Get Schooled

By JustMe

November 10, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this

I am proud to say that my DeKalb County school in previous years did report every incident. This is why DeKalb County schools looked so “bad” when comparing numbers with other school systems - because we reported everything.

However, this year I have noticed a change. We really don’t report everything. Probably because DeKalb County doesn’t want to look so “dangerous” compared to other schools that do not report.

If you live in DeKalb County or visit a DeKalb County school, they are safe (especially compared to some APS schools). However, the reporting varies a great deal.

By Elane

November 10, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this

I have very mixed feelings on this subject. I’m in my late 40s but vividly recall some of the indignities experienced in middle school. I was just one of those kids people liked to knock around. Being shoved, being threatened, sexual harassment, etc. I’d hate to have to relive any of that, and would not be inclined to seek out the perpetrators for conciliation…BUT… I also don’t sit here thinking “Gee, I wish someone had filed a police report on these kids, put them in jail and had this on their permanent record into adulthood.” I still think of it as “stupid kid stuff.” If there had been a gun or a knife involved, I might have a different opinion. But nowadays, I think there’s too much of a rush to pin adult consequences on typically rash, immature kid behavior. Just MO.

By Hiding

November 10, 2006 11:10 AM | Link to this

Come on Patti! Do you really expect specifics on a blog from an employee?

All right. At our elementary school all the adults—parents, teachers, and administrators have different views. A group of teachers and administrators jointly came up with a behavior modification plan over the summer and when it was “presented” a goodly number of the teachers refused to issue the “points”. Some teacher already are good classroom managers and saw no need, some parents and other administrators thought it was to focused on negative behaviors, some just never liked the persons on the committee and don’t want anything they designed.

We have had some inbound students that we suspect switched (or were encouraged to switch) to our school because they were behavior problems at the home school.

It is a challenge—and I wonder how Justme can feel she knows what is happening at all the Dekalb schools.

By Jeff

November 10, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this

All you gotta do is look at my other posts these last couple of weeks and watch how many get reported (for those few of you who know exactly where I am)….

By jim d

November 10, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

I’m not sure about all schools but I know of one that the school leadership is rather forthcomming with informing parents about what is happening.

In a recent video message posted on the schools website parents were informed that over a 12 day period, in late October early November, 14 students had been expelled for gang activity.

Knowing the principal of this school, I’d venture a guess that these students will have a great deal of difficulty getting re-instated.

I don’t know if all incidents are reported and to be quite honest, I’m not too sure they need be. Anytime thousands of students are crammed into a school and pressure is applied to make them be the best someone else thinks they can be, we will have kids that will do a bit of “pushing.”

Y’all tell me. Are minor infractions really something we as parents should be concerned with?

By Patti Ghezzi

November 10, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

This blog is anonymous! That’s part of its charm. You don’t need to provide identifying details, just the generalities. I’m trying to get a sense of the problem.

By Ernest

November 10, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

Hiding, I believe JustMe can feel comfortable in her comments because their is a consistency with reporting in DeKalb. DeKalb also know that if the slightest thing goes wrong or is perceived improper, it will more than likely appear on the 6:00 news. Unfortunate but I believe true given the scrutiny our school system seems to receive when compared to others in the metro area.

Bottom line, there are no standards in reporting hence the ‘questionable’ reports we saw earlier this summer. While I’m not proud of the numbers, I feel ours accurately reflected what is going on in our schools. If I were in a school system that may have ‘underrreported’ the numbers, I’d be concerned.

By Hiding

November 10, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this

I agree from my vantage point that Dekalb is as honest and forthright as possible given that human nature does make for honestly different interpretations of the relatively minor infractions.

By Nikole

November 10, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

I suggest that someone seriously investigates Atlanta Public Schools about their reported number of incidents. It will not be anywhere close to the reality. My best friend works at an APS school where she says they do not even have an official incident form. I assume that is because they don’t want to report the incidents.

By Teacher

November 10, 2006 01:32 PM | Link to this

There is no way to know how safe or anything else your childs school is by reports, comments, etc. All are made up to look like they need to look. Go to your childs school and hang around for 1/2 a day in the halls. Listen up and pay attention between classes in the hall. You will then know what your childs school is all about and what kind of students attend with them. It is the only way. We have open house (during class time)during the year for a full day. And of course only a few of the best students parents come and stay for any period of time. But the ones that do see what is going on. The week following the first open house we lose a lot of our best students. Thier parents find anyway they can to get them in another school with better students.

By Anonymous

November 10, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

I will give you a different perspective as a parent and advocate of students who are enmeshed in the disciplinary process.

In my county, tens of thousands of “minor infractions” are reported at the schools. What often happens at an individual student level, is a growing number of students (probably many undiagnosed w/a learning or behavioral disability) are compiling huge disciplinary records and are being labeled as “chronic misbehaviors”. Because there is no designation as special education for that student, the school is not really required to provide proven strategies as a preventative measure. The students are then often paneled out into an alternative school. None of these violations are considered “sanctionable” under the NCLB or Unsafe School Option, but your “problem” kids are removed from the home school environment.

I would bet money that for some of the more serious offenses that get reported under the NCLB/Unsafe School Policy - and can get a school sanctioned - there are some loopholes within the letter of the law that can be used so the incidents are not classified as such.

In the end, I believe that the consistency & amount of “writing up”, and interpretation of the rules differs by school and by administrator.

The only thing I know for sure about discipline in our schools -locally, across the state, and our nation - it is applied unevenly across gender and race/ethnicity.

By MA

November 10, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this

“Are minor infractions something a parent needs to be concerned with?” A child throwing a chair is minor — unless it is your child who gets hit with it! I know our school under-reports. Our principal says elementary school students cannot sexually harass or be sexually harassed because they are not old enough to understand sexuality! So if some boy touches your daughter’s chest or some girls send around a note calling her a “tramp” and a lot worse.. It would not be reported because they did not know what they were doing. Are you as a parent okay with that?

By Elane

November 10, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

It just concerns me that whereas some years ago, annoying but non-violent treatment (name-calling, etc.) was handled by the child, the parents, and possibly a school administrator, nowadays, it’s a legal issue. I understand that some kids become victims, and in an earlier post, I described some of the things I encountered as an adolescent. But what I didn’t mention was how I gradually learned to deal with those things myself. The sexual harassment, for example. I was shy; the boys knew it, and they believed they could follow me around and make suggestive comments endlessly because I would do nothing about it. Well, one day this kid named Gary started in on me. He was a little twerp, no taller than my shoulder, and I turned around, held out my arms and said “Oh, Gary, baby, come to mama!” That kid shrieked and ran down the corridor like his feet were on fire. He never bothered me again, and neither did any of his slimeball friends. Kids need to learn how to stand up for themselves. Again, I’m not talking about serious things that would go to court in the adult world, just stupid, annoying, disruptive, rude things kids do to each other until they get their heads and hormones under control. It ties in to the previous article about what constitutes “violence.” Do we want to make kids into criminals when most of the time they’re just going through the learning process?

By Joy in teaching

November 10, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this

This is probably the absolute wrong day for me to respond to this blog on discipline. Normally, I have very good discipline in my classes aside from a little talking which I can deal with.

Today, was different.

After a highly successful morning of kids working on a performance assessment (and having fun with it too, I might add), in came my one 8th grade class. It may have been the longest class I’ve ever attempted to teach in my 19 years of teaching. For the most part, about 2/3 of the class were trying to be respectful and courteous. The other 1/3 had apparently made a pact to disturb class today and be as blatantly obnoxious as only 13 and 14 year olds can be. For 75 minutes, I disciplined 8 students. I summoned the assistant principal to remove three of them (all girls), hoping that this would solve the problem, but the remaining offenders merely took their place.

Ok. Enough of my whining and back to the blog:

While the situation that occured with my 8th grade class today did not merit the calling of police, it did merit some serious dialogue with students and parents on my part. Detention and In School Suspension will also be in due course for some of those students. If anything, the incidences will be recorded by the adminstration as “minor infractions” as no one was injured and no real vandalism was done.

I am troubled by the fact that if the same thing had happened 40 years ago, the students in question would not be able to sit down right now as their rears would be blistered by not only someone at school but their parents when they got home.

By Anonymoua

November 10, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this

You hit the nail on the head.

Instead of learning conflict resolution skills and listening regarding “minor issues” some of our school systems are too busy filling out incident reports and sending kids to ISS.

When my daughter was in elementary school a boy wrote a romantic dreamy note about her. She found out and was mad. Instead of filing a complaint, I sat down with my daughter and told her that she could help herself by coming to me, and her teacher, and by going to her guidance counselor. She did - all on her own.

The issue was resolved, the boy understood the impact of his behavior, and now my daughter knows there are resources she can rely on in addition to herself. The young man was not sent to an alternative school, he grew from the experience and life is good.

I am so happy she learned how to resolve this because sexual harrassment by a teacher to a student is not unrealistic now that she is in high school, and the consequences now of her not knowing how to handle this could be devastating.

She learned that she can handle it herself and no one paid too dear a price as a youngster. Very empowering stuff for a kid.

By Jeff

November 10, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

joy:

Re: Your last sentence:

AMEN!!!!!!! Though that would have happened to me even 5 years ago when I graduated HS!!!!

I have a TON of SST meetings right now - more parents calling everyday - because poor little Johnny or Susie is failing my class. I flat out TOLD the Counselor: “All these are COMPETELY UNNECCESARY and I STRONGLY OBJECT to them as both a waste of my time and an insult to my profession. It’s called: Make sure your kid obeys my rules and does his/ her work. If that’s happening, I GARAUNTEE your child will pass my class… GARAUNTEE!!!!” (My class is tough, but manageable if you’re attempting everything and turning it in. You might not pass by much, but it will be a minimum of 70.0…)

By Lisa B.

November 10, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

My school definitely under-reports violent incidence. The administration feels strongly that the elementary level is too young for most children to be put on law enforcements’ radar. I mostly agree, though we have had a few incidents over the years that were serious enough that the police should have been notified. In one case, a student assaulted and injured a parapro and a female administrator. Prior to that, he had hit his teachers and most felt he could be a danger to other students. Upper administration was adamant that the police not be involved, as this was an elementary student. The middle school isn’t nearly so squeamish about calling the law. We’ve also had a couple of pretty serious sexual harrassment problems, mostly by boys who were way too old for elementary school anyway. In one case, a teacher suggested the parent file charges against a 13-year-old boy who wouldn’t keep his hands off a 9-year-old girl. The school suspended the boy for each infraction, but how was that supposed to help him pass the CRCT and finally get out of our school????? He finally got to the middle school and landed in tribunal the first week. He’s spent most of the last three years in alternative school until he recently wound up in YDC. However, the little elementary kids should never have had to put up with the boy in the first place. He was too big, too old, and too bad for elementary school.

I try to keep parents informed about problems between students in my class. If I don’t tell them, their children certainly do. Still, few incidents are reported to the police, or to the state. Luckily, our school has only a few serious incidents each year. According to the paperwork, we have zero.

By catlady

November 10, 2006 05:25 PM | Link to this

Folks, assault is assault. Terroristic threats are just that. If the incident is something that if, another adult did it to me on the street, the police would be called, it should be taken seriously by the school. The police should be called. At our school we have experienced massive un-reporting and coverups. I think there have been fewer incidents this year of serious misbehavior. It is mostly because we have sent some serious malcreants up to the middle school, and they are trying to deal with them. God help them!

It takes massive blood-letting for Iss or Oss, never mind a student tribunal in our system.

We have about 20 seriously misbehaved students at our school (out of 620) that do 80% of the damage, but we continue to pat them on the head and send them back to class to wreak havoc again and again. Teachers are fed up, and about ready to hire lawyers of their own. What happened to that rule that teachers do not have to continue to have disruptive students in their room??

Our system administration is terrified of lawsuits by parents. And IDEA keeps the fear going by not allowing exclusion of children who are a threat to others “because of their disability” which is interpreted very broadly, at least in our county.

In addition, we are told that the state (is this true, fellow teachers?) is making it harder and harder for children to even be considered/tested for special education, and that more emphasis is being put on “meeting the child’s needs” in a regular classroom. To he!! with the other kids and their needs! So if a 5th grader’s work is “modified” so that he can be successful doing 1st grade work in the 5th grade, we cannot have him considered for testing/placement because he is being successful (4 years below grade level)! What kind of insanity is that? And the regular classroom teacher has to insure his continued “success”, as well as 5 or 6 others like him (we don’t hold anyone back who fails the CRCT) and then the average and above average students too. We are accountable!

If we handled these problems with strength and firmness when they first begin and are mild, we would not have the continued escalation we see.

It just does not seem right to me that we continue to mollycoddle students who interfere with the education of others. If it is handled decisively at first, I think most of our problems would not continue at school. It’s the old “take care of quality of life (broken windows) and you don’t have the fall into panhandling, assault, etc.” Our administration believes we have to “save” the severe consequences till the end of the year, instead of jumping on problems so that they don’t escalate.

Back to the original question: there is serious non-reporting, or else other systems enforce higher expectations than mine does.

By holdingAJCaccountable

November 10, 2006 06:26 PM | Link to this

Is there even any doubt about this? Of course there is SERIOUS underreporting. The lack of support for discipline is the SINGLE biggest flaw in public school education. Student act out because students KNOW they can act out…that’s the “bottom line” reason.

What’s equally important is the “why” and how teachers are retaliated against when trying to enforce discipline.

The way to fix this is to give teachers LEVERAGE. Make part of every administrator’s evalutaion come from teachers in the form of: Administration supports teachers in giving consequences to disruptive students.

Just like the elections have shown us, it’s all about “checks and balances”.

By PattiPleaseConsider

November 10, 2006 06:33 PM | Link to this

Patti,

Have you also considered asking the PSC to go on record as to what actions they will take if a superintendent (or how ever high a discipline report needs to signed off on) FALSIFIES the numbers?

Thanks,

By holdingAJCaccountable

November 10, 2006 06:43 PM | Link to this

Catlady: Given what you say, you may want to consider a MACE membership…

And you are so right about the “quality of life” approach. If the disciplined kids at the beginning of the year, they wouldn’t have problem an the end of the year.

There needs to be a petri dish in every school system central office, with stem cells from a vertebrate… backbone is what’s needed NOT “reform”

By squitoo

November 10, 2006 06:48 PM | Link to this

find solutions to the excessive number of problems you are having with the student. I always found it helpful to at least listen to school personnel, teachers, and parents that have more experience, expertise, and education than i have. I said listen, not necessarily agree with everything they say. I know you really impressed the counselor when you flat out told her your opinion about the SST process. Since you are a new teacher at this school with a bag full of discipline and learning problems in your classroom you need to be asking these people for help instead of showing a know it all attitude. Many new teachers have similar problems. You need to find someone in the school that will support you and be a peer mentor for you. Mayby the staff development representative at your school could provide you with some help. At my school teachers observe in each others classroom and provide each other with helpful feedback and ideas. You seem to be unhappy with the public school situation. Mayby you need to consider other options. There are many good private schools in the area of the state that you are teaching in. There are also a lot of other professions that are more rewarding than teaching.

By Jeff

November 13, 2006 05:32 PM | Link to this

squitoo:

There are ZERO learning problems in my classroom that can not be attributed directly to student misbehavior. Everyone that does as directed is learning and I have the numbers to prove it.

When all parents do is make excuses ,there is nothing I can do to help their child. It comes down to RESPONSIBILITY, which the people in this county - at least some of them - have no concept of (very similar to this county - again, some - lack of an understanding of HONESTY, but that is a different rant)

Also, I’ve done my research, and it turns out that this county runs at least one scam that I can prove. They try to run an IEP meeting and CALL it SST. SST is NOT a legal document, though an IEP is. ANY student can qualify for an SST, for virtually any reason. IEP is ONLY for SpecEd students, and said student must meet certain set in law requirements to qualify as SpecEd. SST meeting produce “recommendations, which are exactly that - RECOMMENDATIONS, NOT requirements!

By holdingAJCaccountable

November 13, 2006 05:50 PM | Link to this

Jeff: If you follow squitoo’s logic, we’d give Barney Fife a gold medal for making Mayberry safe, and Kojak a reprimand for the crime rate. If NOBODY is learning, then it’s you. If those who act disruptive are not learning, it’s because they are making a choice. As they say at MACE, “you can teach a child, but you can’t learn a child”.

Of course that concept seems to be beyond the cognitive abilities of most school systems to understand.

By V for Vendetta

November 14, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

As I always say, I teach at one of the “good” schools.

You wouldn’t believe what gets overlooked here now. You simply wouldn’t believe it. To be frank, this WAS a good area. I grew up in the area I teach in, and what I see let slide at my school disgusts me. I have a kid in my class who announced to me that he had 3 felony charges…

WHY IS THIS KID IN MY SCHOOL? He is written up on a daily basis, but mysteriously he goes nowhere. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that discipline, NOT NCLB, may be the thing killing our public schools faster than anything else.

By squitoo

November 14, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

seem to be the type of teacher who will challenge the system. Wait until you get tenure then you can challenge the system all you want too. These people don’t even have to give a first year teacher a reason for non-renewing their contract. Wish you the best of luck at your new school. I am familiar with the school system you are in. You are in a tough situation.

By teach

November 14, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this

The school I used to work at in dunwoody had a large number of behavioral incidents. However, rather than helping the kids, all the VP wanted to do was prevent the teachers from reporting incidents. So, she created a way to track which teachers reported incidents. Then she created a system of punishments for the teachers if they had too many reports. Thus if you had a class of students who consistently had behavior or emotional issues, you could not write them up because the school didn’t want to look like they had a large number of behavioral incidents. So the teachers were forced to deal with all behaviors in their room. If you had a student who was violent towards other students, you were in a bad situation because if you reported it, then you as the teacher were marked as having classroom management problems. But if you didn’t report it, then the parents of the injured child would call the school to complain. The student would also never get the help they needed because there was no documentation anything had ever happened. Needless to say I got out of that school as soon as possible.

Now I’m in a school that would rather report incidents so that the kids can get help. (many aid services require a serious of documented behavioral incidents in order to provide services) There is a school down the road that refuses to allow any students in that have behavioral issues so they can keep their numbers low. The district does nothing more than send the students with behavior to our school. They pay to bus them here.

I now strongly believe in NCLB because of these types of incidents. Sadly, some school administrators would rather make their numbers look good than provide services for the kids who need them. If they won’t then NCLB allows for the district to get involved. If the district won’t do anything, then the State is required to get involved. If they too refuse to handle the problem, then the Fed’s come in. Many schools don’t need that sort of oversight, but schools like the ones I’ve mentioned above need to know they can’t refuse services to kids just to look good on some report in the newspaper.

By Joy in teaching

November 14, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

Jeff, may I ask what steps you are doing to help lessen the disciplinary problems your students are having? Have you considered placing your repeat offenders on a type of contract such as a Corrective Action Plan? I’d be happy to show you an example of one if you’d care to look at it.

By Jeff

November 14, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this

squitoo:

I’m the type of guy that stands, no matter the consequences. I am a young, single, white male teacher who happens to teach math. They want to get rid of me? Its not like I won’t find another job somewhere else…. As a matter of fact, they already know I’m looking… (Amazing how nice people started getting when they found that out….)

By SET

November 14, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this

teach:

I wish people in your position who see management blocking school incident & crime reporting would complain in writing to the local civil grand jury and the local prosecutors. The names of the complainants are kept secret.

You would really enjoy the look on the administrators faces when they were served with Grand Jury Subpoenas. And if they were caught lying to the Grand Jury about what they have done, you probably wouldn’t have them to kick around any longer.

By EducatorX3

November 14, 2006 05:38 PM | Link to this

Jeff, You say that there are no learning problems in your classroom that cannot be directly connected to behavior problems. I believe that many behavior problems are directly related to learning problems. Knowing the school where you are, I could make some assumptions about prior knowledge. If the kids don’t have a foundation of good skills, they may make the choice to misbehave rather than try to understand what you are trying to teach. This is especially true in 6th grade math right now. Until the GPS is implemented completely, there will continue to be gaps. This means that much of the expected prior knowledge will not be there.

You have also painted some pretty clear pictures of the strategies you employee in your classroom. Numbers don’t always prove that learning is taking place. Keep them so busy learning that they don’t have time to misbehave - and worksheets don’t grow dendrites, so put them away!

Be sure that you are looking at grades and assessment as separate issues. You mentioned in an earlier post about giving credit for having done the work - even if it is not correct. If I do my work but it is all wrong, I get credit for the work; I get a passing grade without having learned the necessary skills. This is giving me a responsibility grade instead of a content knowledge grade. This is how students make it to the next grade without having the required knowledge.

I have watched and read your posts for several months now. Like others, I am concerned about what is happening in your classroom. No classroom should be so out of control that physical restraint of a child is necessary on a regular basis.

You have gotten some wise advice from other posters. If you don’t have a mentor, find one. I think there are several folks on here, myself included, who are willing to help you. You need someone who can help you navigate this journey.

There are many issues of public education that you just don’t have down yet. Some of them should have been a part of your education program; others are simply learned from being in the trenches.

For example, that SST document might not be a legal requirement, but when used correctly, the recommendations should be an ethical responsibility. You are required to show evidence of many strategies and interventions before referring a child for special services. It is your responsibility to each child to try everything in the “bag of tricks” to help them work to their fullest potential. (before anyone jumps on me…I don’t mean to dumb things down but rather to approach teaching and learning in many ways to help students learn materials.) And, in the situation you are in, it is just as important that you show evidence of having done what was asked of you (Yes, within reason) by the administrators or whomever conducts your SST meetings.

You have to admit there is a bit of contridiction in your posts….Your students would learn if they would do what they are being asked to do by their teacher - the wiser, more knowledgeable person in the picture. And yet, you don’t seem to respect the knowledge of those around you who are wiser, more experienced, and more knowledgeable about some of the issues.

Please understand, I know that not all administrators are good; not all parents are wise; not all veteran teachers are knowledgeable. But to consider parent phone calls and SST meetings that should be/are (?) held in the hopes of solving classroom problems to be a waste of time, demonstrates a lack of understanding on your part. We have to make up our minds…do we want the parents to be a part of the process or not? If they want to know why their child is failing, you owe to them to show them…show them your gradebook, but be sure it is a reflection of what the students knows, not how well they follow rules.

The system of SST is not perfect, but rather than avoid it all together, work to make it better.

Oh yes, just so you know, while the college teaching thing may work, know ahead of time how little we are paid at this level. Most of us would make much more money in a K-12 school.

You know how to contact me. If I can be of help, please don’t hesitate to ask.

By holdingAJCaccountable

November 14, 2006 06:28 PM | Link to this

To Jeff: Maybe in addition to the strategies suggested, you should track the biochemical activity of every neuron of every disruptive student. That way you could anticipate every single possible disruptive action, and say/do the perfect thing to make them behave.

Or maybe we could have some discipline in the public schools. What a novel concept! Teachers teach and students learn! You want some real “researh based” ideas? Try this: come up with ANY strategy (SST, behavior contract, counseling, etc.) THEN try allowing the teacher to invoke consequences, and have administration support said consequences, 100 percent, without exception, without fail. See which approach works better. We won’t do the discipline because that would require backbone; and the experts won’t admit it works because they make too much money off the government with their “expertise”…expertise that wouldn’t be needed if we had real support for discipline.

It’s not you Jeff…I’d bet dollars to donuts on that…

By Jeff

November 14, 2006 06:48 PM | Link to this

Ex3: With all due respect ma’am, I’m a FIRM believer that with discipline, ANY obstacle can be overcome. I COMPELTELY REJECT the current notion of “they’ll have discipline after they learn”. As a matter of fact, I find that COMPLETELY backwards, and in fact quite dangerous. An example: Do you want a terrorist learning how to build and detonate a 50 megaton nuclear weapon? NO! Why not? Because they don’t have the DISCIPLINE not to use it! Someone famous, I don’t remember who, once said that knowledge without discipline is the most dangerous thing around.

As far as the SST goes: I’ve said it over and over and I stand behind it: If a student is doing his/ her part, I will do EVERYTHING I POSSIBLY CAN to help them. But if s/he isn’t even turning in the work, I am not going to lift a CELL to help them (much less a finger)! The ONLY reason students are failing my class is missing work. Again, DISCIPLINE.

BTW: I’m working a progressive grading strategy right now, due flat out to my knowledge that they are in no way used to my standards - at least back in July. Yes, 1st nine weeks was very much “Put your name on a sheet of paper and turn it in”. HOWEVER, 2nd nine weeks is “Put your name on a sheet of paper, MAKE SURE ALL THE PROBLEMS HAVE AN ANSWER BESIDE THEM, and turn it in.” 3rd nine weeks - right before CRCT - will be “Mr. Jeff is checking random numbers on each page for accuracy now, so we better make sure we put our name on a sheet of paper, make sure all problems have an answer beside them, AND MAKE SURE THEY ARE CORRECT, and turn it in.”

I think I lost your email addy Ex3, but I have something else to tell you about another strategy we are using that could very well give away where exactly I am, so shoot me an email @ ajc_jeff@yahoo.com please…

By squitoo

November 14, 2006 09:18 PM | Link to this

EducatorX3— You give good advice and seem to have an accruate perception of the situation.

By EducatorX3

November 15, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I will send you an email but I do want to clarify a point.

I think there is a huge difference between discipline and behavior. Discipline, by its very definition, can help overcome many problems. Behavior, by definition, is the reaction to - whether learned or inate - a given situation. It is possible that a student be disciplined in one area only to demonstrate misbehavior in another. It has been my experience, in the middle school classroom, as an administrator, and as a professor, that behaviors demonstrated in stressful situations are not always the natural demeanor of the student.

I am not saying that discipline - the practice of following rules and attending to specific tasks with regularity - is not necessary in the classroom. I am simply saying that many times behavior is a device used to disquise lack of knowledge and has nothing to do with discipline, or lack thereof. (please remember….this is not an absolute - but then again, nothing in education is!)

Have a great day.

By Loves to Read

November 15, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

In my district (Coastal GA) ISS is a joke. It’s a punishment for the teachers to have to write separate lesson plans and gather all the papers, etc. each student will need. Now they have decided to allow kids who are OSS and used to receive zeros the option of coming to Saturday School to make up the work. Please! They say we need to do everything we can to help the kids be “successful.” Makes me sick. Why bother to write them up at all?

By Mom Northside

November 15, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

Be glad you are not in Forsyth County. Whether a child is disciplined or not (or subsequently reported or not) depends on who the student is, what school they at, etc. I think the bigger issue is the way the Forsyth County school system handles discipline. Dangerous discipline issues exist and bullying exists, but the problem seems to emanate from the county’s discipline policies and procedures (or lack thereof).

Some of the Forsyth County schools seem to be good, but some have tremendous problems. The bullying that my child and other children have witnessed in Forsyth County schools is primarily teacher/administration to student bullying, not student to student bullying. There is also some amount of bullying of teachers by other teachers and the administration. The student to student bullying exists, but at some schools seems to be at a level considered “normal” that you’d expect for that age group, but at some schools seem to be plain-out violent. Forsyth County schools look awfully good on paper regarding violence, but discipline is haphazard, so reporting is haphazard also. The real problem with bullying and violence in SOME Forsyth County schools (whether it is teacher to student, student to student, teacher to teacher, administration to teacher) is that NOTHING is done about it. Everything gets swept under the rug here.

Some of the key issues we have with Forsyth County schools are: It seems that students have very little rights. It appears that teachers can be disrespectful, rude, and verbally abusive to students with no negative repercussions. Teachers and administrators are allowed to libel and slander a student with no negative consequences. There is school-wide access to student records and student issues are openly discussed school-wide, which is a violation of a student’s federal educational privacy rights. There appears to be no method or process for parents or students to report and document problems with teachers. There is not a way for a student and/or parent to provide input into or refute a discipline log and students are not allowed to relay their side of a situation. Administrators are not allies and protectors of students. Counselors (although they are highly qualified and seem to care) are stripped of all power to represent or protect students. Punishment for discipline issues and violations are discretionary, arbitrary, inconsistent, and unfairly administered.

I think the fish is rotting from the head down in Forsyth schools. It seems that many abuses of the disciplinary system stem from the discretion given at the school level and the lack of structured, clearly defined policies & procedures at the county level. In a business environment there are explicitly defined rules/infractions for employees and resulting consequences. It is unfair and illegal to unevenly apply employee discipline to disparate employees for the same offense. Students have the same legal rights. Student disciplinary infractions should result in the same consequences no matter who the student is, who the teacher is, who the administrator is, what school they are at, etc. Because the current discipline code is loosely defined and discretionary in nature, it allows for illegal and arbitrary application of discipline procedures. For the same infraction of the rules, some students are shown favoritism and may go unpunished, while the students that do get punished might receive dramatically different consequences and length of punishment for the same infraction.

In our prior school system, when an administrator is told about an alleged rule violation they first conduct an investigation to determine whether the charge has a basis in fact. This investigation might include a verbal interview with the student, interviews with student witnesses, and written statements from teachers, staff, and student witnesses. Based on the investigation, the administrator determines whether there is factual evidence that a rule was violated. A student has input into their side of the situation. There are times when allegations prove to be unfounded, there are times when there are 2 or 3 or more sides to the story, or the investigation ultimately points to discipline issues with another student or teacher. Regardless of the outcome of the investigation and whether the student was in fact in violation of the rule, the student has input and receives the due process mandated by federal and state law.

In our prior school system there are clearly defined discipline violations and associated progressive discipline processes that are very explicitly stated. There are tables that contain the discipline violation and the specific associated consequence for the first offense, second offense, etc. It is not a “laundry list” of options for discipline that the school administration can arbitrarily choose from or ignore entirely. The discipline process is the same across the entire county’s student population. This assures that discipline is evenly and fairly applied across the student body and prevents singling out of students or favoritism.

I think if Forsyth County would fix their discipline system by tightening it up and holding school administrators accountable for its implementation, a lot of the problems in Forsyth County schools might go away or at least get under control. Also cleaning up the discipline process would provide accurate and standardized reporting of discipline/violence issues in the Forsyth school system.

By Joy in teaching

November 15, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Jeff, please tell me that you aren’t serious about you statment of 1st nine weeks was very much “Put your name on a sheet of paper and turn it in”.

I have two sixth grade classes and one thing I do know is that sixth graders must not only be trained to handle the new stresses of middle school (i.e. moving from class to class, having lockers, having numerous teachers), but they must also learn early on that the quality of their work is important as well. For the most part, children of that age (and, yes, they are children) very much want to please the adults in their lives and most will fall into line accordingly. For those who don’t, the teacher may need to use different strategies in order to get the child to understand how and why they must do certain things.

If a child is struggling with learning material in your class, then that child needs to be remediated. Period. Having them mindlessly doing work that they may not understand is only reinforcing the fact that they do not understand the material.

The word “teach” means to to impart knowledge or skill; give instruction. For some children, learning new material requires hours of practice. Additionally, new material needs to be based on prior knowledge in order for it to make sense. Are you actually allowing your students to build upon prior knowledge or are you merely throwing the information out there and expecting them to get it on their own?

This worries me. Also, why are you being so defensive?

By Taxpayer

November 15, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

When did Get Schooled turn into Jeff’s Group Therapy?

By Terry

November 15, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this

Here’s the thing with Forsyth County Schools - we need prevention. The kids do what they do because they know discipline is doled out arbitrarily and haphazardly. We need principals that actually give a damn about the students and not their reputation. And Frankly I am quite sick of some of the school administrators who are so arrogant that they blow the parent off and refuse to communicate. That is a big red flag - especially at Central High School. Central has already seen racial fights and tension. You go in the hallway and you hear kids being completely disrespectful to each other without any guidance from anyone. The kids even think it is funny when a kid is beaten down by another. They don’t care because the administration doesn’t care. When is it going to change? When some frustrated kid brings in a gun and starts shooting? What are we waiting for?

By Terry

November 15, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this

Forstyh County School system has created a system of fear for the teachers and parents. This is because there is little communication between the school and the parents when there is an incident that occurs. Parents get upset when things are not divulged to them by a general communication about incidents. We need to know what schools are having problems, whether the school system wants to divulge it or not. Teachers are frustrated when their principals do not back them up when disciplinary measures are not taken. The behavior problem keeps appearing in their classroom and nothing is done, nothing changes for the teacher nor the rest of the class. This happens in some schools more than others. I am aware of this at Riverwatch and Central High school. This creates a terrible atmosphere for learning. The school administration must be more collaborative with the parents and the teachers. You can’t be too heavy handed or overbearing, nor should the principals be too lax either. It seems to me that there is a lot of favoritism played when it comes to popular kids or even athletes, but I hope I am incorrect in that assumption. The teachers around here at some of these schools need higher pay and support from the parents. Often people drop their kid off at middle school and high school and don’t want to be involved because their kid doesn’t want you involved. That’s too bad, and parents better start being more involved in the middle and the high schools.

By 30year teacher

November 15, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

Taxpayer: This is not Jeff’s group therapy. Please realize when Jeff writes about his problems there may be 10 other new teachers out there reading this blog that are experiencing the same or similar situations. We are happy to comment and advise because it is so important for new teachers to have a sounding board and advice from us old folks. Often anonymity makes it easier for all concerned. These are responses you can certainly choose not to read if it upsets you.

By Taxpayer

November 15, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this

30yearteacher, please be aware that parents are reading this blog, too, and this is one of the few places where we can get straight answers and a variety of perspectives. There is always something new to learn here. I’m not learning anything from Jeff’s posts other than: 1)he probably needs to consider a new career; and 2) I’m very glad that no kid of mine will ever have him for a teacher.

Jeff, you remind me of a high school teacher I had. He was like you — young, white, male (and why that matters, I don’t know, but you described yourself this way). He seemed unable to keep himself from getting down on the same emotional level as the kids he was teaching. Several boys sensed this early on and had great fun disrupting his class on a regular basis. The rest of the class looked forward to this teacher’s responses to the boys’ provocation. The teacher got physical with these boys, threw them out of the class, lost his temper, sent them to the principal — all to no avail. The boys knew they had won because they were able to drag this teacher to their level.

And Jeff, don’t assume that teaching at a community/two-year college is going to be any different for you. It’s not as easy as you might think. There are joint enrollment kids, kids straight out of high school, and plenty of students who have not done well with traditional rules in a traditional classroom. You can throw them out, sure, but the administration will probably make you retain them because the school wants the money.

Good luck, Jeff. You think that because you are a young, white male who teaches math that you will have no trouble finding another job. You are probably right. But if you can’t control your classroom or your emotions, how effective do you think you will be in any classroom with any group, kids or college students?

By Jeff

November 15, 2006 06:23 PM | Link to this

Taxpayer:

Although I will admit that my emotions are EASILY read, that DOES NOT MEAN they are not under control. Often times, the severity of what I am apparently feeling is GROSSLY overinflated. Kids read my mild irritation as “I’m about to beat you down”. (When in fact my mild irritation is more along the lines of JUST STOP ALREADY!) They think that I get angry often, and I can honestly say that I do not. Yes, on this board you see my frustrations, but I DO have what I consider to be successes. I could tell you quite a few stories there. But overall the story of my time in south GA has been one of lack of consequences for anyone other than me. (As in a kid can literally draw blood from me and NOTHING happens, whereas I LOOK at a kid “harshly” and I’m dang near fired. I can honestly say that the ONLY times I have touched a kid have been gentle touch on the shoulder “Go to your seat please” or to stop a fight. Since this topic deals with underreporting, let me admit that I have been guilty of it - because my administration insisted upon it.)

As far as emotionally getting on their level: I have been guilty of that as well. I try to be more fun and goofy with the kids that behave well, and I am learning that while that would have worked with me (and still does), for whatever reason it no longer works with kids. The problem is that I HATE being the ultra-strict, uncaring hard tail.

My success stories, btw? They have almost NOTHING to do with how I’ve been able to teach the kids, and EVERYTHING with how I’ve been able to work with them emotionally and situationally to get them to work through things. I REALLY want to tell y’all about one, but can’t. Maybe after I leave this school (hopefully soon… had another kid draw blood today and NOTHING happened)….

By Taxpayer

November 16, 2006 08:22 AM | Link to this

Are you not the same Jeff who has reported having to put kids in special “holds” in order to subdue them? I’ve been reading this blog for the past couple of years, and I’m sure I recall that you have done much more than give a “gentle touch on the shoulder.” Is this how you stopped fights? How is that kids are “drawing blood” from you? What in the world is going on in your classroom, Jeff?

By Jeff

November 16, 2006 08:38 AM | Link to this

Taxpayer:

ANY time I apply any thing more than a gentle touch on the shoulder, it is to stop a fight. That has been the same for a WHILE now, INCLUDING the past couple of months. And I ALWAYS let them go as soon as they are apparently calmed down - even though they usually go right back to the fighting and I have to reapply a few seconds later.

Granted, when it comes to fights, I have been known to employ any and every technique that I was trained to use. I SWEAR BEFORE EVERYONE THOUGH that I did my ABSOLUTE BEST at ALL times to make sure I applied the techniques properly and safely.

The two times kids have drawn blood: One threw a stapler, admittedly trying to hit the student I was restraining at the time, but it hit me and cut my hand. The other I had put in a wrist control and she reached over with her other hand and clawed me.

What is going on in my classroom? Kids refuse to remain seated because they know there are no consequences - and certainly none that matter to them - for their behavior. I can tell you straight up that if kids would remain in their seats, I would have the “normal” issues, but nothing more than that. EVERY SINGLE TIME I’ve had to put my hand on a kid, it started with the kid out of his/ her seat.

By been there

November 16, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this

Jeff, please don’t take this the wrong way, b/c I’ve been there. I taught school for 1 year south of ATL. It was enough for me. I don’t care if my degree is being “wasted” or not. I had students curse me, throw markers at me, mock me, and refuse to do their work. They didn’t want to be in school and wanted to make it a circus for the few other students in class who did want to learn.

I had no backup from the administration. It was my problem because it was my classroom. I would sit out in my car before school and will myself to walk in there.

After lunch, the students would run down the hall throwing food. It was really bad when they served apples.

You know what? I decided I didn’t have to “cast my pearls before swine.”

I fulfilled my contract (in case I ever wanted to re-enter the field), and then I quit. I went into the business world and I couldn’t be happier. I work with Adults, who respect me.

I was becoming an ugly and bitter person. I started to look bad physically. I stayed sick a lot. I was miserable. I was only 23 when I quit. Maybe in a few more years I will be mature enough to teach High School again, but I am almost afraid to try.

I became a statistic by quitting but I have a much higher quality of life.

By Jeff

November 16, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

been there:

This is going to make quite a few people - probably Taxpayer included - quite happy, but here goes:

For the FIRST time in my life, I am pretty much admitting defeat. I am going to stop doing what I love and learn to love what I am good at. I have a pretty well open acceptance into a Master’s level program in my field, and it can be a distance program even though it is not officially a “online” program. I was just watching the first class video for it and remembered how happy I was back then. (One of my former profs was on there, you just had to know the guy.) I’ve let my fear of a condition I have push me into education, because I tied my success in dealing with it to being in school. But over and over again here in South GA, I have found that because OF this condition, I will never be truly effective in education. Truly, I saw warning signs of it at my former school, but even then I felt it could be dealt with.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have NEVER backed down from a fight, I have NEVER admitted defeat. What is pushing me out of education truly has nothing to do with any of you or what I am experiencing in South GA. Even though I am walking away, even though it LOOKS as though you or the people down here have won, you have not. I simply choose to live in peace, and education is far too much of a battlefield for me on SOOO many levels - yes, often times in my class, including physically.

This is starting to sound too much like a group therapy session though. (I sort things out through writing… sorry!)

So I’m gonna stick my tongue out at all of you and say have a nice day!

sticks his tongue out

“HAVE A NICE DAY!!”

By been there

November 16, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this

Jeff, its not defeat in my book. Let somebody else do it. Bigger and better things are in store for you. You shouldn’t care what people think. My own mother was sad that I quit teaching.

You know what? She calls ME every day and complains about her job—she’s a teacher.

And the sticking your tongue out thing was hopefully a joke.

By Jeff

November 16, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this

Yeah, I decided to be a little silly since I had been so serious.

By Taxpayer

November 16, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I really do wish you the very best, and I hope you find happiness and success in whatever you do. Your “admission of defeat” brings me no pleasure, but then I don’t see that choosing to leave an obviously miserable situation is a defeat. It takes courage to make a big change. You may decide to return to teaching, perhaps a little older and wiser, and in a better setting. Good luck. Be happy.

By lin

November 16, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

Elane, you are right. I am 60 years old, and had a horrible eighth grade year in a new school. It was a very very small country school. (16 students in my class) The cutest boy in junior high took a fancy to me, which made me very unpopular with most of the female population. One morning the teacher was late coming into history class (he was also the principal and school superintendent. I was surrounded by three girls sitting in our seats. They made nasty comments about me which I ignored, but I couldn’t ignore when the girl sitting behind me started to hit me from behind. She hit me twice, and I thought, “if she hits me again, she’s going to get it back.” She did and so did I. By the time the teacher walked in we were all settled back into our seats. I started at this school in December, and this incident happened in February. I was pushed and harassed the rest of the school year by these girls. I did go to the principal and he talked to them which helped lessen the physical contact. I didn’t want to get them in trouble because I knew it would make matters worse with the rest of the class. I had the best grades that year that I ever had. When school started the following September I became best friends with the three girls who had made my life so miserable, and still remain best friends with one. We were THE GROUP for four years. During that eighth grade year,I learned not everyone is going to like me all the time,but there are people that like me most of the time.I learned to be true to myself and my principals. I would never want to put anyone through the torment I went through that year. I learned to always smile and say HI because it may be the only nice thing that happens to someone that day. I learned how much of a weapon the tongue can be, and vowed not to use it to hurt anyone on purpose. I learned all of this when I was 12 years old. I learned to be patient and good things will eventually happen for me. Because, my younger brother told my father about the fight, I learned that he had the power and authority to make my life a lot more miserable than what was going on at school if I ever fought again. Family reputation was very important, and cat fighting wasn’t acceptable behavior.