Get Schooled

By KA

February 28, 2007 8:18 AM | Link to this

I know plenty of parents who did their kids’ homework, more often their big papers and projects while my kids were in school. And after discussing it with my kids’ teachers I found out that they knew when the parents did the work. I helped my kids by showing them how to research in the library and online and in encyclopedias (dinosaurs that still live in my house!). I helped them assemble posters and paints and markers, whatever they needed for projects, but they did the work. For papers I proofread and marked their mistakes and told them to figure out the correct grammar usage, fix punctuation and spelling, run on sentences, and I made them rewrite messy papers.

By Chris

February 28, 2007 8:31 AM | Link to this

Parents are doing their kids an injustice. Will the parents be at their side in the real world when they get a job?

By Janine

February 28, 2007 8:43 AM | Link to this

I remember attending one county science fair in which there were some fascinating projects. However, I was assured by the Science teachers with me that the students had very little to do with projects.. THeir parents had designed and spent weeks perfecting them. So sad for those students who had actually done their own. I like the idea of having the students do the research and projects in class. It really levels the playing field.

By JustMe

February 28, 2007 8:52 AM | Link to this

I really don’t know which is worse for the poor kids - parents that do nothing for them, or parents that do everything for them.

I have always advocated a required parent class in the State of GA. With my naive self, I feel that most parents simply don’t know what to do and need the education on HOW to parent.

By Vicki

February 28, 2007 8:52 AM | Link to this

I know several parents who do their kids homework, especially the projects. They are the same parents who play their kids down a year in the rec. leagues because they aren’t as good as the other players. Poor baby’s feelings got hurt last year when their peers were better at the game.

These parents are teaching the kids it is OK to cheat.

By a high school mom

February 28, 2007 8:53 AM | Link to this

Yes, yes, yes, parents do the kids’ homework and projects. When my son was in the 8th grade, one student’s science fair project was so perfectly thought out and presented on posterboard, it was more than impressive. His project was about what rate tablets vs. capsules dissolve or something. Turns out his parent was a pharmacist! As if he did not have any help! The whole premise of the fair was to come up with a topic on his own and prove or disprove his theory.

Another instance that comes to mind was when my son was in the 2nd grade. They studied the USS Constitution, “Old Ironsides”. You should have seen the model ships built at home. The students were told they could simply draw a picture of the ship on posterboard or make a cardboard model. A number of kids came in with model kits assembled and painted. The parents must’ve spent every night working on them. The same can also be said of the Pinebox derby cars and Cub Scouts.

Parents need to back off and let their kids develop, and fail if necessary. Better they do it in the younger years and learn to pick themselves up, than to get to high school, or worse, college, only to find they cannot do the work.

By teach/mom

February 28, 2007 8:53 AM | Link to this

Everyone should remember these are not adults that are doing homework. These are children/students. They look to adults for guidence and support. While I do not adovate “doing” thier work for them I do beleive it is every parents job to be a part of their child’s education and homework is where it is at! As my daughter went through school there were many lessons she learned I like to believe that I had a part of those lessons. There may have been one or two times I helped a little more than I wanted to but there was a lesson taught to my daughter through our conversations. She was taught it is always ok to ask for help! If you think you can survive in this world/work place all by yourself you are wrong! IF you don’t understand something you better ask your boss for carification before you ruin thousands of dollars of investment or run off customers. The worst mistake anyone can make is being afraid to ask for some help. So I will and do help with homework and think every parent should.

By a high school parent

February 28, 2007 8:59 AM | Link to this

Guidance, assistance, advice, are all acceptable efforts on behalf of the parent, but the work should come from the student.

By Vicki

February 28, 2007 9:01 AM | Link to this

I think there is a difference between doing the work for a child and guiding a child.

By V for Vendetta

February 28, 2007 9:05 AM | Link to this

Teach/mom is right, at a young age a parent’s guidance can make all the difference in the world. Having a parent around (because let’s face it, a lot of kids don’t) is a HUGE advantage in and of itself. I cheer kid’s parents who are willing to provide support in that way.

As for the ones that do the work for them and make excuses for the kid when the work isn’t done … I hope they get mauled by an angry koala bear.

To be honest, most of my high schoolers projects are so laughably bad I wish their parents DID do them instead. I don’t think some kids or parents have any concept of what constitutes GOOD work.

By Janine

February 28, 2007 9:05 AM | Link to this

I think this “Parent Involvment in Homework” thing is a fairly recent phenomenon. Back in the day, when I was in school, parents never did more than *ask * if we had done our homework and punish us if it turned out that we had not. The extent of parent involvment was taking us to the library or to the store to buy supplies. There were expectations that we would do what we were suppose to do ! As I have said here before, IMO, it is NOT parent involvment, but parent attitude that is important.

By momtomax&alex

February 28, 2007 9:41 AM | Link to this

To Janine: Amen sister!

The thing is (althought I have not yet experienced this myself), I wonder if the assignments themselves are age-appropiate. I have a friend whose 3rd grader had a science assignment: a volcano! I don’t have an 8 year old yet, but is this not a bit too advanced for a kid that age? (And I could be wrong here, I just don’t know)

By ChrisD

February 28, 2007 9:54 AM | Link to this

The most stressful part of high school was those annoying science projects. Required WAY too much time. Yuck (and I liked science).

By schoolteacher

February 28, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

I taught for 10 years in a reputable Gwinnett County middle school. We were told several years before I left the county that we couldn’t count homework grades toward a student’s average anymore. Homework could be applied toward a student’s effort grade only. They said this was because of the high number of homework assignments that were being done by the parents instead of the students.

By jim d

February 28, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this

V,

Should I never meet an angry koala bear.

I suspect I’ve been quilty of “helping” in the past. But then I fail to see my “helping” to be any different than his asking a teacher to review his projects prior to the due date and then him making corrections. So to be toatlly honest here—teachers can be just as quilty of providing too much help.

Any thoughts on that?

By PTAPrez

February 28, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

Oh boy! I have VERY strong feelings about this! At my So. Dekalb county school, not only are parents not concerned about doing their students work, the students are REWARDED with A’s! Nice, huh?!

My 3rd grader had a project in Math not long ago. The teacher issued each student in the class an oversized check for $5,000. The student was to look through magazines, books, and newspapers to find what they would purchase and deduct each purchase from the $5K showing their math and writing a statement why they would purchase that particular item.

Well! Some of those projects were downright professional! Perfect handwriting, edges cut perfectly and sharp, drawings and borders… I mean, they were brilliant! My son’s project on the other hand, had jagged edges, his own penmenship, and the math done out in pencil (with several erasings!). He was embarrassed by his own project. I told him to hold his head up because those other students are CHEATERS and he wasn’t. Needless to say, all of the projects were on display in the hall and the professional jobs were awarded A’s.

I’ve met with the teacher & the administration about this problem, which is more prevalent than they’d like to admit, but I was told taking the grades back after they were awarded would hurt the child and they would “look into the matter”.

What a crock! This is reason #13 why I hate Dekalb county schools and glad the house we’re building in Covington will be done in June.

By jim d

February 28, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

3 essays

A major report (counted as 5 test grades)

2 researh papers

This semester already and in only 2 subjects.

Without parental assistance and prompting—What’s a student to do?

C’mon you teachers—tell me.

By Peppermint Patty

February 28, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this

jim d,

What’s a student to do? The work! No tv, no trips to the mall, no giggling phone calls at night…

Guidance to resources, answering questions, ensuring time management skills are reinforced and the like is your parental duty, but should your hand touch the paper to make additions, corrections, or upgrades (unless your student is in 1st grade or Kindergarten), you are helping your child CHEAT!

By jim d

February 28, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this

Oh dear, Pat.

So a teacher reviewing the work, making notations and giving it back for correctionsprior to the due date is cheating as well?

By Peppermint Patty

February 28, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

ChrisD - in high school your science project “took up too much time”????

What else on earth did you have to do?? School was your JOB!

I tell my 10th grader everyday, that’s her JOB! I leave for work in the morning and so does she! She works at the school… her title? STUDENT! I pay her adequately with room & board, food, entertainment, a clothing allowance, free transportation, vacation time every year, PLUS bonuses of $20 every Friday and “spot bonuses” for excellent job performance!

School is a job and too many parents think it’s daycare.

By Peppermint Patty

February 28, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

No - the operative word being “TEACHER”. He or she is the boss of that classroom. Let THEM gauge what needs to be corrected - if you want to teach, fill out an application.

By jim d

February 28, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

PP,

To set the record staright.

Review and notations for his corrections. Is what I will offer.

As for his home life—none of your da$% business. But for the record, he has no calls, doesn’t hang at the mall, and the video game controllers are up.

This semester—he finished up wrestling, handled the sound and assisted with stage prop construction for the school play production, finished earning his third Eagle Palm in Boy Scouts, has read and reproted on three novels ranging from 400-800 pages and done reports on them. He spends 6 hrs. a day in school, then averages 4 hrs a day (icluding weekends)doing home work and projects.

Will I review his work? Damn right I will!!

By jim d

February 28, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this

Patty,

Where have you been? What rock did you just crawl out from under? This blog—loaded with teachers—keeps emphazing the point that parents are the front line on teaching their kids.

By jim d

February 28, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

Patti,

My application was signed nearly 17 years ago—its called a birth cirtificate.

By SNY

February 28, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

PP,

Why do you sound so angry about everything?

The bottom line is that some students do have waaaaayyyyyy too much homework everynight. As a parent, there are times when I tell my child to take a break and go and have some fun. If these kids don’t have time to relax then they are going to burn out. I have actually requested less homework for my child before. Guess what, the teacher had no problem slowing down the homework log. She took a poll of the class and found that all of the students were struggling to keep up with the homework. It was just taking up too much time. As a result, the kids were happier (very important), the got more sleep and they were outside playing 1/2 longer every night after school.

For the record, I don’t even sit with my daughter when she does her homework. She is in the 4th grade and I have yet to watch her do her homework. It is hers, not mine and she has known that since K4. I didn’t have to help her then either. I got lucky with a bright child who loved doing homework. Even in K4, she would come home from school, change her uniform, get a snack and do her homework. I never had to read the instructions for her or anything. She could do it all on her own. Surprisingly enough, now that she is in 4th grade, that love of getting it done now, has started to go to the wayside with her. Now if I let her, she will be in front of the tv for as long as possible before she decides that she may need to start on her homework. I am letting her guage herself for now. But, the 1st time that she doesn’t finish an assignment before dinner or bedtime, it will be back to my schedule.

By Peppermint Patty

February 28, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

jim d,

You’re saying two different things. First you said “helping” with the project/work, then you said “reviewing”. I’m talking about the helping. Reviewing is your duty. Don’t get your knickers all twisted.

And when I said “no phone calls, games, etc….” I meant for kids in general. Not just your precious, perfect tot. If he’s not engaging in time wasters, don’t get defensive because obviously he’s not included. Extra curricular activities are great for students who have the time to spare, for those who have “2 essays, major reports, blah, blah, blah” doesn’t sound like they have a lot of time for school work AND extra curriculars.

But as you said, it’s none of my da## business, even though you posted an open ended question on a blog.

By PTAPrez

February 28, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

Peppermint is too minty!! Hahahahaha!!

By jim d

February 28, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

pp

Now who’s got their panties in a wad?

By Peppermint Patty

February 28, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

SNY - it’s not anger! It’s passion! I want my child to EXCEED to standard, not just meet it. I live around and deal with too many complacent parents who are satisfied is their child or children just barely makes the grade. Average is unacceptable to me.

No wonder we get creamed on National test scores. It’s time to step up our game and give our kids the education they deserve, not this pacifist, my poor overworked baby junk. News flash, their heads won’t explode.

By Peppermint Patty

February 28, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

jim d - don’t wear them for just that reason! ;-)

By JustMe

February 28, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

jim d-

For the life of me, sometimes I cannot tell if you are serious with your posts or if you simply post to get some reaction….

The teachers that I know actually give very little homework or any sort of outside assignment at all. Today’s K-12 students simply seem to not want to do any work and yet they expect to be highly rewarded…… maybe this is a result of today’s society/culture?

I ask my students to spend only 15 minutes per night on my subject, yet they moan and complain. I know that the vast majority of them do not even spend 15 minutes per night and their grades reflect it.

If I do assign some paper to write or project, I give them multiple days, sometimes weeks, to do it. Yet, they procrastinate and wait until the night before. Then, they complain that the project took too long, or it was too hard, or some other lame whinning. Some of these ‘students’ then want extended time to turn it in late. What does your boss say when you ask him/her to do your work late?

My school is on block scheduling. This means that these students only have 4 subjects to worry about. And, it is usualy for at least 2 of those 4 to be PE, art, music, or some elective. When I was in school, we had 6 subjects and I had tons more work per class than I ever assign. My parent(s) never did my work for me. And, I had to do tons of household chores and I also had a part time job in high school.

Today, kids want too much ‘play’ time without doing any work. But, they fully expect to get an A for doing nothing. And, their parents are nothing more than enablers that ‘stand up’ for their kids and complain to teachers when they don’t get the A.

Please undestand that I am not describing ALL kids - just the seeming majority.

By JustMe

February 28, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

PP -

Thank you! I would love to have your child in my class!!!!

By jim d

February 28, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

Gotta luv it! :-)

By HS Teacher Too

February 28, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

Here’s a twist on this topic.

I always tell my students, unless I say otherwise, their assignment should take no more than 30-45 minutes, and often times a lot less. What’s more, they shouldn’t spend more than 5-10 minutes on any particular problem. After that point, they have a concept problem and they’ll only frustrate themselves; circle it and we’ll go over it in class the next day. (Remember, I taught high school math.)

I have explained this philosophy to parents who love it, and to parents who hate it.

Also, as a rule, I don’t collect and grade homework, because the point is that it ought to be a quick assessment of what the kids do and don’t get,and what they can and can’t do on their own; if they can’t do a problem I would rather see that they stumbled, then that it is “done,” but we can’t tell if they did it on their own. Most hw assignments include at least one or two challenging problems. If I graded it, it would encourage parental doing/”helping.” (I adamantly do NOT believe in fluffing grades with effort grades. I do offer effort grades, but not on a daily basis for homework.) Again, I have had parents who loved this philosopy, and parents who hated it.

So, high school parents, what’s your take? A policy that (to my mind) encourages parental review but not too much involvement, so we could mroe clearly see what’s going wel or poorly in class, or would you rather the kids get it all “right,” but maybe don’t understand it?

By Peppermint Patty

February 28, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

HS Teacher - I love the idea of a student stumbling a little along the way. This is a sure way of knowing where their weaknesses are and there’s nothing wrong with getting it wrong!! I’ve told my 10th grader that for years. It’s my job and the teachers job to explain 1) the reason she got it wrong and 2) the proper path to get to the correct answer.

Definitely grade for “understanding” whatever concept you’re teaching instead of grading for “completion” of the assignment or just because it’s turned in the very next day. IMHO, that’s the best way a student can learn to accept mediocrity. As long as it’s turned in, it’s out of their hands and they don’t have to even try to get it right because they get credit for getting it turned in.

By SNY

February 28, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

HST,

I love your take on things. I would definately welcome my child being in your math class.

By Lisa B.

February 28, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

Hi SNY! Great to hear from you again.

I have never done my son’s homework for him. However, I check his work, and tell him to do some things over. When he has occassionally missed a math or language question, I show him the rule or the steps in the process to correct the problem. In Science and Social Studies, I tend to send him back to his textbook or to the Internet to find the correct answer. I do read his reports, and circle errors for him to correct, but I even do that with my students on their first and second drafts. My son is an excellent student, and as a 7th grader, rarely needs my help anymore. I still look at his work though.

By catlady

February 28, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

My take on this may be a blend of those stated here. As a 3-5 teacher, I do not give homework more than a half dozen times a year. I have scoped that few of my parents can or will help with homework. So I recognize that most of what they get will come from me and the effort I am able to inspire in class. I do expect them to study spelling/vocabulary every week on their time, but it is THEIR job and I don’t bring their parents into it unless it is to notify them that their child is not doing well. While we do have some uberconcerned parents, most of them take a very hands—off attitude. Some won’t even sign the agenda!

I personally have my own parents’ take on it for my own children: I am available to answer questions or proofread IF YOU ASK (the burden is on the child). I will ask you questions to prepare for a test IF YOU LET ME KNOW YOU WANT ME TO. I will take you to the library or, within reason, buy supplies IF YOU LET ME KNOW IN ADVANCE (no last-minute trips). I WILL meet with your teachers whether they request a meeting or not. And you had better not EVER lie to me about school stuff! The baby is finishing a triple major in math and science, the others are successfully launched, and it seems like this worked for us.

By jim d

February 28, 2007 12:38 PM | Link to this

HS2,

Works for me in some subjects. (like math)But a 20 page report? or research paper? These are things that will be weighted heavely.

IMHO, to not become somewhat involved as a parent is neglecting your child’s education and believe me I’ve read plenty on these blogs about that subject.

So here’s my question.

In what way do teachers expect parental involvement? In discipline only? or should we be reinforcing the subject being taught? How should we go about doing that, in your opinion?

I know in my case, when he was younger, we might discuss the topic he was to write about, where he could find information on the topic at hand that went beyond what was in his lesson plans and I’d often review his essay or project upon completion. We would then discuss the accuracy of what he’d written and why it may not have been a part of the lesson.

Now days I generally just ask to see his bibliography to verify where he’s gone for the information and to assure it wasn’t off of a blog like this one, or worse! Then we still may discuss the information.

However, I will point out areas that need attention. Asking him to re-read what he wrote and if it makes sense to him in it’s current verbage.

Yeah, Yeah patty, I’ll apply for a teaching certification next week.

By Jeff

February 28, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

JustMe@11:07:

AMEN!!

Back in the day, when I was still teaching (oh wait, I just stopped a month ago!!), I assigned hw virtually every night, but 99/100 of the time I graded on completion. ATTEMPT ALL PROBLEMS and you got an EASY 100. Even then, I tried to limit it to roughly 20 - 30 problems a night. PIECE OF CAKE!

8/10 kids wouldn’t do it.

1/10 would do one or two problems and quit.

Even the one that actually did everything, I had SEVERAL times that it was clear that they just guessed.

BUT it was always quite clear that (HOPEFULLY) I had no parents doing their work…

Even the project I assigned in class for my Advanced Geometry class though, I gave them 3 days IN CLASS and 2 WEEKS from selection until presentation to get it done. I had at LEAST 4 groups out of 12 get LESS than a 25 on it!!! (Rubric was 5 categories, 5 points each, scaled to add up to 100)

By Jeff

February 28, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

jim:

If I assign a 20 page paper, I expect it to be HIS research and HIS thoughts and HIS verbiage. I don’t mind if you point out resources, or even if you suggest avenues of research. (Such as - assuming the report was about a topic of WWII of his choosing - you suggested he write about D-Day because your father was there.) What I would object to is if you then told him how to construct his paper IN ANY WAY.

By JustMe

February 28, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

jim d-

You asked for my thoughts, as a teacher, on what parents SHOULD be doing for their child. Here goes:

By SNY

February 28, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

Okay Teachers, this question is for all of you.

What do you do when you have a child that has waaaaaaayyyyyyyyy too much homework in all of their classes. Say in math they have 30-40 questions, that they are struggling on. Then they have a history chapter to read and do an assignment. Let’s not forget the Spanish homework, then you have English (sorry old school here) homework that consists of poetry that not even the teacher understands and to top it all off, the child doesn’t get off the bus until 5:15 or 5:30. Can someone please explain to me what these kids are supppose to do?

As a parent, I am shocked that the kids even have to energy to do it all, but I guess they have no choice in the matter.

By jim d

February 28, 2007 1:09 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Then you wouldn’t mind what I do.

point and case;

He just turned in a project on “A Clear and Present Danger” A portion of that project was to provide a plot summary of no more than 3 pages—Each page headered and double spaced #12 font. He struggled with this. He had 5 pages. Knowing he has a tendancy to use a lot of adjectives, I suggested he might go back and eliminate as many as possible. Which he did—cutting it to 4 pages. He then found a way to eliminate another page, and in my opinion left some gapping holes in the plot. If you’ve read this Clancey Novel, try to write a three page plot summary and convey the entire plot. It’s a great book but one with a lot of twists. I couldn’t do it.

By jim d

February 28, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

just me,

thanks, I guess 4 out of 5 isn’t bad. But on those rare nights he doesn’t have homework, he gets a little “down time”

By jim d

February 28, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this

Actually jeff,

He’s doing one on WW 1 as we speak, I know he’s doing it but I’ve not seen it yet. I’ll read over it when he thinks he’s done :-)

By Jeff

February 28, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

Jim:

Actually, CaPD was the first Clancy I ever read (in route to reading the ENTIRE Ryan series, and OWNING most of it!). It’s been several years though, and while there are a few memorable scences I remember (Ding’s introduction, the cellophane bomb dropped on the car, the fight through the jungle with Ryan dropping in on Clark and Chavez, etc), I’ll have to go back and reread and see if I can pull it off.

Gotta go get things set and start cleaning in preparation for the move to Warner Robins though. (Start in Macon tomorrow, I’m moving Saturday, and I have GOT to get this apartment cleaned and packed!)

BTW: Unrelated question:

Should I clean first or pack first?

By V for Vendetta

February 28, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this

To me this is the biggest difference between the kids who succeed and the kids who don’t. They know why they are in school. They may not like it, they may not always agree with it, but they know WHY they are there. That attitude comes from the parents. A parent acting as a resource or a support for their child is the ideal. I think JustMe describes that relationship perfectly. Although I must admit that I think that’s what Jim was getting at as well. I think Jim was asking what’s wrong with a parent who provides the same type of support a teacher would after school (correct me if I’m wrong Jim). The answer to that is easy - nothing. Again, that’s the idea relationship between help and homework. Example:

If I give a kid an essay assignment, I would love for their parent to look at the essay, edit the essay for simple (SIMPLE) grammar mistakes, and give SUGGESTIONS on content. That would more or less define what I do for kids who come to me after school. What is not OK is any kind of written help. If any of the parents words find their way into that essay then that parent has crossed the line. It seems so simple, but I suppose some parents just get caught up in the moment. I mean, let’s face it, driven students didn’t get to be that way because their parents were morons.

As my parents always said when I tried to pull a fast one on them: “You’re not smart because we’re stupid. Remember that.”

I did.

By jim d

February 28, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

V

that pretty much sums it up. but to put it a bit more bluntly. I already went to school and I’m too lazy to do it again.

As for the kid trying to pull a fast one? We just remind him we weren’t born old. That he will NEVER be able to get one over on us since between us, we have already been there / done that. (we grew up in the 60’s) What he’s yet to realize is that we don’t remember much of it! :-)

By jim d

February 28, 2007 1:43 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

That’s a no brainer, Pack 1st or you’ll be cleaning twice.

Best of luck!

By catlady

February 28, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

On the waayy too much homework question, I would want to talk to the teachers to find out why there seems to be so much. Is it really classwork that is undone and is coming home for homework? Is the child over-placed (in the wrong grade developmentally?) I would also look at what in the household can be done to free more time for the student. Why does the child get off the bus so late? Is there a 2 hour bus ride home? Why? I would also do an informal log of homework and time spent to take in with me—assignment, time spent, what else the child was doing, over a period of several weeks.

My youngest had a lot of homework in middle and high school because she took very demanding classes. She could have opted out of some of them, and taken regular advanced classes, but she is very competitive and wanted to set herself up for college.

By Janine

February 28, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

Welcome back SNY!!! I have missed your take on things. Re your question..“What do you do when you have a child that has waaaaaaayyyyyyyyy too much homework in all of their classes?” I can tell you what a colleague of mine did in similar situation with her child.She went to the principal and told him that the teachers/departments needed to coordinate their projects and homework assignments….[which we were required to do in my middle school.].Her complaint included the reality that there was little family time when her child got home from school late in the afternoon….and that participating in sports, which she felt was important, or any other extracurricular activity had become impossible if the schoolwork was to be done well.

By Janine

February 28, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this

Jeff I hope you will continue to visit this blog. Good luck and good wishes for happiness and peace in your new job.

By catlady

February 28, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

jim d, with me, it isn’t that I don’t remember, it is that I don’t remember CORRECTLY!

By Janine

February 28, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

catlady Love the idea of taking a log of assignments and time spent to the conference. I would also want a principal and dept. head there.

By dragonlady

February 28, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

Jim D:

I would be a lot more upset about the assignment: a 5 page essay over a Tom Clancey novel? and three pages of it plot summary? What has your child learned from that?

A Clancy novel is not in any way literature—it is to be read for entertainment. He is verbose, not a polished writer by any means. And 3 pages of plot summary does not show any type of critical thinking.

This is why I do not assign book reports.

Back on topic: I have had teachers write their children’s papers. I pull vocabulary out of the paper and ask the child to explain the word and he or she has nary a clue.

I don’t mind parents reading over the papers and making suggestions and/or corrections. But no re-writing.

By V for Vendetta

February 28, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

LOL Jim, I love it! Not being born old is a great way to put it. My dad just reminded me that he was in a war (Vietnam) so there wasn’t much I could do to surprise him.

Jim and Jeff, I understand what you mean about the Clancy books. While I’m not a huge fan, they are quite addictive. Once I cracked Without Remorse and Rainbow Six I couldn’t put them down. I totally understand where your coming from on your son’s project Jim, that’s a tough call. I always err on the side of length, if a kid needs more space for details (even if it’s mostly adjectives!) than more power to him.

Jeff, congrats on your new job. I’m sorry to see you leave the profession (although I myself am toying with the idea), but in the end you have to be true to yourself. Considering the current climate in education, I can hardly blame you. Good luck!

By jim d

February 28, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

just me,

ah yes those educational vacations.

We have a real blast with them.

Spent several days in the grand canyon rafting the colorado last summer with guides that both had degrees in geology. We both learned a lot.

this summer starts in the UP of MI. with trips to the bridge and the island, catch a family reunion then head south to visit the maritime museum at Sleeping Bear dunes Natl Sea shore, trips to Grand rapids and ann arbor to visit the Gerald Ford museum and library, side trips to MSU and UM to see if either schools science departments interest him. Then we catch a wedding for his oldest sister. (now there’s an educational expierence) before heading home.

HOWEVER; Spring break in Daytona watching the NCA Collegiate National Championships for cheerleaders and doing a bit of off shore fishing will provide a bit of entertainment value to his life. (and mine):-)

By Janine

February 28, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

V THat current climate in education you mention is what pushed me [and 5 others at my school] out.

By Jeff

February 28, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

Janine:

Thanks. I will more than likely be on MUCH more at night than during the day. (The new apt is roughly 30 miles from work, and work time is GREAT - 8:30 - 4:30!)

V:

Eh, teaching was ALWAYS a fight for me. Finally decided that I was tired of it. (Then come to find out the Super had intended for his daughter to have the job the entire time, but she didn’t graduate until December….)

Without Remorse is NOT one I would let a middle or even high schooler read. FAR to graphic. (Although nearly any adult male - at least the good ones - can truly understand why John Kelly became John Clark!!) I will grant, however, that it is by FAR my favorite Clancy. (And ladies: It has almost as much romance in it as a Nick Sparks book, you MAY enjoy it too, just be ready for some pretty brutal murders! For example, one scene that doesn’t give anything away is when Kelly makes a modified shotgun barrel, slams it into a guy’s chest, and pulls the trigger.)

Debt of Honor/ Executive Orders is also a great combo though. Only problem people in a post 9/11 world may have with DoH is the final scene though. Otherwise, I think both do a GREAT job of finishing the Ryan character, and EO has Ryan giving a speech that tells EXACTLY the kind of people we NEED on Capitol Hill, rather than the kind of person we have there now….

By jim d

February 28, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

Dragon lady,

I’m afraid I may not have been clear.

It’s nearly 20 page project as it stood when he turned it in.

He reduced 5 pages of plot summary to 3.

Now, if you consider it a work of literature or not is really irrelavant. He was allowed to choose whatever book he wanted to. It was his choice. To me that would indicate a lack of critical thinking—the damn thing is nearly 700 pages of small print (paperback version). I’d have found something a lot shorter to read, myself.

By jim d

February 28, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

SNY,

Too much homework?

We expierenced this too for several years until we discovered what he was bringing home was what everyone else was allowed to do in class. Seems the teachers were taking advantage of his being in the gifted program by asking him to help some of the other students in his regular classes during the time he should have been allowed to do his work.

If your child is in the gifted program, make sure teachers aren’t taking advantage of your child. It seems to be common practice for teachers to do this.

By catlady

February 28, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this

jim d, in my experience gifted students ARE expected to do both the gifted work and the regular classroom work, but maybe that is just the model our county uses. Gifted is additional, rather than INSTEAD OF, around here.

By catlady

February 28, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

Oops, jim d. I did not read your post very well the first time. I guess it is another benefit of getting older…Please, let me blame it on that! Your concern about your child being used as a tutor is quite on target, and I am sorry I did not read more carefully (I am a teacher of Reading First—I only have to call the words fast, not understand them!) :)

By jim d

February 28, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

Well cat,

in that case I’d say you did an excellent job.

By catlady

February 28, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this

:( My feelings would be hurt if it were not so terribly TRUE. I DIBELed my class today (a test of calling words in connected text (sentences) fast that RF uses to measure your success) and the kids who went the fastest have Fs in comprehension, AS USUAL.

By Teacher, Too

February 28, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

I believe in homework. Most of what I give is long-term assignments (projects). I can easily tell when parents do the projects for students and when students do their own work. I tend to grade a tiny bit easier on those students who complete their own work.

I do believe homework is important for many reasons. But mostly, students need to learn how to manage their time, especially starting in middle school. When students get to high school, they get involved in many different extracurricular activites and/or part-time jobs (great for the college resume), so they need to learn how to budget their time. If they have not had homework in middle school, then how do they learn how to study/ complete assignments at home? What happens when Mom and Dad aren’t at college with them and the professor doesn’t really care if the kid passes or fails the class?

I agree with the earlier post- school is a job. When I was in school (eons ago), I had a part time job, was involved with my religious organization, and took honor’s classes. I had a lot of homework, but I also learned how to budget my time. When I went to college, I was one of the few girls in my dorm that didn’t struggle with grades. I knew how to allocate my study time and my social time.

By jim d

February 28, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

Teach too,

Time management today is a tough one with kids running wide open 100% of the time, they really don’t have any concept of how to manage time—they just go wide open all the time so when they do have a free moment to enjoy down time they get, shall we say, involved and loose all track of time.

I find it difficult, at best, to reinforce these skills when very little liesure time exists in my childs life.

This may be why so many struggle when moving on to college.

Am I making sense here or should I rephrase what I’m saying?

By jim d

February 28, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

Teach too,

Have you ever checked what a child does at home against what they do in class? Or what they have done in previous years?

Here’s the problem I see with some teachers making the call as to if a child did the work. I have a child that will brush right through his in class assignments but if given 4 weeks to do a project, he will spend and ungodly amount of time using the entire 4 weeks to perfect his project.

How would a teacher recognize this trait in a child in determining who had help from a parent and who actually spent an enormous amount of time perfecting the assignment?

By HS Teacher Too

February 28, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

Thanks to those of you who thought I was on target with my philosophies. I try to do the thing that is most fair for my students. To that end, I always tell them that I would rather they come to me and say “I had a late night/hard night/bad night/lazy night last night and I’m not really ready,” than that they quickly try to copy someone else’s work to feign preparedness. That’s why I don’t even typically grade for completeness on homework. (And I would be lying if I didn’t admit that in college there were occasionally problem sets where, had I only one night to do them, I wouldn’t have know how or where to start. So I try to recognize that.)

In terms of how much parental involvement I tihnk is ideal, I often find that parents who try to explain math only frustrate their kids even more, because they introduce other ways to solve, etc., and confuse their already-confused kids. Now that’s not always true, but often enough it is. I like parents who take notice that there IS homework and check with their kids whether it’s been done, how they feel they understood it, and maybe honestly don’t do too much more than that.

As for students getting too much combined hw in their classes — teaching high school, it’s hard to coordiante among the various classes the students have, but I do try to be mindful about big projects and when I hear the scuttlebutt and grumbling (and I always do!) I try to make my own accomodations. I have found that many times, particularly with big English projects/papers, the assigning teachers don’t have much leeway if they want to keep in mind their own grading timelines and needs. So when big things come around, I try to adjust my own assignments accordingly. I’ve very rarely found that I couldn’t manage to be productive in my classes, and still give my kids a break.

Now, as for the 45 questions per night, as a teacher, and I can only imagine as a parent one day, and I KNOW from being a student, I can’t STAND busy work! That’s another reason I don’t tend to grade hw — if a kid really gets it and can accurately judge that that night, their science hw is more valuable than their math hw, and they can get their math concepts after 5 or 6 problems … then skip the rest! Absolutely!

So back to the main question — I like parents who know what’s going on, but really are hands-off as to the actual doing of the stuff. :) highly technical terms, I know!

By HS Teacher Too

February 28, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

jim d— I know your comment wasn’t directed to me, but I agree with you about time management when most of the time it’s all already blocked out and there is little discretionary management involved. But unfortunately, that’s exactly the lesson the kids need to learn.

It’s a lot easier to say “I need a break” and not work when you know you really ought to, than it is to once again buckle down when every cell in your body wants to take that break. But, developing that maturity is the exact battle that kids need to fight, precious little leisure time or not.

Trust me, I can be empathetic to their plight, and often am; but there is also a necessary evil involved and at some point, you have to cut the reins.

I agree with you that the jump from overly-structured lives to hardly-structured lives is a big part of why kids struggle in college, but I offer that time-management is only a small part of that adjustment in general.

By Teacher, Too

February 28, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

Jim D-

I wonder if some parents overschedule their kids, resulting in the kids’ inability to manage their time.

I do think that parents who work (single parents/ both parents) and aren’t home when the kids get home, aren’t always aware of what the kids are doing. Many times, kids are playing video games and watching tv instead of studying…

Aside here: I know millions of people enjoy video games… I’m not one of them. Could someone please explain to me just one positive thing that comes from playing these? I see nothing of value from these games in my students’ behaviors- only negatives, such as not completing homework and short attention spans.

By gary furman

February 28, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this

Great responses to this one! I am a public high school teacher in Georgia. The percent of “stellar” students is still far too small in the public schools. I would define “stellar” as self-motivated, well-behaved, high-IQ kids in AP programs. As far as homework goes, I have seen very, very little of parental “help” in children’s assignments. Most of the parents don’t care to be involved in their child’s lives (sad, but sign of the times) or lack the knowledge or time to help do the math, science, and other work kids are assigned. I WISH they would help!!!!! The biggest problem we in the public high schools face is parent and student apathy. The 60% state graduation rate is directly a result of this.

By Jeff

February 28, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this

T2:

Problem solving skills are a big one. Not so much with sporting games (though even they have logic skills required), but with other types (RPGs, first person shooters, adventure-type - such as Age of Empires types) problem solving skills and fast thinking are a MUST. (Particularly with really good - and set on difficult levels - first person shooters.)

Also, puzzle games such as cubis and tetris are GREAT for increasing both of the above noted characteristics.

I will grant, however, that a student is NOT likely to learn any new facts playing any of these games unless the game uses real facts as part of its story line (such as many of the WWII and Vietnam games).

By Teacher, Too

February 28, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

I wonder how much homework Westminster or Lovett gives to students? Does anyone know? If we want our students to be as successful as the elite private schools, then perhaps we need to consider what their expectations are. (It will never happen because public education seeks to “educate” all students, not just those who can pass the entrance test and afford the tuition.)

By SNY

February 28, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this

Thanks for all of the comments about too much homework. The question was actually for a friend who lives down the street from me. Her daughter is in 8th grade and the poor child gets up in the morning, goes to school, comes home does homework and goes to bed. Nothing else. She isn’t in AP classes and she is actually bringing home homework that was assigned on the board. She finishes her classwork at school. She is too afraid that she won’t have time to finish all of it at home if she doesn’t. They get out of school at 4:00 and it takes them about 1-1.5 hours to get home from school. Our stop is the last stop of the bus route. I think that it is a long day and that the kids should have some down time, but most of the kids parents in her cluster feel the same way.

Now my child on the other hand, is only in 4th grade and we are adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing fractions. Oh, lucky me. The problem with her is that she feels like she has to be the 1st one done and she makes little stupid mistakes. I keep telling her that I would rather her be the last one in the class done, but get 100%. Instead of being the 1st on done and get a 80%. I have no idea how to get this point across to her. If anyone has any suggestions, I’d love to hear them.

BTW, for the people that acknowleged that I was back, thanks it felt good to see that you noticed.

Teacher Too, I have no idea what the hype is all about. I don’t understand them either.

By Stacey

February 28, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

Excellent topic! I have a few stories to tell regarding this topic:

I admit to going overboard on helping my son with his (kindergarten) “Fall Scenes” collage. He cut pages from magazines and sales papers of scarecrows, fall leaves, pumpkins, etc by himself. Once I finished “helping him” glue the pictures on (looked like Martha Stewart’s best work), he ran in with a handful of colorful leaves & acorns that “would have ruined his poster.” He took the initiative to turn in his leaves and acorns anyway and got “Gold Star” and “Great Job” stickers on his. LOL

By Fulton County Mom

February 28, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

How will the child learn if the parent does the work?

That said, I am guilty of helping out….two assignments last week required “fact finding” on the internet. The child chose the topic, we looked at facts (but I took the notes) then we discussed what we saw/read. The child wrote the report, I proofed it (spelling/punctuation) and then she recopied it….both the rough draft and the final were sent in to the teacher. Neither report probably told the PSS version of the subjects we looked up (ex: The report on an African American for African American History Month does not once mention race as part of the paper) but they were factual, my child’s understanding of what we looked at and discussed, and on the topic of the child’s choosing.

Does that mean I did the work for the child? I do not think so, I think we used the opportunity presented to learn something together.

I do know that when I took Home Ec (ages ago!) I had to decorate a cake at home. One kid brought in what was obviously a bakery cake and when I mentioned it to the teacher (as an aside) she said “probably so, but since we cannot prove it I have to grade it as is” now how stupid is that!

PS @ Jeff: Good Luck tomorrow!

By jsmom

February 28, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this

Just to throw my 2 cents in, a kid who is bringing home too much homework could also be bored in class. At least that was my case. I was a borderline student in Science and Math- not quite ready for the ‘advanced’ class but ahead of the ‘slower’ class, so I was used as a tutor in 4-8th grade and I brought home tons of homework- that was homework plus classwork. (In my 6th grade math class, my assigned seat was next to a guy who had trouble reading, and my job was to help him read the assignments. This was in the early 90s.)But mostly I was bored to tears in class and after several conferences was given permission to work ahead of the class, which would be revoked if I made a “C” or below on a test.

And the only “help” I got from my parents was 1)typing a paper (because they didn’t want us on the computer for fear we’d mess it up- again late 80s early 90s. But it was typed as it was written, mom wouldn’t change a thing.) 2) big projects that needed construction advice- as in, “you might want to get XYZ out of the garage to hold that together til the glue dries” or 3) asking for a review for a test.

By HS Junior

February 28, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this

I shouldn’t be sitting here.

I have a 4 pg double spaced essay to write for AP Lit. about 30 very involved problems for honors chemistry. 3 flute solos to practice (first chair). drumline music to learn. A Spanish worksheet. An AP US history test on Friday. 30 definitions for AP European History due Friday.

It’s a lot of work, but I chose to take these classes. Will I do anything besides homework tonight? No. But there are weekends and slower days and I like to learn.

Next year I’m taking easier classes, so in the meantime I’m sucking it up (mostly; some days I do get lazy and just blow stuff off).

And no, my parents never did my homework or projects. They did help me proofread papers and understand math concepts. But I know lots of people’s parents did their work for them. Their parents also did their chores for them and gave them new cars, and they’ll have no idea how to deal with real life in a couple years.

By HS Junior

February 28, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this

SNY: I used to do that too, when I was in fourth grade.

Then I started being grounded for having B’s in math and I quit.

I really have to do homework now.

By Fulton County Mom

February 28, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this

BTW, my child is young…(under 3rd grade). Additionally, I will help with art projects to minimize the mess or if we need use special tools (I cut out the base of a puppet, stitched the arms for reinforcement, and used a special glue to stick a “jewel” on it that the child liked)…the child cut the clothes, fixed the hair, glued the face on etc…..so because I did help on the parts that needed special tools does the child deserve a lower grade?

By Fulton County Mom

February 28, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this

@ Jeff:

pack first if you can afford it PAY someone to clean the old place

you will still have to clean some of the new place (do u really want to use a toliet u didn’t personally santize first?) and then unpack and then clean again.

Those move out things (with leases) can be a real witch so getting a proffessional cleaning is good way to go.

By catlady

February 28, 2007 5:28 PM | Link to this

I noted on this blog the other day that I have only one “behind” boy in reading class who does not spend an inordinate amount of time daily with a video game or computer or tv set on. In my experience, my “behind” girls have other distracting issues (too much phone, relationship commotion, etc.) rather than video-induced non-achievement. While these are the stats for this year, it holds true for the last 10, at least, and seems to be getting worse. I’d like to see parents unplug/turn off/get rid of all these things for 6 months and see the difference. Yeah, the first couple of months would be hard for everyone, because it becomes an addiction for the child and the parents, but INHO the rewards are incredible.

I have never had a “rusher” child in my family, but as a teacher I won’t accept the work of the rusher. The rushers I have at school want to get finished and go on to things they perceive as more enjoyable, so I make sure they do NOT go on to these things. I can tell you a perfectionist is also maddening, but I can cut them a little more slack because they usually do a very good job when they can bear to be finished.

By Janine

February 28, 2007 6:04 PM | Link to this

Jeff FultonCountyMom has a good idea if you can afford it. When my mom passed away I had a cleaning co. come in and do a “move out” cleaning for emotional reasons as well as just not wanting to do it…..{she lived in an apt. close to us]…I still feel like it was a great deal. I would recommend that if you can…I hope happy times are ahead for you.

By Janine

February 28, 2007 6:04 PM | Link to this

Jeff FultonCountyMom has a good idea if you can afford it. When my mom passed away I had a cleaning co. come in and do a “move out” cleaning for emotional reasons as well as just not wanting to do it…..{she lived in an apt. close to us]…I still feel like it was a great deal. I would recommend that if you can…I hope happy times are ahead for you.

By JustMe

March 1, 2007 8:08 AM | Link to this

SNY -

I am responding to your post about a child with too much homework….

Sorry, but as a teacher I would have to call “BS” on this one. First, have a heart-to-heart with the child. It is more than likely that these assignments had been given days ago and the child simply chose to ignore them until the night before. This is NOT the teachers fault!

YOU should take this as a learning opportunity for your child to teach them about responsibilities and time management. For example….

So your child rides the bus home? Why not read the poem on the bus ride? If the poem is really that difficult, odds are the teacher simply wanted the students to become familiar with it and not really do some critical analysis of it so they can discuss it in class the next day.

Also, if a teacher assigned 40 problems to do on Tuesday, and they are due on Friday, DON’T wait until Thursday night to look at them! Work a few every night. Another benefit of this approach is that now the child can ask for help from the teacher if they get stuck.

This seems to me kinda like parents thinking the worst of teachers without really investigating the issue. Teachers do not exist simply to tormet their children!

By SNY

March 1, 2007 9:28 AM | Link to this

Just Me,

Have you been on a school bus with middle school children lately, you cannot read a poem and understand it with that kind of racket on the bus. Second, all of the homework that I mentioned above was given on one day at school and was due the next day at school. I have my facts straight on that. Also, this is not a kid that doesn’t study hard, or has problems with responsiblility and time management. This problem is with the whole team. It really doesn’t matter, having 40 problems in one night is too much math homework, IMHO anyway. It doesn’t take that many problems for a teacher or a student to figure out if they understand the concept or not. Anyway, I find it interesting that you just immediately thought that the child was full of BS. That tells me alot about how you think and what you think of these students and how hard some of them try.

Oh, another question on topic. Last night I was going over subtracting mixed fractions with my daughter and she was forgetting a step. So, I showed her how to do a problem, step by step, and let her finished the rest. Now, the problem that I worked was an assigned problem but she had 9 more to do. Was that okay or should I have handled it a different way? The good news is that after I did that problem and she noticed what step she was missing, she didn’t miss that step again. So, I’m hoping that I did the right thing. I am so worried about getting the right result in the wrong way. I’m trying very hard to get the right result the right way instead of getting it by any means necessary which is the way I used to do it. Someone, let me know.

Lisa B. I know that you’ll tell me the truth.

By catlady

March 1, 2007 9:35 AM | Link to this

JustMe, your response to the homework question was the unvarnished version of my first point in my response. Frequently, a child who SEEMS to have too much homework is either catching up with undone classwork or has postponed work till the last minute. That is why investigating the claim is a good idea, and why taking to the conference a homework log with the assignment (as presented by the child) and the time needed to finish is a good idea. What I have seen is that if the child who has been procrastinating sees that Mom is going to check with the teacher about the “homework”, the problem frequently solves itself: the blame game is up. The student cannot play “Poor Me”. During the conference it will be revealed whether what has been reported to be that night’s homework is actually what it is.

Also, by having that homework log (say, for 2-3 weeks beforehand, compiled daily) completed and available, if there is a great deal of real homework being assigned nightly, the teachers can examine the workload.

Also, it makes the parent recognize and be sensitive to the atmosphere the homework is being done in—is the TV on? Are there constant cell calls? All these would turn a respectable-length assignment into a very lengthy assignment. 40 multiplication problems with constant interruptions can take a whole lot longer than it should take if there were no interruptions. Of course, keeping an accurate log, to the minute, is important.

By catlady

March 1, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

SNY, I think Just Me’s comment was on the mark BASED ON GENERAL EXPERIENCE. I would say at least 90% of the complaints on homework I have seen over the last 3 decades are due to a child missrepresenting the facts, on purpose or not, about the assignment. That THIS child is not missrepresenting may be true, but from considerable experience missrepresentation happens a LOT. It isn’t being down on the child; it is just an observation based on past experience.If it IS a genuine problem with lack of coordination among the team, the homework log will be of temendous help in establishing it. A conference, before more pity and attention is dished out, would be much more helpful in solving the problem.

As to your assistance to your daughter, I would applaud you. You showed her the error and how to correct it, AND GOT OUT OF HER WAY. Sounds good to me!

By SNY

March 1, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this

Believe it or not, the student in question doesn’t want her mother to go to the school because she doesn’t want to cause a problem. She just says that she will deal with it until next year. I hope that she doesn’t burn herself out in the meantime. Of course, there is a positive side to this, she will know exactly how to budget her time later in life. BTW, the parent in question doesn’t allow TV or phone calls during the week at all. Pretty strict if you ask me but it seems to work for her children. Plus as she says, for the longest time, they couldn’t afford cable anyway. Working on schoolwork during the week is nothing new to them. She also is home by the time they finish their afternoon snack so she knows that they are doing their homework according to her rules. She is very involved and works everything in her life around making sure her kids understand how important their education is for them and to her. She is single and I just don’t know how she does it. I have so much respect for her. That’s why I try to help as much as possible. Sometimes the kids come to me for math help. And even then, she only gives them 20-30 mins. to get to my house, ask the questions, finish the work and get back home. She is so funny, but they love and respect her for it. I do to. So as far as distractions go, they are few and far between for these particular students. I can’t speak for any others that their teachers may come across. You guys must see and hear it all for you to think that every student is the one not being responsible.

By catlady

March 1, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

You know, it would still be very good if the mom goes to the school to check this out. If this group of teachers is giving too much, as a group, there are a lot of students being burdened. The concerns of her daughter are important, of course, but if mom goes as a concerned parent (rather than as an accuser) she could help her daughter and others. Plus, it would be helpful to the girl to see further evidence of her mother’s interest in her school life. And, I hate to say it, but if the student has been stretching the truth, it would explain her reluctance for her mom to investigate. However, a mom as concerned, hardworking, and involved would not want to reinforce her daughter’s complaints, if they have been unfounded. My children always knew that I would check out and communicate with the school about any of my concerns, so I could better support the school and my children.

I did the same “gig” this mom did, and communication with the school will do nothing but enhance her children’s education—it is part of the successful foundation it sounds like she has laid, with her strict rules. I’d love to have a room full of students with such supportive parents!

By teach overseas

March 1, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

SNY-

Most schools (public and private) will have a homework policy that should be stated in the handbook. It may have a homework schedule- math on certain days, spelling on certain days or it may have a suggested time frame for certain grades.

40 math problems seems like a lot- both for the kid and the teacher! Who is really going to grade 40 math problems times 20-30 kids! Not me. I would be a bit skeptical- especially as she doesn’t want you to go and talk to the teacher!

I think it sounds like classwork that didn’t get done or perhaps she wrote the assignment down wrong? Could the assignment have been questions 1-40 odds or evens?

It seems to me that if all the kids in the class are really getting that much homework- you would not be the only parent upset. Call up a few of the other parents and find out what is up. Then- if all of this is true- you can go in as a group of concerned parents and deal with the issue that way.

By disgustedcobbparent

March 1, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

Looking back on many of the homework assignments and projects over the years (even in honors and AP classes) provides further evidence that 1)public schools are failing our children and 2)most teachers were not at the top of their graduating classes. I recall several times telling my children to stop “working” and go to bed to get a good night’s sleep, and then watching Letterman while mindlessly finishing their various arts and “crap” type (such as cutting, pasting, coloring) and other (such as crossword puzzles and word searches)stupid assignments due the next day. I told them it was “just get it out of your life” homework — (often very time consuming) assignments with no meaningful educational objective for most kids that age. They are two extremely intelligent, hard-working, decent kids (one in high school and one in college) who are doing just fine, thank you.

By SNY

March 1, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

I will give my friend all of your advice but I really doubt that the student is making anything up. This is the 1st year she has ever had this problem and all of her teachers sign her agenda book with the homework in it. Both mom and the teachers initial the book for accuracy. She does this with all of her children until they reach 9th grade. She feels that by then, they should have the routine down packed and they shouldn’t have to be checked up on as much. She has a 9th grader, an 8th grader and a 5th grader (her niece that she is raising). I just can’t see this child forgetting everything that her mother has taught her over the past 8 years of her school career.

Maybe she’ll go up there anyway. She isn’t skeptical of her daughter because they have a bond and a trust like non other that I have seen. Plus, the teachers are looking and signing off on the agenda book daily as well. But you know, that odd or even thing could be something to look at. Maybe she didn’t write it down correctly and the teacher was rushing to sign the book. But she does still seem to have a lot of math homework. She says that they do alot of work during class time as well that the teacher collects at the end of the period.
I was wondering the same thing about having to grade all of that homework. I guess maybe she grades on completion not accuracy. Either way the student is an “A”, “B” child, so whatever they are doing is working. But this particular child likes to learn. Maybe that’s why she isn’t stressing over it as much. But for me, as a parent, I would want my child to do more than attend school and do homework. It is my friend’s call, not mine. It’s her daughter.

By disgustedcobbparent

March 1, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

Bridget, I’m curious — did you decide to delete my post or did it just not reach you?

By jim d

March 1, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

Teach too;

re: February 28, 2007 3:53 PM

Benefits of video games.

Indeed there are cognitive benefits of playing video games: pattern recognition, system thinking, even patience can be enhanced by playing some of these games.

By Diane B

March 1, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this

I’ve read almost all of the 90+ comments to date, and I’m rather stunned by the vehemence so many parents have about their kid’s homework. I feel a bit of a slacker to admit that it has been probably a year or so since I checked homework — as I tell them, “I’ve already DONE high school.” Besides, when it comes to physics or calculus, I’m not much help, anyway :-) The only thing that I DO help on is organization, helping them prioritize. Sometimes they get overwhelmed at the amount they have to do, but when we sit down and look at it and plan, “this, then this, then this …”, all seems to fall into place. Of course, it falls into place much faster if the TV isn’t on, if they aren’t multi-tasking on Facebook or AIM, or texting each other on cell phones. I DO “happen to walk by” and check out the task bar on the computer, and the extraneous stuff gets bumped, fast. :-)

By HS Teacher Too

March 1, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

SNY — I love how you helped with the homework. That’s the kind of help that is productive. Ultimately, the student comes to class not just having it done, but having spent some time understanding it. That’s all we can ask.

Disgusted — As a teacher, I hate to hear your concerns, because I know that they are all-too-true and all-too-frequent. See my earlier post, I HATE busy work! On the other hand, I have occasionally given crosswords, and the critical thinking that goes into solving one is often the underlying lesson. So sometimes, what might seem outwardly as busy work, really does have good value intentions. Whether that’s the minority or majority of the time depends on the teacher(s).

By jim d

March 1, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

SNY,

February 28, 2007 4:15 PM

First one done?

This seems to be important to them at that age. My son suffered from the same affliction. We just kept emphasizing that it wasn’t a race.

Fortuinately it appears to be something they outgrow.

By disgustedcobbparent

March 1, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

I should have added that my kids are doing fine in spite of, not because of, attending their so called high-achieving east Cobb schools. Don’t believe the real estate agents!

By disgustedcobbparent

March 1, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this

HS Teacher Too

I understand and agree with you about your use of crosswords. But how about for a one semester block schedule AP History class which requires tons of college level reading and writing. Any many of the crossword answers were just fillers having nothing to do with US history! Also, IMO lengthly word search assigments have no place in the high school curriculum.

By jim d

March 1, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

SNY,

One last thought on the 2 much homework issue.

I found myself in a similar situation on one occassion and simply emailed the teacher to ask what she was actually giving the kids in the way of home work every day? Explaining that I wanted to be sure my child was completing all of his work and asked her to email me a copy of what the daily assignments would be for a couple of weeks so I could follow up on his homework assignments.

In my case she was actually giving quite a bit of homework, Anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour and a quarter. She quit sending it to me after only about a week but I noticed the amount of homework lessend considerably shortly after that.

Since this is a single working parent she may find this approach beneficial rather than having to take time from work to visit the teacher.

By catlady

March 1, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

disgusted, your concerns about curriculum should be brought to the attention of the principal and curriculum director for your county. Perhaps they are not aware of this.

By HS Teacher Too

March 1, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

disgusted, I’m with you on that. AT least make the crossword valuable! I could imagine a ton of ways that a crossword could be a unique, valuable, interesting way to teach history, introduce a concept, etc., and it sounds like the teacher missed the boat on all of it.

The real shame is that lazy teachers like that make even the good ones look bad. I’m on your side.

By Lee

March 2, 2007 9:00 AM | Link to this

A few observations:

By Lisa B.

March 2, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

T, too think 2-3 hours of homework is too much for elementary children. To have that much every single night is also a hardship on middle school children who have lives outside of school. I think part of the problem is that some children simply don’t finish, or sometimes even start, classwork. Incomplete classwork turns into additional homework. In my son’s math classes the last two years, the students are assigned 60 problems per day. I’d always heard middle school kids get buried work, so I started emailing his teacher when he had no math homeowork. She said he always finished all his work at school, and it was correct, so there was no problem. My son’s best friend brought home at least 50 of the 60 math problems every night. Ug!

In my 4th grade class we have about 30 math problems daily, Science and Social Studies vocabulary and lesson review questions daily, language skills daily, and assigned reading and spelling for homework. If students don’t finish classwork, it also becomes homework. About half my class NEVER takes home additional homework. A couple of students draw, try to write nad pass notes, etc., and take home ALL classwork as additional homework. the rest of the children are somewhere in between finishing everything, or finishing nothing in class. Most of the teachers I know do as I do, and allow reasonable classtime to couple classwork. We all have a few every year who don’t start on assignments until the rest are finished.

By luvs2teach

March 2, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this

Lee:

• Many teachers at my public school (no, not all, I’ll admit) DO post homework online. I typically post a week at a time, although I’ll post projects and tests a couple weeks to a month in advance. I know many HS teachers have their entire semester mapped out, and they often post an entire semester online - that’s very difficult to do though in subjects like math, where the assignment might change depending on what get covered in class.

• I’d like to know what happened to study hall as well - how am I supposed to give extra help to a student who can’t come early of late?

• Is there a connection between the amount of homework assigned and tests scores? In my county, the schools with the highest test scores, also give out the most homework. I still think 2 - 3 hours for ES is excessive - I like the ten minute rule - 10 minutes per grade level (with reading everyday).

• I agree helping is good - doing is not - sometimes there is a fine line :-)

And, boy, it was hard to sit back and let my children walk out the door with some projects that were less than I would do, but…ya gotta do, whatcha gotta do!

By Ginger

March 7, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

My stepdaughter’s mother always did her homework for her until the stepdaughter came to live with me. This child has no idea how to succeed at anything or how to accomplish anything on her own. I wonder if, in the future, her mother is going to accompany my stepdaughter to work every day for the rest of her life so that she can do the work that her daughter cannot, will not, and does not know how to do. And the funny thing is all those years that my stepdaughter’s mother was doing her homework, she never managed to get better than a 60 on any given assignment. Not only did she do my stepdaughter a real disservice by doing her homework, she could not even do it well enough to get her a passing grade. Idiot!