Get Schooled

By KA

November 3, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

My first child, GT architecture high honor grad kept her HOPE all the way through, but then she is a workaholic. My second child senior at GT in mech. eng. has kept her HOPE also, but as she parties a little more, she has a little lower GPA than her sister. My son lost his HOPE for 2 semesters after he pledged a fraternity, but has it back now. No matter how smart the kid, it’s hard to balance studies and playtime in college, but that is life, and part of the growing up process for these young adults.

By Ernest

November 3, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

Though my oldest is a few years away from graduating HS, I’ve already had a few ‘conversations’ with my wife about this (y’all know how those conversation go :) ). I have a feeling our children’s college experiences will mirror that of Karen’s. I’m concerned that my perception of the overemphasis on ‘self esteem’ and not enough on developing critical thinking skills will come back to ‘bite’ them when they are ready to go to college. Again, it’s up to us parents to help ensure our children have the necessary skills to succeed.

By Traci

November 3, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

As a teacher, I have always made my students aware of the expectations of college. I can’t say that I’ve witnessed an “overemphasis on self esteem” at the high school level. What I have witnessed is tremendous pressure, generally from parents, for teachers to award students no less than a B, regardless of the quality of their work, in order to preserve students’ chances for the HOPE scholarship. Clearly, the problem with that tactic is that by inflating grades, the student may get the HOPE, but probably won’t be able to keep it.

One of the reasons that we are seeing such a push to have more students tackle AP (Advanced Placement) classes is to help prepare them for college. Many of my former students took several AP classes while in high school, which are quite rigorous. Most of those students found their freshman year at college to be easier than the challenge they experienced in AP courses.

The bottom line is that there is no substitute for hard work on the part of students in high school. Hard work and rigor in a high school curriculum may mean that some students earn slightly lower grades, that these students may not qualify for the HOPE initially. But the payoff will be better preparation to cope with the academic demands of college.

By terry baradine

November 3, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this

Most public schools do not adequately prepare students or parents on what to expect at college. They have left that up to the parent to figure out and often it is too late. As early as 8th grade I think parents should have conferences with counselors to make sure your student is on the right track - because if you leave it up to public schools, you often don’t get a conference until senior year and by then it is a bit late.

Also, if your child intends to be college bound you have to give them challenging courses and not take the easy road. My own kid insisted on taking weight training in Freshman year as an elective - but I had to put a stop to that. I would rather him flex his brain muscles than his arm muscles. He can weight train anytime he wants at home. I don’t think it is necessary to push them too hard - you have to find the right level of challenge for each individual student. There is never a one size fits all solution.

By teach overseas

November 3, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

Parents spend so much of their time pushing the kids and pressuring the teachers to get their kids IN to college. There seems to be very little thought as to KEEPING that kid in college.

By Lee

November 3, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

My oldest was a model student. Twelve years of straight A’s, took every A/P and Honors class available, and graduated 4th in her class. Went off to college and met Mr. Reality.

Mr. Reality says I don’t care what you did in High School, this is college. You might have been a top student in your little fish pond, but here, you are being evaluated against the cream of the crop coming out of the private schools and the larger school systems (who have money and students to have a REAL A/P class).

It took my daughter about a semester to get back on track. A couple of years later, we were talking about it, and she told me “Dad, I didn’t know how to study then. I never had to in High School.”

Think about that one for a minute. A kid takes the hardest curriculum her school had to offer and she “didn’t know how to study.”

That is the great falacy of our schools today. Good parents of good students are lulled into thinking that their kids are getting a good education when in reality, the curriculum is so watered down and the emphasis is on trying to get the low students to pass some stupid standardized test, that very little learning takes place.

I did learn one thing, though. I learned enough to pull our youngest out and put her in a good private school. It will be interesting to note how well she does in a couple of years when she goes off to college….

By Ernest

November 3, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

Traci, good point! You perhaps heard my frustration with several ES teachers rather that those in HS. I contend the foundation and expectations set during the ES years will shape both the students and parents.

A follow up to Patti’s question, most on this blog are actively involved with their children and/or those they teach. Who helps those students that may not have that involved advocates? What kind of insight do they get about the college experience?

I tell my kids frequently that the scores from my first 3 tests in college were a 100. Not individually but collectively. I thought I was ‘all that and a bag of chips’ but quickly found out I was not. I share that with my children and their friends with hopes of impressing upon them they will need to buckle down early.

By jim d

November 3, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this

Personally I believe there’s plenty of blame to go around.

When you combine the schools not really teaching a student how to study and a parents inability to convey the importance of learning to apply good time management skills, you have the makings of disaster.

When you have parents that insist schools hand out unearned grades and school management that doesn’t want to ruffle any feathers and be accused of cheating a child out of a Hope Scholarship, you’ve set the children up for certain failure.

And when the state is handing out free money for college educations, without requiring a student to earn and appreciate it, you’ve cheapened the intrinsic value of that education.

Bottom line: it’s our public school systems management, parents and the state combined that has created the mediocre educational system that sets so many children up for failure in college.

By OldSchool

November 3, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this

Neither of my kids were honor graduates from high school although both had respectable GPAs. The oldest went to Berry (graduated on Friday, started classes on Monday and was the only freshman enrolled in classes that summer). She thrived and did very well there. The youngest went to MTSU and graduated with a Recording Industry degree and a 3.8 GPA. Both were so surprised at how much free time they had in college as opposed to high school.

The secret to their success was scheduling and paying close attention to their extra curricular activities. Both did their homework on a regular schedule, dated only one night a weekend, were home EVERY night for supper with the family, were in bed at a reasonable time, and knew both parents were always checking on grades, attitudes, friends, activities, etc. Those skills served them well in college too.

We worked hard to instill a strong work ethic and sense of social responsibility in our kids. We set the example we expected them to follow. They have never disappointed us. Neither “partied” in high school or college but both were very social. Even now they laugh about how foolish others were with the partying.

I’ve seen so many students bomb out of college because they never had to learn to balance the academic and social sides of school. They were either totally under their parents’ thumbs or had no restrictions at all. Too many don’t know the first thing about time management or prioritizing their responsibilities and interests. And too many have to learn the hard way or don’t learn it at all.

By V for Vendetta

November 3, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this

Here are the major contributing factors:

Grade inflation - kids receive BS grades to cover teachers butts because of NCLB

Parents - The work ethic is not communicated to kids at a young age, this is reinforced by the “dumbing-down” of the classwork because of NCLB

HOPE scholarship - Leads to grade inflation so that schools can claim they graduate ridiculous numbers of HOPE scholars. Looks good in the context of NCLB

Partying - uh, yeah right. If you know what you’ve got to do, you can balance fun and school. Heck, there are days I barely remember from college because I was so hung over…

and last but not least…

NCLB - proves that standardizing EVERYTHING is NOT the way to get kids into college, much less get them a good education.

If you want to see evidence of that, look at the stats regarding how many kids lose HOPE in their first two semesters of college. The numbers will blow you away.

By Lee

November 3, 2006 12:18 PM | Link to this

One way to eliminate grade inflation pressure at the high school level is to make HOPE a reimbursement rather than a pay up front scholarship. You could also make it a prorated scale, i.e., 100% for an A, 90% for a B, 80% for a C.

And for those detractors who say “what about those who can’t afford to pay up front?” I say there are enough grants and loans available so that anyone can go to college if they so desire.

As it now stands, a kid can decide to “try the college thing and see how he likes it.” No money out of his pocket. He goes for a year, loses HOPE, and then drops out and joins the “real world.”

By JustMe

November 3, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

As a high school teacher, the issue here is crystal clear…

Parents and high school kids cry and complain about work load. The administrators then turn on the teachers. Eventually teachers stop trying. The end result is that the kids going to college are not prepared.

By meme

November 3, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this

Wow, Terry, you mean that parents are actually expected to contribute to their child’s education. That is totally unthinkable. Some people think that the school should have all the responsibility and all the blame but very little of the praise.

By Stacey

November 3, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

I think there are a lot of reasons kids have problems freshman year. One of the biggest ones is that most of them are not used to being accountable for their own actions. HS teacher gives you an assignment, check to make sure you did it, announce the test, review the information that is going to be covered on the test. One top of that, mom and dad are (usually)there making sure you stay on top of your assignments.

My experience in college was that the instructor handed you a syllabus the first or second day of class and told you to read it and be governed accordingly. That told you your assignments, due dates, exam dates, etc. It is up to you to keep up with due dates and get your assignments in on time.

Another thing is the kids suddenly have “freedom”. Mom’s not there to make sure you get on time. The dean isn’t going to call mom and dad to say “Susie wasn’t in class today”. In most cases, they don’t have a curfew. A lot of kids look at that as proof that they are “grown” and use it as an excuse to be irresponsible.

By Janine

November 3, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

V for Vendetta Absolutely grade inflation is number one. With lack of preparation a close second. When my daughter entered a college pre med path she had graduated from a small, public Dekalb high school that has since closed..because it was small!!!! . There was ability grouping. She and her fellow graduates found college…well known, respected colleges…to be EASIER than their high school classes. At that time, along with ability grouping/college prep diplomas,there was also “another path”…a general diploma. At their reunions, you wouldn’t believe how successful most of them are today…whether in a profession [one of the graduates is our present U.S.Attourney for the southeast…] or in the business world, or in a hands on job]. Of course, this was way before the SELF ESTEEM infusion and the “everyone must be offered an opportunity to succeed” band wagon. It was also before the HOPE….so teachers were not pressured so heavily to avoid giving unearned grades so Johnny will be able to get a HOPE scholarship.

By JustMe

November 3, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this

One more thing….

I regularly tell my high school students that most colleges are difficult and expect you, the student, to perform. I also (from time to time) have previous students of mine return to share their college experiences with my current high school students.

However, the current high school students simply do not believe me or any one else. They have such high “self esteem” that they think college will be a breeze. They complain and complain about the work load in my class (along with their parents complaining).

I often wonder why I do it. I don’t enjoy spending hours upon hours every night grading. Maybe I will become like other teachers and never give work, never teach, give all students As, and just coast. Everyone (adminstrators, students, and parents) will be happy and love me.

By KA

November 3, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

I absolutely think that AP classes are the way to go to prepare for the increased workload of college classes. As my kids went through HS more AP classes were offered, and my son took a bunch and was able to score well enough to get 19 hours of college credit. He’ll graduate a semester early, which helps offset the increased cost of the two semesters he lost the HOPE. My advice to my kids when they went to college was: 1. Go to class 2. Treat the school day like a work day, and if you aren’t in class you should be doing homework, or reading. 3. Have your fun in the evening but no drinking until the weekend. I speak from my experience as a smart kid who cruised through HS with great grades and never learned to study, and my freshman year of college was way too much fun….until the grades came…….

By teach overseas

November 3, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this

JustMe-

I felt exactly the same way when I decided to get the heck out of the States. And I left before NCLB. Come and join the thousands of teachers working in overseas schools. Love the nice, polite kids who love school, their supportive parents, great travel opportunities and make money! I make a great salary (tax free) the school pays for housing, utilities, airfare, shipping and free tution for your kids. I have more planning time, a full time aide (in high school!) Small classes (16 is big). At 10 o’clock the school serves the teachers tea and cookies for a 30 minute break. Yes, you have to be careful- there are more than a few crackpot schools out there— but I have loved my years teaching overseas. I can tell you I lasted three years in public school and I was about to leave. It’s a whole great world there.

Anyone who is interested in doing this— now is the time as schools start recruiting early.

Sorry to get off track there everybody.

By JV

November 3, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this

I teach high school foreign language, and found this discussion free of emotion and generally fair to all parties involved. One other line of thought I’d like to add involves the seeming assumption that the instruction of college professors is somehow superior to that of high school teachers. Think back to the many professors or grad students by whom you were instructed in college who merely presented information in lecture format and expected rote repetition during examinations. Honestly (and doggone it, I mean this) I’d put my varied instruction methodology up against any college professor’s any day. I honestly feel that my students learn the material better, and their grades reflect this.

By KA

November 3, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

JV, My 3 kids went through Gwinnett Co. schools and had wonderful teachers throughout. In HS they were in gifted/honors and AP classes and those teachers all had advanced degrees and training and I would agree with you that they were as competent as most college profs, and maybe more so. But don’t you agree that there are also teachers of lower expertise in our high schools?

By Stacey

November 3, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

I’ve been out of college 15 years and I know things have changed since then, but I think motivation is the reason I succeeded. I was one of those (GASP) who went to college to get an education. I saw that I couldn’t breeze through on “natural smarts” like I did in high school so I had to buckle down and develop study habits. I had to go to class and hear the lectures. 80% of my professors did not use a textbooks so if you missed class, you were pretty much SOL. I learned very quickly to development my own form of shorthand for taking notes and when I got back to my room, I would translate them to something more decipherable. If I needed clarification, I asked.

College isn’t for everyone. Too many people go because that’s what’s expected of them but if they don’t want to be there, they will not put in the effort to succeed. If you choose your college based on whether or not it’s a good party school, you probably won’t succeed. Ditto for sports and Greek life.

By kaa

November 3, 2006 06:01 PM | Link to this

Studying and notetaking is a skill. Learning how to really manage time is a skill. Unfortunately in high school, students are spoon fed knowledge so that they all have the opportunity to succeed. Smart students will always succeed in this environment. Parents need to teach their students REAL study and notetaking skills. There are many resources available in book form and on the internet that can help.

I have adults (25 and older) who are college graduates speak to my classes. All of said that they had to learn how to study, take effective notes and learn time management when they got to college. The adjustment period was different for each, but they all had it.

College is not high school. College is not all about book knowledge. College is also about learning how to deal with nutty professors who seem unreasonable or learning how to decide to study rather than go to a party on Friday.

Our society gets so caught up in students getting into college, but we don’t focus on giving them the SKILLS to stay there. The schools should help; however, I think the responsibility for this really falls on the parents.

By TinaTeach

November 6, 2006 08:22 AM | Link to this

I’d like to talk about the Freshman shock from middle school into high school. Many counties are starting step programs where they either completely isolate these kids until they are ready for high school their 10th grade year and there are others that do it selectively for those that do not pass thier 8th grade year. Many kids expect to still be babied once they hit high school and many don’t seem socially capable of handling the high schoool yet. Then I know of some systems out of state that are switching back from a traditional middle school/highschool programs back to the older jr high (7-9)/high school (10-12) programs. Having had gone to both types of school districts I prefer the latter and not the former as many of the nine graders I see today seem to not exhibit the maturity level needed to deal with a high school atmosphere. I do not agree with the step programs but I wanted to know what everyone else’s thoughts were on this. I don’t think that we should baby these kids in high school if we want to prep them for college but then again many of them don’t seem quite ready in the ninth grade to step up to the plate. Thought?

By TinaTeach

November 6, 2006 08:27 AM | Link to this

I agree with kaa. We do spoon feed kids knowledge. I am in my first year of teaching and the complaint I get from a lot of my students is that I don’t spoon feed them the material but I expect them to go home and apply what they’ve learned to the homework and I expect them to study vocabulary outside of class and learn it outside of class. I offer tutoring in the mornings, afternoons and planning periods yet few avail themselves of it. I don’t expcet these kids to do college level work but I try to tailor a few elements of my class to be more college like. Such as I won’t chase after you if you haven’t done an assignment that was do when you were absent. It’s their responsibilty to come to me to get the assignment.

By KA

November 6, 2006 09:53 AM | Link to this

I think middle or junior high should be eliminated. I went to Catholic School K-8, then 4 year high school. My oldest child (now 24) said that middle school was a black hole in her education, a complete waste of time, and she wished she could have gone on sabbatical in middle school! Let’s get back to academics, and eliminate the touchy feely middle school nonsense.

By lynn d

November 6, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

My college room mate graduated from one of Atlanta’s best private schools —third in her class. I went to a good public school, but before AP courses were widely available. We both struggled through our freshman year.

I am always amazed that people, the media, etc. are surprised that students struggle that first year of college.

If someone really goes away to school, they are living away from home for the first time, totally on their own. They have total control over their life and this is a big challenge for some. (It was for me.) It takes a while to balance the tempetations of freedom with the demands of school.

Many, many students fail to balance, so on top of poor study habits, they don’t make the time to study or do homework so they are doubly doomed.

By Taxpayer

November 6, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this

Many kids have no business in college PERIOD. I have seen hundreds of candidates for vocational or technical training coming through my freshman college classes over the years. They need to be in a different environment altogether, but because Georgia schools don’t promote those alternatives, the kids wind up in classes in which they have no interest. That lack of interest started in high school, so they are often ill-prepared to pass the classes I teach.

There is also a great deal of grade inflation, as mentioned by earlier posters, much of it related to obtaining the HOPE Scholarship. High school teachers think they are doing kids a favor by helping them get the scholarship, or else the teachers are pressured into giving grades that are not earned or deserved. Either way, many students are entering my classes who don’t deserve the scholarship and won’t be able to maintain it after one semester of college courses. What a waste. What a shame.

By JustMe

November 6, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

Taxpayer,

You are oh-so-right! As a high school teacher, I have refused to bow to pressure from parents and administrators for grade inflation. Teachers get pressure from all sides to give all students As.

Students are wise and quickly learn that they don’t have to do any work and they don’t have to learn anything…. and they will still get an A.

If they are lucky, they pass the GHSGT. Then they hit a real course in a real college and fail.

I have in the past refused to bow down to grade inflation or pressure from parents/administrators. I have high expectations for all of my students. However, with every passing year, I feel like I am being worn down like a rock that is continuously weathered from a constant wind and rain. I see that it would be so very easy on me to give in and simply “give” everyone an A.

By Brad

November 6, 2006 12:01 PM | Link to this

Its all about time management and learning how to study. If you were to read the book about Ben Carson called “Gifted Hands” you will see that is the one thing that he learned immediately upon arriving at college. Most students must learn how to study. High school success does not equate to College success. New habits must be learned.

By College Prof

November 6, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

I’ve been doing “Making the Transition” seminars at our college here for a few years along with sessions for parents of incoming students. A lot comes down to explaining how the university model of education differs from the K-12 model.

A lot of students have a very well developed set of expectations about college due to their high school experiences. If these expectations are in line with the reality of college then the students tend to do fine; if not, then they are usually in for some trouble. Unfortunately, we get a lot of students whose expectations are very different than the reality here.

When explaining some of the differences this last summer to a group of students one young woman piped up with a comment somethiing like, “You mean that if I do poorly, you don’t get in trouble?” I told her that while we certainly don’t go out of our way to see students do badly, we aren’t blamed when they do. This was a huge shock to the entire group of about 15 students.

The biggest thing I try to impress on the students is that there is a standard to which they will be held that is determined by someone who is a professional in their field (i.e.-a professional historian, physicist, etc.). If they meet that standard they will be fine, if not then they will receive a poor grade. It doesn’t much matter how hard they work (though there is certainly a correlation there) because we can’t assess that very well.

By Brad

November 6, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

Many of our kids are so used to being the best and at the top of the class, I think that it is a shock to them when they get to college and the are no longer the smartest student in the room. If a student is determined to do well in college he/she will find a way to succeed by adapting to the new circumstance and taking advantage of all the different study opportunities that are available.

By MMM

November 6, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

I remember the transition to college. I expected it to be harder, and it was. What seemed unfair, was that many of the other freshman had already studied material that was not offered for study in my small-town high school. So I see a real value to having something like the virtual courses available for those who are alone in their desire for harder material.

What I did bring with me from my family—more than my town or school, was the expectation that college would require all my effort to survive as a little ill-prepared fish in a very big pond compared with being the only “smart” fish with a bunch of content to live on the farm or go to the coal mine classmates.

It was rough—but after about the first semester, it was the inate ability and work habits that were critical, not the high school content already covered by some of the other freshman. All four years I was always envious of those with more ability than I—-but I also saw many with greater ability crash and burn because they could never make the transition from putting out no effort (which worked fine for them in high school) and putting out effort IN ADDITION to using their ability.

By catlady

November 6, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

My three children, all very bright, good students, found the demands of college very difficult. The two girls had taken very hard classes, worked like maniacs and still had quite a shock in the pace of college. All three children did not really understand what studying is, but thankfully they learned a lot fairly quickly.

By hs sped

November 6, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

I’ve already been talked to about my failure rate. I haven’t been told, nor probably ever will be, to dummy it down. That, however, is what’s implied. What will happen if the rate doesn’t change? Maybe I won’t get offered a contract next spring, who knows? So what do I do? Take a stand and perhaps lose my job? Do what they want and collect a paycheck? It’s not a hard decision, just a lot of compromising of my principles. Every year I try, and every year I end up giving them what they want so they’ll go away.

By Teacher, Too

November 6, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

It is difficult to maintain high expectations for students when parents do want their child to have to do homework or to have to work too hard to earn his/her grade. I teach gifted/blended classes, and my curriculum is rigorous. I know that when I send my middle school students to high school, they will have the work ethic and skills necessary to do well in the AP and gifted classes.

Now, having said that, I am exhausted from kids’ and parents’ whining. I teach public school, but the parents want a private school education without their children having to do the work that goes along with it. To prepare the kids for the more advanced classes, they have to work at home. I cannot teach students my curriculum in a 50 minute class period. There is the expectation that they will have homework and that they will need to study.

Beyond this, as a langauage arts teacher, I I feel extremely pressured since our test scores are so widely publicized. Teachers are accountable to everyone- administrators, parents, NCLB- yet, how do we hold students accountable? When they do get to college, they often don’t succeed because they have not been held accountable for their grades. Is there any wonder they don’t do well?

I think I have finally given up. I am giving serious consideration to a career change- I love teaching, but I can’t see teaching in a system (whichever system that may be) that encourages mediocrity instead of excellence. In a system where parents can whine and complain and get their way because admistrators don’t want to do what’s right, but just want to appease the parent; where students are getting away with a poor work standard because it’s more important for them to play sports, video games, or watch television instead of exercising their brains.

Please excuse this long vent. I am upset as I have always supported public education. However, we are failing the kids by catering to the lowest possible standards- and I don’t care how many public officials spout off about their excellent schools…until we hold every student accountable, and until we get every parent to value the opportunities that education offers, NOTHING WILL EVER CHANGE! (and furthermore, we are not entertainers- I am a professional educator who has worked hard for her degrees. I am not here to compete with television, video games, music videos- etc…I am here to teach language arts: the structure of language, writing skills, and an understanding of literature!)

By Ernest

November 6, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

FWIW Teacher Too, there are many parents that appreciate teachers that have high expectations that would rather their children recieve a B rather than an easy A if rigor was involved. I understand your frustration and hope there are ‘positives’ that will encourage you to stay in the profession. At the end of the day, you’ve got to do what is best for you and your family. Best wishes on your decision!

By KA

November 7, 2006 08:06 AM | Link to this

Election Day! I am off to vote. How is everyone voting for State School Supt today? For status quo with Ms. Cox, taking a risk with the lawyer Majette, or going with a Libertarian with interesting ideas? Despite my Republican leanings I think I am voting for Majette.

By terri

November 7, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this

Every voter from Gwinnett County should go to this blog site before voting on the SPLOST today. http://gcps.blogspot.com/