Get Schooled

By JustMe

March 9, 2007 8:25 AM | Link to this

What happens if all parents select the same school?

I don’t see how this will work…. but, good luck to them!

By lisafromnc

March 9, 2007 9:13 AM | Link to this

They do this in Asheville, NC and it works fine. Each elementary has a theme and parents can pick their top three. There are schools that emphasize core learning, arts, math/science, experiential learning, etc. The vast majority get their first pick and I’ve never heard of anyone getting below their second pick.

One thing they do is make sure that the schools are racially balanced to some extent. Some are more diverse than others, but they are all at least about 25% minority.

By marriettamom

March 9, 2007 9:28 AM | Link to this

OK, so I would guess that the gifted/talented school will be mostly white since the vast majority of g/t kids are white. How will that pan out when the NAACP catches wind of it?

The Marietta district is only about 20% white so it’s not going to look good to have a bunch of schools almost all minority and then one “g/t” school that is almost all white.

Also, how will they determine who gets into the g/t school in kindergarten? Will they test IQ in pre-K? If they don’t, will they kick kids out after 1st grade if they don’t score high enough on the CogAT?

I see this being a Justice Dept. problem. Is Marietta still under a deseg. order? Many districts still are and if Marietta still has a deseg. order this will be a problem.

By JustMe

March 9, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

lisafromnc…

I really wonder how they can make such miracles happen. Parents get their first or second pick of school AND the schools are ethnically balanced?

I would expect that parents would select the ‘best’ school (as rated by CRCT scores, reputation, etc.) and the other schools would get no students. Why would a parent select the school with the worst scores and reputation?

By Ernest

March 9, 2007 9:34 AM | Link to this

I like the idea, especially if it results in greater parental involvement. For a ‘one HS system’ along with a small attendance zone, it’s easier to attempt something like this. Both Marietta and Decatur City schools have something special.

To JustMe’s point, that would be a good problem to have. Thinking how ‘demand creates supply’, perhaps if one school was chosen because of the instructional programs offered, you would also offer it at another campus. Not knowing how far apart the schools are, you’d probably give priority to those in walking distance then make the other seats available on a first come first serve or lottery basis.

By jim d

March 9, 2007 9:36 AM | Link to this

Ya just gotta love when even talking about creating competion causes the entrenched public educational system to change for the better. I know it lifts my heart and brings a smile to my face.

ABSOLUTLEY IT WILL WORK!!

By SET

March 9, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this

All choice is good.

Having said that we can all see that the trend in USA public schools is only down. They are schools in name only. In fact they are Marxist Indoctrination Centers more interested in Diversity games than educational quality. Families “choose” to avoid this to the extent possible - they will run out of choices. Then they start moving to a “better” place. One day we will all have to stand and fight.

By lisafromnc

March 9, 2007 9:52 AM | Link to this

In Asheville, all of the elementary schools are pretty good. There is one that has slightly poorer performance, but they are all pretty much equal.

I don’t know exactly how they do it either. However, I lived there for 10 years (until last year when I moved here), and my kids went to Asheville schools so I know that it did work somehow.

Go to their website if you don’t believe me.

By alice

March 9, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this

I think Athens, Georgia does somthing similar and maybe Gainesville City Schools as well — both small systems.

I think that the Gift/talented school already exists in Marietta (maybe it opened this year) and it doesn’t start in K. Given the demorgraphics of Marietta and the fact that a child simply has to score on the 75th percentile or higher to get in, I expect it will be plenty diverse.

By JustMe

March 9, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

I think that if we are talking about only elementary schools, it MIGHT work. A teacher would have to be pretty bad to be unable to teach elementary content. So, the overall elementary schools SHOULD be generally the same (or am I missing something here?).

Once you get to middle and especially high schools, the content is more intense and I feel that the differences in schools become too great for this approach to work. As I pointed out, then ALL parents would likely request the same, BEST, school.

For example, let’s use the district in Savannah (I hope I recall these numbers correctly!). There is one outstanding high school, three average high schools, and one low performing high school. Guess what high school most parents would want their child to attend? Guess what high school would have almost no parents selecting it?

What a logistics nightmare!

By Lisa B.

March 9, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

I like the idea of school choice. I think there should be some rule however, that students stay in the school of choice the entire year. I’ve had a few students whose parents move them from class to class trying to find a place they get along, and can see those same parents moving their kids from school to school.

I do think there is lots of merit to the proposal.

By Stacey

March 9, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

mariettamom,

My son was given a verbal “readiness” test before entering Kindergarten this year. I’m honestly not sure how the results were used as he is in the class with kids who did not attend PreK and are not on the same academic level (per his teacher). He has since been tested and identified as gifted and spends part of his day in the Program Challenge classes. He is also Black.

I haven’t read the article yet but surely they most have some placement test to qualify. If we’ve learned nothing else from American Idol, most people are not nearly as talented as they/their friends/their families think!

By Peppermint Patty

March 9, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this

mariettamom - Most gifted and talented kids are white?! Excuse me a moment….

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! Aaahhhhahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Now that I’ve gotten that out of my system, riddle me this: Have you ever stepped foot outside of your obviously lily-white Marietta neighborhood??

Where in the world do you get your facts that “most gifted and talented students are white”? Please tell me… I’d love to read it.

There are 3 school alone in So. Dekalb County that are charter schools, 98% minority (which yes, includes Hispanic, Asian, AND African) and the consistently perform ABOVE the state average and outscore their white counterparts. All 3 schools have enrollment well over 500 and the majority of the staff have advanced degrees.

Get over yourself.

By Mariettamom

March 9, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

Peppermint… Well, whenever I hear a GA Dept. of Education speech on the matter, they are always talking about the dramatic difference between the number of white and minority children in gifted programs. They are always looking for ways to qualify more minority children so I guess I get my info from the Dept. of Education itself.

I do know that in FL the percentage of white kids that are gifted ID’d is 5.7% and for black kids it’s only 1.8%. I don’t know the exact percentage in GA but I would guess that it’s not to different.

I wasn’t bragging FYI, I was COMPLAINING. I think you misread the tone of my post. I don’t think one race is smarter than any other, I just know that there are issues with the gifted ID methods that tend to exclude minorities.

I don’t like the idea of a gifted/talented school in a district as small as Marietta b/c they cannot get the race percentages right. In DeKalb, they can do so because they have a huge pool of students to work with and they only take so many from each school in the county.

The Marietta district based on the DOE website was 20% white last year and was 6.7% gifted. The gifted magnet there is 49% white and 58% gifted. You do the math.

So, Peppermint… I am against it not for it. I think it’s just a way to segregate schools. And FYI, I am biracial so why don’t you get over yourself.

By erica

March 9, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

Peppermint patty… City of Marietta is not lily white. It is mostly Hispanic and Black. You are thinking about East Cobb. Maybe you need to step out of So. DeKalb a little more.

By jim d

March 9, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this

FYI, Patty

Caucasians 71.2% 81.4%

Blacks 16.2% 8.4%

Hispanics 9.1% 4.7%

Asians 2.5% 5.0%

Sources: Zappia, ; Machado,.

By SET

March 9, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this

Peppermint Patty: The portion of your response to mariettamom that was insulting and personalized is unworthy of public discourse and detracted from trying to read and absorb the points you had to make.

It’s hard to take writers seriously when they indulge in sniping at the personalty of the others, or even respond to direct insults. Whenever we’ve seen this before on this blog the writer was usually a student who could not keep up with the intellectual level of the debate. It shows quickly.

By jsmom

March 9, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this

It will be interesting to see how that works for City of Marietta. I hope that it works and that other school systems try it- not holding my breath though!

BTW, I am still giggling over the “Lily White Marietta” comment… Maybe the East side, but where I am on the south side not so much.

By Ernest

March 9, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

JustMe:

This is partially why DeKalb is looking to ‘subdivide’ it’s school system into geographic regions. By creating a ‘manageable’ sized region, you have the flexibility of offering choice programs within the region, hopefully eliminating cross county routes. Will everyone be happy, NO. It does attempt to provide more choice with sensitivity regarding transportation.

To your questions regarding how to ‘balance enrollments’, you could implement desirable choice programs in the other schools. I’d like to believe that at the end of the day, most are concerned about the quality and rigor of the instruction. Their perceptions play a part of their selection also.

By V for Vendetta

March 9, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

Pep,

Get some facts and rejoin the conversation. I’m coming in late but this idea interests me. Will it work? Well, I can’t say that I think it will, but not because it’s without merit. I just don’t think that the public school system can stand a change like this. I think we’re all in for some kind of natural disaster or something, sent down by the evil facist gods of public education.

I’ll tell you what, if it starts raining frogs in Marietta I am moving out of this state!

JimD is right about choice, it’s never a bad thing. Just cross your fingers and hope the logistics work themselves out. And while you’re at it, hope that it trickles into the neighboring school systems as well.

By lisafromnc

March 9, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this

Well, again it works fine in Asheville. They are similarly sized systems though Asheville has a lower minority population - I don’t thing that matters though.

People in Asheville love it so I don’t see why it wouldn’t work here… unless it is a Georgia thing.

I hope it works in Marietta b/c choice among public schools is certainly a better alternative to the whole voucher… public to private thing.

By V for Vendetta

March 9, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

lisafromnc,

unfortunately a lot of the stupid crap that happens in this state is a result of “it’s a Georgia thing”.

I wish that wasn’t the case, but… .

By Lisa B.

March 9, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

In Dougherty County (Southwest Georgia) all four high schools have been turned into magnet schools. Depending on interests, the students go to whatever high school they chose. The schools are Applied Science, Academic, Technical/Vocational, and Music, Art, Drama. All the schools have college prep courses in addition to their areas of focus. The high schools have been in the implementation stages of this conversion the last couple of years, and still have some kinks to work out, but the drop out rate has decreased, and academic achievement has increased, according to the stats. I do not teach in that school system, but watch with interest as middle and elementary schools are converted to magnet schools.

By teach overseas

March 9, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

The problem with competition is that in a competition, somebody is the loser. Somewhere along the line, there is going to be a “loser” school. It will become a dumping ground for lousy teachers, unidentified special needs, behaviorial problems and pathetic parents who don’t care enough to get their kids out of that school.

Would this create better schools for all the rest? Sure!

Would the rest of us deep down in our little hearts really care? Probably not.

Competition works in the business world. But if a business fails, it doesn’t really matter. It does matter when a school fails.

By JustMe

March 9, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

Earnest….

DeKalb County has had “divided” sections for many years. There is the north section and the south section. They have separate “bosses” for the principals, etc.

Also, I am not concerned with special “programs” offered in high schools. IMHO, they are pretty much bogus - and I am speaking as a teacher that teaches in an IB school that also offers AP!!!! I am concerned about the normal, every day, high school.

Even if there was a low performing school per test scores that offered tons of desirable programs (Arts, Dance, whatever), what parent would send their kid there???????? What good is the program if that kid cannot pass the GHSGT?????

The only exception to this problem that I see are those schools with outstanding/winning sports. Athletes would want to go their at the sacrifice of their academics because high school kids think that will all be in the NBA or NFL. And, there will be a few ‘other’ kids that want to go there just to be a part of the winning sports.

Lisa B. -

Beware of Dougherty Co. high school test scores. They cheat and are going to be in big trouble with the DOE….

By catlady

March 9, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this

Could someone from Athens comment on how/if the program Clarke County Schools implemented in 1995 has worked, where parents named their top 3 elementary schools? I left there then and have not heard anything, seen any explosions, etc, but at the time there was fierce debate. How has it played out?

By Lisa B.

March 9, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

Overseas- That’s a good point. As I said, I watch with interest to see how the magnet program works out.

By gigi

March 9, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

Athens-Clarke did a controlled school choice once upon a time. Maybe they still do. Let’s say the county was 57%black, 5% hispanic and 38% white, each school would have that percentage of black, hispanic and white “seats”. Within those parameters school choice was honored. Most people ended up choosing the school closest to their home if they could get into it given the mandated racial balance.

By Lisa B.

March 9, 2007 4:39 PM | Link to this

Just Me,

I have wondered how some illiterate 4th grade students I’ve gotten out of neighboring school systems passed the 3rd grade CRCT. When they come to my school unable to read, they inevitably fail the 4th grade CRCT. We can’t get the kids caught up in one school term, and I am definitely not throwing my teaching certificate away by “helping” kids on the test. No way.

By fed up

March 9, 2007 5:17 PM | Link to this

Teach Overseas…

That’s why competition does work. If a parent (black, white, Hispanic, whatever - there are losers in all races) doesn’t give enough of a rip to even look into which school to send their kid to, do you think that just sending that kid to a better school will make a difference? The kids (most likely) still will be poorly raised and problems to those kids who are there to learn. The parents won’t bother to come to conferences and they won’t stress the importance of an education. The kids will probably fail regardless.

Why should these families have a high performing school if no one in their family gives enough of a rip to get off the couch? Afterall, we all know that they are perfectly capable of getting off the couch to file for welfare/food stamps, etc. If education doesn’t matter as much as their other gov’t entitlements… well, so be it. We can’t save everyone.

A full choice system in each district with a lottery where the school is over-selected would work perfectly. If you use a lottery system, you don’t have to worry about diversity because selection is random among those who WANT THEIR KIDS AT THE SCHOOL. If there is a lack of diversity, it is because minority parents didn’t want the diversity. If they want diversity it is there for the choosing. No more buying your way into a “wealthy white” district.

This choice system might not be perfect, but at least it would give choice to poor and/or minority parents who do give a rip but don’t have the means to live in East Cobb or Decatur. It may not save the ones who really, truly shouldn’t have had kids in the first place, but it would be worlds better than the system we have now.

By MariettaTeacher

March 9, 2007 5:28 PM | Link to this

I teach in the Marietta City system (high school). I have some concerns about how Dr. Lembeck’s proposal will be implemented and monitored to ensure equal opportunity for access to all of the “choice” schools. If these concerns can be adequately addressed, I would support the proposal. If you read the article and the other information available on the MCS website, you will see that parents will be required to provide transportation if they choose to send a child to a school that is not in their own residence zone. This alone will deter many parents from even attempting to take advantage of the choice program. We have trouble getting parents to come to open house, parent conferences, and other activities of interest. I doubt that many parents will be able or willing to drive their child to a school across town EVERY day. HOWEVER … At least the choice will BE there! Why not give it a try? We have a few hundred students at the high school whose parents actually pay tuition to attend MHS from out of district for our IB program (and let’s not kid ourselves … also for athletics), so if families and parents want to move into the city system to take advantage of “choice” elementary schools, we will be happy to take them. But ultimately, the choice will be up to the parents. We close our announcements at MHS every morning with the saying, “Make it a great day, or not .. the choice is yours.” I believe that the elementary choice program is somewhat of an extension of that philosophy.

MCS has tried to stay ahead of the curve when it comes to initiatives, trends, or even fads in educational policy. When the new trends become the required policy of the day, we are already familiar with how to implement them effectively. I think that Dr. Lembeck and the MCS board should be given credit for thinking ahead (Hello, Mr. Lieutenant Governor?), but should also accept the blame if this idea falls flat on its face.

I welcome questions about the Marietta City system on this blog today. I have read several things thus far that are inaccurate about the system and its student population.

Thanks! I enjoy the dialogue. It was quite interesting to see my own system receiving the sole attention from the core bloggers on this site.

By Lee

March 9, 2007 6:30 PM | Link to this

Read between the lines, parents are trying to get their children out of the cesspool and into classes with other children with similar abilities and aptitudes. Sometimes that means gifted classes. Sometimes that means charter schools or magnet schools.

In our case, that meant private school.

By JustMe

March 12, 2007 9:40 AM | Link to this

Lee,

I think that “cesspool” is rather harsh. This “cesspool” is truely representative of all of our society. If you want to “save” your child from the “cesspool” now, what will you do when they become an adult?

Won’t it be far better for your child to learn how to operate within the “cesspool”?

If a public school with this “cesspool” was able to offer challenging academic classes, why not allow your child that opportunity?

By Ernest

March 12, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

JustMe:

Just getting back from your comment on Friday @ 3:16p. Point taken however do consider you teach at one of the HSs many in the county consider ‘desirable’ from an academic standpoint. At the end of the day, it always gets back to the level of parental involvement there is at each school. The ‘hope’ is that by offering ‘choice’ programs at schools that don’t have a tradition/history of higher levels of parental involvement, it ‘might’ mix up the group of parents who might serve as role models. Some might call this ‘social engineering’ for parents however you still hope students get the rigor with options they need.

By AR

March 12, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this

Clarke County schools have almost completely dropped their school choice system. The only choice is now between three to four elementary schools in one of four zones by where you live. The middle schools and the high schools are zoned enrollment. Transportation costs were the biggest downfall for the program. There were buses from at least five elementary schools, two middle schools and one high school coming into our neighborhood alone. I think now that if you want your child to go to a school outside of your attendance zone you must bear the burden of transportation. The CCSD program began because of a lawsuit when it was discovered that with the court-ordered busing to make the schools racially equal out of 496 kids being bused out of their neighborhood to another school, only 4 were white. So they came up with the choice system. The schools were assigned students according to a racial formula. Originally the plan was that they would develop magnet schools or each school was to make themselves individual enough to be competitive. That never really happened. Virtually everyone got their first choice with the elementary schools, or at least their second choice. But the middle schools were a problem. On the west side of town there was one preferred middle school close to the center of town and a new one that had been built way out of town. Not enough people wanted the further away school and when the school system filled up the intown school and assigned the rest to the out of town school, a lot of people, primarily white families either moved to Oconee County or put their children in private schools. Prior to 1990 CCSD was majority white, now the white population of the district is about 25-30 percent white, even though Athens-Clarke County is majority white. The school choice program had a profound effect on our district.