Get Schooled

By KA

March 5, 2007 8:40 AM | Link to this

In my county, Gwinnett, the school system has been playing catch up to attempt to serve our booming population for the last 15 to 20 years! The Gwinnett County Commission is the body that encouraged the growth, encouraged the road building, encouraged the subdivisions, and never once, as far as I know, did the County Commission coordinate with the school system as to planning for the boom. So, at least in Gwinnett, it would be ridiculous to also burden the school system with road building, when it was the Co. Commissioners who invited all these new residents to begin with!

By JustMe

March 5, 2007 8:48 AM | Link to this

I kinda agree with this legislation. School systems need to consider all factors when selecting building sites. Before this, they just assummed that the DOE would provide the roads, etc.

Now, site selection will have to include road access. Is this really so bad? I don’t think so.

Any school system should be able to select a building site that already has road access, if desired.

Realize that I am saying this as a teacher, knowing that school funds are already tight!

By Rick in Lawrenceville

March 5, 2007 8:54 AM | Link to this

The county commissioners in Gwinnett have had a policy of residential development without building road infrastructure or attracting businesses to provide LOCAL jobs for county residents.

Therefore we have to slog through overcrowded roads and interstates to reach our jobs within the perimeter. Schools budgets are stretched to accomodate all the new students. The new schools with all of their buses only further slow traffic on roads.

Failure to enforce immigration laws have led to a decline in the quality of our education as our teachers must now spend more time and resources to bring along those students who do not speak English and whose parents do not speak English.

As parents move out of neighborhoods in search of better schools, older residential neighborhoods are in decline as property values decrease and more homes become rental properties housing illegal immigrants who are not maintaining these properties.

Local law enforcement will not lock up uninsured and unlicensed drivers who add to the overcrowding of our roads and causing insurance rates to increase.

By Jim in Marietta

March 5, 2007 8:58 AM | Link to this

R-E-L-A-X! Nobody is going to force the school system to pay for infrastructure just because a bill has been introduced to do so. Most politicians aren’t that stupid. And even if by some outside chance the bill did pass guess who would still be paying for the infrastructure at the end of the day. Can I see some hands? That’s right boys and girls, it’s still the TAXPAYERS! Never forget where the money for government programs good or bad comes from. Next subject.

By KA

March 5, 2007 9:11 AM | Link to this

Uh, Jim, I think we know that we taxpayers would still be footing the bill. I think the point of the bill is that the burden of planning, building, and maintaining the roads, bridges, signage, etc. would shift from the County to the school systems, which don’t have the people or resources in place to do roadbuilding! Do I want the supertintendant of schools to be responsible for the roadways? That would be NO!

By JustMe

March 5, 2007 9:16 AM | Link to this

Gwinnett County seems to have rather large problems that need to be solved. For example, the voters and taxpayers need to INSIST that the police enforce the laws (illegal immigrants, uninsured motorists, etc.). The voters and taxpayers need to INSIST that the Building Commissioner stop issueing building permits like handing out candy to a baby!!!

The problems of Gwinnett County are not the same problems of a rural County.

By KA

March 5, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this

JustMe, Well, we got rid of our Co. Commission Chairman Wayne Hill, but we apparently were fooled into thinking the new crop of commissioners would work to put the brakes on the subdivisions and actually resolve our infrastructure problems, and plan ahead for growth. Gwinnett County was largely rural just 20 years ago, and half rural as recently as 10 years ago. Our problems can happen to any county that sees unfettered business growth along with rampant subdivision approvals. Georgia governments appear to be unable to plan for growth along with infrastructure needs at the same time. The politicians approve any growth, then address the roads, water and sewer needs, power needs, schools, fire stations and police needs later. It could very well happen in your rural county the same as it did in Gwinnett.

By JustMe

March 5, 2007 9:45 AM | Link to this

KA -

You state, “the politicans approve any growth, then address the raods, water and sewer needs, power needs, schools, fire stations and police needs later.”

Why do you voters and taxpayers allow this approach? Why don’t you go to their meetings and insist upon a change? If those “new crop” of folks don’t listen, then vote others that will listen.

This horrible approach is currently being used in the City of Atlanta. There is run-away growth with builders building highrise condos where the infrastructure simply will not be able to handle the volume. The City will be in big trouble once these mammoth buildings are complete and the condos are filled with residences. The City is stupid. But, I always thought that the problem was unique to the crooked politicans in the City of Atlanta, taking under-the-table payments from the builders.

Has Gwinnett County simply followed the ill-fated path of the City of Atlanta.

By deegee

March 5, 2007 9:59 AM | Link to this

Development happens. It should happen responsibly and that is what the county commission is there to do. The county receives tax revenue from their citizens and developers, and they should spend it wisely on infrastructure. The problem with us is that infrastructure improvements aren’t very interesting to the taxpayers and politicians don’t campaign on the number of bridge reinforcements, water treatment facilities and intersections that were built under their watch. They prefer to pander to voters like Rick in Lawrenceville and JustMe that want to know how their local representatives feel about bricklayers and yardmen that are working here without papers. Remember that someone wasn’t exactly happy to see you coming regardless of where you settled.

The problem with traffic and the schools is

1: the ridiculous number of high school kids that drive to school.

2: the parents that line up in their cars with their engines running 30 minutes before the kids are released. They block access to the roads for people that need to go somewhere. Why can’t the parents park their cars and wait for their kids to get out of school? Then the teachers can supervise as the kids meet their parents and walk to their car and leave the school grounds. What would be so bad about that?

By V for Vendetta

March 5, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

Rick and Justme are right about the growth. Too long has the Gwinnett Co. Commission run rampant encouraging the development that has led to a large illegal population and apartment complexes in nearly every single school district.

The issue here deegee is that the development is NOT happening responsibly. The booming population in Gwinnett has been invited in with little concern as to how it would affect the overall wellfare of the county. As a result, the county is heading in the same direction as such other wonderful places to live such as Dekalb and Clayton.

Rick is right about the declining neighborhoods. My old neighborhood where I grew up is now full of rental properties, vandalism, and drugs. The schools in largely hispanic areas are declining as the drugs, gangs, and teenage mothers monopolize the resources that were onced used to educate. The schools not affected by these symptoms are in areas where the money and tenacity of the residents keeps these things at bay.

Anyone who mentions these things is automatically labled a believer in “white flight”. Nevermind the fact that it’s all true and supported by hard data.

Welcome to the new reality people. Forget the roads, that’s the least of our problems.

By KA

March 5, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

JustMe, I have gone to meetings over the years, and I have worked to get the commission politics changed. The fact is that most of the people of Gwinnett liked the growth, and ignored the problems, so they kept re-electing the same people. The commissioners and Chamber of Commerce just couldn’t say no to their friends, the landwoners sold land at good profits and developers who made their profits, putting up massive subdivisions and then moved on. They got a break in not having to cover the accompanying infrastructure costs up front. And as new people poured into the county they voted those same people back into office too, because they were happy with what they had. JustMe it’s the way of Georgia politicians, not just those in Atlanta or Gwinnett.

By JustMe

March 5, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this

V -

White flight compounds these problems. Any people (white or otherwise) should not run away from these problems, but work towards solutions. This means forcing the police to enfore laws. This means holding politicans accountable for run-away growth without parallel improvements in infrastructure.

Water and sewers and bridges are not interesting to taxpayers? Wait until the water mains break and you are without water for a week! Wait until the rainwater run off backs up the sewage onto your street! These are happening in Atlanta now, yet they are still approving these mega-condo highrise buildings.

By JoJo

March 5, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

14 more crappy schools

By Teacher Teacher

March 5, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

Even if school systems did have to pay for infrastructure, they’d probably just get the money by ending instructional programs like music, art, and world languages. Rather than be economical and frugal with construction projects (look at Clayton County’s recent multi-million dollar boondoggle) or flush administrator-do-nothings from the ivory towers of County Offices, they’d just cut teachers.

By finallyintown

March 5, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this

Gwinnettians… your only choice is to move intown where the schools are actually great and getting better and sky high property values and taxes ensure that they will continue to get better for years to come.

You get what you pay for.

We moved intown a year ago and the difference in our son’s education in amazing. Plus we can be assured that our neighborhood isn’t going to be third world any time soon. No investor in their right mind would buy a house in VaHi or Buckhead or Decatur to rent Section 8.

Morningside, Smith, Lin, Decatur, Grady, Inman, Brandon, Jackson, Sutton… these are the neighborhoods and schools to be looking at.

Get out of Gwinnett while the gettin’ is still good.

By JustMe

March 5, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

KA -

Then we deserve what we get….. problems included!

By V for Vendetta

March 5, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

JustMe, I admire your convictions. I really hope that you are the one who is right. It is hard to be positive in light of such overwhelming odds. I applaud you for staying strong.

By mel

March 5, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

The schools shouldn’t be on the hook for these costs. Corrupt county commissioners get paid off by builders and developers then change zoning laws allowing mass developments of houses, requiring more schools. The county should pay up or quit allowing all of this development.

By Ernest

March 5, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

This legislation should be watched. I understand March 27th is ‘crossover’ day and there has not been much activity on this since it was introduced in January. It should not surprise anyone that the municipal government associations are behind this.

At the end of the day, we need greater cooperation between our local BoC and BoE officials. As indicated, at the end of the day the infrastructure improvements will be made. The question is whose budget will fund this.

By EW

March 5, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this

Get Mexico to pay for them, afterall it’s their people we are educating to help facilitate in the Spanish take over of the once United States of Amercia.

By Bill Kecskes

March 5, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

HB 187 is a sneaky attempt by County Commissions and the DOT to unfairly shift the financial burden of building roads and highways onto local boards of education. Schools boards are in the business of building classrooms and educating children……not building roads and highways!

By JustMe

March 5, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

EW -

Here is a thought….. why don’t all of us US citizens move to Mexico! We can start fresh - kick out their government and start new without corrupt politicans and all of these layers of government!

Won’t that be sweet revenge?

By RJH

March 5, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

The problem with the Entire Atlanta area and every aspect of the way of life in this region is that there is no transit. Development and roads become a problem only where roads are the only option for your daily travels. In New York, children get to school by use of the Public Tranist System and school busses are reserved for Elementary schools, but most elementary schools are within walking distance of its’ students. Until Atlanta realizes that more transit doesn’t equal more crime, but better quality of life, Atlanta will never improve. Have all the arguments you want nothing will be solved without transit.

By Sarah

March 5, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

I would never live in Gwinnett or any other border town such as Juarez, Tijuana…or any of the others.

By Ernest

March 5, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this

RJH:

You are correct! It’s unfortunate that we don’t have the public transportation infrastructure like NY. Along this same lines, I wonder if the tSPLOST legislation that is being discussed now will consist more of laying asphalt rather than a comprehensive solution that includes an investment in public transportation. IMO, this is the one of the things that would keep the metro area from being a GREAT city.

Back on topic, doesn’t it make you wish that ‘impact fees’ for transportation infrastructure and education were assessed on those building new housing developments? That would have solved many of the problems we are facing today!

By deegee

March 5, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Interesting comment, finallyintown. I remember when the schools your are lauding were at the bottom of the heap, (Morningside, Smith, Lin, Decatur, Grady, Inman, Brandon, Jackson, Sutton), and the Gwinnett county schools were the ones that everyone wanted.

Infrastructure is one of the few things that government has an absolute responsibility to provide. There are funds to pay for it as long as installation and maintenance is managed properly. If politicians would stop throwing money away on huge tax breaks for developers, unnecessary perks for the politically appointed and connected, and feel-good public works projects we would have something. Shirley Franklin aside, when was the last time you heard a politician campaign on the infrastructure projects that were approved during his/her watch?

By JustMe

March 5, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

deegee,

What happened with those “intown” schools is that the people that wanted to live there decided to make a difference and change things for the better, rather than to run from the problems. This can happen any where if people make this choice and not run.

By deegee

March 5, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

well, JustMe, I don’t disagree that people can make a difference. However, I think that what happened in the case of the intown schools came more as a result of gentrification than anything else. There were alot of people that wanted to live intown but couldn’t afford it anymore and had to leave. Many of them went to retirement homes and many went to the suburbs. Those that can afford to live intown invest in their childrens’ education and can afford to send their kids to private school.

By catlady

March 5, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

Until the county governments give the school systems the power to dictate development patterns, zoning, etc., the county has to pick up the infrastructure expenses. Schools are not built where there is no one living! And school systems do not get to decide where another Bridgemill or Eagles Landing, or mega-apartments, are built.

In addition, most schools are waayy too big for maximum student achievement as it is.

By JustMe

March 5, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

deegee -

You said, “Those that can afford to live intown invest in their childrens’ education and can afford to send their kids to private school.”

If those intown public schools improved, and all of those people did send their kids to private schools, then how did those intown schools improve? Magic?

No. The people that live there do not all send their children to private schools. They chose to improve their local public school and make it work. There was a great indept story in the AJC last year about a parent that did just that for Morningside Elementary - check it out. This type of thing is what needs to happen every where.

By fulldawg

March 5, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

Just another nail in the coffin of publc schools that the dear Republicans seem to want to legislate out of existence.

“No voucher left behind”

By Fulton County Mom

March 5, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

Do all these teens really need to park at the HS? The parking area used for them could surely fund something.

This should be simple if it is in the school’s property line (any Land Surveryor worth their salt can do this) then the School should pay. If it is outside the property line then the City/County should foot the bill.

Also, kill HOPE (its an entitlement measure) and put that money in the PSS. Seperate the kids by ability (ok, so we fund a few socialogists to help Susie and Billy’s esteem for being in a lower reading level)…and pull our scores out of the toliet!

By deegee

March 5, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this

Of course not all intown parents with money and resources send their kids to private schools but they do have a choice. There are alot of nice things that happen when people are free to make their own choices. When people actually vote for candidates that best represent their district nice things happen.

By 30 Year Teacher

March 5, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

The Gwinnett Talk blog is asking the question “What qualities should teachers have?”. I think if many respond candidly it could be an eyeopener and also a worthy topic for this Get Schooled blog.

By V for Vendetta

March 5, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this

Fulton Mom -

I love your idea of killing the HOPE scholarship and pouring that money directly into the schools. All the HOPE has been good for is rampant grade-inflation and schools patting themselves on the back (we graduated X amount of HOPE scholars this year!)

It’s about time that money actually started helping EDUCATION. Or a raise for teachers. Just kidding … sort of.

By AM

March 5, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this

How do they figure traffic problems = school funding?? Which is really property tax payer funded. Maybe they could tax the money the Illegals send home instead - since most of them suck off the system and wont have to pay the now proposed tax increase to the screwed legal American Tax Payers. Why does the govenment ALWAYS do and propose the wrong thing? Vote out the sorry $#@!&*(#.

By finallyintown

March 5, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this

I think some of you hit it on the head. Intown has become so affluent that a large percentage of the parents in the districts I named can in fact afford to send their kids to private schools if they need to. They choose to send them to their local public school b/c they feel it provides a comparable education. They also volunteer like crazy in the schools to make sure that this is the case.

When they no longer feel that the local public education is comparable, they can pull their kids with ease. The schools in these areas know that this is the case so they get the job done. I’d pull my son in a minute if I thought he was getting an inferior education.

Schools in less affluent area know that they have a “captive audience,” so they don’t give a rip.

This is off topic btw… sorry.

By DJ

March 5, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

GREAT IDEA - MAYBE WE SHOULD ALSO MAKE GREEDY REAL ESTATE DEVELOPERS PAY FOR INFRASTRUCTURE IMPROVEMENTS, TOO - INSTEAD OF HAVING THEM COME IN, BUILD A 500 HOME SUBDIVISION, AND THEN LET THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT DEAL WITH THE INFRASTRUCTURE NEEDS AFTER THE FACT.

ONCE AGAIN - REPUBLICAN-STYLE SOCIAL DARWINISM IN ACTION. ONE HAND LETS DEVELOPERS DO WHATEVER THEY WANT WITH NO ACCOUNTABILITY OR OVERSIGHT, WHILE THE OTHER HAND ENGAGES IN A FULL-SCALE FRONTAL ASSAULT TO DISMANTLE THE PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION SYSTEM (ANYONE WHO CALLS THEM “GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS” SPENDS TOO MUCH TIME LISTENING TO THAT SIMPLISTIC RIGHT-WING APOLOGIST NEAL BOOR-ING).

By JustMe

March 5, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

finallyintown,

I think that it is harsh and unfair for you to say that underperforming schools “don’t give a rip.”

The teachers I know in these types of schools are professionals and really do loose sleep over their students. They try multiple things/anything to get their students motivated to do better.

By jim d

March 5, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

After scanning through the above posts I’ve come up with one conclusion.

Just me doesn’t live in nor does he/she understand the politics of Gwinnett County.

But on to Bridget’s question “consider alleviating the development that’s forcing systems to build new schools in the first place?

Not yes but HELL YES! as long as local politicans can approve massive housing projects for their developer friends that contributed heavely to their election campaigns the problem will persist. If they are going to place the burden of providing infrastruture on the schools then they must provide a means for paying for it. Will they give the schools the taxes they currently collect? Will they allow the schools to collect a tax on the developers to pay for infrastrucure expansion to meet the growing needs? Well NO. There are no provisions for that in this bill. So where’s the fundinmg to come from?

By jim d

March 5, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this

ON THE OTHER HAND,

When local Gov. (BOC) starts listening to the schools and quits allowing building in saturated areas without facilities to provide for the predicted influx of students and the state no longer forces school systems to build to comply with other state laws regarding providing an education and how much growth they can allow for in new construction.(it’ll never happen)

Then by all means place the burden back on the schools.

By JustMe

March 5, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

jim d-

Although I do not live or work in Gwinnett County, I do live where that phenomena has been occurring for some time - the City of Atlanta (although I do not work there). And, I do fully understand the dynamics of this.

What you (and some others) are doing is talking in circles, blaming various agencies. This helps nothing, but it does allow for this mess to continue.

What I am and have been proposing is a sort of revolution - you should like that! The people of Gwinnett need to say that enough is enough and go in mass to the meetings to demand accountablility for the explosive growth without infrastructure preparation. “Smart growth” is what it is called and it is when the officials plan ahead enough to prepare a community to support the influx of new citizens.

Most of the State of GA does “dumb growth”. This is when builders do whatever they want and then the infrastructure tries to do ‘catch up.’ The City of Atlanta is a perfect example of ‘dumb growth.’ They have allowed builders to throw up these mega-condo high-rises all along Peachtree Road without expanding water supply or sewage/waste pipes or electrical service (much less cable TV). The traffic is horrible because they have not realized that just one of those mega-condo may contain 100 units that translates up to 200 extra vehicles. It is called ‘dumb growth’ for a reason…..

By joe

March 5, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this

By catlady

March 5, 2007 6:59 PM | Link to this

justme, I think “dumb growth” is too kind a phrase for the kind of growth that is going on in most northern Georgia counties. (I cannot type on this blog the word I would use, but read Jim Wooten’s blog and see the kind of words his bloggers use, and you get the idea.)

By jim d

March 6, 2007 9:09 AM | Link to this

OH my, just me,

It appears you’ve mistaken me for an uninvolved tax payer.

UNRECHT!