Get Schooled

By madmommy

October 17, 2006 08:34 AM | Link to this

Yes, I would try private school. Where I live in Ga. there are 3 school choices for my childs age. 2 of the 3 did not make ayp. the 1 she attends hasn’t made ayp for 2 yrs. The only 1 that did is 30 miles from our home and though we were offered choice- the transportation was not offered. When we chose we were told Sorry,can’t do it school is too full.

By KA

October 17, 2006 08:40 AM | Link to this

I went to Catholic School K-8 and they were neighborhood schools. My parents chose to send us to parochial school because of their faith and because of the higher standards for education. I chose public schools for my kids, one, because the Catholic schools were more than 20 miles away and because I was happy with the quality of education at our neighborhood schools. My kids have done very well in college, so I know they were well prepared. I think people choose private schools for religious, curriculum, discipline, and social reasons. If tuition were not an issue I think many more people would choose private schools in areas where the public schools are troubled. I think a lot of the value of public school lies in the mix of intellects and social and economic classes. Public schools are mini societies and give the kids a feel for life after school. Private schools are closed societies, bubbles that may or may not prepare students for interaction with people from different backgrounds than theirs.

By baseballmomof5

October 17, 2006 08:43 AM | Link to this

We were in the same situation this year with our oldest getting ready to start middle school. The public middle school that he would have attended did not meet AYP for its second year in a row.. They tried to tell us it was the disabled kids math that ruined it for them, even so their score averages kept dropping every year.. The school is commonly called one of the “ghettos” of Gwinnett county. They offered us three schools within the county and the closest one was 30 miles away.. Their scores weren’t much better either.. We chose to send him to college prep private school. We are not made of money and it has been a sacrifice on our part, but we are happy and he is happy we moved him. His academic needs have been met swiftly and without the red tape it takes the public schools to try to find it’s way through..

That being said our elementary school has been great and our oldest now in Private tells us he was overprepared for middle school by this certain elementary school.. We still have three students there.. Our biggest worry is when the second starts middle school next year, can we have two in private school.??

By Taxpayer

October 17, 2006 08:45 AM | Link to this

We’ve been well served by our neighborhood public schools, so there was no need for us to consider private schools. Your article highlights the need for more parents to do what Sutton parents did, which is what the parents in our neighborhood schools did, too: get involved. If more parents would make an effort to help their neighborhood schools be the best they could possibly be, there would be no need for the costly transfers that are currently overwhelming so many school systems. In DeKalb, NCLB forced “good” schools to accept hundreds of transfers from “bad” schools. The “good” schools became overcrowded while the “bad” schools sat half-empty. Where is the logic in that? The goal should be to improve every school so that all kids can get a great education in their own neighborhood schools.

By Elane

October 17, 2006 09:01 AM | Link to this

Until this year, I never had a problem with public schools. My child is a high school junior. We moved to a new, unfamiliar area, and in the midst of all the millions of things you have to do when you’re settling in, I took for granted that “school was school.” This is the first time I’ve encountered a truly “bad” public school. Not talking about the demographics, though that is certainly the “elephant in the room.” No, it’s the behavior of the administrators and teachers who are supposed to have their act together. The ignorance and apathy defy belief. There are magnet schools in the area, but the waiting list is about 2 years long. Finances prevent the private school option. I am moving my child out of the area to stay with relatives as soon as all the arrangements can be made. It will involve flat-out lying on paper about some things, but in view of what he will face in the current setting, it’s worth it. But it’s an outrage that such lengths have to be gone to. Every public school should have minimum standards, even when there’s a mass exodus by one ethnic group or another. It shouldn’t matter! That’s how I was brought up, the values I learned. Once my child is far away and safe, you can be sure I’ll have a lot to say to a lot of people, in a public arena.

By Kieran36

October 17, 2006 09:04 AM | Link to this

As a kid, I lived in South Dekalb county but I always went to small provate schools. When High School came around, I ended up at Greater Atlanta Christian. While the quality of education was exceptional, there were many things (social) that I knew I could have learned had I gone to a public school. When my parents moved to Alpharetta, they sent my brother to the public schools b/c they felt like he was getting a good education. I think the level of book smarts type of education is equal in alot of Metro schools, its the parental involvment, discipline, and attention that makes certain private schools more appealing to parents. I must also stress that private does not necessarily mean a better education. The small, fundamentalist private schools I attented from K-8 left me ill-prepared for my schooling at GACS and most likely any public high school as well.

By Elane

October 17, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this

Until this year, I never had a problem with public schools. My child is a high school junior. We moved to a new, unfamiliar area, and in the midst of all the millions of things you have to do when you’re settling in, I took for granted that “school was school.” This is the first time I’ve encountered a truly “bad” public school. Not talking about the demographics, though that is certainly the “elephant in the room.” No, it’s the behavior of the administrators and teachers who are supposed to have their act together. The ignorance and apathy defy belief. There are magnet schools in the area, but the waiting list is about 2 years long. Finances prevent the private school option. I am moving my child out of the area to stay with relatives as soon as all the arrangements can be made. It will involve flat-out lying on paper about some things, but in view of what he will face in the current setting, it’s worth it. But it’s an outrage that such lengths have to be gone to. Every public school should have minimum standards, even when there’s a mass exodus by one ethnic group or another. It shouldn’t matter! That’s how I was brought up, the values I learned. Once my child is far away and safe, you can be sure I’ll have a lot to say to a lot of people, in a public arena.

By KA

October 17, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this

So, Elane, what’s worse, the bad new school you moved to, or the poor example you are giving your son when you lie to move him out of the district? Does this mean that your relatives will be supervising him, or are you picking him up at their house each day? What a dilemma! Why not move again to a better school district?

By Stacey

October 17, 2006 09:50 AM | Link to this

Although I’m very happy with my son’s elementary school, unless there’s a drastic change, I intend to send him to private school by the time he reaches middle school. He’s in kindergarten at a new school (this is their second year open) and I’m really pleased. The middle school in our area is on the far opposite end of the spectrum, however. It school failed to meet AYP two years in a row, it old, overcrowded, etc. I’m hoping to have a new middle school by the time he starts (although I’m not confident that’s the answer either). I’m afraid of what Taxpayer pointed out. NCLB is allowing the transfer of kids from “bad” schools to “good” schools. Although I’m not (fundamentally) against that, I’m afraid of the overcrowding (and problems that come with it) being shifted from one school to the next.

By Camille

October 17, 2006 09:57 AM | Link to this

I have considered private school for my oldest son, but only because I have the stereotypical image in my head that private schools are better. However, even if tuition at a private school was waived, I would not transfer my son from the public elementary school that he is currently attending (he’s in 3rd grade). While I do have some issues with the way in which things in general are done in the public school system, I have nothing but praise for the teachers that my son has had to date. They have gone way beyond what I would have expected in an effort to help him with his studies, and parental involvement in this particular school is excellent. I feel that my son is in a place where he is challenged to do his best, and is gaining a valuable education not only book-wise, but socially. So, at this point, I would not move him. However, I have been weighing my options for middle and high school (although I have some time to really think about this).

With regards to my 15 month old, my husband and I just moved him into a private school (versus a regular day care) in September, and we are very pleased. We’ve both noticed a huge difference in him, both socially and intellectually since the move. He’ll be there until 1st grade, at which point we will consider the options available to us dependent upon our circumstances at that time.

By MBW

October 17, 2006 10:05 AM | Link to this

No, I would not send my child to a private school. I am a big believer in school choice, and as such, would consider sending my kid to a high-performing charter school if necessary…but I do not believe that sending my child to a private school would be an appropriate solution for a few reasons:

1) There is no conclusive evidence that private schools out perform public schools

2) I do not want my child to attend a school that is homogenous in any way (race, income, ideology, religion, etc). I believe that diversity in thought and life experience are excellent learning opportunities.

3) As a teacher, I recognize that my own involvement as a parent is the real key. My child will learn and grow in whatever setting he’s in because I know that I will be reinforcing what he’s learning at home. No school, no matter how good, can fully make up for an uninvolved parent.

By Wilson

October 17, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

Amen, MBW! Too many parents want to ship their children away from 8 until 3 (or whatever) every day and place all of the responsibility for their education in someone else’s hands. Active, interested parenting is ABSOLUTELY the key to effectively educating a child, as well as the building of a good public school (as stated by others here).

As for the mention of NCLB standards, why don’t we attack the real issue here and talk about what a heap of poo that entire act is?

School A, you’re underperforming, so I’m cutting your funding and shipping your students away. Then, you will have even fewer resources (both monetary and human) invested in your success, and we can simultaneously put enormous strains on the schools that are doing well! Great!

Hopefully our children are at least getting good abstinence-only sex ed.

By parentof2

October 17, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this

I agree with KA and MBW. So cut and paste their posts here. I just want to add one thing: The absolute bottom line for me is safety. I feel that safety from harm or fear of harm during the school day is the one area that I cannot compensate for with after school enrichment and excellent parenting.

Private schools have more flexibility when it comes to disciplining and expelling children who have violent behavior problems. Every school has a few. But there is a point where a school has so many that all hope is lost. And chaos rules.

I am reasonably happy with my children’s schools right now, though they are not perfect. But for now they are as safe as a school probably can be. If that were to ever change, I would remove my children in a second and pay whatever I have to pay to do so.

By SNY

October 17, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this

MBW,

I understand what you are saying about diversity, but I pulled my child out of private school and put her into public school for that same reason. Guess what, then she was the ONLY black person or minority at all in her class. It defeated my purpose. So, she is back. Plus, I love the religious aspect of it. I know that at this school, the administrators believe exactly what my husband and I believe because we attend the same church, which is also our school. It makes me sleep better at night knowing that my child is being taught by people who have the same moral, work and PLAY ethic that we do. Play is very important and I think that some public schools are forgetting that.

I understand and agree that an involved parent is the best thing to happen to a child but if the school isn’t teaching at, what I consider, grade level then all of the reinforcing that I am doing is for naught anyway.

Elane,

So, it is wrong for a principal to lie about being a “Dr.” but it is okay for you to lie about where your son lives? Is that fair? I don’t think so, but I completely feel for you and understand your predicament. But just because I understand doesn’t mean that I condone it. Please, try to find another way without lying. It is a totally bad example.

By EW

October 17, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

I’m a product of Sutton, back in the day of M to M school busing… It was indeed a blessing, all parents that of students that were bused were involved and were happy to have a choice. That being sad, I’m sad to see that Sutton is experiencing these issues. Parents at Sutton (no matter what ethnicity) have always been involved! Parents getting involved now will pull the school through. I thought about trying to teach at Sutton, when my daughter gets to middle school age, because my options in South Fulton County are very limited. We are getting a new middle school next year, maybe that will help — who knows. I’m considering the option of private school for middle school —- I teach middle school, I know that this is a critical age. I truly dont know what to do.. Let me be clear on one thing however, I’m looking for a GOOD private school - not one that is a just a private school title and is still inadequate. We have some of those as well, concentrating on athletics and in academics it is very questionable.

By lynn d

October 17, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this

Tomorrow, I visit my first private school. I am looking at middle school for one of my children. His older sibling did fine (really thrived) at our neighborhood middle school, but this children is very different and has very different needs. Public school choice wouldn’t really do me any good, because he needs a small environment.

It kills me to do this. In my deepest soul, I am a believer in public school, warts and all.

I worry tremendously about kids stuck in schools and communities where no advocacy goes on. These students are our future — workers and criminals.

By jsmom

October 17, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

So help me out here. We are districted to an ES on the south end of Cobb County. This school has NEVER met AYP or the NCLB standards. The schools that you can be transferred to aren’t much better. The two charter schools that just opened up, we aren’t in their “district” so we have to wait until everyone from the home district has a chance before we can be considered. Private school isn’t an option financially, unless we get some sort of scholarship.

My option right now, as I see it, is to move before my child gets to ES, or wait and see what the building boom in our area brings on. I have no problem with reinforcing what my child is learning at school that day, that is what I signed up for when I chose to become a parent. Do I have to become a helicopter parent? Are there other alternatives that I am not thinking of?

By Theeny

October 17, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

I am a product of private college prep school. I had such an extraordinary positive experience that my parents enrolled the rest of my siblings (I am the oldest of five), there, too. I got so much personalized attention that my former teachers are now my dear friends (I am 35 years old and we still stay in touch). In high school, I took courses that just don’t exist in many public schools. I’m a mom now and I’ve enrolled my son and daughter in a private college preparatory academy, too.

By Wilson

October 17, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

Some good posts here today.

SNY, interesting that you should mention the lack of play time in public schools. Along with numerous other problems, it is directly attributable to No Child Left Behind. In the face of required testing goals, schools spend an increasing portion of instruction time on preparation for standardized tests, primarily in reading and math. This comes at the expense of playtime, but also of arts programs, and even instruction in other, “less important” subjects like history and science (as documented in the AJC and elsewhere). Thus, we are left with a painfully inadequate picture of how much our students are really learning, and the well-rounded student, it seems, is an increasingly rare beast. This is, of course, to say nothing of the widespread cheating that occurs in pursuit of adequate performance.

I don’t mean to beat a dead horse here, but I do think this is a huge issue. I’m certainly no fan of standardized testing, but I recognize that it’s pretty much unavoidable. I do, however, think it’s extremely important to implement testing and interpret the resulting data effectively. The current system is remarkably shortsighted and adopts a strikingly cynical attitude toward the American education system. Again, I don’t mean to sound strident or over-politicze the discussion, but I think that the general lack of outrage (or at least engagement) in response to the inadequacies of NCLB is, quite frankly, disturbing and sad.

By jim d

October 17, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this

MBW,

” do not want my child to attend a school that is homogenous in any way (race, income, ideology, religion, etc). I believe that diversity in thought and life experience are excellent learning opportunities.”

I agree in part. We did remove our child from public school for a couple of his middle school years and I don’t regret doing it. You’ve stated very well Our Reasoning behind placing him back in public school. However, at the time we removed him we where doing what was best for him. (A great deal of thought and logic went into making our choices) Would I do it again? If the situation was the same, Absolutely. But then I believe that middle school years are a couple of wasted years in public schools.

He now attends a public high school that has been able to meet most of his needs and has afforded him opportunities that wouldn’t have existed in the private sector.

Patti, So to kinda answer your question. It would depend on the circumstances and the age of my child. If he were about to enter a middle school that had reached a 200% capacity or that had failed to provide a decent education, was over-ridden with violence or that was unable or unwilling to meet his needs, Hell yes I’d jump ship. But if it were a “Class Act High School” that was able to afford him opportunity and quality education. (plug time) Like Mill Creek High School—-I’d stay.

(another plug) To be quite honest, Jim Markham and his staff have done an exemplary job in setting goals and working towards them. Mill Creek may not be the best high school in the nation yet but Look for it to happen.

By JustMe

October 17, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

Patti, come on. This blog is a set up!

Private schools usually “look better” because they ARE private. This means that the private schools can do things that public schools cannot…..

So of course, when one compares today’s private schools to today’s public schools, it is comparing apples and oranges!

However, if there were a level playing field, would there be a difference? I would say no. Why? Because there would be no isolated island of a school where rich families could send their child. There would be no isolated island of a school where they could exclude students of their choice. All schools would be equal and homogenous - meaning all schools would share in the dysfunctional families, the behavior disorders, etc.

This is why I laugh when people argue for school vouchers. They think that they are arguing for a way to pay for their private school when in fact they are arguing for the definition of today’s “private school” to disappear!

By JustMe

October 17, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

If all things were equal - there would be no “private” and no “public” school. All schools either would or would not be forced to adhere to NCLB.

By jim d

October 17, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

Just me,

Believe it or not——Some of us actually see how vouchers could strengthen public schools. But we’ve blogged that subject to death here.

By Lizzie

October 17, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

My sister and I received public school educations. My children received public and public choice (magnet/charter) educations. My niece and nephew are receiving public and private educations. My two children have since graduated from college - where they both received full scholarships. The biggest difference between public, public choice and private education is, in my opinion, common expectations of behavior, work ethic and achievement. From what I’ve seen, the majority of public schools have more qualified teachers than private schools because of state standards and a higher level of compensation. So, if all parents and faculty members agree on student expectations in a given school, will the students live up to those expectations - both high and low?

By JustMe

October 17, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this

jim d -

If you feel that school vouchers would “bring up” public schools, then with a given mass and by definition, they would “bring down” private schools.

By V for Vendetta

October 17, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this

This is as some others have stated, a bit of a loaded question. Still, I think there are some answers that make perfect sense…

As Jim has said, much of it depends on the situation. If the public school in question has excellent academics and a safe and supportive learning environment, then there is no way I would spend my hard-earned money on a private school. If the public school in question would be better used as a gigantic outhouse, well then I would have to say I would be moving (since I don’t think I could afford private school!).

I think public school can accomplish just as much as private school can. Both “types” of schooling are capable of hitting the mark and educating kids effectively. In the same sense, they are just as capable of blowing it BIG time. (Example: a privately educated girl in my class asked the other day “what happened on 9/11 again? And then said she had no idea that the people responsible were middle-eastern and Muslim. “We only learned about Christian things” she said. Wonderful.)

Jim, totally agree with you about Mill Creek. My personal opinion is that Gwinnett is going to hell in a handbasket, but as long as schools like Mill Creek exist there will be a place for solid education in the county. Say goodbye to the old “good schools”.

By jim d

October 17, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this

just me,

Not really.But then we can blog on about that again when Patti gives us the opportunity.

Till then let’s just agree to disagree.

HAGD

By jim d

October 17, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this

Thanks V,

I’ve been watching everything at MC and I truly believe Markham has the right personel in the right place at the right time to make it the best school in Gwinnett and one of the best schools in the country, regardless of his boss or other politico’s.

By Michael

October 17, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

As I see (and have experienced) it, the main difference between private and public schools is if you are a knucklehead in the former they bounce you out and send you back to the latter. At the latter, if a knucklehead, they have to keep you there until you are at least 16 years old. So you end up with less distractions in private schools since there are fewer knuckleheads. And by knuckleheads I mean the druggies, alchies, lazies, gang-bangers and the litany of others who don’t want to be in school.

By jim d

October 17, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

Michael

You left out they can bounce you out of private schools if you don’t pull the grades too!

By Rod

October 17, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this

This is a stupid question. You said: “If tuition were waived, would you pull your child out of public school and enroll him or her in a private school?”

Um, if there was no tuition and anybody could get in - it would no longer be a private school, but a public one.

Duh.

By Nikki

October 17, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

I went to a small public school system that was literally poor. My parents, however, mandated that I zealously persue an education, and so even in a poor system, I obtained an excellent start and eventually graduated from a prestigious college. It can be done, but it absolutely cannot be done if the child is not safe (at home or at school) and supported by his/her parents.

I believe that a strong public education system is the foundation and lifeblood of democracy. When we start dismantling and disabling public schools, we need to think twice.

By hs sped

October 17, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

Personally, I want mine to go to the neighborhood school. If I decide I no longer like the neighborhood, I will move to a new neighborhood.

By Cletus Snow

October 17, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this

YES, public schools are not able to select the students who desire the best education. Public schools take everyone who enters the door,some of those only wish to disrupt.

By V for Vendetta

October 17, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this

Michael, right on.

If you eliminate the politics and the acceptance of bad behavior from public school, what do you have? PRIVATE SCHOOL! :-)

By Janine

October 17, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

PattiRegarding the scenario you present …no financial barriers, transportation issues,…if this were the case, the exclusivity and the perception of desirablility of private school would be no more. AND if we add no admissions barriers ..and these are quite an issue…[grades, space, etc], there would surely be very little difference in public and private school. That being said, back to your question, I would definitely choose private school. When a child enters school, he/she spends more face to face time with peers than with family, particularly after the first few years. I would prefer that a child be in classes with well behaved, respectful, students who are interested in achieving their best. [I, of course, realize that all are not…but as someone has said, they are not allowed to remain in private schools very long].

By Stacey

October 17, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this

I don’t object to public school as a whole, just certain schools. My elementary school is wonderful but the middle school it feeds into is neither safe nor academically sound. I’ve spoken with neighbors who’s older kids attended the middle school just in the last few years who want to move their younger kids to a diffent school because it’s gone so far downhill.

Because of NCLB, some schools are now “teaching to pass the test” but the kids aren’t really learning much of anything. My sister’s son attended such a school. They recently moved to another county and found that he is almost a full grade level behind because his school was just focusing on the standardized tests. Judging by the test scores of my neighborhood middle school, they aren’t even doing that (or in my opinion anyway).

By Janine

October 17, 2006 01:31 PM | Link to this

Just one more observation….about your scenario, Patti, and about vouchers. If you will look at the scores of the “high achieving” schools that received a large number of the NCLB required transfers from “failing” schools,you will see that their scores fell significantly, and the teachers will tell you that behavior problems were rampant when before they had been rare. So,it seems to me, the vouchers or private schools without restrictive requirements would see the same phenomena.

By thomas

October 17, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this

The big advantage private schools have over public schools is that they don’t have to follow the same rules as public schools. They are not bound and hamstrung by the same constraints and redtape as public schools. They can make up their own rules (aside from breaking the law and discriminating). The expensive tuition locks out the poorest students (usually the most needy and ill prepared).

In all honesty, most private schools are no better than the average public one. This refers to the structure of the school and the actual teaching practices. The teachers aren’t necessarily better trained or experienced. In fact I know many teachers who taught at private schools and now teach (some have retired from) in public schools.

The major advantage is the fact that the student body has been screened and vetted. Most behavior problems and those with severe learning difficuties have been excluded from the mix. If you could operate a public school under those same rules, you would find that students in those schools (particularly those outside the inner city) would perform on par with the AVERAGE private school.

By GOB

October 17, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

This is why I laugh when people argue for school vouchers. They think that they are arguing for a way to pay for their private school when in fact they are arguing for the definition of today’s “private school” to disappear!

The reality is that nothing would change. Private schools would simply raise tuition to a point that the voucher was meaningless. The real result would be nothing more than private schools making a lot more money. And as mentioned already, just because a person has the ability to pay for private school, the private school is under no obligation to take them.

By Patti Ghezzi

October 17, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this

Hi all, thanks for the good comments. In my scenario, I’m asking if you - just you - were given a fee waiver to Westminster, Pace, Lovett, Galloway, Holy Innocents, Greater Atlanta Christian etc. etc. It’s still a private school, with most everyone else spending well in excess of ten grand a year. Your kid is currently in public school. Just a hypothetical. Would you take it?

I ask because in reporting my story on Sutton Middle School I met families who could afford private schools and had children the private schools would gladly accept and still chose Sutton. They said they “believe in public schools.”

Some readers, colleagues and friends have wondered aloud what exactly that means… “believe in public schools.”

So I’m just asking as a hypothetical… would your belief in public schools be so strong that you would pass up Westminster/Lovett/Pace?

By Michael

October 17, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

The private Christian (fascist baptist) high school I attended as a child (outside of D.C.) had inferior teachers and classes as compared to the 3,000 student high school down the street. But if you smoked weed, drank on the weekend, listened to rock music in your car, or mouthed off too much you magically disappeared from class. In the summer before my senior year there was this “party” and my junior class of 120 was only 53 students come August.

I went to an inferior Christian school because my mother feared the public schools where my older brothers and sisters followed their friends and ended up smoking pot, getting caught shoplifting, drinking too much (18 was legal then) but somehow managed to avoid teen pregnancy. I realized in college that all the time I had spent memorizing bible verses was mostly wasted, except of course, that I had managed to avoid becoming a pothead, shoplifter, alcoholic or teenage father. Maybe there’s a connection, maybe not, but I am the last and only one of six kids to get a bachelor’s degree and I somehow managed to get a law degree from that football school in Athens.

By decaturparent

October 17, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

Nope, we pay about $8000 in property taxes, so we will be doing public so long as NCLB doesn’t ruin it. So far our system has been able to still teach kids to actually think despite NCLB.

I don’t see it ever happening, but if we ever ended up in a situation in my system where they were getting into Direct Instruction or some garbage like that, we would do whatever it takes to get them out of our system - I am talking within days… not weeks.

It all just depends… so long as my kids are challenged, moral and happy and are learning things that they really need to know in life (bubbling tests is not one of those things), I don’t care if they go to school with a bunch of zebras.

By jim d

October 17, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this

YEP!

Given my childs current situation I’d pass.

By jim d

October 17, 2006 02:29 PM | Link to this

Patti,

I really think many of your readers could afford to have their children in private schools. They have chosen not to for various reasons.

Personally, I believe a well rounded education teaches students to get along and work with people from all walks of life. That a lesson that is not available at most private schools.At least the ones I have first hand knowledge of.

By EW

October 17, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this

Patti,

Good question — however we must understand that those schools listed are not free from public school issues… Yes, I went to Sutton and Northside where parents definitely had the options for the schools mentioned, however these were such good schools at that time they stuck with public school. I had a friend, who was given a scholarship to Lovett, he had a real hard time at first adjusting to the lavish lifestyles of students, their spoiled and bratty ways, because see in his home, his mother didn’t play that. So that student must be able to adjust and relate to that environment and the reality environment in which they might come from. This was the late 80’s he came from a single parent home, and he was black — alot to adjust to and still today it will be an adjustment. If I had the opportunity to send my child I would just with very intense supervision, and several reality checks….

By decaturparent

October 17, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this

All things equal.. would I take Pace, Westminster, etc???? Well, probably yes… (shame - face hiding under desk)… except that all of those schools are really far from where we live so you would have to also move the schools to our area.

I wouldn’t want my kids having to drive that far to get to school when our neighborhood schools are really good.

By lovelyliz

October 17, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this

Because my brother-in-law’s parents pay tuition, my niece attends a private Christian school. I can’t tell you what all of their policies are, because the administration keeps that info to themselves, but here are some interesting things:

This particular school does fairly well with discipline although they have no tolerance for dealing with any student who has any problems. One shot and you are out which is fine if your child has an above average intellect and is well mannered. Like other private schools, it does well primarily by weeding out children. With all the paranoia about public education, some of which is deserved, there is no shortage of applicants. The academics are fine if you choose to believe that humans lived with the dinosaurs during the last 7000 years and fossils came from Noah’s time. I could go on about all the non-tuition related fees that have to be paid.

The thing to remember about private schools is that they can discriminate for any reason and they are free to kick any student. You and your children have to tow the line whatever the school decides that line to be.

By suttongrad

October 17, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this

I went to Sutton (about 10 years ago), and then North Atlanta. I feel that I’ve been reading some version of this article, every year or two, in the AJC for the past 10 years. The parents who need to prove to themselves and others that Sutton is just as good as private schools seem to be to very insecure and “protesting too much”. Who cares what other people think or where other people send their kids, if you think it’s a good school? They are either nervous about being seen as “not as good” or not living up to their neighbors, or in contrast want to be seen as nobler than their neighbors for not giving up and investing in public schools. Well, in my experience, Sutton and North Atlanta, at least when I attended, had some good aspects and some bad aspects - great arts programs on the one hand, woefully inadequate science classes on the other, fine English classes, terrible college counseling, etc. Certainly the schools could both have been much improved, but I always wondered if all the energy these types of parents were wasting on PR could have been better used actually trying to improve the schools (truly good schools don’t need PR). Nevertheless, overall I think attending these schools gave me a more realistic picture of the world than a fancy private school would have (and I’m glad, since I went to a fancy private college which I loved but which was definitely not “reality”, so I’m glad I don’t think that’s all there is). And in the end, any education is what you make of it and after a certain point, no one cares where you went to middle school! But what I do think was missing from my school experience was a sense of community and growing up with the same kids K-12, because at every step more kids were splintering off to private schools and more new kids were transferring in. For giving kids a sense of roots and community, there is value to having true “neighborhood schools”. At the same time, too often talk of “neighborhood schools” etc. is actually just veiled xenophobia (i.e. if we get enough white kids from Buckhead into the school they’ll have to turn away the black and Latino kids and then it’ll be just like private school - but free! never mind where the black and Latino kids will end up, b/c they’re not my kids and they don’t live in my neighborhood.)

By lovelyliz

October 17, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

My niece’s best friend at (private) school was having academic problems. Her family moved and she’s now getting better grades at the decent public school she’s attending.

Private school can be great for some, but if assistance like tuition vouchers, the kind that would cover 100% of the student’s school cost which has not yet been proposed, were to ever be enacted, a lot of parents would be in for a shock when they found that some of their children just aren’t good enough to get into the few slots available.

By wd

October 17, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

I will go with private school every time for several reasons.

First, politicians have no business having any control over education. I don’t care which party is in power - George Bush, Bill/Hillary Clinton, Sonny Purdue, and Mark Taylor are all just about as qualified to make education decisions as SpongeBob SquarePants. Until you get the politics out of public education, it will never be truly great.

Also, all these arguments about diversity are a load of bull. I went to a private school, and many of the subjects that we discussed in class would have resulted in lawsuits by the nutjobs at the ACLU. I was presented with many diverse opinions and taught how to actually think and make decisions for myself instead of being brainwashed by today’s government controlled education.

By Eric

October 17, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

In this hypothetical situation of COURSE I would send my child to private school.

I don’t see where there is even a choice to be made here. I want the best for my child - why would I want them NOT to aim for attending a top-notch university? I would certainly prefer my child to attend Vanderbilt, Duke, Princeton, Northwestern, Stanford, or Harvard verus Georgia Southern, Kennesaw State, or Southern Poly. No offense to the fine public universities of this state, but a child’s chance to attend an upper-tier university are much greater if that child matriculates from a private school.

By Kage

October 17, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this

Interesting timing for this topic.

Last night my mom and I were talking about whether or not I think my 12 years of Catholic school were worth it. I quickly said yes - I feel I received a superior education. As to whether or not I would send my (hypothetical) kids to our Catholic school, I wasn’t sure. I teach in a public school and I am continually amazed by the quality of the teachers here.

Today is parent conference day. I just finished a conference with a parent whose child is new to our school. She had previously been enrolled in a private school. She is struggling a bit in my math class. The dad told me that she has never had to do the kind of critical thinking that she is now required to do. In her old school, there was always one answer and a formula to get there. He said he feels much better about the education she’s getting in our public school because she is being taught to think critically, to solve problems, and to defend her answers.

By Patti Ghezzi

October 17, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

“…but a child’s chance to attend an upper-tier university are much greater if that child matriculates from a private school.”

Hmmmmm… Eric, I don’t know that this is true. The competition to get into elite universities is stiff, and with private school kids, so many of them are “tied” at the top. Universities seeking diversity must say no to many qualified kids from private schools and the top public schools. A bright and motivated kid might have a better chance at Vanderbilt coming from a public high school where few of his or her classmates are also seeking Vanderbilt.

Just a thought… Anybody else have knowledge of the admissions process that would speak to this?

By jim d

October 17, 2006 05:13 PM | Link to this

Patti,

Admissions to UGA may soon ease—-they need to field a winning team.

By John

October 17, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

YES! I would pull my child out of PS in a heart beat. PS-no vales, anything goes witht the kids, limited discipline, uninvolved parents, teachers lecturing rather than teaching, layer curriculum for high acheivers and the rest just encouraged to do enough to get by, overcrowded, unbalanced curriculum toward humanism and secularism, favoritism i.e.gifted/impact program, need i go on…

By lynn d

October 17, 2006 05:36 PM | Link to this

Patti and Eric

There was just an article in the WSJ that talked about this. Many NorthEast parents are using public schools because the private schools seem to offer no advantage to admission to most Ivys than public schools. Can’t link to the article, because WSJ is subscription based online.

I think that the top colleges (Harvard, Yale, etc) look for diversity but first serve legacies and other members of the elite.

I also think that the most competitive colleges won’t take more than 1 or 2 students from any one school, so if 1/2 the class is gunning for Harvard, it makes it harder.

Last year, I checked out the list of where private school graduates were going, from many of Atlanta’s top private schools, and the lists were nothing spectacular. Two years ago, Dunwoody’s list put many of the private schools list to shame.

This is not meant to offend anyone, but why would you send your child to Westminster for 13 years and then have them go to Ole Miss? They probably could have gotten in there from any old public school around. It just boggles my mind.

I have also heard that it is harder to get into Georgia from some of Atlanta’s private schools then the public schools, because of the # of AP courses offered by the public school and taken by students.

By catlady

October 17, 2006 06:05 PM | Link to this

It is not just ANY private school or ANY public school—they are not all the same. While I think upper middle class parents like me should be agents of improvement for our schools, I am not quite willing to “sacrifice” my own children. My children have always been in public school except for a time when we lived in Tallahassee and were zoned for horrible schools. Then I really sacrificed and put them in a small, non-sectarian private school until I could move out of the area.

As far as colleges go, the college my daughter attended (fairly elite) pulled about 3/4 of its students from private schools. She felt the division pretty keenly, but whether it was the private school or just that they came from such wealthy families, I don’t know.

By KA

October 17, 2006 06:59 PM | Link to this

Patti, I think the range of opinions here show that generally where public schools are deficient, then people would opt for private school, especially with a tuition waiver. But where the community is good, and the parents can be brought together to support the school, then the public school can function as well as or better than the private alternative. Public or private, it all comes down to 3 factors; good teachers, attentive students, and parents who encourage their kids to do their best.

By lynn d

October 17, 2006 07:23 PM | Link to this

Data —

Last year, Princeton University’s early admittance group was over 1`/2 public school graduates. Harvard’s class of 2010 is 54% public school graduates. Keep in mind, that the Ivys are very expensive and many middle class students shy away from that level of expense.

By Lee

October 17, 2006 09:03 PM | Link to this

As a parent who sent one through public school and yanked the youngest out for private school, I would have to say without a doubt, emphatically, ……

….. it depends.

If you are lucky enough to live in a school district with good schools that provide a safe, challenging learning environment, count your lucky stars. If not, do everything in your power to get them out of there. Here are a few of my observations about a high performing private school:

• Parents who fork over $12-20k per year usually place a higher degree of emphasis on education and are very involved.

• School administration realizes that they have to perform or I quit writing the checks. There’s this little concept called value for my money.

• The teachers? They come from the same colleges and universities as public schools. The main difference is they they don’t have to contend with all the discipline problems and bureaucratic bullcrap that their public school counterparts have to face. They also are teaching a class with similar abilities (imagine that).

Bottom line, I’ve been very well pleased with our private school experience. It’s nice to talk to my daughter about the lab experiments they are doing in Biology instead of how many fights occured that day…

By SNY

October 18, 2006 09:18 AM | Link to this

Lynn D.,

Thanks for the data! I’m going to call Hampton University, one of the only colleges I will allow my daughter to attend and find out their numbers. It will be interesting to know. But honestly, I’m not sure that I would want my child to attend Harvard or Yale or any of the ivies. I think that it is waaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy too much pressure. IMHO, fresman comp is the same at any college.

By Janine

October 18, 2006 09:25 AM | Link to this

Whoa lynnd@5:36 YOu are assuming that the only reason a parent would want to send a child to private school is to assure admission to an elite university. That just is not the case. For many [maybe most]parents this just is not the issue..or if it is,it is way down the list of considerations. Parents just want the best educational environment and education for their children so they will have options in life. Many parents want their private school educated children to attend their alma mater, whether it is Ga. Tech, UNC, UGA,etc. and many just want their children to have a good K-12 foundation so that they can have choices whether it be Ol’ Miss or Harvard. Oh..and the expense of Harvard is out of the realm of possibility for most….and the full scholarships are reserved for students whose parents couldn’t afford private school OR who have brilliant grades and SAT scores…Good educations can be gotten at many state universities. Check the resume’s and CV’s of successful people [whatever your definition of success is ] and I think you won’s find an excess of Elite universities among them.

By lynn d

October 18, 2006 09:37 AM | Link to this

Janine

I agree with your comments, except that in places with highly educated parents, you are wrong. In NYC, for example, and even in parts of Buckhead, parents view each step of the educational process as a stepping stone to the next level, starting at preschool.

There are people who believe that the only path to Harvard, for example, is Westminster or Pace. Likewise, many families are now removing their children from private school to public school for the additional AP courses to help get into Georgia.

By lynn d

October 18, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this

Behavior problems (bad ones at that) do exist in private schools and these students are always asked to leave.

I have a friend, whose child was at a respected private school, where the boys were so ill behaved in her class that they were constantly disruptive, that they pulled their child out in May for public school. The private school kept saying that their child was the problem — not the other children. My friends actually hired an independent observer to go into the classroom. The observer reported that the boys were out of control. These boys’ parents and grandparents were huge financial supporters of the school — end of story.

By SET

October 18, 2006 09:55 AM | Link to this

One of the principal reasons people in this state choose private schools is exclusivity. They want their children to avoid association with the proles. This is especially important for minority children whose parents want them to be university eligible.

The rates of violence, drug use, STDs, and bad attitudes in general are a huge problem with CA minorities. The underclass within the minority groups is large and growing. There is significant downward mobility in CA and parents who themselves have university education will take drastic steps to give their children better odds at reaching university level education.

By Janine

October 18, 2006 10:08 AM | Link to this

SETI think your observation applies to most parents in most states. And lynnd….I still think the parents you are talking about are in a very small minority as an overall percentage of private school parents. As I have said before on this blog, once in school, children have more hours of contact with their classmates than with their parents. I think SET’s 9:55 post is a much more accurate analysis of reasons for choosing private schools

By Newbie

October 18, 2006 03:08 PM | Link to this

I have had two children in private school, both of whom attended a very good public elementary school. Although the older one stayed at the private school through graduation, the younger one is now back in public for high school. My 2 cents:

Private school classes are certainly smaller, and our older child needed that, so she couldn’t be invisible, even if she tried. I miss that class size for my younger one - her classes in public school are twice the size of the private school ones.

That said, our experience was that troublemakers certainly do make it into private school, especially if their parents are perceived to be big donors. They are not necessarily thrown out for misbehavior; the school has a “three strike” policy, and one child’s first strike was smoking marijuana in the bathroom, the second was assault on another student and the third was bringing marijuana and alcohol on an out of town athletic team trip, which caused the hotel to threaten arrest of the entire team. At the time the child was in 8th grade…. Last year, my child’s middle school class repeatedly behaved so badly at the local public library, that the head librarian has banned the entire school from ever using that branch again. None of the students responsible were disciplined. There has never been a child exited for poor grades either. (Again, the big donor effect.) Finally,at this school, there were teachers who had no teaching experience, but, unlike in public school, they did not have the backup of basic training classes or mentoring by more experienced teachers.

These are the reasons we returned to public school. Why shell out $15K a year, when the problems are really no different? Our emphasis on academics, doing your best and respecting the teachers remains the same, whether our child is in public or private school, and that is what I believe to be important.

By SET

October 18, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

I just looked at Newbie’s post and thought some more… It’s not enough that you have to worry about your child being shot dead by a stranger (in connection with attendance) at the public high schools in Richmond, Los Angeles, Oakland or San Francisco CA - we also have to consider getting them through high school without criminal histories. The comment about arresting the entire athletic team is not an empty threat. I work in the criminal courts as well as civil courts. Both children and parents are ignorant of vicarious criminal liability - when you commit a crime through the actions of someone else (and passive actions of your own).

In areas of narcotics, stolen property and gun violations it is not unusual to see people in custody who honestly believe “I didn’t do anything”. If they would quit whining long enough to read the jury instructions they might understand how guilty they are. Someone going to a ghetto school really should take classes in criminal law by 8th grade if they want to have a chance of staying out of trouble. They are so clueless of how criminal law works they happily confess to (all or some) the elements of a crime without understanding it is a crime.

As long as you are in the orbit of druggies or criminals in general the odds of being caught up in crime are too high to fight.

The urban public schools will not segregate or control these people (child druggies, gangsters and criminals). If you send your child into that environment nowadays and your child is male and your child is (gasp) black - you will need a lawyer on call as well as a health plan. Sad but true. If your child is female of any race you have (odds of) a different set of problems (Becoming a victim by their own negligence).

Attendance at private or church schools doesn’t completely drop the odds but it does reduce them. Especially in LA and the Bay Area where you have a selection of competitive private schools to choose from. Thoses schools market themselves as a safer environment and tend to not tolerate anybody that threatens a scandal. Likewise the “public near-ivy” high schools.

By SET

October 18, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this

Typo last paragraph —These schools market themselves as… - sorry!

By Yep

October 19, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this

Our three children have gone to a mixture of public and private schools as did my husband and I. The best public schools are in the better areas. I hate to say it but it is true. Private schools are awesome because they are smaller and because the teachers are not under a lot of pressure. It seems to me, after being a parent for over 20 years, that private school teachers enjoy teaching more than public school teachers but this is not to say that we haven’t had great public school teachers.

By Bubba

October 20, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

my issue is not public or private but good vs bad. My children have been in good public schools and bad ones and good private schools and bad ones. I have also seen great teachers in bad schools and lousy teachers in some good schools.