Get Schooled

By V for Vendetta

March 1, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

Georgia is always looking for a “miracle” solution to our education woes. The problem is that people actually buy into the possibility of a quick fix. You can’t turn the Titanic on a dime. Similarly, it will take a while to turn this beast in the right direction.

I remember when I was in high school we had graduation coaches too. They were called PARENTS.

By HS Teacher Too

March 1, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

Oh, for goodness’ sake, I could identify kids who are in danger of not graduating!

Will a graduation coach really put food on the table, make mom and/or dad be both present and caring? Will they make it so junior doesn’t have to shield his brothers and sisters from the fighting, the crazy life? Will they make it so that the kids don’t have to work ‘til 11pm just to help the family out?

More educrat b.s., if you ask me.

By OldSchool

March 1, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this

Our grad coach is also a football coach…bonus…

…right?

By catlady

March 1, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this

I could identify the at risk students in kindergarten. This is a dumb waste of money, or a perk for someone connected. And how do we decide it works, with no data available to support it? It is malarkey!

By JustMe

March 1, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this

Perdue is such a politican. He has no clue about what he speaks.

Our graduation coach does not identify anyone. She sits in her office and waits for teachers to knock on her door to give her a list of failing students.

How die Perdue measure this so that we are “leading the nation?” What data does he have to back up such a claim? What an IDIOT!!!

By KA

March 1, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this

I’m with catlady! Teachers know who is at risk in the elementary grades, and steps should be taken early to help these kids. High School is too late. And BTW, the reason many kids are failing is because of the POOR READING SKILLS! Help the poor readers and you will cut the drop-out rates dramatically!

By jim d

March 1, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

I’d be very interested in seeing how they may have changed how they calculate graduation rates before commenting on if this program will actually change anything.

My observations of how Gwinnett County has claimed to improve education tends to cause me to question the methods of calculation rather than the sucess of a given program. Since the state seems to often learn from the scull-dulgery used in Gwinnett, by Alvin and his chipmunks(our BOE), to convince parents everything is just peachy.

By HS Teacher Too

March 1, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

jim d, if anyone in Gwinnett had any sound background in even elementary statistics, 99% of the “achievements” they claim would be thrown out. They compare apples and oranges all the time, assign causation where none can be assigned … I long ago stopped trying to understand their logic. Their logic is simply to dress up a bunch of excel charts (by the way, one of the worst statistical packages out there), axes incorrect, etc., etc., and sell it to other equally math-inept folks who buy it all, hook, line … etc., etc.

By JustMe

March 1, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

Guys, that doesn’t only happen in Gwinnett.

In my school, they made the teachers sit through an hour and a half lecture on how to make african-american boys pass high school. They presented statistics on their low passing rates and said that teachers should make special allowances for african-american males.

However, they calculated the rates wrong. In fact, the african-american boys were statistically no worse off than the white boys, asian boys, asian girls, or the african-american girls. The only group that was “different” was the white girls and they were doing much better.

Trying to be politically correct, I waited until the end of their presentation to point out their mistake. Needless to say, we haven’t had another one of those presentations since.

By V for Vendetta

March 1, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this

Jim, good point about the stats. With creative manipulation, you can make statistics say just about anything. Too bad most of Gwinnett swallows it hook, line, and sinker.

By Teacher

March 1, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this

Graduation Coaches are a joke. The counsolers are the ones that have and have always tried to keep the students on track for graduation. Another counselor in the schools would work but not some person(coach etc.) that knows someone and gets a do nothing job will help anyone. Put in another counselor that is trained to do just what the grad coach is suppose to do. Get rid of the grad coaches now before we waste another dime.

By Teacher

March 1, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

P.S. I bet if you gave the present Grad coaches a test 50% of them could not tell you want is required to graduate in Goergia.

By jim d

March 1, 2007 1:46 PM | Link to this

OK, so it would appear most of us are in agreement.

Grad Coaches ‘Leading the Nation’ are leading us further downhill. It is nothing more than a “Smoke and Mirrors Miracle”

By jim d

March 1, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

Appears there’s a bit more to this story than what we are being told. So “Now For The Rest Of The Story”

http://www.gpee.org/parameters/gpee/uploads/tracking%20issue%206%20final%202.pdf

By jim d

March 1, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

I suppose Sonny thinks a certficate of attendance is equal to a High School Diploma.

Sorry Sonny, but I disagree!

By jim d

March 1, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

Georgia’s calculation is criticized because it does not account for the number of students entering high school at a specific point in time and the number of that same cohort of students who graduate with a regular diploma four years later. The state’s approach does attempt to create a proxy for cohort progress by using annual dropout rates. One of the limitations of this particular proxy method is that it does not include the ballooning effect that is typically observed in the 9th grade, as students are unable to pass all of their 9th grade coursework and thus do not move with their cohort to 10th grade. While some of these students may officially dropout during the 9th grade year, there are likely others who may continue. At a minimum, the state’s official calculation rate overstates the on-time graduation rate because it does not make any adjustments for student retention.

By Teacher2

March 1, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this

From your comments, I suppose our GC is an anomaly. Like many of you, I was skeptical of the program, but our GC has made a believer out of me.

Earlier this year, I sent several of my students (juniors) to talk with her after they presented me with withdrawal forms to sign. I refused to sign the forms until they met with her. I don’t know what she told them, but when they returned they became model students. She checks in with me on a weekly basis to make sure they’re still on track.

She has set up tutoring and mentoring programs, remediation opportunities, and even Saturday workshops for the graduation tests that are actively and even enthusiastically attended. One of her strategies: if a student does not attend the testing workshops, and said student does not pass all of the grad tests but is otherwise eligible to graduate, he/she cannot walk the field for graduation.

It is too soon to tell the full impact of her efforts, but frankly, I’m impressed so far.

By jim d

March 1, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

WHY WOULD SONNY LIE??

Not to difficult to fidure that one out.

NCLB’s requirements for states to meet AYP.

Looks like Sonny has been watching how Gwinnett and a few others have managed to massage the numbers.

It is really starting to p** me off, watching politicans playing these numbers games at the expense of our kids!

By Janine

March 1, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this

jimd RE: ” Georgia’s calculation is criticized because it does not account for the number of students entering high school at a specific point in time and the number of that same cohort of students who graduate with a regular diploma four years later”. That is also the flaw in AYP calculations. For example, instead of testing students in a school at the end of 6th grade, and then comparing their scores with THEIR [meaning those SAME students] scores at the end of 5th grade ..and calculating progress, the Morons compare 6th grade in one year with a completely different group of students in 6th grade last year. When Jim Wooten met with the U.S. Sec. of ED a couple of weeks ago, he asked her about this faulty method….She said she realized this was not a good way, but gave him some c** and bull story about why NCLB had to do it this was….and then told him they were working on it.

By jim d

March 1, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this

Teach II,

How many just “go away” without asking your consent?

By Janine

March 1, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

When my middle school was “restructured” because it had been on the NCLB failing list for so long [note….80% of the students were ESOL], one of our counselors kept waiting to hear where she was going to be placed and finally approx. 2 weeks before school started last fall she was assigned to be a Graduation Coach. She had never done high school before, but went for a little InService and was off and running.

By jim d

March 1, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

I’d say Georgia’s school improvement plan is simply “lie about the numbers,” “give the appearance of improvement”

By jim d

March 1, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

Janine,

I must agree. In the absence of statewide student information systems that track individual student level data no method is 100 percent accurate

By catlady

March 1, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

Teach2—they have been letting students who do not pass the high school grad test walk for graduation??!How could that happen—those kids are not graduating! The newspaper is full each May of pity stories where a student just missed it on the HSGT and is moaning about not being able to walk.

I think it is a huge waste to put in grad coaches, since it is evident, and largely “pre-ordained” by the time they are in high school, which children don’t have a snowball’s chance. So the grad coach puts a bandaid over the festering wound—it will merely pop out in some other place in a few weeks on months. If, however, we attack the underlying pathology early and effectively (I am not saying this can be done, but if we did this is when we would do it to make a difference) we might be able to keep some of these kids in school to completion. It would require things like DFACS being more aggressive on neglectful and drugged parents, tutoring for parents and students, firm expectations for parents and students from school entry on, etc.

By jim d

March 1, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

Cat,

I fear a 100% graduation rate is a pipe dream. Certain students are doomed to failure regardless of what we do. It has been that way since the beginning of time (survival of the fittest) and I don’t see that ever changing.

By jim d

March 1, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

Here’s a point to ponder.

Should we even be attepting to keep these loosers in school?

They take up time and space that would better benefit students that are there to succeed. They disrupt the teaching/Learning process and cost a lot of tax dollars. Even if they do manage to stick around and get a diploma, most will end up on public assistance anyway and continue to cost taxpayers.

By JustMe

March 1, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

Instead of hiring “graduation coaches” the State needs to do SOMETHING about the teacher shortage in the high school critical areas of math and science. These two areas, by the way, are the two areas where it is most likely for schools to NOT make AYP (math) and for student to NOT pass the graduation test (science).

The State needs to throw money at the area that gives us the biggest bang for the buck!

By disgustedtaxpayer

March 1, 2007 3:50 PM | Link to this

I don’t care at all about GA’s graduation rate. I can’t believe we pay tax dollars to coddle failing, uninterested, lazy students into trying to graduate from highschool. As if the most minimum amount of effort on their part wouldn’t be enough!

As a parent of 3 smart, disciplined, straight A students, I’m glad to see the failing kids drop out and leave my children’s campus. Good riddance. I don’t think we should spend on dime on trying to retain them. If they don’t want an education, that is fine with me. They are a distraction to the learning environment of students who do want an education.

I say lets encourage them to leave—the sooner the better. My children certainly won’t miss them and I know their teachers won’t either.

And before you start to tell me about all the money I’m saving paying for their education and not paying for them to go to jail later, just stop yourself and don’t bother. Many of them will end up in jail later anyway, so I’m just paying twice for the same result.

When my children were little and whined about school, I was always quick to point out to them the alternative. Children all over the world would love to go to school, but have to work in the fields, or hide in hovels from soldiers, or are recruited to be child soldiers, or forced into child prostitution—every single day. And here in America we cry and wring our hands over 16 year old healthy, strapping, well fed, spoiled young adults who just cannot be bothered to take advantage of all the opportunities we lay at their feet. And we are surprised by the results we get. Good grief!

By KA

March 1, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this

disgusted taxpayer, Well Said!

By jim d

March 1, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

Well dropping out doesn’t mean one can’t continue to learn. L’Amour wrote in his autobiography Education of a Wandering Man, “The idea of education has been so tied to schools, universities, and professors that many assume there is no other way, but education is available to anyone within reach of a library, a post office, or even a newsstand.”

That could be extended to include the World Wide Web now. But, of course, L’Amour left out the very best and most important source for a good education: parents who love to learn. Parents who have the right attitude about learning in their own life more easily cultivate a good attitude in their kids.

In my opinion, people who don’t keep up active learning all their lives are the real drop-outs.

By Janine

March 1, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

Well jimd… The idea of education has been so tied to schools, universities, and professors that many assume there is no other way,… you’ve hit a nerve now….for years and years and years and years many of my colleagues and I begged and pleaded with the”Powers” to consider that schooling is not the only way to become a productive and contributing citizen. But No-o-oo . It’s the graduate, go to college way or no way.

By catlady

March 1, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

I agree to some extent with disgusted. However, I take it one further and would say (if I ran things) that if you drop out or force us to kick you out you have 2 choices—a boot camp detention that will help you find some motivation, or go into the service. Pregnant girls go to boot camp with appropriate modifications, such as parenting skills. Married dropout? The service. No excuses. You can take advantage of the taxpayers’ largess in providing you a chance for an education, or we will help you get training through boot camp/vocational training or the military/vocational training. Lots of our dropouts are lacking motivation, consistent positive modeling, good choice making, and a goal. My plan would provide that, and when the dropout’s “time” was up, they would have had practice at those desirable traits and vocational training also. When faced with the choice of staying out of trouble and in school, or mandatory bootcamp/military service, I think many who make our high schools the unpleasant places they are will be “motivated” to make the better decision. If not, at least they will have time to develop better, more useful habits and skills. It makes more sense than continuing to feed them at the public trough or be victimized by them.

By catlady

March 1, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this

And let’s face it, dropouts provide us with a wealth of low-wage, low-ambition laborers, and provide those in justice, counseling, and other related fields with job opportunities to serve them. Plus, we get to talk bad about them!

By jim d

March 1, 2007 5:27 PM | Link to this

Gee cat,

I never would have taken you for a socialist.

By Ernest

March 1, 2007 5:36 PM | Link to this

To directly answer the question, Is this an education miracle in the making, I concur with most of the postings. There may be a few successes here and there however considering the investment being made, I question whether the state is getting a good return.

By ihatepublicschools

March 1, 2007 5:56 PM | Link to this

OMG - I just need to start buying lottery tickets. I need to get my kids the heck out of public schools. They are soooooo lame, lame, lame!

Public schooooolllllls suuuuuuck!

By catlady

March 1, 2007 5:59 PM | Link to this

Sorry, jim, I don’t think I am a socialist. But I do think I am tired of paying for “freedom” for others (freedom from responsibility, freedom from hard work, etc). I think the current system is not working very well on either end, and I think most of the dropouts will victimize the rest of us in some way, so it would be better to see to it that they get skills and habits that make them more marketable and able to support themselves and their families. I think it is important short-term and long-term, given the generational tendencies of these problems.

Darn it! The curse of being able to argue both sides!

Maybe a less-intense form of this would be the kind of tracking that goes on in other countries, where those not academically inclined are shunted into vocational tracks early on. One problem for us is we have so many disfunctional families and loss of sense of pride that used to keep folks out of trouble. I think we need to get the non-performers and the trouble-makers out of the way so the rest of the students can learn, that many of the non-performers just need the kind of carrot/stick and self-discipline that this would provide, and that the underclass will continue to grow unless we take a more aggressive approach to our problems. Our willingness as Americans to give “one: more chance (over and over), to excuse poor choices, and to, if not reward, fail to punish those who choose to be a burden will be a large part of our downfall.

Maybe I have had a bad week and didn’t know it..

By HS Teacher Too

March 1, 2007 6:41 PM | Link to this

cat—

I agree with you. Not only that, but if we could get rid of the kids who make it VERY CLEAR that they don’t want to be there, we would, arguably, solve our “teacher shortage” at the same time. I just keep thinking of the entire classes of human waste that I saw/had colleagues who saw, etc.

Hmmm.

Now bear in mind, I am not saying to get rid of lower-level or remedial classes, before anyone accuses me of that. I am simply saying that getting rid of the kids who don’t want to be there will help.

That’s why I don’t support raising the drop-out age. They want to go? Let ‘em. Likewise, even if they “don’t” want to drop out, but they don’t evidence any real motivation to do what school requires they do, bye-bye as well. Go to night school or else come back in a year or two when you figure it out.

By Monica

March 1, 2007 6:49 PM | Link to this

Wow, some real cynics out there with regard to the dropout issue. I worked for two decades in traditional public schools and was dismayed (and still am) at how few students really are successful in high school as it is structured. I’m talking about students who really love and enjoy going to classes and being part of a high school. There’s a significant cohort of students who pass their courses, and perhaps participate in some clubs or organizations, but they are just marking time until they get out of high school and go on to something interesting and stimulating, such as college or a career.

There is another substantial cohort of high schoolers who do terribly in high school, of whom many drop out and those who don’t either plug along until they either flunk out, quit, or graduate. A small but vocal minority cause serious disruption and become entrenched in the disciplinary system.

The student population in my charter high school in Atlanta is 100% dropouts who have enrolled in Job Corps and want a high school diploma instead of a GED. I can honestly say that there are very few of the young people we work with who demonstrate laziness or a sense of entitlement.

I truly don’t believe that the majority of students who are not successful in high school are lazy and disinterested, although there are a few bad apples in every barrel. A few. School is structured to appeal to those who “do school” well. This is only 25% of the general population, if you subscribe to learning styles theory.

MANY classes in most high schools are boring as sin, especially if you’re not an AP or honors student. There is an extreme focus on grades as punishment. with zeroes, for example, rather than formative assessment and judicious use of “incomplete” until at least a C grade is achieved. There is a serious lack of inspired, interesting, research-based instruction for the students who fall outside the gifted and advanced groups.

In our school, we provide the type of instruction that is ordinarily reserved for gifted and advanced students. We also use work stations equipped with technology rather than desks. There is very little lecture. Grades are awarded upon demonstration of mastery, without regard to seat time.

Our students respond strongly and positively to this environment. My dream as a principal is for every student to really enjoy attending every class with every teacher, rather than slogging through some boring classes just to get to one good period with a great teacher. If high schools were structured like that, there would be very few dropouts.

By Monica

March 1, 2007 6:58 PM | Link to this

HS Teacher Too posted, “getting rid of the kids who don’t want to be there will help.”

Gosh. I’d rather see us address the reasons why the kids who don’t want to be there got to that point. I’ve been a principal and teacher in schools from K to 12. Most kindergarten classes are filled with children who love the teacher and are thrilled to be finally attending big kid school. By the time they get to 4th grade, it’s becoming clear who is likely not to make it to 12th grade. But we don’t change what we are doing in classrooms, especially in middle and high school classrooms, to appeal to all students, not just the top performers who love to “do school.” Kids learn early on that the low classes usually get the worst/or least experienced/or most burned out teachers. This helps to create the environment that ensure that the at-risk prophecy is fulfilled.

I’m detecting in many of these posts a real animosity toward kids who unapologetically don’t fit the mold. As a classroom teacher, when my students haven’t responded to my teaching in the way I thought they would, I learned through the National Board Certification process of self-examination and reflection to stop questioning and blaming them. I learned to hold up a mirror to my teaching practice and experiment with changing my behaviors, lessons, practices. And guess what? I began to reach a whole lot more of my students, particularly the “bad” students and the “lazy” students, without sacrificing the classroom for the “good” students.

By Teacher2

March 1, 2007 7:19 PM | Link to this

jim d, They are required to submit withdrawal forms or we send our school officer out to find them. The forms are required whether the student transfers, drops out, ostensibly to get a GED, or goes to alternative school. I’ve sent the officer to track down a couple of truants, and I’ve seen him drag in quite a few. Usually the student who drops out without a withdrawal form is simply AWOL, and a parental contact coupled with a visit from DFACS and a reminder that the kid cannot keep/get his driver’s license gets ‘em back in school. Still, the dropout rate is much too high. At least we’re making strides toward increasing the graduation rate. Now if you can tell me how to cure apathy and a sense of entitlement, we’ll be in business.

By Teacher2

March 1, 2007 7:21 PM | Link to this

cat, Yep. They can walk, but only if they have passed all but one section of the graduation test and have met all other credit requirements.

By HS Teacher Too

March 1, 2007 7:27 PM | Link to this

Monica —

I am with you on changing the way we reach these kids. Some of my most successful, most memorable classes OF ALL MY CAREER were with the lower-achieving kids, many of whom wanted to drop out, but remarkably, came to school for 8th period (this was in the north) MATH, on FRIDAYS. I have done the outside-the-box things, but there are two problems that remain.

Trust me, I agree with you. But I also know that there are kids who need to figure it out for themselves, and forcing them to stay in a system that is already failing them, only fails them worse. (Not the most grammatically correct way of putting it, but I hope you see what I am trying to say.) Now that being said, I would hope, and I do believe, that THOSE kids are the truly overwhelming minority.

By jim d

March 2, 2007 8:17 AM | Link to this

If I correctly understand what you are saying.

“I’ve sent the officer to track down a couple of truants, and I’ve seen him drag in quite a few. Usually the student who drops out without a withdrawal form is simply AWOL, and a parental contact coupled with a visit from DFACS and a reminder that the kid cannot keep/get his driver’s license gets ‘em back in school”

Then the school has overstepped its bounds once again and is operating much like a police state.

Georgia law only requires a student to remain in school until their 16th birthday, to my knowledge a 16-year-old isn’t required to get permission from the school to quit. Therefore in my opinion the school systems should have absolutely no authority to “drag in” a 16 year old. To do so would violate that 16-year-olds civil liberties, possibly even being considered kid napping or false imprisonment. I assure you, you wouldn’t want me setting in a jury box listening to a school system defending such actions, someone would be imprisoned all right —- and it wouldn’t be the 16-year-old.

By Lee

March 2, 2007 8:37 AM | Link to this

I still don’t get it….

Somebody explain to me the difference between a Graduation Coach and a Counselor.

You want to identify those students at risk of dropping out? Just ask the teachers who they have recommended to be retained but were passed along from grade to grade. You don’t need a fancy pie chart and Excel spreadsheet full of statistics to tell you that….

By jim d

March 2, 2007 8:42 AM | Link to this

Monica,

I truly appreciate your concerns and your actions, but please tell me why as a taxpayer, you feel, I should give a rip about educating someone that doesn’t care enough to suck it up and do what they must to get that education and why I should support funding of a school that caters to the whims of a few because they are unable to adapt to the accepted means that society has deemed appropriate for providing an education.

By jim d

March 2, 2007 8:45 AM | Link to this

Lee,

That’s a no brainer.

The state funds $40000 of the graduation coach’s annual salary.

Think about it!

By JustMe

March 2, 2007 9:08 AM | Link to this

Lee-

I will try to answer your question. However, please understand that I may not AGREE with this….

A councilor is supposed to work on the students class schedule for the semester, work with crisis intervention (child abuse, etc.), work with individual students on their individual needs while in school.

A graduation coach is supposed to look at the bigger picture for the student. What are the road blocks that may prevent the student from graduating? Is that high school student financially supporting the family? If so, what state agencies can assist. Does that student need special education or special tutoring in any subject? If so, what resources are available to assist.

The graduation coach is supposed to be more personable and also more “in your face” by arranging meetings with students at risk on a regular basis and also speaking with their parents on a regular basis.

By JustMe

March 2, 2007 9:16 AM | Link to this

jim d-

I will answer your question to Monica? Why should we care about funding a student that doesn’t care about their education?

Well, the best response to that question is to examine what will happen if we don’t care… What happens to that student? They can end up on welfare, with more of your tax dollars supporting them the rest of their lives (I know that you would love that, right?). Or, they can end up in crime - stealing, killing, etc. This could lead to jail time, which again cost tax payers even more. Or, they can end up in the drug society. Or, at best, they could end up in dead end, low paying, jobs.

This is why our society has deemed it important to provide all citizens with a minimum of education - public education - and that our tax dollars go towards the greater good for our society. Trust me, I do not have children of my own and yet I have paid tons of money towards education…. for our society benefit.

By jim d

March 2, 2007 9:52 AM | Link to this

Just me,

There are many factors that add up to why incarcerated criminals aren’t educated.

The average prison inmate:

Fifteen percent of prison inmates score below 75 on the Wechsler Scale of Adult Intelligence (Revised), indicating a substantially higher than average rate of mental retardation; and 70% have no skill or trade education.

So explain please how just keeping them in school when they aren’t going to learn anyway, really benefits society. These folks are doomed regardless.

By KA

March 2, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

jim d, In my experience years ago as a GED examiner I found many prison inmates to be quite intelligent, but they made bad choices, got caught, and were incarcerated. Many came from bad families and neighborhoods, and chose the wrong group to hang out with, but I think the majority that I tested who were mostly in for theft, drug and drunken driving problems were basically good people. They were mostly young and impulsive and lacking in knowledge of how to get themselves turned around. Many of them just needed a chance to get started on the right path once they left prison. They are not doomed as you say. Each one was a person in search of answers.

By JustMe

March 2, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

jim d-

Per your usual self, you zero in on one tiny aspect and then pontificate on it to the nth degree. There were many things that I mentioned that COULD happen if we DON’T educate our citizens. Jail time was just one POSSIBLE thing.

The more I read your posts, the more that I would suggest for you to purchase a tiny island somewhere so that you can live alone and be content….

By Lee

March 2, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

Jim D, I don’t think the question is “Why are we keeping them in school”, but rather, “Why are we trying to force a college prep curriculum down their throats while a large percentage of students will not, nor do they have any intention of, going to college.”

You said it yourself in your previous post regarding inmates where “70% have no skill or trade education.”

I think if you gave these at risk students some viable alternatives, ones that they see could benefit them, they might not go down the wrong path and wind up in jail.

By Lee

March 2, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

JustMe, thanks for the definition.

By jim d

March 2, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

Lee,

I couldn’t agree more. Teaching a 15-16 year old some marketable skills rather than force feeding them an education that they don’t value makes all the sense in the world. But then that would require the powers to be, that control education in this country, to actually become educated themselves.

By jim d

March 2, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Just me,

I did address some of the druggies (those in jail anyway.) But sorry for failing to address the welfare folks.

There are a few reports out there that do claim a little more than 50% of welfare recpients don’t have a HS Diploma. Which would mean that nearly 50% of them do have one. What do you make of that?

By disgustedtaxpayer

March 2, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this

You are right of course Monica, they are not all disinterested and lazy. Many of them are also violent and terrifying. Read the interview on CNN today with the Philadelphia teachers speaking out in support of their recently assaulted teacher. One of them actually suffers from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from being attacked by students in her classroom.

This is what we get for our efforts to keep people who want to be elsewhere in our public schools. And what of the children in those schools who are even more frightened than the teachers? What of their right to the promise of public education? Who will advocate for them as so many do for the animals (oh sorry, I mean poor disadvantaged children) who make their learning environment a war zone?

Anyone old enough to assault a teacher and leave them with a broken neck is old enough to leave the schools and take their attitude and their violent behavior elsewhere. It is unlikely that keeping them in school another year or two is going to be enough get their lives back on track.

Does society have a vested interest in trying to keep people from falling into a life of crime and misery? Absolutely. Is a highschool diploma the only answer to all that ails these young adults? Not likely. If they are on their way to a life of drugs, jail, and violent crime, giving them (and it will be giving it—because you know they won’t really earn it) a diploma will not be enough to change their path.

My heart goes out to the teachers and students who have to put up with these ungrateful bullies disrupting their lives every single day. I have not much heart left over for the bullies.

By JustMe

March 2, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

I agree 100% that our society should not be pushing a college bound high school curriculum down the students throats. We need to offer a variety of programs that include life skils, job skills, and basic education for those students with no interest in college.

For some reason, most in education have pushed to try and prepare EVERYONE for college. IMHO, and I don’t mean for this to sound racist at all, I think that this push stems from the push to encourage more african-americans to attend college. But, it is a good thing?

The question that we all need to be asking Cox every day - what is GA doing??????

By HB

March 2, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

“Georgia law only requires a student to remain in school until their 16th birthday, to my knowledge a 16-year-old isn’t required to get permission from the school to quit. Therefore in my opinion the school systems should have absolutely no authority to “drag in” a 16 year old. To do so would violate that 16-year-olds civil liberties, possibly even being considered kid napping or false imprisonment.”

I just wanted to add to this that, in the past, Georgia law has also allowed parents to withdraw a child from school up to age 18. I don’t believe this has changed — does anyone know for sure? Talk about violating civil liberties! Under these laws, 16-year-olds had the right to decide to leave, but not the right to stay! I know of one instance, where a 17-year-old, second semester senior ran away from a chaotic home, had a safe place to stay, and continued to attend school. The police wouldn’t pick her up, so her mother tried to withdraw her from school. By law, she could do that. Somehow the school stalled the mom for a couple of weeks until the kid turned 18, but if her birthday hadn’t been so soon, she would have been forced to drop out. Because she was over 16, the mom, after withdrawing her, would have been under no obligation to even homeschool her.

Many people insist we need to put more responsibility on high school age students for their own education, and rightfully so. In doing so, though, we also have to give them more rights when it comes to making decisions. This should include the right to decide to attend public school as of age 16, the right to decide which extracurricular activities they want to participate in (the legislature tried to mandate permission slips to belong to any and all clubs last year because they didn’t like one club in White County), and as many here have pointed out, the right to pursue different paths of learning, including vocational education.

By JustMe

March 2, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

HB -

Something to possibly explain your post a little…. although the State of GA is not required to education a student beyond the age of 16, they are still minors. And, if their parent/guardian wants their 16 or 17 year old in high school, then the schools must accept them - even if that 16 or 17 year old doesn’t want to be there.

Therein lies the problem.

By jim d

March 2, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this

HB, & just me.

Help me understand.

Are y’all saying?

At 16 a student can quit comming to school. The school is no longer required by law to notify the parents.

Yet a parent can demand the school hunt the kid down and force them to go to school even though the kid has the legal right not to go.

Or am I missing something here?

By HB

March 2, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

It’s my understanding that if a child withdraws him/herself, the parent cannot force enrollment, and the child is not truant for not attending (basically what you said before, jim d). I’ve never heard that if a parent demands the child be kept in that schools can enforce that.

However, as of a few years ago and I don’t think this has changed, a parent retains the right to withdraw a student from school up to age 18. A child can choose as of age 16 to dropout. However, if that child wants to remain in public school, but parents want to pull him/her out, they can do that. So, a 16-year-old can legally choose to drop out, but cannot choose to stay in.

By Bridget Gutierrez

March 2, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

Just wanted to jump in and let y’all know the law on high school students withdrawing from school changed last year to require parental permission first.

So, while the compulsory schooling age is still 6 to 16, parents must sign papers to let a teenager older than 16 withdraw before he or she graduates. Previously, kids could drop out on their own once they turned 17.

The Georgia PTA, which pushed for the change, was hoping this would cut down on the dropout rate.

By HB

March 2, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Good to know — thanks, Bridget! Do you know if parents can still withdraw students against their will until age 18? The link you provided says parents withdrawing students aged 6 to 16 must provide an alternative (private school, homeschooling), but it seems like a 17-year-old could still be withdrawn against his/her will by parents without them having to provide any further education.

By JustMe

March 2, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

jim d- Please read Bridget’s last post. It explains the law. Yes, a parent can insist that the school hunt down the 16 year old and force them in school. The only way a 16 year old can legally not be in school is if the parents agree to this and sign papers.

By JustMe

March 2, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

Bridget,

I am afraid that what the GA PTA did not realize is that their law means that rowdy 16 year olds will be in a classroom, where they do not want to be, terrorizing other students and the teacher, making the learning process even that much more difficult for the students that DO want to be there.

By Bridget Gutierrez

March 2, 2007 5:27 PM | Link to this

HB: I’m afraid I can’t answer that question. I’ve never heard policymakers or education advocates discuss that issue.

I suspect you might be correct about a parent’s ability to withdraw a student against his or her will after the age of 16 — although, I would think that would draw suspicion from school officials, no?

By HB

March 2, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Bridget. I think this is an issue that’s been overlooked by legislators. In the situation I mentioned earlier, the school did realize the home situation was bad, but there was little they could do about it. Report it to DFACS? An investigation would probably take a while, and they didn’t think it was so much an abusive situation as an extremely dysfunctional one (read would-be Jerry Springer guests). An investigation and adult support for the student (teachers, admin, CASA) could likely have resulted in a court order that the child be allowed to attend school, perhaps through emancipation, but by then, she would have missed several months of school.

I’ve known of two other cases where a junior and senior were unwillingly pulled out of school because the parents were upset that certain books were in the curriculum, Catcher in the Rye and Wise Blood, even though school policy was that students could opt out of reading either subbing another book that their parents approved. In those cases, they were sent to a small religious school that offered a limited curriculum. Both had been in advanced math and AP classes and had to go backwards in new schools where the highest math offered was Algebra 2 and there were no APs.

While I do feel that parents have the right to raise their children as they deem fit, at what point should teenagers be allowed to make decisions that effect their future? Perhaps a 14-year-old should have to follow parents orders, but should an almost 18-year-old be forced to leave a state-approved curriculum and attend an unaccredited high school?

By Monica

March 5, 2007 9:26 AM | Link to this

Jim d asked, “I truly appreciate your concerns and your actions, but please tell me why as a taxpayer, you feel, I should give a rip about educating someone that doesn’t care enough to suck it up and do what they must to get that education and why I should support funding of a school that caters to the whims of a few…”

A year in prison costs, on the average, $20,000. A year of high school, even in expensive Atlanta, is a fraction of that.

“…because they are unable to adapt to the accepted means that society has deemed appropriate for providing an education.” Society trusts teachers and administrators to provide an appropriate education for all students. In reality, early on in students’ schooling, the weakest students get the weakest teachers. After spending years in futility, by the time many of these students are in high school, they are frustrated with a system that has failed them. As a principal who has spent the better part of 25 years in traditional public high schools in GA, NC, Conn., and Mass., I can assure you that the system fails a significant number of students who need it the most, those without strong parent advocacy, without a good grounding in the basics before high school, without much hope. It is unfair to judge all of them from the outside and assume that they have had the same exact schooling and opportunities in the classroom. The system is rotten to the core when you look at what it does for needy and desperate students. Katy Haycock of the Education Trust has documented this time and again.

If my school isn’t funded (with dollars that would otherwise go to the failing school system that was unsuccessful with these students the first time around, NOT with additional or extra dollars), then urban high school systems are free to continue to record these students as dropouts and leave them to their own devices.

Having said all this, Disgusted Taxpayer, I don’t support catering to violent criminals and thugs. If a “student” is dealing drugs, assaulting teachers or other students, etc., that person belongs in the criminal justice system. It’s too late for a high school to have any influence, no matter how good the program is. In previous jobs, I’ve had a few students hauled out the front door in handcuffs and expelled them (the most notable example was an affluent white student, dad a professor, mom a corporate attorney, soccer scholarship to college waiting, but he just had to bring a backpack full of marijuana divided into smaller bags and ready to sell). I’ve been threatened several times and even physically assaulted once. (In the same affluent white school, by the way. By far the worst experiences I have had with student crime and violence came in the one wealthy white suburban school I worked in in New England. Go figure.)

In my current school, I have never even had to suspend a student. They are grateful to have an education in an environment of respect and cooperation, which is far different from what they have had in the past. I’ve never been sworn at or threatened. They don’t spray paint graffiti about me or any of their teachers. Many of my students say, “If my high school had been like this, I wouldn’t have dropped out.”

By Monica

March 5, 2007 9:33 AM | Link to this

Lee asked, “Somebody explain to me the difference between a Graduation Coach and a Counselor.”

I know that every school has a different perspective, because this is a new position with very little job description. However, my understanding of the distinction is this:

Counselors are charged with scheduling, advising, and providing counseling services to the entire high school population grades 9-12.

Graduation Coaches are charged with closely watching the students who have been identified as at risk of not graduating. No scheduling or other “guidance counselor” type duties. The GC works with the counselor, the parents, the classroom teachers, social worker, et al, to ensure that the student has all necessary support to get to graduation.

By SET

March 5, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

HS Teacher Too and Jim D. are on the money. The state schools are doomed to failure as long as they are filled with IQ missmatched students who really don’t want to be there and can’t learn alongside normal IQ students.

Either screen them out completely or route them to their own schools where they can be taught to be good servants or ditch diggers or anything else useful where they can find work.

All the graduation coaches in the schools can’t make these people “graduate” from an academic program. There is NO “necessary support to get to graduation” possible if they are in a normal school. They are too dumb to pass the state exit exams to say the least. Their very presense brings violence as they really excell in that area - as well as promiscuity. You can’t have them around normal kids.

If students are running an IQ of under 80 they need to be in a school for dull people with a curriculum for dull people that leads to honest work.

By jim d

March 5, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this

Monica,

I’m afraid I still don’t get it. Perhaps because I’m just fed up with the blindness of public education and the politics of same in this country.