Get Schooled

By JustMe

March 20, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this

This is simple jargon from lawyers to confuse the issue for their clients. It is something that should be very clear.

No tax dollars for private schools, period. Lottery money is not tax money. There is no debate, no confusion, no gray area here. Idiots want to blur the line in order to achieve their goal(s).

I am an adult without any children. If we are going to re-do this thing, then I want to stop paying any taxes to educate anyone else’s kids!!!!

By jim d

March 20, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

In my opinon, (not that it matters)Public money controlled by government is no different than taxes collected and spent by government. The key here is actually that Government does control the funds so even if it were private monies being controlled by Government we would have a conflict and an issue of separation if these funds trickled down to any religious organizations that provide for education.

Personally, I’d have no problem with vouchers going to either non-profit or for profit educational institutions provided the wall of separation is maintained. If that wall were to be breached, I would take issue.

By KA

March 20, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this

I say YES to more choices, more methods, and more funding sources. Most of us are taxpayers, so there is nothing wrong if anyone of us want to have a choice of how our tax dollars are spent for schools for our kids.

JustMe, we’ve talked about this before, but ALL of us pay for many things that some of us NEVER use, like many roads and highways, hospitals, fire or police departments, jails, prisons, libraries, etc. If we had a pay as you use system, then nothing would ever get built or accomplished. I am for more local and state control, and much less federal control. The farther away the decision maker, the less control one has over the fate of his/her tax dollars.

By wwww

March 20, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

KA:

True, we do pay for things we don’t all use all the time, but we do use almost all of them indirectly in some form or another. HOWEVER, if you don’t have children and never intend to, paying for someone else’s children to attend private school seems downright silly to me.

I also agree education funds are often spent with little thought as to how it will help the education of students.

By JustMe

March 20, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

KA -

You talk out of both sides of your @#$!

Tax dollars are forced collections from me. And, I can vote to elect representation to spend my money how I believe for the benefit of our society. However, it is WRONG for you to take my money and spend it how YOU, as an individual, want (ie - private school). In my book, that is stealing! Spend your own money how you want, not mine!

Lottery money is not forced collections. If some choses to donate to that “pot” of money, that is their choice and evidently, they may not care how it is spent or who makes the decisions on how it is spent.

By KA

March 20, 2007 10:44 AM | Link to this

wwww, You do benefit directly when the well educated children of today get good jobs, and pay taxes, that will be paid to you in your elder years as SS and medicare benefits.

By JustMe

March 20, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

KA -

If you really do believe what you posted at 10:44, then you would work to improve public education! However, I do not believe that this is your true goal nor true belief….

By jim d

March 20, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

wwww,

Where’d we be without the Bill Gates, the Eli Whitney’s,the Wright Brothers, and the George Eastmans of the world? We all use their education.

By JustMe

March 20, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

It is WRONG for you to take my money and spend it how YOU, as an individual, want (ie - private school). In my book, that is the definition of stealing! Spend your own money how you want, not mine!

jim d-

And those people you mentioned attended public school. Case closed.

By SET

March 20, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

If there’s one thing I’ve learned it’s that the government is evil. Sorry ‘bout that folks, but it’s true. It will take a long time for others to get the message - and I’m not saying that it’s personal or anything, it’s just the nature of large government. George Orwell had a point.

Right now the government does not have it’s tentacles in the private schools so they are a breeding ground for dissent and political incorrectness.

The government will be increasingly determined to bring the private schools under it’s control. They will do it like Greeks bearing gifts.

If you let the Federal/State government directly feed $$ to private schools you will be throwing away the last independence you have for the upbringing of the children of your state. And it will feel real good for awhile.

I might consider tax credits for educational expenses of the children of taxpayers. I will never agree with any voucher system.

By jim d

March 20, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

Ok,

Someone please explain why private school education is better or worse than a public school education when one or the other private schools may do a better job for an individual student. Assuming costs are comparable.

What difference does it make if it is government controled or not?

By JustMe

March 20, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

SET -

I disagree with tax credits for tax payers of children in school. Again, by definition, that means that those people can spend that money how they see fit - and it may have nothing to do with education or their children! That boils down to stealing from me to give to someone else.

If you don’t like public education for whatever reason, work to improve it! Keep private education separate from public education and certainly keep it away from the government.

By jim d

March 20, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

Set,

We agree on the evils of government. But I fear we differ on the future of private education. There will be plenty of private institutions to provide for anyone that doesn’t want their children indoctrinated in the standard Governement line. Much like we have private schools of secondary education today.

By jim d

March 20, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this

oops, that didn’t come out right—let’s try again.

Ok,

Someone please explain why private school education is better or worse than a public school education when one or the other may do a better job for an individual student. Assuming costs are comparable.

What difference does it make if it is government controled or not

By JustMe

March 20, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

jim d-

I will venture to answer you question. Private schools may be considered “better” simply because they provide a place to segregate. This segregation could be by ethnicity, by socio-economic group, or by other.

In the field of education, it is commonly known that private school teachers really cannot “teach better” than public school teachers. Therefore, the education provided really is not different. In fact, many private school teachers are not even certified teachers (mostly because they could not pass the required exam to become certified).

However, private schools can operate outside of the rules and regulations of the government (they don’t have to have certified teachers, for example). This means, for example, they can do things like ‘kick-out’ students that are trouble-makers whereas public schools cannot really do this.

The government and our society has a goal (for good or bad) to provide a certain level of education to all of its citizens. This is the primary goal of public education.

Has my response helped?

By jim d

March 20, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

Why is it?

That often those that cry the loudest about parental responsibility are so often the same ones that object to placing that responsibility back on the parents?

Vouchers or tax credits do exactly that.

Is it that they want parents responsible for educating their children or that they want them held accountable for a government education that they have little or no say over?

By HS Teacher Too

March 20, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

JustMe —

I am in class and not paying attention. So, I am playing on the Internet… and at least one of those folks jim d mentioned (Bill Gates) did, in fact attend private school. That’s according to the Microsoft bio on him.

jim d — I think the government control really only plays a role in mandated curriculum, testing, etc. Is that a short-sighted view? It seems to be that arguments for indoctrination can be made for both sides, and at that point it is just a matter of what indoctrination the parents find agreeable.

Not that it matters. Just being silly today.

By HS Teacher Too

March 20, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

Oooh, JustMe, I take issue with the last part of your statement “In fact, many private school teachers are not even certified teachers (mostly because they could not pass the required exam to become certified).”

Any factual basis to back this up?

In my experiences — which I admit is just anecdotal evidence — many of the teachers at private schools aren’t certified because they came from different experiences (for example, biologists now teaching biology; writers teaching composition) and because the schools themselves don’t value or require the certification process. HARDLY because they couldn’t pass the tests … but the quality of those tests is a topic for another day.

(I won’t get too fired up right now, I sat for the Praxis math exam with a guy who was literally taking it for the 8th time. ?!?! And if he passed, presumably he would be HIRED to TEACH?!?!?!!!)

By JustMe

March 20, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

jim d-

Once again as you so often seem to do on these blogs, you combine and confuse two separate issues in order to justify your stance….

I will scream the loudest against school vouchers because as I have already stated and explained, it is paramount to stealing from me in order to spend my money as you see fit.

I also scream loud for parents to parent and take responsibility - which means to raise their children with societies expectations of morals, values, manners, etc. Parents should also raise their children with goals, dreams, aspirations, good work ethics, etc.

These are two very separate ideas.

By JustMe

March 20, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this

HS Teacher Too -

Please do not put words in my mouth. I did not say that all private schools teachers failed the certification test.

The statement that I did make was based on knowing some education undergraduate majors that could not pass the PRAXIS in their field, could not get certification, and ended up teaching in private schools. Also, the only certified teachers that I know that teach in private schools are those that are retired from teaching in public schools.

The point that I was trying to make is that currently, private schools do not have to operate within the same parameters as public schools (hiring certified teachers). And, that it is a myth that a private education is “better” than a public education.

By OldSchool

March 20, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

It is my opinion that students who succeed have parents with high expectations or are students with self-motivation OR both. My daughters grew up knowing we expected their best efforts. When they started an activity or project, they saw it through to the end. They had a few really poor teachers so we took up the slack.

I have no problem with vouchers if that works for some families. There are likely some parents counting on private schools “parenting” their kids so they don’t have to just as there are the same type parents in public schools. We have to be honest with ourselves as parents and make sure we are doing what is truly best for our students. We also have to hold our kids accountable, teach them that education is their primary job, support them in the RIGHT way, and model the behaviors we expect them to mirror. We have to PARENT first.

I venture to guess that if you looked at individuals instead of groups, you’d see that there are some really great teachers and really motivated students in every school…public or private. Statistics mean never having to say you’re certain and they can certainly blur the picture. There are kids getting excellent educations in poorly performing schools and others sliding by in top-notch ones. It’s the lumped together test numbers that paints a dire picture.

By JustMe

March 20, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

OldSchool -

I agree with you 100% except for the acceptance of vouchers. There is no good reason for them. If any parent has a problem with their public school, they should work to resolve that problem and improve the public school.

Running away has never proven to solve any of societies problems in the long run (see “white-flight”).

By jim d

March 20, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Just me,

“private schools can operate outside of the rules and regulations of the government”

Uhm, some government financed schools such as charter schools operate without all of the governmental regulation imposed on most public schools as well. So what is your point?

By JustMe

March 20, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

jim d-

Charter schools still have to operate within a set of government rules - they are just a little different than the regular public school rules. Charter schools are certainly NOT free from all government rules. For example, Charter schools have to give the GHSGT. Charter schools have to make AYP. And, so on. Private schools do not do any of these things.

So, you are just plain WRONG when you say “…some government financed schools such as charter schools operate without all of the governmental regulation imposed on most public schools as well.”

By high school teacher

March 20, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

JustMe, I agree with your stance on vouchers. I don’t want my tax dollars to go to a child’s private education at The Hoity-Toity School or Snobs R Us Prepatory School. And I would venture to say that the headmasters at such schools don’t really want vouchers, either. Sure, their profits would increase, but they might not like the changes in their school’s demographics.

By jim d

March 20, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this

Just me,

Less than “all” might be one less.

Now let’s talk of your objections to vouchers. I’d wager your objections to vouchers drop like leaves from tree when it comes to other voucher programs. I ‘d not be surprised to discover that you love vouchers outside of K—12 education.

Federal Pell Grants, for instance, are vouchers for college kids. Each worth up to $3,300 annually, Pell Grants help students enroll in government schools such as UCLA and the University of Georgia. Of course, they also fund tuition at Stanford, Yale, and other private campuses. The Pell Grant program—fiscal 2000 taxpayer cost: $7.9 billion—also helped scholars study Catholic doctrine at Georgetown University, Mormon theology at Brigham Young and rabbinical practices at Yeshiva. What’s your stance on Pell Grants?

How about vouchers to help the poor keep roofs over their heads? “Section 8” vouchers let disadvantaged residents of high-rise government housing projects use federal dollars to rent more desirable private apartments. Some 3 million households shared over $14 billion in Section 8 funds last year.

Do you embrace vouchers that help poor people shop for competitively furnished services? Support food stamps? — essentially federal nutrition vouchers.

I’m just guessing here but I’d guess you only hate vouchers that would modernize government schools that too often transform innocent Kindergartners into ignorant 12th graders lacking basic skills for citizenship or professional success. Why not just admit that your true fear is that some voucher-empowered first-grader might flee a government school in Watts and actually learn to read at a quality school.

Feel free to correct me if I have the wrong impression.

By high school teacher

March 20, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this

I think the difference between school vouchers and the other programs you mentioned, Jim, is that parents don’t have to send their children to private school in order to get an education. Public education is free. No college is free, so I don’t have a problem with grant money. I do have a problem with long term food stamps, Section 8 housing, etc. They were intended to help people get back on their feet, but we have corrupted that purpose.

By jim d

March 20, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

Bridget,

Pell Grants have been around since 1973,

Section 8 has been around since 1974.

And the first food stamp program since May 16, 1939.

Yeah Vouchers are a tradition. It’s high -time we carried that tradition on into primary education.

By jim d

March 20, 2007 3:03 PM | Link to this

HSII,

I can appreciate those differences but still feel that we as a nation have, since the 30’s cared for the needy, giving them choices. To now say here’s what you get and you have no choice about something as important as an education sends a message that we don’t really give a rat’s behind what becomes of you.

Think of it this way. Providing an education that will allow people to find their way out of section 8 housing and off of welfare will pay for itself in the long run, improving the standard of living for all of us.

By JustMe

March 20, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

jim d-

Most of your “examples” are not “vouchers” at all. Again, you like to play word games to enhance your stance on an issue.

Another example of your word games is your last paragraph. You state that vouchers would “modernize” government schools. Your word choice of “modernize” is slanted to support your position.

Most of your “examples” that you claim, such as “vouchers” to help poor, are not at all comparisons to the proposed school “voucher” program. First of all, the school “vouchers” would be available to all while the poor “vouchers” are only for the poor that qualify (make under a specified income per year).

Pell Grants are not “vouchers” either. They are grants. And, one must qualify for these grants. In addition, as high school teacher pointed out, you cannot compare secondary education to college education because no one is guarenteed a free college education comparable to “public education”.

Basically, all of your last post is complete BS. You use incorrect examples to support your wrong position.

I would love to find anything that would really help improve public education. The proposed vouchers would not. Vouchers are the creation of stupid wealthy people trying to find some way to get public money for sending their kids to private school.

Consider this post as “contacting” you because you are, again, wrong.

By jim d

March 20, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

HST,

“No college is free”?

You might be surprised. In Ga. with HOPE and a Pell Grant it certainly is not expensive at the state schools. And I do believe I read something the other day regarding student elgibillity for both now.

By JustMe

March 20, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

jim d-

How is it that regardless of what I write, or HST writes, or anyone writes, we are all wrong and you are right?

Why is it when we point out all of your flawed logic and incorrect examples, you do not admit your errors, but rather continue your stubborn stance?

It would be more palitable for you to simply admit that you want public money to pay for your child’s private education and leave it at that!!!!

However, have you considered….

In reality, as a public school teacher, I feel that vouchers would prove once and for all that the main difference between private and public schools is the segregation. My public school would likely encourage our ‘rift-raft’ students to use their vouchers and go to Marist (a private school) or the like. As a result, Marist would quickly go downhill!

In addition, Marist would likely have to conform to the NCLB act and begin giving the GHSGT and try to make AYP every year. LOL - I think that I would just love that!!!

So then, be careful what you ask for - you might just get it!

By wwww

March 20, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this

You can say whatever you want, I am NOT spending my money on an overpriced private school education.
Bill Gates was a college dropout, right? Goes to show how important all this talk is in the first place.

By high school teacher

March 20, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

Providing an education that will allow people to find their way out of section 8 housing and off of welfare will pay for itself in the long run, improving the standard of living for all of us.

So you’re saying that only a private school education will accomplish this? Do you really have that little faith in public schools? I myself am a product of the Georgia public schools, as is my sister and brother. We are all very successful. Our spouses, all products of public schools, are all very successful. We’re not on welfare and live in a house that pay for! We all graduated from colleges in the University System of Georiga! All with a public education… But our standard of living will only improve if we allow vouchers to private school. Is that what you are saying?

When I said that college was not free, I meant before the grants and the Hope scholarship, not with them.

By jim d

March 20, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this

Just me,

Generally because I’m correct.

None the less, be advised that after next year I’ll not have a dog in this fight. I will however continue to support choice.

Section 8 not vouchers? Better check on that one.

Pell Grants not in essence a voucher? well If you say so. So what say we get the gov. to provide choice grants rather than vouchers? We could call the PEG’s (primary education grants)

Food stamps not an insturment the same as a voucher? Hmm, hadn’t thought of it as being any different. They are Government issue subsidies just as a voucher would be.

As for my being “stubborn”? You only need to provide me facts rather than a feeble opinon and answer the questions I posed.

By high school teacher

March 20, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

I apologize: I should have said, “as are my sister and brother,” and I left out the word we before “pay for.” It’s late in the day.

By jim d

March 20, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

HST,

No indeed. I believe Competition will improve both private and public schools.

Believe it or not, I am a public school advocate. I do not advocate dismantling public education, merely to force it to improve through competition, let the money follow the student. I feel the more choices we have the better. Personally I’d love to see an educational system that contained public schools, charter schools, magnet schools as well as for profit schools all working hand in hand for the betterment of society. I honestly and whole heartedly belive that parents are capable of making the choice that is right for them.

In other words, I don’t need no stinking politian dictating my childs education.

By Larry

March 20, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

This report does much more than invent a non-existent tradition.

It describes its listed programs as “from pre-K through graduate school” although none of the programs apply to K-12 public education courses.

One of the listed “scholarship aid programs” is CAPS, which pays for daycare while parents seek employment, and has nothing to do with scholarships or vouchers.

Every programs’ description contains the phrase “providers may also include religious organizations” to counter SB10’s opponents, but fails to mention this was the exact reason Jeb Bush’s Opportunity Scholarship Program was declared unconstitutional.

Jeb Bush claimed, in his recent editorial, that voucher opponents’ complaint about lack of accountability were proven wrong in Florida, and then backed up his statement with statistics from only public schools. That’s because he doesn’t HAVE and statistics from private schools. He proved his critics correct.

If this bill is such a good idea, why do they import people from out of state to lie about it?

By jim d

March 20, 2007 4:29 PM | Link to this

No need to apologize, Lord knows, I’m no blog spell cop. I got the gest of what you were saying. :-)

HAGD.

By jim d

March 20, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

Larry,

“If this bill is such a good idea, why do they import people from out of state to lie about it?”

Duh, think about which state we’re in here and where we rank nationally before asking a leading question like that.

By erica

March 20, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

Just me,

You know, I had never really thought of vouchers that way. So, the gov’t gives vouchers to FRL kids so that they can get their largely (yes, there are exceptions) dysfunctional, disruptive, slow learner selves the heck out of my kids’ school and on to a private school.

Because the school is private, they are not expected to get kids with IQs of 75 up to grade level and do not have to spend inordinate amounts of time pretending that these kids are going to college while ignoring the kids who have a ton of potential. They do the best they can with them and can track them however they see fit b/c they are not subject to the pc rules that public schools subject themselves to. The parents don’t care that their kids are tracked b/c they think they are getting stuff for free. They think that they have pulled something over on “the man.”

The FRL kids/families are happy. I am happy b/c a significant percentage of the dysfunction that pervades our schools is gone. My kid is happy and starts learning stuff for a change. You know this could work!

By high school teacher

March 20, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

Jim, I can understand trying to improve competition between schools, but what is measure you would suggest for said competition? Please do not say test scores! That’s like two bakeries having a competition on who makes the best apple pie: one can afford the finest apples and buys them to make the apples; the other is forced to use apples that are too old, new, damaged, etc. You can’t improve competition if there is no level playing field.

By Janine

March 20, 2007 5:04 PM | Link to this

JustMe@3:35 You make several good points. If anyone wishes to see the effect { that JustMe mentions } of “choice” on the “receiving schools”,all one has to do is look at the schools that received large numbers of students from so-called NCLB “failing” schools as a result of the NCLB transfer requirement…i.e. a student from a failing school may transfer at will to a school that is NOT failing. Let me assure you all, that the receiving schools did indeed go downhill,.. in test scores[several barely made AYP after scoring through the roof the year before] …in discipline problems…in more ways. Just talk to teachers and principals from those schools for verification….and/or check and compare their scores from the year before.

By Janine

March 20, 2007 5:08 PM | Link to this

For me, it’s not the issue of my tax money, it’s a matter of lack of foresight….It will not work!! The private schools will be under the same moronic political policies that public schools labor and suffer……because as somone above has said,no gov’t money comes without more strings than a tennis racket….and the private schools will no longer present outstanding test scores and achievement because they will no longer have the bonly est apples to work with.

By SET

March 20, 2007 5:36 PM | Link to this

Since it was brought up, Section 8 housing destroys neighborhoods by moving people who don’t belong (by class and deportment) into what was a stable neighborhood. Those tenants then proceed to wreck their housing and trash the neighborhood until it becomes a crime infested slum. They also get into the local public school and wreck that also.

It’s another example of our out-of-control government exceeding it’s constitutional boundries in a quest for power and control.

“Vouchers” for private schools is an extension of the “Section 8” mentality. And it’s probably going to be accompanied by “anti-discrimination” legislation to make sure that good schools can’t easily keep out bad people. Thank you very much, I prefer my private schools like me neighborhoods, left alone from Big Brother. No Voucher programs for me. I will vote against them and speak out against them. I want to block government expansion and take away government authority over the movement of people and their “association” affairs.

And don’t think this is just a racial issue. I’m black, my next door neighbor is Hispanic. In California “whites” are a minority anyway (and moving out fast). There is a class struggle going on and it’s the educated vs the underclass. We have superinflated the real estate here and it’s trickling down in prices of everything.

We don’t want government programs forcing us to live with violent, promiscuous, drug using, lower IQ types which is why the builders of this state is busy building gated communities.

Maybe you haven’t seen the effects of open borders and a welfare state in GA yet. It works like this. All the jobs your lower class used to have will be quickly taken from them. They will lose whatever ties they used to have with society at large. They go on every form of welfare and commit more crimes than before. Your jails will cease to function because of overcrowding releases. You will see geometrically increasing numbers of fatherless children hanging around. They will become more violent, more fearless and more brazen. Your politicians will attempt to give the underclass things paid for with your taxes. The underclass will have more children faster.

If a child’s family doesn’t have the money for the private school I send my kids to, I don’t want them in the school alongside my kid. It’s that simple.

By OldSchool

March 20, 2007 5:44 PM | Link to this

While I know nearly nothing about the admissions requirements of private schools, I would think that the admin/trustees/? could modify or completely rewrite them as needed to reject the less desirable students. Vouchers don’t guarantee the Marists and Woodward Academies will automatically accept any student. They might require a full transcript that includes a discipline record, attendance records, and any other document that will give them an in-depth picture of the student applying for admission.

So, while I am okay with vouchers (on the surface) I still think a dedicated student can get a very good education at a low performing school. All it takes is effort, solid parenting, encouragement, gumption, and the stamina to set and work to achieve personal goals in spite of any obstacles.

By Lee

March 20, 2007 6:49 PM | Link to this

As a parent and a taxpayer who has graduated one through public school and now is sending the second to private school, let me say that I am 100% against vouchers.

While I would welcome the financial releif vouchers would bring, I think that it do great harm to BOTH private and public schools.

• As others have noted before, there is no such thing as “Free” government money. It ALWAYS has strings attached. Why doesn’t Georgia walk away from NCLB? Because the federal government pays over $1 billion for us to stay in it. I would expect no less from a voucher program.

• A voucher program would not affect the elite schools such as a Marist. They would either refuse to accept voucher money or they would raise tuition accordingly. Either way, they would screen who got in.

• Implement a voucher program and overnight, you would have private schools in every vacant building around. It would just be a matter of time before some scam artist would rip off the proceeds and the same parents would be crying for the government to come bail them out of the mess they got therselves into.

• Meddling politicians are part of the reason public schools are in the mess they are in now. You really want them handing out tax money to private enterprise? Yeah, I know, that’s what they do with Medicare and a host of other handouts. That’s worked out real well, hasn’t it?

• I wouldn’t mind a tax credit though. Fat chance of that happening. First time someone proposed that, The Great Moronic Choir would start their “tax breaks so rich folks can send their kids to private school” chant. There is justification though. Because I send my child to private school, my school system doesn’t have to spend another $10-12k.

• BTW, I see a big difference between lottery money and tax supported programs. Even though the government controls both, I have yet to see a guy wearing a gun and badge show up at my front door because I didn’t buy a Lotto ticket.

By C.R.H.

March 20, 2007 7:08 PM | Link to this

SET hit the nail on the head (as usual) section 8 has had terrible effects on entire communities…just check out Clayton County & Douglas County. Both counties used to be middle class and are now, or quickly, becoming the dumping grounds for the trash coming out of Atlanta public housing (as well as from other areas around the country). Sorry if the language offends but I call it the way I see it.

By HS Teacher Too

March 20, 2007 7:12 PM | Link to this

Just Me —

I thought I posted this earlier, but haven’t been back to the computer in hours and just now see that it never made it.

First, I didn’t put words in your mouth. Please re-read my post; I wasn’t inferring that you were saying ALL private school teachers couldn’t pass the certification tests — I was simply saying that making the claim that even MANY of them are where they are for that reason, without any factual back-up, was pretty brazen. On the other hand, I also agreed with you based on my own experiences, similar to yours. In my experiences I have also known many private school teachers who did not have state certification; and I tried to point out that the reason for that might be quite different than an inability to pass the qualification tests.

Now that being said, it really doesn’t matter, does it?

You made the point that private educations aren’t necessarily all that different from, or worse than, public educations, and I agree with you! However we have to keep in mind that to give something a classification as “better” or “worse” is itself inherently subjective. For example, I think in the sense that private schools CAN kick kids out, and thus can avoid some of the disciplinary distractions, that DOES make for a “better” education. Similarly, well-funded private schools can offer many more options, smaller classes, a diversity of enrichment not necessarily afforded public school kids. Again, I like that. But on the other hand, I like the general diversity of public schools, I think there is something to be learned from seeing people from all backgrounds, and I certainly prefer the lesser entitlement that develops (or might develop) in a public school atmosphere. So as you can tell, ultimately I think an education is what you make it.

But at the end of the day, I do NOT want voucher money going to private schools. When public money funds private enterprise, they cease to be quite as private … in other words, as you said in a later post, the government takes a say in how its money is spent.

Sorry if I am repeating things that were already hashed over. I don’t know what happened to my earlier post and I also wanted to be sure you didn’t think I was attacking you.

Jim d, thanks for your comments in response to my question.

By HS Teacher Too

March 20, 2007 7:15 PM | Link to this

SET,

Amen!

By OldSchool

March 20, 2007 7:30 PM | Link to this

Maybe (and very likely) vouchers are just a way of making legislators “look good” to their constituents. Afterall, there has been precious little well-thought out, genuinely useful legislation in years. It seems to be not so much what will actually correct the inadequacies of Georgia education but what can be done to make them just look like they care.

“The opposite of pro is con so the opposite of progress must be congress.” Gallagher

By thomas

March 20, 2007 7:40 PM | Link to this

First of all— let’s debunk the myth that private schools are better than public schools.

1) Private schools, regardless of class (YES, THERE ARE DIFFERENT CLASSES OF PRIVATE SCHOOLS), get to vet the kind of students that enter. Public MUST take ANY student who lives in that district. The school must then provide what ever special services that student needs (SPED, ESOL, SST, gifted, etc). 2) Private school teachers are no more qualified than public school teachers. In fact, many times they are LESS qualified than public school teachers. 3) The curriculum is not any better (and in many cases is WORSE) than the public school curriculum.

The reason the average private school is able to be halfway successful is that they are able to weed out the most disruptive and needy students. In addition the parents are a LITTLE more motivated to help their child succeed at school since they are paying anywhere from $3,500 to $12,000 a year to attend these schools. The little teachers they have working there are able to eke out an existence due to the fact that they are not really challenged like a real life teacher would be. They get to pretty much “play” school.

Think about it. If you put one of these “Christian academy” teachers in an average public school, they would be eaten up and spit out. The shocking reality is that the parents of many students who attend these little “private schools” actually teach their children at home and supplement the instruction provided at “school.”

THE ONLY REASON THEY ARE AT “PRIVATE” SCHOOL IN THE FIRST PLACE IS THAT THE PARENTS WANT THEIR CHILDREN IN AN EXCLUDED ENVIRONMENT. IT’S ALL ABOUT ISOLATING THEIR CHILDREN SOCIALLY.

This is why the parents “help” their kids at home with their schooling. They want their children to succeed (not necessarily learn anything)through “good academic performance”, but the main point at being at a private school is so that little Johnny is surrounded by other kids who come from families like his.

By luvs2teach

March 20, 2007 7:46 PM | Link to this

Hey kids - great discussion going on…

I’m surprised that a Libertarian Law firm supports this issue - as a “closet Libertarian” I would love to see all schools go private (not something I’m ever likely to see, but still…).

I am generally against vouchers - and I don’t understand how Republicans can support it, as it seems so Marxist to me (from each according to his abilities = property taxes you pay based on the value of your home…to each according to his needs = money for a private school? IDK, maybe I’m wrong…). As Lee and others mentioned, elite schools would stay elite and fly-by-night schools would sprout (look at the tutoring fiasco in Clayton county - the call went out “free money, free money” and the hounds came running). If I were a private school thinking about accepting vouchers, I would really worry about what the government would ask for in return - no strings attached indeed. Finally, how do you feel about voucher money going to renters, FRL, and section 8 recipients? FRL and Section 8 recipients are already getting taxpayer money (whether it’s a “voucher” or not, I’ll leave to jim d to discuss), and renters (yeah, yeah - they pay taxes through their rent - I KNOW!) are much more likely to leave a district - a problem if the voucher comes from a source other than the federal government.

With all that being said, I am interested in the special ed vouchers - simply becuase I don’t think the schools do a good job of educating special needs children - that is where the bulk of schools who don’t make AYP miss. The program would have to be implemented very carefully though.

I like more choice - studies have shown children do better in systems that have choice - yet ironically, it doesn’t seem to be the choice that matters, but the fact that because parents can make a choice they tend to be more involved and have a vested interest - they found inprovement even when students did not get their selected school - weird, huh?

I like magnets and I like charters - and I think districts who have excellent magnet and charter schools should open up their schools for more kids who pay tuition. Why pay Marist when you could pay Walton if Walton was closer?

Finally, like Lee and others, I like the idea of a tax credit for private school, but stepped so it phased out after a certain income - much like the childcare credit.

By irisheyes

March 20, 2007 8:33 PM | Link to this

JustMe, Thanks for completely insulting my intelligence and hard work in college. I was in a private school for seven years, and every single teacher I worked with was certified in my state. In addition, I made almost a perfect score on the NTE (National Teachers Exam required for certification in my state). I only left the private schools and joined the public schools because I couldn’t afford to be paid at their salary anymore. So, before you make blanket statements, check all of your facts. Private school teachers are not idiots. And, they do the job with less support, facilities, materials, and money.

In addition, as a public school teacher, I am all for vouchers. Before you think I’ve lost my mind, our IRR teachers at my school are worthless. They are all for inclusion, and then leave it to the classroom teacher to try and plan the lessons so they don’t have to do anything. If I had a SPED student in my school, I’d use the vouchers so fast it would make your head spin. I think parents need options. These kids need a chance to succeed, and if they think their school isn’t doing it, why shouldn’t they have an opportunity to move?

By JustMe

March 21, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

My dear Irisheyes,

I did not “insult your intelligence” in any previous post. However, I will in this post because obviously you have problems with reading comprehension! Please go back and read my posts regarding your issue.

What I said was that private schools do not require certified teachers. What I said was that I know quite a few education majors that could not pass the PRAXIS to become certified and so they ended up teaching in private schools.

And, keep in mind that this is the AJC in the State of GA. This is the frame of reference not only for these blogs but also for most of the readers that post here.

By Lee

March 23, 2007 8:48 AM | Link to this

Thomas, having a little “private school envy” are we?

By your own admission, “If you put one of these “Christian academy” teachers in an average public school, they would be eaten up and spit out.”

If the “average public school” is in such a disarray that it would “eat up and spit out” an ADULT teacher, why then would anyone want to place their child in that environment?

But, you are right about one thing. One of the reasons I send my child to private school is where she can go to school “surrounded by other kids who come from families like [hers]”

You know, its nice to talk to her about the science experiments they are conducting instead of how many fights there were at school, or why the teacher spent half the class dealing with some behavior disorder.