Get Schooled

By JustMe

March 12, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

IMHO, you have to separate out the question asked….

I think it is better for the special ed student to be mainstreamed. They need to learn to operate within the norms of society.

I do not think it is better for the other students. Teachers have to make too many accommodations and spend too many resources for the few at the expense of the many.

Please realize that it is my understanding that the severe special ed students are already in self-contained classes. We are talking about mild special ed students - those likely going for a regular high school diploma.

By Janine

March 12, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

There is no doubt that when special needs students [as well as non-English speaking students] are mainstreamed there are enlightening, educational, and enriching social/emotional experiences that occur for all. However, I do not believe that it is reasonable or prudent to expect a teacher to address the needs of all members of this diverse group successfully or efficiently.

By fed up

March 12, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

The question is what’s better for whom? It may arguably be better for some very mildly special ed students to be mainstreamed.

From an academic standpoint, it is never better for mainstream and particularly high achieving children to be in classes with special ed kids. The gifted and high achievers end up sitting around “reading” or tutoring the special ed kids all day.

Meanwhile, the special ed kids get to feel really stupid because they know that they are holding the class back and they know that they are being tutored by other kids their age.

This mainstreaming is mainly an attempt at making children more accepting of children unlike themselves. That is a wonderful goal, but we also need to consider that the primary purpose of a school is to teach skills not promote social engineering.

Special ed children often need to focus on life skills. These are not taught in the regular classroom. At the same time, the kids with the skills to drive the economy, solve world problems and lead this nation are not being taught to their ability any longer.

So whether mainstreaming special ed is a good thing depends on your goal. If you are trying to teach efficiently, it’s a terrible idea. If you are trying to build self esteem, it only builds the self esteem of the kids who do the free tutoring, but certainly not the special ed kids. If the purpose is to teach the special ed kids more effectively, it may or may not help depending on the kid’s disability. If you are trying to teach acceptance… again arguable. Kids who are not trained to tutor others and who do not yet have the maturity to deal with the frustration of teaching special needs kids really do get irritated, and I’m not sure how much that promotes acceptance.

And special needs parents, you have no idea how much other kids are teaching your child. I spend a lot of time in different classrooms with my work.. and it happens every day in every class.

By Janine

March 12, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

The advantages of smaller , self contained academic classes for special needs students far outweigh the advantages of mainstreaming. However, I think mainstreaming for Music/Art/PE and extra curricular activities is a fine idea.

By JustMe

March 12, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

fed up -

It is my understanding that the special ed students that need to learn “life skills” such as how to shop at a grocery store, how to ride public transportation, etc. are not main streamed but are in self-contained classes. At least, this is how it is at my high school.

By Ernest

March 12, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this

This is a tough one as I believe we are ‘compassionate’ and always root for the ‘underdog’. Despite this, we could end up ‘holding some children behind’ in an attempt to provide accomodations for special needs children.

Full disclosure, I’m speaking as the husband of a special needs teacher that has done this for over 20 years. She has concerns of ‘collaborative’ instruction, where she is paired with a regular classroom teacher to provide instruction for a ‘mixed audience’ class. To no fault of the ‘lead’ teacher, there were situations in which she felt she was not used properly, when they experimented with this a few years ago. At the end of the experiment, she ended up doing ‘small learning communities’ within the class for those that needed attention. I guess one could ‘rationalize’ the students were not pulled out and remained a part of the regular class. Could this have still been successful by having the special needs students in their own class for their area of need then with the full class for other sections? My observation is this may be a subtle attempt to reduce the number of classrooms and possibly headcount in the future.

If these vouchers were to pass, I question if there are schools outside of the public school system that could offer the services some of the special needs students need. I also recall us discussing earlier if there is a means to ‘recertify’ whether the special needs label still exists, year to year.

By Morethanfedup

March 12, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

Better for whom? No way you are going to convince me that a special ed student is not going to hold the class back. And depending on how mildly special ed they are, they will probaby know it.

They have SPECIAL needs, that’s why they are called SPECIAL ed. Keep them in their own SPECIAL classroom so the rest of the kids can get the education my tax dollars are paying for.

By Jeff

March 12, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

Back in the day when I was teaching, I saw both the benefits and the detriments.

Not that I agree with the “EBD” label - I think someone needs to put belt to heiney to solve that problem - but by FAR the ones that cause problems in mainstream classrooms are the EBD kids. I had students classified MID, OHI, and pretty much all the others. The ONLY spec ed kids that EVER made the teaching/ learning environment more difficult were the EBD kids. Mainstream the vast majority - like others have said, other than the truly severe “life skills” levels - of the other SpecEd students. Self-contain the EBD’s. 98% of the classroom level problems are solved….

By catlady

March 12, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this

Most of the day, MOST of the special ed students in my school are in regular classes. Special, independent classes can focus on the specific needs of special students. Independent classes for special students leave regular ed teachers time to teach the majority of the students who do not have identified special needs. The problem comes from the regular ed teacher being stretched so thin already (because a “regular” class is not very homogeneous anyway) and provide for the more needy special students, at the expense of the other 25 in the class. This is not right.

Same thing for ESOL. The kids need instruction with their class AS WELL AS pull out to deal with specific skills.

By Morethanfedup

March 12, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

Maybe this is a dumb question, but Jeff, what is EBD?

By Jeff

March 12, 2007 12:42 PM | Link to this

Sorry!

EBD == “Emotional/ Behavioral Disorders”

OHI == “Other Helath Impairment”

MID == “Mild Intellectual Disability” (in Southern: “them’s slow!”)

SID == “Severe Intellectual Disability” (in Southern: “them’s retards!”)

That’s all the related acronyms I can think of for now, unless ya want me to throw in some random ones! (I LOVE being back in computing!)

By OldSchool

March 12, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

As a CTAE instructor, I’m supposed to be preparing my high school students to enter the job market needing only some training to meet the specific needs of the employer. Right now I have some special ed students that will never be employable as drafters.

I have never had any training in how to effectively modify my teaching or my instructional materials to meet the needs of any special needs student AND get them job ready.

I understand the need for the socialization of all children but can’t that be accomplished in physical education classes or something of that nature? They need academic classes geared to enhancing their ability to communicate effectively and to look after themselves. Put the high functioning ones in my class but give me some tools that will help us both!

As it stands, I am underserving my skilled students for the sake of teaching and reteaching and reteaching my special needs and low performers.

By JustMe

March 12, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

Earnest -

I think that you have hit the nail on the head… There is a road which we are on to eliminate teacher head count. And, inclusion is along this road.

Currently, special ed teachers are asked to “specialize” in a content area: math, science, etc. This is also along the same road.

The road nears the end when the special ed teacher is asked to be the lone teacher in their area of specialty for a general classroom that happens to be inclusion. And viola! We have eliminated a head count!

By Ernest

March 12, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

OldSchool, you hit on the point I made earlier. Can you learn how to teach collaboratively after attending a half hour inservice? There is a lot more to doing this effectively that just relying on the teachers to ‘figure it out’ themselves.

I also agree with Jeff, it seems the EBD students present the greatest challenges with mainstreaming. I would not be surprised to the parents of the ‘regular ed’ students complain if they feel their child’s education is being compromised.

By fed up

March 12, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

With all this harping on being competitive in a worldwide marketplace going on these days, you’d think that people would wake up and realize that it’s the gifted/talented crowd that needs the focus. Thanks to NCLB, theya re completely ignored at best.

Who is going to keep the U.S. competitive, the kid with the 140 IQ or the one sitting next to him with an 80 IQ? Who is going to provide the job for the kid with the 80 IQ if the one with a 140 doesn’t have the skills to create jobs?

I just want to see the day when gifted kids are offered vouchers similar to the special needs vouchers. Then maybe teachers/administrators will treat them and their families with something other than contempt.

By JustMe

March 12, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

fed up -

As a certified gifted teacher, let me assure you that I do not treat gifted students with contempt! If anything, I regularly go to our administration to petition for gifted classes.

By brain injury

March 12, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

durrrrrrrr. ((drooo)) ~fart~

By MusicTeacher

March 12, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

Okay, this one hits home for me because I am currently dealing with a situation. I have a class of 13 students that are either in special education or in the gifted program. I don’t know what genius thought this would be a good idea but I am literally pulling out my hair! One of the students is mildly retarded which causes even more problems. Because I am a music teacher, I am given no assistance with teaching these students.

Now, for anyone that understands the gifted child, you know that gifted children are high energy. Many of them are literally borderline ADHD. On the other hand, I have students special education that I’ve been told can’t read or write. They don’t understand one word that we’re reading out of the textbook and when there’s a writing assignment they’re asking me how to spell words like uncle.

I truly feel that while mainstreaming sounds great, in reality it just doesn’t work. The reality is that these children are different and need to be dealt with on a level in which they can experience success. Along with all of the daily discipline problems that we teachers encounter, it’s just one more thing to add to the pot.

By high school teacher

March 12, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

I hear you, JustMe. We need to protect our gifted classes.

Just a side note on this proposed legislation: special ed kids would get a voucher to attend the private school of their choice, BUT… their test scores would still count in with their home school’s AYP results! Can someone please tell me the logic in that?

By V for Vendetta

March 12, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

I would love it if the realities of inclusion were learning on a massive scale, a free puppy for every student, and general acceptance and well being across the board, but …

The actual realities (minus the unicorns, midas touch, and helpful keebler elves) is that inclusion harms the MAJORITY of kids education while helping only a few. I sound like I have a very harsh attitude towards this topic, but in reality I don’t. I have never been put upon in a classroom setting and have only had to teach one “team-taught” class since I started. I’m simply stating the obvious from stories I have heard from colleagues.

True Story: A math teacher was teaching an HONORS level math class full of bright and intelligent students. A young girl with “mild” autism was placed in her class because from a simple ability standpoint she was capable of advanced math work. She then proceeded to pick her nose, lick her pencil, and generally disrupt the class in ways that even the honors kids could not ignore. As a result, class time that should have been spent learning was wasted getting the kids back on track and telling them to ignore Pencil Lickers antics.

This story may not be the most common example. Heck, it might be the only example of something like this, but I doubt it. In some jobs, if we are truly going to be good at them, we need to be less concerned with people’s FEELINGS and more concerned with RESULTS.

I’m sure the regular ed kids could learn “tolerance”, or whatever pathetic excuse for inclusion the higher-ups are using these days in a thousand other ways. Other ways that wouldn’t negatively impact their education I’ll bet.

By Morethanfedup

March 12, 2007 1:45 PM | Link to this

Fedup: AMEN!!!!!

Thank you, thank you for someone telling it like it is!!!!!!!

By Janine

March 12, 2007 1:45 PM | Link to this

Highschool teacher..Whoa..NCLB strikes again!!!

By brain injury

March 12, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

i hd the choce of brin in a nurmal class or bein write in a a clas with othur spciul kids. I choose to be in the clas with specul kids becuse we we leurned more things that i wanted to read about.

Jimmy

By fed up

March 12, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

Fed up, I know you don’t. People who understand gifted needs know why they need more attention than they get now and I know that many gifted endorsed teachers work very hard to get gifted kids what they need.

The contempt comes often from mainstream teachers and principals who can’t understand why Johnny can only sit bored to tears for so long and can’t see why Johnny doesn’t find several hours of providing free tutoring for the school system each week fulfilling.

This is the same crowd that jumps up and down like you just shot at them if you bring up accelerating a child a grade. They need to keep them on age level or they lose the free tutoring.

Thank you for what you do. Gifted kids have special needs that are just as important as those of special ed kids. The only difference is that they will pass the CRCT regardless of the damage done to them.

Again, my apologies. I overgeneralized.

By MusicTeacher

March 12, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

high school teacher

There is absolutely no logic in using test scores from another school! This is the problem with the education system. They don’t use logic MOST of the time! It would be nice to see them come to educators for their opinions.

On a side note, I think vouchers are great. My son is gifted and only gets one day a week with his TAG teacher. How does this help his special learning style? His needs are not even being met simply because he’s gifted. It just ain’t fair!

By Fed up

March 12, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

Thank you V - I couldn’t have said it better myself.

One day politicians will realize that most of their votes come from parents whose kids are being shortchanged by these stupid, Kumbaya policies.

Schools were put on this earth to impart information to students using as few of the taxpayer dollars as possible. They have completely lost sight of their mission.

Gifted vouchers!!!!

By fed up

March 12, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

Oops, just me I was referring to you above. I made a typo and referred to myself.

I am sleep deprived today, so I’ve been talking to myself all day.

Thanks Just Me - for all you are doing. Gifted kids have few allies in this world.

By fed up

March 12, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

Fed up, you are ahead of me. My kids get only one hour a week. Our gifted teachers have decided that they exist to teach ALL kids (including special ed) higher order thinking skills so they teach the whole class and that counts for most of my kids’ gifted time.

Hopefully the Chinese and Indians that are running this country in another generation will hire my kids to do their low level work.

By Steve P.

March 12, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

Nice story brain injury, where do you attend School, or should I say Skool?

By G'Vegas Dawg

March 12, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

This is a very loaded question and forgive me if I restate what someone else has already stated, as I don’t have time to read all of the other previous quotes at this time. I have briefly read over some of the posts and see a lot of the same thoughts. In order to answer this question fairly you have to disect the question. Mainstream and self-contained are not the only options available to SPED kids. When a child is in co-teaching classes there is still support from a special ed teacher. They are not just being thrown to the wolves and be expected to learn. It also depends on the student. A child that has an EBD (Emotional Behavior Disorder) eligibility should not always be in a co-teacing setting because of the disturbances that he or she causes the class. However, since we are in the NCLB times, we have to go by NCLB rules. It is difficult to teach a SPED child to the same standard as a reg. ed child. However, you would be surprised at how quickly a sped child picks some things up. Being in a co-teaching setting allows for this. As I said before, this is a very loaded question that can not be answered on a BLOG.

By Bonnie C.

March 12, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Interesting comments from a variety of perspectives. My SPED son is turning 20 the end of this week and unfortunately, only finished the 8th grade with a couple courses in the 9th. He is ADHD with some EBD. He was both main-streamed and small classroom but neither worked well for him. I spent much of my time educating all of the teachers on how to handle him effectively. At the end, it was the students who ran him out for being different. I believe the voucher system is an excellent alternative. I spent many years looking for alternatives but didn’t have the money. He’s attemped to get his GED a couple of times. Hopefully, some day!

By Lisa B.

March 12, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

I totally agree with Fedup’s 11:46 post.

I am tired of ignoring the needs of the best and brightest students. Educators spend far too many resources, (i.e. time, money, etc.) on the students least likely to contribute to society as adults. My son was in the “inclusion class,” last year in 6th grade. He is a nice, bright kid. He worked well with the Special Ed kids, but academically, it was a wasted year for my son in everything but math. He spent the school year reading low level books to the special ed kids, reading aloud the Science and Social Studies tests and activities, etc. By the end of the year, my son was the only student in his class who would even sit with the special ed kids. The other students were sick of them. Thankfully, my son’s math teacher didn’t use students as tutors. No one can afford a wasted year in math.

I will fight to get my son moved if he ever gets stuck with an inclusion class again.

By a teacher's perspective...

March 12, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

When I was a foreign language teacher in the public schools, I spent an entire semester teaching that a Spanish compound verb must have two words (just like English). After endless repetition, on the test I did not feel it necessary to remind students that a compound verb has two words, as this would be dumbing-down for the average student. However, if I did not include such instructions on the test, parents of mainstreamed kids might object that I did not give them a “fair chance” and get mad at me, threaten to sue, etc. (Teachers really do live with the constant threat of lawsuits and any number of other things and must increasingly watch their Ps and Qs more and more all the time. There is so much criticism and so little support.) Examples such as this can make mainstreaming a bit frustrating and everyone knows it. With teachers having to wear diverse hats of teacher, policeman, disciplinarian, mom, judge, mediator, and grade-giver (of course always keeping in mind that everyone is entitled to nothing less than As and Bs because of the Hope scholarship), how in the world is one person with a class of 30, who must keep an eye on the entire class at all times, be expected to give the individual attention special-needs students deserve?

By Lisa B.

March 12, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this

Bonnie,

I have a 16-year-old niece with Down-Syndrome. My sister has moved twice to avoid inclusion classes. My niece just can’t handle being in a room full of students. If they ever have SPED vouchers in my sister’s state, I am certain she’d go for it.

By RealSpecialNeeds

March 12, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

Our child has been in special education since 3rd grade, is now a seventh grader, is OHI, MID, has an IEP (Individual Education Plan) and half of classes are mainstream.

The mainstream classes are not working from several points.

Where are the studies to support that there are enough certified special ed educational resources available in the private sector.

For those parents of the gifted children, I can only wish you well.

We will never have such a heavy burden to carry, worrying about how to support and maintain the demanding educational requirements of such a gifted child.

Our concern is only with equipping our child with just the basic abilities to just make it in society vs. live with us until our deaths.

By Bonnie C

March 12, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

Please don’t forget that the SPED kids are people too. The prejudices I’m reading here are very sad. My son is already making contributions to society. Brains don’t count for everything.

By deidreNC

March 12, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

my daughter spend lots of time tutoring slower learners in her class..she is in the 10th grade and has always done this…i feel her time could be better spent learning extra stuff-but the school and classes are not set up for that…grrr

By high school parent

March 12, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

The levels in school now appear to be “Gifted” - students who passed the “gifted test”. “Honors”- students who want to be in school and are willing to study etc. “Regular”- students who could care less about being in school and “Spec ed”- a student with some sort of disablity, either physical or mental. Any regular education student who wants to be in school but is yet unable to quite make all A’s is left to the mercy of all the rest.

By Charles

March 12, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

A local professor lectured on self contained schools in the South during the fifties and sixties using another name. Northerners would boast that they had already been mainstreamed long ago. The self contained schools in the South had the best of teachers. The students were highly motivated to learn and the community actually demanded excellence from students, said the professor. I can assure you that these self-contained schools and students were par-excellence.

A few informed although confused individuals thought that mainstreaming would be a good idea in the late sixties; it was not actually referred to as mainstreaming. It has proven to be counterproductive. As a result of mainstreaming, par-excellence and truth have been vanquished. There is no discipline or no nonsense teachers, students and parents have lost their balance. Many believe that there is no value in truth if it is perceived as negative. Don’t accuse their parents for this sordid quagmire, they were also mainstreamed. What a tragedy.

Self contained schools are better for disabled children. On the surface, we may see many positive changes taking place in the lives of children because of mainstreaming. Yet it is better to focus on the core issues which will provide unseen, immeasurable, untold meaning to the lives of disabled children. Only self contained schools can address the core issues adequately.

By Bonnie C

March 12, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

AMEN to RealSpecialNeeds comments! Good job!

By V for Vendetta

March 12, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this

RealSpecialNeeds - your comments are both appreciated and VERY important. Thank you for posting them here!

Bonnie C - as I said before, I harbor no ill will towards special ed students, I am simply stating what many teachers feel is an obvious conclusion (and thus hugely frustrating fact): special ed kids do better in specialized programs. Inclusion DOES NOT WORK.

By Huh?

March 12, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

RealSpecialNeeds, it’s tragic that you have to deal with your situation. But did it occur to you that your child’s special needs have a negative impact on other kid’s needs, and that concern isn’t just selfishness?

It’s a matter of all parents wanting the best educational options and support for their children. Another parent wanting their kid’s needs to take precidence over your kid’s needs..isn’t that just the reverse of your desires?

And don’t be so dismissive of other parents with “gifted” or “normal” kids. Some day one of them might grow up to solve the problems that have resulted in your kid being OHI or whatever.

Right now, instead of a gifted kid being nurtured into a career as a top-notch scientist, they’re being ignored and will instead end up being a mid-level marketing manager. They will never reach the level of potential, considering their raw talents, that your Special Needs child will. We all lose when that happens too. And those parents should rightfully be angry at the unfair allocation of resources that shortchange their children.

By thomas

March 12, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this

**Here is my experience/opinion on with inclusion. This is from a teacher who has had “collaborative” SPED classes and done “push-in” ESOL:

IT DOESN’T WORK”.**

I will explain why- 1) The SPED and ESOL students are usually too far behind the other students academically. Thus they require ENORMOUS amounts of extra support and work modification. IN ALMOST ALL SUBJECT AREAS. Even the high functioning ESOL students require additional assistance which is hard to provide in a classroom of 27, 28, or 30 students.

2) Secondly, many SPED students are behavior problems. They disrupt the classroom. BIG TIME!!!!!!!!

3) Despite the rhetoric about inclusion/collaborative teachers being in the classroom to help the teacher/students, these teachers are only there from 45-120 minutes a day. The academic day for k-2 is 270 minutes/3-5 is 300 minutes. The burden is placed on the regular ed teacher to deal with these students the rest of the day.

4) Other students often end up “helping” these low performing students attempt to eke out an existence in the classroom. The SPED/ESOL kids can’t do the work/read the books/understand what’s going on. So the teacher gets a student who has finished their work to “help” so-and-so do this, that, etc. In the end the child really doesn’t get it anyway. The regular student has basically told so-and-so what to write.

What inclusion is good for is the development of social skills. SPED students get to learn how to interact with other students their own age. ESOL students get exposed to conversational English.

But most of the time, neither of these groups can understand most of what takes place in the regular classroom. After a while most ESOL students can progress to the point where that are academically proficient. But in the beginning, they cannot even understand “take out your pencil.”

Even today— I worked like a dog just trying to teach four ESOL students- one student who speaks NO English, one who is barely functional in English, and two others who have some conversational skills, but are weak academically. This is out of 13 fourth graders in an EIP self contained, watered down classroom. I can’t imagine trying to do this in a regular fourth grade class with 28 kids.

But I will tell you this— if I had the other SPED kids that are currently self-contained in my class now, there is nothing I could do with them. This is the burden classroom teachers have. Students who cannot read on a 1st grade level, or add 23 + 12 are dumped into the regular classroom, along hardened deliquents (EBD), and teachers are expect to carry on just like nothing has happened. It affects all students- not the SPED students. In addition— most SPED students prefered the resource room to the regular classroom because they felt more comfortable there. SPED teachers don’t want to be “inclusion” teachers because they would basically end up being “helpers” in regular classrooms and not be able to provide the instruction they KNOW their kids need.

By Frustrated

March 12, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

Instead of blaming the education system, put the blame where it belongs. It is the politicians that are to blame! They need to stay in their own arena and leave education to the teachers. NCLB is behind the full inclusion push.

By Morethanfedup

March 12, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

My father’s family was comprised of pretty brillaint people. My dad himself was trully gifted (as in 165 IQ, Mensa member, etc.) He placed a lot of value in education and when my it was time for my children to start schooling, I was fretting because I am not able to afford private schooling and I was afraid of my pretty smart kid not getting the stimulation that he needs. My dad told me: “The cream will always rise to the top”. And you know what? It is true! Yes I am PO’ed that he doesn’t get the “extras” that the SPEDs seem to get as a matter of course, but his is excelling in all areas and I am sure he will be just fine.

I realized a long time ago that it is on me to make sure that my kid gets all he needs, which I why I provide extras at home, we do the extracurrulars, sports, art, science, etc. Maybe that’s something all the people out there complaining that their special need child is not getting what they need ought to think about.

By fed up

March 12, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

Yep, the cream will rise to the top. The top is no longer very high up anymore thanks to nclb.

By retired tired

March 12, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

I taught middle school students for 33 years before I retired. AMEN to the EBD students mainstreamed into regular ed classes comments. EBD might have a normal range IQ but have all sorts of emotional and behavioral problems. They are also capable of having their own agendas/issues with other classmates. One of these students can disturb a class. More than that and the school is simply warehousing. I recall the year I started the day with an advanced class which was heavenly until the powers that be decided that this was the perfect place of an EBD/ADHD child. The class went to hell. (I loved working with students who listened, understood or looked for explanations. My role was to guide them and expose them to new ideas and concepts. Once given a challenge, they ran with it. Then there was the year that I ended the day with 32 students after PE and seven of them were special ed. Three of those were EBD. Stir them in with the raging harmones of the middle school jocks and the coy flirtation of the cute cheerleaders and what you have is a three ring circus. Each time the class makeup was discussed the primary problems were beginning with the EBD students. I must ask: What is the logic of special ed students being required to pass grade level standardized test as part of the “No Child Left Behind” improvements. If a child could do grade level work on a consistant basis then the child would NOT be in special ed!!

By Fulton County Mom

March 12, 2007 4:37 PM | Link to this

What about a blended day? Some things the kids might take together as they get older (music, home ec, something?) but academically children should be seperated by ability special ed or no. If Susie is better in Reading than Sally then put Sally in a different class…..Maybe Sally is better in History so put her in the higher class there…..I am so SICK of the one size fits all BS the legislature and school systems have saddled us with.

Add to this that getting an appointment to discuss ANYTHING with the school face to face takes an act God. (I WISH I had the money for private school).

By RealSpecialNeeds

March 12, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this

“Huh?”,

Please get involved with your childs education!

It will save you from the ravages of such a mundane life for your child as a “mid-level marketing type”.

Nothing your child does will have near as much impact on our child as our deep involvement in our childs education.

By RealSpecialNeeds Thomas,

Our experience is on par with your explanations.

The experiences of professionals along with parents in this forum appears to support “no mainstreaming”.

We will not be allowing it next year with out child.

Now how many dollars would a voucher need to be.

Special Ed classes have a Teacher and a Para Pro.

This works out to about $70,000 in salary overhead not including facility and materials costs in education.

Based on this gross estimate, the voucher would need to be $7,000-$10,000.

I am not sure of the motivation behind this. Is it to eventually remove special education from public schools?

By SpecialDadSpecialKids

March 12, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

I am the father of two beautiful children. My daughter is 14 and is in the gifted program and my son is 12 and is in a self-contained classroom. He is on the severe range of the autism spectrum. Our special education teachers are beautiful people who are having to succumb to the politicians. My son, thanks to GAA, is having to learn 7th grade level standards in Math,Science,Social Studies, and Language Arts. His teacher is banging her head trying to get out his portfolio that will gather dust on some desk and never be read. And the discussion is on vouchers? My son loves Barney and Blues Clues. He can’t understand math,science….I have accepted the fact he will never be independent nor contribute economically to society. Sounds like some education officials need to accept that as well….functional life skills. That should be the focus…not some trumped up portfolio for GAA to meet AYP goals. Thanks to my son’s teachers…..I can carry him shopping and eating in a restaurant.
I can’t imagine my son and daughter in the same classroom for academic subjects. That is not fair to either child. Sounds good in a PowerPoint presentation…..good way to reduce headcount!

By Fred Earl Pinson, Jr.

March 12, 2007 5:19 PM | Link to this

Ms. Gutierrez:

I am responding your article, “Mainstream Vs. Self-Contained: What’s Better?”, which appeared on ajc.com on March 12, 2007. I am copying the public comment that I intended to read to the House Education Committee’s Sub-Committee on Choice. Regrettably, I had to leave before getting to speak.

Vouchers or Inclusion

I went to a private school for children with disabilities for 8 years, and although that school’s occupational therapy department really helped me, I only progressed to 4th or 5th grade academically. This poor academic advancement and lack of social opportunity with my non-disabled peers compel me to oppose the legislation currently being discussed. Unless a requirement compelling schools accepting these vouchers to provide classroom teaching to their students with disabilities along side their non-disabled peers is added, this bill would deny students with disabilities an education that is equal to that of their non-disabled peers because separate is not –and never can be – equal.

I want to share my own public education success story. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, I was enrolled in Berkmar High School as the first student in the Gwinnett County School System to be so enrolled who could not read or write in the “normal way”. I was on the Honor Roll more times than not, won the Algebra One Award as a Freshman, inducted into the National Honor Society, accepted into the Secondary Gifted Program, competed in inter-scholastic competition in the Berkmar Chess Club (15 wins and 10 losses over 2 years), did some advisory work for the Berkmar Student Council, ran for the Student Council Presidency (lost but got more than 40% of the vote against a popular football player), served as a Junior Marshal, and graduated in 1982 as an Honor Graduate.

Please remember that school is not just about academic learning, but social learning and problem solving go on there too. Friendships and values also develop in school. Students with disabilities and non-disabled students learn from each other in every classroom where they intermingle. Many parents of students with disabilities may honestly believe their child could never be a full participant in a class full of non-disabled students and use these vouchers to get their children with disabilities into segregated, or “self-contained” settings that more closely resemble day-care centers than real schools. This must not happen; kill this bill now, and kill all similar bills that come after it! Georgians with disabilities need more inclusion — not less!

Fred Earl Pinson, Jr. fpinson@comcast.net

By Janine

March 12, 2007 5:20 PM | Link to this

So Bridget It seems that your question for today has inspired lots of really thougtful postings from several points of view. You said that the question came up while you were working on a story re the legislature’s voucher proposal. After reading all of the posts and reflecting on my own experience as a teacher for 32 years, I hope that you will include some of these opinions in your article. Especially the insightful teachers’ opinions here as well as those of the parents of the sp. ed. students. Also….Please use your power as a journalist to ask….what good is a voucher for a private school whose tuition is twice that amount or more? And why does NCLB insist that students with special needs be assessed as if they were average students…for as RetiredTired remarked “If a child could do grade level work on a consistant basis then the child would NOT be in special ed!!

By decaturparent

March 12, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

OK, I gave up blogging for lent. I can’t take it anymore. I must…… say…… soooooomethiiiiiing.

AAAAAAAAAgggggggh!!!!!!!!!!! I don’t know which makes me crazier NCLB or living in Georgia. Who are the idiots in charge and why can’t they see that 99% of their constituents believe that their ideas are NUTS.

Whew, OK, now that I have sinned… back to lurking until Easter.

By thank you parents

March 12, 2007 5:26 PM | Link to this

Thank you, beautiful parents who have posted in this blog. If we had more concerned and sincere parents like you who would vounteer one hour every few months to merely sit through an entire class - any class - in their child’s school, to provide support to the teacher, a visible adult presence, and maybe a little positive attention to the kids, I think we would all see a huge decline in school discipline problems and more teaching getting done. (From a former public school teacher.)

By Peggy

March 12, 2007 5:49 PM | Link to this

Our society will be judged not by how we have treated the best and the brightest but how we have treated the least among us. It sounds like most people just want to throw special education children away, lock them behind a door. Who is school for? It’s for all children, not just the gifted or the ones patiently waiting until they’re old enough to legally quit. If it becomes “separate but equal” somebody is going to have to suffer and I doubt it will be the gifted.

By Leen

March 12, 2007 5:51 PM | Link to this

What is the definition of Special Ed? I have son with an IQ of 135, who happens to have a learning disability. He has an IEP, and is in a team taught classroom for subjects requiring a lot of reading, such as language arts and world history. He is a very bright, well behaved kid, but is he included in this Special Ed catagory? I would fight any attempt to move him out of the regular classroom. As it stands now, I’ve asked the school to stop making things so easy for him in those team taught classes. If he’s handed the notes, and given special review sessions before tests, how will he learn to do this on his own? I got the impression it was done to make sure he passes and doesn’t screw up the NCLB scores.

By SpecialDadSpecialKids

March 12, 2007 5:56 PM | Link to this

Please Bridget…..ask the question…help our desperation with NCLB. Why must severe kids be assessed as other kids - completely ignoring their needs? I am a single parent - my children’s teachers are wonderful people. They help me immeasurably. I hate to see them forced out of their work by the politicos. Trust me - special education teachers do it because they care and their hearts are with the children. The answers I keep getting about GAA and NCLB are that the schools are trying to meet mandates. My son requires 24/7 care….going to be 13 years old next month…his teachers and I are working so hard to get him potty trained. Potty trained - yes - I have been changing diapers for 13 years.

By catlady

March 12, 2007 6:18 PM | Link to this

Special ed teachers ARE wonderful. We need to LET THEM DO THEIR MAGIC WITH THEIR STUDENTS. Much of the time, that magic will best happen in a special ed classroom, not in an inclusion setting.

By Lisa B.

March 12, 2007 6:21 PM | Link to this

Technically, I guess Special Ed includes any child with special needs, which would include gifted children. When I think about inclusion though, I think about lower IQ children rather than children with learning disabilities. I can’t think of anytime a child with a 135 IQ and a learning disability should be put in a special ed class consisting of children with IQ’S below 70.

I think that subjecting children with IQ’s less than 70 to rigors of regular ed classrooms is a losing sitution for all those involved. The students receive algebra lessons rather than life skill lessons. I definitely agree SPED children need and benefit for socialization, and believe inclusion works well in PE, Art, Music, Home Ec, etc. But Algebra? No, I don’t think so. However, I definitely don’t ever want to go back to the days where the SPED kids (low IQ) rode separate school buses to a separate facility, never to be seen by the “regular” kids.

By T

March 12, 2007 6:24 PM | Link to this

I say follow least restrictive environment. Either situation can be beneficial depending on the child and there needs! Stop trying to impose one philosophy over the other they both have benefits.

By retired tired

March 12, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this

I ranted earlier about mainstreaming. Now I would like to agree with catlady. GOOD special ed. teachers are worth their weight in gold. I worked with teachers who made sure I read IEP’s immediately when a school year began. They worked with parents, regular classroom teachers and the middle school child. Always, the IEP and course objectives were reviewed and students were made aware of what was expected from them. When I had a good special ed. teacher working with me, I learned techniques from them that I could use with other students. As you might assume, eventually I became the “OLD” teacher on the hall, and younger teachers saw me as a role model. They were always surprised when I said I had learned something from them. Students with learning disabilities can be mainstreamed and do well. EBD students present so many problems, I feel that the negatives outweigh the positives. When EBD students are discussed, often it is assumed that all these students act out. Some EBD students are exactly the opposite. They are so withdrawn that eye contact is rare and one on one conversation is almost impossible. These students are prisoners of their disabilities and are often put in mainstream classes where other students “haze” them. Of course, teachers monitor such actions, but in a middle school class of thirty-two students, sometimes we miss something.

By SET

March 12, 2007 6:54 PM | Link to this

Be Warned. “Special Needs” students in CA is a euphamism for disturbed, violent, psychotic and heavily medicated “children” including those aged up to 18 who are both dangerous in some situations and very vulnerable in others.

I have a close associate who’s 10 year old has now been removed to a special school run by the county where he has 4 teachers for 10 children in his classroom. He is the only child in his class not living in a group home (yet). This child looks normal but is a suicide and homicide risk - and is on antipsychotics. He’s been mainstreamed to 5th grade but it’s just not safe for him or the other students. We have no illusions of his long term prospects.

When you hear “Special Ed” it’s not just dyxlexia. I have relatives who’ve taught Special Ed here. Among other things they had HIV positive grade school children in diapers who were not toilet trained… real exciting stuff.

Our schools do mainstream the learning disabled. But the psychotic and seriously disabled have their own schools on their own campuses. You do not want to throw them into a typical school because the staff their have a lower student/adult ratio and are not as skilled in bio-hazards, administration of pharmacology and blood tests, reading medical files & use of straight jackets. They need their own schools with specialized staff. They also have specialized bus services.

Brave New World!!

By Joey Schumacher

March 12, 2007 7:05 PM | Link to this

The best choice is a CHOICE! In America, you don’t set up only one system for so many and tell everybody they all have to take it. You set up an all-or-nothing fight! Parents, students, and teachers have all kinds of views and in the end it should be a decision made by a student with his parent. The teacher has to enjoy what he’s doing, the student has to ride the bus, and the parent has to feel good about what’s happening with their child. The legislator needs to approve funding so that they all have options.

By jim d

March 13, 2007 8:07 AM | Link to this

Some days I really must do a little work, so I don’t get to blog.

But I’m baaaaack,

Lisa b, an excellent point. I think that most people tend to forget that Gifted are considered special by the state.

As for all of the well thought out opinions that have been expressed here? Well folks, the only one that should really matter is that of the special needs children’s parents. Segregation? Inclusion? Those sound like choices that should belong to the people that truly understand their child’s abilities. In which case I suppose that would be the parents. *These vouchers may allow some of them to make that choice. Is that a bad thing? Personally, I don’t think so.

While I think most of the bloggers here have nothing but genuine concern for all students, I believe that at times our focus is a bit narrow and over-generalized. Each student is unwonted; each teacher unique, and every classroom different, matching them up may actually provide a means of providing these kids with the best opportunity to acquire a useful education.

The question we should be asking ourselves is if government relinquishing authority over the lives of these kids is worth the potential of providing them a means to become better citizens that can contribute more to society.

By Gael Waters

March 13, 2007 8:51 AM | Link to this

I believe that schools should serve ALL of the CHILDREN. As an educator who knows the importance that a teacher can have on the life of a student, I think it is the duty of the school and teacher to find what is right for EACH INDIVIDUAL. Deciding that it is all or nothing is not the right option. In my classes for my Masters and my specialist degrees, inclusion has really been pushed, but I ask myself, is this pushing for the school to look good or really FOR THE CHILDREN. But once I get in front of the class and begin teaching ALL of the students, especailly ones who have been in classes where the teacher stays behind the desk and plays pinball, I know that I’m making a difference.

By jim d

March 13, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

Gael,

Unfortunately Gael, schools can’t possably accomplish the feat of serving all of the students. Schools were never designed to actually do that. Public schools, much like the government that operates and sanctions them were and are designed to meet the majority needs.

By teach overseas

March 13, 2007 9:09 AM | Link to this

I have found that the inclusion push is really for the benefit of the parents of special needs kids. As long as parents can say to themselves, “she is in a regular 3rd grade classroom, she only needs a LITTLE extra help”, they feel that their child is not really all that bad off. The parents who want their children in a special class realize their child has some serious problems and needs special attention.

I have actually sat in on an IEP meeting with a parent of a seriously disabled child who sat back, crossed her arms and said: “all I know is that she is 9 years old and therefore she belongs with other 9 year olds.” This mother could not or would not accept the problems of her child. Too bad for her kid, she got what she wanted, not what her child needed. Whose needs were met that day?

By jim d

March 13, 2007 9:29 AM | Link to this

TOS,

Had you had the ability to look that parent in the eye and say “this is what we will offer” and had the parent the ability to choose to look elsewhere everyones needs might have been met. In the instance above though, no ones were. The only thing met there was a parents demands.

I only see choice as a means of strengthening education for all. Those that choose to stay in public schools and those that would opt to leave.

By Gael Waters

March 13, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this

Jim D

Takeit from someone who has been written about by students praising the in-class opportunities that have been given them. “EVERY CHILD CAN BE REACHED”. I say this with all of the gerth that is within me. When you are IN IT FOR THE STUDENTS, the ability to reach those students becomes much better. When those teachers who sit behind a desk drinking coffee (sometimes spilling it on student work or their own printer)put themselves before the children, those children are going to eventually fall through the cracks.

By jim d

March 13, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

Gael,

I tip my hat to teachers like you who are able to reach the slowest and still challenge the brightest. Y’all truly are a rare breed.

My point is that not all tachers are as dedicated or capable. That some must resort to not providing for the more gifted in order to attain the desired test results from the challenged.

That being said; I have no problem with allowing parents to make the call.

By OldSchool

March 13, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

Gael, I too am a very capable instructor. What I am NOT is trained in how to best serve special needs students. I have extensive experience with gifted students having taught in GHP for a number of years. Modifications for high achievers is a picnic compared with trying to adapt highly technical training with its requisite terminology and skills to students who cannot read, do simple math and have no concept of an inch. Yes, there are some basic tasks in an engineering firm that might be suitable for those students to perform but those tasks are becoming rarer and less necessary.

And yet those special needs students are included in my classes and I try to adapt instruction as best I can without lowering my expectations and those of industry. There is NO parapro coming to assist these students in my classes.

By Gael Waters

March 13, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

Jim D,

PARENTS???? They are the single largest problem with the children of this generation. My success is found with stripping students from the mental grasp that is held over them by their parents. If you can help students to begin thinking for themselves and not reflecting the hazardous thoughts of parents who know nothing about education, you have started the engine that moves students toward success. I think I will write a book….”How Teachers Get Students to Write about Them on the Georgia High School Writing Test”

By jim d

March 13, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

Well ok then, Gael.

Appears I didn’t need to offer a pat on the back—looks like you’re about to break your own arm doing it.

By Gael Waters

March 13, 2007 1:43 PM | Link to this

Jim D,

I am sorry. I meant that it would be a book of research from all teachers on their best strategies for making every student succeed. I would have a few thoughts of my own, but some of my collegues could join in as well. I just hope that the book would make other teachers as successful as I have been.

By jim d

March 13, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

Well Gael,

just a word to the wise.

If you wish to sell the book to parents for use as a tool you may find it necessary to be more specific and not use generalizations like “PARENTS”. You might try something like “some parents” or “often Parents”. I know how sensitive many teacher friends of mine are when I generalize “TEACHERS” and believe most parents would be sensitive to all being grouped together as well. Some of us really are doing an ok if not exceptional job and even the bad ones think they’re doing alright.

By Gael Waters

March 13, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

Dear sir or madam,

I, Gael Waters, only wrote the first entry on here. I assure you that the conceitedness that someone has tried to pass off for me is not genuine. Just ask anyone who knows me or has worked with me. Yes, I work tirelessly, but I am not going to “toot my own horn”, “pat myself on the back” or “kick my own trashcan”. I think of those long drives to Chattanooga where I got more training on how to become a more EFFECTIVE TEACHER (and got lost on 285!!), but I don’t try to act like I know everything. So, for the record, the other posts weren’t me. I was TOO BUSY touching AMERICA’s FUTURE to be in front of a computer during class.

CHILDREN FIRST.

Gael Waters Child Advocate