Get Schooled

By KA

January 5, 2007 08:23 AM | Link to this

I agree that vo-tech career or college testing and placement would be much better than the one size fits all college prep track that most students are dumped into now. Japanese students perform at a high level because their parents start teaching them as babies, instilling discipline, and preparing them academically for school. The Japanese have high expectations for their children’s success, and they hold them accountable. I would say that only the top 15% of American students have similarly involved parents. The next 15% have parents who are involved but don’t push as hard, and 70% of kids have parents who expect the school to do it all, and if their kid succeeds, great, but if he fails then it’s the school’s fault. These percentages are just my best guess, not based on any published studies or stats, just my observations over the years my kids were in school.

By lovelyliz

January 5, 2007 09:24 AM | Link to this

But look at the suicide rate among Japanese school children.

Thgere has to be a happy medium.

By Stacey

January 5, 2007 09:26 AM | Link to this

Yes, I think testing for vocational aptitude is a good idea. As I’ve mentioned before, when I was in high school we chose whether we wanted to focus on getting a general diploma, college prep or vocational and the curriculum (beyond core curriculum) was designed around it. It’s true that not everyone wants (nor needs) a college education to succeed.

By College

January 5, 2007 09:40 AM | Link to this

There is alot more to the reasoning of why the Japenese kids do better in school then discipline, idiot. Also having a vocational track can sometimes lead teachers into pushing certain students to that area when there may be other answers. All kids should have a track that will lead into a college level or trade school level, keep it out of the high school, kids can’t make there minds up that fast anyway, and this is not a communist country.

By HS Teacher Too

January 5, 2007 09:58 AM | Link to this

Oh “College” — next you join this blog, please try to engage in mature debate. To hop on and call someone an idiot because you disagree with them counters any intelligent point you might make in your post. But best of all, what’s perfectly ironic is that two sentences later, you use “there” instead of “their.” This definitely undermines any point of calling anyone ELSE an idiot.

By KA

January 5, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

College, WHO are you calling an IDIOT?

By KA

January 5, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Cross blog alert! Go to the ‘Political Insider’ blog for a topic on an upcoming Ga. legislature bill regarding alternative funding for the arts in public schools. (Bridget, this is the kind of topic I would like to see here.)

By Jen

January 5, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

“I would say that only the top 15% of American students have similarly involved parents. The next 15% have parents who are involved but don’t push as hard, and 70% of kids have parents who expect the school to do it all, and if their kid succeeds, great, but if he fails then it’s the school’s fault.”

Funny how people make up statistics based on their opinions.

This would read much more legitimate this way:

“I would say that only the top few of American students have similarly involved parents. A few others have parents who are involved but don’t push as hard, and most kids have parents who expect the school to do it all, and if their kid succeeds, great, but if he fails then it’s the school’s fault.”

By Gerald

January 5, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

I’ve seen Japanese parents do the homework for their kids, because they know it’s all about scoring! After a core success, the kids can decide which way they want to go in life because they have now qualified for an accepted standard.

My mother taught in Atlanta public schools for over 30 years. She said her last year was the worst. When I asked why, she said…”no dicipline”. Today, if you slap the wrist of an inattentive student, you could find yourself escorted out of the building in handcuffs!

That’s the difference!

By KA

January 5, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this

liz, I have seen those stories and stats on Japanese student suicides. My question: Is there a similar suicide rate among American HS students that are performing at a high level and whose parents who have the same high expectations and accountbility standards? I don’t think so. I think the Japanese student suicide rate has a lot to do with their culture, where shame is imposed upon those who fail, and they bring shame to their family as well. Japanese are group oriented, where Amercians are individually oriented. An Amercian student’s failure in school does not bring shame upon his family like it does in Japan.

By KA

January 5, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

Jen, I said my percentages were based on my personal observations. Why don’t you tell us what YOU think instead of editing my post? IMO your post was wasted time and space.

By SET

January 5, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

Japan is a monoculture nation that uses force to prevent even the slightest infiltration of multicultural service workers. That’s why they have inkjet printers modified to paint women’s nails. Darn right their high school bands are all in lockstep.

They are different than the multicultural USA. You can’t make comparisons. We can’t go near them in consistent development and performance of our kids because we are not uniform. And we don’t want to be.

So this comparison is pointless.

A ruthless imposition of standards here like in Japan would result in our black students being removed wholesale from the academic schools with a majority of the hispanic students following them out the door. Remember, only One in Six US Blacks tests at or above the White Average in IQ, and Jews and Asians have a similar distribution gap over the whites (as seen at any university that stops protecting white enrollment such as the UC Berkeley School of Engineering). A pure meritocracy based on brainpower is politically untenable here.

Besides, brainpower isn’t enough to make it in the world or in society. The so-smart Japanese have been fleeced financiallty by US based corporate organizations - they lost WWII and have never been able to operate as a world power for any significant time. There are vital skillsets beyond brain processing speed required for deploying force and power as well as inventing and selling light bulbs. These do not reside with the super-intelligent. Think of it as nature’s balancing act.

The Japanese & Koreans are not captains of industry but they are exceedingly good at mass production. Their stock looks great now, but not over human history. Even they require the participation of the rest of the world to reach their current success. Sure we can learn from them. They do not tolerate failure. We feed failure.

We would do well to notice the more multicultural city-states such as Malaysia and Singapore that have done so much with a racially more diverse and less wealthy population. They exterminate criminals, they do not encourage reproduction of anti-socials, and they run schools with more discipline and less money. They also have a free society where people can stay or leave.

All of us already know what has to be done with our proletariat training schools - our public school system. Segregation of the students by track, imposition of standards with removal as the penalty for failure, and choice, choice, choice (Vocational and industrial training from puberty on for those not able to maintain an academic program).

And no more throwing money at people who can’t perform with their peers - money should follow talent, not druggies and damaged goods.

By LHK

January 5, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this

I taught ESL in Japan in 2003 and 2004. Talk about culture shock, especially for the meek little 23-year-old I was then! Something to note is that Japan’s culture is very much about conformity. While this has been changing within the last decade, especially in the urban areas, it’s still the norm there for people to value what their neighbors value, and to want to be seen as functioning parts of a greater whole than as entities unto themselves. There’s a great emphasis based on work, and kids, even from a young age, come to realize that school is their job… and so they view their job as students the same way we view our actual positions of employment: they do it because they have to do it, and they’re there when the “boss” requires them to be there. Clubs and sports are mandatory in some schools, and you’ll see kids in their school uniforms on the train on Saturday morning, heading to school for a club, or an extra class, or soccer practice. They are constantly reminded of the connection between school and work, and to risk not having employment, or the “right” employment, is to risk not being seen as a part of the culture as a whole.

This benefits the ones who excel at testing, memorization, and following the rules (though some of the high school kids I taught were totally exhausted a lot of the time. Also, there’s a strange and growing phenomenon of Japanese high school students who completely isolate themselves as a form of rebellion — say, a kid locking himself in his bedroom and not coming out for a month), but I never really knew what happened to the kids who couldn’t cut it in school — you have to apply and test into both junior high and high school there. I’m not sure what happens to the kids who can’t get accepted anywhere. Do they just not go to middle school?

A couple things Japan does get right: mandatory foreign language instruction from late elementary school on up, and mandatory uniforms. Oh, and healthier lunches!

By College

January 5, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this

Oh Highschool teacher too, you are so grammatically correct, and so smart, and by the way liberal I can say whatever I want on any blog, what the hell does the way I spell on a blog mean anyway? Obviously if you are a highschool techer please do not try and act smarter then me. And KA I was callint the writer an idiot, but after reading yours, you fit in thier too. Are you Japenese? Where do you get your facts, TV?

By jim d

January 5, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

As has been rightfully pointed out, culture plays a larger role in differences. One must ask though, Who will be deciding what each of “your children” would be doing should a system of early childhood tracking were put in place, and what if you disagreed with that decision? Which I’m confident no one that would advocate for such drivel would ever have cause to do, because all of their children are special. Let’s really ask ourselves if we would want to give that over to Government?

A great american once said “give me liberty or give me death”. Are there any left that would make that statement today? I’m not too sure after reading some of this.

By KA

January 5, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

jim d, I think we are talking about career/vo-tech and college tracking for HS, not for early childhood education, where they need to be mastering reading, writing and ‘rithmetic, all to the tune of the HICKORY STICK (discipline).

By KA

January 5, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this

College, Home sick from Middle School today? I think it’s time you took a nap.

By jim d

January 5, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

14, then 13, then 10 then 5 year olds. The trend would be irreversible. Even at 14 I don’t feel government should be entrusted with deciding our childrens future. I assure you KA, that for every Liberty we have willingly given up—at least two more have been taken. Just look at whats come from the Patriot act and take a glance at the Patriot Act II, in current times.

No ma’am, I stand with Patric henry’s contentions earlier in that momentous speech that go something like this.

“The question before the house is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, **I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery

This still appears to me to be the same question, only being asked 232 years later in another fashion. Personally—I chose freedom and liberty.

By TinaTeach

January 5, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

The problem in our society is that we have raised a college degree to the level of “the almighty” practically. If you enter high school with the idea that you are going to go to technical school or :gasp: directly into the work force then you are considered a failure from the get-go. I think that we should strongly suggest that everyone entering high school work as if they are going to go to college but I know that anywhere from 20 to 40 percent of my students will not go to college. They will instead go to a trade school, a technical college, or directly into the workforce. But we have put such a stigma on those that do not aspire to reach college that many try who are not the right type for a four year institution. I really don’t know where I’m going with this but this whole “one size fits most” education idea has got to go out the door.
As for discipline, I wish that we could send them to the principal sometimes to get a spanking, this might be very effective in high school due to how much they’d hate it. Kids are a lot tougher than we think but we have allowed a generation of political correctness and lawsuits and people who go too far to dictate the punishments that go on in school and I’m sorry but detention doesn’t really cut it anymore.

By Old Skool

January 5, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

It all starts and ends with discipline. Once you take ‘discipline’ out of a teachers hands, no education program can succeed. The system lost control when the threat of physical repercussions for ones actions was removed from our educational process. Sometimes little ‘Timmy’ doesn’t need time out, he needs his butt beat! Not to any extent of abuse but only to let him know who’s in control and what effort is expected and required of him to get a proper education. This is why kids are now running the asylum.

By College Student

January 5, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

I studied in Japan for six months last year while attending Georgia State. The culture in Japan centers around the contribution that each person can make to the society as a whole. Many of the college students that I was studying with expressed being unsatisfied with the “career path” that had been chosen for them. One wanted to go into politics, but was “chosen” to get an education as a business moderator.

I think the point is that some students, whether Japanese or American, do not take tests well. Look at Einstein. He was deemed retarded at an early age. I am working on my Phd at GA State, but if I had grown up in Japan, I would be a garbage collector. I could not take tests well in middle school or high school and failed many of them. The Japanese culture does not care that a child has a learning disability, only that each fits the “mold” for a particular career/education path. I would not want that for my children. We have freedoms for a reason. Yes, our education system is lacking and needs to be overhauled, but not to the extreme of the Japanese. Bring back discipline to the schools and I think we would see dramatic results.

By College Dad

January 5, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this

I studied in Japan for six months last year while attending Georgia State. The culture in Japan centers around the contribution that each person can make to the society as a whole. Many of the college students that I was studying with expressed being unsatisfied with the “career path” that had been chosen for them. One wanted to go into politics, but was “chosen” to get an education as a business moderator.

I think the point is that some students, whether Japanese or American, do not take tests well. Look at Einstein. He was deemed retarded at an early age. I am working on my Phd at GA State, but if I had grown up in Japan, I would be a garbage collector. I could not take tests well in middle school or high school and failed many of them. The Japanese culture does not care that a child has a learning disability, only that each fits the “mold” for a particular career/education path. I would not want that for my children. We have freedoms for a reason. Yes, our education system is lacking and needs to be overhauled, but not to the extreme of the Japanese. Bring back discipline to the schools and I think we would see dramatic results.

By KA

January 5, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Offering students tests that assess their abilities and suggest career paths is a good thing. IMO it’s better to educate the kids early and often about vocations, professions, careers and the courses they need to prepare themselves for the endeavors they choose. Only when they are presented the different career paths can they can begin to appreciate the appliction of their studies to a real world job. Right now many students don’t know why they have to study some subjects; they are not motivated; not goal oreinted; and don’t know that they even have a choice and should be participating in choosing their paths! Their HS choices are so narrow that they don’t know they could do beyond HS except COLLEGE, which we all agree is NOT for everyone!

By SET

January 5, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

College: Your writing indicates you are a child. You are on a blog with adults. If you want to be able to play here you have to learn how to handle yourself in public discourse.

Inability to control your emotions and namecalling is classic kid behavior. It doesn’t work here regardless of your politics.

Stick around and learn something. Comment about what you have seen and what you have experienced. We can always use points of view from different generations as well as different parts of the world.

Don’t come in here and address another blogger the way you have been doing. You are revealing more about yourself and not adding something to the debates.

By jim d

January 5, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

KA,

This isn’t about education its more about the future of this country.

I believe we have to have the power to choose our own way, to be true to our own beliefs and ourselves, to be our own person, to be free sovereign autonomous individuals, that we have the Right to self-determination. We must be ever vigilant in order to pass that to the next generation so that our childrens children can be free to be all that they can be in what I hope remains the freest of nations. If we surrender that freedom, we surrender all hope for the future.

By Lisa B.

January 5, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

Go SET!

As a nonconformist myself who believes in the importance of individuals and independent thought, I prefer to offer choices in education. The problem we have here is that no matter how well students test in public schools, they are stuck wherever they happen to live. Students take tests to get into universities, jobs, etc. It seems we have choices about nearly everything in America except where our children attend public school. I think school choice and some good, old competition would do wonders for public education. I prefer to avoid the militaristic route.

By jim d

January 5, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this

Folks,

If you like the testing craze we are currently in. You’ll just love what Government would do with a vocational tracking test. (ya’ll are way too trusting or I’m way too paranoid)

By KA

January 5, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

I think that career tracking can be accomplished without pigeonholing someone too early with no way to change. HS could adopt the college model where you complete your core courses, then choose a major track with inter disciplinary or crossover electives that would allow you to move over to another area if you change your mind. Many high schools had this type of system in place before vo-tech fell out of fashion.

By eye roll

January 5, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

I am reminded that communist and the nazi’s also put the children in a specific discipline and let them learn on this type track….they did produce top athletes, top ballet, top musicians, top lots of things…but at what cost?

More rigid testing in schools is a must…children in HS may benefit from a career assessment, but to tell a person who wants to persue a professional track no they need to do a vocational one because of ….. or vice versa is wrong (I would place money that top musicians could also do well in mathemtical career fields)….

I do think that Vocational programs need to be in school…auto shop, drafting, JROTC, etc can provide skills for life! (Regardless of the actual path taken!).

By Pricipal

January 5, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

KA, I am just wondering where you get the “one size fits all” stance on college educations? You say it is based on your observations while your kids were in school. How many times did you observe a counseling session or a classroom?

The truth is, that most school systems have a myriad of choices for students. The issue with American education is the FACT that government is involved. Why do you think private schooled children get better SAT scores? Why do Ivy League schools cater to privately educated students? Get government out of schools and put the power back where it belongs, with parents and educators. Level the playing field where ALL Americans can receive the same level of education, IF THEY DESIRE.

I am a pricipal at a Metro Atlanta high school and have been in education for 30 years. I have a monthly meeting with any parent that would like to discuss issues at my school. In November, I had 6 parents (out of 715 students) show up. Most were upset about the systems willingness to change the school calendar instead of tackling the issue of discipline and respect.

In MY OPINION as a 30 year educator, we have three issues that must be addressed within public schools. 1) Discipline 2) Teacher training 3) Get politicians out of education. Let’s face it, the NO-CHILD-LEFT-BEHIND law does not work.

By KA

January 5, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

jim, Right now HS students are presented with few choices for learning and career paths. Helping students to assess their strengths and interests, and to actively participate in choosing their path would give the students the self-determination you are talking about.

By High School Student

January 5, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

First let me ask: DO NOT CRUCIFY ME BECAUSE I AM A HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT. I am a Senior at a local high school and I have to chime in on this blog. I have a 3.95 GPA and education is very important to me. But to add ANY MORE TESTS would be a disaster. The stress of a HS student today is much different that when most of you bloggers went to HS. I already have 3 hours of homework per night and I study for an average of 6 tests per week. I run track and am in several clubs. Some of my friends are not on the college tyrack, but have similar schedules. If a school has counselors that are educated and informed, there should be no reason for an additional test. I took three tests this year already that were designed to show mw where my strengths and weaknesses were, my interests and my “suggested” career path. Any more tests and I WILL REVOLT!!!!!!!!

By G

January 5, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

This is hardly restricted to Japan. The great majority of the industrialized world has some sort of “divide the sheep from the goats” testing system to decide (or at least influence) high school academics vs. vocational/technical tracks. This is not Communism, it’s not slavery, it’s not a loss of personal freedom. It’s common sense.

Over my 30 years of teaching, I’ve seen far too many students messed up by the college prep mentality. Considering that voc/tech training accounts for a minority of the program money when the majority of students are not true college material …

By KA

January 5, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

HS Student, welcome! Glad to know that you have been tested for your strengths and interests. Do you think your school offers enough career path choices for you and others? What would you change about the structure of HS classes as far as vo-tech, CP and advanced class offerings?

By High School Student

January 5, 2007 01:01 PM | Link to this

And by the way - KA, I had too many choices in middle school and high school. It is up to the parents and students to schedule time with a conselor and go over options. I did this while in middle school, just by asking. Most of my friends waited until they were told to meet with their counselor durin their junior or senior year in HS. Each student/parent must take personal responsibility for the education the student receives. Testing only prooves that a student is good at taking a test, not at actually performing.
My dad is a deirector of a major human resource office in Atlanta. He has stories after stories about people that can “fake” in an interview, but can not actually perform on the job. Why base my “suggested path” on just one test? My counselor asked me 100 or so questions during three sessions before suggesting an educational path. That is more reasonable that “just take this test and we (politicians?) will suggest the path you ‘SHOULD’ take”. I could not choose a path in middle school! I would have taken the easiest path possible. But if you start one educational path, it is very difficult to change that path. The tech program has dramatically different schedule than the college prep program.

So you see, another test to tell me what I should already know about myself is useless. And get real, I can not remember stuff that was taught to me in elementary school. So why introduce the different programs then. I see it as another waste of money and my time.

By KA

January 5, 2007 01:01 PM | Link to this

Principal, I think you have confused me with another blogger. I said nothing about “one size fits all college educations.” I do think too many HS students are placed in the College Prep track who are not college material. I would like to see more vocational opportunites for them. I am not a teacher, and not an expert, just a mom. I haven’t said anything about higher SAT scores at private schools. My kids went through GCPS schools, had high GPA’s and SAT’s, and are doing well in college now. I agree with your three issues. I think that NCLB should be changed to Every Child Working to Potential.

By OldSchool

January 5, 2007 01:05 PM | Link to this

IN MY VERY OWN OPINION: It is very possible to map out a 4 year course of study that would prepare a student for college, technical college, or the world of work. Take the academic courses required for a CP diploma and add electives appropriately. (I’m not certain if it is true for all schools but at ours Foreign Language is an elective AND 2 units are required for a CP diploma.)

Granted, not every student will be successful in courses like Physics, Chemistry, Trig, Calculus, or even the Algebras but then again not every student will be successful in PE or Drivers’ Ed. So? Maybe it’s time to realize that failure is an option and life is full of difficult choices.

Aptitude and interest testing might help the student make sensible choices but only if the student takes the testing seriously instead of “Christmas Tree-ing” his or her answers.

We need to put the options out there and try to help students make informed decisions and choices and then hold their feet to the fire. When potential employers beg for workers who will just “show up on time, return from lunch on time, and do their job safely” we need to respond by expecting the same in school and holding them to it.

I’m an Engineering Drawing instructor and a dang good one but I can’t always motivate a totally disinterested student or one who is dumped in my class because there is no place else to put him. It’s not fair to the interested students, to me or to potential employers or colleges.

Bring back closed down CTAE shops; update and fund existing ones; revive Industrial Arts in the high school and ditch those ridiculous “Technology Ed” classes that are no more than tinker toys with electricity. And while you’re at it…

…just let us teach.

By JustMe

January 5, 2007 01:06 PM | Link to this

I do not think that the issue here is to ADD tests, but rather to completely change HOW we test.

IMHO, it would be great to have an exit test from middle school to determine if a student should be steared towards a general college prep, a science/engineer/medical type college prep, a liberal arts college prep, a vocational education, etc. We could then get rid of these ridiculous EOCT and HSGT. Each type of diploma would have its own curriculum to focus on its unique demands.

After that, all is needed is the SAT or ACT (and HS GPA) for a college to determine if the student is accepted or not!

By fed up

January 5, 2007 01:14 PM | Link to this

No need for tests for tracking kids. How about just observing the students motivation and behavior as they advance through school? There is no sense in continuing to try to push a kid who WILL NOT (as opposed to cannot) learn. If a kid is habitually skipping school, causing trouble in the class and blowing of school and homework, that child should be removed from the system and put to work in hard, manual labor.

This way, some of these idiots with their pants hanging to their ankles who see school only as an opportunity to “hook up,” might think twice when they see what happened to some of their friends who CHOSE the manual labor path through their contined antisocial actions. It is a complete disservice to kids who are trying to make something of themselves to have their educations jeopardized by these punks and punkettes. It is also a supreme waste of taxpayer money.

I am opposed to standardized tests to determine career paths because I am opposed to standardized tests at all, except perhaps as a diagnostic tool to help the teacher see where eveyone is at key points of the year.

There is no need for tracking by using tests, all you have to do is observe the long term, repeated behavior of a student. That will tell you all you need to know about the right track for them.

Using the “long term observation” method also allows each student to CHOOSE their path. The ones who don’t want an education will be given the opportunity to learn manual labor while those who show year after year that overall, they want to learn and become someone will actually get a chance to do so. All kids make mistakes and act like idiots, but after a decade of observation and recording of behavior, motivation, etc., you get a pretty good picture of the type of student you have before you.

We have a wonderful new teacher at one of my kid’s schools who may leave at the end of the year because a couple of girls (10 year olds) have stolen money from him… TWICE and a few kids in the class have just generally gone feral. Was anything done about it? No, after the SECOND offense, the cute little theives got in school suspension. Now…. I bet you $1000 that these girls will be up to the same c__p at 18 - hopefully I am wrong.

By KA

January 5, 2007 01:18 PM | Link to this

Just Me, I agree with you, change how we test! HS student said he’s a Senior and has had three test this year to determine his strengths and weaknesses. Testing in the senior year is way late. Why not test in middle school and again in 9th or 10th grade to see how the student’s interests are trending or changing.

By grammargirl

January 5, 2007 01:20 PM | Link to this

Hey old school, FYI “disinterested” means not biased/objective.

I believe that the word you mean to use in uninterested.

You teachers need to get this stuff right.

By Janine

January 5, 2007 01:23 PM | Link to this

KA [ and all ] …regarding your suggestion for renaming NCLB. A colleague sent me an article in Education Week that is so right on about NCLB. Here is the link”\: http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2006/11/29/13rothstein.h26.html

By KA

January 5, 2007 01:25 PM | Link to this

fed up, I am not a fan of standardized tests, but I do like the idea of kids taking a skills, interests and abilities survey that then tells them a list of careers that use their combination of talents. Then educate them about what courses and grades are needed to get into those careers. Do this in Middle School and early HS and have them choose what path they want to take. Provide core courses for all, but give more career path choices among the college and non college careers.

By Stacey

January 5, 2007 01:27 PM | Link to this

Judging from the majority of the posts, I guess my view on this is too simplistic.

KA…You seem to be describing the way my high school was. As I remember it, it was a choice (I may be wrong about that) rather than being forced to take CP, vo/tech, etc. College prep courses truly were college prep (which I understand usually isn’t the case nowadays). AP classes were offered for the first time during my senior year (by invitation only) in Compostion, Calculus and Physics.

Vo/tech offered training in several different fields. Some of the graduates went straight in to the workforce and others went to trade school for more specialized training. As some one pointed out yesterday, most of them are doing better than I am considering my education and training hasn’t always kept up the job trends.

By jim d

January 5, 2007 01:30 PM | Link to this

KA,

I respect what you’re saying but here’s my problem.

Once sorted then what? Maybe it’s just my distrust of government to actually act in the best interest of the public. It seems to operate around its own agenda and my expierence is that agenda is about lining the pockets of a few friends. I hate that I feel the way I do, but politians of late have done very little to convince me otherwise.

By KA

January 5, 2007 01:34 PM | Link to this

grammargirl, where did your definition come from? Here’s the Merriam Webster def. of disinterest: : to cause to regard something with no interest or concern IMO Old School used the word correctly. Old School, I like what you said, “We need to put the options out there and try to help students make informed decisions and choices and then hold their feet to the fire.”

By V for Vendetta

January 5, 2007 01:35 PM | Link to this

Wow, some very interesting comments today on a VERY sticky subject. I’m glad we have an actual high school student on the blog as well, I think that’s a point of view we have been sorely lacking.

I’m torn on this one. On one hand, I shudder at the thought of more tests for any reason. At the same time however, we are going down a dark and dangerous path. The belief that all kids should go to college is at the core of our educational imploding. How do we fix it? Well, it’s easier said than done.

I think that EVERY high school should start having more vocational/technical options. Some have said that choice could be part of the problem, and I don’t disagree with that, but perhaps melting the traditional college-track with a useful offering of vocational classes would yield an environment where kids could find themselves a path that interested them. This of course would make the most sense at the high school level.

None of this will work however if we do nothing about parents who demand that their child be placed on a track that is most obviously inappropriate for him. Also, we MUST do something about the kids who have no interest in school and make no effort to find themselves a path to follow. If a kid cant behave or attend school like a decent human being, the alternative is to send him to a jail-ish school like the YDC. It’s as simple as that.

I know people are going to say that if that kid ends up in jail he will become an instant tax drain, but there is a solution for that as well — pot.

Legalize it, tax it, and sell it, and watch the money roll in. The money made through taxes (and saved in the drug war), would more than pay for these society leeches. It would also free up some jail space! Ok, I know, it sounds silly, but I think it would work!

By OldSchool

January 5, 2007 01:38 PM | Link to this

Thank you, grammargirl. I stand corrected.

Could you possibly be one of my students? They seem to hear/see only my mistakes and ignore the meat of the material I offer them each day.

By High School Student

January 5, 2007 01:40 PM | Link to this

KA - to answer your questions - 1) I wish that there had been more vocational classes for me and my peers to take. But everytime we asked for a class to be added, we were always given the “lack of funds” speech by our school board members. A few years ago, I took several classes at a local college during the summer to broaden my knowledge and to see if any of the vocations interested me. The program is available to all HS juniors and only costs around $35 per class for a three day session. Six of my peers also took classes with me, even though I put the information on my school’s webpage and in the school newspaper. 2) If I could change one thing about public HS, it would be the complacency of some of my friends. Most teachers liked complacent students because they presented the least amount of problems for them. THAT IS WRONG. In my political science class, I was deemed a trouble maker because of my views and my willingness to express them.
3) If I could change one thing about the class structure, it would be to make it POSSIBLE to change your mind on a path once you start. After becoming a sophomore, your path is set (unless you want to go from college prep to a tech diploma). To move from a tech diploma to a college prep diploma is almost impossible after your sophomre year. There are too many classes to make up. It is impossible to do in just 2 years. And I would change the fact that everything I do from middle school through high school followed me. I got into a fight in the sixth grade, and it is still in my permanent file. I WAS 11 YEARS OLD!!!!! I failed a class in the seventh grade, and it is still there as a reminder that I was an irresponsible CHILD!!!! Please remember that WE ARE NOT ADULTS and most of us can not handle the level of stress that adults do.

What most adults do not realize is that MOST kids want to succeed, but when you make it to where only the kids that are smart (sheep) are seperated from the stupid (goats) AS G PUT IT ABOVE, most of the goats will shut down and become trouble makers.

No matter how you look at it, any type of testing to determine placement is pigeonholing. The CRCT tests that my sister took this year pigeonholed her as being in a certain percentile of a norm. Who sets the norm???? The SAT tests I took pigeonholed me to a certain list of colleges. Who decided that a 900 score indicates your dumb and a 1600 score means you are intelligent? A friend of mine can build a computer out of a toothpick and a stick of gum, but he has been locked out of the best colleges because he did not make a certain score on his SAT. What a shame!! He is so frustrated. But he is convinced he can be another Bill Gates without the best college education. I hope he does.

My blog has turned into a vent, but I think I get my point accross. I am tired of adults thinking they know what is best for me. I am old enough to get shot in Iraq, so I think I am old enough to make my own decisions about my future. I do not, not ever have, needed a test to tell me what “path” I should take.

By KA

January 5, 2007 01:41 PM | Link to this

jim, your son is cruising through CP classes and you said he’s gifted. So why isn’t he in all honors or gifted classes? If he had been adequately counseled and informed before this year, might he have chosen all honors classes? He can still try to take some AP classes next year, but he may not have taken the prereq. classes for some of them. I am simply suggesting giving students more information so that their choices are better informed. See Old School’s post, he said it better than I can.

By jim d

January 5, 2007 01:41 PM | Link to this

Am I the only one that remembers some of the worst offenders in High School?

They barely slid into college but tuffed it out and today are Doctors, lawyers, policeman, Priests and other professionals that truly contribute to society.

Should we have taken these kids and sent them down a tech track?

By Jeff

January 5, 2007 01:59 PM | Link to this

Principal:

I’ve expressed the idea often on this blog that Colleges of Education should expand Student Teaching into more of a 1 year supervised internship. I know that they will not do this though, because it will make them look bad when so many students drop out in their senior year. Is this type of reform waht you mean by “Teacher training”?

By KA

January 5, 2007 02:07 PM | Link to this

HS Student, you will do well in college and beyond because you are a thinker. There have to be gatekeeper assessments at certain points in your education that allow you to move to a higher level, stay where you are or get remedial help. That is needed, but most standardized tests are flawed and the schools don’t even use them for remediation, so your time was wasted taking them. IMO, the SAT doesn’t pigeonhole you, it just shows how open or closed your list of opportunities are for college acceptance. Those that are bright, study well AND test well will have more choices. The smart ones that don’t test well will have to work a different angle to get where they want to go. I agree with you that you don’t need another test now as a senior to determine your path. I think that career assessment tests should be given in middle and early high school grades to help inform kids to make the best choices for them in high school. Good Luck to you! Where are you going after HS?

By jim d

January 5, 2007 02:11 PM | Link to this

KA,

He recieved counsel. Maybe not the best, but the best GCPS had to offer at his particular school.

As for his choices? Nope, I doubt he’d have done it differently and I’m one of these dads that will allow my child to make mistakes. This one may cost me a few dollars but at the price I believe it’ll be a lesson he won’t forget and be one he’ll carry with him forever.

He’s going to be just fine and will accomplish whatever goals he sets for himself. I quit setting goals for him nearly 12 years ago, since then he’s remained an honor student with nearly perfect attendance, earned his Eagle Rank in scouting, a Brown belt in karate, learned to fly a plane, survived week long hikes in the backcountry and mountains of new mexico, rafted some of this county’s greatest rivers, and is currently undergoing intensive training to become the best he can be in a particular sport.

My legacy to him is that he can be whatever he wants to work at being as long as he’s willing to make the commitment. With that legacy, I’m confident he will meet his full potential at whatever it is he decides to do, regardless of at what age he makes the choice.

In other words—we don need no stinkin test.

By High School Student

January 5, 2007 02:23 PM | Link to this

In response to fed-up above: I guess you would have put me away then. Last year I was arrested for racing on a public street. I was deemed a trouble maker by several of my teachers because I am so out-spoken and I was thrown out of a track meet last year because I verbally assaulted a judge (I was tripped and he said I was just a sore loser). Do these things make me one of those manual labor candidates? If you left it up to some of my teachers, I would say yes. What everyone is forgetting is that making mistakes is part of being a kid!!! Should I be held accountable for the rest of my life for something I did when I was 11 years old? I hope not. Again, I say, parents support your kids and the education process, IT IS WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT. To students I say, WAKE UP BEFORE YOUR FUTURE PASSES YOU and to all you bloggers, I say LIVE IT BEFORE YOU SPEAK IT.

Until society changes the requirements that a college places on students, the HS experience will not change. In order for me to get into the college of my choice, I had to have a perfect GPA, a steady mix of sports, academic and social clubs and so may volunteer hours. I had to show that I was “that college” material. It does not matter that I hold ALMOST a perfect GPA, and that I am an all-state runner, or that I held the vice-presidents chair for a club for two years. Even though I met all of their criteria, I was denied acceptance. Why? I was told that I did not do “enough” in HS.

The stress on HS students today is tremendous. I have personally known two kids in my school career that could not take all of the stresses that was thrown at them and took their own life. Please, I beg of each of you to not put any additional stress on the kids, take some away. Let them be kids. Do not make them grow up before they are ready. Most middle school kids are not ready to get advice on future education. For those that are, many programs are already available to help them. Do not make another layer of pigeonholing by making all middle school and ninth graders take this test. If it is put in public schools, it will be mandetory.

And just to give you an real life example of why some of the suggestions on this blog would not work: A very prominant politician told me at church (after my arrest) that he was kicked out of school for fighting and racing on school property as a junior in HS. Before becoming a politician, he was Dean of a major college and held seats on the Board of Directors of several Corporations. The principal that kicked him out of school was fired a few years later after being convited of having sex with one of his students. This politician was just a kid that found himself AFTER he graduated from HS. Tests as a middle school or freshman student would have indicated he was suitable for a manual labor job. NOw he is one of the smartest people I know.

By KA

January 5, 2007 02:23 PM | Link to this

jim, on the one hand you lament what the control government holds over our kids in public school, then you say that your son who is in public school doing just fine. And the point I want to make is that he is making good choices and will do well beyond HS because you were a good parent and he’s disciplined and hard working, etc. SOOO who will be harmed by better informed students, more HS class choices in more career paths?

By Jay

January 5, 2007 02:25 PM | Link to this

Pardon the digression, but I read an article recently about the lack of skilled labor in the U.S. Companies contend that there aren’t enough college-educated workers to fill their white-collar positions. This is ridiculous. The real problem is the insular way much of corporate America defines “skilled labor”: only those with a business/economics or hard science.

Obviously engineering positions require engineering degrees and accounting positions require accounting degrees. However, there’s no reason liberal arts majors shouldn’t be considered for jobs that are currently only open to those who studied garden variety marketing or management—especially when the alternative is a short staff.

Human resources departments need to exert a little more effort in determining who is a qualified candidate and who isn’t. I’m confident the supply is out there to meet the demand.

By KA

January 5, 2007 02:26 PM | Link to this

Janine, Thanks for the link on the NCLB article. I read it and then went and posted on the NCLB comment blog, suggesting Every Student Working to Potential. Maybe someone will get the hint!

By SET

January 5, 2007 02:34 PM | Link to this

Jim D: The worst offenders (potheads, alkies, thieves) in my HS did not become the Drs and the Lawyers. They became dead. They didn’t make it. They disappeared. They also got expelled or transferred out before HS Graduation.

Those in my HS class (200) who became Drs and Lawyers & Judges (5% to 10%) came from a very specific band of temperment and family history. They had staying power, some of them had something to prove (especially the girls). They may have taken risks but planned things and didn’t get caught. They very specifically did not have narcotics problems and they were not the speed racers (cars were very important in the 60’s and early 70’s!). Another 10% of the class became super rich in their own right from inventions, software, real estate and businesses.

The speed racers generally became cops and they generally retired at 53 with 90% pensions on 6 figure incomes - and are on 2nd careers picking up a second paycheck and retirement system.

We all had a really good time back then - even with that Viet Nam thing. Univ of CA was only $600/year. Nobody graduated not knowing how to read and write. The non-graduates were generally removed from the school before the middle of 12th grade and transferred to continuation school, so the entire 12th grade class graduated.

I feel things are tougher now for new “graduates”. We really were taught (by the school as well as by our families) how to survive in society. I don’t think that’s so true now.

High School Student: We need the input you give this blog. Stick around!

By jim d

January 5, 2007 02:34 PM | Link to this

KA,

He’s still a kid, why on earth confuse him with stuff that really don’t matter but could cause him to make bad choices? BTW, he wasn’t always in public school. He developed a sense of self worth long before being exposed to some of the public school attrocities. But that exposure was also a planned part of his education.

Oh and Thanks for the good parent comment, I’m sure his mom will appreciate it.

:-)

By KA

January 5, 2007 02:41 PM | Link to this

SET, LOL, I agree with you, the worst kids in my HS are now dead from drug abuse, in prison from bank robbing, and in dead end jobs. Their risky behaviors set them up for an unproductive life after HS.

By jim d

January 5, 2007 02:43 PM | Link to this

SET,

I guess it was just a different part of the country? And a wee bit earlier.

Most of us were out of college by 70.

I guess I might have been considered a thug in my day. Hey, I think I turned out ok, I’m sure a few bloggers might disagree though.

Gotta go meet the kid. Bye bye y’all play nice.

By OldSchool

January 5, 2007 03:16 PM | Link to this

In 1989 a young man returned for his sophomore year and told me he was going to be the best drafting student I ever taught. Because he had been pretty much a clown and never very serious about anything, I told him “Do it and THEN talk about it.” I gave it no more thought but went on with the school year, giving everyone my best.

By George! He became the best drafting student I ever had, has been employed in the field for years, is working fulltime and also working on his BS-Ed in Adult and Career Education, AND he wants my job! I’m hanging in there so he can graduate and I will give him the best recommendation ever.

To recognize the remarkable person he discovered within himself, I wrote his name on an oak leaf and it remains attached to my lab wall. Over the years others have turned over a “New Leaf” and their names join his on their respective leaves. It’s not something I share out loud but will explain their significance to any who ask. It is a simple commendation that is truly earned by a few.

Mind you, those who have a leaf really did find it in themselves to change and focus on their educations. Most still keep in tough and are doing well.

I can only offer what I know, what I know how to do well, and my loving support. It is up to the students to accept what I have to offer. Second chances are always available but trust and respect must be earned.

By catlady

January 5, 2007 03:17 PM | Link to this

I think “College” has leaked over from Jim Wooten’s blog, given his obvious skill and relish with name calling and very poor spelling/typing. I vote him off the island.

By HS Teacher Too

January 5, 2007 03:21 PM | Link to this

Oh, College. You are right; you can post what you want on any blog, particularly if comments are not policed by the blog moderator. I had just hoped for more constructive postings, and that is my own naive fault. But perhaps I can be constructive and help you with your grammar — which, by the way, should matter to you, regardless of whether you are posting on a blog or doing any other task.

Here is your post: Oh Highschool teacher too, you are so grammatically correct, and so smart, and by the way liberal I can say whatever I want on any blog, what the hell does the way I spell on a blog mean anyway? Obviously if you are a highschool techer please do not try and act smarter then me. And KA I was callint the writer an idiot, but after reading yours, you fit in thier too. Are you Japenese? Where do you get your facts, TV?

I have no idea why you call me a liberal, and let’s not get into a debate about who might be smarter than whom. You can draw whatever ignorant conclusions you wish about the fact that I used to teach high school. People like you make the world go ‘round and keep it entertaining.

However, because I do not have anything new to contribute to today’s discussion about the Japanese educational system in comparison to our own, this is all I shall post for today.

By agdawg

January 5, 2007 03:23 PM | Link to this

What’s wrong with college bound students taking Career, Technical and Agricultural courses? What better way to prepare for the world of work.Just ask some of these college graduates that can not find a job…..

By HS Teacher Too

January 5, 2007 03:25 PM | Link to this

All bloggers — my apologies for replying to “College” for the second time. The bait was just too amusing to me. I realize I wasted space, and I hope you’ll forgive me!

By OldSchool

January 5, 2007 03:25 PM | Link to this

Oops, before grammargirl bops me across the head with a dictionary, I really did mean to type “touch” as in “Most still keep in touch…” but my chubby fingers were not interested in the correct spelling. Sorry.

By luvs2teach

January 5, 2007 04:25 PM | Link to this

What I would like to see is more choice! We are not one-size-fits-all; nor are our kids. To have a one-size-fits-all expectation - you vill go to college; you vill succeed, and you vill LIKE it!! - is unrealistic and unproductive.

Why not a best of both worlds scenario? We can offer more testing at key grades, and offer counseling and choices at those junctures. No one is pigeon-joled - they instead make informed decisions.

In my dream scenario, school looks a little different: Primary school is roughly grades K - 3, approximately ages 5 to 8. The key focus is reading and math skills. Science and social studies are taught through reading and math activities. Intermediate school is grade 4 - 6. Here is where we focus on reading to learn, and where we catch up those who don’t read well. The ages are approximately 8 - 12. My 7th and 8th grade would be completely different - students would have basic reading, English, and math for 2 - 3 hours a day, and then spend the rest of the day rotating through various work experiences - office-type, work, cooking, medical, construction, etc - this could be done through a variety of classroom activities and experiences, guest speakers, field trips, and even internships - kids in cooking could work in the cafeteris for example. Students in Childcare could go read and help in a Kindergarten classroom. Students in a Veterinary experience could go clean cages at an animal shelter - the possibilities are endless. During 8th grade they take tests like those offered by a career placement office - scholastic aptitude, differential aptitude, personality, interest inventories, etc. Then, they and their parent meet with counselors, go over their results, and make some choices - I would like for kids to be able to choose among magnet schools for various disciplines, including a vocational tech HS. I would also like apprenticeships to be a choice for some. Because they would’ve had the “work” experience in 7th and 8th grade, they could make better choices.

Well, that’s my dream system…

By thomas

January 5, 2007 05:08 PM | Link to this

We have another interesting blog today.

Japan vs. American schools

Really there is no comparison. People always want to compare U.S. and Japanese schools, but there is no comparison. American society is totally different and so is its educational system.

Read SET’s insight message posted earlier. She(?) makes many of the same points I was going to bring up, so I will not need to repeat them.

We do not live in a homogenous society. If we began true, concrete, high standards testing, many of our students will fail. You see our schools were designed to have “successful” and “not-so-successful” students. We call it tracking. It seems our society likes to have successes and failures. Rich and poor. Have and have nots. People in charge and on top and workers and bottom dwellers.

The Japanese suffer through those cruelling education camps because they know if they achieve, there is a reward later. Unfortunately, in America there is no real reward for excellent academic achievement (i.e. a good job). We do not live in a merit based society. It is not what you know, it’s who you know. It took me years of life experience (teaching and on the streets) and study to even get an idea of why some groups of students achieve in school and do not. Most of us really don’t have a clue.

By NYgal

January 5, 2007 05:16 PM | Link to this

I attended high school in New York City. Every person in junior high had to take a test to enter the high school of their choice. My mother decided that I was going to be a nurse, so she made me take the test for a high school for the medical professions. I graduated, became a dental hygienist, then gave my mom and everybody else with an opinion my black a* to kiss as I went back to school and studied print journalism. Despite my experience I believe the tracking thing is okay; I received an excellent education from teachers who were free to teach students who wanted to be there and who were ready to learn. Even as a teen I knew my chosen school would be a far better experience than my neighborhood school, which was ethnically diverse, but filled with a lot of kids who would rather get high and hang at the beach than study. Yes, I have the skills to be a dental assistant or hygienist, which I only use now to harangue my daughter into flossing. But my high school environment made me believe that I could acheive anything and that hard work was expected. I left high school knowing that I hated the medical profession, but that I was smart and well-prepared for any college endeavor. And I did it without getting my a* kicked. (I’m sure I would have been a nice nerdy target at my zone school.)

By Joy in Teaching

January 5, 2007 05:44 PM | Link to this

The high school student posting here seems to be a “fake” one. Notice that he/she started posting at around noon? Shouldn’t he/she have been in class? Also, he/she mentioned that he/she took a college class a few years ago. I think we’ve been had.

By C.R.H.

January 5, 2007 05:44 PM | Link to this

HS student, you can be assured that EVERY teacher is on the same page with you in regards to more testing. The teachers are burned out on testing, I’m sure the students are even more burned out! As they say in Iowa…”You can’t make the pig fatter by weighing it everyday!”

By JustMe

January 5, 2007 05:50 PM | Link to this

High School Kid -

I am glad you are here and I value your opinions, but your last post was one big WHINE!

Getting into a good college has always been competitive. Do you really think that you are the only high school kids that had to work hard to get something that you wanted? Guess again!

Yes, there is competition. Yes, there is stress and pressure. Yes, that is part of life. As a high school kid, that is your job - learn the lessons of life as well as learn the lessons in school.

So you messed up at the age of 11? It sounds like you messed up more than just once, by your own admission. That is what the legal system calls a habitual offender - and you do not get excused for that!

Mess up once, learn the lesson, and don’t mess up again. Everyone can excuse it. Mess up repeatedly and then, too bad! There is always someone better/smarter that doesn’t “mess up” to take your place!

By KA

January 5, 2007 06:02 PM | Link to this

luvs, I luv your dream scenario! You are thinking outside of the box. Too bad the state educrats and admins can’t break outside of their boxes. you get a gold star : - )

By KA

January 5, 2007 06:10 PM | Link to this

Old School, I love your “turning over a new leaf.” Teaching is a give and take, live and learn, and you have clearly succeeded. Your students are blessed to have you!

By Jeff

January 5, 2007 06:20 PM | Link to this

Seems like this topic got of on the wrong foot….

As for the initial posting:

1) The overall premise is flawed, as stated by SET and thomas. Japan is EXTREMELY monocultural…. as we once were. When we WERE more monocultural, we had roughly the same level of discipline as they still do, yet our suicide rates were no where near as high as theirs remain even today. If you want truth in advertising here, you MUST stop supporting pluralism and let us go back to a true “melting pot” philosophy. (Note that in a melting pot, while there ARE several things that go in, only one comes out….)

2) I will flat out admit that not all kids are truly college material. HOWEVER, I ALWAYS go for the highest standards available. Since school is primarily an ACADEMIC institution, and college - particularly Masters’ and PhD levels - represents the highest level of ACADEMIC standards, to me it is IMPERATIVE that we push students in that direction. At the same time, we must have options available for those who can’t - or, as is more often the case, won’t - achieve those standards. THAT is where we can co-exist with VoTech. Once it is identified that a student has no interest and/ or skill to handle continued academic pursuits, we shunt them off into VoTech - where the standards are JUST as high, just in a different facet of life. I’m not one of the academics that says that VoTech is for the discipline problems and/ or “not so bright kids”. In fact, I’m one of the academics that knows for a FACT that when it comes to VoTech areas, I’m gonna pay to have it done because I have NO clue what I’m doing! (I’ll probably stand there and watch/ ask questions, because I AM an academic with a genuine thirst for new knowledge!)