Get Schooled

By luvs2teach

December 1, 2006 08:29 AM | Link to this

Yes, the boy was 11, but he was also 200lbs!!! That’s bigger than many men, and most women, including the officer and the 85lb (!!!) GIRL he was beating up.

He was repeatedly told to stop, and the officer felt it necessary to resort to tasering him.

Do I think it’s terrible? Yes, it’s terrible that an adult had to resort to that because a “child” (in age, perhaps, but not size) was so out of control and hurting another.

I hate the thought of that happening in my school, but I hate the thought more of my child being the one pummelled. I would be pressing charges on the attacker and thanking the campus officer.

By Elaine

December 1, 2006 08:32 AM | Link to this

That is a very hard question. Having worked in public secondary schools for 10 years, I have been in situations (not a whole lot, but some) where I felt as though a child were out of control, that someone was in danger. Any steps we take at that point are going to be drastic and could end poorly, but you can’t just stand there and do nothing.

I have used physical restraint (to the best of my 5’4” ability) to stop altercations. I have also on only one occasion, held a child so tightly that I thought I was inflicting pain(the vulcan pinch on the neck/shoulder muscle we were taught in self-defense). But both were out of a strong feeling that multiple children would be seriously hurt if one or two weren’t stopped.

In the moment, in your mind, you’re scared to death for the kids…all of them…you don’t want anybody injured, so you have to do something. But at the same time, there’s a voice saying “I’m totally going to be sued over this.” Honestly, you hear the same voice when you press the panic button and wait helplessly for someone else to come. (What if something happens before they get here? I’m the only adult around right now…)

So I totally see why people are thinking about tasers. They’re quick and they’re supposedly safe. Even in the best of schools, you get a large group of hormone-charged adolescents together for extended periods of time, throw in the he-said, she-said, and somebody’s going to throw a punch, or start pulling hair, or something. It’s not okay, but it has been happening for a long time. It’s when you start adding substance abuse and other factors that it can get scary.

Our resource officer had a gun. As unpleasant as both options are, I’d choose a taser in a school building over a gun.

By luvs2teach

December 1, 2006 08:32 AM | Link to this

I didn’t answer the question, “Is it appropriate?”

I don’t know - it’s scary to me to think that it was necessary, that nothing else worked in this case.

Is it appropriate to have students capable of that level of violence in our schools?

I wish it weren’t.

By jim d

December 1, 2006 08:40 AM | Link to this

I don’t know. I defer judgement to the resource officer, these guy’s are trained in law enforcement with many of them coming from our local police departments.The use of force is always a judgement call and one I’m confident is not generally taken lightly. The officer made the call and one must assume he weighed the risks to the stunee against risks to the other student in question and himself should he not use force.

I’m with the cop on this one, regardless of the age of the child.

By Elaine

December 1, 2006 08:50 AM | Link to this

Jim D,

Your comment is so refreshing. It’s so common-sense, so nice for someone to give a professional (the officer) the benefit of the doubt…to trust his training and his intentions. I think we have a big problem today with people always assuming the worst…especially when it comes to the people who work with their children.

Thank you.

By KA

December 1, 2006 08:52 AM | Link to this

As the boy was over 200 lbs., on top of the little girl, attacking her, and refusing to stop, it sounds like this was an appropriate response, unless there were a couple of club bouncers available.

By jim d

December 1, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this

Elaine,

You’re welcome.

In this particular case I don’t see any evidence of excessive force. The cop was doing what he was trained to do and didn’t go overboard in my opinon.

Now had he continued to stun the kid after he initally subdued him, I’d have a serious problem.

By luvs2teach

December 1, 2006 09:11 AM | Link to this

BTW - the resource officer was a 145 lb WOMAN.

By dizzy

December 1, 2006 09:18 AM | Link to this

This morning I read about a middle school student who got beat down to get out of a gang. These are violent kids who can and will hurt anybody. This 200 lb monster was beating this girl, disregarding authorities. To protect her and others, this was correct and the least forceful thing for this officer to do. If this girl was your daughter, I am sure you would want it done also. Kids like this don’t belong in a school with others.

By lmm

December 1, 2006 09:20 AM | Link to this

I agree with jim d and elaine.

I have a 12 year old in 6th grade. I would like to think that if she were being attacked by someone and an adult were around that she would defended by whatever level of action required to stop it.

And the reverse would also be the true. However, instead of blaming the person who broke up the attack or questioning the “appropriateness” of their actions, my daughter would be in a world of hurt by me.

By jim d

December 1, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this

L@T,

My Bad—please replace he with she in my previous posts. ;-)

By jim d

December 1, 2006 09:25 AM | Link to this

Dizz,

“Kids like this don’t belong in a school with others.”

Yeah they do—others just like themself.

By lmm

December 1, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

Too many people are ready to scrutinize the actions and motives of the person who stopped the attack. Why don’t we instead look at the child and by extension his parents? Why did this child think it was appropriate to attack the girl? Where are the parents of this child?

By jim d

December 1, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

I’m giving odds this morning that this is one 11 year old that learned something this week and won’t be a repeat offender.

ANY TAKERS?

By lmm

December 1, 2006 09:38 AM | Link to this

@jim d: Hopefully he has learned his lesson. I also hope his parents are “reinforcing” the lesson as we speak!

I know if I ever got in trouble in school, whatever was dealt out there was always doubly reinforced when I got home: once by my mom when I got home and again when my dad got home!

By dan T

December 1, 2006 09:48 AM | Link to this

I am waiting for the lawsuit. That would be the American Way. The lawsuit will be result in the next time a resource officer wants to use his taser to break up a fight like the one discribed he/she will have to fill out a form prior to using the taser. lol . He or she will have to send that form in to be approved and then when it is approved they will be able to use the taser to stop the fight. lol.

By Joe

December 1, 2006 09:49 AM | Link to this

Had the officer not responded and the little girl was serioulsy hurt, then what? It’s unfortunate that our kids today are committing grown up crimes, but it’s a sad and true fact that its happening. When I was a kid we had fights but they were without weapons, just the fist. Kids today have guns and a bullet coming the gun of a ten year old can kill you just as fast and just as dead as a bullet from a thirty year old.

By jim d

December 1, 2006 09:50 AM | Link to this

lmm,

Oh yeah,

Whenever I screwed up I got it at school twice because my mom would take me back to school so everyone could see me get it again.

You talk about a deterrent!

By jim d

December 1, 2006 09:52 AM | Link to this

lmm,

Ever been tasered?

Playing around with one I discovered, It really, really hurts!

By john

December 1, 2006 09:57 AM | Link to this

im with the cop on this one, use whatever force necessary!! kids are evil these days and part of that is because parents are scared to be parents.. so resource officer use of judgement that is fine. you have to keep schools safe no matter what. the more stricter the less bad behavior.

By Jim in Marietta

December 1, 2006 09:59 AM | Link to this

Another reason why we homeschool. Let’s see… no windows, no recess, taser gun toting employees, inmates…Er, I mean students beating each other up in the hallways. What’s that you say? Oh, how silly of me. Those are the socialization skills that my kids are missing out on. Public schools and the NEA, what a pathetic story.

By SET

December 1, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

Interesting comments… A little too optimistic for my tastes. I am more pragmatic.

Understand that the “resource officers” as well as the teachers are moralaly and legally obligated to protect and defend “innocent” students against violent attacks. That means you are not free to walk away “to go for help” when you see a 200lb creature attacking a little girl.

When necessary, just like the parents you are in place of, you have an obligation to fight unto the death the attacker in order to save the child.

It’s the same if the attacker is a pit bull, a sex criminal, a deranged parent who wandered onto campus, or a psychopatic 200lb 11 year old that administration keeps around just to make things interesting for teachers and staff.

The Taser was a mercy. I know people - civillians - and some of them young women, who can quite easily kill and maim with their bare hands. They have been trained for years at the local dojo to do so and when in combat the training takes over. Some of these people have been going since pre-school. You would never know this to look at them.

Some people are just not good victims.

If the level of force the 200lbs 11 year old was using on a little girl was likely to produce great bodily injury (which is not really a high standard at all) any passer-by would have been justified in using deadly force to stop his attack. There is no obligation to talk to him first.

So if you are wringing your hands over a Taser Gun you have no place being responsible for the safety of large groups of children in an urban school setting. You haven’t had the training on use of force and the law - including your obligations to protect. Of course, this is what we have peace officers for. And their very expensive training and retirement.

But it doesn’t matter is the janitor arrived and broke the male’s neck to stop a dangerous attack. These things happen when you put out of control people in residence with little kids. Which is why decent school administration won’t do that.

And another thing. When 200lb 11 year olds go berserk like this in public, they may be killed also in many circumstances. So let their parents buy the life insurance while it’s cheap.

The Taser was a mercy. Nice for the thug the Taser was available so more deadly means weren’t used first. In a good school this creature would not have been there.

Brave New World.

By Lola

December 1, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this

Doesn’t Brian Nichols weigh 220 lbs?

I weigh 110 lbs. If a 200 lb person—adult/child/whatever—was attacking me, I would want whatever means necessary to get this person off me.

It’s not the school’s fault he’s a kid; it’s not their fault that he weighs more than some grown men; it’s not their fault he clearly has disciplinary issues. But it is the school’s fault if they allow him to physically abuse and perhaps serious injure another child or adult.

I say do what you have to do — taser, pepper spray, handcuffs to subdue him.

By Bubba

December 1, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

I believe that the officer was absolutely correct and the situation worked out perfectly - the child was subdued by a much smaller person with minimal injury to the child. Much better than using a baton. I work in several schools and believe me when a kid is being violent, no matter how big, they are difficult to subdue even for a grown 180 pound man such as myself. Even trying to control a 6 year old who is biting, clawing, spitting and kicking is not easy … an angry 200 lb boy is not going to be subdued by one person without the kid or the teacher getting seriously hurt. We are taught to intervene with a partner, but sometimes you are the only one there when a child is being assaulted and you can’t wait.

By Bubba

December 1, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this

I believe that the officer was absolutely correct and the situation worked out perfectly - the child was subdued by a much smaller person with minimal injury to the child. Much better than using a baton. I work in several schools and believe me when a kid is being violent, no matter how big, they are difficult to subdue even for a grown 180 pound man such as myself. Even trying to control a 6 year old who is biting, clawing, spitting and kicking is not easy … an angry 200 lb boy is not going to be subdued by one person without the kid or the teacher getting seriously hurt. We are taught to intervene with a partner, but sometimes you are the only one there when a child is being assaulted and you can’t wait.

By Bubba

December 1, 2006 10:10 AM | Link to this

it sounds as if the officer was absolutely correct - I work in schools and subduing even a 6 year old who is kicking, biting, clawing, and spitting is not easy. the taser seems to have worked perfectly to subdue an angry violent 200 lb boy.

By the real EW

December 1, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this

This incident is just a peek into what really happens in some schools. I think the use of the Taser was and is appropriate, God help me if this was my daughter.

SET has some good comments, however in my county I’m only obligated to say Stop Fighting, Stop Fighting, or trying to redirect the behavior. I don’t have to physically break up anything. I push my emergency button, and wait for the SRO. Last year, I broke up a fight that was so bad, I cried literally afterwards, I had never seen anything like it - it was two girls. They fought like wild animals, I thought about that could have been my daughters, as one girl just went up to the other and punched her so hard, her glasses flew off and blood came from her nose… I don’t know where the strength came from, but I rammed her so hard against that locker, I know I hurt her, and I whispered some very choice words in her ear, to get her to realize in her rage, that it was me – not her. This student had issues, but we had a good rapport, she calmed down and went to JAIL, she was expelled. This was middle school in the SUBURB’S.

I’m six months pregnant, and now I’m not going to risk it -

By E.

December 1, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

This would all have been a non-issue if the thug weren’t beating a little girl. Nor do I doubt that this was the first time this hoodlum engaged in socially unacceptable behavior. I wouldn’t be surprised if this thug’s last contact with law enforcement is a lethal encounter. Then again, his own kind may end his life in a fit of uncontrolled rage.

By jim d

December 1, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

Let’s talk about this kids history. Oh yeah we can’t because it’s kept in closed files.

Just a guess on my part but I’d say this wasn’t the first time this kid was in trouble. More of your tax supported NCLB at work my friends.

By the real EW

December 1, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this

Speaking of NCLB — does this incident label them as a “dangerous school”?

By Dan

December 1, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this

wow I am shocked, this is one of the most one sided blogs I have seen here and rightly so. Nice to see common sense on an issue.

By MMM

December 1, 2006 10:25 AM | Link to this

The officer’s actions were appropriate to all the facts presented in the story.

So sad it was necessary, but there really isn’t any way someone living in the real world would have much grounds for debate in this case.

By Miss Ann

December 1, 2006 10:25 AM | Link to this

I am a middle grades teacher and trust me when I say that I have seen my share of student fights and I have had to break up a few. Based on the violence of the fights I have witnessed and broken up, the taser used on the Jonesboro student was the correct approach. Now let’s sit back and wait for the lawsuit.

By Frank123

December 1, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

Agree with luvs2teach. It is appropriate to taser kids especially if they are physically attacking another student. I even agree wtih the taser being used on the UCLA Arab student who would not show his ID at the library. Everyone was asked to show ID or leave the library.

All this emphasis and rewards (attention) that are going to people that disobey the police is causing more problems, more injuries, more costs, more tax dollars, and more lawsuits. Kids like adults have to obey the police and if not the police can use force. If they have problems with it they can complain or file a lawsuit later, but don’t resist the police.

By Etacude

December 1, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

I’m all for discipline in school, but I am 100% against the use of a taser on a child.

I think an age limit for the use of a taser on a child, should be put in place. It should NOT be used inside of a school at all.

I find it hard to believe that several adult in a room, could not stop this 200lb child from assaulting a little girl.

Help Wanted: An educated 6 foot 5 Man or Woman who can put the fear of death in our children. Need not apply if you need a gun or taser.

By meme

December 1, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this

It may sound one sided because what else was she to do? As someone earlier said, even a small child is hard to handle when they are kicking and screaming. I am going to guess too that the parents will file a law suit. Of course like I tell my kids when they say that their parents are going to sue someone, “You can sue all you want but that doesn’t mean you are going to win.”

By jim d

December 1, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

Let’s talk a bit about responsibility for this kids actions because some of it belongs to us.

Since I’m pretty confident this wasn’t a single incident, how much responsibility belongs to the school and the administrators that enabled this kids action? How much of it is ours?

This kid had been in schools for at least 6 years. Why was he there? Well the truth is that he was there so a school wouldn’t have to report incidents that may have placed them on the persistently dangerous schools list.

Schools have historically been one of the safest places our kids could be. This is no longer true because of the lying and manipulation of numbers to satisfy NCLB.

How long are we parents going to tolerate such foolishness? How many kids must die before we take our schools back from mindless politicians and spineless school administrators? NCLB reauthorization isn’t due for a couple of years, Can we afford to wait that long?

By lmm

December 1, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this

@jim d: No, I’ve never been Tasered - though I would never put myself in a situation where I would need to be either! But, I can imagine it would be pretty painful.

I’m also sure that if my kid ever needed a Taser used on her the pain from that would be like a walk in the park compared to what she would have to deal with once I got my hands her!

By lmm

December 1, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this

@Etacude: so the officer was supposed to wait until other adults showed up? (remember she is only 145lbs) he was beating the h3ll out of the girl. what if they didn’t show up in time? let him kill her?

By ron

December 1, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this

By dawgdan

December 1, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

In that situation, taser the kid. Taser his parents, too, while you’re at it. I mean, have you seen kids these days? They are ANIMALS. I’m only 26 years old, and we weren’t barbarians like this when I was in school.

By lmm

December 1, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

@jim d: I think most of the responsibilty for our children’s behavior, actions, etc. is on our heads as parents. We are responsible to teach our kids how to act appropriately and what is right and wrong in any setting. Any time my daughter acted up in daycare and/or school, I also punished her when she got home. Kids learn from us, first and foremost!

By lmm

December 1, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

I don’t know why there is a question of who’s responsibility it is to displine and train our kids in what is right and wrong. It isn’t the school’s or teacher’s responsibility to teach appropriate behaviors - they should only have to enforce what has already been learned in the home. The school’s and teacher’s responsibilities are to educate in reading, writing and ‘rithmetic, etc.

By lmm

December 1, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this

It will be a sad state of affairs if the parents come back in this case and try to sue the school and/or the resource officer. It will be even sadder if the court doesn’t throw it out as ridiculous. And even more sad if they win.

By jim d

December 1, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this

No question about that lmm,

My point was that we (voting adults) shoulder partial responsibility for every childs actions because we refuse to elect politians willing to give us back control of our schools.

NCLB at best needs a total overhaul and in my opinon really just needs to be trashed. Of course the alternative would be to take control back of our schools by ridding them of school administartors that condone violence so they don’t look bad.

Either one would work for me!

By Michael M

December 1, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

I think the officer was right. Anyone that is against this use of force will change their minds when its their child taking the beating.

By Lisa B.

December 1, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

Lets put it this way; if the officer HADN’T tasered the kid, the victim’s parents would sue. As it is, the officer may be sued by the thug’s parents. Protect the victims. We’re going to lose either way, but at least the victim can be saved.

By decatuparent

December 1, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

Well, it seems that most are in agreement on this one. I’ll add my take anyway on the fear of lawsuits.

I’ll put it this way. I have a 70ish lb. 10 year old. If she is attacked and injured/maimed/killed in middle school one day by some psychotic thug, and school personnel did not do whatever it takes to get him off of her….. the lawsuits would never stop coming!

Anyone who is afraid of a lawsuit for restraining a thug needs to also think of the potential lawsuit from the victim. The amount that could be recovered from the pain/suffering from a taser is miniscule compared to the judgement that could be recovered for a child vitim who was maimed/killed when school personnel refused to adequately protect her. That lawsuit would be even more successful if “Little Johnny 200 Lb.” had a history of “underreported” violent incidents.

Boy, I need to get off the caffeine!

By lmm

December 1, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

absolutely, jim d, i’m with you there. though, i think it more basically starts with the parents not abdicating their responsibility to the school. parents, NOT the school, have to teach kids appropriate behaviors and discipline them when they don’t act appropriately. the school should only reenforce by whatever means necessary and report back to the parents.

kids need to learn there are consequences, good and/or bad, to every action and behavior. this is learned first at home and then reenforced by the school.

we are placing a lot of responsibility in the hands of the schools that we shouldn’t and are turning around and blaming them when they don’t live up to our expectations.

By decaturparent

December 1, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this

Hey jim d - If you are fed up with the effects of NCLB - check out this website and sign the petition to urge politicians to can it in ‘08.

http://www.educatorroundtable.org/

By Ralph

December 1, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this

As a police officer with 15 years exp, If someone resists or is fighting, I taser first then ask questions. Using the taser beats having to put your hands on people and fight with them, which looks bad no matter what. Using the taser prevented me from fighting many times, and no one got hurt which is the important thing. The taser is great.

By lmm

December 1, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this

If we were doing our job as parents and not expecting the schools to do it for us, NCLB would not be needed.

By lmm

December 1, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

thanks, decaturparent, for the link.

By anonymous

December 1, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this

The officer was 100% corect in his approach. That beast could have killed the girl if the cop hadn’t used his taser for its intended purpose. In my opinion, the problem is rap music and its glorification of the thug life. It preaches crime and violence and kids listen and obey. If we can put a stop to that, we can put a stop to the majority of the violence.

By Elaine

December 1, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

To Jim in Marietta at 9:59.

I see your point. I am not a homeschooling advocate (but I am glad we are in a country where folks are free to choose it). School violence is at the top of my list of reasons why we might not send our kids to public school. We live in an area where that doesn’t seem to be a major issue now, but I know it is some places.

On the flip side, however, this doesn’t happen in every school every day. In 10 years’ experience in a “typical” suburban school, I have dealt with maybe 5 altercations. The school administration handled them all well and children were punished appropriately. Contrary to what some believe, there isn’t mass chaos and complete nonsense running all public schools today.

SET’s remarks at 10;00, while brash, bring up some ideas you should think about. Kids get in fights. It happens. It’s part of the messiness of growing up. As adults, we don’t allow it; we don’t condone it; we reprimand and punish and stop it…but it’s happened. It’s going to happen on your block, at your neighborhood pool, in your church youth group, maybe even in your home between your own kids… In all their growing up years, chances are your kids are going to see somebody get mad and use physical force irresponsibly. How far will you go to isolate them from human life? Is one major student altercation a semester (not an out-of-line average for a suburban school) a good reason to keep your kids in a bubble? When will you let them out? College? Now that’s really scary…

I have many, many friends who homeschool. As much as they insist that I’m crazy for working in public schools and that I’ll be scarring my kids for sending them there, I have concerns about their choices, too. Many of their assumptions about what goes on in public school are based on outrageous news stories (such as this one) that are far from the every day, and fear mongering among other media sources. A lot of what they believe about the public schools and are basing their homeschooling decision upon just isn’t true. And they’re not thinking through how their kids are going to function outside the home (and the other well-controlled environments they circulate in).

It’s definitely possible—albiet difficult—to raise and homeschool well-adjusted, socially savvy, self-confident people. Please, please, for your kids’ sake, be careful. Be deliberate. Think it all the way through and get all the facts. Don’t be afraid of the world out there. Ours is not a spirit of fear…

By jim d

December 1, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

TY Decaturparent—I’m now proudly #11034

By Teacher Teacher

December 1, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

Taser these unethical, brutal administrators!

By Rob Smith

December 1, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

Where was the story about the GCPS blog site and Alvingate in todays AJC, I was looking for it?

I hope the story devotes enough time to the issues raised on the blog such as the overspending in PeopleSoft Implementation, and why the former CFO Jeff Weiler and the former Director of Internal Audit were fired and escorted off GCPS Property by School Police Officers, versus focusing on the blog creators motives. In addition that sufficient research goes into the story?

I am looking forward to reading a good piece of unbiased investigative journalism….

Thank you,

By frank123

December 1, 2006 12:17 PM | Link to this

Etacude,
It is easy to say no taser when you label the kid a “child”. However, some of these kids are huge (tall and/or wide) today. Some are very strong and aggressive. What is the alternative? Have 1-3 security people try to pull the “child” off this other student. People would be screaming brutality if multiple officers had to take this “child” down. If the officer did nothing, the school would be sued by the other student who was attacked for failing to supervise. The schools, teachers, and officers are in a no when situation. Nothing they do is right and people want money when they don’t do things perfectly.

By jim d

December 1, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

Teacher Teacher,

Starting in Gwinnett would require several recharges.

By Teacher Teacher

December 1, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

jim d….

LOL!

If they started tasering the oh-so-deserving administrators in DeKalb, they’d knock out the electrical grid!

By Yvette

December 1, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

Hmmmm,a 200lb 11 year old pounding on an 85lb 11 year old. I think the taser was appropriate. The officer was a 5’0 ft FEMALE. This child was tasered once and went after the girl again and had to be tasered a second time. His “parents” should have taken care of him again when he got home.

By Drew

December 1, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this

Zap ‘em good, I say. As of right now, I can guarantee 100% that this kid will be in and out of a jail cell for the rest of his life. Maybe this early intervention will change the kid’s attitude.

By Teacher Teacher

December 1, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

jim d….

LOL!

If they started tasering the oh-so-deserving administrators in DeKalb, they’d knock out the electrical grid!

By April

December 1, 2006 12:58 PM | Link to this

I think that kids these days aren’t getting the attention or DISCIPLINE they need, Hell a taser should be used more.. then when the kids get to high school and drop out, they won’t have the urge to buy a gun and use it in a drive by. Clayton County has gone to the dumps anyway… Way to ghetto

By decaturparent

December 1, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

lmm - you have it right about nclb!

I have an idea. Let’s revise NCLB to make it apply to parents instead of schools. If the kid doesn’t make “adequate yearly progress,” the parents are labeled “in need of improvement” and the kids have the option of transferring to better parents. If the parents can’t control their kids’ violence, the parents are deemed “persistently dangerous parents,” and the kids can go find parents who will bother to raise them. After 5 years on the “needs improvement” or “persistently dangerous” list - the parent(s)’ reproductive organs would be taken over by the state or subject to “major restructuring.”

That and a little attention to the roots of the problem of poverty, and we might start getting somewhere!

By Jim in Marietta

December 1, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

To Elaine at 11:48 a.m.

I agree with you Elaine. Outrageous happenings in public schools like the one we are discussing today don’t happen every day, just every other day. Pull up yahoo news on any given day and read the latest piece by a local news paper about a public school somewhere in this country where something unsavory has happened. On the other hand you have to tune in to the Dr. Phil show to get his uneducated dose of drivel concerning homeshoolers. (Gee, I wonder who some of his sponsors are?) You are also correct that my kids have and will see true life violence and maybe even be subjected to it themselves, but you mistake my choice to homeschool my kids as “isolating them from human life.” I have talked to dozens of homeschooled kids of all ages over the years since my three kids are various ages and have participated in many youth groups, sports, and organizations outside of the home, if you can imagine that. Regardless of age it seems the homeschoolers I’ve met can carry on conversations with adults on a variety of subjects. In other words their social skills far outweigh the jaded “Just leave me alone.” or “Are you actually talking to me?” attitude of many public schoolers that I have encountered.

My oldest is now in college. When he was 18 he had an opportunity to visit one of the GA state colleges for a weekend of partying. When he returned the one comment that he made that stuck in my mind was that he would never allow his daughter to attend the college he had visited because of its “meat market” atmospher…This from an 18 year old. My 16 year old will be starting college classes next year at Chattahoochee Tech. No, he is not “gifted.” He will just be finished with his high school requirements. You see he doesn’t have to put up with the down time and superfluous nonsense associated with public schools. He works at his own pace, gets done what needs to be done and moves on. If he doesn’t understand something, we run it to ground. He doesn’t move along just for the sake of completing a lesson. He’s also taking a college level writing class outside the home this year.

You’re right it is difficult to raise and homeschool well-adjusted, socially savvy, self-confident people, but if you’re intimating that the public school system is doing a superior job in any of these areas you are sadly mistaken. My wife and I did think homeschooling through and neither one of has a single regret to look back on. Our kids are well adjusted, self motivated people that can actually think for themselves, and they are making their way through this mean old world ours just fine.

By Lynette

December 1, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

Bridget let me ask you this. What if it was your daughter that was being attacked? How appropriate would those measures have been to you then? My own daughter is in the 6th grade, and I fear for her each day. I hope someone is there to help her should she ever be in such a terrible situation.

These are not just security guards, they are Police officers who are highly trained. They do not use the taser for kicks and giggles.

By lmm

December 1, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

@decaturparent: your plan for applying nclb to parents made me laugh but you are absolutely correct. it is the parents who are failing the children not the schools. schools have tried to fill the gap that the parents leave in their unwillingness to teach, train and discipline their kids in how to behave.

it is unbelievable how many people are having kids that don’t realize the seriousness of their responsibility to those kids and the sacrifices they are going to have to make to raise self-sufficient and contributing members of society.

By John in Jonesboro

December 1, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this

The SRO was correct in the actions taken. However we as citizens must take some responsibility due to the fact we took PRAYER and the Administrations ability to discipline in school. (Remember paddling). Thanks to the worthless ACLU and other organizations. I blame the Main Steam media for the forcing of Political Correctness. I blame violent television I blame the THUG GANGSTA RAP. It’s now a cool for student to portray this horrible image. If your child is walking around with his pants around his knees you can bet you’re in for a long rough road with your child. WAKE UP and see what is happing right before your eyes. I blame PARENTS most of all for the lack of being the PARENT. Children do not need their parents to be their best friend they need a PARENT to be the PARENT. GOOD JOB and CUDOS to the SRO

By Jeff

December 1, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this

Guys, I’m a fairly BIG boy (220+, 6’+… don’t want to get too specific, otherwise people that don’t already know me will!)

I have found it difficult to subdue some 6th graders, and while one was near my weight, one MAY have been a third of it. Even using the moves that I was once trained in, locking them in and keeping them locked in only works if you have another adult there for defense (both of you and the student you are restraining)… IF you can get the move locked in in the first place. As has been said, a kicking, biting, spitting, squirming kid can be a MESS to restrain, PARTICULARLY when trying to look out for your own safety, the vicitm’s safety, AND the perpetrator’s….

I say the thug is lucky guns aren’t allowed in school, even by the cops. I would have supported the use of DEADLY force in the situation, had the cop deemed it necessary. (Not that I would trust MYSELF to make that call, but I would certainly trust a much more thoroughly trained, POST certified cop.)

By Blind Homer

December 1, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this

Q You know what they call a homeschooled kid sheltered from modern realities all his life when he encounters a really violent situation as an adult? A DEAD!

By SNY

December 1, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this

Just because the boy is 200 lbs doesn’t mean that his brain is not a child’s brain. It doesn’t matter how big the boy is, he is still an 11 year old CHILD. What he did was wrong, but we don’t know for sure that this wasn’t his first offense. We also don’t know what this supposedly precious little 85 lb girl was saying to him to provoke him. It is possible that this girl was picking on him and purposely provoked him and made him this angry on purpose.

Don’t think that just because she is 85 lbs and a girl that she is innocent. Not one of you have even questioned her role in all of this. This boy did not just jump on her for no reason. As the story stated, they had a verbal argument earlier. She is not completely innocent in all of this.

This child may just need someone to listen to him. For all we know, he could be the kids that gets bullied all of the time and finally had his fill. Don’t act as if that doesn’t happen.

I’m just asking all of you to think that could be the situation here.

By john

December 1, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

TO SYN IT doesnt matter what the girl did if she did anything at all a MALE NEVER TOUCHES a FEMALE LIKE THAT PERIOD and that PARENTING idiot

By lmm

December 1, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this

@SNY: you make a valid point. Though, there are many ways of dealing with those who provoke us, attacking, verbally (as in the case of Michael Richards) or physically (as in this case), someone is NEVER EVER right. As we’ve been saying throughout this blog - if she was provoking him or bullying him, then her parents failed her.

By Jim in Marietta

December 1, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this

Imm

I blame the parents who have the ways and means to keep their kids at home and nurture them and teach them something worth while for making the poor decision to drop their kids off at day care when they are babies. From the time they are infants, many kids are dropped off at the day care center and then immediately following that stint, they are placed in public school. If day care centers and/or public schools were such wonderful places, the “problem kids” like the one we are talking about today wouldn’t be problem kids. All kids would turn out to be disciplined well socialized, productive members of society. After all, let’s be realistic here day care and public schools are where the kids are being raised for 8, 10, 12 hours a day, not at home by their parents.

By luvs2teach

December 1, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

SNY - I’ll tell you what the little girl did to provoke him - she wanted money for the food he STOLE from her at lunch.

She was the innocent victim here.

Again, I’ll say it, if she were my child, I would be thanking the officer and pressing charges on the little thug.

Child or not, how many times have we heard instances of “children” committing heinous crimes - even murder?

By lmm

December 1, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this

Jim in Marietta

I happen to be one of those parents who dropped her kid off in day care and now in public schools. Though, my excuse is that I am a single parent and need to work to provide a roof over our heads.

However, I don’t think you can lump all of us daycare/public school parents in one group like you can’t lump all the homeschool parents together either.

I have a kid who is respectful, kind and well-adjusted in spite of being in daycare and public schools. She is well liked by her peers, by her teachers and by other adults who have the privilege of being around her. The difference in my case is that I am and have always been of the mind set that she is MY kid and MY responsibility for disciplining.

I once was complemented by a daycare teacher for making my daughter stay in timeout while determining the cause for which she was put in timeout, discussing it with her and making her apologize not only to the teacher but the other kid that was affected by her behavior. She said she never in her career in daycare saw a parent take care of an discipline issue while there at the daycare - in fact, she said, she would see the parents walk out with their kids as if nothing ever happened or there were those who got on the teacher’s case for daring to discipline their little hellion.

Not every one who puts their kids in daycare and/or public schools are mindless sheep and/or idiots. Sometimes that is the best they can do with what they have.

By SNY

December 1, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

John,

I know that you didn’t just call me and idiot, did you?! I’m not saying that the boy is justified no matter what the little girl did. I’m just saying that none of you gave him the benefit of the doubt and that struck me as odd.

Bullying in school happens all of the time and for no one to ask that question was curious to me.

Plus, I’m not a believer that males shouldn’t hit females. If a woman hits you first then it is on. If she can dish it, then she can take it. That is in general terms, not this situation. I understand that this girl didn’t hit first.

Also, let’s remember that his brain is only 11 years old, it is his body that is 35-36 years old. He can not be expected to know or understand how much damage his huge frame can cause that little girl.

By Jim in Marietta

December 1, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this

Imm I agree, and I am talking about the parents that have the ways and means to keep their kids at home. There are too many people who believe their need to go to work outweighs their obligation to raise their child.

By jim d

December 1, 2006 03:08 PM | Link to this

SNY,

kinda hard to give him the benefit of a doubt when he was 2 1/2 times her size, was on top of her beating the living hell out of her and refused to stop when ordered to. Wouldn’t you say?

By John

December 1, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this

SNY If you truly believe the statement and I QUOTE YOU “I’m not a believer that males shouldn’t hit females. If a woman hits you first then it is on. If she can dish it, then she can take it” YES I think your an IDIOT the only justification a male has to hit a female is in a LIFE THREATING SELF DEFENSE situation. SO if your daughter and my son are dating and she slaps him its ok for him to beat the crap out of her? YES your an IDIOT

By John

December 1, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this

SNY I blame your parents for your believe system see this is what happens from bad parenting.

By jim d

December 1, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

Jim in marietta,

Get a life. Some of with means grew up without them and want our kids to learn how to survive as well. Thats tuff to do when they have a silver spoon stuck up their ——-, Well you get the picture.

Kid’s don’t need sheltering to become productive caring adults. But hey, go ahead and raise yours any way you wish, just don’t condemn others for doing it some other way.

By JustMe

December 1, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

As a teacher in today’s public school, I have seen students completely out of control.

I say yes. Let the authorities use tazers or ANYTHING to control students. Most parents have failed in their job to teach their child right and wrong and to teach them to respect authority figures. What is left? All that is left is to use force to control their out-of-control brats.

Otherwise, the students will rule and they will physicall hurt each other as well as the teachers and others.

By paul02085

December 1, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

I say zap the lil suckers. Lots of them are half animal anyway and all they will understand is an a.. whipping.

By Jim in Marietta

December 1, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this

jim d,

I didn’t realize that sending my kid to day care as an infant and then on to public school was a prereqisit for survival. Silly me paying for shooting and karate lessons. I’m not talking about sheltering kids. They do need nurturing, and you won’t get the level needed from a day care worker or your favorite ps teacher. Also, I’m talking about people who go to work when they don’t need to. Mommy dresses up to go to her $30K a year job, and after spending x dollars on transportation, clothing, food, day care, etc. grosses $5K a year. She’s not working because she needs to. She’s working so she doesn’t have to raise her kids. She would rather let somebody else do it, so you reap what you sew.

By lmm

December 1, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this

Homeschooled or public schooled, it all boils down to how involved the parents are in their kids lives and in the school they attend. I went to a public school and I’d like to think that I came out all right. My parents made sure I behaved but they also protected me when I was the one being picked on. I was a military brat. I moved a lot growing up so I went to many different schools. I was an outsider to many of the local kids who lived in the community to which we moved and as such I was one of those that got picked on. I didn’t turn around and beat someone up because they called me names or provoked me. There were a couple of times I was the one being chased or knocked down and I will tell you my parents marched right up to that school and made sure that the school and the other kid’s parents knew what happened. The kid’s parents then took care of the issue and it wasn’t a problem again! But, when I acted up and my parents found out, they dealt with me swiftly and with a belt to the behind.

By luvs2teach

December 1, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this

The details were in the story, BTW. Some of you need to read it. The officer was also found to have acted in an apprpriate manner in this case.

I work in a middle school, and while I care deeply for my kids, some of you out there would be shocked at the things they say and do and know. Whle they are “children” in many ways, they are capable of adult behaviors - without the adult thought processes.

Yes, he has a brain still developing - obviously it’s short-circuited somewhere - maybe this will fix it.

By lmm

December 1, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

John,

You are right that the kids in d/c and p/s don’t the level of nurturing from the teachers as they would at home. They, however, aren’t in d/c or p/s 24 hours a day. There is still time in the day to make a difference and to nurture. If parents are doing the right things during the time they DO have the kids as well as dealing with the issues that arise when they aren’t, parents can make a big difference. I know, in my case, my daughter is the person she is because I take the time to talk with her, to find out what her problems are and to help her work through them peacefully, to talk with her teachers via email and conferences, to spend what time I have helping her with homework and spending fun time with her. As a result, I think she is going to turn out well because she knows I take the time to care about her.

By SNY

December 1, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this

John,

Watch yourself, you have no idea what my mother taught me. If you really must know, she actually agrees with you. She doesn’t think that a man should hit a woman for ANY reason. She taught me that growing up, I changed MY mind once I got older. Don’t get me wrong, everyone should keep their hands to themselves. I just think that if a woman is brave enough to hit a man, she should suffer the consequences.

And yes, if our children are dating and she hits him, he better hit her back, once and tell her not to do it again. Trust me, she would be so surprised that she got hit back that she really wouldn’t do it again. I’m not saying that he should pounce on her and put her in the hospital, I’m just saying to give her what she gave him and see if she likes it. But a better scenario would be for EVERYONE to keep their hands to themselves.

By lmm

December 1, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this

@SNY - I totally agree.

By lmm

December 1, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this

OOPS! I just realized I directed my 3:52 response to John. I meant to direct it to Jim in Marietta.

By decaturparent

December 1, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

SNY -

Question, just for reference for me, are you male or female?

Also, I think much of the logic behind men not hitting women is that men are typcially much larger and could easily hurt a woman. Given that, what if a kid hits an adult, in your opinion, is the adult justified in hitting the kid back?

I’m not trying to make a point, I’m just trying to work out the logic in your position for my own purposes.

By John

December 1, 2006 04:23 PM | Link to this

SNY I’ll pray for you. I have been in a relationship like that(many many years ago) she slapped me once I slapped back. WHAT A MISTAKE now the real evil starts. You cant hit a female and not expect some kind of retaliation beyond the physical. Now your into restraining orders, false arrest and harrassments its NOT worth it. I have no problem with him stopping her from hitting him but he should never hit her. EVER.

By SNY

December 1, 2006 04:23 PM | Link to this

Decatur,

I am a married, black woman with 2 children. 9 year old daughter and 3 year old son. And yes, if a child hits an adult, they should get popped back. Not slapped or beat, just a little pop on the hand or the rear to enforce that fact that it is wrong to hit an adult.

By Peridot

December 1, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

I have to agree that the Resource Officer did what he needed to do to protect another student. A 200 lb 11-year-old? That’s a big kid.

I have a 300,000 volt tazer that I use for rogue dogs when I’m out walking — believe me — that thing will take you down!!!

By MrLiberty

December 1, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this

Is this the kind of “socialization” you are afraid your kids will miss out on if you homeschool them?

Maybe Columbine is the type of socialization that is the better model for government school success?

Can you really be so afraid of what others might say, or your own feelings of guilt or otherwise to say that your child ACTUALLY BELONGS in this type of environment?

Stop coming up with excuses, stop believing the lies, and stop thinking that it will harm you child and homeschool them. Don’t they deserve better??

By SNY

December 1, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this

John,

When you hit her back, did you beat her up or did you slap her like she slapped you? If you only slapped her like she slapped you then she deserved it. Maybe next time, she will think before she puts her hands on someone. I’m really sorry that you had to go through that. IMHO, it was wrong for you to get into trouble for defending yourself. People need to learn that men do have to protect themselves from women all the time.

I’m leaving for the day. Going to spend some quality time with the kids over the weekend. Have a good weekend everyone.

By BD

December 1, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

For the first time ever, I had to have a child removed from my class this week by an administrator because of the way she was acting…as much as we may hate it, today’s children are getting worse and worse, and the steps necessary to keep a safe environment are becoming more and more harsh.

Anyone who thinks that the use of a Taser or other forceful measure to gain control of an out-of-control kid has probably never worked in a school or been around the kinds of kid who just got tasered.

By John

December 1, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

SNY A one time slap back.

By lmm

December 1, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

@MrLiberty: of course they deserve better. doesn’t it make sense to kick out the politicians and administrators who don’t let us have a say in how the schools are run? doesn’t make sense for parents to take charge of their own kids and make them behave so there aren’t these issues any more? some of us don’t have the luxury of homeschooling and have to do what we can with the resources we do have.

By Stacey

December 1, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

Sadly, I think tasering is a justified means of controlling some children in some situations.

SNY, your questions did cross my mind because I understand (believe) that the meekest of us can snap under certain conditions. The fact that the child weighs over 200 lbs at 11 would have gotten him teased brutally when I was in school. Still, the child was clearly out of control and needed to be stopped by any means necessary.

By SET

December 1, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this

Now we have a good dialogue going.. Love it when that happens.

In my earlier post I did not consider that the teaching staff on site may be frail, elderly, or pregnant. No, I don’t expect a pregnant teacher to get into combat to save a child being attacked by a pit bull or some other interloper. It’s too bad for a child in that circumstance that she is being taught by an impaired teacher who isn’t capable to physically dealing with this kind of trouble - but hey, that’s life. Yes there are unusual conditions where the kids are on their own and the staff will have to abandon them to attackers while they wait for help.

And I should have said that most of the physical fighting I’m aware of in schools involve mutual combat where a duty to “save” somebody at the risk of your own health is slim to none. Maybe we should have firehoses handy. In general employees should never endanger their own health for the benefit of an employer. It only makes the employer more calloused to the employees and full of entitlement.

If the school were well run, these incidents would be punished so severly (paddling, expulsion or such) that they would not be a common occurrance.

A point that has to be made, the public schools are the lowest common denominator of society. Their students can come from the scum of the earth - criminals, mental patients, prostitutes, welfare parasites, etc. When you run a public school system you can’t expect the parents to do anything. It’s nice if they do, but many kids have birth mothers and sperm donors, not “parents”. So you have to run the school accordingly. This includes contingency plans for the occasional homicidal or suicidal “parent”.

Disturbed and deranged children should not be placed on a campus with normal and expecially small children. This is why we have “alternative” schools. To get the damaged goods away from normal kids.

Another point. City Police do not take any orders from school district personnel. When they come onto campus they always carry guns and they will kill people given the right circumstances. Too Bad, So Sad.

The school district emasculates (disarms) their own police for political and tactical reasons that can be quite reasonable. They (the district) sign the paychecks and they are entitled to set the working conditions.

Still it must have been a hoot when the female officer Tasered the punk. The other students must have laughed about it for weeks. Good for her.

For a day in the Our public middle schools have very formidible (aging football player type males) grounds staff to control the movement of kids during the school day. I was glad to see them the last time I visited. They look like they can really protect the kids and staff from attackers (and each other).

By lmm

December 1, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

@MrLiberty: also don’t forget that there are some people who aren’t made out to be teachers and so homeschooling isn’t for them. just because you have kids doesn’t mean you are the best teacher for reading, writing and ‘rithmetic. you have to have discipline, patience and the temperament to homeschool. i know many homeschooling parents that aren’t suited for it. it doesn’t make them bad parents!!

By holdingAJCaccountable

December 1, 2006 05:44 PM | Link to this

I’m assuming when the question is asked “Should he have been tasered?” that is in contrast to “Should he have been just shot outright?” Of course he should have been. And if his parents even think of suing, they should be put on TV so that the public at large can scorn them while they explain why they shouldn’t have their rights as parents permanently revoked. In fact if they are ANY kind of parents at all, they should make Junior write a thank you note to the resource officer who tasered him for teaching him a valuable lesson and for preventing further injury to the girl.

By Political Mongrel

December 1, 2006 05:47 PM | Link to this

It’s better to taser a kid than to have to shoot a kid or beat the kid senseless with a billy club because he refused to stop attacking someone. Don’t ever think that because a kid’s only 11 that he can’t do a ton of damage to someone else, or even kill someone.

The taser is a possible danger, but how about the danger to the kid who was getting the beating? The attacker put himself in the spot of having to be restrained and/or subdued.

By Bridget Gutierrez

December 1, 2006 05:48 PM | Link to this

Thanks to everyone for participating in the blog this week. See you Monday!