Get Schooled

By V for Vendetta

January 4, 2007 08:21 AM | Link to this

Until “college prep” classes cease to be a dumping ground for the ignorant college “wannabes” and the HOPE scholarship goes the way of the dodo, the passenger pigeon, and Star Jones’s career, our high school students will NEVER be ready for college.

At my school CP stands for “My parents complained to much to put me in Tech”

And to think, some areas are getting rid of Tech classes all together. Oh my.

By Joy in teaching

January 4, 2007 08:42 AM | Link to this

V….I agree. College Preparatory classes are only those in name only. Back in the day when I taught high school, I had students in CP classes who read on a third or 4th grade level. Their parents didn’t want them placed in Tech classes with “the hoodlums” or “dummies,” so they were dumped in college prep classes where the curriculum had been watered down to the point that they could actually pass.

Lovely day. That’s why I moved down to middle school so I could attempt to make a difference. Now I’m thinking about a move to elementary school. It’s disheartening.

By KA

January 4, 2007 09:10 AM | Link to this

Bridget you present apples and oranges in your discussion question. The Apple: yes, curriculum alignment is needed and will serve those students who are capable, hard working students that are college material. The Orange: curriculum alignment has NOTHING to do with the reason students are not graduating. Students are failing and dropping out because Georgia’s PC policies allow social promotions, ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that the failing kids cannot read. If they read it’s at a cell phone text message level, or if they can read words it’s not anywhere near grade level. They have a minimal vocabulary and they don’t comprehend what they read. Intervention is needed NOW in the schools. Test all students for reading skills and comprehension every year on every grade level. If any students do not read on grade level, then put them in intensive reading skills classes until they can read on grade level and start learning. Reading is the lynch pin in the learning process. In summary; the apples can read and will benefit by curriculm alignment; the oranges can’t read and curriculum alignment makes no difference for them.

By jim d

January 4, 2007 09:15 AM | Link to this

V and JIT,

I fear you may be correct.

As a parent of a gifted child I’ve noticed the disparity in my childs work in CP and gifted classes. I suspect since he does better in the more challenging classes that the CP classes may well be a dumping ground to appease parents.

Unfortunately if this is the case it appears to be something done to the detriment of the students that are capable of not only being admited into college but are the ones that will complete a four year program. I find this disheartening at best. Perhaps this will cause us to explore further the eoruopean methods of secondary education.

By KA

January 4, 2007 09:40 AM | Link to this

College bound students should take the highest level classes, whether it’s honors, gifted, IB or AP. The CP track does not offer enough challenge to adequately prepare students for college.

By V for Vendetta

January 4, 2007 10:02 AM | Link to this

KA - I agree, but why call it CP? In my opinion, CP should stand for freaking CP! The work done at that level should be consistently difficult enough to get a kid into college. The schools, as you said, should get out of the PC game and into the creating college graduates game. If a parent is upset that her precious little Johnny failed two semester of CP whatever, well too damn bad!

We have to get back on track. The kids in CP should be capable of, and expected to do work that will get them into college. Honors should be for kids that are even more capable and intelligent, and need to discuss things further. Gifted/AP classes should be for kids able to do college work in high school, and should count as college credit (much as they do now).

Everyone is right, we HAVE dumed-down CP. The answer isn’t moving deserving kids up to avoid it though, it’s returning the classes to what they should be. COLLEGE prep.

By luvs2teach

January 4, 2007 10:11 AM | Link to this

We need to get rid of the idea that all kids should go to college! I have 8th graders who already tell me that they want to drop out and work as soon as they can - when I ask them what kind of skills they have, they are stumped - they never think of that! They just don’t want to be in school anymore because iot has no meaning or relevance to their lives or their future - at least as far as they can tell.

I am all for high expectations, and sending positive messages to kids about their educational futures - but, come on, we need to be realistic about their abilities and their desires. There are skilled labor jobs that pay well, and can never be sent overseas. The future of those workers’ children could be even brighter if this broke the cycle of poverty. And to those who would complain, “what 13 year old child knows what they want to do” - well, not many dream about what they later end up doing. But by giving them job skills that they can use to survive and thrive, at some later date (when maturity and motivation are better), perhaps they will be able to go back and go to college - many people do that now!

KA - I can’t agree enough with your comments about reading - it is KEY. And to piggyback on someone’s comment yesterday - the vocabulary of children from homes in poverty is significantly less than those from homes with college educated parents. They also rarely have reading material of any sort in the home. Reading and understanding how to decode unknown words are critical skills for college level text - we need to get these kids reading!

By zeke

January 4, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this

First, ban all teachers “unions” from K-12 schools! This will enhance the ability of school boards and superintendents to fire unproductive teachers, hire and put qualified teachers in front of the students! Second, seperate all students by ability! This will cause an immediate upward curve in learning on all levels! Third, do away with all politically correct policies and social promotions! Forth, bring back strict, fast and efficient rules of behavior and punishment! Fifth, reward, acknowledge and praise the successful students instead of worrying about hurting the feelings of those who cannot do the work, or, refuse to do the work! Lastly, do away with “extra credit” policies which inflate the grade scales artificially!

By KA

January 4, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

V, Yes! CP is a misnomer and should be renamed for what it is, a basic education. luvs, thanks, and yes nonreaders come from illiterate and poor readers’ homes. Time to break the cycle and teach all kids how to read. If they can read well, then the learning will follow. Sometimes the simplest solution is the best. Teach the kids to read, and read well.

By OldSchool

January 4, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this

I agree, V and others, that CP classes have been “dumbed down” over the years. Unfortunately, so have many of our CTAE classes.

When I first started teaching (1973), vocational teachers were charged with the responsibility of preparing students with job-entry level skills in various disciplines. Our courses were to be individualized so students could start at most any time and progress at their own rates. Back then we had a wonderful program called Industrial Arts that gave students a chance to explore Metals, Drafting, Graphic Arts, Woodworking, and the foundations of the industrial system. These students learned basic safety and equipment/tool use. They could make a very informed decision if they chose to enroll in our Trade & Industry courses. IA is virtually extinct and our T&I courses have become dumping grounds for those who can’t or won’t do and the few students who truly want to learn the skills we offer are often left to their own devises as we deal with those who prefer being a distraction or even danger to others.

Couple that with the continuing misconception that our students are not “college material” and the non-existent funding to keep our shops updated and you have our plight. We get to serve our schools as a credit-bearing alternative school and endure the slackjawed thugs who slouch around because they “don’t NEED this course to graduate.”

In this technological world, we need to demand college prep level work out of every student who comes through our doors; have the support of parents/guardians in this mission; provide alternative programs AWAY FROM OUR CAMPUS for those not at all interested in an education but distractingly interested in a social life; realize that many SpEd students would be better served in life management classes where they could learn the skills they really need for living a quality life; provide adequate funding for CTAE labs to keep them relatively up-to-date and competitive; realize that most teachers really can teach and LET THEM; and provide a forum where parents, teachers, students, and the community can share concerns and solutions without the interference or backlash of the “good ol’ boys.”

When educating our students becomes as important to us as fielding a state championship football team, maybe real change for the better can take place.

By jim d

January 4, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

Thanks Ka,

It may be a bit late since he’s a Jr.

We can only hope that his outstanding SAT scores, excellent grades, partcipation in extracurricular activities and his comunity service record will counter weight some of the cp courses he took.

By luvs2teach

January 4, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

Zeke, honey, you know that there are no teacher unions in Georgia, right? And since Georgia is a right to work state, and there is no tenure, teachers can (and do) get fired. We are on contract, which can be non-renewed, or a teacher can get fired mid-year if the situation warrants it. The PSC can take away your certificate (or you could fail to renew it). And, contrary to popular belief, teachers who do not meet expectations on their end of the year evaluation do not get a pay raise, even if they are on a step that qualifies them for one. I’m not saying the system is perfect (far from it), but it’s not like it was in the days of tenure and lifetime certificates (which no longer exist) - and it’s certainly not like states with strong teachers unions like those up north. I doubt Doc Nease would’ve been fired if this were New York or Massachusetts.

I do agree with your other points, though :-)

By jim d

January 4, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

Zeke,

Only place we tend to disagree is with banning teachers organizations and handing over totaltarian power to school supers. and Boards of ed. I’ve seen that in Gwinnett county and know the pressures it places on teachers to blindly follow any fool that has been entrusted with a position of authority or lose their jobs. It ain’t a pretty picture my friend.

I do believe that teachers should have a place at the table of management and that their voices should be heard and heeded. But then, thats just my humble opinon.

By jim d

January 4, 2007 10:44 AM | Link to this

Wow Luv,

My previous post was sent before I read your last one. Scary how much we think alike!

By luvs2teach

January 4, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

OldSchool - do you think you would see an improvement in your classes if a serious (and equally weighted and respected) vocational track came back? Where your classes would be for those qualified for(through tests like the old Differential Aptitude Test) and interested in gaining entry level skilled jobs (and not a dumping ground for those who can’t hack it in CP)?

I just have to believe if we gave these kids (and their parents) more viable choices, it would improve everything - CP classes could be truly CP. The Voc classes would have students interested in becoming a certified electrician or plumber or mechanic. Everyone feels that school is more relevant to their future!

I just think back to my family and our experience with our high school system up north - we had a vocational high school that served the 5 surrounding communities. You took the DAT in 8th grade and met with a counselor about your scores. You toured both the Tech and your home HS. And then you made a decision. I chose college prep - and took a long time and a very circuitous route to finish and find my career. My sister took the business track at our home high school, and until recently, made more than I did (she could go back to college, but has no interest in it - never did). My brother-in-law and my cousin’s husband went to the Tech - one majored in plumbing and the other electrical - they both, to this day, make more than the rest of us - including the college educated cousins!

Bring back choice!

By luvs2teach

January 4, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

Yikes - jim d - are you rubbing off on me?

By MBW

January 4, 2007 11:00 AM | Link to this

I propose that we eliminate the concept of “grades” in school. There should be no first grade, second grade, etc according to age.

Instead, at the beginning each year, all students should be grouped according to their current ability level in each subject. Students should stay in that level until they have mastered the content. So, theoretically, it would be possible for a student to be in a 1.0 math class, a 2.0 social studies, and a 3.5 Lang Arts.

The emphasis needs to be on content, not grades.

By Leia

January 4, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

Most of the students I come across are at one level higher than they really should be. The Technical kids should be in a Job Corp program, the CP kids should be Technical, and many of the Honors and Gifted students should be CP - if the curriculum actually matched the level.

It is scary that once a student is deemed “gifted” - they are considered gifted in every area until they graduate high school! Everyone is not honors or gifted in every area - that is absurd.

What is also absurd is the fact that many colleges offer remedial courses. My thinking is - if you aren’t prepared to take real college level courses, you shouldn’t be in college!

By Leia

January 4, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

MBW - I guess you wouldn’t mind having this 19 year old who reads on a 5th grade level (who I teach)sitting next to your 11 year old daughter in the classroom, huh?

By V for Vendetta

January 4, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

jim d, sounds like your kid will be fine. If every parent cared as much as you do (not just about his/her kid, but about education in general) then we wouldn’t be having half of these discussions!

Oh, and AMEN luvs, we need to throw out this ridiculous idea that all kids should go to college. That, combined with HOPE and the PC state of education, is everything wrong with GA in a nutshell.

By luvs2teach

January 4, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

MBW - I like your idea - I’ve mentioned that to people before. It floors me that we think kids are going to have the same academic readiness and skills just because they are 6, 7, or 8. A kindergartener who is six in September is very different than a kindergartner who finishes at five and doesn’t turn six until July. You see some multi-age classes in high school - why not when they are younger?

Leia - I agree about the “once identified, always gifted” label - particularly when some of these kids are identifes in K or 1st grade. Studeis are starting to show that kids with parents who read to them regularly and encourage the development of school-readiness skills often test as gifted when tested early, but level off later on - not truly gifted, just better prepared for the test.

By luvs2teach

January 4, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

Leia - good point with your 11:13 - I think we would need to have multi-age but same level grouping within our typical school age groupings (ES, MS, HS) to keep that from happening. Hopefully, though, the 19 year old would’ve got what he needed early on, and wouldn’t be reading at a 5th grade level…ah, dreams…

By SET

January 4, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this

Wouldn’t things settle down in the college track classes if it was made clear that the students who accepted enrollment in these classes would have to do college level readeing and writing assignments?

Just the sight of a serious book list will scare off most a-literates. (They can read but don’t want to).

And if the problem children don’t read betond 8th grade level how do they avoid flunking the class? Or doesn’t these “college prep” classes flunk anyone?

They sure did in the early ’70s. Wanna-bes couldn’t survive these classes then. Too bad things got “better”.

By Zoe

January 4, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

I teach in a high school that dumps kids into the college prep program. The reason? Because there is no way the students can earn a Career Tech diploma. The irony is that there is the impression that CT is easier than CP, but many of the students I teach do not have the reading level to be in CT. Our system is trying to set up a joint enrollment program with several technical institutes around the metro area. However, when students were screened about 95% were not eligible. This was because of grades, school attendance, the entrance test and other factors.

KA, I agree with your reading assessment and the fact that if a student can’t read, he or she isn’t going to pass or even be able to function in high school. As a high school teacher, I noticed that very often my biggest troublemakers could not read and were acting out to cover this up. They had become excellent copiers, but when asked to preform their own work, could not follow through.

Also, there is the attendance issue. How many of these low performing students are absent on a regular basis? In my county, we are required to allow students to make up work no matter the reason and students know this. This would be fine, however most students never do. Teachers provide all the opportunities, students take advantage of very few. In fact, we were forced to use the week after Thanksgiving as “Amnesty Week.” Teachers had to let students make up any work from the beginning of August until the beginning of September. Of course most students just figured the teachers would pass them anyway just kept their failing grades. However, what did this teach our students? We are so focused on pass at all costs, we are dumbing it down for everyone. How many employers will say “That’s OK, you can redo it.” or will they say “You know, I have 10 other people that want your job, you’re fired!”

If you want to talk about college readiness, do not blame the schools. We can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. We need help from the parents, but often the parents look at school as the babysitting service they do not need to pay for and then wonder why they are watching Johnny through the glass instead of watching him walk across the stage at the age of 18.

I give my all to the students that want it, I am not going to chase after the kids that don’t. Too often we overlook the kids that are working hard because “everyone can achieve” and we are trying to bring in the kid that doesn’t want our help and is only there because if he isn’t, Mama doesn’t get the SSI check. You do know that kids that diagonosed with specific disablities get their parents SSI and parents coach the kids in this, right? This is not just for physical and mental disablities. Children with emotional problems can get SSI too. They just need to say the right thing during the SPED testing. Now that welfare is limited to two years, a new avenue of free money had to be found. Then, these kids are so trained to have a disability, it is a self feeding problem.

By V for Vendetta

January 4, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

SET,

They avoid failing the class because no one is allowed to fail them. Even if you do, a parent can get it changed half the time if they stomp and yell loud enough. That’s what we’re dealing with here.

It comes from the same people who are of the mentality that we should stop giving kids zeros… even if they do nothing! Hmmmm, giving kids credit for doing nothing at all? I cant think of a WORSE lesson to teach a student!

By Lisa B.

January 4, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

I thought failing the CRCT in 3rd, 5th and 8th grades was supposed to cause those students to be retained. Are any schools retaining the kids who fail? I’ve read several posts that many of your schools, like mine, held summer school, and the kids who failed then miraculously passed. I see no end to social promotion. Even the kids who failed the CRCT after the summer school retest ended up placed in the next grade after the parents met with administrators and had fits.

By meme

January 4, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

Lisa B. Loopholes. That is how students who fail the CRCT (even the 2nd time) get moved up into the next grade. I am amazed at the number of 6th graders that I teach that did not pass the test even after summer school.

By Susan

January 4, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

A big problem in schools is that politicians and others that aren’t involved with students, make the decisions. Example: saying ALL students (except those in special ed) must take Algebra in 8th grade in Gwinnett. While that looks good on paper, there are lots of kids that are not cognitively ready in 8th grade for Algebra.

We need to get kids that don’t want to go to college on a technical track with courses offered in a vocation no later than 10th grade - 9th grade would be even better! As it is, they have to wait until 11th grade, and by then, they’ve dropped out.

By Taxpayer

January 4, 2007 12:39 PM | Link to this

I agree with L2T: college is not right for all kids. I see far too many coming through my classrooms who would be much better off at technical/trade schools or in a business/professional training program. Where did we get this idea that every kid must attend college? Some parents seem to think that they are failures themselves if their kids don’t attend college somewhere, but the kids I have known who are in college because their parents wanted them to be usually drop out or flunk out. Instead of college prep, will it ever be possible for us to adopt the mindset that LIFE prep is a better idea? I wish that alternatives to college were discussed and encouraged by parents and school counselors.

By Kay

January 4, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

My kids do not attend public schools. I wanted them taught the proper materials and college ready. Since I do believe in the church and God, wanted him a part of their school lives also. My kids are doing great thank you.

Oh and by the way, my daughter wears clothes that covers her body and my sons wears pants that actually fit. What more could a parent want? Any more questions?

By V for Vendetta

January 4, 2007 01:03 PM | Link to this

Lisa B,

Haha, the CRCT! That test (laugh) is taken very (chuckle) seriously. It is very hard (snicker) for a kid who failed to pass to get to (giggle) the ninth grade.

Ok, all kidding aside, the CRCT is crap.

By jim d

January 4, 2007 01:30 PM | Link to this

Actually I contend the whole testing craze is a scam being perpetrated upon the public by Johns-politicians and whore-testing companies.

We are being asked, no told, to place our faith in a single test result. Or at the least two test results should a child fail the first time. Now— we’re talking about a test that is held as a secret and that no one is allowed to review here folks, not one that could be challenged.

I contend that children failing the first one are a statistic. Testing companies know that they can design a test that a given percentage of students will fail (test questions thrown in for this purpose) and design their original test around those statistics. They also have statistical documentation that from their bank of questions there are questions that statistically and historically have been answered correctly more often than not. Those questions are then used in the retest—guaranteeing a higher passing percentage. And that my friends is why testing materials are kept from the public.

I challenge anyone to disprove my theory.

By SET

January 4, 2007 01:52 PM | Link to this

V for Vendetta:

Happy New Year…

I keep forgetting my own pronouncements that the state operated nuthouses are not “schools” and can’t be expected to teach or fail anybody the way they did in the ’60s.

It just seems so obviously counterproductive.. Until you bash your head against the wall and keep repeating “it’s not really a school” . I don’t understand how people could ever want to go to work in such an Alice-In-Wonderland environment. It would have to damage your soul.

Especially if you know things could be better. Or if you’ve attended a real school yourself.

I just hung up the phone with a another lawyer - I’ve been reviewing a case where defendant is 40 with a series of cases of full intercourse with girls as young as 4 (he gave that one VD) to 8 years old. He has an IQ charted as low as 64. The first 3 cases he was deemed too incompetent to stand trial and was sent to board and care homes, then to state hospitals (when it kept happening whenever he was sent home). The 4th time he actually was sent to state prison - which promptly transferred him to state hospital again (he has other mental disorders - he’s basically insane and doesn’t stabilize well on meds either, his “wife” was around each time too). I’m dealing with a legal fight over his placement.

What takes me back to my point is that each of the 4 victims were relatives and in each case the child’s birth mother/guardian/auntie (or whoever fixed the meals at that place) allowed the little kids to stay under the same roof as defendant. Nobody ever arrested or prosecuted the adult in charge of any of the victim kids - during any of the 4 incidents over 22 + years.

I can only read this to mean that the authorities don’t expect these people to protect their little kids from such obvious danger. And this is not an isolated thing. I often see cases where mentally retarded, mentally ill, and (self medicating?) drug involved males are being used as babysitters - then they wind up with criminal sex cases. No one in authority ever charges the “responsible” adults in those cases either - they just (try to) send one defendant to prison and close the file. I get to deal with the mess sometimes. Non-Asian minorities are highly overrepresented in retarded populations.

It’s not just the schools where someone has unplugged the responsible machine.

I’m still concerned that the common theme is that it’s the minority community that gets the standards tossed out the window and it’s the majority community that refuses to enforce or maintain any standards unless it’s white kids getting hurt in the process.

Just let a little white virgin get hurt and watch the satellite trucks line up and the mother/parents get put under a microscope.

Is what we as a society are doing to the kids in the public schools just an extension of what society is doing in the streets? Using the law of the jungle to operate the town, then blaming the minority kids and their teachers (who were never allowed to really “teach”) because the kids didn’t learn to read?

In your job you see lives wasted. In mine I see dead and battered people. Overrepresented groups in both cases. There is a reason why this didn’t used to happen. We once enforced standards against everyone.

As a reference: Here’s the latest stats for Los Angeles Unified School District where they claim in 2004-2005 that they still have 9% white students hiding somewhere: http://data1.cde.ca.gov/dataquest/distenr2.asp?cChoice=DistEnrEth&cSelect=1964733—LOS%5EANGELES%5EUNIFIED&cLevel=District&Level=District&cTopic=Enrollment&cYear=2004-05&myTimeFrame=S

By lynn d

January 4, 2007 01:53 PM | Link to this

The problem is the HOPE. The HOPE has given too many students and their parents the idea that college is a right. However, the HOPE requires absolutely no rigor or proof that a student is ready for college.

The HOPE serves as a real disincentive to students to take the hardest courses, to teachers to grade hard and to schools to offer real rigor in their course selections.

By catlady

January 4, 2007 01:58 PM | Link to this

zeke—Incompetent administrators cannot adequately make a judgement on incompetent teachers, and I think the former outnumber the latter!

By jim d

January 4, 2007 02:05 PM | Link to this

Cat,

I’m confident of it!

By Stacey

January 4, 2007 02:18 PM | Link to this

Back when I was in school (20 yrs ago), we took “mastery tests” before moving from elementary school to middle. Based on the test results, we were grouped (within the same grade) with kids of the same “level”. Kids needing remedial help in one or two areas (i.e., reading and math)took those classes in a “Learning Center” environment where they could recieve individual attention and other subjects with their ability group. We had two levels of Special Ed, one for the severely disabled and one for “slow kids”.

In high school, we had our core classes that everyone had to take such as English, American History, Literature) and others we took based on goals and abilities. We had a general education curriculum which offered basic math, general science, etc and college prep which required chemistry, physics, calculus, etc. By 10th grade, we pretty much “knew” if we were going to college, trade school, military or the workforce and took classes accordingly.

Vo/Tech offered things such as auto mechanics, agriculture, secretarial and industrial sewing. The Vo/Tech students took the general ed core classes during 1st & 2nd period and spent the remainder of the school day in their chosen area. A lot of them graduated and had jobs waiting for them and are doing well now.

Yeah, we had dropouts then but it was not nearly the problem that it is now.

By catlady

January 4, 2007 02:49 PM | Link to this

You are right about the lack of rigor of college prep,and its dumping ground status. Doing away with the general track guaranteed that.

My own children, who only had a few AP courses available at our school, were AMAZED at how unprepared they were in terms of workload and rigor. Although they had worked, jumping through hoops, they had not had to really STUDY. Now, mind you, they were taking the hardest courses offered at their high school, and they are NOT genius material.

jim d is oh-so right about the CRCT and its manipulation. How else to explain that I can work with a child for 180 days for over 2 hours a day, they fail the CRCT, and one of two things happens. They don’t go to summer school and go on to the next grade, or they do go to summer school and miraculously after 20 days of instruction they “pass” the CRCT. and these are kids who cannot read! And they go on to the next grade, where the pattern is repeated.

I just wish we’d quit lying about it.

By catlady

January 4, 2007 02:54 PM | Link to this

Stacy, there was also value seen in working for something, as opposed to being entitled to it. That is a large part of societal problems, in my opinion. While someone should not be foreclosed from something because of race, gender, etc, the idea that they are entitled to it really serves to devalue the things we have said are valuable.

By HS Teacher Too

January 4, 2007 03:13 PM | Link to this

Oh gosh, I debated not posting on this topic, because it tends to get me all riled up. College Prep is distinctly a misnomer, as many posters have already said. I taught in Gwinnett, and when I tried to hold kids accountable (remember I taught HS math), parents were up in arms!! If a test question didn’t exactly mirror a homework question, I was being unfair. I was actually forced to have parent conferences because of this! (Bear in mind that on any given test, there might be only one or two questions like this.) It blows my mind; when I grew up that was called showing the teacher that you could apply what you’d learned, and it was a valuable tool for the teacher to see who really soared. And in class we’d spend time “attacking” such questions, for kids to learn problem-solving skills. “I know I have the tools to do this, but how exactly do I go about it?” That’s the greatest thing to learn. This is one simple example, but I hope it conveys the essence of my point. Rigor is gone, and I argue that it’s a result of the fact that any administrative support for teachers who attempt to maintain rigor is gone.

Gwinnett prides itself on how many kids earn the HOPE, but they downplay how many kids lose it after a semester, and how many kids end up in remedial classes as freshman. The college prep math classes, at least in Gwinnett, try to do too much too quickly, and have too many kids in them that are NOT truly college prep material. The result is that, to avoid having kids failing in droves, the curriculum is diluted beyond recognition and college prep is really just regurgitation. We don’t teach our kids to think! There is NOTHING WRONG with needing more time to understand concepts — and I am not talking about kids whose rudimentary skills are super weak and so we play the blame game with whether they learned it in middle school or elementary school. I’m simply talking about kids for whom abstract concepts inherent in algebra take a little more time than the day or two they are allotted, or the kids who need to see and play with concrete geometry models instead of just trying to envision them on paper. And now I hear with greater certainty that Gwinnett is moving to eliminating the Tech level altogether?! So, every single child in Gwinnett County will take four years of math, culminating in trig functions, matrix operations, solving trig equations, graphing in three variables … oh, and lest I forget, even on the CP level, an introduction to derivatives and basic calculus. Tell me, please, that the kid who can’t correctly make my change at Burger King is going to be successful with that, and explain to me how — because that’s a gold mine I want in on. And then, can you tell me WHY it’s necessary? Seriously?

I fear that sometimes I use this forum for complaining rather than suggesting ways to make changes, but after my time in GCPS the one thing I know for certain is that they don’t WANT change. They do not support the teachers who TRY to change; try to hold kids accountable; try to not make the average class grade a B+. (Technically speaking, Gwinnett doesn’t use the +/- system, so I am referring to grades such as 87, 88, 89.)

But I don’t want to turn this post into a bashing of Gwinnett. It wears me out.

Old School, I agree with you that we need to demand college prep level work out of our kids, and I agree with you on the value of vocational and trade programs. But I disagree on one point, because I don’t think that EVERY kid needs to be in college prep; rather I think that every kid IN college prep needs to be held accountable for that level of work. I put great value on the trades and don’t think of it as a lesser tier, as much as an alternative tier, especially if the kids who choose that route are still taking fundamental classes such as algebra, geometry, etc. (But I don’t think they need, necessarily, four years of math, as much as they need a solid foundation in the basics. There are many teachers who would say I am a heretic for this belief, but if you’re going into construction, you’d benefit more from a rock-solid geometry class or series of classes than you would from matrix operations and solving trig identities.)

There are plenty of bad teachers out there, I will be the first to say. But in my mind, the bottom line is that our kids aren’t ready for college because the good teachers aren’t supported adequately or allowed to maintain any level of rigor in their classes.

I know I was weary of the whole game, and I left. Jimd often asks teachers why they put up with what they put up with. I didn’t Jim — when I realized I was butting my head into a wall, I left. But I’m lucky — I am in the position to be able to put my money where my mouth is, and a tremendous amount of teachers can’t do that very easily. (Mind you, I didn’t “quit;” I am still involved in education and I plan to be for the long haul. I just got out of the system I was in.)

By Corey

January 4, 2007 03:29 PM | Link to this

Produce better parents, and I will bet my bottom dollar educational systems and the general welfare of the nation will improve everywhere and in all demographics. Enough said. It is a crime that sorry parents do not understand the consequences of their sorry behaviors.

By Stacey

January 4, 2007 04:29 PM | Link to this

HS Teacher Too…We need more of them like you. Our math questions (past the “times tables”) were always meant to show that we knew the concept and could apply that knowledge. We had to solve trig and calculus equations by hand. The thought of a calculator was an automatic “F”. I’ll admit that I can’t even read a trig question much less solve it now, but I could through HS & college. Technology has served to dumb us down but that’s another topic.

catlady…It was clear to almost everyone that my nephew was “a little slow” since before he could even talk (he was probably 4 or 5 before I could understand 1/2 of what he said). Not meaning to be mean at all, Forrest Gump comes to mind. Autism was in the news a lot then and a lot of people thought he was autistic.

He went elementary and middle school in “a large East Metro school district” and to my sister’s delight, “excelled” in the regular classroom. She feels it’s besides the point that he got A’s on homework (mom did it) and F’s on his tests. By the time he started high school, they had moved away from the metro area and thus, to a new school district. In that county, he tested 5 grade levels behind! Fortunately, at that time they still had “slow classes” and he was able to thrive at the level where he “mentally” needed to be.

By SET

January 4, 2007 05:02 PM | Link to this

Corey: I don’t think the nation is going to produce better parents in our lifetime. Worse parents, more likely.

During WWII The men were gone and the mothers went to the war factories working shifts around the clock. Even in those times society readily managed to put children through daycare and nightcare, & K-12 school.

Our public schools can get children, (even the underclass children) better educated/trained than “this” by a long shot. We (Society) just need to give a damn and to be willing to use the force it takes. We have done it before, we can do it again.

We don’t have to fix the parents first. We can fix the kids directly. The process would be rough by today’s standards but it can be done.

First thing is to let the teachers teach and that means letting them triage students to different campuses and punish students for failures - up to and including writing sentences, quiet time, failing grades, corporal punishment and transfering delinquents out to reform schools. All the old methods that work.

If nothing else the kids would be better prepared to hold a job.

By jim d

January 4, 2007 05:17 PM | Link to this

HS too,

I find it unfortunate that you had to leave the system for things to improve for you. We really need more like you willing to stay. However, I’m probably more aware of what goes on inside the system in Gwinnett than most parents and even a lot of the teachers.

I can’t blame you for leaving but continue to hope that things will change with a changing of the guard that inevitably will occur, and that teachers that have bailed out will consider returning.

By James

January 4, 2007 06:44 PM | Link to this

I agree that making sure all children can read is one of the essential, first steps to prepping kids for college. I know too many students at my small, liberal arts college who have problems reading that were not caught by their elementary or secondary school. They always just “got by” or did a lot of extra credit to get their grades. This did not help them at all once they got to college. Now they struggle with undiagnosed reading disorders or just a plain inability to read on an appropriate level.

And I know first hand, as a student that CP classes are not preparing students for college. The one “CP” class I had (the rest were all honors or AP) was Spanish I, because my school only had CP for that course. The students were not interested in learning or making a good grade. All they cared about was socializing and bothering the teacher. I didn’t learn nearly as much in that class as I did in my Honors Spanish classes the next two years. Something has to be done to bring CP back to the level where it actually prepares students for college. And getting rid of Tech classes is certainly not the answer, although I’ve heard several districts are moving in that direction.

Finally (and this really has nothing to do with College Prep), I agree with Jim D. that the teachers (in Gwinnett, particularly) are expected to blindly follow the superintendent. Since Gwinnett does not elect the super. there is no oversight whatsoever. Gwinnett parents have no course of action to take when they are frustrated with his decisions. I believe I read in the AJC that a member of the Gwinnett delegation to the State legislature was proposing that all schools supers. had to be elected positions. If this is really the case, I would support the bill 100%.

By cardinal

January 8, 2007 05:37 PM | Link to this

I do believe that it is important to offer HS students the choice of attending some sort of paraprofessional 2-year institution, or prepare them for a technical degree option. But reading these blogs I get the feeling that some individuals feel that only those who have taken CP/AP classes should have the privilege of attending a 4-year institution. Not all schools offer challenging CP/AP classes- and HS GPA or achievement tests scores are not necessarily accurate predictors/ indicators of college success. I did not have the opportunity to take CP/AP classes in HS and I was encouraged by my school counselors to go to a tech school. I had average grades, with average ACT scores. I did great in tech school, but I did not feel challenged. Instead I attended a community college and completed a 2+2 transfer module to a 4 year college program. I graduated from Community College with a 3.8. Now I am a graduating senior, with a 3.6 GPA. I attend a private liberal arts college that is currently ranked 7th out of 107 comprehensive colleges in the Midwest by US News and World Report�s 2007 Guide to America�s Best Colleges. This is not an easy school and it is known for its quality curriculum and instruction � so in other words there is no slaking and you better know your stuff! So�.some students do not perform above average in HS�� this should not automatically disqualify them from the opportunity of attending college