Get Schooled

By KA

November 20, 2006 08:09 AM | Link to this

When my kids were in middle school we went together to individual conferences to hear what the teacher had to say and to discuss problems and solutions together. I would NOT have discussed my children’s problems in front of other parents! This parent should complain to the principal and get this changed.

By AFather

November 20, 2006 08:17 AM | Link to this

LOL, Group Dynamics. It’s like the teachers are ganging up on you. I’ve been through that when my daughter was in middle school. If you met with them individually, you’d get a different story, but as a group they’ve all got it planned on how to railroad your child. It’s a total waste of time.

By TheOne

November 20, 2006 08:30 AM | Link to this

When my daughter was in middle school (she just started high school this year) there were no “group P/T conferences”. Now granted, she was/is in the TAG program (talented & gifted), but even for students that were not, there was no such thing. The only group meetings would be something like “8th grade night” or “TAG night”, but that was not the time for discussing individual student issues. For that, all that was needed was a request to meet with a teacher and that teacher would schedule a time with the parent. I agree with KA, I would complain to the principal/administrators because there is NO way I would discuss my childs issues in the presence of other parents, it’s not fair to the child!!

By Tony

November 20, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this

What was described does not qualify as a parent-teacher conference. As a school principal, I expect teachers to meet with parents regularly to discusses the childs progress. This can only be done with the parents of one child at the time - not with a group.

It can be productive to hold group information sessions, but these should not be billed as parent-teacher conferences. Please notify the principal of this school through a phone call or letter to share your concerns about the parent-teacher conference session. Be specific.

By MMM

November 20, 2006 09:43 AM | Link to this

Lazy or Defensive denial is the only thing I can even imagine would result in someone trying to pass the kind of non-discussion this parent was subjected to as a parent/teacher conference.

I think she should contact and try to schedule private discussions with the four teachers, and if she gets ANY resistance or is told that it is a logistical problem to get with all four teachers at once—she should take her specific concerns about her child to the Principal.

Usually I would say that issues and feedback should be parent-teacher discussed and resolved before the principal is pulled in. But the format is calculated to chill discussion, so if a private “team discussion” is not possible, than the little stuff about her particular child becomes the responsibility of the next point up the chain of command.

If the principal, when she gives him all her specific questions and concerns, expresses irritation that he is being asked questions he can’t answer and must get with the teachers and get back to her—-she should just cheerfully say that she is sorry he needs to be the go-between, but she hopes he will be accorded enough respect to be given an opportunity to ask and be given specific private answers, because the conference method currently in use did not allow her that opportunity.

By Martha

November 20, 2006 09:59 AM | Link to this

Why don’t you contact the team leader and schedule an appointment with the team members and yourself? I’ve taught middle school for 15+ years and have never known a parent conference like the one you referenced. I’ve also been a middle school parent and have never participated in a “group” parent meeting where individual students were discussed. I’d like to hear the school’s side of this.

By the real EW

November 20, 2006 10:10 AM | Link to this

Ok, maybe I’m missing something here, but the parent stated that no individual attention was given to her child, so I’m assuming (don’t bite my head off) that no confidential information was shared in front of others.

This meeting sounds more to me like a team of teachers updating parents on the progress of the team as a whole, not a meeting to sit down and conference for individual students. I think there might be a communication issue with the teachers and this parent as maybe the purpose of this meeting was not properly conveyed.

Parents must take the initiative to make appointments (and keep them). It is easier to have a team conference with an appointment, because usually the team has planning time together, so you can discuss if the student is successful in one area but needs attention in others, I don’t believe as ‘AFather’ suggested that this method is used to gang up on the parent and student. It can be very productive to get all teachers together to discuss the student’s progress. The attitude you bring into the conference has a tremendous effect on the overall tone of the conference, parents and teachers should be there to work together through the good and bad. Sometimes it is hard for parents to accept the bad, and they find excuse, after excuse.

As a parent and teacher, just come in with a positive attitude ready to discuss what can be done to help your child improve and be the best they can be.

By The Parent

November 20, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this

Martha,

I am the parent and you can research the school if you don’t believe me, I will provide you with additional information - but I will not tell you the name of the school. I think the teachers are great and very nice people. So this is not a complaint about any of them, because it was held throughout the school.

I will give you this much…. It was in Gwinnett. Early release was last week - Wednesday and Thursday. It was defintely scheduled as a parent-teacher conference. The confirmation letter for my appointment was at 5:30pm. I was never told it would be a group environment, but I never asked if it would be. I just assumed it would be one on one or the homeroom teacher would provided input received from the other 3 teachers. FYI… the homeroom teacher is part of the team.

FYI… the principal is a great lady and they have an excellent staff. However, I was shocked that a parent-teacher conference would be held in this manner.

Did anyone else in Gwinnett, experience this at a middle school?

By Elaine

November 20, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

What you’re describing sounds more like “Open House” or “Curriculum Night” than a conference. It’s especially a waste of your time if they have one/both of these, too.

Many middle schools don’t have conferences at all. High schools definitely don’t. Some do, but with just the “homeroom” or “advisement” teacher…whereas you must make a special appt. to meet with another teacher(s). I think you probably would have preferred a real conference with one of them over wasting your time with all of them and the other parents, too. It can be a scheduling nightmare to try to get all those people in the same room at the same time, but if a kid needs it, it’s worth it.

Not to defend wasting your time, which that “conference” definitely did, but a middle school “team” of teachers will teach roughly 100-150 students. If the whole team were to hold a conference with each student’s family, that would be 3-4 times the number of conferences an elementary teacher usually has…and it usually takes an elementary teacher 3 half-days plus some extra to get them in. Middle schools and high schools get little or no release time for conferences. If districts, teachers, and parents decide that across-the-board secondary conferences are a good thing, time needs to be allotted for it.

By chuck

November 20, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this

I have to agree with Martha. I have taught for 17 years and have never heard of a “group” parent conference. We meet as a team with individual parents and we schedule 2-3 parent events each year just to get to know the parents a little bit and to give them the opportunity to receive information about things such as High School magnet programs,etc.

There have been a couple of times when we have met with a group of parents whose children were in danger of failing the 8th grade. We called it “Parent University” or something like that and had speakers in to give them advice on how to help their children pass. We would never discuss individual students at that point and parents were told up front what we were doing so that if they didn’t want to come, they didn’t have to.

I personally would be very interested to see how they worded the letter to you…without the school and personal information of course.

By sue

November 20, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this

My son goes to a Gwinnett County middle school. He is in 8th grade. Every year, I get a letter that basically says: Your child is working at or above AKS standards and we don’t feel the need to hold a conference at this time. However, if you would like to schedule one, please contact us.

I always felt like the teachers would think I was wasting their time, or that I was in there for an ego boost (who doesn’t like to hear, “Mrs. Smith, your child is doing fantastic and is a joy to teach”?). I have found that if any problem arises–as small as a question on an assignment or as big as a bully issue, his teachers have always responded to my emails.

By The Parent

November 20, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

Early Release Conference Days

Wednesday, November 15th and Thursday, November 16th are Early Release Conference Days for “Blank Middle” School. Students will be released at 1:30 both days so that teachers can meet with parents during scheduled conferences. If you would like to schedule a conference please call the school at 770-000-0000.

This was taken from the weekly newsletter. The actual letter was signed and sent back to the homeroom teacher confirming that I would be there on a Thursday at 5:30PM.

I did not remove anything from what was printed on the newsletter. I can email you a copy if you would like. I just don’t want this to reflect badly on the school, because that is not what my letter to Patti was about.

The letter I signed and returned, used exactly the same wording - except there was a field for me to accept the date and time or to decline to attend the meeting all together.

It never said I would be meeting with Mrs. A, Mrs. B, Mrs. C and Mrs. D - in addition to all of the other parents who signed up to meet at 5:30pm on Thursday.

By Jeff

November 20, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

OK, even I‘ve never heard of the type you describe here.

I’ve operated a few that were scheduled outside of the “Parent Teacher Conference” half days that were all 3 of us teachers with the parent, and usually the Curriculum Coach and Counselor is involved as well (the counselor is another issue for another rant though). For one the Principal was there. The ones that are on the “Parent Teacher Conference” half days though generally work with me in my room with detailed progress reports (gotta love software!!) which I discuss with parents. In those, I generally let the parent ask questions and I answer, generally other parents are in the room as well. I can pull up samples of class notes ,seating charts, etc on the SMARTboard for all to see.

Like I said though: the one Patti decribes sounds REALLY wierd….

BTW: I apologize for all spelling errors. I’m in North GA for the week at my parents’ house, and they keep this place FAR colder than I keep my place in South GA! (And people wonder how I learned to tolerate such cold temps!)

By AFather

November 20, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this

OK, let me clarify something. My incident happened in Dekalb. Also, I think I need to clarify that the parent teacher conference was not held in front of other parents, but it was with the 4 or 5 teachers that were on what they call a team. If my daughter is doing great in math, but has a problem with her english teacher and all of them are sitting there, they all take sides. Once the child is labeled as a problem child, it follows her to the rest of the teachers. You should hear how they talk about these kids in the teacher’s lounge. I know because my wife worked in the school system. My thing is, if we have a problem that we would like to discuss with the english teacher, there is no need for the math, history and other teachers to be present.

By Ernest

November 20, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this

AFather, I’ve got to ask, did you request to speak only with the one teacher? As Elaine indicated above, I understand why they use the team approach but if you feel your alloted time can be best used by speaking to one member of the team, ask for that.

I had a similar situation earlier this year and they respected my request. Once I finished meeting with that teacher, I asked if the other team members would like to join us.

By jim d

November 20, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

Indeed it sounds like a P/T meeting that was asked for by the parent. I generally found several teachers in attendance for these. I attributed it to teachers covering their backside. Can’t say as I blame them much in our litigious society.

By Amy

November 20, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

To A Father - I can relate to how you feel. We had a conference with our middle-schooler’s teachers about his behavior, all of them - and one of them mentioned him leaving class to “take his medication.” He left class for two weeks to take Advil for a chest muscle - but my fear was that the other teachers heard “medication” - we were talking about behavior - hence, PROBLEM CHILD. I can’t even “go there” with the teachers because I’m afraid of what my son will experience if we are labeled PROBLEM PARENTS. It is very hard.

By jim d

November 20, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

Yo Sue,

Be involved. I think teachers actually enjoy speaking with concerned parents even when their child is doing well.

You may even discover your child is doing better (or worse) than your expectations. Don’t fear letting a teacher know your expectations exceed those of the teacher and/or the school system.

By jim d

November 20, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

Amy go ahead and be your childs advocate—No one else will.

By Leia

November 20, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

AFather - Here’s a news flash for you - whether all of your daughter’s teachers were at that meeting or not - her reputation would still be discussed by all of the teachers she had! You’re right - teachers do discuss students, good and bad, during our “free” time. But, we’re smart enough not to do it when the parent volunteers (AKA - bigmouth, spying parents!) are around.

I’ve had “group” meetings before and we’ve had quite a different outcome. Oftentimes, one teacher will think that a student is wonderful, while another will think she is the spawn of Satan. I think it’s good for the parent to have a complete picture of how the student behaves/interacts in each of the classes.

And, by the way - you could always ask the other teachers to leave - I know they would appreciate not having to stay for the meeting!

By JustMe

November 20, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

In my high school, we have scheduled appointments between parents and individual teachers. As a teacher, I average about 3 or 4 parents scheduled per conference night every though I teach a full load of students (over 100).

And, of those 3 or 4, I have already been in contact with about 2 of them and so there is really nothing more to say.

By jim d

November 20, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

Amy

A problem parent?

My child is a jr. in HS and I still attend every opportunity to speak with his teachers.

Am I a Problem? Well some may think so but then there are those that truly understand what an involved parent is.

By the real EW

November 20, 2006 12:17 PM | Link to this

To Amy, Sue, and others:

I’m a Fulton county middle school teacher, and I welcome along with my colleagues any type of communication via face to face, email or phone calls in reference to students. We have a conference protocol where we discuss any issues and then come up the student and then we put in an action plan in place for the student. We always try to end the conference on a positive note, with an action plan that will show improvement if the teacher, student and PARENT commits to it.

I’m sorry that you have had this type of experience, however give some of us the benefit of the doubt, most of us are in it to make a positive impact. Any time at your student’s school is not a waste of time!

By Amy

November 20, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

I am concerned because they believe my son is “brilliant” and when he makes an 88 or 89, he is not living up to his potential. He is messy and disorganized, and in the meetings they offer all these solutions - all very good - but don’t know that we’ve been doing them since he was 8. They say in front of him that he won’t be able to hold a job, or be productive in society if he doesn’t straighten up - I just sense so much pressure in his life. The conferences over the last two years have been like that (middle school) and I long for my child to be able to play and enjoy his life. Do teachers push that hard overall?

I’m grateful they think he has such potential - but the methods are backfiring and making him feel like a failure. How do I advocate for that?

By Amy

November 20, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this

My husband is a teacher as well. We definitely want to be involved parents, but over the years of course he has had the overbearing mothers that want to baby their kids, and I have listened to him, and maybe that contributes to my fear of being THAT PARENT.

By The Parent

November 20, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this

Jim D - there were at least 25 parents in the room Thursday at 5:30PM. I can assure you that we did not call the teacher(s) and request a group meeting to discuss our children.

I can also assure you that my next door neighbor did not call the teacher(s) to request a group meeting with the team of teacher, who teach her 6th grader - along with all of his class mates.

I do want to clarify, that the teachers did NOT use that scheduled period to GANG up on the parents. They were very entertaining and praised all of the students. However, it should have been outlined that it would be more of an update on the curriculumn, class behvior, Materials Fund Raiser, etc… and not SOLD as a Parent/Teacher conference.

If I had none last Thursday, what I know today….. I would have saved myself the trip, because these teachers email progress reports EVERY FRIDAY with grades. They use SchoolNotes.com like it’s the Bible and I appreciate it. They make sure that our children make use of the AGENDA’s provided by the school system.

It seems that I am correct, when I too thought it STRANGE, that the early release days - set aside for conferences - were scheduled as a group.

If the letter or someone had clarified that this would be a group environment, to cover the classroom overall, I would have surely declined. I believe it was not TOLD to the parents, because they knew that most of us would have DECLINED to attend.

I would not have written Patti had it been scheduled as a meeting to update Parents about Problems in the school. However, when people think Parent/Teacher conference, we think specifics about my child with their teachers, in a closed session.

By JustMe

November 20, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

jim d -

As a teacher, I define a “problem parent” not as one that is involved out of the best interest for their child. A problem parent is one that always believes that their child can do no wrong. A problem parent is one that always blames the teacher for everything from grades to poor student behavior. A problem parent is one that has no clue how to parent - discipline, the concept of rewards/consequences, etc. A problem parent is one that believes that their only responsibility to their child is to provide material things - they do not have to teach them morals, the difference between right and wrong, etc.

I love involved parents when they are truely interested in improving their child’s grades and/or behavior and not interested in finding ways to enable their child’s bad behavior or poor grades.

One question that I always ask of any parents - So tell me, how much time do you see your child work on school work every night?

By jim d

November 20, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this

Amy,

Messy and disorganized?

Ask for his gifted teacher to set in. Many gifted kids fit into the messy and disorganized category.

By jim d

November 20, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

Dear parent,

In that case I’d have had a few comments for the teachers to explain my expectations of them.

By AFather

November 20, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

Leia, you sound like the kinda teacher I try to avoid. You seem to have a real attitude based on your comments. If a parent is concerned, I guess I am a problem parent. And a parent that takes time off from work to sit in on a class is not a big mouth spying parent. It’s teachers like you that make the system so bad. No wonder we rank so far behind other states as far as education goes. Most of our teachers aren’t worth a dayum.

By jim d

November 20, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this

Just me,

If my childs definition of a problem parent is simular,Then I suppose my child thinks I am a problem parent.

I have always gone in with an open mind, wanting to hear “the rest of the story”. I realize that I can get one view at home every day and am always interested in knowing the other sides views. I don’t always side with my child, usually don’t, But have been known to and made my expectations clearly known to my child as well as his teachers.

In all these years I can honestly say I’ve only offended one teacher that I’m aware of and she was clearly wrong.

You guys do a hell of a job but you aren’t flawless.

By AFather

November 20, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this

Leia, your comments sound like the kind of teacher I try to avoid. As a concerned parent, I will take time off work, pop in and sit in on a class. Call me noisy and big mouth if you like. If you’re doing your job you don’t have to worry about parents spying and being big mouth. It’s teachers like you that make the system bad. No wonder we rank far behind other states in education. One other thing, there is a site called RateMyTeacher.com where the kids really tell all about the sorry teachers. Teachers tried to have it shut down, but so far, it’s still there.

By Amy

November 20, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

Jim D - it is the gifted teachers that are saying he won’t be able to function in society. And maybe that is where I am hung up - I was hoping we could work together in areas I have no clue about - I didn’t have the struggles he does (and I am not as smart as he is - already!) and am working hard not to say “JUST DO IT!!!!!!! WHY IS THIS SO HARD????” The teachers panic me that he won’t grow up acceptably. (In my panic moments.)

I’ve had to have many boy parents tell me that sometimes it just clicks in, but I feel the pressure from the teachers that it needs to be today!

I do appreciate the input from several of you - however, it’s teachers like Leia that scare me.

By the real EW

November 20, 2006 01:29 PM | Link to this

The Parent,

Thanks for the additional info, it sounds like a Team update, or Curriculum night situation, however I promise you, the administration in that building and in every other school in Georgia, puts pressure on the teachers to get bodies in the door!

Most times, in this situation the parents that don’t need to show up usually do and the parents we desperately need to see don’t come. My concern is that you think it was a wasted trip! It wasn’t wasted that you took the time to come to a meeting therefore setting an example to your student that you are committed to their well being! You just didn’t get the time or information that YOU wanted, BUT you did make an impact. The teachers saw that you were concerned enough to A. make an appointment B. keep it C. show up — now how you go from here on out will be up to you.

A note on early release days: THEY ARE A WASTE OF TIME. I hate them, why? A. Well you are so rushed in the day you really don’t have anytime for instruction. (Everyone still has to eat lunch, and that takes up time in itself) B. The kids are so excited because they know that they are going home early. C. Teachers hate it because even though its early release, most parents still say they cannot come into the school for an appointment until after THEY get off work, which means teachers have to stay late - is that fair?

I love my school, our team has a policy, No after school conferences - we schedule during planning unless it is a dire emergency. It lets us see if parents are truly committed to take time off from their jobs to check on their child’s progress. Also you want to see an angry parent, that parent is one that has to take off work because their child is goofing and missing vacation time, it gives the parent and student more accountability

By Amy

November 20, 2006 01:40 PM | Link to this

Dear EW - I was with you until you said a parent has to show you their commitment by taking time off work. I see your point, but please don’t make a judgement when there are so many single parents out there who have bosses who aren’t sympathetic, or people like me, who have chosen to work part-time (from the time I drop off my son until the time to pick him up) and if I don’t work, I don’t get paid. That’s a huge assumption on your part. Remember, we are adults, we don’t have to be held accountable by you. Thanks for listening. Amy

By jim d

November 20, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this

Amy,

Perhaps I was fortunate that he had an extermely gifted teacher teaching his gifted classes for several years. She was able to explain most of my fears away.

Like I said, today he’s nearly half way through his Jr. Year, still messy and disorganized but pulling the grades (most of the time) I must admit we’ve allowed him to choose his HS classes and he geerally has only taken one or two gifted classes each year. As starnge as it may be, those are the classes he excells at.

As the parent of a pretty gifted kid My suggestion would be not to press.—— Let him be a kid too.

Just my opinon but I really think the schools place way too much on these kids, too early.

By the real EW

November 20, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this

Amy,

First, you are not being held accountable to me, you are being held accountable to your child and their progress. Why is it then that I have to take time away from my family to discuss your child’s progress? In my contract I only have to be here until 3:50, anything after that is on my time without getting paid. By taking off the time it shows the commitment you as a parent has made to your child - not to me.

I was a single parent and I understand HOWEVER I had to do what I had to do, I didn’t want a pity party because I was single, or I decided to work hours or a job that wasn’t flexible to allowing me to see about my most important thing in life which is my children.

Currently, if I want a conference with my child’s teacher, I have to take off work, even if it is a teacher conference day, because simply - I’m supposed to be at work conferencing with parents.

Please don’t assume that I think you are held accountable to me and I know we are adults, I just want most parents (not you) to start acting like adults and realize that I’m there teacher, not there parent and I have a life - family and husband that I must be there for as well. So a sacrifice of maybe an hour if YOUR child is having difficulties is not too much to ask ~ is it?

And remember, if it is an emergency I will stay after school, as I stay to help my students who want to be helped – now I don’t mind sacrificing time away from my family for that.

By luvs2teach

November 20, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this

Amy - I didn’t read that (committed = taking off work) at all. I read that EW doesn’t like the half day because most parents can’t get off work, and teachers end up staying late anyway - whole different animal, IMHO.

Like others, I have never heard of a “conference” done in the manner discribed - that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, just not in the schools where I have worked.

We have half days and schedule individual conferences, but the parent only gets to see one teacher. We as a team try to have as much info from each class as possible, particularly if they have a D or F.

If a parent requests another conference, they have a choice of the team or just an individual teacher - depends on what the student needs and the parent wants. Sometimes admin is there; sometimes not.

A large part of what happens in a conference has to do with the tone - an adversarial tone from either side (parents or teachers) helps no one. The idea of “ganging up” is repellent. Remember - a child having issues would LOVE the adults in his life to be fighting with each other, because then they are not focused on HIM (or her). Parents and teachers should be teaming up with each other for the child, not against each other as the child stands back and laughs.

Like EW, I don’t like the half days either - learning drastically diminishes on those days. I would prefer a full day for conferences with a flex schedule (11 - 7 for example) so we could meet with parents after work.

Involved is good - making excuses is bad - not being there at all is worse.

By catlady

November 20, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this

Remember that “conferences” count as parent involvment for NCLB, SACS, Title 1, etc. So there is pressure to get as many parents to school as possible.

Be sure your expectations are clear to your child’s teacher: a meeting with one teacher, with the team, etc. And DO NOT put up with the kind of “conference” described here! If I had been the parent who posed the question, I would have complained all the way up the food chain about the apparent misrepresentation!

I agree with an earlier blogger about scheduling the conferences for problem students at the teacher’s convenience because the “hassle factor” frequently helps with putting pressure on the immediate correction of the problem. I am sympathetic to the plight of working parents (being one) but the job of parents (in this day and age) is one that is undertaken voluntarily, with the cocommittant sacrifice and inconvenience.

A problem for elementary teachers is we have very, very little planning time for conferences, unlike many middle and high school teachers.

I have a pair of parents upset with me right now: we scheduled meetings to talk about their 2 children on different days, but the parents wanted to do both kids’ on the same day at the same time—logistical nightmare to get that many teachers free at the same time, and many of us had to switch meetings already set with other parents. But we did, and the parents set the meeting for 3:30. At 3:45 we had not heard from them, so, since that is the end of our school day, some of us left. The parents arrived a little after 4 and were VERY ANGRY that the teachers were not available!

By Peachy

November 20, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

I’ve only had one or two “problem” parents in my long career…and one of them was a fellow teacher. Both parents were doctors and expected their son to be the “perfect” student. He was not. He was a mess. They had badgered him from the early years and had badgered his teachers. I have visions of these parents verbally belittling the child in front of everyone in the hallway when he could not find the homework they had all 3 stayed up late and worked to complete. Little Johnny lost it. The parents acted as if he had lost the secret family recipe (passed down for generations) for barbecue sauce or something. Screaming, throwing things out of his locker, notebooks, whatever….he was a mess then and he is a mess now….with one ex and one present wife…two children and not able to support any of them.

The only other problem parent I can remember was one who didn’t think Little Johnny could manage his own lunch money, couldn’t pay for his fees, couldn’t get his projects to the classroom by himself, etc. The mother was there every day, in the halls helping him to get his day started right. The other kids made horrible fun of him because of it and she never backed down….did it all year long. I wonder if she does this in high school? Poor kid.

Children who have special needs and are provided with extra test taking time, people to read the test to them, yada yada yada…have a rude awakening facing them when real life hits them head-on. Bosses don’t extend deadlines, they don’t read to anyone and mama and daddy can dang well keep out of the situation.

I don’t know the answer…wish I did.

By luvs2teach

November 20, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

Oops - Amy, I reread the last paragraph, EW did mention committment and getting off work.

However, I may be wrong, but unsympathetic boss or no, isn’t leaving for a PT conference covered under the Family Leave act?

I still like the idea of a full day with flex scheduling.

By Amy

November 20, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Jim D. I agree. I think he excels at those classes because they truly are structured for him. My son is bored in his other classes - no excuse - but he is.

By Leia

November 20, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

AFather - I’m just trying to tell you the truth about what goes on! You think I’m the kind of teacher you’d try to avoid, but, I’m here to tell you that I have parents and students attempting to rearrange their schedules so they can get me as their teacher!

I know you’re not in Gwinnett County if you pop into a classroom! You have to sign in as a Visitor and have an appointment before you could do that here. And, it has absolutely nothing to do with catching someone not doing their job!

As far as RateMyTeacher.com - you can’t be that simple! Kids who get bad grades are going to write bad things about teachers, and kids who get good grades write good things! How easy is that? And, trust me - we are adults and we really don’t care what the students think about us! Perhaps if these students spent more time on homework, reading, etc. and less time trying to bash a teacher, they’d fare better in school. Thank your lucky stars that there’s no site called RateMyStudents.com or RateMyStudentsParents.com! That would be hilarious!

By Lee

November 20, 2006 02:17 PM | Link to this

EW, per your comment: “I love my school, our team has a policy, No after school conferences.”

How freakin’ convenient - for the teachers who view their job as just that, a job. The administration who set this policy knows that it places a hardship on many parents who work in jobs that do not permit them to get off - for any reason.

My wife is a teacher and I guarantee you that she would meet a parent at 11pm in the McDonalds parking lot if she thought that it would help one of her “babies.” She knew when she entered this profession that it wasn’t a “9-5” job but rather a calling.

By The Parent

November 20, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this

the Real EW -

Just because a parent doesn’t show up during business hours does not mean they do not care about their children.

I work from home and have the ability to set a flexible schedule, but not everyone has that ability.

Your policy is a very selfish policy. If it came down to a vote on your policy, I would side with people like Amy who have to work with employers who will fire you at the drop of a dime.

Don’t get me wrong, I do understand that teachers have to stay late to keep those 5:30pm conferences, but keep in mind that parents are also required to work late - for the benefit of the customers at their place of employment. Not all of them receive overtime pay or big bonuses.

Also, many parents have to leave work early, just to make the 2:00pm conferences or be late to work, just to make the 8:30 and 9:00Am morning conferences.

Also, I have ALWAYS and WILL ALWAYS have conferences with my daughters teachers. However, I will NEVER attend another GROUP parent/teacher conference. That’s not my prefered method of communicating.

The one thing I love about my middle school, is that they come in early on Wednesday to give students extra help. They use SchoolNotes.com religiously. They are email queens/kings and my daughter thinks they are all Gods. Couldn’t ask for a better group of teachers. Their leader is truly dedicated to providing excellent service and she has a great team of teachers.

By Lee

November 20, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this

Per Catlady’s comment: “Remember that “conferences” count as parent involvment for NCLB, SACS, Title 1, etc. So there is pressure to get as many parents to school as possible.”

Ahh. Now it is beginning to make sense. It’s just another numbers game, much like what they are doing with attendence and all these insane tests.

By Amy

November 20, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this

Sorry, I didn’t mean to inflame. I will get off work - one reason I chose to work part-time was to be there for our kids - there are just so many factors, for teachers and parents. My personal one is even when we moved to lessen our commute, the areas we drive in now are horrible and we can’t get anywhere in a timely manner. So there you go. Our teachers are so good about e-mail - it is just hard to sit in those conferences and feel the expectations of perfection. So hard to fulfill - for us and our kids.

By AFather

November 20, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this

Leia, actually the parents have a section too on RateMyTeacher.com. Well all I can say is having been involved for so long (my oldest child is 30, now my youngest is 17) I know a lot of these teachers and a lot of what those kids are saying is noteworthy.

By catlady

November 20, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this

the parent—what a wonderful thing to say about your daughter’s teachers! They are fortunate to have you as a parent of a student at the school!

There is a difference between kids in academic trouble and other kinds of trouble (although frequently they are the same kids). I have met parents at a fast food restaurant, at their homes, at the public library, and I believe a face to face meeting is usually the most productive. But you would not believe how many folks won’t even return a phone call. Or they “stand us up”. And there are no consequences for this. My time is valuable, too. I am biased because I believe your children should be one of the 3 most important things in your life (PERIOD)! Be the adult! Show leadership/accountability for your children!

By the real EW

November 20, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this

Lee -

Please don’t judge me, I would bend over backwards for my students, what I ask is that the parents do the same for THERE CHILDREN.

I understand it is a calling, and I left a nice corporate job to be here in the middle school environment which most people think that I’m crazy to be in. I know that it is a calling when I do the following:

A. spend my own money for student supplies

B. Give my cell phone number to parents and students if they are having issues.

C. Feed and clothe my students who are extremely impoverished.

D. Do stay late to help students who want to be helped.

So Lee, you can sit there and judge me if you want to but come and sit in my shoes with my 99% percent free/lunch population - that students wear better shoes than my children, but I cant see a parent when I need to – and then tell me if I should sacrifice one minute away from my children for parents who are not willing to sacrifice for their own.

THE PARENT - you think what you will, it is not a selfish policy it is a policy of asking the parent to be involved in their own child’s success, or maybe I should picket like teachers are doing at Miller Grove, that is totally ridiculous when teachers and the administration have to result to those means to “try” to get parents involved

By jim d

November 20, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

Again let me say,

Some teachers wonder why they are treated like rank and file workers.

The answer to that question is because they act like rank and file. If they wanted to be treated as the professionals they profess to be they would act like pro’s.

It’s really that simple.

By jim d

November 20, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

Amy—might I suggest you talk to the teacher and come up then with some more realistic goals and expectations.

By the real EW

November 20, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this

Amy,

The fact that you are even involved and willing to listen shows great things about you and the fact that you want the best for your child. I commend you, I would love to have even ten parents such as yourself.

By catlady

November 20, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

And about the bright/messy corrundum: in 33 years, many of my brightest students were disorganized when they were younger. It got better as the world imposed its sanctions for their messiness/disorganization, and they got passed over for promotion, lost top honors, etc. Their brightness could not insulate them from natural consequences, and they developed habits that helped them meet their goals. I think parents of students like these can model organized behavior, and let the child face the consequences of his disorganization. Bright children, if not allowed to blame others and if parents don’t run interference for them, will develop the skills they need to succeed in line with their advanced ability. Actually, IMHO, that works for all the students!

By Amy

November 20, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this

Real EW - that makes me sad. The parents I know work so hard - I wish you had that - I know it takes a heart of gold to teach these days - I couldn’t - but I married someone who could! He loves his kids and I’m grateful that he can help me navigate the school system. Gotta go! Thanks to all for the input! Amy

By Peachy

November 20, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this

Yes, we as teachers have to fulfill the AYP, NCLB, etc. crap and yes we have to document any parental contact. That’s not our fault….we don’t make the rules. As a matter of fact, if all schools are like my school, teachers have no say in such things.

Often we are instructed by consultants who haven’t taught a child in 10 or more years and were mediocre at best then. You have to know which fanny to kiss to get along in the world of education. And being really good at fanny-kissing will move you right on up the ladder.

By emjay

November 20, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

I’m just wondering… is anyone else worried by the “teachers” on this blog who don’t know the difference between the correct use of “there” and “their”? No wonder our kids can’t read or write.

By I Left the "Calling"

November 20, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this

This is why I got out of education. Parents expect teachers to make accomodations for their work schedules and busy lives. Students model these bad habits, too.

I hate hearing how “teaching is a calling”. Why isn’t parenting a calling? Most salaried, non-exempt positions pay 2-3 times what educators make. I don’t think $35k/year covers the overtime teachers are expected to give. Teaching is a profession, and teachers ought to act as professionals. But I don’t know of many other professions where the professionals are criticized for how they work. Maybe teachers should go to offices during school breaks and tell accountants, managers, and other “professionals” how to do their jobs better.

Sorry for the bitterness, but some of the postings here are insane.

By Whoa

November 20, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

Dude,———-the difference is that parents often learn from their mistakes—a lotta teachers don’t make any (ask em)

By AFather

November 20, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

“I Left The Calling” you must have been in one of the poor districts. Teachers in Dekalb start out between $35K - 38K, but I know a lot of teachers pulling down $60K - $70K. The counselors and assistant principals are pulling down $75k - $90K and the principals are pulling over $100K. They make more than they are worth in Dekalb. And no matter how sorry their behind is, about the only way they can get fired is if they Molest a Child.

By C.R.H.

November 20, 2006 05:23 PM | Link to this

I agree with I left the “calling”…Jim D. You are way out of line on your comment about acting like pros. The fact is I know of NO OTHER PROFESSION that is held accountable for their charges, nor put through the ringer for every perceived “injustice” done to someone’s precious little baby. When was the last time you heard about a Doctor losing his/her job because their moron patients died when they refused to follow the doctor’s advice to quit smoking, get more exercise, take their meds, etc…? To expect teachers to not have a life because you have found your life a little too time consuming is your problem. I left teaching too, and the only regret I have is that I should have done it sooner! It really is just a matter of time before the proverbial poop hits the fan and a large number of teachers walk away (many already have). I guess all these “armchair quarterbacks” can jump on in & see how easy it really is to teach. And hey, summer off to boot, what a great perk!

By jim dumond

November 20, 2006 05:25 PM | Link to this

No Whoa,

The difference is that,

Parents must live with their mistake.

Teachers may pass them on.

By C.R.H.

November 20, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this

Any teacher pulling 60 -70K has over 20 years AND a doctorate degree. Most people with the same number of years experience and the terminal degree make a LOT more than that. For instance with my little master’s degree and about 10 years of teaching experience, I pulled about 51k as a teacher…with the same degree and only my few years of creditable lab experience I pull significantly more (think “principal’s pay”) in the private sector. And people wonder why we can’t find science, math and SPED teachers…Let’s see low pay and terrible working conditions or more cash and you get to work with at least some semblence of human beings (not counting the primates and rodents in the labs).

By HS Teacher Too

November 20, 2006 05:32 PM | Link to this

emjay —

I didn’t want to say it, but AMEN.

It makes us all look bad.

By HS Teacher Too

November 20, 2006 05:33 PM | Link to this

emjay —

I didn’t want to say it, but AMEN.

They make all of us look bad.

By Mom of Two

November 20, 2006 05:34 PM | Link to this

The Real EW: I would have yanked my kid out of your class the first time you used “there” instead of “their” in any written correspondence. My child learned the difference in those two words in the 2nd grade. As a teacher, if you don’t know the difference, you have NO BUSINESS in a classroom. You can’t brush it off as a typo since you did it in more than one post, multiple times in a single post and even in all caps once.

As for the teacher who seems to think that a parent who doesn’t take off work to attend a conference in the middle of the day is a bad parent; walk a single day in my shoes or the shoes of many other parents out there. As an only parent (father is deceased), the income that I generate is the only way I can feed, clothe and otherwise take care of my children. I am not going to sacrifice my job and food out of my children’s mouths because you can’t be bothered to schedule a conference at a time that I don’t have to be at work. Thankfully, the teachers my older child has had so far schedule conferences as early as 7:00 AM.

Another poster also mentioned his “messy and disorganized” gifted student. That may or may not have been the same person who mentioned his child does well in the gifted class and so-so in the regular classes. This is perfectly normal and actually fairly typical for a gifted student. You could have been describing my child. :)

By jim dumond

November 20, 2006 05:46 PM | Link to this

CRH,

Wroong.

I said some teachers act this way are you saying None do?

You think Dr.s arent held accountable for every little mistake? Would you like to pick up their mal practice insurance bill for a year?

By AFather

November 20, 2006 05:48 PM | Link to this

C.R.H, you’re right, that pay progresses upwards with years of service. Funny you mentioned “Doctorate”, I know plenty of them that run around the system with a doctorate and can’t use email. A lot of your principals and counselors can’t use email. It’s pitiful.

By jim dumond

November 20, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

Amy,

Don’t blame your sons performance on boredom when it really associates better to being in classes with kids he’s more compatible with. Learn the difference.

By Jeff

November 20, 2006 06:01 PM | Link to this

OK, just read through evberything I missed, and here goes:

Team based meetings are the ONLY ones I will do. End of discussion. Want to talk to me? You’re gonna tallk to Sci/SocStu and ELA as well. HOPEFULLY the Curriculum Coach will be there as well. (Even though we had our difficulties early in the year, we seem to be on the same page now and we work well together.) The reason: I’ve had TOO MANY conferences alone where all the parent does is try to attack me. At least with the team approach, it can be documented as such and not just my word against their’s.

After school meetings: Not gonna happen unless I get a direct order, and even then I’ll do my best to skip it. I generally sign in about an hour before school starts, which means that I can legally leave as soon as the busses do and I’ve already donated roughly 30 min/ day to the system for unpaid work.

“Teachers talking about students”: My school only has one team per grade level, and I can honestly say that while we do talk about our students to each other, the various grade levels do not talk to each other about individual students that much. The exception being if a difficult student is being difficult in the presence of another grade level teacher and said teacher asks, we will be honest.

BTW: I personally LOVE the team based approach, and guess what? Colleges are porting to it in some cases… including a major one in the ATL area….

By Old physics teacher

November 20, 2006 06:07 PM | Link to this

jim dumond, Nope! Few doctors are held accountable for their mistakes, and fewer still will be accountable in the future. Check what our legislature did last year about this. And I sure would like to pick up their malpractice insurance…if I was paid what they are!

AFather, You’re right, and it is an embarrassment to the profession. One just graduated with a Ph. D in Leadership and it took 4 attempts for him to pass the Teacher Certification Test in his teaching field.

By Competitive

November 20, 2006 06:13 PM | Link to this

Most PTCs are a waste of time, in my professional opinion. Here are some helpful hints that might make conferences more productive for all involved.

Honestly, I think PTCs are overrated. One in 10 makes a difference in the achievement of a student, in my experience.

By luvs2teach

November 20, 2006 06:46 PM | Link to this

Well said, competitive…

Your comments reminded me of an unsuccessful PTC with one of the very few “problem parents” I’ve ever had.

The child was failing most of his classes and was a huge behavior problem. He spent a lot of time in ISS. When mom was there, though, he was an angel - you would never believe that this was the same child! So naturally, mom didn’t believe the problem was her boy.

She asked me for advice about his below level reading, and I said that he should be reading at least 30 minutes a night - I even suggested Sprots Illustrated for Kids, or something else he might like. Her response? I can’t get him to do that.

Oh, really. Well, then, what miracles do you expect us to perform?

Funny part was that she kept threatening to call Governor Barnes - 2 years after Perdue had taken office!

By Lee

November 21, 2006 08:24 AM | Link to this

I left the calling: If you don’t understand what I meant when I said teaching is a “calling,” then it is well that you left teaching. “The calling” are all those little intangibles that make the difference between someone whose job it is to teach and someone who is a “teacher.”

Sorta like the adage “Any man can be a father, but it takes someone special to be a Daddy.”

By Jack

November 21, 2006 08:42 AM | Link to this

Let me say as a former Gwinnett county middle school teacher that most PTC’s are a waste of time. The reason for this is that most of the time parents don’t even bother to show up and typically the ones that do are the ones that teachers didn’t need to see anyways. I was an electives teacher so I went to conferences for all grades. I bet you that in the 3 years I was at that school I met with a total of ten parents. We had to document which parents we met with and I always tried to go to the conferences for my students that were doing poorly in my class. Usually my conference log was filled with no shows. Complete and total waste of my time. I would have much rather just had class that day and not get behind.

By Jeff

November 21, 2006 08:47 AM | Link to this

Lee:

It seems to me you - and the rest of the general American public - have come to confuse “teaching” and “babysitting”. As far as pure “teaching” goes, I’m one of the best you’ll EVER see, and I’ve got results from 4 years of tutoring to show it. But today, the purity of teaching is gone, replaced by NCLB, whiny parents who haven’t got a CLUE how to teach - or how to parent-, the MASSIVE amounts of paperwork, and today’s overly litigious society.

THOSE are the reasons I’m leaving the field I love to learn to love the field that I excel in. (It could be said that even though I am a GREAT Pure Teacher, I am EVEN BETTER at the field my degree is in. The same things that make me unable to teach in the current educational system make me almost untouchable in my field.)

By the real EW

November 21, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this

Good Morning,

This is directed to Mom of Two and Emjay. Yes, I used it incorrectly. I apologize for my mistake, you see I understand that I cannot make any mistakes because I’m a teacher, I’m supposed to be super human, you see I cannot make the mistakes of average humans. I am to uphold the use of the English language to the highest standard, so for that please cast me out - suspend my teaching certificate and after my four fights yesterday, and putting myself and my baby (I’m six months pregnant) in jeopardy trying to protect someone else’s child - please cast me out for my usage of ‘their’ and ‘there’.

While parents can send their students unprepared for class with no supplies, dirty, and sometimes hungry - I’m expected to be super human and provide supplies, feed them, and sometimes clothe them. I’m expected to contact the proper authorities to protect those children from parents who can make mistakes and yet they still retain the responsibility of raising a child even though they haven proven they are not capable.

I’m expected to be their teacher, counselor, protector, parent, and anything else on a given day. I’m expected to counsel their parents when they come in and say “I don’t know what to do with him or her” as if I have the magic answer. So yes, please snatch your little darlings from my class, because my usage of ‘their’ and ‘there’ proves that I’m incapable of making a positive impact on their lives, and guess what it will be them that will miss someone who is here not for the check, not for the holidays or schedule, but for the love of a generation of children whose (some) parents seem to be to busy, stressed, materialistic or just plain not capable of rearing a child. There I said it.

This is the exact reason why I read and rarely contribute. I wanted to talk about the subject, to try to give my opinion to Amy and The Parent who asked for it. Instead some of the commentary turned into taking out their frustration about me using ‘there’ and ‘their’.

Have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

By Miss Manners

November 21, 2006 09:22 AM | Link to this

The real EW, don’t trouble yourself over the pretentious posers who were too busy proofreading to pay attention to WHAT you were saying. They have revealed that they have a limited capacity to really understand what the blog format is all about. Blogging is like talking and when we are talking with others we would never point out their grammatical errors as that would be rude! And it is just as rude here. The rest of us make plenty of mistakes, too, despite out education or lack thereof. I would advise the spelling and grammar police to BACK OFF! and instead you may politely respond to what people are saying, not criticize how it is presented. (disclaimer, i am not proffing this post)

By Lee

November 21, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this

Jeff, no, I know the difference between “teaching” and “babysitting.”

But it sounds as though you are the one confused. In one sentence, you say you are “one of the best you’ll EVER see” and in another sentence you say that you are “unable to teach in the current educational system.” In another post, you say that you like the team conferences because “I’ve had TOO MANY conferences alone where all the parent does is try to attack me.”

What’s going on here Jeff? My wife has been teaching for 25 years and she might have one adversarial conference a year. You’ve been teaching for six months and have already had “too many.”

By Jeff

November 21, 2006 09:47 AM | Link to this

Lee:

Here are the numbers:

I tutored in the field that I am leaving teaching for for 4 years. In those 4 years, I tutored roughly 60 distinct students per semester. Of those 60, roughly 15 per semester were repeat and regular. (Think: I worked with them every week, on some weeks I worked with them virtually every day.) This was what I call a “pure teaching” environment. No NCLB, NO whiny parents, NO massive amounts of paperwork (though there was SOME paperwork), NO meetings I had to attend, etc.

In this environment: Of those 15 that were repeat and regular, it would invariable come that roughly 10 of them started coming to me early in the semester and had the test results showing that if they didn’t get extra help, they would fail this class. Of those 10, EVERY SINGLE ONE of them wound up passing, and 9 out of 10 wound up with a solid A or B.

In a PURE teaching environment, I KNOW I am among the best, and there you see my numbers. Over 4 years, that amounts to 720 students, 180 of which were repeat and regular, 100 of whom where more than likely going to fail the first time they saw me, and 99 of whom came out with an A or B.

I do not have the numbers to support this, but I would say that at least another 180 of that 720 were those that dropped the class after giving up hope. Some of those I saw in later semesters, some I did not. Of the 360 that are unaccounted for, that’s the ones that had a decent idea of what was going on and didn’t need me -or anyone else - that much, they just had some issue to figure out that was giving them fits.

BTW: Many of those 100 that I helped through that class? Look at the biggest companies in ATL as far as my industry goes, and you’ll see many of them all over the place in them. My former students are ALREADY outpacing me as far as salary goes , in some cases be a 3:1 or even 4:1 margin.

Now it is I who has to place catch up.

THAT is what I bring to the current field of education. THAT is what I want my current 6th graders to achieve. And THAT is what the current educational system basically completely denies them.

By Mom of Two

November 21, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

EW, your incorrect usage of “their” and “there” is merely the first indication of why you shouldn’t be in a classroom. A teacher’s grammar SHOULD be above reproach. How can you ever teach a child if you don’t know the basics yourself? It’s part of the job whether you like it or not.

Actually, your incorrect usage of basic words was just the straw that broke the camel’s back. In every post you have made, it’s been very, very clear that you consider teaching a job, you cannot tolerate those who are different from you, and you have no respect for others.

You are obviously antagonistic towards the children who have parents who earn less money than you. For some reason, you equate a low income with being bad parents and incapable. Instead of looking for solutions to help children of poorer families achieve, you complain about the fact that they come to you hungry and without pencils. If that bothers you so much, you don’t belong in a public school. There are plenty of private schools out there that won’t have any children showing up to school without breakfast or pencils.

Having a teaching certificate does not make someone a teacher. A love of the profession, a love for the children and parents, a desire to have a positive impact on every single child regardless of the hours their parents work or their economic status. Based on your posts, you stopped at the teaching certificate.

I would highly suggest you watch “The Ron Clark Story.” He is a teacher who truly cares about his students and their families AND insists his students know the difference between “their” and “there.”

By SNY

November 21, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

You seem to be very proud of YOUR accomplishments with these children. I do not hear you giving any credit to the parents of these children or even the children themselves. These kids did not accomplish these goals JUST because you were tutoring them. The accomplished these goals because they had a drive that wanted to succeed. You seem to be very arogant and I wouldn’t want my child in your class. There doesn’t seem to be any gray areas with you. It seems to be all black or white. That is not a good way to respond or teach children.

By Lee

November 21, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

Uh, Jeff, 60 students tutored per semester for 4 years = 480 students, not 720 like you said. You’re a math teacher, right?

A) “Whiny parents”

B) “I’ve had TOO MANY conferences alone where all the parent does is try to attack me”

C) “…unable to teach in the current educational system”

D) I’ve also read posts in which you commented on the large percentage of students who were failing in your class.

As a mathmetician, you should know something about correlation. Take a long, hard look at A..D above.

By the real EW

November 21, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

Thank you for judging me and my whole career based on the five or six posts in this one blog, I don’t understand how you can say some of these things. It is very hurtful.

I have taught in nice middle class school, but I chose to teach in an impoverished area, believe me - there’s no line outside the door to get here. I respect and honor my students and parents, but I don’t allow them to use excuses, or their circumstances as an excuse. You know why - because growing up I had the same circumstances. I am an African American woman, in an impoverished African American inner city school trying to be a role model to children, trying to show them that someone does care, that someone has been where they have been. Everyone has a story, you have yours, and I have mine. I have the Ron Clark bible, I have read it and seen him speak HOWEVER he is not the know all of dealing with students, but I do appreciate his suggestions.

Mother of Two ~ I won’t go tick for tack, I know my heart and why I’m here. Have a wonderful and blessed thanksgiving.

This antagonistic teacher who looks down on her lower socio – economic students and parents has to go and finish packing her Thanksgiving boxes for her some of her students – so she can ensure that they have something for Thanksgiving dinner.

By Jeff

November 21, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

Lee:

The environement I was in was year round. Summers count too, and that makes up the difference between the number I put and yours….

As far as the large number of students failing my class: I can edit my gradebook to get rid of names and email it to you next week, if you’d like. The ONE thing that you will notice in it IS a direct correlation: the fewer assignments you’ve turned in, the lower your grade. THE ONLY REASON STUDENTS ARE FAILING MY CLASS IS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT TURNING THEIR WORK IN, and that is NOT my problem.

SNY:

What I got those students to do, they would not have been able to do in a typical secondary education environment that you see today. Number one reason being that in today’s typical secondary education environment, too much is spoon fed. I have NEVER spoon fed, NOR WILL I EVER. Second, the stakes are not as high in the typical secondary education environment today. In the environment I worked with these people (BTW: I refer to them as kids, but most were older than me, many being QUITE older than me…), they stood to lose MUCH - to the tune of several hundred dollars - for failure, even though they could retake the class the very next semester. Today’s secondary students face no real consequences of that magnitude.

Make no mistake, SNY: Given two students of similar background and desire, both of whom were failing this class and only one of whom was coming to me: Only the one that came to me successfully completed the class, because even the regular teachers 9 times out of 10 simply said “Go see Jeff”.

You’re right, 9 things out of 10 are black and white with me. You see that as a bad thing. I see it as a GREAT thing. Our educational system fell by the wayside when “educators” started seeing things in shades of gray rather than standing firm on solid principles. As Thomas Jefferson once said, “In matters of principle, stand like a rock. In matters of style, swim like the fish.” 40, 30, 20, 10, 5, even 1 year ago, our education system in this great land continues to fall because people without spines continue to run it, and those with spines are forced out.

By the real EW

November 21, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this

One more thing, anyone interested in a good read over Thanksgiving ~ here’s one:

From Rage to Hope By Crystal Kuykendall

It provides excellent strategies for reaching minority students and helping them succeed.

By Jeff

November 21, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

SNY:

Ah, I see. Because they succeeded, it was THEM, but had they failed, it would have been MY fault.

Typical parent…. and the exact attidtude that drove me out…

By Jeff

November 21, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this

SNY:

Ah, I see. Because they succeeded, it was THEM, but had they failed, it would have been MY fault.

Typical parent…. and the exact attidtude that drove me out…

By luvs2teach

November 21, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

I admire Ron Clark, but are you all aware that even one as gifted and “called” to the profession as he no longer teaches?

Instead he is working to establish private schools.

Interesting, isn’t it, when even someone like that realizes that it’s more than just one factor, and that it’s the system that needs fixing.

By SNY

November 21, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

You are so arogant that you missed my whole point alltogether. My point was that you were not the only tutor in the area. The students or the parents could have chosen a different tutor. I do not consider taking things on a case by case matter not standing on principals. You could never be my daughter’s teacher. The two of us would never get along and trust me, of the two of us, you would not have the last say. You may be the teacher and know how to teach, but I am the parent and I know my child better than you would or could in 1 year. If I say that she needs x,y, and z in order to learn, then you better provide the lesson in a x,y, and z format for her to learn it. Period, bottom line. It sounds to me that you like to bully your students and your parents and make things be a “my way or the highway” type of situation and that just isn’t progressive at all.

EW,

You have, at times, come across as hating not just your job but also as hating the students and their parents for not being able to provide what you feel they need to survive. You may not mean to, but you do. I would be afraid to leave my child in your class as well with the thought that you may snap at her or say something out of the way to her one day. I couldn’t have that. Don’t take what I am saying the wrong way, because I am not complaining about it, I just want you to know that for some reason, this topic has seemed to put you in an uproar. (May be your hormones, girl. I’ve been pregnant twice and sometimes the smallest things used to set me off.) I think that it is wonderful that you are making Thanksgiving bags for your kids that may not have anything to eat otherwise. But you have to remember that not everyone has your same values. Most of us parents, do the best that we can. I used to work for a guy that didn’t let his hourly employees off work to enroll their kids in school at all, let alone go to a PTC. Give the parents the benefit of the doubt, we are not out here thinking of ways to make teachers stay at school longer. But, at my job, I have to stay late and I have to go in early. It comes with the territory. It isn’t exclusive to teachers. We hate it just as much. The PTC days could fall on training days for parents, or fall on a day when the president of the company wants to have a company meeting. He doesn’t want to hear that I have to leave in the middle of the meeting for any reason. We don’t get a say so on when the school systems have PTC days and we don’t get a say so on when we have to be at meetings or training for our jobs.

You teachers are complaining about the kids that come to school hungry and dirty, well if I miss work and get fired then my kids will be another one to add to your numbers because I will lose my job and won’t have any income coming into my home. So, answer this for me, how do we decide? What should we decide to do? Come to the meeting and lose our job or do not attend the meeting (providing a phone call, at the least) and reschedule for a better day and time? There doesn’t seem to be an answer to satisfy you guys on this blog.

By SNY

November 21, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

If THEY hadn’t done the work or looked for help, you wouldn’t have been needed in the first place. I’m not taking anything away from they HELP that you gave them, I’m just saying that you didn’t do it on YOUR OWN. Give them a little credit. And, no I wouldn’t have blame only you if they had failed. That would have been partly their fault as well. You are missing my whole point. You are too defensive to even understand my point.

BTW, I am not a typical parent. I expect the best from my child and her teacher. Anything less than either of their best and both of them will have to answer to me as to what is going on. I hold my daughter responsible for her homework and her studying. I hold the teacher responsible for teaching the concepts properly. If that is done then we have a perfect equation. Then, I check it all in the begining, the middle and again at the end. It is not my job to teach my child the concepts, it is my job to reinforce the concepts when she gets home and to make sure that she understands what the teacher put on the board and what she said during the instructional period. If all of that is done properly, then 2+2 will always equal 4 and my daughter will be successful. It is also my job to find any wrinkles. To make sure that if she doesn’t understand something that I help her or FIND someone who can. I don’t have to know all the answers, I just have to know where to go to find them. That is the kind of parent I am!!!!!

By jim dumond

November 21, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this

Teachers low expectations being displayed on this blog for having the tools they need to perform their job just really amazes me.

Folks, you can’t fix a car without the right tools, you can’t build a house without the proper tool and you sure as hell can’t teach without adequate tools. DEMAND THE TOOLS

By Jeff

November 21, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this

SNY:

While I agree that some principals DO need to be stood on - sometimes below the belt -, I said “principle”, as in something you believe in.

Actually, ofr the given subject matter much of the time I was the only option, unless you wanted to search out people on your own and take your chances. Even when I was not the only option though, I was the busier (re: hadf more sudents coming to me) option, because it was KNOWN how good I was (and am, in that area).

By the real EW

November 21, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this

Thank you SNY, I appreciate your honesty and am open for constructive criticism.

I’m a parent of two, (soon to be three) doing the best I can as well. At one point I was a single parent, I suppose (unfairly) I expect people to try like I tried, and it is unfair to expect them to think and react as I did. But please rest assured, I would treat your baby and any other of my students as I would want someone to treat my children. I have my days as all teachers have them, I pride myself in remembering how much of a handful I was when I was in middle school, so I try to understand and relate, but I don’t excuse, because simply my mother didn’t excuse me.

I know we all make mistakes, (as people have so eloquently pointed out mine) students, parents included. I don’t hate them, or look down on them I just want so much better for them, for my people (that’s who I’m currently working with). I sit and wonder will my daughter have any viable options for a husband, I sit and wonder why I’m sitting in a 7th grade classroom, providing water and snacks to my pregnant students, because they look as if their going to pass out. I sit and wonder why my county won’t send a home bound teacher for these students – so not only are their lives a challenge (11, 12, 13 with a baby) but now the system is ensuring that they will fail because they made a mistake.

Let me clarify, I will work with any parent who needs to come after school for a meeting, however our school policy is usually we don’t have after school conferences, if you want me to be totally honest, let me tell you why — we had a situation where a parent became extremely belligerent and combative and hit a teacher, the administrators and school resource officer was gone for the day, so the teacher was on their own to fend for themselves. After this incident, we have been told to complete our P/T conferences in the day or immediately after school (3:25 – 4:00) and if it is going to be later, let an administrator know and the SRO know so someone will be here – just in case. This is my environment, its real and sometimes very sad.

By Lee

November 21, 2006 02:14 PM | Link to this

Ok Jeff, here’s the thing. If you have a classroom with a normal distribution in ability level, you would expect their grades to correlate to that normal distribution. When you start having anomolies, such as most of the class failing, then I say the problem lies in how the teacher is teaching.

Years ago, as a college freshman, I had a math class in which about 90% of the students were failing and withdrew by drop/add. Yes, I was one of the ones failing. Next quarter, I took the class from a different professor and aced it. Nothing changed except that one professor knew how to teach and the other didn’t. (By the way, the first professor was gone by two quarters.)

By Teacher, Too

November 21, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

I think there is compromise in regards to parent conferences. I always stay late one or two days (in Cobb County at the middle school level, we have one week in October designated as P/T conference week). I also send home a letter well in advance with the conference days and times available. I ask parents to pick three times so I can try to accomodate them. You would be surprised how many forms come back late (several days or a week late) with just one time checked. By then, that time has most likely already been scheduled for a parent who sent the form back within the next day or two.

Compromise is necessary- if I stay late (to 7:00 P.M. sometimes, then I make sure that I leave early on a different day. I think that’s fair.

By the way, I hold conferences all year long, not just during conference week. One thing that does bother me is when a parent shows up unannounced on a Friday afternoon at 4:30. You know, that’s just wrong. Any other day, perhaps, but on Friday afternoon, I am ready to leave school and give myself some well-deserved time off.

By SNY

November 21, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this

Teacher Too,

Yes that would be wrong, but I have had my controller and the President of the company come to my office at 4:22 (I leave at 4:30) and want to hav a meeting about something. It happens to everyone. It’s not fair, but it is life.

EW,

You never told us that it was against school policy to have an after work conference. For me, that takes the responsiblity completely out of your hands. There really is nothing that you can do about that. The next time you run into this situation, you need to explain that it is not your rule, but the schools’ rule and you are obligated to enforce it. I promise you that most reasonable parents will understand. (Remember, I said most reasonable) :)

By Teacher, Too

November 21, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this

SNY- If it was my administrator or school superintendent, then yes, I would stay late. However, do you show up unannounced at your attorney’s office or doctor’s office and expect to be accomodated, without calling or providing any notice? I did stay for forty-five minutes to conference with this parent. However, it would have been respectful of the parent to have, at the very least, called or e-mailed instead of showing up unannounced.

By Jeff

November 21, 2006 05:17 PM | Link to this

Lee:

Let’s take a look: I workked in a HS in Metro ATL. Pass rates hovered around 65 - 70%. Most kids did their work and turned it in, though some did not.

Using VERY similar strategies (even dumbed them down some), I have BARELY a 10% pass rate currently. Here, the kid that consistently turns in his work is the EXCEPTION, not the rule.

However you slice it, that’s culture and individual students, NOT teacher.

By C.R.H.

November 21, 2006 05:50 PM | Link to this

I think the teachers on this blog should be p**…when students arrive unprepared and unmotivated THE TEACHERS are held accountable. I never provided pencils, paper, clothing, meals or anything else to students when I taught…THAT IS THE PARENTS RESPONSIBILITY. They get the tax deduction and they had the kid(s). If you can’t support them, don’t spawn them!

Jim D. doctors are held liable when the make an error, not because the patient wouldn’t do what they should have been doing (taking their meds and the other things I wrote in my blog). Please make sure you read carefully. Doctors can NOT be sued successfully because a patient died of lung cancer after having been warned and advised by the doctor to quit smoking and they refused to quit smoking! However, teachers are held accountable for every student’s failure despite the fact that many of these students can’t or WON”T do what is necessary to be successful. And part of that is the parent’s fault! When new laws are passed making parents AND students just as accountable as the teachers, you’ll start to see some real change…until then, its business as usual!

By Leia

November 21, 2006 05:51 PM | Link to this

We’ve been round and round this topic before on this blog, but, I’m as passionate about my children(biological) as you parents are about yours. That being said - why would I be expected to accomodate parents who want me to work around their schedules because they don’t want to use any leave? I’m a parent too. When I have to, guess what, I take off from work to take care of business! If you show up at my door at the end of the school day unannounced - you may escort me to my car! I am going home to be with my own family, and I have no patience for someone who just thinks that because I’m their child’s teacher - I’m “on duty” 24/7. Like someone said earlier, you wouldn’t just walk into any other professional’s office and demand service without notification.

And, I won’t have a conference after hours either - one of my colleagues was threatened in her trailer, and there was no SRO on duty, and the only administrator was busy on the other side of campus (large campus) and didn’t make it over on the west side until the parent had left. Say what you want about my committment to my students, but, I’m committed to keeping me safe and healthy for my family.

By KA

November 21, 2006 08:12 PM | Link to this

Leia, I am with you. When my kids were in school I always showed up for PT conferences, even when I was in law school and working part time. Teachers deserve normal work days like the rest of us, but they don’t have that luxury. They come early, stay late, and msut show up for after hours admin mandated meetings. The parents who should be showing up for the PT conferences, of course, don’t and no surprise, their kids are the ones who most need them to show up. BUT, I think if even one PT conference helps one student to do better, then the whole PT conference thing is not wasted.

By Joy in teaching

November 22, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this

I just HAVE to comment on this:

I never provided pencils, paper, clothing, meals or anything else to students when I taught…THAT IS THE PARENTS RESPONSIBILITY. They get the tax deduction and they had the kid(s). If you can’t support them, don’t spawn them!

Wow! Children are children. Sometimes they are forgetful and forget to bring materials to class. Sometimes, they deliberately forget to bring materials to class so they have an excuse to misbehave or fail. As an adult in their life, I feel that it is part of my responsibilty to be a parent in abstencia. Yes, it costs me a bit of money. But if it helps a kid get through a rough period in their life, then that is part of my job as their teacher.

When a child shows up in my class without a pencil or pen, I supply them one in exchange for a shoe. (They do get the shoe back when my pencil is returned.) I hand out copy paper when they need paper. I keep peanut butter and crackers in my cabinet for kids who truely need them. (I don’t publicize it…just hand them over in private.) I have a clean stack of t-shirts in varying sizes if needed. If it is a repeat offender, I let the parent know. The vast majority of them appreciate my kindness to their children and my unwillingness to give them an excuse to fail. Some have even donated supplies so that I wouldn’t go broke. I did have one clod, though, who mentioned that their child was getting tired of peanut butter crackers, could I get something else? Go figure.

By Lee

November 22, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this

Jeff, you’ve got a 90% failure rate in your classes?

You want to get to the root of the problem, I suggest first looking in the mirror.

By C.R.H.

November 22, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this

Yes, children are children and parents are parents and teachers are teachers. It is best if everyone knows what their role is. I wasn’t trying to make friends, I had a job to do, and so did the students. I have empathy for students who have a troubled home life, but it was never my job to support someone else’s child. There are kids all over the world who have it much tougher and don’t seem to think anyone owes them anything! The parent that asked for something other than what joyinteaching was providing is the perfect example of no good deed going unpunished.

As for having a 90% failure rate, I have seen worse. But what can be expected if the class is full of students who don’t speak English or have an IQ well below 70. Does anyone really believe these kids can perform at or exceed the state standards in ANT core subject. I think a few other people need to look in the mirror as well! If you have all the answers, I am sure there are plenty of schools that would be willing to hire you.

By teach overseas

November 22, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this

The teachers who go above and beyond the call of duty are to admired and appreciated for the wonderful individuals they are. However, the extra (and free) services they offer are to be appreciated and not expected because we have a “higher calling”. Doctors have a calling too, but they also have office hours.

By Susan

November 23, 2006 08:10 AM | Link to this

I teach in Gwinnett and know that the kind of conference you described takes place often with parents of students who are doing well. The teachers can’t possibly meet with every parent, since one team of 4 teachers probably has about 80-100 kids. It’s a effort to keep parents aware of what the students are doing in the classes and celebrate their learning. Teachers will always be glad to see parents on an individual basis. All they have to do is contact them. I do believe that parents should know that it’s a group that will be meeting ahead of time.

By Susan

November 23, 2006 08:18 AM | Link to this

If you want a conference with just an individual teacher, then ask. The team concept in middle school is that all the teachers collaborate in their planning, meetings, etc. and are there to support your child. This concept is a bridge between the individual teacher that the students have in elementary school to the teachers in high school who don’t interact with the other teachers your child will have at all. This has been the model for middle schools for as long as I’ve been teaching (25+ years). It’s a collaborative support system that prepares students for high school.

By dan

November 28, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

What an interesting Blog. It has desintegrated into some very ugly finger pointing and name calling. I came here to do some research on PTC’s and now have a better understanding of the underlying issues. I have worked as a social worker and consultant in education for 20 years, walked in hundreds of schools and worked with countless parents. There are good and bad, dedicated and neglegtful in both camps. What I do know doesn’t fix anything is the negativity and lack of ownership displayed here. NCLB has introduced incredible expectations that are only going to increase to the imposible. While having these expectations, teachers often get very little support.

It will only be through a partnership that extends through the classroom to capitol hill that education will become what it is supposed to be, and every child will indeed have equal opportunity. So stop all the nasty name calling and start working toward changes that matter.

As far as the original post, regarding the group parent conference. It sounds as though the school did not effecitvely communicate the goals and purpose of the meeting. I would suggest that mom be a partner and communicate that to the principal in a supportive way. Most school personnel are open to feedback.

Why are so many of the parents on this site sitting back and waiting for the school to make the first contact? I suggest to teachers to make contact with parents early in the year. As a parent I call my childrens’ teachers in August, introduce myself and let the teacher know I’m here to help if he or she needs it.