AJC.com > Blogs > Get Schooled > Archives > 2006 > October > 10 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USLove the Student, Hate the Word Choice
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Today I observed for the second time a language arts class for gifted middle school students. The teacher is her school’s teacher of the year, and she is beloved in the community.
I was a bit surprised by her brutal honesty with her students’ writing. “This is terrible!” “This is no good!” “This is so boring!” Yes, she also had words of praise for some of her students’ rough drafts. But she didn’t hesitate to tell the ones who weren’t trying or were misguided in their efforts where their problems were. She wanted them to reach for vivid vocabulary words, and when they let her down she told them so.
I asked her afterward about her blunt assessment of her students’ writing. She said her kids know she adores them, so she doesn’t worry that they’ll crumble under her criticism. “I’m trying to get them ready for high school,” she said. “They need to hear this.”
Teachers, can you tell it like it is with your students, especially when it comes to writing and other areas where there is no clear right answer? Do you worry about hurting their feelings? How do you break it to a sensitive student that his or her writing is not up to par?
Comments
By SET
October 10, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this
I absoloutely agree that a teacher should be blunt and unsparing in correcting a child. Nothing is gained by babying kids.
Having said that I’d expect the teacher to make it clear that he or she doesn’t speak for the school or the whole world and that in a lot of things, reasonable people can disagree.
I’d prefer the teachers not tell their stupid student that “You are stupid” but rather say “You are acting real stupid today”. There is a difference in the two phrases.
I understand that the stupid kids may hear things the way they think so they will run and tell some protectionist parent or other adult that “The teacher called me stupid”. When the teacher did no such thing.
Being a good teacher is a tough job.
By LB
October 10, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this
Nothing is gained by sugar coating information given to children. Tell it like it is so they can grow past the mistakes. No learning takes place if teachers are made to tell kids everything is OK when it is not.
By luvs2teach
October 10, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this
I can be brutally honest, but it’s only when I’ve established a relationship with a student - I think you do a disservice if you let them get away with less than their best. I might ask, “Wow…what happened?”
They know when their work isn’t up to par - they usually smile and say, “I know…”
I would never call a child a name, though, like “stupid.” I might address behavior that way, but there are better ways to let them know that they aren’t making the best choices.
Middle school kids are sensitive, but they also appreciate honesty.
By a high school mom
October 10, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this
My son, a high school sophomore, has always appreciated honest feedback from his teachers, glowing and critical. From the get-go, his (public school)teachers have been forthcoming and, sometimes, blunt. He has become a wonderful writer thanks to his LA teachers (and now his AP World History teacher as well). How will students grow and develop if they don’t get honest feedback?
By Old School
October 10, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this
Aww…are the meanie teachers hurting the precious children’s feelings? This teacher is doing her students a favor. Better to learn how to receive criticism now than hear it for the first time at college or on the job. Sheesh.
By Dana
October 10, 2006 05:22 PM | Link to this
I think kids have a hard time separating themselves from their writing, and therefore, when we see teachers who we feel are too blunt, it looks mean. It seems too persona. What a good teacher helps a student do, however, is improve his or her writing by giving honest, constructive feedback. Over time, I think students learn that it is not the student the teacher is criticizing, but his/her work. People don’t tend to get upset when the way they work a problem is corrected, but the act of creating, whether drawing or writing or what have you, is so much more personal, and students need to be taught how to take constructive criticism. I was wondering about her students… did they seem OK with this type of feedback? If you observed no tears or pouting, then she has probably developed the kind of relationship with them that enables her to be more direct.
By catlady
October 10, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this
I say it privately to them in conference if it is likely to embarrass, but I am also cognizant of their feelings if I am praising something highly. General comments are okay (great use of words or could you think of another way to say…) but “What on earth were you thinking?” is said in private, and after an atmosphere of trust and respect is established. Depends on the age of the student, also.
Don’t mollycoddle, but don’t humiliate, that is my motto.
By Patrick
October 10, 2006 05:51 PM | Link to this
I am notorious for being hyper-critical of my students’ papers and I tell my students up front that their rough drafts will be awash in a sea of blood-red pen when the papers are returned to them. I don’t grade nearly as strictly as I correct (especially since I am not an English teacher, but a FL teacher), but it is monumentally important that the kids get honest criticism from all of their teachers about their writing in all of their classes. I tell them not to take it personally and that, if they do, then we should talk about it privately to resolve those feelings.
By SET
October 10, 2006 06:34 PM | Link to this
A good teacher can give his or her student all the attention and loving support received by the parties before Judge Judy.
It’s the way people learn. You don’t have forever to get the attention of your students and they can do further reasearch (and try and convince themselves they are right about something) on their own time.
By bah
October 10, 2006 07:11 PM | Link to this
Middle schoolers are definitely a different group of kids, as my nine years of experience with them has shown. They do not like to be corrected in front of the class but can take it in private. I often felt like I was really tough on them, but after returning to the elementary level within the last two years, students have come by to visit with comments such as, “You really need to go back to middle school.” When I asked why in the world should I, they responded,”The other teachers just don’t understand us. They don’t send home computer grade printouts when we want them, etc.” (I think that’s so they can go to a sleep-over or party.) Students, no matter what age, know if you really care about them. This teacher obviously knows her students well enough to be tough, but I promise you, she knows when to stop. I also teach gifted students and absolutely love each day with my 1st, 2nd, and 5th graders,as well as I did with my middle schoolers. This summer I taught 5th graders who did not pass the reading portion of the CRCT;this was an intense six hour per day, three week review. Boy, I had to go back and use every technique I had ever learned from all my teachers, but we had fun , despite the behavior issues, and they all PASSED the retest! I think I was more happy than they were!! That is true teaching, just like I have to do each day with my precocious gifted students, and I’m certain this is what this teacher does, as well.
By Jeff
October 10, 2006 07:22 PM | Link to this
I’ll tell them like it is, at ALL times. If it’s great, I let em know. If they’re being an idiot, I tell em.
I even go so far as to tell the kids that are acting big and bad: “You think you’re something????? You don’t even have a 6th grade education yet!!”
I can be BITINGLY sarcastic, even cruel, with my comments…. and I wouldn’t change a thing.
Perform, or - at a minimum - simply stay in your seat and silent, and you’ll get GLOWING praise. I’ve gotten to where I thank kids every day for nothing more than sitting in their seat silently and working all period - because it is so rare.
Don’t…. and you get the biting sarcasm/ as cruel as I can possibly be without cussing comments.
My basic attitude is this: If you don’t perform/ can’t follow the rules, you’d better get used to being on the recieving end of “mean” comments. The world is easily forgiving if you perform or follow the rules, and will love you if perform AND follow the rules, but you will be HATED if you neither perform nor follow the rules.
By Jeff
October 10, 2006 07:25 PM | Link to this
Question for the teachers out there:
How do you deal with the “gifted” kids that love to proclaim loudly in front of the entire class that “you don’t teach us anything!”?
I had it last semester, and I’ve got a couple doing it now, and could use the advice. Thanks!
By KA
October 10, 2006 07:44 PM | Link to this
Jeff, I am not a teacher, but if I were you I would challenge them, and give them something way over their heads like quadratic equations, problems in topology, or ask them to solve a proof that is unsolvable.
By Stacey
October 10, 2006 07:45 PM | Link to this
I know I’m about to get my head chopped off, but I do not believe that it is okay to be so “brutally honest” with kids. I’m not saying they should be babied, but they shouldn’t be berated either. If the teacher feels that the paper is so terrible, either write it on the paper or pull the student aside but do not belittle the child’s work.
By GW
October 10, 2006 07:59 PM | Link to this
Hurt a child’s feelings by criticizing their work? Are you kidding? Mommy will get mad but the kids could care less.
By Lee
October 10, 2006 08:02 PM | Link to this
This teacher has apparently built a rapport with the students and can communicate in this manner. Another teacher could use the same language with the same students and would have a fight on his/her hands.
Kids are a lot smarter than we give them credit for. They know who really cares about them and they know which teachers are just going through the motions.
Hey, it’s not just the kids who may or may not take constructive criticism. I’ve seen middle aged adults receive a bad performance evaluation at work and they pout for months.
By Janine
October 10, 2006 08:13 PM | Link to this
Patti This is a great teacher,and she is right.When they get to high school and later college, no one will be sugar coating anything and her students will come back to thank her…Back in the day, when everyone was expected to learn how to express themselves clearly in standard AMerican English, it was quite routine to receive these kinds of comments…However, I’m shocked that her administrators allow her honesty in the classroom. I never had one who would not babble on about self esteem, etc. Who cares if they are never pushed to learn. Also, she’s taking quite a chance that kids won’t go home and complain about her to their parents….and they will complain to the principal, and the super, and the board and call the AJC and on and on until it becomes a huge non-issue….I ADMIRE THE HECK OUT OF HER.
By Janine
October 10, 2006 08:17 PM | Link to this
Oh…and when I was a freshman in college, my roommate got her first composition back. The comments from the professor??? “The content of this composition is both interesting and excellent. However, you have 3 mispelled words, 2 misplaced commas, and a dangling participle. Totally inexcusable!!”: GRADE….F
By Dick
October 10, 2006 08:29 PM | Link to this
Now mommies and daddies won’t like you to be ugly to their little darlngs.
By SET
October 10, 2006 08:45 PM | Link to this
Does anyone correct students for using Black English? Do you ever correct them openly?
How’s that for a blog topic?
By Jeff
October 10, 2006 08:48 PM | Link to this
SET:
It WAS a blog topic at one point, I remember a decently heated discussion about it… I think you were involved….
By KA
October 10, 2006 08:53 PM | Link to this
SET, I think teachers should correct for poor speech patterns in any group, black or white, whatever. There are plenty of mumbling teens out there! The Rain in Spain Stays Mainly on the Plain……
By KA
October 10, 2006 08:56 PM | Link to this
Back in the day when I was in high school we got two grades on our compositions, one for content, and one for mechanics. Do any HS teachers grade that way today?
By Lisa B.
October 10, 2006 09:08 PM | Link to this
Writer’s workshop in my class is well scripted. Students work alone, then revise with peers, and conference with me. Conferences are used to assess weaknesses and work on overcoming them. Students are guided to rewrite papers to include the standards. After rewrites, students work in small groups at the “editing” table, and that can be quite brutal. The students examine every piece of work together, find all the flaws, are hyper critical, etc. After survival of the “Editing Table” students rewrite their final work, which is turned in for their grade.
My rules of conduct are extremely strict while all this is going on. I have few infractions, because all students are waiting for turns at the peer table or the teacher table.
These are 4th grade students.
By jim d
October 11, 2006 08:14 AM | Link to this
It is really a shame many HS teachers don’t feel the same and those that do are unable to hand out failing grades for sub par work. You know, with the self-esteem thing, NCLB and all.
Unfortunately, this teacher is fighting a losing battle, preparing students for high school work that will never be. Or at best be ignored to enable our schools to make the much-coveted AYP. I do however, commend this teacher and those like her that continue to fight the good fight regardless of educratic control of our public school systems.
She Rocks!
By Stacey
October 11, 2006 08:40 AM | Link to this
In response to SET’s question, unless it’s a creative writing assignment where the characters would speak “Black English”, then yes, proper grammar should be required. If the student is speaking then he should be tactfully corrected for any improper grammar and/or language (ebonics or otherwise).
For me, it isn’t about self esteem. I just believe that people (even children) should be treated and spoken to respectfully. Although these gifted students may be academically superior to other students, they are still children.
By OldSchool
October 11, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this
At 5:04 p.m. October 10, 2006, I was on the road home to South Georgia from Tennessee and DID NOT post the comment from the other “Old School.”
That being said, I am “brutally honest” with my students about the quality of their work. I am also encouraging and complimentary when the work/student has earned it. I think it’s like the phrase, “Quality is job one” in that excellence in a student’s work usually means there is understanding.
By EW
October 11, 2006 08:51 AM | Link to this
I teach middle school students, I agree that you must establish a relationship with your classes at first, but I’m brutally honest about everything! WHY? Life is brutal and the middle school age is really the make or break stage in life… Honesty is the very best policy, however the problem then comes in when you have parents that are not as honest and allow the students to live in a fog reality, so that is where the conflict comes in… Your reality versus the parents fantasy….
By luvs2teach
October 11, 2006 08:52 AM | Link to this
Stacey - let me clarify - by the terms “brutally honest” I don’t mean belittle. It a child’s work is sub-par, I tell them, privately it’s not their best. I ask them if they think it could’ve been better. Most of the time I can tell if a kid whipped up something in 20 minutes in homeroom or took the two weeks I gave them to complete the assignment. They know it too, and if they see you let them get away with producing “crappy work” they think you don’t care. I don’t tell them “It sucks” or “That’s crappy” or “Your work is stupid.” I just tell them I think they could’ve done better, and ask them what they think. They usually agree.
By EW
October 11, 2006 08:56 AM | Link to this
SET,
Most definitely you correct all incorrect grammar and English… I don’t even acknowledge my students when they ask me something in incorrect English… Also a problem in my classes is when the students don’t understand that when writing you don’t use what I call “text message English”. For example, R U here? My students actually abbreviate their words like there writing letters to their friends. It’s crazy!!
By Stacey
October 11, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this
I agree that improper mechanics should count against the grade. In high school we had to turn in a term paper that counted as 1/3 of our grade in composition. More than one student received an F because of misspelled words, punctuation errors and poor sentence structure. Mechanics counted for 25% of the grade so an otherwise B composition could easily become an F.
By lovelyliz
October 11, 2006 09:11 AM | Link to this
I used to be a math teacher. Quite often there would be some sort of short, writing assignment with the homework & tests. I would include proper grammar and spelling as a part of the overall grade. You wouldn’t believe the complaints I got, not just from the students, but also the parents. Evidently it was my job to teach algebra/geometry and nothing else.
By KA
October 11, 2006 09:12 AM | Link to this
Everyone is so touchy these days, and I think the words “brutally honest” may not be the most PC way to frame the teacher’s review, which is simply “constructive criticism.” Not all criticism is bad, and that is a lesson our kids can learn, too.
By Stacey
October 11, 2006 09:27 AM | Link to this
I agree that improper mechanics should count against the grade. In high school we had to turn in a term paper that counted as 1/3 of our grade in composition. More than one student received an F because of misspelled words, punctuation errors and poor sentence structure. Mechanics counted for 25% of the grade so an otherwise B composition could easily become an F.
By WFC
October 11, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this
I’ve been teaching since 1975 and am famous (or infamous) for “telling it like it is” to students whose approach to school and life is not going to lead to success. What happened? A student with a well earned “54” average who I wouldn’t let go sit at the back of the room with her friends filed a “sexual harassment” (hostile environment) charge and I’m in big touble. No wonder that most teachers simply ignore the student weaknesses that lead to lack of success in later life. School systems simply don’t care about students once they have graduated. A dedicated teacher does care even if it leads to some conflict during the 10th grade.
By teach overseas
October 11, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this
Sorry Jeff- Biting sarcasm has NO PLACE in the classroom. Especially with middle school students- many of them don’t get sarcasm. 6th, many 7th graders and some 8th graders are very literal. You can let them know they are being total boneheads without being nasty. Your job is to make them feel safe so they can reach and make mistakes,and know you will correct their mistakes and teach them the right way to do things.
By Dan
October 11, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this
KA your 912 post is quite ironic, even in a blog some people feel the need to turn brutally honest into constructive criticism. This fear of the over sensitive PC police is a clear hindrance to learning.
By KA
October 11, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this
Dan, My comment was tongue in cheek, and I was really addressing the reactions of the bloggers to “brutally honest,” by suggesting a more accurate description of what I believe the teacher is attempting with her editing comments. Kumbaya y’all!
By Stacey
October 11, 2006 09:57 AM | Link to this
Luvs2teach…Thanks for the clarification. I agree with everything you said. Some students write their 500 word essay on the bus on the way to school and wonder why they get a very, very, very bad grade.
KA, I agree that constructive criticism is not only good, but essential for kids to learn. I just don’t think “this is terrible” nor “you’re acting stupid” is constructive.
By KA
October 11, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this
Stacey, I agree. Teachers should be honest but use tact with their critcal comments..
By caroline
October 11, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this
What about homonyms? They’re,their. and *there still count as mistakes in usage, even in teachers’ blogs.
By KA
October 11, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this
caroline, Generally in the blog we avoid correcting each other’s misspellings and grammatical errors. We are here to exchange ideas, and sometimes in our typing furor we make mistakes. Please forgive us : ).
By b. white
October 11, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this
Often I wonder how students can talk one way and write another. If proper English is not spoken it usually isn’t written. E-mail has ruined the English language. Cool doesn’t reflect correct. I teach middle school, and the students save their work to their ThawSpace. I am able to open it and pass on corrections so they can correct as we both look at the composition. This is done in class, and they take it as constructive criticism.
By BRYANT
October 11, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this
I think teachers should be able to use the same discipline and corrective measures that footbal coaches use. No way that will ever be allowed in the classroom but we expect teachers to produce when we pet them and then tolerate the irate parent if you say one thing that is not politically correct.Visit your local high school footbal practice and you will see what I mean. They know how to extract the maximum mental and physical effort.
By lynn d
October 11, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this
I think that teachers like the one you describe are doing the kids a favor. When I went to college, I thought I was a great writer. Twenty plus years later, I still remember the shock of the freshman english.
Our elementary school teachers’ grade both on content and style. This way, a child who writes too little or too much but with perfect grammer and spelling gets feedback on content. And vice-versa.
By Terry
October 11, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this
The lovely teacher was right one. What is so wrong with telling it like it is. Our problem is that we have gone too soft in the country.
By Melinda
October 11, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this
I have taught seniors in high school for 30 years. I tell them the first day of school that I am not rude but I am brutally honest and they should realize the difference. I build a relationship with them and they know when I am sarcastic or critical that I still like them but I am simply disappointed in their lack of effort. Parents have to be babied - not the students.
By Ernest
October 11, 2006 12:18 PM | Link to this
As a parent, I would expect teachers to provide constructive criticism, especially regarding the students written communication skills. Ironically, I spoke with a colleague today who is assisting his son by typing his essays for his college applications. He indicated he was floored by his son’s use of poor grammar in his writing (in fairness, his son does not live with him). He commented that his son makes all ‘A’s in English and now wonders if they are an accurate reflection of his skills.
I say forget the ‘self esteem’ and tell students what they ‘need’ to hear, sooner rather than later.
By Thank You
October 11, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this
Thank goodness there are still teachers around who are not afraid to be blunt with their students. What are we telling our future leaders if they are never wrong?
I’m not a teacher and I never could be one. Schools have become daycares. The parents just want the kids out of their hair and the teachers have no say so in what goes on in their classroom.
It is time for kids to be scared of having a teacher call home again. We were terrified if our teachers called home and my daughter is too. She knows she is guilty until proven innocent where school is concerned.
I hate sugar coating anything. You either did something or you didn’t. My boss tells me when I eff up and I do the same for my daughter.
By V for Vendetta
October 11, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this
My kids call me “House”. Enough said.
By Teacher, Too
October 11, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this
I am always honest when writing commentary to students on their writing. How can they improve if they don’t know what they are doing wrong? I teach gifted kids also- and I will be their language arts teacher for the three years they are in middle school. This is really beneficial because I get to know their writing and can tell when they haven’t put forth effort and when they have.
Interestingly, I received an e-mail from a former student who started magnet school this year. She indicated to me that I was the only teacher who prepared her for the rigorous curriculum. I was floored that she sent that e-mail- she fought so hard against what I was teaching her last year. I guess some of my constructive criticism actually helped her!
By SNY
October 11, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this
My daughter corrects me at times. Vocabulary is BIG in my house. Even my 3 year old understands the difference. I try to get my kids to understand that slang is not English. Growing up, my friends used to tell me that I sound like a white girl. That used to upset me (because it is true) now, when I go in for an interview, I love to see the shock on their faces when they realize that I am actually black. I guess people do not expect black people to sound or to speak as if they have any common sense about themselves. Now, it doesn’t upset me anymore. Hopefully, my children will come to understand and appreciate how important proper grammer is in the real world.
BTW, my daughter attends an all black private school and they are not allow to speak ebonics or slang to anyone in the school. Including each other. If they get caught, they get in trouble. I love it!!! :)
By Assclowniis Maximus
October 11, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this
I think Sonny Perdue would have a problem with this. He would write a letter asking these teachers to be more pro-Georgia students.
He would demand a more positive approach be taken and condemn this obvious delightment in student failure. He understands that teachers wait for kids to fail in an effort to bring them further down.
Many of these “tell-it like it is teachers” should move to Chattanooga
Sonny doesn’t want your type here!
By katie
October 11, 2006 02:17 PM | Link to this
I wish more teachers corrected students who speak ‘slang’ and use the word ‘like’ too much. Speaking the English language correctly is important. Teachers should also be allowed to dicipline students, even if it means dragging them out of the class and taking them to the principles office. Teachers should be given more control of their classrooms. Students should not be treated as babies and should not be protected from the world. Also, it is not always the fault of the teacher if a student doesn’t learn. Sometimes the parents are to blame and should be blamed. Sometimes the it is the students fault, they choose not to particpate, they should be held responsible accordingly. It’s a tough world, get used to it.
By Stacey
October 11, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this
SNY…We were not allowed to use slang and improper grammar in my household growing up either. I grew up in the 70’s and my parents would sometime speak “pig latin” to each other when they didn’t want us to know what they were saying. If my mother said something to us that we didn’t understand, we had to go look the word up in the dictionary. I thought she was horrible when I was young because our friends also teased us for “talking white”. When we would complain, Mama would tell us to find friends who knew that black does not mean ignorant.
By SNY
October 11, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this
OMG Stacey, I thought that my mother was the only parent in the world that made me look up words in the dictionary. I used to carry one around with me everywhere for fear that my mother would use a word that I didn’t know. I thought that I would hate her forever for that. Until I took the SAT!! Boy, did that discipline come in handy. I scored a 1420!! Can’t beat that. (I realize that in today’s world, that is a low score but remember people, this was in 1991 and 1992). That is a great score for back then. Now, if my daughter uses a word out of context, I do the exact same thing to her. She absolutely hates it. I laugh all of the time about it.
Stacey, I think that we should both call our moms today and thank them for what they did for us. I know that to this day, I have never told her how important that dictionary was to me. (I’m terrible.)
By Shooter
October 11, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this
I see the assclown is speaking for Sonny Purdue now. Assclown is a moron and anyone who buys his BS is a bigger moron.He’s on cloud nine now someone has noticed him.
By a-game
October 11, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this
Reading these comments from educators and others, it’s not surprising to me we’re awash in hostile, belligerent teens who, in many cases, have checked out of the learning process.
I’ve been teaching for 16 years. The sharing of creative work is a moment of extraordinary vulnerability for most students (assuming they haven’t mentally quit already), and saying they simply need to “buck up” and take hostile, non-nurturing criticism creates a very clear equation: emotional armoring equals success. Kindness equals weakness. And unless they’re producing “results,” they’re failing.
How pathetic and limited. That’s how you train soldiers, not thinkers. And Stacey’s comment above that she knows she’s “going to get her head chopped off” if she offers a dissenting opinion is testament to how intimidating and damaging being verbally abused is, even to adults.
And yet, that seems to be what the posters above want: kids who will sit down, shut up and follow orders. The result is what I’ve dealt with for years as a writing teacher: kids who will chew through a brick wall if you show them EXACTLY how to do it, but can’t answer the question, “What do you think?” They’ve never been asked to think, because they’ve been browbeaten endlessly to produce “results.”
Y’all keep on. And when you wonder why kids give up on education, when you wonder why they don’t value the things you value, when you wonder why the world is becoming a more hostile place, when you wonder how things keep getting coarser, and harder and less humane in daily life—remember that you took education and turned it into job training, you met their creativity and mistakes with humiliation and shaming, and you created a bunch of competitive, bottom-line creeps instead of compassionate citizens.
By Gretchen
October 11, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this
Jeff, I have kids doing the same thing to me, and I say, "You very well may be bored with this material. If you think you are beyond this, please have your parents insist that you be tested for the gifted program. I do not want to hold you back." They always shut up after that when they're called on it. haha It's funny because these kids are usually the biggest slackers and can barely read, let alone be considered gifted. I have even had the laziest students' parents ask, "Could he just be bored?" And they get a flat-out, "NO!" No wonder these kids think they're so beyond what they can learn in school if their parents coddle them and make exuses. I am married to a man who is gifted but did very poorly in school. Although gifted status can come in various forms, I have a pretty good idea what to look for. Lazy does not equal gifted.As far as the blunt comments to the students go, as long as they are not being humiliated, blunt is the way to go. In fact, in my Georgia Performance Standards training for Language Arts, we were told to be blunt with our criticism giving specific examples of where the students messed up (ex. poor organization, conclusion is lacking, etc). Now, we were not told to say, “This sucks!” or anything like that, but we were told to not use generic praise such as “Great job!” Kids need to know where they’re going wrong, or else we’re going to have an overabundance of hyper-sensitive, illiterate hamburger flippers in the future.
By Thank You
October 11, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this
Oh sweetie, it is perfectly okay that you misspelled 340 words in this 500 word essay. It doesn’t matter that as a junior in high school, you have no concept of the English Language. Just the fact that these are your thoughts and feelings will guarantee you an A.
Besides, if I don’t give you an A, your parents will be here screaming about it being my job to ensure you got an A.
Have fun in the real world!
By New Name
October 11, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this
To OldSchool: Sorry, I didn’t mean to steal your name with my comment on October 10th. I don’t post here often enough to know everyone’s names yet.
By jeff
October 11, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this
a-game:
How ironic… my attitude is taken almost DIRECTLY from the best teachers I ever had…. the ones that forced me to be on my “a-game”.
One of the BIGGEST motivators around? Proving someone wrong. Nearly ALL of my nasty comments are meant to illicit that response: “I’ll prove HIM wrong.” In that, I’ll yell at a kid (when about a foot from them): “You don’t know how to sit in your seat and do your work!” Proving me wrong means that they are doing EXACTLY what I wanted in the first place!
As far as the rest of your post goes: You don’t seem to realize the sheer laziness and entitlement attitude of the kids I work with. They expect to literally be GIVEN EVERYTHING, because until they walked into MY door, they pretty much have been all their lives. They want parties for sitting there and doing their work silently!!!!!!!!!!!! As I told them today when that was brought up: I reward exceptional work. What makes you think you’ve earned a special privilege just for meeting the BASIC requirements????
By lovelyliz
October 11, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this
My niece attends a private Christian school. A couple of weeks ago a big sign was put up in one of the hallways advertising some sort of soccer event. Part of the handwritten text read:
Make sure you tell them your from……
Your as opposed to you are or you’re. This was far from the first time I’ve seen this type of thing coming out of that school.
Don’t expect that all private schools are better than the public system.
By Thank You
October 11, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this
Jeff you are right on with your comments. I work with people who are the same way.
When I was growing up, not everybody made the Honor Roll, people actually “lost” when playing games, kids were taught common sense(as important as book sense), and we were reprimanded when we were wrong. (My family had two for one specials. You get in trouble at school, you get in trouble at home.)
I remember crying when I got a C on a report card. Mediocre is now the norm and accepted no matter what effort is made.
By OldSchool
October 11, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this
Hi there, NewName! I took no offense at all…just didn’t want to be credited with work that was not my own. I get a lot of that from my traditional drafting students in the early weeks of the term. They tend to copy my examples EXACTLY instead of replacing my name with their own.
Now, back to the topic: I probably gave everyone the idea that I launch into my students with a volley of negatives when grading their drawings. This is true, but I also am just as quick (or quicker) with glory, laud, and honor when the work is done well (to industry standards) especially when it is a struggling student.
Sarcasm? My teaching has been sprinkled with it for 33 years and some former students have actually insisted that their own kids enroll in my class because they like my style of holding students’ feet to the fire. They also know I like nothing better than whooping and cheering when a kid deserves a standing O.
Industry expects a certain level of expertise in the technical drawings and I expect no less. If I start accepting less, I’m doing future employers of my students a huge disservice. So I redline their drawings and they get one chance at resubmitting corrected drawings before getting a grade that stays put. And I think the same should hold true in the academic areas.
By Taxpayer
October 12, 2006 08:34 AM | Link to this
A-game raises some valid points. Honest, constructive criticism is necessary, but how useful is belittling a kid who is already working hard to fulfill an assignment? Writing on a kid’s paper “This is terrible!” doesn’t really help because the kid won’t know WHY the teacher considers the writing terrible.
I teach college composition, both regular and remedial courses. I have undo a lot of damage that nasty teachers have done to students over the years. At least half of my students come in at the beginning of each semester and tell me, “I hate English. I can’t write. I’m no good.” A little digging usually reveals why: the student had a teacher who gave insulting comments instead of constructive criticism. I don’t tell my students that their writing is “terrible.” How do you fix “terrible”? Instead, I mark their sentence fragments, comma splices, and other errors, and I also evaluate the assignment for clarity, diction, organization, and development of ideas, among other definable elements. I assign plenty of failing grades, but I make sure my students know why they earned those grades. I gain nothing from belittling my students. They don’t gain anything either.
By EducatorX3
October 12, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this
Taxpayer, Thank you! I think we need to distinguish between blunt and constructive. I don’t coddle or sugar coat, but I do make sure my comments lead to improvement by giving very specific descriptions of the problems. (This does not mean that I mark every error! It is the job of the student to find the mistakes.) You are so right about how teacher comments can influence how a student feels about the subject from that point forward.
Gretchen - I believe in the GPS training, you were told to be specific, not blunt. I don’t know if you got redelivery from your system or actually attended the state training sessions, but I know those training materials very well. The idea is to give feedback that relates to the standards being taught. Your feedback should be specific enough that the student knows what needs to be improved but general enough that you aren’t simply correcting their mistakes for them.
Jeff, I understand how easy it is to use sarcasm - and I also understand that some children respond to it because it is what they get at home. But I also know that in most systems, teachers who use sacrasm in the classroom that is “biting” and “cruel” will end up on Professional Development Plan - as they well should.
As for those gifted students, perhaps understanding that most learning does not, and will not, take place with students sitting in desks quietly doing their work. Students - gifted, average, and special ed -all learn better when they are actively enagaged in “doing” their content. Research also shows that we all - adults included - need the opportunity to talk about what we are learning. Remember that performing is more than completing assignments and following rules. The students have to be challenged to apply the content in real world situations, to discover for themselves ways of using their knowledge, and to find their own answers to questions. If you want to prepare them for the real world, then you have to think beyond the multiple choice test.
The objective is not that these children will answer the questions, write the essay, or do the math on the test, rather it is how will they do all of these things next year, and the year after, and from now on. The test will take care of itself if we focus on what they learn rather than what we teach.