Get Schooled

By Patti Ghezzi

October 23, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

Some of the responses on the previous thread:

(parentof2) RBoyd: That’s a pretty serious problem—too serious for a blog in my opinion. I’m not a teacher so I can’t give you any advice there. But if you were my sister or my friend asking me for advice, I would say you need to talk with a professional counselor.

I don’t know the details, but it sounds like your daughter has some other serious issues. Total disinterest in school in an otherwise healthy and intelligent middleschool girl is a symptom of a larger problem, as well as a problem in itself.

I would start with the school counselor and ask for her or his help and perhaps for professional counseling and tutoring/testing recommendations. And hurry, time is of the essence.

Justme: First, let me appologize because I am almost certain that this will come off sounding offensive….

Your posting is a GREAT example of what I mean when I say that parents don’t know how to parent. Your child doesn’t do an assignment. Whatever shall I (as the parent) do? Isn’t it the school’s fault? Isn’t it the teacher’s fault? Why won’t they help me (the parent)?

Your child needs a proverbial kick in the rear!!!!! Take away (the likely) many benefits that you are providing your child until they do the assignment on time! Take away the playstation. Take away the cell phone. Take away the TV. Take away the iPod. Take away her allowance.

She needs to understand that she has tangible negative consequences associated with her school failure. She needs to see these consequences immediately.

It is not the school’s job nor the teacher’s job to hover over YOUR child in the evening and force a pencil in their hand until the assignment is complete. That is YOUR job.

YOU should find out the assignments by some reliable method. Then YOU should sit her down as soon as she comes home from school at the kitchen table and NOT let her get up until the work is completed. YOU should check the work to make sure that it is correct or at least not BS.

When she does bring home a good grade, you can then give a positive reinforcement and allow her to have her iPod back.

Janine: I had pretty much the same situation with my son ,albeit quite a few years ago. Luckily it was BEFORE all the balderdash about SELF ESTEEM.His teachers didn’t use quite the abrupt responses to my concerns as your daughter’s teachers did..in fact they seemed to be as very concerned and tried a good many things themselves. His father went so far as to write out note cards with all the multiplication tables on them, then sent him to his room, and would not let him come out until he learned them ..one by one. We also did pretty much what JUSTME suggested..taking away privileges, etc. Finally after umpteen conferences with umpteen teachers, I finally told him that he was on his own. I told his teachers that I would not be attending any more conferences and to address their concerns to my son. They probably thought I was a terrible parent, especially since I was a teacher myself. However it eventually worked and he graduated , went to college and is quite successful today. He often tells the story of our abandonment and how well it worked for him..and us…

30 Year Teacher: While Justme has made some valid points often it is necessary to know just how to implement the ideas. In my school (middle and high school) each child is issued a student organizer at the beginning of the school year. It contains a daily place (like an adult’s daily planner)for students to write the assignments for each class. When our students are not turning in work we require that the student write the assignment and bring it to the teacher daily to be initialed by the teacher. If it has been completed in class we can indicate this and also make comments when necessary. At home it is up to the parent to see that the work is completed and then the parent signs each night as well. This pretty much prevents the student from lying “I did it in class” when it was not done in class and allows the parent a daily report. Because we post tests, reports, etc. at least a week in advance, you will also have notice of due dates here. Please note it is up to THE STUDENT to take the initiative to have the SO book signed by the teacher. Although we do try to remember to do it we frequently have several children involved in this program and kids can slip out of class before we can sign.

Please be aware that this only works if you, the parent,follow up at home. You must have and enforce consequences if your student does not do the work. The school consequences are obvious. The student will fail! I would suggest that you implement a reward system when your daughter does follow the rules and begins to take some responsibility for her school work. Please be aware that nothing breeds success like success and acknowledging each mile stone as she reaches it will usually make a student want to succeed even more.

If your school does not have organizers I have seen them at both Office Depot and Staples. Good luck!

One more thing. As far as knowing formats for book reports, projects, etc.. . Teachers almost always provide information sheets, rubrics and other guidelines to be followed in these instances. Your daughter should have these and if she denies it I would start searching the book bag. Also sit with her and organize her materials. That means a folder or specific section in a 3 ring binder for each class. Also provide a special (I find a clear folder works best) folder which will hold nothing but her completed homework that is to be turned in the next day. In other words by the end of the day this should be empty because all the work has been turned in.

If she does not bring her textbooks home ask the school if you can have a set to keep at home. Our students each have a set of books that stay at home and we have a classroom set to be used at school as well but this is unusual in many districts. However, with a set at home the “I forgot my book” excuse is eliminated.

Again good luck.

Jeff: I’m not one of your child’s teachers, but you sound EERILY like a parent I have to face in yet another meeting that will be a COMPLETE waste of my time next week.

What I would tell you (and my parent if I could):

YOU need to take responsibility for your child’d failure, but more importantly YOU NEED TO MAKE YOUR CHILD TAKE RESPONSIBILTY FOR HIS/HER OWN FAILURE!!

I CAN NOT FORCE YOUR CHILD TO LEARN. I can only present the material as best I know how. It is YOUR CHILD’s responsibility to take the notes and do the work. I DO NOT ACCEPT “But I don’t know how to do it!” if your child has been talking or otherwise not paying atention in class. I further do not accept that statement if no attempt has been made to do the work. I am in the position of having my entire curriculum dictated by the state, and the state has everything up for ANYONE to download. I have neither the time nor obligation to assist your child at any time other than when they are in my class, and honestly, I have a life other than school as well - and I’m a single first year teacher!

OldSchool: RBoyd, has your child been tested (yeah, I know…the T word!) for learning disabilities or perhaps reading ability? Have you checked into Sylvan Learning Centers? They’ve done amazing things for a number of children I’ve known.

Is there a college near you? Maybe you could get with the Psychology and/or Education departments and have them check your child’s abilities (I’m really not saying all this very well but I hope you get my drift.)

Sometimes it’s just a kid being a kid. Middle school is such a challenge because of the physical and emotional growth going on (hormones anyone?) My youngest was terribly anxious all through middle and into high school. She was shy and would get so nervous before big events she became physically ill. We also discovered a slight learning disability with her math skill/understanding and she had major test anxiety. It took a mild medication to even things out for her. Persistence paid off for all of us as she even attended the university of HER CHOICE 8 hours from home in another state, graduated with a 3.8, and has a great job with a major record lable in Nashville.

Stay vigilant and keep trying. And this might stir up a wasp’s nest of anger but maybe a rather humble approach to the teachers would help. I went “hat in hand” to each of her teachers and managed to win over the toughest one by genuinely asking for help and not placing blame. I am not normally a meek person but I can be anything when it comes to getting help for my kids. It works.

Luvs2Teach: RBoyd - is this new this year, or has it been a problem in the past? If it is new, you need to investigate a few things - does your child have new friends? She may have fallen in with a crowd who doesn’t think school is cool, and may be trying to fit in.

On the flip side, have former friends disappeared? Is she alone a lot? Does she no longer talk on the phone? She may be depressed or ostracized at school. Check her arms and legs for evidence of cutting - check her room for tools to do it.

Does she have new habits? I’m not necessarily talking about drinking or drugs, but even things like staying up late on the phone or on the computer. This may be cutting into her homework, and also making her too sleepy in school to pay attention and function.

First, home environment - I would go clean her room, with or without her, but with no warning. My personal children were always told that while I respected their privacy, if I EVER suspected something, I would tear their room apart in a NY minute. I would check her bookbag, purse, gym bag, and pocketstoo. You may find notes written in class (you’d be shocked at some of the things we find out from kids’ confiscated notes - sex, drug use, cutting, bulimia..). You may find missing assignments and directions for projects. you may find lyrics to songs that express how she’s feeling. Hopefully you won’t find anything else. Remove TV, video games, computer and phone if she has her own in her room (I’d leave the stereo). She can earn them back later, and right now, they may be part of the problem.

DON’T BE AFRAID TO DO THIS!

Second - make sure she has a place to study and tools to work. From the teachers (who seem less than helpful, but I’ll get to them later), get homework hotline numbers, websites, and e-mail addresses (BTW - let an administrator know if your e-mail goes unanswered more than 48 hours - that is unacceptable). See if the teachers can provide websites that will offer extra help (since they don’t seem to want to). Someone mentioned an agenda - we use those at our school, too, but the deal is that the child must remember and the parent issues the consequence if they don’t. Find out if your school/teachers post grades online, and if they do, check them at least weekly with your child.

For awhile, you may need to go through the bookbag and check the agenda everynight with your daughter - you can attach a reward or consequence to things as you see fit. Someone’s earlier post had some great ideas about getting her organized - make sure that she does the work - your kjob is simply to monitor that it gets done until she establishes better habits.

Finally, the school - enlist the help of your school counselor - perhaps she can put her on a contract of some sort. No more conferences - it doesn’t seem like they’re helping. However, I do suggest that you take a day off work and shadow her for the entire day (our school allows this, and I love it). You will find it enlightening, I’m sure - realize, of course, that her behavior will be different with you there, but also realize you will see her teachers and her friends. See if the teachers will give you a phone number for her to use if she needs help. Many of my colleagues offer this, and it’s rarely used, but it also takes away the excuse, “I didn’t understand when she talked about it in class.” I tell my kids I’m in the book, and I’m the only one with my name - I’ve had 2 - 3 calls in the last 6 years.

Compare all graded papers with her grades on her progress report. If she is not getting everything back, find out why.

With or without the counselor, work out some sort of plan - when you do this, you get this back. If this occurs then you lose this. Let the teachers know what you are doing, and ask if they will help (signing agenda, or contract). Someone said be humble, which is good advice, but your teachers sound less than helpful - if they say no, then get an administrator involved. Be a squeaky wheel - if most teachers see that you are doing your part, they are willing to help. It’s only when teachers feel that they are asked to be the parent that they get prickly.

Rembmer, it’s your job to monitor - it’s her job to do the work!

Best of luck, and keep us posted.

By OldSchool

October 23, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

I have a student who is always late to class, will not participate in the mandatory reading time (gives me a quiet chance to check the roll and do other little tasks), will not stay on task or ask questions but will visit all over the room with his friends. His mom is a fellow teacher and we’ve discussed the youngster ad nauseum. There are myriad reasons for his behavior but nothing I had tried had worked.

And then today happened. He was late and I caught him in an off limits area. It was time for honesty (“I know you hate this class.” “I understand all your buddies are in here.” “We have 8 more weeks to survive.”) But instead of going ballistic (like I wanted to do) I took him off the drawing board and sat him at an AutoCAD station. An advanced student was assigned to teach him the basics and get him started on some simple drawings. For the first time EVER this term, that kid stayed totally focused and actually accomplished something. My problem is: it’s my largest class and I cannot put everyone on a computer as most are already taken.

But it was a good day anyway.

So, sometimes a total shifting of strategies can work with a problematic student. The rest of the class can just learn to deal with the fact that life isn’t fair…sometimes a squeaky wheel needs a whopping glob of grease and that good guys don’t always win.

Tomorrow may be another story.

By GHJ

October 23, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this

I just have to ask - if this parent can’t handle/control her one child, what does she really expect from the teacher who has upward of 50 students per day? It is the parent’s obligation to make sure her child does her homework, takes the proper notes and meets the appropriate deadlines - not the teacher’s! Teachers are not obligated to maintain websites, accept late work or contact the parents on a daily basis - unless the child is special ed. This mother needs to snatch a knot in Miss Thing’s behind and watch what happens! As many have said already - if she stopped getting calls on her cell phone, had her iPod removed from her ears and had to wear “skips” instead of the new Air Jordans for a little while - I bet Mom would see a 180 degree change. Nobody has to tell me how to get my child in check. I know his “currency” and I know how to use that to my advantage.

By Stacey

October 23, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

I also think this parent should take her daughter to see a counselor to rule out anything serious. I remember middle school as a troubled time for me because of things ranging from my developing body, budding interest in boys, harder course work, etc. When my niece started having problems (around age 14), I thought that she was going through the same things I did (only a little worse). Luckily, my sister followed her gut and sought treatment because we found that my niece has schizophrenia.

If it’s found that the girl simply has decided that she doesn’t want to do the work, I agree with Just Me. Teachers can’t make a child learn. If she were only failing one subject, it may be a matter of changing teachers (which I don’t advocate) but I refuse to believe that all of her teachers are “failing” her. Now is the time for her parents to look at themselves.

By V for Vendetta

October 23, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this

I would have a more positive attitude towards this parent if she posted some of the things SHE is doing to motivate her child. I met with a parent of a student in my class just last week about this very same issue. I asked them some simple questions:

Is he allowed to watch TV? Yes

Is he allowed to hang with friends? Yes

Video Games? Yes

Movies? Yes

And so on and so forth. I said, perhaps taking some of those things away would be a good motivator. She looked at me like I had worms growing out of my head and said, oh I just don’t think he’ll respond to something negative like that.

Well then, I hope he’s good with a shovel, because there are always ditches that need digging…

By b. white

October 23, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this

When a child is disinterested in school work then that child doesn’t see the need for it. At this time in that child’s life school is his/her job. The salary is the grade he/she earns. Down the road what’s going to happen when he/she can’t keep a job? You know as well as I that she/he will live with Momma and Daddy and probably run the show.

By Steve

October 23, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

The parent who wrote this letter really does come off looking bad. As a teacher, I try to take the approach that every parent either wants information or, putting it mildly, an opportunity to vent their frustrations centering on their child’s inability to complete simple tasks. That really is the trick, isn’t it: convincing parents that the work required of the their child is EASY and that with a modicum of effort their child could experience the pleasure of achievement. To this parent, I would say: you can do this with your child. Don’t give in to blaming yourself, the school, the teachers, your child, or anyone else. In 7th grade, it’s not too late to begin helping your child accomplish school tasks and begin to restore your child’s delight in learning. But quit with the excuses: this is your child, not a ward of the state, and you are ultimately going to reap the benefits from focusing your attention on your child. Right now, you are experiencing the anguish of so many parents I see who simply refuse to take the time to work side-by-side with their child.

By MrLiberty

October 23, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

The school system has no interest in “engaging” your child. Your child’s teacher has ultimately no accountability regardless of the educational outcome of your child.

If you wish to solve this problem then HOMESCHOOL!

You engage the child. Its your child and your responsibility.

First, if your child is that much trouble, why should the rest of the class be held back so the teacher can waste their time on your one child. If you want special attention for him/her, pay for it or provide it yourself.

Government schools are there to dumb down and disengage your child. They are about creating subservient, compliant, tax-paying, flag-waving citizens. An engaged child is part of their problem.

By Tracee, Mom of Scot

October 23, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

Hang in there! I have a now 17 yr old son who from kindergarten hated school. While Scot is extremely bright, witty, caring and now very charming he has and still is experiencing the same type of issues your daughter is exhibiting. After being denied the talented and gifted school program -which he was asked to be interviewed for because of his advanced academic abilities!-didn’t accept him because they felt that he was to active (hyper as they would call it) and would not sit still enough to benefit fully from their program! Talk about frustrated. Anyway the only other program available was the special education program which gave him classes with two teachers in it so that if he drifted or started to amuse himself (he liked pencil tapping)the secondary teacher would steer him back. While this does help to some degree, and looking back on 12 years of anquish I wish that I had enrolled him in either a Montessori type school where the learning is a non-traditional setting or Homeschool. And don’t listen to those other folks that want to make this some sort of parent political issue as to who is and who is not a good parent! Each child and each family is different and I believe that you and whatever situation you are in wants the very best for your child! No two children are exactly alike so therefor no one answer will fit each child. Keep talking to her because she probably doesn’t even understand why she is not interested in school and together you will find an answer for her. This is the first semester in 12 years that Scot has not received a failure notice! and I am not even sure why? But I love my son and I know he will find his niche in life with or without college!!

By Jeff

October 23, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

Tracee:

Actually, there IS ONE answer that will work for every child:

If you, as a parent, will actually DISCIPLINE your child, you will make ALL of our lives (yours, your child’s, AND teachers) MUCH easier!

By SET

October 23, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this

I agree with the poster who explained how to look for signs of drug use and related issues. That is a big problem I see in CA. The parents ignore warning signs and fail to act until the kid is entangled int he court system.

I also agree with the suggestions that a full physicial exam at the Drs office is indicated when the childs performance is too far off normal. Then progress into a psychological exam. If the kid is acting too far off normal for his or her age, start looking for trouble early. As they get older it becomes harder to force them into the Drs office - and the problems are more ingrained.

I see a lot of psych problems with young people in the courts here. Much of it drug related (brain damage) - some of it just very bad genetics.

By OldSchool

October 23, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

Many of my behavior problems are students whose parents never learned how to be parents. Lots of girls here at our hs have 2 or more children and they themselves were born to teenage mothers who had no clue as to how true parenting works. It’s a vicious never-ending cycle. These kids have no idea what good and proper behavior because it is not modeled for them at home.

We try to teach them manners and how to behave in various situations but sometimes it’s a losing battle.

I’m not going to lay blame anywhere other than the vague mentions above. I’m just going to continue trying to explain my expectations of behavior and model them for my students. That seems to work okay.

By catlady

October 23, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this

By ParentTryThis...

October 23, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

Walk…no, RUN to your nearest bookstore and check out any parenting books by John Rosemond.

Don’t make it YOUR problem, or the TEACHERS problem…make it the CHILD’S responsibility…I could say more…just read John Rosemond…the BEST I have ever read when it comes to parenting…

By frank123

October 23, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

The child is failing ALL her classes. So it is not just one teacher. I agree with Patti Ghezzi and V. The parent is clearly to blame. It is the parent’s job to deprive the kid of TV, games, play time with friends, parties, and treats until she gets her act together. What an idiot parent!!! It shows the apple did not fall too far from the tree. Daughter is just like Mom - a passive do nothing complainer.

By wwww

October 23, 2006 05:11 PM | Link to this

catlady’s above advice is wonderful. too many teachers on this blog are ready to throw the book at parents/kids. I know, i know, I am a teacher too and i certainly have those moments. We need to remember that this is, in fact, a child. Not an extra small adult.

I think many times when things become too overwhelming and kids feel like they’ll never catch up, they quit. Don’t punish her for a reaction any adult might have. She needs the tools to help her along. A skilled child therapist or pediatrician can help you with the tools you need to help your daughter thrive. I would say you are already going in the right direction by reaching out and asking for help. Good luck to you.

By squitoo

October 23, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

can put a little more effort into helping make sure parents can successfully carry out some of their suggestions. It is easy to say discipline your child but if you have never received appropriate discipline yourself as a child its difficult to disciple your own child appropriately.
How much effort are teachers making to see to it that the disinterested and disengaged student is in the right type of educational program, the right curriculum, right type of instruction. Teachers are the trained professionals not the parents. Parents should be a part of the team but many of them need a lot more help that merely a curt suggestion that they discipline their child at home or kick him in the b—- every twenty-four hours. Many of these parents are doing good just to get Johnny to go too school everyday.

By I_Teach

October 23, 2006 05:24 PM | Link to this

When my son was in 5th grade, he just decided he didn’t need to do the work. He went to the school where I taught, and his teacher was a good friend. She met with me, and I decided to let him twist. His grades dropped to a “C,” and he lost his place on the Safety Patrol (a big deal at the time). He also lost a lot of privileges at home. Within 6 weeks, they were back up to As.

Barring any drug use or physiological problems, Mom needs to let little Precious just hang. Give her enough rope, as they say. She’ll learn quickly!

The hardest thing I have ever had to do is allow my sons to fall on their little faces. If you don’t do well, I can’t force you to-but you will pay the consequences.

Of course, if it was ability-related, that’s a different issue. But apathy or disinterest? Sorry…

Be a parent; make the hard, unpopular decision.

BTW: my son is now a soph. at the University of Alabama…3.0 gpa..holds down a job while he’s in school..and did very,very well in HS taking AP and Honors classes. Tough lessons usually play out well.

By luvs2teach

October 23, 2006 05:40 PM | Link to this

squitoo - my suggestions (and some others) are exactly what the parent needs to do before WE teachers can “see to it that the disinterested and disengaged student is in the right type of educational program, the right curriculum, right type of instruction.” If the kid is on drugs, or dealing with some kind of physical or emotional issue, then it doesn’t matter what type of program we use.

I hate to sound negative, but it’s that attitude of “the teachers should fix this” that causes a lot of problems in schools in the first place. We can’t fix everything - as evidenced by the sorry state some schools are in that try. I may be a “professional educator,” but I am not a certified counselor, MSW, family therapist, or medical doctor.

BTW, maybe you’re not aware of this, but we don’t have that much choice regarding programs, curriculum, or instruction - outside of special ed or gifted. Our curriculum is determined by the state. The programs are usually chosen locally by the school or the district.

This child is a 7th grader, who, from as far as I can tell from the post, was doing well, and now is not. I would have different advice if this were a kindergartner or an older child who had always had problems.

I’ve said it before; I’ll say it again. It’s a three-legged stool - all three legs - parents, teachers, students - have to do their part or the stool will topple.

By SET

October 23, 2006 06:18 PM | Link to this

I agree with Catlady but I just though of something. In this Brave New World we have a lot of blended families where the familiy trees are bushy and obscure.

Simply put, I see many people who know very little about their own extended natal families. For example children with no knowledge of their grandparents - no data on social, educational, medical and vocational histories.

Our probation reports and psych reports for court use are very specific about identifying criminal/psych histories in defendant/respondent’s extended family. If we are trying to understand someone, it’s useful to note institutionialized and suicidal ancestors. If we can get the names of the parents we can go back into government records and find things (regarding the family tree) that the parties swear they never heard of. (Don’t ask, don’t tell??)

Often the mother of the problem child tells us she has no knowledge of the paternal family history. She and the natal father weren’t that close.

Is it important that Sonny is hearing voices at age 12?

When you start having unusual problems with the kids - I’d advise the mother (usually who you are dealing with) to find out as much as possible about family medical/psych histories and give that to the Drs also. Yes it’s important if people are prematurely dead in the family tree. Even if it was an “accident” or a “stale tuna fish sandwich”.

Bi-Polar disorder seems to be an epidemic here. Or at least in the courts. If it’s detected early and managed you can have a home and a career. If it’s not caught, you can wind up with an unpleasant premature death.

By John

October 23, 2006 06:27 PM | Link to this

• Does anyone know how I can get her teachers (and the school administration) to actively partner with me to help me help my totally disengaged, disinterested youngster? Without accountablity for my child’s lack of progress, her teacher seem content to do no more than record her continued failure. -

Send her to private school.

By SET

October 23, 2006 07:05 PM | Link to this

John: Private schools are not running rehab units. They will bounce a special needs kid.

There is a small percentage of kids - maybe not so small - who are impaired. Their disorders are visible by puberty and they get worse without effective treatment.

This presupposes that the kid isn’t just lazy and will respond to an a* whipping. What I’m hearing in this case is maybe more than “just lazy”. What I often see in the courts is psychiatric disturbance (from personality disorders to major mental illness). Impaired people have really bad control of their actions - they get caught all the time. Just plain criminals are capable of planning and show a different pattern of detection.

And many of our psych cases self medicate with alcohol and drugs - or is it the alcohol and drugs that brought out the latent mental illness? It’s a chicken or egg problem. But many of the disturbed people I see clearly had pediatric history of psych disturbance, before they went banannas in late puberty (often with a significant family history to boot).

I am familiar with cases who had apparently normal development and went insane after age 30. We don’t see that pattern much anymore.

I have told parents to get the kid into medical on an urgent basis because they are having too many behaviorial problems that are too extreme to be adjustment issues. They usually ignore the advice. They don’t want to deal with it that way. It’s easier for them to think the kid is just “bad” rather than “mad”. That way it’s the child’s “fault” and not possibly the parent’s genetics.

I can get behind using force to manage a problem child - but in conjunction with a plan to manage the disorders which may include drugs and may include non-family therapists. Just cover all the bases.

By another teacher

October 24, 2006 08:40 AM | Link to this

Remember that six weeks is forever to a middle school student. You can’t make your child wait until the next progress report for punishment or reward.

My son had similar problems in his first year of high school. We made a daily checksheet for him to have signed by his teachers. I know that teachers are busy, so it was brief: (stayed on task y/n; turned in HW y/n; appropriate behavior y/n). It was HIS responsibility to have it signed every day by every teacher. An acceptable report at the end of the week meant he could be on the Internet on the weekend. It worked. He’s now a senior and doing well.

By JustMe

October 24, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

John says….

Send her to private school.

What an idiot! Private schools do not cater to low performing students. Rather, they expel them to public schools. You may possibly find a specialty school willing to take a low performer for a ton of cash, but that would be it.

By JustMe

October 24, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

I want to remind everyone that the bigger picture here is….. most of today’s parents have no clue HOW to parent. This is what’s dragging our schools down - it is not the teachers, it is not the public/private issue, it is not school vouchers, it is not any of those things. Most of our current students do not know right from wrong, have no manners, don’t know how to properly behave, don’t know to follow rules, have no respect for authority, and so on. These are basic things all parents should teach.

Some of today’s parents feel that if they provide material things, then they have done their job. Some of today’s parents feel that if they keep their kid out of jail, then they have done their job.

Until we, as a society, re-educate the parents (or at least the next generation) on HOW to parent, we are doomed.

By EducatorX3

October 24, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

After each comment, I go back and read the original post. Some things have been said that are constructive; many things have been said that just sound angry and defensive (on both sides!) Maybe I am missing something but I think the parent is asking for help in being a better parent. This “blame” game that we seem to be playing will not help the student in any way. And that is what this should be about - helping the student through whatever is causing the behavior.

Yes, the parent needs to take some action. Take her for a check up, have her evaluated for testing, have her talk to a counselor, give her consequences for her behavior, set guidelines for doing homework (a kitchen timer works well….sit at the designated place and work on the assignments without stopping for a specific amount of time), get an agenda and teach her how to use it…all good suggestions.

Yes, the teachers have some responsibility. Standing in front of the classroom and delivering information does not guarantee learning takes place. If there is no learning, there was no teaching. I have no way of knowing what is happening in these classrooms, however, if a student is sitting in my class doing nothing, I will try to get to the root of the problem myself. I may not have choices about what I teach, but I sure have choices about how I teach it. And I can offer choices about how they demonstrate knowledge.

I am wondering, if she is failing all classes, has she been referred to a Student Support Team? I know this is not always the most effective process, but at least then teachers can compare notes and the parent can be a part of the process to find the best strategies for dealing with this situation.

Finally, I just have to say…(1)parents are not keeping their good babies at home and sending us the bad ones. (2)Children do not choose their parents, and they have no way of overcoming bad parenting on their own. (3) There are good teachers; there are bad teachers. Maybe these teachers have tried everything (then tell the parents what you have done!) Maybe these teachers have tried nothing (then Dad, you need to ask for a conference!) (4) None of the things suggested will work effectively if ALL parties are not involved in the process - this means parents, teachers, administrators, and child!

By JustMe

October 24, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this

EducatorX3,

After reading your recent post, I have to totally disagree with you. When I read the initial post/blog topic, the parent is requesting for the teacher and the school to do more. The parent says….

“Does anyone know how I can get her teachers (and the school administration) to actively partner with me to help me help my totally disengaged, disinterested youngster?”

The teacher and the school have already been doing their part. And, the parent is asking for additional help.

What makes a number of posters angry is that the parent is asking for help from the teacher and the school on parenting skills. This is not the role of a teacher of a school (at least not at this time). In fact, teachers are stictly told to NOT discuss such things in parent/teacher conferences. We are to stick to the facts about grades and classroom behavior.

So then, it is parenting skills that is the issue, not education. The fact that his daughter is not completing school assignments seems to be a direct result of the lack of parenting skills and not the result of poor teaching or a poor school. The parent already establishes that his daughter is “normal” in every other aspect - so we have to accept this on his statement.

If your suggestion is that schools should take on the society’s burden of also parenting all of the students, then we have to consider creating new departments inside of every school and hiring tons of parenting experts. However, I would argue that this is not the mission of our schools and I would hate for my tax dollars to be spent in such a manner.

This father, and most parents, need to read up on HOW to be a good parent. Or, at least they should watch reruns of “Father Knows Best” or even “The Andy Griffen Show.”

I am a bit angry on this because I am a teacher with a handful of students that fit this description. I took the initiative to contact parents early on about their students lack of academic interest. The parents gave nothing but lip service to me and the students continue to fail. Eventually, I give up on those students and focus on the ones that apparently want to learn. I cannot be their teacher and their parent.

By JustMe

October 24, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

EducatorX3

You seem to be such an expert, maybe you can help me with a particular student of mine….

He started off very interested in the subject. He is very outspoken and extraverted - almost to the point of being obnoxious. His initial grades were B average but have dropped significantly to an F.

I spoke to his mom and she said that she got him a tutor. I have noticed that since she hired him a tutor, he has shut down in class - going to sleep, drawing pictures, talking to neighbors, etc. I moved him to the front of the room, but there has been no change in his behavior.

When speaking to his mom, we found that he has lied to her on a number of occasions - about his grade, about his behavior, and so on.

I told her that I hate to see parents pay money for a tutor when if he were just to pay attention in class, then he would get all of the information needed. Even when we do a variety of activities, he is barely there. Today, we went over homework and of course he was asleep (yes, I tried to wake him at least 3 times) and didn’t hear anything.

I have tried to speak with him one-on-one, but he tries to BS his answers and jokes around without being serious. He always says that his tutor will help him.

What is your professional advice on this case?

By V for Vendetta

October 24, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

Justme, Don’t fret, there is a whole generation of new parents coming up that should be good. Think about it. Parents that are in their 50’s now were good parents and raised a generation of respectable kids. The current crop of parents (35-45 or so) is pretty terrible. Of course that is not a blanket statement, but their kids seem to be far more problematic than the ones that came before. As the group raised by the older parents (people in their 20’s) matures and has kids, I think you will begin to see those values come back. Not sure if that makes sense, but at least that is what I hope for!

EducatorX3, I know it is hard to judge based on the limited amount we know about the poster, but her situation seems to be a typically annoying one. I disagree that the teachers can do more. Sure there are some teachers that could always do more to help kids, but ultimately the students have to be responsible for their own future. If the kid has a crappy parent, well, I guess we should just hope for the best. I have a kid of my own though, and I can tell you right now, I don’t need to worry about someone else’s (teaching them is hard enough).

You also mention SST’s or IEP’s. Let’s be frank, we both know those are a big pile of steaming crap. Kids can get one of those set up for them based on the most ridiculous suggestions. ADD? Bi-Polar? These things didn’t just manifest themselves overnight.

One of my administrators told me once that over 65% of my school had some sort of IEP for being ADD/ADHD. That’s BS. Statistics alone should tell us that those numbers are impossible. Most kids are no more ADD than the man in the moon. As one who was diagnosed early on, I should know. They wanted me to take ungodly amounts of Ritalin. My parents refused. They said it wasnt a hyper-active thing, it was a responsibility thing, and I could learn to be responsible for my own actions. You wanna take a wild guess who was right on that one?

By Janine

October 24, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

Educator3X @12:20 YOu say if there is no learning, then there was no teaching… When a teacher has a class of 30 students and for 25 of them learning takes place and for 5 of them, for whatever reason[s] learning does not take place,[ or at least at the same level as for the others,] I don’t think you can say that there was no teaching. I think the only thing that can truthfully be said is that these 5 students have some special situation for which the classroom of 30 students and/or the teaching method is not suited. Perhaps it is some learning problem, perhaps just lack of interest and lack of motivation. I really think the reasons for this phenomena are legion, but not all, and maybe not any are the responsibility of the teacher. THe teacher has been successful with the great majority of the class, and if he/she were to focus more than a minimum amount of time and energy on the ones who are not performing , the time is not well spent. The fact that teachers have resposibility for the success of so many students is often overlooked by everyone, administrators and professors included.

By EducatorX3

October 24, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this

JustMe, I understand your frustration. I, too, have been in situations where parents talk a good game and then do nothing! That kind of behavior is worth a vent and then some!

I think I was frustrated for the parent over the comment he quoted from a teacher…“I teach the class every day. What more do you expect me to do? Or, “She did not do the assignment. I do not give make up work. There is nothing more she can do.” While I certainly agree that there are limits to what teachers can be expected to do in relation to parents, I take my responsibility in the classroom to mean that I need to exhaust every possibility when it comes to working with a student. AND it could be that these teachers have already done that with this girl but if this is the case, they need to tell the dad. So, I see your point, as well. And I agree with you that we cannot be their parent, nor can we teach parents how to be good parents. But while they are in my classroom, I can do everything in my bag of tricks to help.

As for your second post, coming from a middle school background, I read the first sentence with sarcasm. I don’t consider myself anymore an expert than the next teacher with experience and education. I have had a good bit of both, however, if I have said something that in anyway sounded condescending, it was certainly not meant that way. So will assume that you are seriously asking for my advice.

What grade level do you teach? What is the subject? My initial response is the same as yours….why pay for a tutor when he has the ability to do the work if he just would. As a parent and teacher, my next concern would be what appears to be a sudden change in behavior and performance. Has this happened in all of his classes? If so, I would offer the same advice as many gave to the Dad in this original blog…get the boy checked out! The lying to his parents is proof that he knows the difference between right and wrong - or he wouldn’t lie about what he was doing. Then, depending on his age, he should have to deal with the logical consequences for his behavior. You sleep in class, you miss instruction, you make bad grades. You make bad grades, you don’t watch TV, talk on the cell phone, go out with friends, get on the computer…etc. If the parents are supportive, and it sounds like they might be, this could work. I would also want to know who the tutor is…an older student? an adult? I’d be glad to give you ideas, if you want to email me. My address is EducatorX3@aol.com.

V… I agree with you. The students should be responsible for their own futures. I also agree that it is hard enough to parent my own without taking on someone else’s to raise. But I have yet to learn how to not worry about them. It is a part of who I am as a person and a teacher.

As for IEPs and SSTs - I know that they are way too often misused, but I believe in the process. I have seen it work. Unfortunately, many schools, admininstrators, etc, don’t use the process as it should be used. I would say that your school may be one of them! Sixty-five percent of your school population is in special ed? For a student to have an IEP, they have to be classified as SPED. They can have a 504 plan or they can be in SST, but an IEP? I agree, those numbers can’t be right!

I won’t debate ADD/ADHD with you. Sounds like you have had your own experience with that….but I will agree that it is another idea that is widely abused. There are kids who need the help, and there are those who are just highly creative and someone (be it teacher or parent) doesn’t recognize the difference. Sad thing is, there are doctors who will just give the meds without have a full psychological profile of the kid!

Whoa…way too long…and it is time to teach!

By SET

October 24, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this

That part above about the problem child passing out in class (It was referred to as falling asleep?) is interesting. Around here that is a marker for narcotics and Rx drug abuse. It can indicate sleep apnea - which is a very serious and treatable medical condition, it can just indicate a poorly supervised child allowed to stay up till 4am watching TV and playing on a computer.

Kids passing out in class should be referred to administration. At some point the parents should be notified in writing and if it persists, medical clearance for the problem should be required prior to the child returning to class. Some parents will not get medical attention for their children until forced to for problems without a lot of blood.

Also, untreated sleep deprivation (regardless of cause) will produce a huge drop in IQ/performance of the patient that will return to the patient’s normal IQ level when the sleep deprivation is removed. If they are yawning and falling asleep toss them out of the classroom. Unless the family is forced to deal with this issue on a priority basis this can go on indefinitely. Sleep deprivation can produce personality changes, aggression and outbursts also.

By EducatorX3

October 24, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

Janine…I agree. I was simply saying that there are teachers - at all levels (way too many of them at the university level!) who believe that standing in front of a classroom and telling students what they know qualifies as teaching.

There are many administrators, and yes, professors, too, who have forgotten(if they ever knew) the tremendous responsbility that is placed on the shoulders of the classroom teachers. I just don’t count myself in that number. I am responsible for the success of my students. I am held accountable for their success in my classroom - and, because of the classes I teach - for their success in their own classrooms. Here’s the kicker for me…if I send a teacher out to a school, and they can’t cut it, my university has to take them back and reteach them!

By Janine

October 24, 2006 07:47 PM | Link to this

Educator3X….Funny you should mention the teacher standing in front of the classroom imparting what he/she knows…I remember well when I was in graduate school..working on my M Ed. I was so upset that most professors classes consisted of assigning a topic to research to students, or a group of students, and having them present what they learned to the class. My college experience at a well known academic school never ever used that method. The professors imparted their knowledge through lectures, experiments, etc. I expected the same in graduate school . I felt that I had paid for the class so that I could learn from the professor what he/she knew, not what other students had researched…for a grade. I was told at the time that Education was the only field in which that happened,….and one professor told me that I should be in an MAT program instead of M Ed. as it was much more rigorous and by far a better way to go.

By luvs2teach

October 24, 2006 08:10 PM | Link to this

Educator3X - I did take issue with your statment “If there is no learning, there was no teaching” - not as a teacher, but as a former student.

I was the disengaged, disinterested student - I went from number one in my class to nearly dropping out.

It had nothing to do with my teachers. I had some great teachers, good teachers, and some average, but nothing any of them had done was going to change what I was going through and how I handled it.

Meanwhile, while I’m having my issues, others in the same class are learning - they went on to be doctors and lawyers and teachers and CPAs, etc, etc - so teaching and learning were occurring - just not by me, and through no fault of my teachers.

And this was in the days of lecturing - something we’re blatantly discouraged to do anymore, anyhow.

The kid has a role in all of this. She is making choices. She’s not clay to be molded. The parents need to be parents - even if it’s hard, even if it means asking for professional help. And, the teachers should be doing their jobs (which I commented on already that they could be more helpful, but we don’t know the entire story, either).

By EducatorX3

October 24, 2006 08:34 PM | Link to this

Janine, I believe that my classes should reflect the concepts I am teaching. If I teach assessment - then I need to model good assessment. If I teach strategies for teaching - then I should demonstrate many different strategies. Yes, there are days when I lecture. But there are also days when I ask my students to demonstrate the application of the information I have delivered. How else would I know if they understand it? Some things just can’t be measured on a pen and paper test.

Research supports the idea that we teach in the way we were taught. You are in a minority if lecture is your preferred learning style. However, I do not disagree with you on paying to learn what the professor knows, not what your classmates have just researched. I felt the same way in a couple of my M.Ed. courses!

It is difficult to find a balance that allows everyone the opportunity to learn and apply what they have learned. What I do is really not much different from what I did in the K-12 schools. I still have to find a way to differentiate the delivery and the assessments to meet the needs of my students. Believe it or not, I have even had to deal with hot-tempered parents. The biggest differences? My administration is there to support me and rarely passes down mandates as to what I am supposed to do. I do have to deal with measures of success - but I am not under the pressure of the CRCT. My kids are a lot bigger and have different issues - well, sometimes they act exactly like my 8th graders used to!

I come here to read about what classroom teachers are saying about issues. My heart breaks when I read about the administration in some of the schools represented here. I have had great experiences as a classroom teacher and as an administrator. It is my wish that I can provide that support for my students and those who offer up their classrooms as labs for them to practice what they have learned.

Thanks for all your insight. It gives me much to think about.

By EducatorX3

October 25, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

Luvs, I didn’t mean to insinuate the no teaching was taking place in this particular classroom - or any classroom - if the majority of the students are learning. It was just a general statement. Unfortunately, there are some classrooms where the teacher/professor/facilitator would tell you that they had “taught” a concept regardless of how much learning had taken place.

If you go back and read my first post, you will see that we agree on many points. Like you said, we don’t know all the facts and can respond only to how we have interpreted the original post. And I really agree with you about the student making choices (assuming that she is simply making a choice to not do the work and there is not something physically or mentally out of whack with the student.)

Have a good one.

By luvs2teach

October 25, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this

EducatorX3 - gotcha! I (like most) tend to filter things through my own experiences, and I remember that, despite good, caring teachers, school had little relevance for me at that point in my life. I guess that’s what annoys me when politicians and educrats want to play the blame game - it’s a complex issue, with no single answer.

By Tracee, Mom of Scot

October 25, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this

Jeff:

No one is saying not to discipline a child. I throughly believe in the “rod of discipline.” But discipline is not black and white. We as parents have a responsiblity to KNOW our child. Poor behavior or attitude is not always a result of bad parenting. Did you forget about the world we are living in? The outside influences that neither YOU or I have complete control over. Do you not know that even a good life can be a hard life? Parenting with a view to cultivating a well rounded, self-confident, respectful, productive and LOVING person does not rest on Discipline. It’s a big picture, no a snap-shot!

By teach overseas

October 26, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

To the writer of this problem-

You have recieved some great advice from many different people here. Especially the ones about getting your child checked out medically and emotionally.

A child who is failing all of their classes is crying out for help. Even disinterested students usually figure out how to do the bare minimum to fly under the radar. There is a reason he/she hates school and it might have nothing to do with academics.

Girls frequently react to problems by withdrawing completely and boys tend to act out aggressivly- and therefore troubled boys tend to get more attention than girls.

I have a hard time believing that you have recieved no help whatsoever from her teachers. You say she knows how to behave herself- well, if the teacher gives her an assignment and she refuses to do it or comply with the teachers requests/commands- your child does not know how to behave in school. If you have had conferences- haven’t the teachers given you some suggestions? Is it that you don’t like the suggestions? Or is it that you have not held up your end of the bargain. There is very little teachers can do without the full support and backing of parents.

Even if somehow, your child has stumbled into the world’s worst school and has all of the world’s worst, uncaring and heartless teachers, it is still your responsibility to get your child on track. If they won’t work with you- well, then you just have to forge on by yourself- because in the end- the only one who really, truly loves and cares for your child is you.

I would be interested in hearing from this parent again to respond to some of these suggestions.