Get Schooled

By Jeff

February 15, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

MHO:

I was a Joint Enrollment student starting Spring Semester of my junior year of HS. To me, that program is FAR better than AP.

Why?

a) Interaction with college students. You learn REAL quick that a world exists outside of the HS social angst, and that is a MAJOR benefit!

b) You can take as many classes as you want.

c) If you Joint Enroll at an accredited 4 year school, you can transfer those credits nearly anywhere, which is NOT the case with AP classes.

d) You get an idea of what real college professors are ACTUALLY like, not what some HS teacher TELLS you they are like.

By catlady

February 15, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

By wwww

February 15, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

AP should only be open to select students recommended by past teachers. It should NOT be open by parent request. Too many students who aren’t ready take the course. As a result, SOME AP classes have been dumbed down, hence the 47% who fail the exams.

The College Board says more students than ever before are taking AP level classes … trust me, it’s not that students have suddenly become more intelligent and hard working. They’re the same as they’ve always been.

Years ago, the College Board figured out a very shrewd way to make loads of money. And they are doing just that.

Jeff had a great point - joint enrollment is such a better use of time.

By Maria

February 15, 2007 12:39 PM | Link to this

During my junior and senior years of high school (1996 - 1998), I did a combination of joint enrollment and AP courses. Jeff, I agree that joint enrollment is a really different experience from AP. My joint enrollment classes were mostly lecture-based, with very few grades and assignments figuring in to our final average. We had to take our midterm and final exams very seriously — a poor grade on either one would bring down your grade for the whole course. Plus, the profs didn’t buy into the notion of, ahem, “edutainment.” They couldn’t have cared a rip if their lectures bored us. It was our responsibility to listen and take notes and learn.

My AP classes relied more on group projects and keeping journals and other highschoolish things. The best classes — AP U.S. History and AP English Lit — taught me a lot about thinking critically and reading between and beyond the lines. They were the highlights of my school day. My AP English class, in particular, was a place where a literary nerd like me felt comfortable speaking up and getting philosophical about books we were reading. The worst ones — AP Spanish comes to mind — were poorly organized and lacked the drilling of skills we needed for the test. I’d venture to say that a lackluster AP teacher — one who gives his/her students false confidence for the AP test — may be worse than no AP teacher at all. Seriously, for any super-duper motivated students out there, you ARE able to take the AP test in any subject without having taken the AP class for that subject. I had a friend who took the AP Government test even though we had no AP Gov class offered at our school. She passed! I think she works for a Senator now.

By jim d

February 15, 2007 01:00 PM | Link to this

Ah but my sons school of choice won’t really accept either one. Well kind of. They do issue credits for the AP but require demonstrated skill levels to recieve them. In other words a student must be tested again in the subject matter and score at least a 4.

I suspect more than a few kids that tested in their freshman or sophmore years have forgotten a lot and may struggle on the retest. So what do they really gain?

By dragonlady

February 15, 2007 01:01 PM | Link to this

You might be interested to know that for the 2007 fall year, AP courses must submit and pass an audit in order to be labeled “Advanced Placement.” I had to send in a thorough syllabus of my course to the college board folks including all papers and grading criteria, all novels and plays read, all authors taught in poetry and short stories. I am glad to do this because my course is not watered down and I feel it genuinely deserves to be called AP.

This audit appears to be an attempt to weed out courses that schools call AP which are, in fact, not nearly as demanding.

The other end of the joint enrollment situation is that the only college our students have an opportunity to attend offers classes that are much easier than our AP classes and are basically a waste of time. The students are much more prepared to go off to college having had a round of the advanced placement courses we offer—Eng. Lit., Calculus, Chemistry, Economics and Govt. Our school is planning on adding Art History, Latin, Physics and Biology next year. Some of these subjects are not even taught at the small college in our town.

I have taught AP English since 1983, and I would stack my class with its multiple readings and papers up against any entering freshmen classes on any college campus I can think of.

I don’t pick and choose my students—they all know how hard these classes are and don’t take them unless they are willing to do the work.

And Jeff, our students have discovered that colleges recognize the AP label, but many of the larger universities have not heard of our local college and thus will not accept transfers of those grades because they have no idea of the quality of the work. Of course, if you are in Atlanta and are doing joint enrollment at Emory or Tech, you don’t have that problem.

One of my AP students discovered his 5 in English was not accepted at Harvard (although he was given elective credit) and another found out Duke wouldn’t take his 5 (although he was given elective credit). But those are the only two instances I know of personally of colleges not taking AP scores.

In our small town for the brighter and more motivated students, AP is definitely the way to go. Statistics show that students who have taken 2 or more AP classes are more likely to actually graduate than students who have taken none.

By mmm

February 15, 2007 01:04 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure what question Bridget wants us to debate, which has been the case for many of the recent blogs, so I’ve found myself posting less often.

We all seem to agree that: 1.Only a fraction of students state-wide are ready for college level work in Georgia high schools. 2.Half of those that take the classes don’t pass the test either because a)the material was dumbed down which wasn’t evident until test time, b.) child was allowed or pushed into college level work before they were ready, or c.)this doesn’t produce credit for just showing up.

All these observations don’t take an AP graduate to understand, so can we have another topic or different question that is worthy of our blogger’s time?

By JustMe

February 15, 2007 01:06 PM | Link to this

I was a joint enrollment student and know the benefits of it. I am an AP teacher and know the benefits of that.

Joint enrollment is fine, but the student has to have transportation which is not always possible. And, the high school student does miss out on a lot of their senior year stuff in high school because they are too often on the college campus.

AP courses are not for everyone. I fear that the “powers” are pushing students into AP classes when they are not ready - thus the scores on the AP tests. I feel that students should only be in AP with recommendations from previous teachers and grades in previous classes.

Yes, a student can pay to take the AP test in a subject without ever having the AP class. This is possible.

But, the State will only pay for the AP test of the student takes the AP course in high school. I think that this is fair.

By high school teacher

February 15, 2007 01:07 PM | Link to this

I like your comments, Maria. Most high school teachers see the value of lecture based courses, but alas, in the days of NCLB, lectures are frowned upon by the administration; lecture teachers are unimaginative and can’t reach all levels of students. Instead, we must document the use of learning focused strategies and graphic organizers. The adverse effect of “No Child Left Behind” is “No Child Gets Ahead.” Oh well…

Many districts are pressured by the State to increase their AP enrollment. Other districts won’t fund an AP section of only 6 students, so they recruit to pump up the numbers. Hence, the high failure rate on the tests.

My concern about joint-enrollment: the high school experience itself is important to many students. Joint enrollment kids miss out on pep rallies and the like. And Jeff, many colleges won’t accpet joint enrollment credit, even if it is from an accredited university. My advice is to ask the colleges of your interest before taking JE classes.

By AR

February 15, 2007 01:07 PM | Link to this

I was not able to get my senior son to take any AP classes, but my daughter did when she was in high school. One benefit of AP classes, regardless of how they do on the test is that they have all year to learn a subject like US HIstory, rather than getting it all packed into one semester. That’s what I liked about AP courses. Block scheduling has probably done more to dumb down curriculum than anything. Once it started, when our daughter was a sophomore, she never had any homework again and I think learned less! Of course, that’s a topic for another day.

By luvs2teach

February 15, 2007 01:10 PM | Link to this

AP classes should only reach a fraction of students, because only a fraction of high school students are capable of college level work - and that’s what AP should be - collegelevel.

As far as schools not being able to offer as many AP choices, perhaps schools and/or systems could jointly offer classes at a common location. Perhaps they could use online options with ocasional face-time and supervised tests - much like college online course do now.

I found Jeff’s and Maria’s comparison’s of joint enrollment vs AP to be very enlightening.

By Jeff

February 15, 2007 01:12 PM | Link to this

dragon:

If your school is a 4 year program, it shouldn’t have been an issue. I personally went to Kennesaw State, so I KNOW all of mine would have transferred pretty well anywhere.

By Jeff

February 15, 2007 01:21 PM | Link to this

HST:

Granted, if the student in question favors all the “high school stuff”, AP may be better for them, at least as far as the HS end goes. But for those like me that found HS be equate to HE..LL, JE is by FAR the better option.

By waterbug24

February 15, 2007 01:27 PM | Link to this

I was part time joint enrollment at a local college in high school, and entered college in another state with 12+ hours of sememster work, and that is transferring from quarter to semester hours. I knew to have my counselor check how much credit I would get. I got full credit for my English, psychology, and government classes, but would have only gotten partial credit for any math classes-so I didn’t take any at the college!

By Maria

February 15, 2007 02:24 PM | Link to this

Re: joint enrollment. At my high school, the college profs came to us! There was a lot of interest in joint enrollment, so we had several instructors a day coming from Dekalb College (now known as Georgia Perimeter). Do high schools still do this? It was a great program in that students who were ready for college-level work in one or two subjects could go ahead and start getting the college experience without being forced into a full semester of college work as a seventeen-year-old. And no one had to miss out on high school events either (though some of us — read: ME — missed out anyway due to our seventeen-year-old dorkiness and/or misanthropy).

By Jeff

February 15, 2007 02:42 PM | Link to this

Maria:

Honestly, much of the reason I liked it so much WAS the fact that it got me away from my HS. Personal preference though. (HS, for me, truly was HADES… to the tune of people LITERALLY trying to kill me….)

Note also that I only took ONE of the actual “Joint Enrollment” sections - for my ECON class. In every other class, I was the youngest student AND the only “high school” student. And I ABSOLUTELY LOVED it. In fact, it was the experience as a “college student” without actually being a TRUE college student (re: one that actually has a HS diploma or equivalent) that was some of my fondest memories at KSU.

By Truth Filter

February 15, 2007 02:49 PM | Link to this

Whoa Bridget, ease up.

Looks like the State of Georgia is doing alright with AP participation. If you look at the AP Report">http://www.collegeboard.com/proddownloads/about/newsinfo/ap/2007/2007_ap-report-nation.pdf) on page 9 it looks like Georgia has one of the highest percentage of students who have passed an AP exam at one time. (They don’t compare participation rate that I can see)

So while it’s “only” 10 percent of High School kids, looks like that’s better than the rest of the states.

And ultimately — do we want 100 percent of our kids taking AP classes? And if 90 percent of students were passing AP classes, wouldn’t you then be questioning whether the test results were rigged? Shouldn’t AP be reserved for kids who want to take more rigorous classes?

The question is how do you get the classes to kids who want to take them, but aren’t able to?

By Truth Filter

February 15, 2007 02:54 PM | Link to this

Sorry about the mess up with the link

Here it is

By JustMe

February 15, 2007 03:31 PM | Link to this

It kind of makes me angry how Cox wants to take credit for things in education she has NOTHING to do with!

I will point out that anything that she has TOUCHED has failed miserably. Yet, she wants to take credit for the things that she doesn’t touch and they do well (slight increase in SAT scores, number of AP students, or whatever). If she had created a program to increase SAT scores and then they increased, I would give her all of the credit…. but that is not what’s happening.

By Zoe

February 15, 2007 03:41 PM | Link to this

Most exams have a 50% pass rate and the college board keeps it like that. If 53% of our students are passing these exams- Georgia is doing a great job. I teach 2 different AP classes and I know that I have the best and the brightest in the school. They are hard working and we recruit hard for our classes, we have a very high percentage participate compared to other schools in our system. However, students often take AP for the cache of the name, see how much work there is and drop. AP is supposed to be a rigorous cirriculum. That is why we are going through the audit (mentioned by Dragonlady) Just taking AP does not mean success in college. It is taking it “successfully.” That means earning an A or B in a class that demands work and attention from a student. I know there are teachers that teach an “AP” class, but it is definately not AP material, just called AP. Those classes do a disservice to those of us teaching a true AP class. Remember AP is a choice, but it is designed for the top students. Of course the college board wants more participation- they get paid $82 an exam. Most public school students in Georgia get to take all of their exams for free. I know I had several take exams last year that I knew were going to earn 1s (a failing grade) but since the school was paying, they saw it as a chance to get out of school for half a day. So if you want to look at failure rates, maybe look at the number of kids that have Cs in an AP class and are taking the exam. I can find a direct correlation between the grades earned in the class and the grades earned on the exam.

By Truth Filter

February 15, 2007 04:08 PM | Link to this

There you go again, JustMe.

As I said a couple of days ago, I’m not really a partisan, but you clearly are. You can’t look at things objectively.

The release says that the Georgia Department of Education has helped train more teachers through grants and has made more AP classes available over the Internet. If that’s true (and it appears it is), then they ARE doing something to help. Kathy Cox is the head of the DOE, why shouldn’t she take any credit for that?

I’m sure Urban Meyer is taking some credit for Florida’s national championship — and he didn’t play a down. He called the plays and let others execute them.

Put aside your politics for a little while. It’s actually possible that someone who disagrees with you politically can have a good idea.

By high school teacher

February 15, 2007 04:21 PM | Link to this

“I will point out that anything that she has TOUCHED has failed miserably.”

~guish… sound of can of worms opening~

Okay, so what exactly has failed miserably under the tenure of Kathy Cox?

By HB

February 15, 2007 05:12 PM | Link to this

Bridget, what was considered a passing grade for the stats you provided? I know in the past, a 3 was generally considered passing, but a lot of schools (including Emory) will only give credit for a 4 or higher in most subjects, and for a few courses only accept a 5 (I think Emory requires a 5 for English credit).

By DianeB

February 15, 2007 06:35 PM | Link to this

People need to remember that AP stands for “Advanced Placement”, and stop trying to make their kids grow up so damn fast. There is a reason college comes after high school — the work is more difficult (hopefully), and the subjects require a slightly more mature mind and disciplined thinking. Few 15-year-olds qualify. The object should not be getting as many kids into AP as possible. The object should be improving the AP experience so that it reaches those truly exceptional teenagers who are ready for college-level work.

Let high school kids be high school kids and stop pressuring them to perform at a college level. Parents need to lay off and stop applying inappropriate pressure. As my daughter once observed, “I spent most of elementary school having them tell me they were getting me ready for middle school. Most of middle school was spent ‘getting ready for high school’. High school is being spent ‘getting ready for college.’ Why do I always have to be ‘getting ready’? Why can’t I just DO?”

Having said that, the problem is that so much of the current high school curriuculum is dumbed down to the average kid that just about the only thing left that provides a challenge for the high achieving kids is AP and dual enrollment. But AP should be reserved for the exceptional students, not used for bragging rights.

By Zoe`

February 15, 2007 06:40 PM | Link to this

HB: Passing is a 3 or better However, you are correct in the statement that “good” schools only accept 4s or 5s. Ivy League schools will normally accept AP classes as “elective” credit and still require student to take core classes. The advantage of this is that students can register earlier for classes. Does anyone else remember having to wait for registration day and having classes closed because upperclassmen had taken all the spots?

By DianeB

February 15, 2007 06:43 PM | Link to this

One final comment: If a test is following a statistical bell curve, then 80% of the kids are going to be earning a 3. 15% are going to be earning a 2, another 15% a 4, and 5% each are are going to be earning a 1 or a 5. Of course, nothing follows a standard bell curve in education in this area of grade inflation, but it gives some perspective on how students who take an AP exam ought to be placing. Just because a kid takes an AP class does not guarantee a 4 or a 5 on the test. Most colleges that my son is applying to won’t give credit for anything less than a 4, and several of them won’t consider anything less than a 5. Others simply use the test to exempt a student from basic survey courses without credit, but allowing them to move on to more interesting courses much sooner.

By KA

February 15, 2007 06:48 PM | Link to this

DianeB, You are right, MOST 15 year olds do not qualify for AP classes, but it has nothing to do with age or letting them be kids, give me a break! It has to do with Intelligence, Ability and Hard Work. AP classes are for the BRIGHTEST students who need higher level classes, need the challenges, and who work hard and thrive in these classes. I have 3 kids who thrived in their AP classes, and went to college better prepared because of these classes. Nothing is worse than boring a bright student with the average public HS reading material that is many grade levels below their abilities in content and complexity.

By jim d

February 16, 2007 08:04 AM | Link to this

Cross blog

Momania—-

Is your school challenging your child?

http://www.ajc.com/health/content/shared-blogs/ajc/parenting/

By Jeff

February 16, 2007 08:06 AM | Link to this

another cross blog

Mr. Wooten is talking today about the tax break plan we talked about a couple of days ago…

By dektea

February 16, 2007 08:42 AM | Link to this

what is behind this joint high school college enrollment, and the hope scholarship? there may have been an exodus of the brightest. so colleges and politicians got together to “bait” students to the university system of georgia. once high school students are entwined in the high school college courses, then it will be a difficult decision for them to leave (brain drain) to out of state colleges that are better than our few quality colleges. my highschooler, in the gifted magnet program, is bombarded almost weekly with various georgia colleges wanting enrollment in high school/college programs. it’s too much. in the process of trying to keep many of the gifted students, the high school system totally ignore the high school class on a hole, just to focus on the few gifted/self motivated students, trying to keep them in georgia. they should try to focus on teaching the masses, instead of focusing too much on the few bright (self-driven) ones. develop programs to reach a good majority, instead of focusing so much on the 10%. simply teach all instead of the testing and focusing on the joint enrollment program of the few. dekalb county schools had that problem. they created the magnet school program, while they had the number 1 elementary school in the state, it cost the county a lot with bussing, and had mediocre results from other elementary schools. now they’re going back to magnet in the schools, reaching a larger percent of the students, instead of focusing on the few. so hopefully when they get to high school it will be a different scenario.

By Jim in Marietta

February 16, 2007 09:11 AM | Link to this

Guess what? If you offer AP tests to more students the failure rate will sky rocket, and once again guess who gets to pay for offering the tests to more kids TAX PAYERS. If the kids want to test out their parents should pay for it directly. End of story.

By KA

February 16, 2007 09:22 AM | Link to this

Jim in Marietta, Gwinnett County Public Schools pays for the first AP exam, then the rest are paid for by the student and when my son took the tests they were $80/test.

By KA

February 16, 2007 09:31 AM | Link to this

I want to explain that students receive their grades in AP classes from their HS teachers, and then if they wish they can take the VOLUNTARY end of year national test to see if they can score well enough to get some credit from their prospective colleges. Students are not required to take the end of year national tests.

By PTAMom

February 16, 2007 09:40 AM | Link to this

My oldest son took many AP classes in highschool. (Maybe too many.) His senior year he had only one class that was not AP. In retrospect, he felt that taking all those AP classes might have been a lot of effort for not such a great return in that many of them transferred only as elective credit. So if your child is doing AP classes to get a headstart in his college classes, joint enrollment might be a better plan.

One thing he said, that I really appreciated, was that the tough AP classes were useful because they “taught him how to study for college.” That was what I wanted him to get out of the AP program, so from my persepective, it was worth it.

Having just been through the college admissions process with my son, who was applying to very competitive engineering programs, I can say that for competitive students, AP classes are an absolute must. There is nothing to debate here. Good colleges expect to see AP classes on the transcripts of good students. When we visited colleges, the admissions people always said that they expect their students to have taken the most difficult program offered by their respective highschools. So if your kid’s highschool offers lots of AP classes, your kid needs to take them—if they are looking at competitive colleges.

Of course, some colleges just put a kid’s SATs and GPA into a formula and never weight the difficulty of the program at all. So your student needs to know, when making his schedule, which kind of university he or she is thinking of applying to. Because, college admissions is a strategic game and if GPA is all that matters, it (unfortunately) makes sense to take the easy A.

Last word, sorry this is so long—if class rank is a factor (and it was a HUGE factor in scholarships and honors programs we found) then taking lots of AP classes is a good idea because the extra points (if your school offers extra points for AP) boosts your class rank. Its very hard in a school that offers lots of AP classes for a kid who doesn’t take AP classes to make it into the top % of the class. (That’s how kids get those 4.5 gpa’s.)

Ooh, sorry, one more thing—in our case we didn’t get the AP scores for the tests till long after my son was accepted at his school. So passing that AP test is important for lots of good reasons, but it doesn’t have anything to do with college admissions. Its the grade on your transcript and the presence of the AP coursework that counts for that.

By Truth Filter

February 16, 2007 09:41 AM | Link to this

Jim in M,

Actually, the charts in the press release seem to indicate that the participation has gone up and the failure/pass rate of AP exams hasn’t really changed.

Just FYI

By HS HX Teacher

February 16, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

Here is the irony: My son is in AP US HX and I just finished within the last yr US HX I, US HX 2 and World HX (HONORS IN ALL) at UGA and Gainesville State - my classes were much easier than my son’s AP HX HS class. I am getting my son out of AP for next yr and doing joint enrollment at our local college - Gainesville State - not for the easy work, but for the college experience, credit and less pressure. The core classes in college keeps kids on the ball - limited tests, a few essays - they know they have to do well. HS classes can be a joke - lots of 100s for participation, classwork, dumbed down tets - not reality in college.

By KA

February 16, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

HS HX Teacher, My kids only had one AP teacher who wasn’t teaching up to AP standards, and most of that teacher’s students didn’t even score a 3 on the AP exam. But for the rest of the AP classes my kids had, their teachers taught at a college level, tested at a college level and graded at a college level. The success or failure of an AP teacher is revealed by the number of his/her students who perform well on the end of the year national exam. I discouraged the joint enrollment HS/college classes for my kids, mainly because of the risks and time spent driving to the college site, and the disconnect that I saw joint enrollment kids experience from their HS classmates, which can be bad or good, depending on your kids’ HS environment.

By Jim in Marietta

February 16, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

I still don’t want to pay for initial “free” tests. Also, make more of the initial “free” tests available to more kids and they will take them because they are “free” and the failure rate will rise. Make them pay for all tests up front and less people will take the tests. Parents love touting that their little darlings are “gifted”, so let them put their money where their mouth is.

By catlady

February 16, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

Seems to me that students should have the HS AP teacher’s recommendation before the state pays for the exam. And teachers should be notified if many of their recommended students do not make a 3 or higher. (That might indicate that a different teacher should teach the AP class next time). Or perhaps do away with the state paying at all, since it is the STUDENT, and not the state, that gains the most from the credit awarded. This won’t happen because a high percentage of students taking AP courses are from the middle and upper class families that won’t give up the perk easily. (They vote!) My family’s experience with AP credit is that it was counted elective credit, and I wonder if maybe CLEPing out of a course when you get to college would make more sense? Is there still such a thing as CLEP, or has that been superceeded by providing AP?

I like the points made by KA about the advantages and disadvantages of joint enrollment. Where we live, that really is not an option due to distances to travel, etc. Not everyone has that available (is that discriminatory toward rural students?) Sure helps perpetuate the disadvantages rural students face in college attendance, which are many.

By KA

February 16, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

catlady, yes there are still CLEP exams, but I don’t know if that is what they call them. At GT students that score high on the AP Callculus still have to take the placement exam to get credit for the lower level course. Many colleges have placement exams and give credit for languages, too.

By Nancy

February 21, 2007 04:59 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

To clarify which is more likely to transfer APs or Joint Enrollment courses…

Many selective colleges have the policy of giving credit for a 5 on the AP Exam (with some limitations), but NO credit for Joint Enrollment college courses that were taken for both high school and college credit.

Any college courses you wish to transfer must have been taken for college credit only.