By KA

October 3, 2006 09:00 AM | Link to this

Patti, I think your teacher friend is wrong to drop pop quizzes! Pop quizzes are designed to find out who is prepared for class, and who is not. It is also a useful tool for the student to see how the teacher tests, his format and style of questions. Pop quizzes back in my day didn’t count for much in the grading, so you could blow a couple, but a good pop quiz average could make the difference on final grades (pushing your grade up to that B or A). I think students benefit from pop quizzes, especially the ones they fail, because then they know where they need more study.

By jim d

October 3, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this

Patti,

I have no problem with pop quizzes, but then I have no problem with not having them either.

I think your teacher friend already knows which students are doing their work and that is really about all that can be gained from these tests. I doesn’t take a college degree to understand if a student isn’t doing the work they are going to struggle to pass the course.

I must admit though that when I was in school most of the teachers had one stashed in their desk for those days when we would come in to class a bit on the rowdy side. It always seemed to have a calming effect when they’d tell us to put our books away and get out a number two pencil.

By Janine

October 3, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

Another episode in the melodrama of “The Dumbing Down of American Schools”! You know, even if I told my students that we were going to have a quiz on the assigned reading for the night before, most did not pass…and the questions were so basic, so simple. I agree with your friend. The administrators would drag you in after the first parent complaint to tell you that you must offer “the opportunity to succeed” and that a pop quiz is does not fit into that category. What does.??//…I have said before, we were given suggestions of “providing opportunities to succeed” ….Giving points for bringing back signed papers, for bringing pencils and paper to class…other things that have nothing to do with actual academics. ANd ALWAYS>>ALWAYS.. the self esteem issue. Somehow we distorted and/or evolved or whatever into the idea that Self esteem should come from just exisiting, whereas real self esteem should come from valid sources.

By SET

October 3, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

This is an excellent example of how the schools’ true agenda is other than to teach. The fact that this creature who calls itself a teacher freely discusses how he is to “find a way to make everyone succeed” tells us that his school doesn’t care if no one learns.

Bad as this is you can be sure that there are other secret agendas at the “school” that are even more toxic and dangerous. By putting your child in such an institution you are selling out your child’s future. What’s not being discussed here is that the children are certainly being taught to be self-centered, lazy, given artificial self-esteem, to expect instant gratification and to not plan anything. If they don’t have to work at all they don’t ever “fail”.

I can just see the black kids going from these schools to welfare and prisons. Does anyone remember the segregated schools of the ’50s and early ’60s and compare them to this?

The sooner internet primary and secondary schools come online to join homeschooling as options the better for America’s children.

Brave New World.

By jim d

October 3, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

SET, whats this? You have a problem here with schools producing sheeple?

By teach overseas

October 3, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

Personally, I don’t give them. I know who has done the reading and who has not. Isn’t in interesting however, all the parents who claim to want high standards of their children will balk and scream not because their children do not know enough to pass a pop quiz, but that the teacher gave one in the first place that their children failed.

By Veteran

October 3, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

“A rose by any other name … ” Instead of “pop quizzes,” at my school we tend to alert students to short, recall (knowledge-based)quizzes that we intend to administer. That way, students who are pushing for that A or even B are alerted and will make sure to read or study the material. Students who don’t care will just post another grade that is indicative of that attitude. And, we have more “evidence” to share with complaining parents who say the child’s poor grades are the direct fault of the teacher. Another strategy in use today is so simple and so obvious: As children prepare to leave the class for the day, have them answer one or two (or three, or four … ) questions over the day’s material. Students who got the concepts, do well. Students who are still confused can at least have some avenue for letting the teacher know. And, if the entire CLASS is still confused, the teacher knows immediately to slow down, back up, and reteach. Some call it the “ticket out the door” strategy. Works great.

By MMM

October 3, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

I think the real problem is the atmosphere that doesn’t allow the teacher to feel “in charge” of her own teaching enough to use whatever tool he or she chooses.

Pop quizes are neither good nor bad—-but a teacher that is so unsupported by the administration and parents that she can’t set a standard that requires children to be continually prepared and responsible is enough to make me agree with SET on this one.

By Melissa

October 3, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this

I couldn’t agree more with Janine and SET. I am a GA public school grad and my mom taught for 20 years. I used to be opposed to vouchers. I now have kids (but even if I didn’t) and I WANT OPTIONS. I don’t blame the teacher for eliminating pop quizzes — the time outside of the classroom on paperwork, reports to file, etc. is stiffling the best of teachers. But pop quizzes are important on so many levels - the least of which might be GASP that you are responsible for your own learning and must face the consequences if you don’t step up to the plate. Vochers, on-line, whatever - someone PLEASE give me the options!!

By Janine

October 3, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this

SET I taught for 32 years and saw, as well as was able to demonstate progress with all of the students. In all of that time,however, it was the adults with the power that were such a problem…. so outrageously out of touch. We always felt that we could work with the students successfully if we were just given some input into solutions, programs, etc. Up until the last 10 years,many of my colleagues and I thought that we would never retire..they would have to carry us out kicking and screaming. However, we then developed a telling statement [for those of you who are regulars here, forgive the repetition] :The first 10 years you teach, you think you can save the children….THe second 10 years you teach, you think you can change the system…..The third 10 years you teach, all you want to do is get the H—- out of there and hope that your grandchildren go to private school !!

By John

October 3, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this

Give me a break. Pop quizzes reward the best students because they listen in class, do their assigned reading every night and come to school prepared. The students who don’t like pop quizzes are those who cram and only study the night before a test. All teachers should give them.

By SNY

October 3, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this

SET,

Black people have enough doubters to bash them, do we need one of our own continually doing it. Now tell me, why is it that you can only see the black kids going from this school to prison? Aren’t the white children in this school being just as shorted an education as the black students? Isn’t it just a little bit possible that the white students could go down the wrong road as well?

You have some good ideas and you communicate them well, I just wish that you would understand that black children in this country are not the only ones doing wrong. Here in Metro Atlanta, Dacula is a mostly white community and last month the police in Dacula seized the biggest drug bust in GA history. Guess what, they weren’t black people. Everytime there is a big drug bust in metro Atlanta, it involves white people but you don’t see any of the white people on this blog downing them. The media and white people expect for black kids to mess up and they exploit it up the a$$, please remember that. These white people love to read your posts, it gives them something to go back and tell other white people about us. “Hey, if their own kind is talking about them, it must be true of all of them.” It also validates their own opinions of us. Think about it, you are not the only black person in this country and I don’t want all white people looking at me or my kids thinking the way you do. I was raised properly and I am raising my kids properly. I don’t want some white person to look at my son and automatically think he is a thug or a gang banger. It isn’t fair to him. You are not helping!!

I’m done now!!

By b. white

October 3, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this

Pop quizzes are ok for assessment, but should not be used as a punishment for misbehavior. Just like the CRCT for 8th graders. We had over 200 fail, but yet they were passed on to high school through an appeals process. Although if they had been held back they would have been hard to handle. Pop quizzes show assessment, but just like the CRCT the results of such tests would have been useless due to parental or administrative upset.

By b. white

October 3, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

Janine,

I have 4 years left to retirement. I agree with you!!!

By OldSchool

October 3, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

I love pop quizzes because of the near instant feedback. I use both written and skill pop quizzes. They are a quick means of determining who needs extra time/help/practice and who grasps the concepts enough to move on. Fortunately, my course is individualized and I have the flexibility to modify each student’s assignments.

What doesn’t work as well for me are long, formal tests. I don’t want students just regurgitating facts and data, I want them to demonstrate understanding and skill. The majority (70%) of their final grade are their drawings.

By jim d

October 3, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

SNY,

YOU’RE BLACK?!!! (tic)

I don’t think most of us whitey’s are as bad as you contend.

By JustMe

October 3, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this

SET and jim d….

Do not place the blame here on the teachers. Teachers are constantly pressured to “pass” students rather than to teach content and assess learning. Ever hear of ‘grade inflation?’

Administrators and parents complain and complain about low grades. A teacher can be teaching her butt off, doing everything expected. But, if the students (and I use that word loosely) do not do their part, then the grades will suffer.

The sad thing is that when students fail, everyone blames the teacher and not the real problem - the student.

Want an example? In a general level high school class, I assign homework. The homework is 90% multiple choice questions at the end of the chapter. The answers can be easily found within the chapter text. I would EXPECT that all students could easily make a grade of 100 on all homework with very little effort.

What happens in reality? Only about 20% of the students do the homework. About another 20% will quickly take out a sheet of paper and randomly write down multiple choice answers to turn in the day that it is due. The remaining 60% turn in nothing at all - they do not even bother to write their name on a piece of paper.

What happens after that? The parents complain about too many zeros in their childs average. The administration recommends that I grade on “effort” (in other words, give a child a grade of 100 if they turn in a sheet of paper with their name on it). The administration says that I give too much homework (one homework set is due once per week and there are only around a total of 13 problems). Everyone wants to blame me, the teacher.

Now, before anyone replies, know that yes, I teach the chapter content in class. But in order to do the homework, you can just read the chapter and find the answers. But, if you are too lazy to read the chapter, you can listen in class and get the answers. However, my little darlings mostly do neither of these. And yet, they expect to pass.

And after all of this, now the State has an EOCT. The State does not grade on effort. The State does not care about an individual child or their home life or their personal problems. That test is graded right or wrong, period. And, if I as the teacher “give” all students A’s, and then they fail the EOCT, guess what the response is from the adminstrators?

By b. white

October 3, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

To Patti, What do you and AJC readers think about 8th graders who failed the CRCT twice being promoted on to the 8th grade by the appeal process? What good is requiring passage of the CRCT to be promoted?

By Janine

October 3, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this

JUSTME OHMYGOODNESS!!!YOu mean there is a real world out there??? Isn’t it just amazing.???..We would often say that the 9th grade is where the nasty net of reality is cast…where all the kids who had been moved along, whose self esteem had been boosted with wreckless abandon. But I am beginning to realize now that high school continues the madness. THe inflated grades and false self esteem finally show up when the students arrive at college and have to be placed in remedial classes, some of which are teaching skills that should have been mastered in middle school. Or when they get a job and “EFFORT” doesn’t cut it anymore. THe “but I tried” excuse should stop at 2nd grade. We use to tell the students that “trying” didn’t cut it anymore, but were ourselves CUT DOWN by administrators and forced to dumb down.

By Jay

October 3, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this

I’m a parent and have no problem with a pop quiz every once in a while - with one caveat. Many teachers today don’t know how to write good, clear, unambiguous test (or quiz) questions. My older daughter has had to start answering questions with: “There is an ambiguity in the question. If you meant, X, then the answer is Y. If you meant, A, then the answer is B.” Otherwise, she has had too many questions counted “incorrect” because she decided on one of the reasonable interpretations of the question that the teacher didn’t want. Sometimes the tests don’t indeed up testing knowledge or thought process - but how well can you read the teacher’s mind about what she MEANT for the question to get at.

By SNY

October 3, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this

Jim D.,

I may not have the facts about saying prayer in school, but trust me, I have first hand knowledge of how hard it is to be black in America. There are more people out there ready to throw us back to Africa than you may think. They will smile in your face and demand that you be fired or demand that you step down from a position of authority behind your back. Trust me it happens EVERYDAY somewhere. My only point is that we have to help ourselves. Black people are taught that white people do not want them to fail. When we see it happen in person, it just brings that lesson home and it hurts. Black people do not expect white people to help them, but we don’t need our own people degrading us as much as SET does. That was my only point.

If you don’t belive me, just keep an eye on this blog. Most of the posters on here have terrible and nasty things to say about the ghetto kids.

By JustMe

October 3, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

Janine

Yes, a large part of high school does continue the madness. This is because the madness has occurred so very much in middle school, parents and students go into shock in high school and so “it must be the teachers fault” in high school. The kids have been trained to not do work and so they do not - and they still expect to pass. I wish I had a dime every time that I heard a parent say, “but my child always made A’s in school before!” They never stop to realize that their child has NEVER done homework much less EVER brought a book home.

However, as I mentioned, the EOCT and also the HSGT does not allow for this BS (unless a teacher is willing to risk their certification by cheating). So when the low EOCT and low HSGT scores come in, and the student has all A’s, once again it is the teachers fault - even though we’ve inflated the grades to pacify the administrators and parents.

Janine, you are right. The remedial classes of colleges are exploding (large number of students enrolled). This is a direct result of the BS that is going on.

Rather than continue a post simply complaining, here is a proposed solution….. do not allow any student to move on to the next grade unless they pass the CRCT - NO EXCEPTIONS! This is the only way that students/parents/administrators/teachers know for certain that learning the content and demonstrating knowledge and understanding is the desired goal of school/education.

Anyone concerned about a kid being held back too many years….. let’s first think about it…. when there was a one room schoolhouse, weren’t there all students of all grades and all ages in one room? And, even if that presents a problem for today (a too old kid in a too young classroom), we can find other solutions for that rather than pass them on to the next grade!

By JustMe

October 3, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this

Jay,

Here is a suggestion…. Early in the semester, the first time a poorly worded question is given on any assignment, ask to meet with the teacher. Teachers (at least the ones that I know) are very open to ways to improve test questions and are willing to modify them.

Sometimes questions are written in a hurry and I admit that I make mistakes. However, I will usually:

Sometimes, teachers do use questions from a resource (the textbook, etc.) and feel justified with the way that they are worded. However, I have found that even some of those questions are vague.

By Janine

October 3, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

Justme…I know this sounds like passing the buck again, but I’m sure you know that the students arrive in 6th grade [Middle School] NOT HAVING PASSES THE CRCT..with outrageously low scores. One of our 6th grade teachers had to write over 60 Level

By Jeff

October 3, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this

Some general observations:

“Opportunities for Success”: I gave a grade for nothing more than taking your progress report home, getting it signed, and bringing it back. I had a mother -who works in my system - pitching a FIT that her child got a zero for it! Went to the principal claiming that I couldn’t give a grade for something that had nothing to do with my content… PRINCIPAL SUPPORTED HER!

I have LITERALLY given 3 numeric grades in the first nine weeks… EVERYTHING ELSE was “Put your name on a sheet of paper, make it look done, and you get a 100”…. TWENTY FIVE PERCENT OF MY STUDENTS ARE FAILING!!!!!!!

You ask me about “pop quizzes”? Heck, I’d be happy if I could get these kids to do ANYTHING!!!!!

By Jeff

October 3, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

BTW: Guess what?

Standard “passing” on nearly any report card in the state of GA that I know of is 70%…. 5th grade CRCT Math (I teach 6th grade math) you only had to score 45% to pass!!!!!!

This year, my students only have to make a 50% on the CRCT…. and I’ll be DANG LUCKY to have 70% of them do it….

By Janine

October 3, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this

OOPS>…clicked something that sent too soon. Anyway, she had to write over 60 Level one plans [you have to have one for each student who did not pass the CRCT]for the 5th graders who had been passed on. And, as I’m sure you know, even the ones who passed with very low , but passing scores, were reading at a very low elementary level.

By JustMe

October 3, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

Jeff -

Here is what I do…. I award bonus points on a test for doing things such as getting a parent signatures. The “good” students are more than happy to do this in order to get the points. The “bad” students won’t do it anyway.

And, the administrators cannot say anything because you are “penalizing” a student for non-content grades!

Jannie,

I am sure that the failing elementary kids that are passed on to the middle school is also a big problem. However, if even the elementary school kids cannot go to the next grade until they pass their CRCT, then that should resolve the problem for you, as well.

It just seems like educrates want to propose solutions from the top down (high school down) rather from the bottom up (elementary school up) and that is backwards! By the time the students are that old, their have set ways, behaviors, attitudes, habits, etc.

By Jeff

October 3, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this

While on grading (sorry about not specifically pop quizzes!):

Has anyone else heard about the “We can’t give them less than a 60” BS???

I heard that it was just a system policy, then I heard someone else saying that the Governor said it… anyone know? (BTW: As much as that BURNS ME UP, aint no way I can support one of the candidates, which means I’m stuck with the other one whether I like him or not…)

By Janine

October 3, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

OFFERING SOLUTIONS !! I don’t know about the rest of you teachers out there, but I know that many teachers, including myself, have offered ideas/possible solutions to area and county and state reps. Some include a special focused class for students who fail the CRCT or who barely pass and/or do not have passing classroom grades..and do this as early as 2nd grade. THis class could address weaknesses, maybe using different methods, instead of just [1] having them repeat the same material taught in the same way again or [2] passing them on where failure is assured. However, we determined that the county/state/educrats are way too mired in the POLITICALLY CORRECT/everybody can learn mode to consider anything realistic. AND THEY ARE CORRECT: EVERY STUDENT CAN LEARN,however, every student cannot learn at the same rate and/or in the same way. You know the proverbial definition of INSANITY…? Continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result…

By jim d

October 3, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

Awright just me,

Where’d I accuse teachers on this one? I’ve actually agreed with most of y’all on this one. Geez, Disgaree once on a subject and you get the reputation as a teacher basher.

Gimme a break! Don’t be so darn defensive. I’m here for some of the same reasons many of y’all are. I want the SYSTEM to improve.

By Janine

October 3, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

JUSTME Totally agree…they have things bass ackwards. I know they can’t be that dense, but what do you suppose is the problem that blinds them? It’s not rocket science. Even HOme DEpot has now realized that their success flows from the bottom up.

By JustMe

October 3, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this

Sorry about that jim d…. I guess my fingers are just used to typing your name in whenever I disagree. LOL.

My point in many of these posts is - MOST teachers know how to teach and what needs to be done for the students. However, ALL teachers are simply robots doing what our administrators and politicans force on us regardless. That is why it burns me whenever people fault teachers in education. They do not realize how very little freedom teachers have in Georgia classrooms.

By jim d

October 3, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this

“Black people do not expect white people to help them”

Damn glad to hear it. I don’t help anyone based on skin color. I make a judgement and help those willing to make an effort to help themselves. Guess I’m kinda color blind.

But sweetie, you appear to be falling into the same trap you are accusing whitey of falling into. Making decisions and judgements based on ones skin tones. You’ve made some pretty biased, generalized statements about us “white folk”

This is a two way street and tensions will always exist as long as we all don’t move beyond the color issue.

By Jeff

October 3, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this

jim:

As much as we disagree occassionally, I like your input. It forces me to think, and that is rarely a bad thing.

Remember jim, when it comes to education, we’re both outsiders: you because you’re not one of “us”, and me because I didn’t become one of “us” in the accepted way….

I’ve learned that it often takes an outsider coming in and FORCING change for change to occur. But the Armageddon example is very appropriate here. (From the movie):

Fire a nuke at an asteroid, you MIGHT veer it off course, A LITTLE. Plant that same nuke in the middle of the asteroid, and you can destroy the asteroid…. (OK, so the movie used a firecracker in your open hand vs closed hand, but the nuke situation is the big picture in the movie, and the “hand” illustration might be lost on you if you haven’t seen the movie recently.)

Rambling… shutting up (for the moment)

By SNY

October 3, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

Jim D.,

My comments were just for SET to understand that when he is bashing us, he makes us all look bad. Not all of us are bad. His statement said that he could see the “black kids”, he didn’t say underachieving kids. He only spoke about the black ones. Do you see where I am going with this? I just want him to understand how much power his words actually have.

By Ernest

October 3, 2006 01:49 PM | Link to this

Janine, OldSchool, and others that have taught 20+ years. Can you point to a time frame in which we (stakeholders) began putting restrictions (laws) on your ability teach? I’m asking to try to understand what, if anything, could be done to reverse some of this. Can we have a balance of ‘transparent accountability’ with quality instruction in the classroom?

I recognize there is not a ‘silver bullet’ solution but status quo is not doing it for many of our students. I will also acknowledge that parenting skills and involvement has gone down

SET speaks a ‘truth’ that many of us are blind to with many of his posts. Keep on posting….

By Janine

October 3, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this

THat’s a very difficult question,Ernest. But, I the first time we were told absolutely what not to teach and how not to grade papers was in the 70’s [mid to late ]. Teachers were told that teaching grammar was not really important, and we were to begin focusing on content only and grading accordingly. I was in elementary school at the time and the county spent a bundle on an IBM computer lab for 1st and 2nd graders. The program was called Write to Read. I remember the upper grade teachers walking down on the lower grade hall where all of these papers from the lab were displayed . I am not exaggerating, you could not make sense of any of the writing, yet they had a 100A+ grade. We all said we dreaded getting those students in 2 or 3 years, because we thought their lack of ability to express themselves clearly in writing would present problems. Sure enough,that’s exactly what happened. I think that was the first actual directive I received.

By Janine

October 3, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this

Re that Write to REad deal…it turned out that the average and above students made the transition to applying the rules of standard English and spelling pretty well. But the struggling ones just couldn’t make it happen.

By Rodney

October 3, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this

This notion of finding a way to make everyone pass is hogwash. And quite frankly, IMHO, it is part of reason our education system doesn’t prepare kids for the real world.

Not everyone can pass. Not everyone can be on the honor roll, either. Life’s like that. Teach your kids to deal with it.

By thomas

October 3, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this

I like this topic: Pop Quizzes

NEWSFLASH!!! In the modern day American classroom (well at least here in Georgia), you cannot give pop quizzes. Reason- somebody might fail. YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO FAIL ANYONE, NOR CAN THEY RECEIVE A POOR GRADE- EARNED OR NOT.

This goes from elementary to high school. School is not about learning, growing, and developing. For about 99% of all people, it is a hurdle that must be jumped through. Your pop quiz is a hurdle that they don’t want to deal with.

Most schools today have been reduced to being factories/warehouses/day care centers. It is a shame.

By NI-7

October 3, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this

My middle school was restructured this year. This means the majority of the faculty was replaced with “Master Teachers”. (FYI- many of these so called Master Teachers are not even certified by the state of Georgia…go figure) I found out recently that the reason many teachers were replaced was because the principal felt that they had a “these kids can’t pass the CRCT” mentality. Well, our students don’t pass the CRCT and it is because they are largely non-English Speaking students (not trying to start another issue) and are unable to pass a test given in English. We have fought the educrats for years, to no avail, so we teach our kids the best we can in a way we know they can learn. They may not learn enough to pass the CRCT or a pop quiz, but they do learn which can be measured by comparing each student’s last year scores to this year’s scores. But many of these caring, knowledgeable teachers are now gone. This year’s CRCT scores should be interesting. Anyway now we have a building of teachers, many of them brand new, who don’t have a clue how to teach these students. There are 11 veteran teachers trying to help those who are floundering. Some of the floundering teachers have many years of experience but have never taught in a school with a majority of students not speaking English. We are told by the administration to give students opportunities for success…if 5 problems are too many give them 1. Count participation as the major portion of your grade. If they can’t pass tests, don’t give them.
I totally agree that we need to begin addressing this problem in elementary school. Actually the elementary school has a program called EIP where struggling students can work at a lower level, with assistance and make passing grades. That ends when they come to middle school. We hear the same “but he/she always made as before” and when we check we find they were in the EIP program 9 times out of 10. They are not prepared for middle school hence will not be ready for high school.

Rodney you are so right!

Janine you are correct in addressing the political correctness issue. We are doing such a disservice to our students!

By jim d

October 3, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

Just me,

Gottcha.

LOL

By SET

October 3, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

SNY: Thanks for the comments, I’m still processing.

I think you are protesting my perceived attention to black criminality as opposed to white or asian criminality. That’s probably a defensive mechanism you have.

What I’m noting is that the percentage of black criminality is hugely out of proportion to white and asian criminality. I believe that imbalance has been made much worse by 1960s civil rights movement excesses combined with the Great Society programs which reproduced black criminals like rabbits. While white and asian criminals are present they are in no way such a high ratio of the total. I want this to stop. I believe we can get these numbers back into whack. It starts with training people in public school not to act badly - as well as not actually educating them.

I might add that white liberals poured gasoline on this mess until it has reached the levels we see now.

Things can be quickly fixed even within the existing constitution. The CA Judicial system can be made more like Texas and Maricopa County AZ. It’s coming. And even I’m not happy with some of the radical draconian changes because they are not well thought out. With big sudden change comes big unintended consequences.

More intrestingly - and I thought you’d know me better by now - you seem to think that my policy debate should feature some kind of allegiance to blacks just because I’m black. You sound like some of the school kids I encountered when I was a sub. They thought that a black sub would allow the black students to act out. (I got them over that real fast.)

I have NO allegiance to “blacks” over that to the United States as a whole. None. While I am partial to BBQ Ribs, etc., when it comes to public policy I am only interested in the continuation of this country as the keystone of Western Civilization it has always been.

In spite of this I’m afraid that at the current rate American blacks as we knew them will be dead, intermarried out, or in a form of slavery in a few more generations. Just take a look at the AIDS statistics, for example. If American Western Civ is replaced by a modified 3rd world society in the future have no illusions as to what will happen to those on the bottom. So if this group is to survive they’d better work a lot harder. It would be nice of the public schools actually educated them.

Brave New World!

By jim d

October 3, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

SNY,

OK, I’ll admit SET plays the race card way too much and I’ve told em so in the past. But you must admit you generally fall for it.

By SET

October 3, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

One More Thing - - Some blacks are doing really well - check it out in Los Angeles/Beverly Hills and in cutting edge areas of Banking, Electronics & Computerization. There are a few blacks in key positions in many new and old industries. The point is there are relatively few. The trick is to find and develop potential and get rid of the crab pot behaviors that hold the brights back.

And they’re not being held back by whites. They’re being held back by - in most cases - their own families and friends.

They’re being told - “don’t leave, don’t change, don’t risk, and don’t try - and don’t say that”.

By jim d

October 3, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

Well SET,

you’re right about that. But you left out the most important “don’t”.

Don’t act white.

By Janine

October 3, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

NI7 Those “restructurers” are trying to corner the market on STUPID,aren’t they???/ As I remember, they “restructured” McNair Middle in Dekalb in 2003 …Most of their teachers , even their Security Resource Officer were booted out and replaced ….AND SURPRISE SURPRISE!!! Two years later, they still didn’t make AYP so they “restructured” again. NOw, there you go with that INSANITY definition again.

By SET

October 3, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this

Jim D: At the rate things are going it’s soon going to be “don’t act asian/jewish”. At least in this state. The whites are seeing their status downgraded. Our city and state political machines are no longer Irish controlled.

As for the race card - I think that in this state there may be more polarization than in the southern states. Compared to what I remember of the Democratic Coalition that ran things in the 50’s and 60’s things are balkanized now. My observations are driven by a lifetime on the west coast and things are different in the southern states.

Thomas Sowell has a new book out theorizing that most of the problems with black development in the industrial north is attributed to the “redneck blacks” that migrated from the south with the southern white value systems that included violence, anti-literacy, promiscuity, unskilled labor, anti-authority, etc. It was an interesting read. I believe it’s Sowell’s theory that this is the base of the current black orthodoxy that results in failure to thrive.

Either way the schools need to get control of all the students starting at 1st grade. Pop Quizzes is nothing compared to what’s required to get these kids on their toes and ready to go out into the world. We do need to return corporal punishment to the schools. Sad but true. Stop suspensions - create segregated (by behavior & performance) schools - paddle when required. Increase the types of programs so that the dull students have something marketable and interesting to do.

By JustMe

October 3, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this

A few statistics on ethnicity to ponder….

Yes, the average scores on standardized tests for blacks is lower compared to whites. However, in GA, the average black scores are higher compared to other States (translation: GA is doing a better job at educating blacks compared to most States).

Also, the gap between white and black in GA is smaller compared to most States. Not only is this because the black average is higher, but also because the white average is lower!

And a reality check: a very large % of the black population is in APS. And, a very large % of the teachers and administrators in APS are black. However, APS is still one of the “laggers” in passing AYP and other standardized tests. What does this tell you, if anything?

By OldSchool

October 3, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

Ernest, regarding your 01:49 PM post today, “Can you point to a time frame in which we (stakeholders) began putting restrictions (laws) on your ability teach?” The best I can do is relate what was said in a faculty meeting in the late 80’s early 90’s (I can’t remember exactly). Faced with a very large number of failures during one 9 week grading period, our principal urged us to “give the students some hope of passing.” He suggested that we give them a failing grade that had some chance of being pulled up to passing; ie: a 65 or 69 which was still failing but unlike a 30 or 40 could be improved.

Just recently we were encouraged to discuss our failing rates among our departments and try to determine strategies that worked to help students succeed.

I think it was in the mid 80s when our faculty was “encouraged” to do everything we could to help students be successful and to examine our teaching methods if we had too many failures. No one ever said what was “too many.”

I know this is very vague but until last year, I never felt like anyone was telling me how to teach. Last year we were told that every teacher would be trained in “learner focused” teaching and that we would all teach using that method. Our performance evaluations are actually a checklist to insure we have the LFS techniques documented or actually visible in our classrooms. As a CTAE instructor, my instruction has always been “learner focused.” This particular edict has produced in me almost as much resentment as the hiring of a graduation/football coach.

By Laura

October 3, 2006 05:24 PM | Link to this

Well, boo-hoo. So teachers are supposed to stop giving pop quizzes just because today’s spoiled brats fail them? Give me a break!

By HS Teacher Too

October 3, 2006 06:12 PM | Link to this

Piping in late on this one…

I use pop quizzes with upperclassmen, who I think know the system and often use their “maturity” to decide which classes require work and which don’t. I don’t typically collect or grade hw (glad to explain that to anyone interested), so the occasional pop quiz serves a very good purpose. By similar logic, I don’t typically give pop quizzes to underclassmen, especially freshmen, because they have not yet figured out how to balance their schedules and sometimes I feel that pop quizzes would punish them for being “rookies,” as opposed to making poor choices. That’s not to say I don’t see the value in them, though, and don’t give them. I just try to do it rarely — just enough to surprise kids and put them back on track; not so frequently as to be a significant part of their course grade.

However, I have taught with teachers who use pop quizzes to fill days/class periods when they, they teachers, are unprepared, have too much grading to catch up on, have a headache … etc. etc. I believe this is HORRIBLE! First of all, it’s unfair to the students. The students are being punished, essentially, for the teacher’s shortcomings; and taking an entire class period for a teacher to “catch up” robs the students of an instructional day for no good reason except an unprofessional teacher. Unacceptable!!! Seeing teachers act like this (and trust me, it’s hardly uncommon) infuriates me. you expect the kids to be prepared, and you’re an adult and supposedly a professional — and you punish them because you’re not prepared. Oh it boils my blood!!!

While I’m on that soapbox, I also do not believe quizzes should take the full class period. If that’s the case, call it a test.

Wow, I ranted a little more than I expected to today!

By CommonSense

October 3, 2006 06:16 PM | Link to this

I think that it was in the late 90’s when after a particular bad group of lazies were failing at CTAE course, I had to prepare a detailed explanation in writing as to why each child was failing. That quickly reinforces that you don’t fail lazies. You were to keep your failures at 25 % or under.

No one wants to write up detailed 1/2 to 1 page reports on everything that you did to help Johnny Lunchbox pass. It is hard to help Johnny Lunchbox pass when Johnny is absent 20 to 25% of the time or is in ISS or Johnny is at YDC. It is hard to have success when you call Jane Lunchbag’s parents and the y curse at you for bothering them. Jane and Johnny don’t study for tests, don’t take notes, don’t participate in class and disrupt others who wish to learn.

However I was punished with writing 1/2 to 1 full page explaining the problems each student had who was failing and what I had done to fix them.

I never wrote such a report again. It only takes once to step in cow byproducts to know what a load of excrement this paper passing was.

Fortunately, I moved to a different school. Kids are just as lazy, but no reports and understanding that you can only do so much. All motivation is internal.

By Michael

October 3, 2006 07:03 PM | Link to this

Ouch — having to write a whole half page justifying something as meaningless as to why some student was failing. You sound like your lazy students.

By luvs2teach

October 3, 2006 07:23 PM | Link to this

Micahel - I’m going to assume that you’re trying to be funny, but in case you weren’t - multiply that “whole half page” by the number of kids failing, and “CommonSense” probably had to spend some valuable time on ridiculous paperwork instead of doing what s/he is paid to do: teach, plan lessons, and grade papers.

To translate this to the real world: how would you like it if your sales manager asked you to write a half page report on every sale you failed to get - meanwhile you aren’t out there cold-calling and making contacts and selling your product.

Not an effective way to run a business, or a school, IMHO.

Lazy has nothing to do with it.

By Jeff

October 3, 2006 07:49 PM | Link to this

Michael:

I have 25% of my students failing as of their report card that they get when they come back next week.

I work at a VERY small school - approx 270 middle school students. I have 59 students, and I teach every student in 6th grade.

25% of 59 = 14.75, so round that to 15. 15 x 1/2 page is 7.5 pages.

Granted, this doesn’t sound like much. But do they take away any of my other responsibilities so that I can write these reports? Do they give me the time during normal working hours to gather the data necessary to write them? While I don’t work at Common’s school, I HIGHLY doubt it.

Oh, and BTW: If I WAS ever forced to write such a report, it would be 1/2 page per student that essentially said “This student hasn’t done sh!t in my class, sleeps in class, and when he isn’t sleeping is disrupting my entire class. I have taken every step possible other than actually doing the work for him, and still he failed my class.” It MIGHT be written more professionally, but I garauntee you that the message as typed above would get through.

By Competitive

October 3, 2006 08:45 PM | Link to this

Pop Quizzes- I give them over homework assignments, but I let students use the questions they answered as they read to help them. Most students who did their homework make an 80%, but to make a 100%, they have to remember a couple of answers from their reading. Students who don’t do their homework don’t deserve to pass anyway, but I reward those that make an effort.

Learning Focused Schools- Old School mentioned being told how to teach last year. We went through this same training last year, and our “walk-through” evaluations are searches for certain things on your wall. Do you have an essential question posted? Do you have an attractive word wall posted? Do you have student work displayed? Literally, none of the items on the checklist have anything to do with teaching!!

Here’s a suggestion- Let teachers focus on teaching, and you will actually have a “learning focused school.”

Another suggestion- Let grades reflect the student’s mastery of the curriculum, not how many “opportunities for success” we can throw at a student until we force their grade above a 70.

By jim d

October 4, 2006 08:07 AM | Link to this

Boy Jeff,

Now you went and done it. LOL

Last time I posted anything even close to your 7:49pm post yesterday, I only used the first two letters S&H and then @# and got an email from our hostess laconically chastising me and my post was deleted.

Unless I’m mistaken there are about 60+ four-letter words in the English language that start with those two letters. You on the other hand narrowed it down tremendously by only leaving out the vowel, which actually narrowed it down to three or four words. However, when you substituted the vowel with an exclamation point you removed any doubt of your meaning.

None the less I hope your post is allowed to remain.

(Sorry Patti, I just “couldn’t” resist) ;))

By Jeff

October 4, 2006 08:19 AM | Link to this

eh, I’ve never been one to skirt around using the PC, “appropriate” language. I’m a Southern boy, and I call ‘em like I see ‘em. One reason I don’t fit in with many of my colleagues.

However, that being said, I do apologize if anyone’s sensitivities were offended. That was not my intention at all.

By jim d

October 4, 2006 08:51 AM | Link to this

LOL, Jeff,

Plain English works for me too!

By OldSchool

October 5, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this

I wonder if anyone has stopped to think that Life Is A Pop Quiz! We have to come up with solutions to the problems that arise as quickly as we can with hardly any time to think them through. This “thinking on our feet” is also “thinking outside the box” and applying the lessons we’ve learned to new and ever changing situations. Sometimes this also means just regurgitating facts and figures.

That, my dear students, is what education is all about.

By D

October 9, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this

Patti:

A related topic. Do kids “prepare” for class anymore?

It seems like most students I speak with just show up, then respond to any assignment they are given after the fact. What ever happened to reading the materials before they were discussed in class? Even pop quizzes are based on what has already been covered - not over what should have been read in preparation.

Is the idea of independent preparation an outdated concept?