Get Schooled

By ECLB

January 25, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this

While the disparity between racial and socioeconomic groups may grow after 5th grade, doing away with tracking leaves only dumbed down expectations for our most gifted and brightest kids. Raising the bar for every child is a wonderful idea, but that still doesn’t mean that every child is equally capable of attaining those expectations. I have no grand ideas that my academically gifted child will be able to attain athletic prowess. Sports teams regularly have a top group, a middle group, and a lower group (i.e. varsity, JV, recreational/ intramural). It is all right to track kids for sports but not for academics? Kids who are years ahead of their peers in any subject or athletically, should be allowed to proceed, instead of being held back until some of their peers catch up. No wonder we are falling behind internationally, by 8th grade.

By Truth Filter

January 25, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this

ECLB,

We have to set expectations somewhere, right? And, in the end, there are some kids who will not reach them, some kids who will reach them and some who will exceed them.

The question is: Where do you set those expectations? Do you set them higher and hope student reach for them or do you set them low and allow the “varsity” kids to just go on ahead?

I believe that if you set expectations high, more kids will reach them.

By ECLB

January 25, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this

Truth, I completely agree that expectations need to be set high. But why hold the “varsity” kids back from continuing to exceed while the others catch up? Let’s say that the Ga DOE set the new math curriculum for first graders at the level of what is currently half way through second grade. In first grade, you will have kids who still struggle, kids who can meet the new expectation because they were performing a year above the old average previously, and kids who will continue to exceed because they were performing at least 2 years ahead of the old average. So, do we keep those “extra high performing” kids in the same math class with those who just barely squeaked by on the new minimum? Or do we let them move ahead and perhaps reach even higher levels? I’m not suggesting that the bottom teirs are not challenged to reach for even higher expectations. But, even if the standards are raised, there will still be kids at that very top level who will handily be able to exceed the new expectations. Some schools understand this and compact the math curriculum, pretest to see level of competence, and even allow kids to move to higher grades for math, if they are at that level. Why do we let kids sit bored in a classroom not learning because they have already mastered the material, but their peers have not? I’m all for raising the basic levels of expectation, but keeping gifted students in the regular classroom without any differentiation is a huge disservice. No wonder so many profoundly and highly gifted students end up homeschooling or in private schools—at least they have a better chance of having their academic needs met.

By Lisa B.

January 25, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

I would love to see a more challenging curriculum. I am tired of dumbing down education. However, those in charge also need to recognize that some students simply will not succeed, no matter how high our expectations.

By jim d

January 25, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

Lisa,

“those in charge also need to recognize that some students simply will not succeed, no matter how high our expectations.”

This they recognize. What they fail to recognize is that some students simply will not succeed, no matter how LOW our expectations are.

By Tom

January 25, 2007 12:38 PM | Link to this

The solution is the problem of course: the ideal is classes that have student sets with diverse ability and motivation levels, and while every student masters the primary, core skills, individual students based on are allowed, encouraged, and instructed to go deeper within each topic and expand the breadth of their skills. Yet how is a teacher - every teacher mind you - supposed to become proficient at managing a class that does this?

Having been a math teacher at various levels (high school, community college, four-year college) for ten years - trying to teach classes this way overwhelms the mind. I think you would be fortunate to find a very small group of educators who could manage classes this way and many capable teachers would themselves not have the ability or the motivation to try to handle such an incredibly large number of outcomes.

The truth is, I’m not certain that the public schools across the board can institute a plan like this and inevitably something will be sacrificed. In the ways we’ve already attempted to do it - by going to classes without separation of the strongest and weakest students - I would agree with ECLB that we’ve regressed with the best students while making minimal strides to bring up the weakest students.

The thing is, the actual mathematics skills (beyond the advancements in reasoning, logic, and problem management that occur by doing math) is still needed by a remarkably small number of students, yet the students who need the skills the most are not getting the mot out of their classes!

By SET

January 25, 2007 01:01 PM | Link to this

People who are disinterested in Calculus can be taught accounting. It’s the money, you see.

The more the public schools emphasize math in any way, the better. Students should be sorted periodically and encouraged to follow whichever thread of math that keeps their interest. But math in some form should be continuously taught. When students reach their math ceilings they should be taught to be very good at whatever level they settle in at.

Even cooking uses measurements.

By bob

January 25, 2007 01:55 PM | Link to this

I guess that they are just trying to drive out every smart kid out of school so that they can move more quickly to declaring all public schools as failures. It’s nuts to have a genius learning the same thing as a kid with an IQ of 80.

I guess that the gov’t just wants everyone to be equally dumb so that they can be controlled.

Algebra II my butt… I have a near genius IQ and algebra II almost killed me. To think that we can teach Algebra II to some kid with the brain function of a potato is just stupid.

By dragonlady

January 25, 2007 02:12 PM | Link to this

There is NO WAY many of our students today will pass Algebra II. This will cut down on the number of students graduating from high school.

Yet another way to label our schools as failures and our teachers inadequate. Sigh.

By Maria

January 25, 2007 02:19 PM | Link to this

Rather than algebra 2 being required of all students, how about a Personal Finance class instead? Even a semester would be a good start, though I doubt it’d be hard to come up with enough topics to fill out the class for a full year.

I’m in my 20s and it’s sad to meet people around my age who have no idea what APR is, or who wouldn’t have the first clue how to go about the process of saving for and buying a house. There’s certainly some math involved in personal finance, but a lot of it is good ol’ logic. And logic is the base of algebra. If the kids don’t have logic skills first, how can they succeed in an upper-level math class? If personal finance is taught as part of the math curriculum, the kids will at least get out of high school with some useful life skills, rather than getting to graduation with some muddled view of what binomials are.

I admit I enjoyed algebra. But I didn’t use it in college, and, as a writer, I certainly don’t use it now. I do need a solid basis in logic to be able to write the things I write.

Also, all that I learned about personal finance in school came from one teacher, an elderly substitute. When he subbed for our algebra 1 class, he lectured about credit cards and loans and other types of debt.

By JustMe

January 25, 2007 03:35 PM | Link to this

Sigh - another BS proposal for education from the republicans.

If Cox wanted to really make a positive impact on education, have parents take parenting classes! Many of todays parents have no clue how to discipline, teach right from wrong, etc. I had a conference today with a parent that believed everything her daughter said - and it was all lies! Imagine that, a youngster that lies to get out of trouble! Yet, the parent believed her hook, line, and sinker.

Education must be a uniform effort with teachers, parents and students. Without good parenting, the three-legged stool falls down. And, IMHO, this is what is mostly happening in schools, today. Cox wants to much with what teachers are doing to fix the fallen stool.

By jim d

January 25, 2007 03:39 PM | Link to this

Any of you teachers care to put a bit of bite into all the rhetoric?

TAG has a web site up and running here.

www.teachersallianceofgwinnett.com

By Kaab

January 25, 2007 03:46 PM | Link to this

The math curriculum in elementary school needs to be changed. Some of the basic arithmetic skill and drill needs to be brought back. That is why Kumon is so popular. As a math teacher for the past 11 years, I found that teaching any level of math is difficult when students don’t know basic arithmetic or can do simple mental math.

It think this and the combination of all the new technology that can be used with math classes from algebra on up would be the best fix for math education. I’m not talking about just computers or calculators. There are several add on pieces for calculators like tempurature probes, motion detectors, and light sensors. High school math class would involve more labs and students would see math in action and not just a bunch of numbers and equations.

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 25, 2007 04:07 PM | Link to this

Kathy Cox a data geek? When she was at the podium looking all the world like “And this little piggy won the ‘All you can eat’ roast beef buffet at the market” while bragging about CRCT scores, she sure wasn’t a “data geek” when the AJC asked her what the cut scores on for the CRCT’s were.

When it comes time to address the underreported discipline numbers (that still reach hundreds of thousands) she looks like she’s lost in Egypt…specifically in denial (The Nile, get it…groan:)

It’s like the earlier poster said more bs…it is unbelievable that when it comes to education, we seek as an intellectual beacon a man who took a perfectly adequate form of plant life and defiled it by taking it as a surname…

By HS Math Teacher

January 25, 2007 04:17 PM | Link to this

Ah. I love this.

Algebra is an ABSTRACT concept that requires ABSTRACT reasoning. Introducing basic ideas of algebra in lower grades is wonderful, but expecting sixth graders to be able to actually “do” algebra is ridiculous. Pick up any child/adolescent development book and you’ll see that kids that young just don’t have the abstract reasoning skills yet. But Georgia wants to be able to point to “look, we do Algebra in sixth grade” as if merely saying we do it means the kids learn it or understand it. In fact, pushing these subjects down only makes their achievement go DOWN, because then they get to high school and have to take Algebra 2, and have NO CLUE about any of the nitty-gritty of basic Algebra. (So what happens? We dumb down the Algebra 2. It’s a vicious cycle.)

Sure, all kids will pass Algebra 2. But the only school systems that might really consider it algebra 2 will be the ones who have to play by these new stupid rules, because the curriculum will be watered down so much. (Just when I thought it couldn’t get any worse than it already is. Even our gifted classes are ridiculous and would only be “college prep” back when I was in school.)

Here’s an idea — let’s keep working with our elementary and middle schoolers on fundamentals, such as fractions, times tables, etc., and leave the algebra for when they are mentally developed enough to understand it. (whcih isn’t to say that some kids aren’t ready to do it sooner. It’s just that the majority aren’t, and haven’t mastered the fundamentals yet, either, so they are doubly disadvantagd.) Then maybe when these students get to high school, I won’t have to drill multiplication facts with them and re-teach operations with fractions to sophomores.

Here’s another idea for the policy makers: Let’s make our curricula REASONABLE for the various courses we teach. In my county, our teachers’ editions give us pacing guides for the courses we teach. But our “look how good we are” mentality asks us to go TWICE AS FAST as the authors suggest! Our kids can’t pass the tests because we don’t give them time to LEARN the material — we just want to punch our ticket that we talked about it. For a millisecond.

This gets my dander up so much I want to pop. Everything about the system is broken and the “fixes” are counterintuitive to anyone with half a brain.

AAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!

By jim d

January 25, 2007 04:23 PM | Link to this

Holding,

I don’t care who ya are, that thar’s funny !!

By jim d

January 25, 2007 04:30 PM | Link to this

It never ceases to amaze me how smart people become once elected to an office.

Here we have a social studies teacher that has become the states greatest mathmatican simply by being elected to office. Scary to imagine how smart I’d be if I were to run for an office!

By OldSchool

January 25, 2007 04:34 PM | Link to this

Hey, HS Math Teacher, can we add the INCH to what elementary kids ought to know? As for fractions, I’ve got high school drafters who need a calculator to figure what half of one and a half is!

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 25, 2007 04:48 PM | Link to this

jim d,

Gotta give her credit as a social studies teacher…wasn’t able to get it into the curriculum, but was able to condense all of recorded history into one day (The “sixth day” if I’m not mistaken).

Note to Kathy Cox: Having 90% of kids pass a CRCT reading test that Terry Shiavo can pass, isn’t really “progress”…

By HS Math Teacher

January 25, 2007 05:09 PM | Link to this

Old School — those must be the same kids who think 1 1/4 inches is the same as 1.1 inches!

I have had “gifted” algebra 2 kids who couldn’t figure out that half of ANY fraction just means you double the denominator. Or better yet, couldn’t figure out WHY that “trick” works.

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 25, 2007 05:20 PM | Link to this

Posted on ajc.com at 1:56pm today by two ajc reporters: 30 students at Mt. Zion treated for pepper spray exposure, due to its use in breaking up a fight. Gee, Kathy kinda hard to convert those fractions with pepper spray in your eyes. Sure you don’t want to revisit…oh I don’t know…the discipline?

By Lisa B.

January 25, 2007 05:46 PM | Link to this

Holding,

GREAT post!

Hmmmm, better discipline leads to higher student achievement. What a novel idea :-)

I’m sure all those discipline problems will be so engaged with Algebra II that their behavior will improve drastically. After all, I keep hearing from the DOE that the kids are bored, unchallenged, and in need of more rigorous work.

So what if some of them don’t sit still long enough to learn the basics.

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 25, 2007 06:13 PM | Link to this

Lisa B.

So that’s why I’m hearing the word “rigorous” all of a sudden…it’s a DOE buzzword…

Of course when I’ve heard it, it’s been used as a noun as in “Rigorous must be evident in every classroom”.

Notice how “the experts” talk about improving “teacher quality” but never talk about improving administrator quality?

By HS Math Teacher

January 25, 2007 06:26 PM | Link to this

HoldingAJC …

Rigorous might be the buzzword, but the bottom line is that until administrators support teachers who try to bring back or maintain any rigor, it won’t happen. The curriculum is too watered down, because it goes too fast and there are too many kids who are misplaced; giving kids grades they really deserve or keeping the rigor in a course only opens the floodgates for parent complaints — their children are trying to get the HOPE, after all. Administrators bow to the parents, and in turn teachers who have high standards are bullied to … shall we say, adapt those standards to be more aligned with what will make everyone else happy. Who cares if the kids can’t factor, or graph a quadratic equation, or add fractions, or … or …

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 25, 2007 06:36 PM | Link to this

HS Math Teacher Re:”…bottom line is that until administrators support teachers who try to bring back or maintain any rigor…” I agree totally…on the other hand, maybe teachers need to support administrators. Teach them for example that “rigorous” is an adjective not a noun.

By KA

January 26, 2007 08:29 AM | Link to this

I have three smart kids, who graduated at the top of their HS classes and majored in architecture, engineering and economics in college, all subjects that require very good math skills. However, a couple of years ago when I had my three college kids in the car, and got gas, I asked them to figure my mpg. They said they couldn’t as nobody had a calulator with them. So, I said, “here’s paper and pencil, figure it out.” Again the answer was NO, as they needed a calculator! LONG DIVISION SKILLS were not to be seen! I can do long division in my head, and they couldn’t even do it on paper!

Elementary teachers need to focus first on skill and drill and mastery of addition, subtraction, multiplication and long division. All students should be able to recite and perform all of these functions that use up to two digit numbers and do it without caluclator or paper and pencil, in other words do it IN THEIR HEADS! Kids should be able to figure change from a dollar IN THEIR HEADS. They should be taught estimation skills, linear and weight measurements, basic geometry, AND living skills, like interest rates, credit card and checkbook use, and basic accounting! Put the abstract Algebra on hold until they have mastered the basic arithmetic required to complete algebraic equations.

By jim d

January 26, 2007 09:06 AM | Link to this

KA,

LOL, like that’s going to happen!

By Lee

January 26, 2007 09:12 AM | Link to this

KA, exactly.

Reminds me of a few years ago when my straight A, gifted, honors, etc, etc, daughter was in 7th grade. She was doing pre-algebra homework and asked me how do you divide fractions.

Say what??

Shouldn’t you have learned that in, I don’t know, the 4th or 5th grade?

RE, “Those new diploma standards are expected to require all kids to take a minimum of algebra II before they graduate. Right now, the superintendent said, only about 20 percent of Georgia’s graduates do.”

20%. Isn’t that about the same percentage of students who go on to college? The truth is, the higher level math is of no use to most students who do not plan to attend college. So why force it?

Teach them something they can use, like the concept of compound interest. Maybe then they can figure out why just making minimum payments on the credit card doesn’t make sense, or that 0% interest really isn’t.

By KA

January 26, 2007 09:20 AM | Link to this

Hello, Kathy Cox, are you reading this? Could someone call her up and tell her the best advice she can get for running our schools is found HERE in GET SCHOOLED!!!!

By Lee

January 26, 2007 09:22 AM | Link to this

JustMe, re “If Cox wanted to really make a positive impact on education, have parents take parenting classes! Many of todays parents have no clue how to discipline, teach right from wrong, etc.”

Still on your tirade against parents, I see.

Even worse if they’re Republican parents, eh?

LOL

By Mom of 3 gifted

January 26, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

Reform or Constructivist math is the problem. Watch this video from a Seattle meteorlogist, a state where many kids cannot pass the graduation test due to the emphasis placed on Reform math: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI&mode=related&search=

Any advanced math problems are tedious and frustrating if you do not know your addition and multiplication facts, COLD. With reform math, many kids who learn math facts (on the side) use only calculators in middle school and quickly forget the facts they memorized. California, Texas, NY, and now Washington state are great examples, and we should follow the lead of California and Texas re: reform math. (They do not use it). Ex. of reform math: TERC, Everyday Math, or Connected Mathematics. Few school districts have curriculum instructors who are proficient in math or enjoy math. Therefore, liberal arts majors are deciding which curriculum the students need, rather than consulting mathematicians or math educators.