Get Schooled

By Lee

January 26, 2007 08:13 AM | Link to this

Let’s see, five high school students attack one student. The officer is responding and another student grabs the officer to try to pull him away and gets peppered.

And the problem is……????

Glad to see in the article that charges are being filed against the attackers and the student who obstructed the officer.

Maybe a quick lesson at the start of the school year is in order. Ie, when an officer of the law gives you a direct, lawful order, you must obey or you can be charged. Also, there are additional penalties when you assault an employee of the school system. Doesn’t matter if it is the janitor, referee at a ball game, teacher, or the superintendent.

Yessir. That $15k I pay in private school tuition looks more like a bargain every day.

By a high school teacher

January 26, 2007 08:18 AM | Link to this

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and thought some people were unnecessarily rough on you when you took over this blog. Never Mind. until you are involved in a girl fight, more vicious than any boy fight ever, in a school where hundreds of kids gather round and see it as a chance to instigate more violence and even to take pot shots at adults or other kids without repercussions, you have no business making the last comment you made. Yes, I say pepper spray, tazer, stun gun, whatever it takes.

By the real EW

January 26, 2007 08:28 AM | Link to this

Bridget, please take one day off from the cushy typewriter and sit in a middle school and high school and observe just ONE girl fight. It is a complete travesty – a shameful experience. I think they should have been sprayed and anything else. I made a pact with myself that after the last one I broke up - I will never do it again. And just this week I had two eighth grade girls beat each other to a pulp. You just have to experience the unthinkable. I think a better blog topic would be the decline and state of the girls in our schools. If you look at the current trends and I believe if you ask any teachers most of them would say that the violence from the girls has surpassed way past the point of no return. That would be great for someone to actually investigate and report on.

By Ed

January 26, 2007 08:30 AM | Link to this

Face it, Clayton County has some serious issues with high school violence. Extra police must be at their footballs games to attempt to stop the violence. The county is going to hell in a hand basket fast. Makes you wonder who is raising these kids. More than likely most are products of a single parent home, so do the math. I’m sure the city leaders of the Great City of Atlanta will be out protesting today once its a little warmer outside, which reminds me of something. Where were they day before yesterday when a police officer was shot, did they protest the shooting of an icnnocent officer? No. But you shoot a thug robber, home invader or car jacker and they come out in groves.

By TheOne

January 26, 2007 08:31 AM | Link to this

highschoolteacher YES…whatever it takes!! These children can be sooooo ridiculous it is amazing!!! I don’t see a problem with it either.

By KA

January 26, 2007 08:36 AM | Link to this

I agree with Lee and HS teacher, as this GROUP of girls refused to obey the officer’s order! Do you expect him to just stand back and ask “Pretty Please?” Should he stand by and let the fight escalate as more friends join the catfighters? Bridget, honestly, what do YOU think that he should have done, join the melee, let them injure or kill each other?

By jim d

January 26, 2007 08:37 AM | Link to this

Sparyed or shocked? I’m not sure it really matters. either one is better than the alternative.————————-Being shot.

Problem here is that I suspect more than a few of the offenders are back in school today.

I must admit though that the cat fights at school, many, many years ago, were alsways more interesting than watching a couple of guys going at it and almost always produced a consequence of a couple of days out of school.

By a high school mom

January 26, 2007 08:44 AM | Link to this

In the national TV news last week, there was a report of several girls beating up on a single girl. I think they were high school age, 9th & 10th grade. That episode was taped and put on the internet. And, it was over a boy. Geez.

These kids have way too much idle time. They need to find a better way to release their aggression. They need to get involved in activities. And, their parents need to wake up. These “girls” deserve whatever they get.

By leen

January 26, 2007 08:46 AM | Link to this

From a parent’s point of view, I’d much rather see pepper spray used in a school setting than a taser. Several people have died after being tasered, and although I think many of them were found to also have drugs in their systems, I’d rather not have them used on kids as an intervention method. This is the second year I’ve had kids in high school, and fortunately, they have yet to see any fighting. Should it ever happen, I would support the officers using the least amount of force necessary, such as pepper spray.

By jim d

January 26, 2007 08:58 AM | Link to this

Leen.

Do you really think pepper spary is safer?

Perhaps a little enlightenment is called for.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6416/smith-ok.html

By sr citizen dawg

January 26, 2007 09:01 AM | Link to this

Is there even an issue ? Of course the officer did the right thing. Back in my school days I would have worried much more about my parents reaction than about the officers reaction. Maybe thats part of the problem today……………..

By 4th year in Hell

January 26, 2007 09:10 AM | Link to this

Clayton County Schools are horrible. The children are out of control for 2 reasons: 1. The administration is more afraid of looking bad and getting sued if they actually deal out a consequence that is deserved. Children need limits in order to learn right from wrong. 2. Parents. Most parents are on a very low economic level in Clayton Co. They are either of the variety that works ALL the time in order to keep a roof over their family’s head or they are only 15 to 16 years older than their children and never developed properly into adulthood because of being forced into parenthood. I firmly beleive you need to spend time being an adult before a parent, in order to experience life in personal terms rather than being thrust into the responsibility of caring for a child. As far as my belief on the use of pepper spray or tasing, just think, 50 years ago that officer would have used a nightstick. In hindsight, 50 years ago there wouldn’t be this problem.

By Veteran

January 26, 2007 09:14 AM | Link to this

It’s not just Clayton County. I have seen girl-on-girl fights in Cobb that would curl your toes! And, I agree with “the Real EW” who said he/she would never jump in and break up another one - many of us here are terrified of the visciousness we see when girls go at each other. Also, few of you have mentioned the chaos that ensues during a fight. Hundreds of bystanders ring the event and work diligently to keep administrators and resource officers away from the fighters. Often the students fighting each other WISH a resource officer would break it up - but there are so many students egging it on that no one with any sense can get near. I have seen officers and administrators literally throw bodies to the side trying to get to the center of the circle. Just pepper spray? Seems like a great alternative to more harmful ways to break it up. If 29 bystanders were injured with the spray, my question as a parent would have been, “WHAT WERE YOU DOING THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE??” And Briget, get out more. You obviously lead a sheltered life. This group of bloggers is out in the trenches - join us sometime. Open your eyes.

By dan T

January 26, 2007 09:23 AM | Link to this

Title of Blog should have been. What did you learn in school today? If you break the rules you should suffer the consequences.

By jim d

January 26, 2007 09:24 AM | Link to this

Personally I’d prefer SRO’s had water hoses available to break up fights.

54 degree water has a “chilling affect” particularly at a rate of about 40 gallons a minute.

By decaturparent

January 26, 2007 09:32 AM | Link to this

Naaaaw Bridget, they just should have stood by and watched quietly while that pack of animals KILLED that poor girl. Particularly after one of the students pulled the officer away, they should have taken the hint that they weren’t needed in that exchange and just let it play itself out. We wouldn’t want to violate the rights of those kids to beat the cr_p out of eachother.

How much ya wanna bet that the ambulance chasers are down there trying to drum up lawsuits against the school system as we type?

By KA

January 26, 2007 09:33 AM | Link to this

jim, Then the thugs would start fights just to see the hoses come out!

By the real EW

January 26, 2007 09:37 AM | Link to this

I have seen the following come from girl fights: earrings, and all other types of jewelry, false nails, eye contacts, eye lashes, a plethora of hair weaves, real human hair, clothes, bras, and body parts exposed (use your imagination… yuck!)

By beentheredonethat

January 26, 2007 09:40 AM | Link to this

The level of violence in public schools simply reflects the level of increasing violence in our culture outside the school walls. If our schools are going to be “social agencies” in addition to being “educational agencies” our school boards and governmental bodies must provide the necessary resources to carry out this additional function. This could be in a variety of forms. On site police; on site DFACS; on site parole officers; on site child care; and the list goes on.

I’m all for providing whatever support “Johnny” or “Mary” needs to be academically successful… BUT… we must stop “Johnny” and “Mary” from interfering with the education of other students who are not being disruptive. As long as we continue to put them back in the classroom our “product” will continue to be diminished.

You people who haven’t been in a high school or a middle school in the last 10 years have no idea of what you’re talking about. The school that you attended DOESN’T EXIST ANYMORE!

By JD

January 26, 2007 09:48 AM | Link to this

I haven’t been on this blog in months but I can see that some things never change. This is my 12th year teaching and the last 6 have truly been a challenge. Girl fights are without doubt the absolute worst. I will still break up a girl fight but I’m very cautious before doing so. I observe first and foremost to make sure no weapons are involved because I go to work to teach, not break up fights. So what if 29 students got sprayed, they should not have been there watching the fight like it was being held in Vegas. Trust me, any parent would much rather have the child be sprayed rather than having hte officer throw them face first into a wall. You just cannot win these days because of blind politicians and naive parents. Most people commenting have not been in a school in 15-25 years, a lot has changed. Parents and politicians need to stop making excuses for these rude and disrespectful kids. I don’t have problems because my student know that I just refuse to put up with any foolishness. I’m not the most popular teacher but who cares dislike me but respect me and I’m fine. There are too many teachers that go to work everyday in fear because of these out of control students. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using pepper spray or a taser.

By ECLB

January 26, 2007 09:51 AM | Link to this

Not surprising, really. The escalation of violence in the schools is merely a reflection on society in general. As a parent, if my child were one of the affected bystanders, they would have a serious consequence at home, on top of dealing with the pepper spray. They have no business standing around watching a fight. I absolutely support police intervention with whatever is necessary to break up a fight. Pepper spray, taser, nightstick, heck, why not just arrest them and stick them in juvie for a while? I’d like to know why the police aren’t more involved in school incidents. Is it the bureaucratic tape that gets in the way, parents that threaten to sue, or administration that is paralyzed by the potential of being labeled a dangerous school? After seeing a bullying issue at the elementary level reach staggering proportions, I will not hesitate to involve the police from day one.

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 09:54 AM | Link to this

Toss a couple of YellowJackets into the mix. Or whatever they’re called… the plastic grenades they use in prisons to stop riots.

I’ve been involved in breaking up girl fights, and let me put it this way:

ANYTHING short of lethal force should be used. And if you can absolutely justify it - a participant had a weapon of any type in their hands, for example - go lethal.

By Ernest

January 26, 2007 09:56 AM | Link to this

This is a no brainer. We should support to SRO to use their judgement and training to handle the situation accordingly. Maybe, and I emphasize maybe, it there were only two people fighting, the SRO might attempt to break it up. I fall back to trusting their judgement. It’s easy to play ‘Monday morning quarterback’ once you see how things turn out…

By SET

January 26, 2007 09:57 AM | Link to this

Jam D made the real point here. The delinquents are allowed to set foot in the school again, probably shortly after this melee.

As long as the public schools refuse to limit who walks through the door - and do so publicly, nothing will change and the school will be one in name only.

Normal public schools must limit enrollment and periodically remove non-functioning “students” to other programs.

By Lee

January 26, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this

ECLB, re “I’d like to know why the police aren’t more involved in school incidents”

Because it doesn’t take but a couple of incidents and the school will be placed on the “dangerous schools” list. Couple years on that list, they start swapping administration around.

So, they would rather play games with student safety and protect their jobs.

By catlady

January 26, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this

In the early 90’s in my children’s middle and high schools in Athens, those types of assaults were routine. My son witnessed one where the SRO was knocked to the ground and STOMPED, and the principal made excuses, blamed the officer, etc. When you don’t take care of these things aggressively and decisively, they continue. Those who are worried about the reports the state gets: if you would take care of these things, you would find that the number and severity of the problem would decrease. But we are too busy making excuses, feeling sorry for kids, being afraid of lawsuits, etc.

By Guy Pinestra

January 26, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

Well, it looks like EVERYBODY gets it except Bridget.

Most of these kids wouldn’t recognize a consequence if it was pepper-sprayed in their face. THAT education is supposed to come from the home.

By whatwillbridgetdo?

January 26, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

Re: “…but is it too much to expect school-based officers to break up fistfights without resorting to weapons?” Is it too much to ask that an education reporter get a clue?

Two students fled. That means four are left. So tell us bridget, how do you propose that one person subdue four fighting students, and another who jumps him from behind in a situation that can easily escalate with a group of other students around?

I’d like to put you in the exact same situation, but can’t in good conscious subject a group of students to the sight of a grown woman, standing in a pool of her own urine, sobbing uncontrollably “where is my backbone?”

Now maybe some of you can see why I adopted this nom de plume from the beginning of the new reign of error on this blog…

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

So what if 29 students got sprayed, they should not have been there watching the fight like it was being held in Vegas.

They have no business standing around watching a fight

JD & ESOL,

I’m not sure what you expect the kids to do. There was a girl fight at my kids school this week that took place in the gym with teachers present.

Should the kids have run out of the gym into the hallway, outside of any supervision, creating more chaos somewhere else?

I’m not wild about pepper spray because too many innocent kids end up getting punished just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I do like the idea of dumping a bucket of ice cold water on them - too bad it’s not a practical solution.

By G

January 26, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

Yes, it was appropriate. High schoolers can do every bit as much damage as adults, maybe even more because they’re often less amenable to reason. One officer cannot stop several students who are determined to nail someone without resorting to extreme measures. One or two, maybe, but not five. Better pepper spray than firearms.

By dan T

January 26, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

Danish, the kids standing around were not innocent. I am sure the fight went on for a few minutes which would be enough time for the “innocent students” to move away. Also, I think there will be less students grouping around the next time a fight breaks out. although there might be a catch 22 when the law suits start coming in. Maybe students will start gathering around in hopes that they get pepper sprayed so that they can sue the school.:)

By Lee

January 26, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

To follow up on a couple of the comments above, it makes you wonder what the administration would have done if a couple of teachers had broke up a 5 on 1 fight instead of the SRO.

Would they have called the police and filed charges?

Would they have only suspended the 5 attackers and let them back in school in a few days?

Woudl they have suspended the one being attacked?

BTW, a lot of administrators maintain that if your child is attacked and they fight back and defend themselves, they are actively participating in a fight and will be punished along with the attacker. They will cite the “zero tolerance” policies as justification. Teachers are instructed not to ask questions or otherwise investigate what happened. It’s much easier to just give them all a 3 day suspension than to, I don’t know, actually make a decision.

By G

January 26, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

I also doubt that the officer sprayed 29 students. The stuff spreads in the air after it’s sprayed, and it follows ventilation currents.

By Kramer

January 26, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this

It should be mandatory that all kids involved in fights in school should do 4 weeks of summer school. Lets face it the school system inside the perimeter and the counties south of 20 and east/west on 20 are all full of kids who just don’t care. They live the way the see their heros, which are mostly gangster rappers or gangster NBA players. The entire hip-hop generation is the caution for this and they have no one to blame but themselves and their parents for letting them live a life without a realistic goal. The city mayors over the past 10 years is a good start for all this mayhem. The last mayor is now in prison, so what does that tell you. Spray them all!

By the man

January 26, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

What do you expect from Clayton County. They are raising some “good” Thugs down there and the Sherrif and the County Police don’t care….

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 26, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

“Would they have only suspended the 5 attackers and let them back in school in a few days?” Lee, it’s not even a given that the students would have been suspended if a teacher broke it up. I’ve seen teachers get punched in front of administrators, and the student still didn’t get suspended. It’s that bad.

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

Ya know, there is a quite a bit of research right now going in the direction of DEW - Directed Eneery Weapon. These weapons would actually be IDEAL for school fights. They come in a few different varieties - light, mricrowave, sound, etc. The two most interesting ones I’ve seen recently involve light and sound. The light one is kind of a laser strobe, designed to confuse and disorient. The sound one though is actually deployed on Navy ships and some Armu location is Iraq right now. What is interesting about the sound weapon is that it DIRECTS sound. In other words, standing to the side of the beam, you would hear ambient noise. Standing in front of the beam, your eardrums could burst…. just by walking two feet.

Cost/ training on these gadgets is something elese though….. they are ULTRA high tech and just now being developed. (In other words, they cost a fortune!)

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

holding:

Amen. I’ve got the scars to prove it.

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this

dan T,

Were you at my kids school? I didn’t think so.

There were innocent bystanders who did not get involved with the fight. They were in a gym so they weren’t stuck being close to girls, but there are other situations where fights occur where the kids can’t easily disperse, and innocent bystanders can get hurt.

jeff,

I don’t think that an instrument that causes eardrums to burst is ready for use in our schools.

Keep in mind that there are not always two guilty parties in these fights, and often times one child is attacked by another for no reason.

By Sara

January 26, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this

Break up these fighst without resorting to weapons? What planet are you from? Some of these students are nineteen and twenty years old, these is not the same school days we had when we were kids. This is urban warfare. No one standing around watching this fight was innocent, the innocent students were in class. These kids are criminals bound to end up in jail one day. My grandparents lived in Clayton County when I was kid, it was a peaceful place to live. Now look at it, almost the entire area now has a ghetto mentality. No one I know lives there, shops there…or even goes there anymore. But, why would they?

By MACEsupporter

January 26, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

And who was the one school board member in Clayton who put restoring discipline at the top of the list? Norreesse Haynes of MACE. Even the acronym alone says MACE gets it. Yet the AJC says MACE is “radical”. Obviously, Clayton needs something “radical” to happen to get discipline under control.

And the discipline plan put forth by Chairman Erika Davis and Supt. Barbara Pulliam? It’s so compelling that in true “Lean on Me” style they are making a movie on it.

Working title: Incompetent and Incompetenter

By dan T

January 26, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

Danish were you in the gym at the time? Usually, what happens is the students that want to get away get away and the ones that want to be a part of the fight gather around in a mob. I would suspect that the next time a fight happens there will be more people getting away and less gathering in a mob around the fight.

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

BD:

That weapon in particular is not DESIGNED to do it… it just has the amount of output that ALLOWS it to do it. It is actually DESIGNED to project warnings - both verbal and tonal - and disorient. It can be dialed up anywhere from a whisper to something like 5 jet engines taking off 3 feet from you.

Navy uses it to prevent Cole-type incidents. Army uses it to slow cars approaching checkpoints. I say that schools could use it to disrupt fights.

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

dan T,

Did I say that the kids gathered around in a mob around the fight?

Sheesh.

By base d base

January 26, 2007 11:49 AM | Link to this

I say shoot ‘em all and let God sort it out…who cares? It’s Clayton County…

By jim d

January 26, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this

Enough of this!

I have a very important question I’m hoping one of you teachers can answer and clear up my confusion.

Since there is a rule that states “i” before “e” except after “c”, why is “science” spelled wrong?

By Corey

January 26, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

“I’m sure the city leaders of the Great City of Atlanta will be out protesting today” Ed, I don’t get it. What do the leaders of the city of Atlanta have to do with a fight in a Claton County school? Also, the Dekalb County cop was shot in Dekalb county. Once again, what does that have to do with leaders of the city of Atlanta? Are you not stretching things?

By whatwillBridgetDo?

January 26, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this

State Stuporintendent Kathy Cox has the answer: More math! “Today we will learn about negative numbers. An example of a negative number is Bridget’s credibility on a scale of one to ten, on reporting on education issues…”

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

jim:

LOL!!!!!

This is bad… right when I leave teaching and start getting offers to literally move anywhere in the country…. all of a sudden I have a MAJOR interest in staying in Albany!

Anyone know of any SWGA professional type jobs? I REALLY want to stay here, at least until I see how this new situation plays out!

By Susan

January 26, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this

I teach in a middle school and we don’t have a problem with girls fighting here, but I have heard it’s a big issue at the high school. I am appalled. I had hopes that girls, who haven’t been as historically as violent as boys, would be able to settle things without resorting to this. It’s a sad to think now they often seem to believe that violence is the way to solve problems. It’s another reflection on society that has found its way into our schools.

By jim d

January 26, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

once someone tackles my question, I have another one.

Why do we teach kids that violence is not the answer and then have them read about wars in school that solved America’s problems?

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

Standing in front of the beam, your eardrums could burst…. just by walking two feet.

Jeff,

Brilliant. Use an instrument that can burst eardrums and cause permanent hearing loss, even though that’s not what it’s designed to do.

Any more great ideas?

By Lisa B.

January 26, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

Good point Jim D.

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

BD:

Would you rather your child be deaF or deaD? Because in a tactical situation such as a fight, that is the question running through my mind: What is the situation? What are the ROE? Can I neutralize this situation peacefully? Do I have any options other than a tactical solution? If I must go tactical, what opportunities present themelves to use the least amount of force to neutralize the situation?

Cops, Combat vets, and certain other types of people go through those questions almost instantaneously. And while I go for least force, I WILL use as much force as I deem necessary to end it, and end it decisively.

As has been said, that cop’s likely choices were slamming boots into groins and faces into bricks or pulling out the pepper spray. Faced with those choices, the pepper spray was in fact the best tactic available, and OBVIOUSLY worked.

By luvs2teach

January 26, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

jim d - because “science” comes from the Latin word “scientia” which means knowledge - and apparently, they didn’t have the “i before e” controversy ;-p

The girls got what they deserved - just like the family whose unruly little brat kept the airtran flight for leaving the gate.

Follow directions, people - particularly when it’s your safety that’s a concern.

And girl fights are vicious - the worst fights I’ve ever seen were girl fights.

By Leen

January 26, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

Jim, I read the info you posted on pepper spray. I had no idea it was associated with so many deaths, although, like the taser deaths, they seem to have mitigating circumstances. However, after having read it, I don’t think pepper spray is a good idea anymore. There are a lot of kids with asthma in school, and the spray could be potentially deadly to them, even if they are just in the vicinity of the fight. I guess the real answer is zero tolerance. Sooner or later the kids will smarten up. In the meantime, God help the safety officers.

By GradingScaleForOfficers

January 26, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

Since Bridget is so concerned about the tactics of the SRO (student resource officer) I suggest the following grade scale to evaluate them on:

F-SRO fails to subdue student, the other students laugh D-SRO fails to subdue student C-SRO subdues student with no harm to student B-SRO subdues student and breaks a bone
A-SRO subdues student and breaks a bone with an audible “snap” sending a message to the rest of the student body

Of course I can see Bridget whining “but won’t that hurt the students’ self esteem?”

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

BD:

Here’s where I heard about it

AMAZING weapon. Turns out its power to burst eardrums is only at close range - less than 100 yards….. :)

By dan T

January 26, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this

Danish Maybe would could simply go up to a fight in progress and simply lean forward in a low voice and ask the kids in a gentle manner to please stop fighting. also, trying to get thru to the fight we could simply tap kids on the back and ask that if they mind moving out of the way so we break up the fight. Seesh

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

BTW y’all:

I went to an interview at a school along the FL line last week, and there they have an ABSOLUTE code of “you fight, you’re GONE”. Guess what? Not so many fights, (roughly 5 a year from what I was told) and most of them come from 6th graders who haven’t been at the school very long. (It is a combined MS/HS.)

By SET

January 26, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

Jim D:

I’ll take that question.

Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority derives. (quoting Robert Heinlein)

That’s why children need to be taught about Violence, it’s importance, history, value and it’s application.

By meme

January 26, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

Yes, it is too much to ask the SRO to break up a fight without some type of weapon.

And Jim D. There are more exceptions to the spelling rules that you can shake a stick at.

By Emma

January 26, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

God bless teachers and resource officers who have the courage to attempt to teach and maintain the peace in such an environment. I tried teaching in such a school and lasted only two years. Silly me, I wanted to make a difference in these kids lives!

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

dan T,

I’m sorry, but I can’t make sense of your illiterate sentence. Try again.

Jeff,

Is that supposed to be funny? Any kid (or teacher) within 100 yds could be made deaf, and you recommend its use in the schools?

How ironic that the Left are all up in arms because the Gitmo prisoners were “tortured” by having to listen to the Red Hot Chili Peppers, but you, a novice teacher, recommends a military weapon to break up fights.

By catlady

January 26, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this

IME, when there is a fight, especially a girl fight, kids group around and egg them on (sorta like Jerry Springer, I think, but I have never watched that show).

I am in total support of the SRO. There may be collateral damage with the pepper spray, but there may also be serious collateral damage when additional fights break out among the spectators.

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

What about the kids who are attacked by thugs? They get thrown out of school too?

You have a lot of educrat nonsense under your belt, but you’re obviously a complete novice.

Personally, I have “zero tolerance” for people like you who can’t think through the consequences of their ideas.

By dan T

January 26, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

Danish In short how do you think a fight should be broken up? Also, have you ever seen a serious fight in high school?

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

BD:

Only those DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF THE LRAD would be affected.

And I would recommend nuclear weapons to break up fights if I thought there was no alternative. Haven’t you yet realized that even though the systems I’m recommending are military-grade, they are NON-LETHAL? Most cops carry GUNS, and last I checked, that weapon is EXTREMELY lethal. (As a matter of fact, when used effectively it is lethal 100% of the time!)

By disgusted

January 26, 2007 01:03 PM | Link to this

I have to say that since Patty left, the quality of the questions in this blog have declined considerably. The questions are often either absurd or shallow and inflammatory. I have the feeling that the new facilitator does not have a lot of experience with education issues, or even more likely, a lot of genuine curiosity, and is managing this blog on the fly while she attends to her true interests. I find that I check in less and less.

Also, just a little research on her part would have shown that girl fights were covered in depth just a short while ago. Lets move on, shall we?

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 01:05 PM | Link to this

BD:

I’m a no-nonsense guy. You fight, you’re gone. PERIOD. I don’t give a rat’s tail who started it, it is NOT the STUDENT’S place to finish it… it is MINE. And rest assured, I WILL finish it. If it stops because I calmly tell you to stop, excellent. Thank you. It shouldn’t have started in the first place, but thank you for following my orders and not forcing me to use more force. If I have to stop it with lethal force - I’ll do it in a heartbeat. When it comes to someone getting hurt, I’ll do WHATEVER IT TAKES to stop it, THEN I’ll start asking questions.

By V for Vendetta

January 26, 2007 01:10 PM | Link to this

I came back here just to comment on this story. I haven’t been keeping up with the thread of the conversation, so forgive me for coming out of left field, but all I have to say is…

GOOD, GOOD, GOOD. Bravo to the officer. It’s about time more of these little punks got maced, tasered, pepper sprayed, whatever. The state of GA public schools is, at times, ridiculous. Maybe each teacher should be armed with mace and a taser.

By luvs2teach

January 26, 2007 01:14 PM | Link to this

Off topic: jim d thought you’d like this site about the ‘i before e’ rule and its exceptions: Exceptions

On topic - I’m sure there were warning signs - I’m sure that at least one of those girls was in trouble before. There are segments of our society for whom violence is the answer - just watch Jerry Springer, and see what I mean. And like a train wreck, it’s entertaining for some.

I wonder what would happen if we had been able to get rid of the problem makers the first time they showed out.

And I’ll bet the mom of the girl being beaten up doesn’t have a problem with the force used.

By JD

January 26, 2007 01:21 PM | Link to this

Is that supposed to be funny? Any kid (or teacher) within 100 yds could be made deaf, and you recommend its use in the schools?

How ironic that the Left are all up in arms because the Gitmo prisoners were “tortured” by having to listen to the Red Hot Chili Peppers, but you, a novice teacher, recommends a military weapon to break up fights.

Danish we can sit back and use woulda coulda and shouldas all day long. The point is that we will always have possibilities. I’ve witnessed pepper spray being used by our resource officer on two different occasions and I have no problem with it. You continue to say pepper spray should not be used. What do you suggest officers and teachers do to break up fights?

Many of these students simply do not have any respect for any authority, but yet we keep calling them kids, they are not kids at the high school level, they are young adults that think they are adults! These were not Elementary school aged kids that were sprayed they were high school students. No one at my school went deaf, but those students stopped fighting immediately, mission accomplished. Please go spend an hour, a day, a week if you dare at an inner city high school and then please come back and tell us what you observed. The point is simple, if they were not fighting they would not be sprayed. It is unfortunate that innocent students were sprayed but its better they be sprayed with pepper spray as opposed to bullets!

By Zoe

January 26, 2007 01:32 PM | Link to this

It wasn’t spray, it was foam. Read an entirely different view of the account at www.news-daily.com

Unlike an aerosol spray, the orange foam spray has to make direct contact with a person’s skin to have an effect on them.

“I think some of students saw an opportunity to miss class and seized it,” Turner said.

“Even if some of the students went to help the girls get up and then touched their own faces, you’re probably talking about 10 people at most being exposed.”

By 30 Year Teacher

January 26, 2007 01:48 PM | Link to this

I definitely agree with previous bloggers that the officer was correct in his handling of the situation. As others have stated, fights between girls are potentially the very worst. Several years ago I had two girls placed in my at risk class who arrived apparently with great animosity toward each other. I did indeed break up the fight and managed to break one finger and dislocate two others in the process. (I was 59 years old at the time) I told the girls later that I don’t allow trash behavior in my class. This resulted in one of the fathers threatening to sue me for calling his daughter trash. Shoe fits? At any rate I will never physically try to restrain two kids fighting again and would surely love to have pepper spray handy if this ever occurs again. This is the only fight I have had in my class before or since in my soon to be 31 years of teaching.(Both girls ended up in alternative school, by the way.)

I believe Jeff’s solutions are way out of line for any school. It’s one thing to expect compliance and use reasonable methods to achieve it. It’s quite another to have to try and prove how big, bad and tough you are.

By Hick from the sticks

January 26, 2007 01:52 PM | Link to this

Whoa gang!

Sorry I’m late.

I’ve never addressed a writer personally, but after spending seven years teaching in Clayton County, I can assure you the officer’s actions were more than warranted.

I hated (and still hate) breaking up girl fights. It’s wretched. Nails, screaming, blades, hair extensions ripped (literally) from the scalp…

Ick.

At least the SRO was in the vicinity when it happened.

Once I fought through a thick wall of students to break up a fight between two boys. We all three of us went rolling down concrete. The scars on my left hand serve as a reminder on a daily basis how much better I have it now.

That day alone, we had fifteen non-related fights.

I broke up nine.

The SRO was somwehere, I’m sure. I just didn’t know where.

It’s real simple. You can either watch these guys shred each other up, (jumps, weapons, etc.) or you step up and do something.

I guess I was one teacher that did.

And always will.

By catlady

January 26, 2007 01:55 PM | Link to this

In my son’s middle school in Athens, he made an inappropriate comment to a girl “Tamika farted.” She got up, picked him up out of his chair, and started beating him around the face. (the teacher was out of the room). He had had hundreds of thousands of dollars of reconstructive surgery on his head (from an accident) and knew he had to protect the springs, wires, etc. so he put his hands up in front of his face and was given ISS for fighting. The principal admitted he struck no blow, and I demanded that his ISS be charged to inappropriate language. Significantly, the girl who assaulted him got a day of ISS also. Never again. I call the police and press charges if someone assaults me or mine. If the school won’t take assault seriously, the parents MUST. And the way you take it seriously is to land hard on it each and every time.

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 01:57 PM | Link to this

AMEN Hicks!

Though fortunately I am LEAVING education!

(Ironically enough: The ones that wanted me OUT of education and the ones that want me IN computing have the exact same amount of power in their respective industries…. with the computing ones having the slight edge…)

By fed up

January 26, 2007 02:02 PM | Link to this

Awwww Heck…

Why not just let them kill eachother and let Darwin sort them out. Just move the behaving students out of the way, bar the exit doors, move breakable items out of the way and let them finish. Or call their parents and let them come break it up.

Perhaps we could reduce the sociopathic gene pool that way.

If you can’t use the force necessary to stop a hormone induced fight between feral adolescents, there is no point in even trying.

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 02:07 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Why are you shouting? I really don’t think you’re ready for prime time yet. This is the real world, not a teacher’s ed classroom, or some make-believe video-game.

People who are in fights aren’t lined up in straight line. Everyone who is involved in a fight is not necessarily at fault. I can’t believe that I even have to state these obvious facts.

When my kid was in 4th grade attacked by a 120 pound psychopath who was eventually sent to alternative school. My 60 pound child punched the kid in the stomach in self-defense, and I was told if this happened when he was in Middle School he’d automatically end up in court. Great.

According to your scenario, he was supposed to wait for you to come around, and unleash a magic sound machine that would burst his eardrums, very possibly leaving him deaf for life- all because he was attacked by another kid.

dan T,

Earlier I said that I like the idea of throwing a bucket of ice-cold water on them. It beats any of the other ideas that are being thrown around, very cavalierly I might add.

JD,

You said: You continue to say pepper spray should not be used.

I didn’t “continually” say anything fo the sort. Here’s what I said:

I’m not wild about pepper spray because too many innocent kids end up getting punished just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I think there’s a serious reading comprehension problem going on here.

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 02:17 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Good riddance. It sounds like there are a few smart people who figured out very quickly that education was not for the right career path for you.

Enjoy the fantasy war games at your computer.

By KA

January 26, 2007 02:24 PM | Link to this

I think SRO’s should use big sticky nets that are propelled toward the melee and ensnare the combatants. It would be nonlethal, and subdue and restrain them until the perps could be arrested and removed form the premises PERMANENTLY!

By veteran

January 26, 2007 02:30 PM | Link to this

Thanks to the blogger who directed us to the Clayton News-Daily Online version of the incident - everyone on this blog needs to read THAT version and not AJC’s inflammatory/inept version www.news-daily.com The article clearly states that the officer made several reasonable attempts to break up the fight (Bridget,surely you knew this by doing your research!) - the article also clearly states that NO ONE had to be sent to the hospital for treatment AND “that students seized the opportunity” (quote … unquote) to miss class.
I heartily agree with an earlier blogger - If you have not been in a classroom in the last 10 years, you are sadly uninformed. I am not saying that private school is the way to go, either. My daughter was severely abused by two middle school boys while attending a small, Christian private school in East Cobb. What is the answer? Educate the parents! Expect discipline! Hold students accountable for their behavior. And Jeff, we used to have just such a policy. And when the principal left who enforced the policy, the fights immediately escalated. What I would give to have a “no fights or you go to jail” policy on this campus again.

By Taxpayer

January 26, 2007 02:39 PM | Link to this

The officer did the right thing and should press assault charges against the student who grabbed him.

By KA

January 26, 2007 03:01 PM | Link to this

I just read the Clayton News’ account http://www.news-daily.com/homepage/localstory025213700.html?keyword=leadpicturestory

I am glad that 3 of the female thugs were in police custody and going to be charged with assault! Too bad that they are only suspended for 10 days. IMO they should be expelled.

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

January 26, 2007 03:16 PM | Link to this

Let’s make Bridget an officer. Let her show us how it’s done without weapons. Won’t stop the fighting, but at least we could research which laundry detergent best removes urine and feces from law enforcement uniforms.

By MAC

January 26, 2007 03:16 PM | Link to this

Officers use weapons because there is no such thing as a fair fight these days. These kids are such cowards that they now jump other kids, also known as gang fights (2 or more kids finding one kid and beating the crap out of’em unless others join in to help). I teach high school, and these kids are brutal! They are out for blood! Tasers and pepper spray are definitely necessary in such violent episodes.

By luvs2teach

January 26, 2007 03:22 PM | Link to this

I have finished reading both articles, and I didn’t see mcuh difference in the coverage. To “veteran” - Bridget didn’t write the original article - she instead summarized it and linked it here - I didn’t find that particularly inflammatory. She is trying to stir interest in the discussion, however.

Both articles mentioned that it was “foam” and not “spray” - both articles stated that the students were treated at school and that none were transported to hospitals. The Clayton Daily News was more specific in how the officer tried to break up the fight. The was a difference in the number of students mentioned.

Besides - who cares how it’s covered - the fact that an event like this needed coverage should be more disturbing to us all!

By MACE supporter

January 26, 2007 03:25 PM | Link to this

Who is the ONE education organization that’s been on the forefront restoring discipline to Clayton schools? Now you see why they call themselves MACE?

By catlady

January 26, 2007 03:26 PM | Link to this

I know of a principal that kept packets made up in the office of the Georgia rules for homeschooling. When a parent came in with a complaint about little Johnny being punished or getting a low grade for no work and saying they were going to homeschool, he would hand them a packet, tell them he was withdrawing little Johnny immediately, and wish them well. It is amazing how much backpedalling you could see.

Quite seriously, I believe taking care of problems decisively and aggressively the first time would seriously limit how many second times there are. We get what we allow.

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 03:28 PM | Link to this

MAC,

Thank you for your comments. The idea that just because a kid is involved in a fight that he is automatically guilty of something is wrong. Oftentimes innocent kids are jumped, just as you describe.

In my son’s school the girls are the worst offenders.

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 03:35 PM | Link to this

catlady:

AMEN!! Send a kid to ICU - maybe even the morgue, if the situation warrants it - the FIRST time a fight breaks out, have an assembly and make it PERFECTLY clear that what happened to that kid will happen every time there is a fight. No more fights at that school…..

By Jack

January 26, 2007 03:35 PM | Link to this

Maybe parents should step in and preclude their kids becoming little thugs and thugettes. Then, mayber there will not be a need for resource officers; tasers; and pepper spray. Time to start holding some parents responsible for their kid’s poor behavior!

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 03:37 PM | Link to this

BD:

It has been my experience that the kids getting jumped are the ones picking the fights and then running behind momma’s skirt when they get it.

By Janine

January 26, 2007 03:43 PM | Link to this

Is anyone familiar with “bystander battery”? In my middle school students who circled and cheered on the combatants were charged with “bystander battery” and received some form of disciplinary action. One of our male teachers who tried to break up a fight between two girls several years ago is still bothered with back pain that is a direct result of that intervention.

By ExSubstituteTeacher

January 26, 2007 03:44 PM | Link to this

Amazing how people comment without having experienced the situations. I think they should have peppered sprayed those kids. I agree with all who say that if the bystanders were not watching then they would not have been sprayed. The problem today is kids / people don’t have any repercussions for their actions and alot of the parents uphold their children in their mess.

I picked my daughter up from her high school today and she tells me she was upset with her teacher because he allowed her to go to another class to get her binder which she needed for his class. He let her go at the end of the class and she got caught by the bell so he wouldn’t give her a pass to her next class. GUess what she got lockout. My response to her was - you should have had your binder with you and this would have been avoided - now that party you were invited to on Saturday is no longer an option - she’s on punishment - END OF STORY. Kids today are crying out for discipline, boundaries and guidance. The public schools are a mess because of the lack of all of the above. For those of you who are so proud of the private schools - they have their issues as well - just not to the extreme. I would never teach or work in a school. I applaud all those who do.

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 03:48 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

One year teaching? Yeah, that’s a lot of “experience”.

Since you’re out of the education biz, maybe the Taliban would welcome you in their ranks. Sharia Law sounds perfect for you.

By Janine

January 26, 2007 03:50 PM | Link to this

Girlfights are absolutely the most violent. The last fight I witnessed was between 2 girls…[and in my experience it’s almost always about a boy]. There were hunks [or would that be hanks} of hair left on the floor after everyone was cleared. The teachers in our school were instructed NOT to attempt to break up fights, but to call for help from the SRO and/or front office…Guess the administration was afraid an injured teacher might file a lawsuit or complaint of some kind. Definitely the SRO’s need something to use to use to break up these fights…pepper spray , water hose, foam….

By MAC

January 26, 2007 03:59 PM | Link to this

The kids being jumped are not always guilty of teasing, Jeff. Sometimes they are innocent targets of kids who are jealous of them (particularly females) b/c they are attractive, intelligent, popular, etc. The jumpers have little or no self-esteem. They are enraged with their own terrible lives (which is not always their fault), and only feel some sense of satisfaction by inflicting pain on others (i.e Misery loves company!)

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 04:00 PM | Link to this

Ex-Sub teacher,

I would argue that the fact that the schools have so many unnecessary rules make the kids miserable and less respectful of authority.

This business of it being a crime because you forget a binder is ridiculous.

For all the complaints about how horrible kids are and how awful the parents are for not disciplining them, the fact is that these kids are also treated like cattle.

They spend too much time in overly long academic classes, have no time to eat lunch, often aren’t even permitted to talk during lunch, no recess or refreshment breaks, insufficient time between classes to get their binders, not opportunity to socialize or get fresh air, and a gazillion petty rules.

That is a recipe for disaster.

By jim d

January 26, 2007 04:04 PM | Link to this

Ahh c’mon folks.

I dare say everyone or nearly everyone of us has been in the exact same position the bystanders were and we didn’t do anything any differently.

These are kids for crying out loud. Yes bust the ones involved in the scrap and those that may attempt to impede an adult trying to stop it but give the bystanders a little chat and let em go. they were only doing what most kids would do—watching

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 04:05 PM | Link to this

Janine,

The teachers could and do get hurt, so that is a good reason not to break up a fight, especially if you’re a female.

It’s obviously a very difficult and often dangerous situation with no easy solutions.

At the same time, I am fed up with people who would literally send them to the morgue, like Jeff, and who assume that anyone who is in the fight is responsible for it in the first place.

By Lee

January 26, 2007 04:07 PM | Link to this

All this talk about fighting makes me think about my high school days many years ago….

• You have a disagreement with someone, you could both go to the PE teacher who would let you to “put the gloves on.” About two minutes of swinging those big, heavy gloves would take the fight right out of you.

• A teacher break up a fight, they would walk up to the combatants and tell them, “Alright. Break it up.” They always did.

• Teacher break up a fight, they asked questions and tried to determine who started it. The unwritten rule was “whoever throws the first punch, gets the worst punishment.”

• If you played sports and got into a fight, the coach would give you a little “extra attention” at practice. “You got all that extra energy for fighting, maybe you should run the bleachers.” Come to think of it, you get into trouble for anything, the coach would make you regret it.

• I carried a knife to school for 12 years. Never, ever, saw or heard of anyone pulling a knife in a fight. Heck, during deer season, half the trucks in the parking lot had an old shotgun or 30-30 in the gun rack in the back window. No one ever dreamed of bringing a gun to school to shoot someone.

• Only saw one girl fight. Being a teenage boy, I was quite disappointed. Didn’t see any blouses getting ripped off….

• Never, ever saw two or more jumping on one. I guess we had more of a code of honor back then…

Ahhh, the good ol days…

By Janine

January 26, 2007 04:21 PM | Link to this

Lee re: a teacher breaking up a fight in your day… Sometimes I actually did go up to the combatants and yell “This is Mrs. ——-speaking….Stop this foolishness right now….” Most of the time it didn’t work, but once or twice it happened to involve one of my students and it did work…

By Lee

January 26, 2007 04:22 PM | Link to this

Jeff, re “Send a kid to ICU - maybe even the morgue, if the situation warrants it - the FIRST time a fight breaks out, have an assembly and make it PERFECTLY clear that what happened to that kid will happen every time there is a fight. No more fights at that school”

You know, there is a reason you’re no longer teaching. Maybe the principal figured out you’re a psycho…

Good grief…

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 04:25 PM | Link to this

MAC:

Case in point: I had one kid that was CONSTANTLY getting beat up. Sometimes it was a one on one fight, sometimes not. But at LEAST 70% percent of the time when I asked kids in that class that I could trust, they would tell me that the kid that got beat up had been talking smack pretty much all day. (I had him the last two periods.)

BD:

Your name says it all. You support a nation that allows legal prostitution and legalized substances such as hashish and marijuana. Truly, YOU have no value for the rule of law, so why should anyone else?

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 04:35 PM | Link to this

Lee:

I just tend to follow the old adage “Go big or Go HOME!”.

Once kids see that you’re not afraid of anything they may pull and that they had BETTER be afraid of the things YOU will, you don’t have any problems from them. If the kids think they have ANY power over you, you’re screwed.

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 04:41 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

You are the master of “talking smack”.

My name comes from my support for the Danes who are in hiding after having fatwas issued against them for publishing “offensive” cartoons about Mohammed. It is a statement against IslamoFascism.

You really are an ignorant little punk.

By jim d

January 26, 2007 04:45 PM | Link to this

Yes Lee the good old days.

Certainly, life was different back then. We got married first, then slept together. And, mind you, not in the same bed, at least never in the movies of those days. Back then, having a meaningful relationship was when your uncle took you to the circus.

Service stations had service. Fast food was what our Catholic friends ate during Lent. “Made in Japan” meant junk, and “making out” referred to how you did on your algebra exam.

Pizzas, Starbucks, and McDonald’s were unheard of.

Those days, for a nickel we could ride on the streetcar, make a phone call, buy a Coke (“Twelve full ounces, that’s a lot!“) or enough stamps to mail one letter and 2 postcards. Gas was 16 cents a gallon.

The good old days meant climbing trees, cowboys ‘n’ Indians, chocolate milk, sucking on ice chips just cut by the iceman, licking Mom’s mixer beaters, and catching lightening bugs in a jar. Also hard-to-push mowers, polio, and widespread prejudice.

All in all, I’ll take today’s life anytime. Heck, indoor plumbing and life-saving pharmaceuticals alone make the choice easy. Lets’ face it, if I’d been my age back in those good old days, I’d be dead right now.

By Lynn Deaver

January 26, 2007 04:52 PM | Link to this

I agree with using what ever they have to use.Taser or spray it gets the point across the kids need to understand.If you act up in school you will be stopped. Law enforcement is there because we took prayer out.Deal with it.

By KA

January 26, 2007 04:53 PM | Link to this

OK boys and girls, silence please, return to your seats, sit straight in your seats with your feet flat on the floor, your hands folded on the desk, and eyes straight ahead. AAAHHH, Catholic School, those were the days when a 90 lb. nun could take a 150 lb boy and slam him up against the wall for talking in line during silent time, and he would be penitent and say, “Yes, Sister.”

By SET

January 26, 2007 04:54 PM | Link to this

Lee,

It’s easy for you to call another teacher a Psycho… maybe you work in a safe school.

What Jeff is saying would actually work. And in fact as teachers you do have a duty to reasonably attempt to rescue a student from violent attack - up to and including killing the attacker. Lucky you - you’ve never been put into a situation where these issues arise from time to time. Other people are put in that situation.

In the Los Angeles Area the Mexican Gangs have declared some of their territories off limits to all blacks and have violently (deadly & Great Bodily Injury force) attacked black children as young as 10 who are found standing on the sidewalk in the no blacks allowed zones. Some of our schools have serious problems with gang enforcers coming on to school grounds to attack/maim students at school. This is why CA public schools normally have armed police on all of it’s urban secondary schools and most if not all of it’s public Junior Colleges. The Univ of CA Police have SWAT teams.

Sometimes when I read the GA posters I smile because you live in a place - for a little while longer - where there are only black and white cultures to manage. Our blessed government is rapidly introducing third world masses into the United States generally - the newcomers do not behave like what you are used to dealing with. They are clannish, aggressive, and are taking territory, and they have not even the pretense of loyalty to any US norms.

And frankly, they are much better shots than the home grown thugs. Maybe it’s the higher IQs.

These stories about out of control melee’s in high schools don’t bode well for the future when you add into the mix new people who only know life and death battles. The schools would do well to get physical control of the campus now. If newcomers have to settle some of these fights you will have real casualties.

By Michelle

January 26, 2007 04:56 PM | Link to this

My kids aren’t school age yet, but after reading this blog, I am seriously considering home schooling!

By jim d

January 26, 2007 05:02 PM | Link to this

SET,

Fraid you may be right.

Gwinnett County is reportedly now 1/3 hispanic.

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 05:09 PM | Link to this

OK BD, I apologize. Your name DOESN’T come from supporting drugs and prostitution.

It comes from supporting a force just as insidious, just as evil, and just as out to ruin America as the Islamofascists - Political Correctness.

By KA

January 26, 2007 05:17 PM | Link to this

SET, Gwinnett County, NE of Atlanta is well on its way to being a crossroads of the world in its population make-up. White is now in the minority to a growing mix of minorities, including but not limited to Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Slavic and Middle Europeans, Pakistanis, Indians, and Africans who were actually born in Africa. We have gangs, drug trafficking, increasing crime and murders, rampant illegals, overrun schools and hospitals, blighted neighborhoods, abandoned shopping centers, and horrendous traffic. Sound like California?

By KA

January 26, 2007 05:22 PM | Link to this

Jeff, You are still wrong about ‘Buy Danish.’ He/she said, “My name comes from my support for the Danes who are in hiding after having fatwas issued against them for publishing “offensive” cartoons about Mohammed. It is a statement against IslamoFascism.” Jeff, that is not support for political correctness. That is support for free speech.

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 05:28 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I am a Ronald Reagan conservative. I abhor cultural-marxism (Political-correctness) as much as I abhor IslamoFascism.

I am the least politically-correct person you will ever meet. In fact, I believe that it is PC attitudes that are in part to blame for the fact that girls now behave like boys and boys are made to feel guilty for not behaving like girls.

I do believe in justice, and I do not believe in sending kids to the morgue because they get in a fight, particularly those who were attacked by thugs. I don’t believe in using machines that burst the eardrums of anyone within 100 feet of it.

I think you’re really a fascist punk posing as a conservative, and if anything gives me faith in the education bureaucracy it’s that somebody got your number early on.

By ExSubstituteTeacher

January 26, 2007 05:30 PM | Link to this

BuyDanish my question to you is do you have children and have you or do you work in schools. For starts the fact that my daughter left her binder is not a crime. The fact that she needed it for that particular class is inexcusable as this was not her first offense. I agree that schools have lot of rules, some may appear unnecessary but they are in place for a reason.

I am a firm believer in the fact that it is not the schools full responsibility to educate my child - I view it as a joint partnership. The bottom line is that a lot of today’s kids are disrespectful and out of control. I personally know of a SRO who got his shoulder pulled out of socket trying to break up a middle school girl fight - RIDICULOUS.

I don’t substitute anymore but I do volunteer my time at my child’s school and I am always speechless at what I see.

I will agree with you on the long schedules - I am totally against the Block schedule. My daughter is constantly getting detention from her 4th block teacher for nodding off - I cut her slack on that one - she has to be up at 5:30 in the morning to get to school for 6:30-6:45. RULES ARE NEEDED.

By Mr. Ward

January 26, 2007 05:34 PM | Link to this

Pepper spray is perfectly acceptable to use in a cafeteria fight considering it is both a weapon and a condiment.

By rickey priest

January 26, 2007 05:35 PM | Link to this

maybe the cop should have used a nightstick and truely injured the girls. if children are not disiplined in the home this is how they will act. maybe in the near future we will need resource officers in all private residences.

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 05:36 PM | Link to this

KA,

Thank you.

Jeff, in his incredible arrogance and ignorance, thinks that if you aren’t willing to send kids to the morgue or blow out their eardrums for life for getting in a fight, even when it is through no fault of your own, means that you are opposed to “law and order”.

I don’t use the fascist word lightly, but in his case it applies. He could also be a psycho, as Lee suggested. The two often go hand in hand.

By Jeff

January 26, 2007 05:36 PM | Link to this

KA:

Read BD’s comments. I don’t get my interpretation of the name from when it was explained. I get it from the positions this person takes.

By Lee

January 26, 2007 05:42 PM | Link to this

SET, re, “It’s easy for you to call [Jeff] a Psycho”

You’re right. That’s because he writes crazy sh1t.

By KA

January 26, 2007 05:50 PM | Link to this

Jeff, My dad always told me to “engage my brain before putting my mouth in gear.” Your comments about sending the kids to the morgue were clearly an example of talking off the top of your head without engaging your brain first. I enjoy your comments ususually but they do run the range from soup to nuts, and that comment of yours was plain nuts.

By MACEsupporter

January 26, 2007 05:50 PM | Link to this

JustMe,

The way it’s reported, or often, not reported is VERY important. One oganization has been trying to restore discipline for years, and that’s MACE-the name alone shows they get it.

But the AJC did nothing on the arrest of MACE head Dr. Trotter at the last board meeting. The Chairman orchestrated a “staged” arrest (according to reporters who were there, unlike the AJC). The charge? Violating a restraining order, one that was thrown out of court today for lack of merit.

When the AJC engages in a biased campaign against the only educator organization to take a stand on discipline, then it tells the status quo that there will be no penalty for remaining spineless.

But the fact that it is what it is these days when it comes to student behavior is, as you say, the real story in all of this…a story that MACE is trying to change, a story the AJC (based on it’s biased coverage), must be ok with.

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 05:54 PM | Link to this

Sub teacher,

Yes, I have a kid in 7th grade.

No school should start at 6:30 in the morning. It is amazing to me when I hear all the hue and cry about the Gitmo prisoners being “mistreated”, yet our own children are treated far worse.

Of course I realize that rules are needed, but there needs to be some sort of balance where these kids are able to enjoy their childhoods at the same time and develop socially.

Their schedules are horrible and counterproductive. My kid isn’t even on the block schedule yet, but 56 minute classes are too long. They need to cut back the class time and give then some sort of break during the day, with some chance to talk to their friends, get a snack, et cetera.

My kid is gone for 9 hours a day, and the only break is the unhealthy 20 minutes they get for lunch where they can’t really talk to their friends.

For all the complaints about how horrible these kids are, I bet that the complainers didn’t have to endure schedules like these.

By KA

January 26, 2007 06:04 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I reread all of BD’s and your exchange and IMO you totally missed BD’s meaning when in response to your eardrum blaster comments. BD said that innocent parties being beaten would also be seriously injured by your device. The point you miss also is that gangs prey on others, beating them both in school and out of school. You cannot make the assumption that the kids engaged in fighting are all aggressors! There are often innocent victims at the center of the melee.

By catlady

January 26, 2007 06:12 PM | Link to this

For those who think the pepper spray was over the top, please go spend a few hours a day walking around any large, diverse high school. Or just sit in the galleria and listen as classes change or during lunch.

Is it okay for a police officer to pepper spray a combatant person who is out of control on the sidewalk or in a nightclub? Someone who is beating up another person and won’t stop? Assault is assault, and the fights we have nowadays are nothing like the “throw a few punches and glare” kinds of fights I remember (the few we had—you’d be out of school permanently, which served as a serious deterent. There were no alternative schools except reform school.) (‘Course, we didn’t have “graduation coaches” then—we had PARENTS) I suspect most of the “against” folks are not teachers, or are teachers who have not been in an average high school much in a while. And in my experience, the folks “watching” up close enough to be sprayed are also cheering it on. I have seen this a number of times during my visits to my children’s high school.

Even our out of control kids mostly want to be in school: the social aspect of it, perhaps the food (LOL). If they did not, they truly would stop coming at 16. So they make a choice to come, which should be taken away when they assault others.

I tell my students, “He didn’t MAKE you do anything. You chose to do it. Even if he held a gun to your head, you CHOSE to do as he asked, rather than getting shot.” One of the worst sentences is “He made me…..”. No, you chose to allow yourself to act out of anger. You gave him control over your actions.

When I have a student pushing or scuffling, I say, “Tell me what you did.” You would be surprised how many of them cannot simply relate what they did. They want to start the sentence with “He” or “but” and cannot simply relate their action (recognize it and take responsibility for it.)

Unlike Jeff, I don’t always think that the jumped on student caused it to happen. I think that is an EXCUSE used to justify the action of the jumper. I have had kids think they should pound someone because they looked at them funny. It is true that sometimes the jumpee has needled the jumper, and we are unaware of it. But sometimes, as one blogger wrote, the “crime” the jumpee committed is based on competition or jealousy that the jumpee may be largely unaware of. At least in my 3 plus decades of teaching, this is what I have seen.

In my opinion, the line should be drawn: when you walk in this door, we demand civil behavior from you. No matter what you are used to at home, these are the rules, and these are the swift consequences, HERE. A kindergartener can learn this; why do we sell these young human beings short? If they are so mentally retarded, we need to provide them the special ed they need (and they get a largely free pass by claiming their behavior is a result of their disability). Otherwise, we don’t put up with assault, period.

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 06:13 PM | Link to this

KA,

Jeff says that from his vast experience (/sarc) that the kids he “trusts” say that the kids who were attacked were “talking smack”.

There’s something really perverse about Jeff’s thinking. On the one hand he wants the kids dead or deaf for getting in a fight, but on the other he thinks it’s okay for one kid to attack another for “talking smack”.

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

January 26, 2007 06:25 PM | Link to this

Danish and KA, I’d say it’s Bridget who’s had the single most damaging quote, that being “…but is it too much to expect school-based officers to break up fistfights without resorting to weapons?”

Jeff’s a blogger, thus lumped in with all the others. But when Bridget makes a quote like this, it comes with the AJC’s stamp of approval.

Thus, Bridget uses the power and prestige of the AJC to diminish just how serious a situation this was, and is, in our public schools today.

Jeff’s comments are hyperbole. Bridget’s are much more insidious.

By Buy Danish

January 26, 2007 06:37 PM | Link to this

WWBD,

Good point - there is a distinction between the AJC and a blogger, but this particular blogger is doing more than using “hyperbole”.

I don’t really consider pepper spray a “weapon” but I don’t think it is something that should be used every time there’s a scuffle, for the reasons I’ve already outlined - namely protecting the innocent kids. This case did seem to warrant it.

Maybe someone could invent a refrigerated mega-water pistol that shoots out ice cold water, and the officers could carry those around.

By MeMeMe

January 26, 2007 06:42 PM | Link to this

The pepper foam vs pepper spray is important because it seems people didn’t realize that it wasn’t spray. Spray would have affected many more students, the foam is used to singal out the students that need it. Clayton County is under a lot of pressure to under report. The principal at Mount Zion was one brought in by Pulliam. Many (thank goodness not all) of the principals in Clayton have been handpicked because of connections, not because of ability. For years there was no pool of administrators to choose from. When a position came open, Pulliam magically chose someone to fill the spot. There was no rhyme or reason, just who knew who. This fight is the tip of the iceberg of the problems within the county. I am amazed that Bridget hasn’t been covering the board meetings. There is a litany from that alone, the $17 million land deal, the board member with the TRO against John Trotter, just to name two. Someone needs to put a spotlight on the county before it is too late!

By Teacher2

January 26, 2007 06:47 PM | Link to this

I teach in a diverse Title I high school with more gang activity that I want to admit to.

I asked my students what they thought about this issue and the only students who disagreed with the officer’s use of pepper spray were my loveable miscreants with their probation-tracking ankle bracelets.

We actually had a productive discussion about school violence, and for once, the thugs were overruled by the students who genuinely want the violence to stop.

More power to the SRO. Give him a raise.

By Teacher2

January 26, 2007 06:51 PM | Link to this

MeMeMe, the spotlight is already there. No one wants to admit just how out of control CCSS is. Our county has absorbed many of their teachers and the horror stories they tell would send you straight to the homeschool section of the bookstore as soon as you finished stocking up at the military supply depot.

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

January 26, 2007 07:05 PM | Link to this

Teacher2, Dr. John Trotter, head of MACE has tried to highlight this. In response he was arrested at a board meeting for violating a “restraining order”…a restraining order that subsequently a judge threw out of court.

Think the AJC reported on the bogus restraining order, or how the Chairman of the Board called a recess so that the media that was there could be moved to a spot to witness Victor Hill personally arresting Dr. Trotter? (The media that was there reported that this indeed happened.)

Frankly Bridget has been as spineless on discipline as the Clayton Supt. and BOE Chairman, as evidenced by the fact that when she is invited to post on this blog to defend her actions, she flies south for the winter.

By Jeff

January 29, 2007 08:20 AM | Link to this

BD and others:

a) LRAD only has the CAPABILITY to burst eardrums, it does NOT have to be dialed up to that power, but CAN be.

b) One thing you MUST realize about me: I WILL sacfrice the one for the sake of the many. To me, it is about doing the MOST good, and if one act of bad causes a TON of good to be done, then so be it. For example: Columbine. You may say that a preemptive strike on 19.April.1999 on Kliebold and Harris would have been evil. I say that I would take the fall for murdering those two boys that day had I known what they were going to do the very next day. YES, two would have died. But 20 would have been saved, and an entire community - indeed, and entire country - would have been spared. Same thing with the 9/11 hijackers. Killing them on 9/10 would have been evil, from what you say. But killing 30 when you KNOW they are about to kill 3,000 and paralyze a country? Give me the 30 deaths!

If I can deploy ultra harsh tactics and non-lethal weapons and reduce the fights to one or two a year that can be easily contained, I will do it in a heartbeat. Not only have I stopped the ourtight fights, but HOPEFULLY I’ve convinced at least some of the peoeple that were inclined to use physicality as their FIRST option that there ARE better ways.

By KA

January 29, 2007 08:39 AM | Link to this

Jeff, OK, this has gone on long enough. You need some psychological assistance. I am serious, and I don’t have anything to prove or gain from this discussion. But I think you need some help. We are not discussing a Columbine incident here. It was a freshman girl fight. IMO you would be better suited to “deploy” your talents and tactics in a prison setting.

By Jeff

January 29, 2007 08:50 AM | Link to this

KA:

Physicality is Physicality. Whether that physicality involves a one on one fist fight or a 100 on 1 jumping or a one on 100 shooting spree. In my eyes, they are ALL EXACTLY THE SAME. NONE should be allowed in a school setting. You making excuses for certain individuals/ situations does NO ONE any good.

By Jeff

January 29, 2007 08:59 AM | Link to this

KA:

Did you ever literally run in fear of your life in school? I DID. I KNOW all too well the terror that bullies cause. I KNOW all too well the feelings that lead some kids that are chronically picked on to bring guns to school (both from a defensive and offensive standpoint). THAT is why I am committed to stopping the crap before it starts. You put the fear of GOD into those kids the FIRST time something happens, and you’ve instantaneously stopped most bullying (at least the physical aspects of it). At the same time, because you’ve just stopped the bullying, you’ve just instantaneously almost eradicated the need for non-bullies to bring guns for either purpose. While you still have the few weirdos that you must guard against (such as those that would shoot a teacher over a bad grade), you’ve gone from what I would deem a COMPLETELY unsafe school (my standards are FAR higher than NCLB’s) to what I would deem a MANAGABLY unsafe school. (Which is my personal standard to receive a passing grade there, as well as being the highest I give.)

By KA

January 29, 2007 09:03 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I am not making excuses for anybody, nor am I advocating handling school fights with PC kid gloves. IMO this SRO handled this fight in an appropriate manner using the PEPPER FOAM SPRAY. It worked in this incident, and it can be controlled so as to minimize impact and injury on victims and bystanders.

My comments were directed at your choice of words and the tone of your comments. It appears to me that you have a hair trigger temper and a take no prisoners attitude. You are scary, and I think you need help. Just my opinion, take it or leave it. I don’t have anything further to say on this topic.

By Jeff

January 29, 2007 09:09 AM | Link to this

KA:

I will cop to the take no prisoners attitude, and I will even admit to having a very fiery temper. But it is not on a hair trigger. More like detonating a nuclear weapon: INREDIBLY destructive if ever unleashed, and even a partial explosion and cause pretty heavy devastation, but there are MUTLIPLE failsafes and blocks built in. Y’all just happen to see on of them in full force. (I write to get things out of my system.)

By IC

January 29, 2007 09:40 AM | Link to this

You should have writen more!

By Jason

January 29, 2007 03:31 PM | Link to this

If my daughter was being attacked, I’d want the police to do use waatever means necesary to make the attacker stop. If the attacker gets pepper sprayed or tasered, then so be it.

By Thom

January 30, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

It is easy to say that an officer can break up a fight without weapons when you are sitting in your easy chair. He has to consider the safety of the kids, the faculty and himself. To individually stop a couple of kids or a group of kids from injuring each other is not always that easy and the use of non-lethal force is necessary on some occasions. It is easy to judge from our seats but I have personally been in that officer’s shoes and I know it is not that easy.

By Thom

January 30, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

This is the most idiotic statement that I have read in this Blog. Do you really think this is only a problem in the southern, eastern and western schools? The same problems manifest themselves in the northern schools as well. There are also other problems such as auto accidents and other means of self destruction. You obviously are looking through rose colored glasses. Be careful how you classify others and hide your true feelings and intended statements. Your prejudices are showing through the sheets that you use to cover them.

By Alexandera

February 8, 2007 03:32 PM | Link to this

Hi I am a six grader that goes to plains Junior and it is amazing to see all of these things that could happen at school. A cupple weexs ago there was a huge fite in are calfatura agest this STRONG juck football player and this nerd that could not get over him self any way Anthening the football player won. But both of them got saturday school shows what happens when you fight.

By 30 Year Teacher

February 8, 2007 03:41 PM | Link to this

Alexandera,

You are no more a 6th grader than I am. Nice try at impersonation though.