Get Schooled

By Jeff

October 4, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this

I grew up watching Mr. Cosby on TV, both with his sitcom and the cartoon-type show he had on Nickelodean. He was a funny man back then.

Now, he is saying the very things that the black community needs to take to heart. He IS what the new breed of black leaders needs to be.

Time will only tell which way they go, but heed these words:

In ALL things, Yesterday’s thoughts determine today’s actions which determine tomorrow’s consequences. (Newer way of saying “you reap what you sow”.)

By V for Vendetta

October 4, 2006 10:29 AM | Link to this

I read the story and I have to say that whether or not you are black, white, yellow, or purple, Cosby’s words make sense. Goals are one of the biggest problems kids have today. There is always something to be said for reaching for the stars, but kids today all think they are going to be rappers, sports stars, or movie stars. They have no common sense goals.

I wish more people with a little bit of fame under their belts would step forward and speak the way Cosby does. He is leading by example. He is trying to be a positive role model. That’s a hell of a lot more than we can say for most people out there in Hollywood.

Off Topic: Can anyone believe this Harry Potter s** is still in the news!? I’m so glad we have people like this woman around to tell us what is right and safe and good. Without her sense of self-righteousness we would all surely be doomed!

By Jeff

October 4, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this

V:

There are a COUPLE saying similar things. I have some tracks from Chris Rock and DL Hugley mentioning the same type issues in their acts, and Morgan Freeman said the same basic ideas not too long ago.

The problem, as I see it: How do you change an entire culture?

By BlindHomer

October 4, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this

It’s sound advice, but it will have about as much impact as Maureen Dowd’s piece on the UGA basketball team graduation rate. And for the same reason.

By V for Vendetta

October 4, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this

Haha Homer, you’ve got a point there. Although unknowingly it kind of backs up what Jeff was saying about culture.

When I wa playing sports in college, we were constantly reminded about our grades. The grade reports would come out every semester tallying each teams average GPA. The lowest every time…

Not football

Not baseball

BASKETBALL.

One semester the team’s average GPA was below 2.0. To put it in real-world terms, having a GPA below 2.0 indicates to me that you can barely function as a human being, you probably chew with your mouth open (and breath through it), and you are constantly mystified by shiney objects (bling bling?).

By jim d

October 4, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

V,

Rarely do we really disagree but I must take exception to your choice of words.

“but kids today all think they are going to be rappers, sports stars, or movie stars. They have no common sense goals.”

I work with some boy’s that blow that statement out of the water. Many of them soon to be or already “Eagle Scouts”. This is a group of highly motivated, goal oriented young men that have set goals to being Doctors, Lawyers, Developers, Politicians and yes even a Teacher (but I’m still trying to talk my kid out of that one). I have little doubt these young men will accomplish most of what they have set goals to do. They have already proven themselves capable.

Not ALL KIDS!

And Jeff,

You change a whole culture —-one kid at a time.

By MMM

October 4, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

The same can be said for why Bill Cosby should be supported by all of us—he is saying what we all need to hear.

Maybe he can reach more because those whose misplaced expectations are that they will be a superstar with no effort will only just MAYBE listen to someone who already is one.

By V for Vendetta

October 4, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

Jim — point taken.

I agree. It’s the ones that you are describing that keep us teachers doing what we are doing.

As long as those kids remain, so will I. :-)

By mo

October 4, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

What culture?

In every culture there are people who work hard and achieve and there are people who doesn’t work hard and not achieve.

The African-American culture today is a very rich and diverse culture. We have many young people who are doing extremely well, and we also have some knuckleheads. We have very responsible parents as well as parents that lack in that area.

I see the same problems in white culture as well. I live in a predominately white neighborhood and I am certainly appalled at the way some of these parents here treat their kids. Some of these parents act like they just don’t care and I live in a financially lucrative area.

But black people are the ones that needs their culture changed? I don’t think so, and that is not the purpose of Bill Cosby’s speeches.

See, personal responsibility and goal setting is key to success in any culture. What Bill Cosby is trying to accomplish is the instillation of those values among our culture to counter the negative stereotypes that permeates from the advertisement of our culture.

In other words, the media has displayed our culture in a negative light to a point in which these stereotypes has to be dispelled by every young black person individually. That’s a hard task, because by virtue of these stereotypes the truly progressive African-American has to over-achieve in order to truly be seen as an achiever in the US… and that’s a burden.

In short, it’s great that we have someone out there that is a motivational speaker. But long gone are the days in which we as black people need a leader. We are not that monolithic in our thinking. We needed leadership back then because whites didn’t hear us when we spoke individually. We needed a speaker that can speak for a large portion of us. Now we can speak for ourselves.

No, we do not need a leader. We may need a PR person, or even a good AD agency- but not a leader.

By jim d

October 4, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

V,

Know whats really funny?

I’ve known several of these young men since “kindie garden” and set at that graduation. I’ll always remember their teachers speech. She said she saw Bankers, lawyers, doctors and educators setting in that classroom. I think she may be proven right. That classroom, to date, has produced 2 Eagle Scouts and I suspect a third is just around the corner. Don’t know if she really knew that looking a group of 5-6 year old kids, or was planting a seed. But Hey, it worked.

By Leia

October 4, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

jim d - We had an Eagle Scout in class last year who caused our school to be locked down for almost 3 hours because he went psycho and brought a homemade bomb to school! So, being an Eagle Scout is not the be-all, end-all for becoming a successful, productive young man.

And FYI - I don’t want my culture to change. I’d like to change some of the misguided attitudes some young people in my culture have.

By Jeff

October 4, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

Mo:

I live in South GA. I work in a school where I am one of LITERALLY about 10 white people.

It is the black culture itself that needs to be changed, but if you want me to be more specific, I will say that it is the hip-hop culture. And it needs a leader.

The media aint doing NEAR as much harm as you think they are, other than doing their jobs. (Do the things that get ratings/ sell albums/ sell tickets.) It is the fault of the culture itself that the thug mentality is where the money is.

I started out down here blaming the kids solely for their actions, and I still hold them personally responsible for their choices - as much as I am allowed. But the more I talk to parents and the more I watch the community, the more convinced I become that it is not a problem of one or two kids or even a single generation, but it is an entire CULTURE that is this screwed up, and that culture needs to be changed.

By Jeff

October 4, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this

Mo:

I live in South GA. I work in a school where I am one of LITERALLY about 10 white people.

It is the black culture itself that needs to be changed, but if you want me to be more specific, I will say that it is the hip-hop culture. And it needs a leader.

The media aint doing NEAR as much harm as you think they are, other than doing their jobs. (Do the things that get ratings/ sell albums/ sell tickets.) It is the fault of the culture itself that the thug mentality is where the money is.

I started out down here blaming the kids solely for their actions, and I still hold them personally responsible for their choices - as much as I am allowed. But the more I talk to parents and the more I watch the community, the more convinced I become that it is not a problem of one or two kids or even a single generation, but it is an entire CULTURE that is this screwed up, and that culture needs to be changed.

By Nikole

October 4, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this

Jeff- The media is the problem if you think hip-hop culture is to blame. That means that you only know about the images that are being shown on tv and hip hop culture is much deeper than that. There is a positive aspect to hip hop, an activist segment to hip hop and an uplifting and edifying element that you know nothing about because it is not presented in mainstream media. A whole culture does not need to be changed, these kids need to be exposed to the entire element of hip hop and be offered positive choices instead of just the negative.

By Ripdog

October 4, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this

Wow, “change a culture”. I guess we still have some Bush followers here that subscribe to the Manifest Destiny way of life. The issue at hand is about individual responsibility not changing a culture. We see how that’s going in Iraq.

By Benover

October 4, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

The boy scouts are definitely one screwed up organization. Just another man boy love organization if you ask me.

By Keon Johnson

October 4, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

Keep it up Bill. It’s true that there needs to be a revolution in the African American community. This program should be mandatory in all schools. However, I would like to say that part of the problem is access. I’m not trying to excuse attitude and or negative behavior. However, Bill said something that most of the kids probably didn’t even know.

The school system does not do a good job of preparing its student for life after high school. Many are not prepared for college which is how the system is geared and less are prepared for getting a trade.

I recall mentoring a young man at summer camp once. I asked him what he wanted to do when he grew up. He promptly responded, “I want to be a baler” (Translations a sports star). I asked him why he didn’t own the team. He didn’t even know that was an option? Why not be a doctor, lawyer, or an engineer? His interest was sport so I brought that back around. “Are you familiar with physical therapists or team doctors?” He wasn’t. I let him know that someone has to pay the player he sees on television. I let him know that someone owns the stadium they play in. I let him know that someone designed and maintains that stadium. I let him know that when that player gets hurt someone has to treat him. I just wanted to broaden his perspective. Interest in sports, music, arts etc… isn’t wrong in and of itself. However there more to it than the person you see on screen or hear on the radio….

By BlindHomer

October 4, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this

It’s pretty clear from Cosby’s statements, and his audience, that he sees this as a black cultural problem. Specifically that the culture values shoes over education, slang over proper English, and that rap music in general is transmitting the wrong values. I don’t believe anyone is suggesting that these are universal black issues, rather that they are issues that impact a significant portion of his audience (“mostly black faces”). jim d is right and wrong at the same time. You can only change one kid at a time, and Cosby probably reaches and impacts several every time he speaks. But that won’t change the culture, he’s just one little boy trying to plug the dam and hold back the flood.

By V for Vendetta

October 4, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this

Maybe culture is too broad a term. Still, there is something there that needs to change. Cosby realizes this, and is trying to set a positive example to the youth. Nip it in the bud.

I agree with what Mo said about white culture as well, I think the problems are just different (doesn’t mean they are any less serious). I coach youth sports in the summer in a mostly white neighborhood; there are just as many messed up kids in that neighborhood as any other (and trust me, the money is there).

It’s true that the majority of kids (and parents) I have problems with at my school are black, but that certainly doesn’t mean they ALL are. Keep that in mind.

By JT

October 4, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

Mr. Cosby is to be admired. He obviously truly cares. His voice and his message should be heard by all. However, for some, his message will scream of accusations that will elicit a finger-pointing response. You know what I mean….”What about the white kids who do this and that?” “What about the Jewish kids…” “What about the white parents…” Mr. Cosby is black. He is speaking to his black audience. Don’t dumb down his message by trying to blame others. Accept responsibility and ownership of problems just as you eagerly accept responsibility and ownership of accolades.

By Jeff

October 4, 2006 01:36 PM | Link to this

Nikole:

I speak to what I see in my classroom every day. I LITERALLY have kids in 6th grade that BARELY know that 1 + 1 = 2, yet these same kids recognize the latest Young Joc song by the second note and are immediately up dancing to it - and they know every move! (BTW: I am one of LITERALLY 5 white people - and the only adult - in the entire 6th grade. The saddest fact of all is that because the hip hop culture is so dominant, even the white kids are buying into it by a 3:1 margin.)

By Alex

October 4, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this

You’re right, we do need to change a culture, but I think you’re being very ethnocentric in your opinion of the culture that needs changing.

We have made great strides in reducing racism in this country, but it has not been eliminated; it has merely evolved. In most places, people no longer discriminate solely on the basis of skin color. As long as you look and act “white” in your appearance, you are treated equally (sort of). Instead, discrimination is felt by individuals who continue to insist on acting or appearing “black.” Cornrows. Enyce. Platinum necklaces. The ‘fro. Baggy jeans. Rural south dialect/broken English. Oversized t-shirts. Large tire rims. You know the kind of things I’m talking about. NOTHING is inherently bad about any of these traits, but WHITE culture will not let people who display these characteristics succeed. Not everyone with a ‘fro is a gangbanger. Not everyone who listens to T.I. or N.W.A. deals drugs. But white culture perpetuates these stereotypes.

Cultural attitudes DO need to change, but it’s not only black cultural attitudes. The self-defeatist attitude associated with lower class African Americans that “I can’t succeed, even if I work hard, so I’ll just live off the system” DOES has to change; it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. But for that change to happen, the under-the-surface racism and discrimination against “black” culture symbols and icons prevalent in WHITE culture has to change as well.

By EW

October 4, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

Okay — Full disclosure — Bill Cosby paid my way through college. I was not a poor child from the ghetto, I was raised by a single mother, (who adopted me) and I worked my butt off and he rewarded my hard efforts.

His message is simply that… HARD WORK. He is a wonderful man who only wants the best for all people, however what is dear to his heart is African American people. He wants the best for them, I believe that he see’s it as a problem of us becoming extinct to a certain degree.

Yes, Mo we are a rich and diverse people, however you are living in a true fantasy land if you think that we can all speak for ourselves, we still need leadership. We still need a collective voice.

Hip hop is destroying faster than it is making a few individuals rich or giving some jobs. The total degradation of women is the very nucleus of our demise. Please come and see how these girls aspire to be strippers or video models (for lack of the term I want to use). They think you wake up one day and boom, your on a video your famous, it is truly sickening. They use the “N” word like it is a term of endearment. They have 100.00 plus shoes, but can’t buy paper, pencils and notebooks, and their on free and reduced lunch. I hate to hear the truth, but sometimes it is so needed. It hurts my heart, plus it scares me to death for my two daughters, who will they marry? What options will they have?

Bill Cosby is talking about a generational poverty that exists and the cycle is not being broken. AT ALL. I had one of my students tell me that her mother said as long as the govt. is paying for their apartment they will live there. I was so sad for her, but it sadden me as well.

We need to wake up, for those of us that have succeeded we need to realize how many paychecks we are from being in the very same predicament, and start to focus on giving back to our communities

By EW

October 4, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

Alex,

White culture perpetuates these sterotypes because the artists allow them to do so. Last time I check the only owned black cable tv station was TV One, and they dont play videos for that very reason. We must admit that we are selling our souls and then when it is time to pay we want a way out.

By Nikole

October 4, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this

Jeff-I am not disputing your observations. I am offended that you want to “change” an entire culture without having any knowledge of what the entire culture entainls. Alex made the point of combating self-defeatist attitudes and that makes more sense than trying to “change” an entire culture. And you know nothing about hip hop culture as a whole. You just know about what is put out in the mainstream media and most of your kids probably only see that much as well. The media gives attention to the controversial, so any positive aspects of the hip hop community is overshadowed by the negative.
Black children need mentors and models of people that are successful outside of sports and entertainment and then they need guidance on how to be one of those people. All the while, keeping their culture in tact.

By Nikole

October 4, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this

Also, Mr. Cosby’s graduate school thesis mentions how an environment of poverty negatively impacts a student’s education. It was true when he wrote it and it is true today.

By mo

October 4, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I can understand you being one of about 10 white kids in your school. Now, you can reverse that and you will be approximately in my position. I can say that the “White culture needs to be changed” or, more specifically, “The skateboarder culture needs to be changed” Or, the “Grunge culture needs to be changed” or the “Speed Metal culture needs to be changed.”

No. None of these cultures and or subcultures needs to be changed. That individual that is acting foolishly in our society needs to change themselves. And since I am not a part of these subcultures, I cannot simply make that judgement, because to do so would make me sound prejudiced against that culture.

See Jeff, in the instance of the Hip Hop culture there is a lot of complexity and diversity that you cannot know without being a part or at least studying it in depth. First of all, Hip Hop, as a subculture can trace itself from the Be-bop era of the late 40s and 50s. In the 60s, it became a little more formative, but it was circa 1973 when “Hip-hop” was coined as a definitive subculture.

So, to correct a negative stereotype, there are many people in the Hip hop culture that is reaching their 50s. It’s not a youth movement, hip hop never stops, Jeff. Hip hop was around long before MTV and music videos. As a movement, hip hop represented the positivity of being urban youth; the freedom and joy of expression in art, music, dance, and fashion.

Think about it: Before hip hop, brothers used to go to a concert and see guys dressed up in crazy outfits and makeup, like they came from Mars or something. And some Caucasians was caught up in the Glam Rock era; with guys looking like cross-dressers and what-not. Could a black child from the South Bronx relate to some guy dressed in a spacesuit and diapers coming out of a spaceship?

So hip hop created guys that came out in concert with jeans, T-shirts, and sneakers on; dressed just like that young black child on the corner in the South Bronx. And playing music about life with all of it’s joys, highs, great expectations, and bravado. And, of course, it’s discriminations, pain, lows, and anxieties. In short, hip hop was life.

So, hip hop is more than what you see in school. I am hip hop and I haven’t been in a high school for almost 20 years. And there are people in hip hop that is much older than myself. And to say that it needs to change is just a display of ignorance to hip hop as a culture.

Oh, and Jeff- hip hop needs no leader. You may need a leader, but hip hop is all about the individual having the strength and the voice to tell people how they really feel.

By Jeff

October 4, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

Nikole:

I aint denying that there aern’t positive aspects to hip hop. Will Smith is a BIG positive influence… yet he (and those like him) are derided as being “out of touch”.

Check this out from his latest CD; Let’s talk about rhyme capability/ Let’s talk about hip hop versatility/ Let’s talk about taking the game beyond/ Now how the hell we gon have a battle of wits/ Trick you ain’t armed/ Let’s talk about love for the game/ I mean real love/ Back before there was fame/ I’m real wit it/ I ain’t claiming to reign/ But when ya’ll talk about rap/ Ya’ll gon start saying my name/ For real though I ain’t playin/ Plenty of ya’ll love a brotha just scared to say it/ Yo the first ever rap grammy/ Let’s talk about the only reason yo a* went to Miami/ (Yup) truck wit rims (check) throw back jersey (check)/ champagne bottles (check) lot’s of models (check)/ Damn that’s the list for 90 percent of ya’ll videos and songs/ Am I wrong

What I am saying is that this isn’t the message that is getting through. It doesn’t sell. It isn’t accepted, and those that embrace the positive sides are labeled as “acting white” or worse. Where I work is OVERWHELMINGLY black dominant, the stat that I gave in an earlier psot about the 6th grade is indicative of the county overall. I have a lot og GREAT parents that are trying to defeat some of the worse aspects of this culture, all the while telling their kid to not back down in a fight, and that dropping out of HS at 16 - and giving up long before that - is completely normal and acceptable.

By Janine

October 4, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

Keon@12:53 Just a day or two ago , right here on this blog, many of us [especially teachers] pointed out the need for schools to stop “annointing’” a college degree as the only way to success. Most of us bemoaned the fact that middle schools and high schools do not even mention the options,much less define a path to get there. Our contention at the time was that that omission in the schools was contributing to our high drop out rate. I was so happy to hear Cosby [he will always be Cliff Huxtible to me] emphasize to his young audience the 80% of jobs/careers that require skills, but not a college degree. Now if he can just get that message out to the deaf and dumb educrats , we’ll be in much better shape.

By EW

October 4, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this

Mo,

You are correct in a lot of respects, however the total media take over of hip hop is what has destroyed us. Yes, I too used to love hip hop, I’m old school as they say, however now I see hip hop being used as an avenue to promote degradation of women, and people so to speak. If we want to speak on one negative alone, we can speak on the impact of what it has made on our women. There is a quote used in a Public Enemy song and it says “the true way to measure a race must be measured by the character of its women. “

It is indeed a rarity that I can turn on a video without being disgusted, or embarrassed. See this is the “culture” that is perceived to the masses… and it is our fault.

By Janine

October 4, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this

Nikole@2:24re Cosby’s thesis….Because thesis subjects must be narrow , he addressed only one aspect of environment [poverty] that negatively affects education. However, we all know that that there are many things in one’s environment that have negative effects on education…alcoholism, mental illness, abuse, and on and on…and strangely enough, many times those things, even poverty, can have a positive effect.

By Janine

October 4, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this

Speaking of disgusting hip-hop/rap…does anyone remember the song that won the Oscar last time????IT’S HARD FOR A PIMP OUT HERE !!!!!!

By Janine

October 4, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

so patti Why don’t you and the AJC take on the educrats ….Ask why they promote only going to college as a path to success….Ask why they don’t show students other ways to contribute to society and be successful and provide a path to graduation [and one out into real life] that doesn’t include Trigonometry and Physics,ete. Ask them why schools demean the “high paying trades” that Cosby mentions….

By Charles

October 4, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this

I heard an esteemed professor at Georgia State University say, “if Black people do not experience an immediate change in the way we think, we will no longer reside on planet earth. We will become extinct.”

Bill Cosby and others do not see the world out of the eyes of the great masses of black people. They have a Eurocentric conception of the world and black people which is regretful.

Briefly, education should not be presented to black children as a panacea. It should be presented as a tool used by the authorities to stupify our people in exchange for upward mobility. Failue to educate ourselves leaves us in the throws of poverty, crime, and prison for non-compliance. Choose!

From this perspective, our children will take a serious position with respect to education. They will develop the thirst for a third alternative. The power to educate our own children without interference. There will be less rote learning and people being mis-educated well beyond their means.

By mo

October 4, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this

Oh, and let me say this to help with those who are a little confused:

HIP HOP ARE NOT JUST RAPPERS!!!!!!!

In reality, many rappers are corporate folks who makes money for themselves and others who perpetuate that kind of behavior. Black people in general, and black youth in particular, are not even the target market for rappers.

No. The target market for the rappers are white, suburban youth. See, it is the white, suburban youth that actually BUYS the CDs. It is the white youth that pays the money to go to the concerts. And it is the white youth that buys their gear, even more than black youth.

So most of these crazy, outlandish songs are geared to the white youth. These rappers know who REALLY is supporting them.

But hip hop is more than just rap songs. Hip hop is in visual art. It’s in poetry. It’s in fashion. It’s in just the way you carry yourself- that inner confidence that doesn’t allow you to hold your head down.

Oh and as for music, some hip hop folks listen to this music. Me? I like Be-bop Jazz. I like the Rap music from the 80s and 90s. To me, I don’t even listen to the crap that they put on radio.

Now, that all on hip hop.

EW,

I hear you on your story, but that same mentality is in the white community, as well. I know some Caucasians that believe that the government will take care of them, and they have been right, so far. That poverty mentality is there, regardless of race. Generational poverty exists, but in other races, as well.

In short, I do not want to give an impression that these ills are specific to African-Americans. These same ills are prevelant among Caucasians, Latinos, and others.

In other words, we have a problem, but it is not unique, but it is be played as some “special” issue among us black folks. That’s a lie and those who perpetuate that stereotype is racist.

By EW

October 4, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

Janine,

Here’s the problem that all black people will have with you at this very moment. Have you heard this song, have you seen the movie in correlation to this song. I’m guessing you haven’t - so you automatically assume it is disgusting. This song - yes has the word “pimp” yes it does. A word that does have a negative connotation, however the song is telling a story of struggle and survival based on the character of a pimp in Memphis, it is a real and gritty tale that unfortunately is true in some areas. We cannot discount the TRUTH. Just as some white people deny their families involvement in the slave trade, it is just the truth - the way it was.

Do me a favor, rent the movie Hustle and Flow then make your judgments… That’s another problem soooooooo quick to judge a book by its cover.

By sue

October 4, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this

I LOVE Bill Cosby.

I think the Boy Scouts of America is a great organization.

But mostly, I want to learn to fix escalators. Do repairmen really make $65.00 an hour? That’s over $135,000.00 a year!

By EW

October 4, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this

Mo,

I believe the ills are rampant as well in other ethnicities. HOWEVER, my main concern as it relates to this topic is the African American race. So that’s what I’m discussing. Period.

By Janine

October 4, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this

EW…I have seen Hustle and Flow….and appreciate both the message and the song’s place in that movie. However, as it was an R rated movie, I doubt that many of the young people [African AMerican or Caucasian, or others] who are fixated on rap music saw it. But I venture to guess that they have undoubedly heard and bought and sung “It’s Hard for a Pimp….” ANd it’s been my observation, that though many and certainly the most popular hip hop stars are AFrican American, the music is attractive to and its messages influence many pre teen and teenagers of all ethnicities. If , as you say, black people have a problem with me because I mentioned the song, and automatically assume I don’t know anything about it….then , you know, it is what it is….However, it is not healthy for Our teenagers and pre teens, regardless of their ethnicities, to be bombarded with songs/rap of that nature.

By Janine

October 4, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

MO@3:05 As a long time teacher and observer of pre teens and teens of all races and ethnicities,it has been my experience that ,even though you say that African Am. teens are not the target audience for the music under discussion, they are, at least in my experience, equal consumers of it..and their parents are right in there forbidding them to listen to it and asking teachers to confiscate any of “that awful stuff” [their descriptions, not mine].

By BlindHomer

October 4, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

Sure there’s white generational poverty too, ever been to the hills, ridges, and valleys of West Virginia? But there are several important differences. Like the single parent birth rates and the violent crime rates caused in part by the resultant inadequate parenting. The ridge runners of W. Va. don’t kill each other at nearly the rate young black men do. It’s just a fact of human nature, readily observed in almost every civilization since history began. Those with some combination of ability, opportunity and desire rise to the top and the rest are doomed to iqnorance, poverty, and violent crime. You could redistribute all the money in the world evenly and intermarry all the so called races until we’re all one shade of tan and in 10 years there’d be poor ghettos filled with crime and ignorance.

By Jeff

October 4, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this

Let’s putit this way:

I’m from a primarily white area in North GA. (Nowhere near the dominance of the balcks in the county I work, but still majority white… call it 60/40)

At the HS my youngest bro still attends, they MIGHT have a pregnancy rate of 5%. (It may be slightly higher or slightly lower, I don’t know, but 5 is a decent guess.) You MIGHT see one or two in the hall or at a game, but more often than not any pregnant women you see are adults.

Come down to predominantly black South GA county I work in now: In our MAYBE 50 member BAND, I SAW 3 clearly pregnant girls and 5 or 6 more that clearly had at least one child of their own.

Now I ask you: How many teenagers can honestly support ONE child on their own? Answer: Not very many

See what is wrong here??

By jim d

October 4, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

Yeah Jeff I do.

You’re spending way too much time looking at the girls.

By Jeff

October 4, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

jim:

Dude, don’t go there. I do my best to be extremely observant everywhere I am. It helps on a variety of fronts. One thing I DON’T mess around with is looking at students in the way you are implying.

By lynn d

October 4, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

I think it is about access as Keon wrote. So many students go to school with only other students like themselves that they can’t learn about the real options that are out there.

Imagine schools that were integrating based on family income… real diversity might equal real access and real equity.

By Alex

October 4, 2006 04:44 PM | Link to this

Those with some combination of ability, opportunity and desire rise to the top and the rest are doomed to iqnorance, poverty, and violent crime. You could redistribute all the money in the world evenly and intermarry all the so called races until we’re all one shade of tan and in 10 years there’d be poor ghettos filled with crime and ignorance.

Good work BlindHomer: social darwinism at its purest. That’s exactly what you would like isn’t it? I’m sure Rockafeller and JP Morgan would be proud. Unfortunately, that’s not quite how it works. Wealth is not evenly distributed, and the earth is filled with people with skin of all different shades. Humans with wealth and power are going to hold on to that wealth and power they can, and if that means discriminating on the basis of skin color to form in-groups and out-groups, then that’s what they’re gonna do. I believe that as privileged members of society, having attained a certain degree of moral development, we have a moral obligation to redistribute the wealth and end discrimination and negative stereotypes.

Why? We are not wealthy and powerful because we “pulled ourselves up by our own bootstraps. We may have had the ability and power you speak of, but most importantly, we had the opportunity; and your opportunities and life-chances have very little to do with hard work/ability, but instead with the society into which you were born.

If, for hypothetical reasons, wealth was redistributed and racial phenotypes eliminated, I believe you would be right; by human nature, a underclass would soon develop. But these people wouldn’t be forced into this class by virtue of their lack of hard work/ability. They would be forced there because a production-driven capitalist society necessitates a division/specialization of labor. If we were all rational, morally upright individuals with aspirations for the common good, these inequalities wouldn’t develop with the specialization of labor - and socialism would work just fine. Instead, we are selfish, greedy, and ego-centric (is that human nature or a product of the system….. a whole other debate). If you are content with these inadaquacies and inequalities, then fine, but I’m not. And that is why I believe instead we must depend on the welfare state.

By jim d

October 4, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Sorry Dude.

Let me see if I read your post right though. Your brothers school has a rate of expectant mothers that is somewhere areond 5% and in your current situation you’ve noticed 3 girls out of 50 are soon to be moms. Was that it?

Wait a minute 3/50 = 6% doesn’t it? Appears things are the same all over to me.

By SET

October 4, 2006 05:07 PM | Link to this

I love the escalator repair comment.

I have long said that getting kids out of their comfort zone and into something completely foreign to them is a good idea - even if the first avenue leads to nothing maybe they won’t be so afraid to try something new.

I’ve seen adolescents who are (physically) afraid to order anything new off a restaurant menu. They’d go through their lives only eating the food Mommy gave them.

If our public schools would ever get off the one-size-fits-all policy they have, maybe we could start referring non-academic oriented 15 year olds to escalator repair school. Or maybe just make them rig a (old, cheap) sailboat and race.

They’d have a little less energy to get into trouble with if they were kept on their toes at “school”.

By SET

October 4, 2006 05:14 PM | Link to this

Alex: I’ve got news for you. Discrimination is irrelevant to wealth accumulation.

The best research indicates that IQ and culture overcomes everything to produce wealth in any society. Redistribute all you want. The money still flows back to where it belongs.

Anybody crying about “Racism” or “Discrimination” holding them back is a loser who can’t produce. It’s a lesson of history.

(One good place to start reading is Thomas Sowell’s “Ethnic America” - an economic history of American Ethnics)

By SET

October 4, 2006 05:28 PM | Link to this

Charles: I reread your comment and I think it begs for a response.

Western Civilization is responsible for every advance in living standards on the face of the earth. Afro-Centric anything gets you exactly what you see in sub-sahara Africa. A one-story mud hut.

Those who can’t deal with this reality are perfectly free to dance around a campfire and celebrate Kawanza or whatever.

Try selling your view of Afro anything to Africian immigrants - from Nigera, Ethiopia, especially the West Indians such as the Jamaicans. They certainly have none of the illusions popular among orthodox American Blacks about the way the world works. My Eithopian relatives despise urban American Blacks and consider them eternal children. They are very busy networking with each other and those whites and blacks that they can do (increasingly more sophisticated) business with.

So not everybody, black or white, cares to see anything out of the eyes of the black masses. It doesn’t pay to do so.

Brave New World!

By Charles

October 4, 2006 05:38 PM | Link to this

An esteemed Georgia State University professor once said, “If black people do not change the way we think, we will no longer reside on planet earth. We will become extinct”.

I am grateful that Mr. Bill Cosby toned down the rhetoric. Well, the Atlanta newspapers indicated that he did so. Mr. Bill Cosby and others see the world out of the eyes of Europeans instead of seeing the world out of the eyes of African.

Briefly, education in America should not be presented to our children as a panacea. It should be presented as a tool used by the authorities to stupefy black people in exchange for the possibility of up-ward mobility. Failue to educate or stupefy ourselves in America leaves us in the throws of poverty, crime, and prison. Choose!

Given this perspective, our children will develop a serious thirst for a third alternative; the power to educate our own children without interference. There will be less rote learning and people being mis-educated well beyond their means.

I hope Mr. Bill Cosby and others will seriously reconsider their position.

By BlindHomer

October 4, 2006 05:53 PM | Link to this

Alex - My father came to this country in the bottom of a boat, in what you might recognize from the Titanic, which sailed a few years later, as ‘steerage’, and I worked my way through college in a factory and into a middle class lifestyle. Everyone of those kids in the APS has plenty of opportunity, primarily free education, all the way through college if they have the intellectual capacity. It’s the ones in the shallow end of the gene pool, white, brown, or black, that are doomed to poverty. All Cosby said was that they didn’t have to have 140 IQ’s, they just have to have appropriate goals and work toward them. It’s not discrimination and lack of opportunity holding them back, I couldn’t disagree with you more. BTW there are a few countries, primarily Scandanavian, that use 60% tax rates to re-distribute the wealth the way you advocate. Having a homogenous population and lacking motivation they resort to suicide and alcoholism in large numbers, rather than killing each other with handguns.
Brave New World, as SET always says.

By Charles

October 4, 2006 06:02 PM | Link to this

Set..

You have a wonderful name. Although you failed to miserably to respond to my comment. Is it the education? Our children will be able to adequately respond to a comment if we decide to educate them properly.

By Jeff

October 4, 2006 06:13 PM | Link to this

Charles:

The racism so evident in your post is exactly what I encounter at work every day…. from the very people trying to paint me as racist.

Go Figure.

By Charles

October 4, 2006 06:24 PM | Link to this

Jeff…

I don’t think you set up the educational system. I don’t think you understand how it impacts black people. Look at my comment concerning Bill Cosby. Now look at Set’s response to it. Totally non-responsive. Yet, he thinks he is responding to the comment. I just want black children to be better prepared than that.

By SET

October 4, 2006 06:36 PM | Link to this

Charles, please restate your question so I can try to answer it with more clarity.

It appeared that you were complaining that Bill Cosby’s perspective was not Afro-Centric enough. Thus my response.

By Jeff

October 4, 2006 06:41 PM | Link to this

Charles:

There is responding to a comment… then there is responding to a comment.

You can look at the surface, or you can delve deepter.

You are correct, as I read it, SET did not respond to your comment…. on the surface. Instead, he looked at your overall argument and began exposing the flaws in your paradigm, rather than your object. The same could be said about my comment that your post was racist. On the surface, it is, but very mildly, so mild that I could very well have misread it, and if I did, I do apologize. But delving deeper, one can clearly see from your perspective that “eurocentric” is your code for “devil incarnate”, which is a clear case of racism.

By Charles

October 4, 2006 06:49 PM | Link to this

Set. Here is my comment:

An esteemed Georgia State University professor once said, “If black people do not change the way we think, we will no longer reside on planet earth. We will become extinct”.

I am grateful that Mr. Bill Cosby toned down the rhetoric. Well, the Atlanta newspapers indicated that he did so. Mr. Bill Cosby and others see the world out of the eyes of Europeans instead of seeing the world out of the eyes of African.

Briefly, education in America should not be presented to our children as a panacea. It should be presented as a tool used by the authorities to stupefy black people in exchange for the possibility of up-ward mobility. Failue to educate or stupefy ourselves in America leaves us in the throws of poverty, crime, and prison. Choose!

Given this perspective, our children will develop a serious thirst for a third alternative; the power to educate our own children without interference. There will be less rote learning and people being mis-educated well beyond their means.

I hope Mr. Bill Cosby and others will seriously reconsider their position.

By SET

October 4, 2006 06:51 PM | Link to this

Another thought on Cosby’s escalator remark - the repairman himself will not be paid $65 an hr but the employer will be able to bill $65/hr for the presense of the employee.

Basically even a non-academic student can become skilled or specialized labor rather than the nothing (unskilled labor) a typical male high school dropout is.

All the more reason for our public schools to provide a route into the trades for those who can’t handle an academic track. And we need to stop fantasizing that “Everybody can go to college” and replace that with “Not Everybody can graduate from high school” - which is reality.

The left side of the Bell Curve doesn’t have enough brainpower in abstract thinking to handle high school level academics - only K-8 academics. After that they need to programs that use their strenghts in timing, spacial concepts, vision, physical agility and strenght. Like Escalator repair. In the process they can learn important social skills such as pack position, chain of command, and uniform wearing.

A 40 something co-worker and her husband of 15 years just moved into a $800K, 5 acre ranch they bought. He grew up in a trailer park, dropped out of high school at 10th grade and avoided getting an GED. He’s skilled labor. She’s a paraprofessional. He wears a uniform and punches a timeclock. He makes more than she does. Yes they flipped CA real estate and yes they had some family help. They are happy, their kids are happy, and the cat and dog are happy.

I want our CA public school kids to have these opportunities (He came from out of state). But it all starts with a real good (High School) apprentice program. And good housebreaking.

By Charles

October 4, 2006 06:57 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Your comment can really confuse and audience seeking understanding and clarity.

Jeff I can assure you that my code for the devil incarnate is not eurocentric. My code for the devil incarnate is Satan, Jin,the tempter, the destroyer, the power of evil, the great deceiver, the author of confusion.

By KA

October 5, 2006 08:28 AM | Link to this

Mr. Cosby is speaking to his ethnic family about goal setting. But, as some of you have pointed out, his message is one that all young people should listen to and benefit from. IMHO Mr. Cosby’s message is simply one of assuming personal responsibility. In America it doesn’t matter what your heritage, family history or ethnic culture is, because it is up to each one of us to write our own history, and live our own lives of success or failure. Opportunities here are abundant, and many recent immigrants recognize that and work very hard to achieve educational, economic and social success, while maintaining their ethnic culture and pride. Many of these immigrants, from all points of the globe, are fleeing from areas of active war, famine, disease, poverty, and hopelessness. These newcomers find hope here in America and thrive because their spirits are strong. Mr. Cosby’s message is not for these people. His message is for the poor in spirit of any culture, those who don’t recognize that success or failure is all a matter of personal responsibility, of individual action and work, of mutual support within families, and within communities. Kumbaya y’all.

By EW

October 5, 2006 09:38 AM | Link to this

I agree that it is about access. I have students who have never left the city - nor the state. I was so lucky as a student in high school that I traveled the world with the Olympic program it was a true blessing… It open my eyes to new and interesting worlds. Now, you can tell right off the back when they walk in what type of world they live in. I make it a point to take my students to see Alvin Ailey ever year, because I want them to see US doing more than rapping and playing with a ball. Most of them are so appreciative they crave for more.

Most of my parents are consumed with just making ends meat that they don’t get out and experience life. This is the result of terrible life choices that they made as young people. This is what I teach my students, the decisions you make today will shape your future tomorrow.

By Black Chic

October 5, 2006 09:51 AM | Link to this

Talk is cheap. Black people don’t need a new leader. We don’t need someone to stand up on a soap box and tell us what we already now. Changes need to be made NOW. Don’t talk about it, be about.

It’s not hip hop or television that is bringing us down. We are bringing us down. We need a solid, strong foundation that starts at home. It’s easy to blame music or culture or economics for problems that have plagued our comminities for years. The fact of the matter is we are not investing in ourselves or in our children.

By SNY

October 5, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this

Okay, I know that you all are going to blast me for this but I have to ask it anyway:

How do you teach personal responsibility? My mother never had to teach me to be responsible. I just was. I am trying very hard to help my 15 year old goddaughter and I am failing badly. Her mother left her with her stepfather and he is trying to raise her and her 12 year old brother and 8 year old sister by himself. So I took it upon myself to help this child through her teenage years. The problem is, she doesn’t want to take responsibility for anything. Even my 8 year old daughter had noticed it. I try to tell her that it is up to her to make sure she understands what is going on in class and her response to me is that the teacher didn’t say she had to know this or that specific material. Wouldn’t common sense tell a child that if the teacher covered it in class, then they needed to know it? Am I being naive or are times that different?

Nothing is ever her fault and I am getting so discouraged. She never does anything wrong and all of the authority figures in her life never do anything right. How do I try to change this?

She says that she wants to be a lawyer but she failed 9th grade English last year and is taking it now with the rest of her 10th grade classes. She doesn’t like to do research and she is lazy. How do I try to help her search for a different career? I don’t want to discourage her from being successful and she is not on the wrong side of bell curve. She has the brain power, I just don’t know how to motivate her.

Help me?

By EW

October 5, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this

SNY,

It is not you it is a total epidemic! Children today don’t want to take responsibility because MOST times their parents aren’t doing it either, I think it is a learned behavior. It is either the white mans fault or something else, no personal responsibility for life choices that are made. I also think today children have a lost sense of reality of what it takes to succeed. They don’t understand the work involved, they think someone is going to give them a pass because they grew up in the ghetto, or had a mother on crack or a mother that abandoned them – I tell them that doesn’t work. For example, I have a female student whose mother is on crack, because she doesn’t want to do something I asked her to do, she screams my mother is a crackhead! You know what I said, SO? What does that have to do with you doing my quiz? I told her that just because her mother had messed her life up was she going to allow her mothers addiction to mess her up? I understand that she was going to have some challenges; however she was not at that very moment going to use that as an excuse.

I commend you for trying – just keep pushing her – she will get it together.

By KA

October 5, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this

SNY, Teaching responsibility starts with creating a system of accountability, including clear cut rules and consequences for broken rules. A fifteen year old is usually still dependent on adults for shelter, food and clothing. If she doesn’t respect property and rules then the supervising and caretaking adults must consistently impose consequences for her irresponsible actions. Strip all privileges, provide her with only the basics, then outline to her how privileges and freedoms can be restored. Hopefully these become incentives to her for good performance, clean room, proper manners, attendance at school, good grades, etc. No extras, just the basics until she learns to become responsible.

By KA

October 5, 2006 10:39 AM | Link to this

SNY, I forgot to add that LOVE is the glue that will get her motivated. Tough love, but love. You must tell her that you want her to love and respect herself and others, and only then will she want to help herself and others.

By SNY

October 5, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

EW and KA,

Thanks for the advise but isn’t 15 too old to start that? I mean, my daughter knows these things and she will be 9 tomorrow! (Happy Birthday, baby!!)

My goddaughter knows that I love her but she gets so angry and upset when someone tries to hold her accountable for anything. It’s like she feels that she is entitled to things because she is alive. I keep trying to tell her that no one owes her a thing. If she wants success, she has to work for success. I don’t think that she believes me. Then I have her school just passing her through without holding her responsible either. Trust me teachers, those of us parents that want you to hold our children responsible are just as frustrated with the administration as you are. The admin just keep passing her along although I know she is not ready to be moved. I don’t know how to handle that either.

By KA

October 5, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this

SNY, A fifteen year old is still a child, impressionable and teachable. Tell her your story. Tell her what motivated you as a child and teenager and now as an adult and mother. What lessons did you learn that you can pass onto her? Make it personal for her. Teach her about your self respect what is important to you, and maybe she will learn to respect herself. Tell her that only she can live her life and so she must choose the life she wants to live, one of blaming and whining and failing, or a life of learning, succeeding, loving and giving. forgte a bond with her. Tell her that you need her help in something, maybe a family project, and give her a job to do that will give her a sense of accomplishment, and self-worth. 15 is not too late! IMO, one is never too old to learn. Don’t give up! Be there for her and tell her that you are here to support her and listen to her, and also to push her to grow and be responsible and be her best.

By KA

October 5, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

SNY, It’s important that you ACT in a POSITIVE manner with her and DON’T REACT in a NEGATIVE way to her negative views and comments. Ask her sit down with you and discuss what’s going on in her life, and map out a strategy together to get her there. Tell her excuses, whining and negativity are not allowed. She must state everyting in the positive, If there is aproblem, look for solutions, If there is failure, look for answers to avoid that failure again. Tell her that you will be there to give her a helping hand, but not a hand out. She must learn to earn what she thinks she deserves.

By mo

October 5, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

Janine,

As someone who has been in the music business back in the 80-90s, and as someone who follows the industry, I can tell you that African-American youth is not the target audience.

It is a fact in the industry that rap music is geared to white youth due to their consumption habits. Even though a lot of black youth may listen and even purchase the music, it is the white youth that is the MAIN consumers of rap music.

I was as shocked as many who are reading this post the first time when a prominent producer and an A&R rep from a major label pretty much told me who the target audience was in regards to rap music. I was floored!

Now it is common knowledge among industry executives. And shame on those artists who participate in the perpetuation of the stereotype…

Oh, and for the record, most of the rappers out there do not… repeating… DO NOT live the way you see on music videos. There’s a huge difference in being rich and being famous.

By SNY

October 5, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

KA,

Thanks for the advice. I spoke with a friend today who knows a lawyer and we are going to have my goddaughter go and talk with this lawyer. I want her to hear, first hand, how much work goes into just becoming a lawyer. Then I want her to see exactly what lawyers do all day. She seems to think that lawyers spend all of their time in the courtroom. She is in for a rude awakening, IMHO. I want her to see that she has to work for everything. I hope this works.

By abc

October 5, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

SNY - I recall you blasting teachers last year, and this year you said that you aspire to be one. Now, you say that you cannot teach one child (who is personally linked to you) personal responsibility? Now can you imagine having up to 35 of these angels in your class - who are not linked to you at all? I think you owe all of the teachers you spoke ill of a HUGE apology!

By Dan

October 5, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

ABC you took the words out of my mouth. I have tried to get through to SNY before but it was pointless. I personally hope that she continues to struggle. Reep what you sew.

By SNY

October 5, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this

abc,

No, what I’m saying is that at 15 years old, this particular child, who has not been linked to me her whole life, is having trouble being taught responsibility. Remember, I am only trying to help out a friend.

As for giving an apology to the teachers about what I have experience, I WILL NOT!! I will not apologize for telling the truth. You must be twisted and confused if you think that I am going to take back what I said about the teachers that were in my daughters’ life last year. They were and still are idiots. I don’t care if you like it or not.

As for the child that I am totally responsible for, I have no problems with her taking personal responsibility. All I have to do is look at her and she will say it out loud, “I know, it’s my fault. I should be more responsible.” She knows the rules and she tries hard to live and abide by them. Of course she is only 9 (tomorrow) and she will mess up, but she understands the concept. I refuse to be totally responsible for my goddaughter. I didn’t make her this way, I am only trying to help her as best I can. For the record, I have no experience dealing with teenagers, so for all I know, they are all like this.

Try that apology crap with someone else, abc. I’m not the one for it.

By Jeff

October 5, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

Charles:

With humans, there are ALWAYS at LEAST two levels of communication: What is being physically spoken, and what is actually going on in that person’s head.

Look at the example of the jewish carpenter from 2000 years ago (you know the one):

People would ask him a question, and he “would not respond to their comment” - in your words.

Instead, he responded to their comment. The comment that their heart made.

I’m trying to get better and better at ignoring what a child physically says to me and responding to their heart. That is exactly what both SET and I were doing. Ignoring your physical comment, and cuting straight to the heart of the matter.

By Jeff

October 5, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this

KA @ 8:58a and Black Chic:

Well said. Amen.

By SNY

October 5, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

Dan,

I could personally give a grap less what you hope for me and my future. You don’t know me or my family and you never will. If you haven’t lived what I have, then don’t speak on me. The problems that I had with the public school system in Gwinnett County are over. I don’t speak on them anymore and I didn’t bring them back up. I don’t even know who you are. When have you ever tried to get through to me? Not that I give a d**n!!

BTW, I do believe that I have apologized for the drastic generalizations that I made before. Ask Gwinnett Teacher, she will tell you and so will KA, Jim D., and SET. It’s like SET says, I had choices and I utilized one of them. My baby is back in private school.

BTW everyone else, we have had absolutely ZERO problems this year. She is having a great time and she’s actually learning something. I know not all of you like the idea of private school, but it truly does work for my child and that is the only child experience that I can speak on.

By abc

October 5, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this

Dan - I knew SNY wouldn’t be mature enough to TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for her actions, but, I just had to get under her skin - it’s so easy!

She should become a teacher like I should become a center in the NBA! (I’m really short with no basketball skills!)

By SNY

October 5, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

abc,

What are you talking about? I do take personal responsibility for my actions which is exactly why I did apologize earlier this summer for my drastic generalizations of teachers. What I am not taking responibility for is the way that Gwinnett County handled the situations with my daughter. I am not responsible for their stupidity and I will not take the blame for it. Period. You give me a GOOD example of something that I need to take responsibility for and IF I was in the wrong, I will take responsility for it.

By dan

October 5, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

SNY You say Gwinnett County like it is one unit. You say you apologized for your over generalization but here you go again over generalizing. I am part of Gwinnett County but I don’t know your child nor you.

By luvs2teach

October 5, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this

Off-topic - SNY (and others), just thought you’d like to know, the Metro RESA will be accepting applications for their TAPP program this upcoming February. Their website is www.mresa.org

BTW - on topic - I teach at a VERY diverse school, and I see this behavior (not accepting personal responsibility) from students of all race and socio-economic backgroud.

It has more than one cause, I think - not only poor behavior modeled by irresponsible parents, but also well-meaning but misguided parents who don’t let their kids suffer the consequence of a poor choice.

Example - the parent I have who regularly leaves work to bring her (middle school) child the lunch she forgot - often more than once a week!

Let that child go hungry a time or two, and she might have incentive to remember. JMHO.

By dan

October 5, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

back to the original post. I teach in a great school with great kids of all ethnicities. All kids need to face reality sometime about what it takes to become successful. Cosby is primarily talking to African America students. IMO a large majority are in desperate need for guidance. What they see and follow is not reality. I speak to all my kids daily about making great choices and living up to their potential. Celebrties need to step up to the plate and offer guidance. Especially those men of color that have a message to bring.

By SNY

October 5, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this

Dan,

You say Gwinnett County as if it isn’t one unit. The school that my daughter attended was in Gwinnett County. The county made the policies and stuck to them. The County opted to retain this teacher and the County is fully responsible for their employee. What am I missing? Honestly, what am I missing? I am not trying to be sarcastic. When I say Gwinnett County, I am no longer speaking of all of the teachers like I used to. I am speaking of the employees that I dealt with specifically. Whether they are in the school or in the big office. I wasn’t satisfied. That particular school and that particular teacher did not meet my expectations nor were they pleasant to deal with at all. So, I took my business elsewhere and my daughter is all the better for it. What is so wrong with that?

By HB

October 5, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

SNY, you haven’t said anything unfair here today. Dan and abc obviously are upset about some things you said in the past (I remember reading your apologies quite a while back, so it’s time to move on) and have decided to try to find fault with everything little thing you say just to get under your skin as abc stated above. Please just ignore them — don’t get pulled into their childish game.

By Gail

October 5, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this

I think that this problem of lack of motivation and responsibility does exist among all races. I think the problems are exacerbated among blacks because with so many blacks living in poverty, they have fewer chances to make up these differences. If I’m a teenager living in an affluent (or white) home and I make a bad mistake, I have a much better chance of being able to right myself and still come out okay. When a teen living in a poor (or black) home/ neighborhood makes a bad mistake, it is a lot more difficult to overcome that mistake due to the limited resources available to that teen.

Case in point: If I get in trouble with the law, my rich white daddy can get me a good lawyer and get me out of it. Then I have an OPPORTUNITY to use that as a teaching experience and move on, hopefully to more responsible behavior. That doesn’t happen too often in the ‘hood. I might go to boot camp and end up with a big, black mark on my record.

By SNY

October 5, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

HB,

You’re right and thanks for remembering my apologies.

Gail,

That is true. But we have got to get these kids to understand that making the mistake in the beginning can be disastrous to their lives in the future. What we as adults need to remember though, is that we were kids once as well. Kids are suppose to mess up once in awhile. That is how they learn.

By Gail

October 5, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

Hi, SNY I agree that kids are supposed to mess up once in a while. Unfortunately, there are a lot of kids in our society today that can’t afford even one serious mistake. If they make the wrong mistake, due to their circumstances, sometimes they can never overcome it. And they may be lost forever.

If my teen daughter got pregnant for example, she would still be able to finish high school and go on to college because she would have family to help her. However, she has classmates at school who get pregnant and they may never graduate high school because of it.

There was a special on TV about a school in Jackson, Mississippi a few weeks ago where a motivated teen got pregnant and ended up dropping out. Her guardian wanted her to take responsibility for her child, which is very important, but the girl could not stay home and take care of a baby AND go to school at the same time. Not to mention trying to work to support the baby financially.

My husband won’t admit it, but if my daughter got pregnant and had a baby, we would probably be able to pay for day care so she could finish school. And that’s the thin line between a high school graduate and a high school dropout.

Gotta run.

By nel

October 5, 2006 05:43 PM | Link to this

Have to say that the culture change might be the appropriate description. How many times have you heard so called leaders and radio ‘personalities’ speak out against changes within the culture the are a benefit to these kids. Why do they support boys wearing their pants below their behinds as an expression of their culture. Whose culture? Most black folks didn’t do time in jail and didn’t wear those lowriders to signal their “availability” to the other inmates, so what’s the point? Black American culture in particular is slipping away and it needs more than Cosby out there talking about it. Remember the pressure Spike Lee got for his movie about light skin good hair/versus dark skin bad hair? How far we haven’t come.

By Dan

October 6, 2006 08:22 AM | Link to this

gail Some of your examples are true (if grossly over played) but the point is those situations that you claim are “mistakes once in a while” are still due to choices one makes and contrary to popular belief you don’t get sent to jail or boot camp for one offense (unless it is a violent crime) and the amount of “rich kids” that can have their families pay their way out is to small to be part of the equation. Remember rich isn’t about how much you have it is about being in the top 5 or 10% of wage earners so by definition it is a small amount. Sounds like feeling a tad guilty about your families money blinds you to reality

By Gail

October 6, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this

Dan I agree that we are all responsible for our choices. All I’m saying is that sometimes the same bad choice has a greater consequence for a disadvantaged child than for one from an affluent or even middle class family. While that’s not fair, it IS life. And if we’re looking at changing things for those kids, there are special issues that need to be addressed for those kids.

While your comment about my so-called “guilt” is a little personal, I’ll address it. I didn’t literally mean I had a rich white daddy. I am by no means rich, but that doesn’t mean we couldn’t rustle up the money for day care if it were necessary to keep my daughter in school.

By KA

October 6, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this

Gail and Dan, Short term, a rich kid may get dodge consequences easier than a poor kid. However, thinking long term, money is not the determining factor in bailing a teen out of his bad choice consequences. What matters is teaching the kid to think ahead about the consequences of his actions, learning about cause and effect, and taking responsibility for his choices. That requires intervention, guidance and supervision by an adult; a parent, teacher, social worker, clergy, someone who cares.

By SET

October 6, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this

SNY: I’m late getting into the discussion on the Goddaughter. My appraisal is that she does not have the brainpower and is on the left side of the bell curve. This is why she is apparently unable to make any connection between the values of research and work and getting what she wants. This aspect of her psyche may cause more trouble later.

Have her evaluated professionally to determine IQ and aptitude. Armed with the results it should be easier to find something that will work. This process should be explained to the girl as a career search - which it is.

Becoming a lawyer (effectively) requires that the candidate have at least a certain IQ. There are IQ bands for everything from NFL quarterback to file clerk. Whatever she is there are a large number of occupations that are a reasonable fit. Other psych tests will indicate which occupation is a good match for her personality and interests.

If you do find that she is mismatched with lawyer let her know the test results and let her understand that if she still wants to pursue law school there have to be changes made in her (which she’ll be unwilling to make).

I tried to talk a cousin into law school. She had her 4 year degree and could have easily been admitted to a Univ of CA grad school. Fortunately she went into banking and has a career I could only have dreamed of (National/International banking). She’s younger that I and her job didn’t exactly exist when I was younger. I couldn’t see her other opportunities 25 years ago.

The perfect match for your goddaughter may not be visible to you at the moment - she is still very young. The main thing to do at 15 is keep options open and plan for the most useful 4 year degree.

I’ve encouraged students to seriously consider graduate psychology school - I think there is a good future in that field - long work career, relatively high pay, ability to cross state lines easily, and tax advantages not available to wage earners.

By SNY

October 6, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

SET,

Thanks for your comments. However, since the poor child has had a terrible role model in her mother, I am first going to talk to her teachers and her counselors. Fnd out what they think and start from there. I am also going to find out how to get her an IQ test. That is a wonderful suggestion and I thank you for it. After that, I think it is just a matter of staying on her and making her be responsible. Making her take responsibility for the things that she does. Put her in church and show her some much needed guidance. Her father did the best he could with her but since the same sex parent is the biggest role model, she is in trouble. This poor child’s mother decided to leave her with her stepfather and run off to do drugs, prostitute and party. Considering the girl has seen this most of her life (at least the drugs and partying) it is no wonder that she thinks that she can do what she wants when she wants and get away with it. But, I’m in the picture now and I hope to change her thinking. She knows what she wants to do, now we just have to sit down and write out a game plan to make it happen. Trust me, the girl has the brain power. She is very imaginative and bright. She is just a little misguided.

I think that many of these kids are misguided. Some are bad and a few are terrible. It is the terrible ones that make it horrible for the rest of them.

By SET

October 6, 2006 06:36 PM | Link to this

SNY: Be sure to look up the recent book “Piece of Cake” by Cupcake Brown which is an autobiography of a black female San Francisco Attorney who was a member of the Crips (Murder & Narcotics Inc.!) gang (terrible background). There are reviews of the book on the internet and Amazon.Com - and Cupcake Brown has her own website. She should have been dead several times over or in prison - but she wound up practicing corporate law in San Francisco somehow. I’ve read the book but not met the author.

By my earlier comment I meant to say it is unlikely the girl in question would become a lawyer. Anything is possible - but at a cost. The question is whether or not the girl wants to pay the price.

Risk taking and ruthlessness can be used to get into this profession when you were otherwise not a likely candidate. I’ve seen it. But it’s not clear anymore if this is a better choice than other things the same energy can reach. Part of the problem is lifestyle and society issues. Who and what do you want to be part of, and whose rules do you want to start living by? - It’s why Brown’s autobiography is an interesting read.

There was a lot of freedom being a gang girl she no longer has as a practicing attorney.

My banker cousin has been living her wildest dream for 15 years now. She would not have lived this life as an attorney. (She’s lived around the world and around the USA - lavish travel, etc.) On the other hand as an attorney she might have had a more stable if less adventurous life.

It all starts with a 4 year degree in something useful!

By SET

October 6, 2006 06:47 PM | Link to this

SNY: Another thought - if this girl is alive and has her health she is no object of pity. I noticed your “poor child” comment above - be careful, those thoughts have a way of getting around and creeping into the girl’s mind. She’s here and she’s alive and you expect everything from her.

I’ve seen people from rotten childhoods do amazing things once they run out of pity and get hungry or ambitious or both.

They still might be jerks but they can be amazing, self sufficient jerks. What doesn’t kill you can make you stronger.

By SNY

October 9, 2006 08:48 AM | Link to this

SET,

I just spoke with my goddaughters school counselor and they don’t give IQ tests in school in GA unless she is a behavioral problem for the school. I could not believe that. So now I have to find another way to get her tested. Any ideas where to start?

By EW

October 9, 2006 09:08 AM | Link to this

SNY,

If you complain or speak loud enough you can get her tested. Please tell them the about the instability of her current situation, make some noise — you will get it done. Don’t take no for an answer, you are her advocate! I see everyday where we test students who have no business being tested; they are just plain BAD, not ADHD or EBD however we might have to test them to pacify the juvenile system. It’s crazy…

I believe that you are doing the right thing, speak to all of her teachers and ask her teachers to put her on some sort of action plan where you, her, and the teacher hold each a responsibility. I agree with SET, yes she has a terrible mother, BUT don’t allow that to become an excuse for you and her — push her to use it as a motivation. She could end up being one of the brightest lawyers ever — she can do it, you are helping her, she has to help herself.

By SNY

October 9, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this

EW,

Thanks for your support. Sometimes I just want to quit on this child but I know that she can do it.

I will keep making noise but Gwinnett County and be hard to deal with. They only want to do things their way and they refuse to see another side to things. Everything with them is either black or white and life just isn’t that way.

By SET

October 9, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

SNY:

I frequently deal with licensed clinical psychologists in some of my cases. Whenever I want any kind of testing done they can arrange it - or know how to get it done. Also her approx score can be determined by other common tests - such as the SAT. There are conversion charts on the internet as well as examples of NFL screening tests that convert to IQ.

The US Military and the NFL are the biggest users of IQ in job placement. They have a band of scores for every position.

Public schools are often quite happy to discuss IQ with white families but pretend the scores and usages don’t exist when black familes appear. You might want to have white friends contact the same school system and ask the same questions just to see if you get different responses. If I’m correct it will be confirmed that you have to deal with issue yourself with no help from the Educrats. It is very politically incorrect to test black children because Educrat dogma is that all people are created alike - so it’s heresy to test (blacks, anyway).

My interests in determining her score is to explore career placement. Once you are on notice that she has a certain score you can see for yourself what the odds (and issues) are in the various career paths. Forewarned is forearmed. The rest is largely up to her. Does she want a “reach” career path or does she want something more “traditional” for her score? What price is she willing to pay for career? Some are willing to defer certain pleasures for their reach career and some absolutely will not.

Cosby’s escalator repair comment intrigues me because I see hordes of males and females 18 to 38 who worked real hard to become unskilled labor. They have no money for a car, for health care, for decent housing - and no insight at all their their lazy shiftless behavior made all this happen to them. Their parents have everything - why can’t the kids just “have” them??

Brave New World!

By SNY

October 9, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

Thanks,

I’ll check on the school thing today. I’ll also call a counselor from her fathers insurance and see what they can add.

By Pamela Grillet

October 11, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this

You discredit your newspaper. Please do not print one more word about the Runaway Bride! We are so sick of her.

By KA

October 11, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

Pamela, Are you lost? Wrong blog, sweetie.