Wasn’t yesterday pleasant? I don’t think we ever disagreed. As for my ridiculous post of today? Well, my friend, I cut and pasted right off of yesterdays blog so if my post of today is ridiculous, what would that say about all of the posts from yesterday?

By HS Teacher Too

March 22, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

Janine,

You’re exactly right and I should have been more specific — I didn’t mean to say NO lectures, rote teaching, etc. I meant to say we don’t need an exclusive return to such methods — but I agree with you 100% that students need to know how to learn with those methods as well because college ain’t all group work and warm fuzzies!

By Teacher, Too

March 22, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

I am going to print the blog and give it to my students as a responsive/reflective piece of writing. I’m interested to see what their reactions are. I teach 8th grade gifted students inclusive of many races in a predominatly black school which has most, if not all, of the problems that have been listed.

By JustMe

March 22, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this

Jim d-

You miss what I said…. Your post was ridulous because you DID simply cut and paste, thus duplicating the same thing over and over again!

By jim d

March 22, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

Teach too,

No need, they will conclude we are mostly nuts without a clue. They are sure to be convinced that we were all born “old” and have never been where they are now. Oh yeah, and that we don’t heed our spelling and grammer here on the blog. :-)

Just me,

Not to be argumentative but there really was a method to my madness. I did not want anyone thinking I’d imposed my interpetation of what they’d written. I cut and pasted for that reason alone.

By SET

March 22, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

Just Me: I believe that the public school kids are behaving as they believe they are supposed to.

Notice how they ostracize and punish anyone who behaves differently.

They keep it “real” or whatever. This is the environment the schools create and maintain. If anyone in authority wanted it to be different, it would be.

I went to integrated schools - largely integrated by ability. The students didn’t run the school. The faculty and administration ran the school and they expelled anyone who thought differently. This was true of my Catholic 1-8 and my public 9-12 schools. We were told how to dress, how to act, and when to speak. There was no bullying to speak of although people were allowed to associate with who they wanted to. Class seats were assigned and changed at the teacher’s whim.

Anyone who openly defied authority dissapeared so fast they didn’t get to say goodby. And that was at the Public High School. My older relatives claimed that my conditions were liberal compared to the ones they were under. That’s how CA schools got through the 50’s and 60’s I suppose. They weren’t in the business of producing welfare mothers and prison inmates then.

And I don’t buy the argument that our problems are mainly because of single mothers. In WWII and the later years people were moving all over the country and families were broken up. Everybody worked, especially the single mothers. The schools then held up their end of the bargain by imposing jack booted discipline on the students, while everybody worked. The racial gap (and their was one) was dealt with as required and everyone was kept busy and out of self-pity.

We’ve lost our way. We can get back on track. Or maybe the upcoming wars will help…

By JustMe

March 22, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this

SET -

Not sure that I agree with you on your last post…..

All schools have established rules of conduct for students. All students are expected to behave according to those rules. If a student does break a rule, there are established consequences.

So you see, there are expectations of student behavior that is communicated along with established consequences if they do not.

What breaks down is when the consequences are not enforced. They may not be enforced for a variety of reasons. For example, maybe there is a lazy or ‘bad’ administrator that just doesn’t want to deal with it. Or, maybe there are letigeous parents that will sue of the consequences are enforced, thus the administrator backs down.

And, when consequences are not enforced, then the teachers are ‘deflated’ to enforce the rules and then the students quickly realize that there are no rules in reality.

You said that at your public high school, bad students quickly ‘disappeared.’ Well, my friend, things have indeed changed. Bad students last for years and years (interfereing with learning) while they continue to do infraction after infraction. The law states that there has to be a lengthy established record of infractions before any real consequences can be had.

By V for Vendetta

March 22, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

SET,

You’re exactly right. Our “rules” we have now are empty and without reinforcement. The students can NOT be held accountable for their actions. As a result, anarchy ensues. In your opinion (as someone familiar with the law), how do we change this? I have often suggested consulting one of our lawyers for suggestions to make our rules tougher. I’m usually dismissed.

One of our biggest problems deals with cell phone usage on campus. They are not supposed to use cell phones while at school, but if we take them up they are eventually returned to the students by the administration within a few days (after parent begging). I wonder why if it is an EXPLICITLY stated rule (one that every kid signs at the beginning of the year when he receives his rule packet), then why can’t we keep the phone FOREVER? I’m told this is because of “legal issues”, but I don’t buy that crap for a second.

By high school teacher

March 22, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

Adding on the comments…

the “bad” kids get sent to alternative school, but their EOCT and graduation test scores are recorded with their home school. That’s right! A school is accountable for a student’s test scores even when he has been removed from that school to alternative school! If you send too many kids to alternative school, you won’t make AYP.

By catlady

March 22, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

I think one problem is the stupidity of block scheduling. It is, IMHO, not developmentally appropriate for many high school kids (yes, they are still developing). Another problem seems to be to be lack of articulation between courses, perhaps especially bad in a large highschool with many math (etc) teachers. The courses don’t mesh well.

On the discussion of how race plays in, I think it is more SES than race, but in the US race and SES are frequently highly correlated. some of our poor, rural white children show some of the characteristics listed here as “black”.

By jim d

March 22, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

The point of MTV was brushed over yestarday, but reflecting on that earlier comment has brought me to the conclusion there may be more to it than what I’d origionally thought.

In my day (I’m going to age myself here)we had the likes of Gene Autry, Roy Rogers, and the Lone Ranger. All positive roll models. What have kids got today on MTV? Although “entertaining” in some respects, it’s still a slap in the face to the ethnic pride that the blacks I know are trying to instill in their children.

What we must consider here is that we have to think beyond our own communities in terms of how we are perceived. This really hits home whenever we turn on MTV where, as we all know, Black men are generally portrayed as “gangstas,” disrespectful to their women, with caps turned to the side, their britches down around their knees and underwear up to their arm pits. We must realize that billions of people around the world are getting their only impressions of Black Americans through what they see by satellite and, unfortunately, through MTV, and even more unfortunately this is what are youth are looking up to. It’s little wonder that it carries over into other aspects of our society such as our schools.

By Ernest

March 22, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this

JimD:

Who is Gene Autry??? :)

By jim d

March 22, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

Ernest,

You crack me up. :-)

I warned you I was aging myself.

He was just an old telegraph operator.

http://www.nashvillesongwritersfoundation.com/fame/autry.html

By OldSchool

March 22, 2007 5:07 PM | Link to this

For what it’s worth, we are on block (and have been for about 10 years). We are also taking a very close look at block at the request of the BOE and as a continuing part of our school improvement plan. Forgive me for not having the source (I’m home now) but a colleague shared with our group that the research shows very little difference in achievement on standardized tests or other areas between the traditional 6 period day and block scheduling.

I still believe it boils down to how motivated the learner is, how capable the teacher is, how willing to let the teachers teach the administration is, and how honestly tuned into their students the parents are.

Over my 33 years, I’ve come to think that the powers that be have done more to harm education than fix it…

…or they’ve just “fixed” it to death.

I know my subject. I know how to present it and adapt it to my audience. Give me the QCCs or GPSs, let me work them into my instruction, and I’ll produce. Just don’t force me into a teaching style that isn’t my own…LET ME TEACH!

By Lisa B.

March 22, 2007 6:30 PM | Link to this

I’ve not been able to read the blog the last few days. I’ve read some great comments, and hate that I missed this topic!

My top student this year is a black boy. In fact, the last two years, my top fourth-grade students have been black, though my school system is 60 percent white. We have zero ESOL students. In the rural community where I teach, most of the children are poor. Household income, and education and marital status of the parents seem to have a far greater impact on academic achievement than race. This year’s class superstar lives with his biological parents, and both have some post-secondary education. Dad works at a Fortune 100 plant while mom is a nurse. The boy’s family travels, so he’s had a lot more exposure than most of my students. His parents have very high expectations for his behavior and performance.

I agree with previous posts that socio-economics has a greater impact on academic success than race.

By Lee

March 23, 2007 8:32 AM | Link to this

Ah yes, that pesky “achievement gap.” 50+ years ago, that same achievement gap was used as the cornerstone argument in Brown vs. Board and the resulting push to integrate schools.

If we just place the black students in the same classroom as the white students, give them the same access to the better teachers, textbooks, etc, they will magically transform into scholars.

We now see that same flawed logic used to place special ed students into a regular classroom.

The politically correct crowd totally ignores IQ studies and then wonder why the different groups do not have “equal outcomes.”

Yes Lisa B, in the microcosm of a classroom, you can very well a black child exceeding the performance of his peers. And if you were to test this child, you probably would find his IQ to be a couple of standard deviations to the right of the median for his group.

If you use a large enough population for a statistically valid sample, the black/white achievement gap correlates to the black/white IQ normal distribution.

For educators, this means they need to get past the politically correct phobia many exhibit and track students by their ability. AP, college prep, honors, and gifted classes are an attempt to do this. However, it hasn’t been that long ago where I read they were trying to change the criteria to get into the Gifted programs because minorities were underrepresented.

We keep fighting the same battles and keep coming up with the same results. Which, according to one analogy, is the definition of insanity.

By SET

March 23, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

Lisa B: Sorry, Lisa. Anedoctal experiences mean nothing when compared to large datasets. You’re deluding yourself.

Of course somebody can find an exception to the norm, One black child of 6 is equal or higher than the average white IQ. Yes, you might have a black student at the top of your integrated class in math, science or time pressure testing reading. It’s just not likely. And if you throw in a handfull of Jewish and Asian students it’s really not likely. Even more interesting is that when you do have standout black students they are just as likely to be either African immigrants or hybird black/jewish mix, etc.

On that last point just start profiling blacks nationally who are grad students in lab sciences or any quality academic field. Black Studies and social sciences is where the Colleges get the AA Negroes most of the time. Sad but true.

The US Military gets around these problems by forbidding the enlistment of blacks on the left side of the curve so that the Military Black Avg IQ is 103 - which means they fit in alonside of the enlisted white IQ and the mismatch problems are radically reduced.

Anyway, IQ isn’t everything by a long shot and there are important places in society for nearly everyone if we’d quit undercutting the left side of the Bell curve by eliminating their jobs and refusing to train them for anything but being prison inmates and welfare mothers. It also doesn’t help to promote diseugenics - making sure the dumbest reproduce 6 kids for every 2 produced by the smartest of every race.

This is our achievement gap. We are making it larger and stronger. And life is one big IQ test. Without rigourous coping skills from a decent education the left side of the bell curve are more hopeless than Stalin’s victims.

We are planning a totalitarian state with a hereditary ruling class who only marry and associate with each other. This was predicted in writing over a decade ago by Murray and Jensen and their book was suppressed because nobody wanted to discuss black IQ.

Well black IQ isn’t the point. Half of whites are below IQ 100. More than half of Hispanics are below 100. A whole lot of Americans are being consigned to degregation because Congress has decided to do so - with unconstitutional takeover and sellout of the nations’ public schools as well as a ruinous economic policy and an open borders scheme to flood the nation with 3rd worlders who won’t complain about the defacto suspension of the constitution (what constitution??).

Mr. Liberty has one thing very correct. The public schools can’t be fixed because they are not intended to be fixed. The answers to our problems lie elsewhere - a national policy debate or new leadership.

By Lisa B.

March 23, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

SET,

I agree with your comments. I just get tired of generalizations people often make which imply black boys cannot be as successful as white boys. I see far too many black boys routed into special Ed, Early Intervention Programs (or other remedial classes) alternative school, and finally YDC, jail or prison. What a waste.

The gap does not seem to be as large between black and white girls.

By SET

March 23, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this

I believe that regardless of any gap there are some tactical advantages each group has that can be developed. i don’t think we are developing anything with the current public school regimes.

I don’t remember so many problems when schools were largely segregated and iron fisted white and black faculty and staff turned out black students - and students of all races - ready to go to work.

My Grandparents’ generation taught and ran some of these schools. They had no intention of turning out prison inmates and single monthers. They worked those kids so hard they were glad to go home and sleep. And yes, they “forced” the students to use “sir” and “ma’am” - among a lot of other behavioral training. No apologies.

They also spotted the bright kids and handed them off to a series of teachers and schools until the brights became the Doctors and Lawyers of their community. Nowadays it seems that the children of the Drs and Lawyers are the ones that get pushed through. Back in the first half of the 20th century this wasn’t the case.

The discipline and training the black students got in those days kept them alive and out of trouble long enough for them to grow up and take advantage of whatever opportunities came along later. Not so now.

And while many of these people might have had IQ’s below 100 they became the Mailmen, Shoe Repair Men, Service Workers, Meter Maids, Bus Drivers, and untold numbers of service people who raised families and were part of society. And they wanted more for their children, and at least some of them would rise higher.

Not so anymore in California. Some liberal judges and legislators decided we had to stop enforcing discipline in public schools and mainstream everyone together. Performance went to hell and the faculty could no longer cattle prod anyone to perform. Then we paid children to have children and stopped benefits if the women married, and imported new service workers…old story now.