AJC.com > Blogs > Get Schooled > Archives > 2006 > September > 26 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USMore Than 40,000 Repeaters
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Here’s how Georgia kids who failed the CRCT in grades 3,5 and 8 fared after they had a chance to attend summer school and take the test again.
In a nutshell: 45 percent of third-graders who had to take the reading test again passed. That means about 11,460 should be back in third grade for a second go-round, unless their parents successfully appealed.
In fifth-grade reading: 41 percent passed, leaving 13,313 to stay back or appeal. In fifth-grade math: 33 percent passed, leaving 9,167 to repeat or appeal. NOTE: I DON’T KNOW HOW MUCH OVERLAP THERE IS IN THESE TWO GROUPS OF STUDENTS.
In eighth-grade reading: 40 percent passed, leaving 7,700 shut out of high school pending appeal. In eighth-grade math: only 30 percent passed, leaving a whopping 19,422 to beg their way into high school or repeat eighth-grade. NOTE: I DON’T KNOW HOW MUCH OVERLAP THERE IS IN THESE TWO GROUPS OF STUDENTS.
Given what I don’t know, I’m saying at least 44,200 kids should be repeating their grade. I need to find out how many successfully appealed, and how much overlap there was in the two groups. Stay tuned….
Also noteworthy, thousands of kids eligible for the retest didn’t bother to take it.
Meanwhile… Parents, was your child held back? Did you appeal? Was your appeal granted? Teachers, do you have repeaters in your class? Did you sit on any appeal committees? Talk to me!
Comments
By lynn d
September 26, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this
I think this article was very premature. I suspect that the reality is that most students were promoted, if they reappeared for school this year. One-third of the kids needing to retake the test at our elementary school couldn’t be located within weeks of school ending.
I heard from the principal of the high school that all the students who didn’t pass or take the retake the 8th grade CRCT had successfully (imagine that) appealed.
I think that if you can ever get good numbers (and I bet you can’t since the state probably doesn’t collect the data — I hope I am wrong), you will find that most students were promoted — the vast majority really.
Most educators (and the research supports them) don’t buy into simply repeating a grade.
In my opinion, we need targetted assistance to at risk kids that is primarily related to legnth of school day (longer day) and legnth of school year (220 days). Use your resources wisely and watch the improvement.
By JustMe
September 26, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this
IMHO, I would rather those students repeat the grade and really learn the content than be promoted. Students should not be shuffled from one grade to the next unless they have learned the required material. After all, once they reach high school they will never graduate without passing the GHSGT.
So, I do not even agree with those that believe something like, “but the student had a bad day, but I think that they really know the content.” Because, we cannot make that excuse for the GHSGT. The students must learn to pass these standardized test as long as our State requires them.
Otherwise, the State should not make them a requirement!
By Patti Ghezzi
September 26, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this
Lynn d, this is exactly the kind of information I’m seeking from those in the trenches. DOE spokesman Dana Tofig says the department doesn’t know yet how many kids were retained. I, too, would predict a low number when all the appeals are taken into account…
By John
September 26, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this
The vast majority of students successfully pass the test. That shows teachers are doing the job. Those students who don’t pass either are unable to do the work or are unwilling to make the effort. I think all standardized tests should be eliminated. Until then, however, retain the students and make them repeat or place them in a class or school by themselves. However, use the resources on those students who are able and are willing to do what it takes to get to the next grade.
By JustMe
September 26, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this
IMHO, there should be no appeals unless the appeals are mirrored for the EOCT and GHSGT in high schools. A student can get appeal after appeal for the CRCTs throughout elementary and middle school. Without a similar appeal in high school, that student will be stuck and will never get their dipolma.
This is not fair to the students. The student is “trained” through elementary and middle that they do not have to learn the content but all they have to do is appeal in order to pass. Then, they get to high school and go into shock. The high school then appears ‘bad’ due to high numbers of drop outs when it would not be the fault of the high school at all!
By Janine
September 26, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this
PattiI hope that you are able to find out how many students are actually retained..try to get hard copies, don’t accept just a number from the state. A dime to a doughnut it won’t be a handful! THe key “out” for the state as well as the student/parent is that little provision which says [paraphrasing] that if a panel composed of parent, teacher, counselor, adm, et. al. agree , the student may go to the next grade. In my experience before and after NCLB, very few students were ever held back because, in most cases, the parent had the last word….which may be the “whatever you want, Mom, just don’t sue us ” syndrome…! I had only one parent who wanted her child retained, and he was… even though the 7th grade teachers were against it [he was a terror]. It turned out to be a very good decision by the parent. He not only succeeded, but excelled from that point on..
By Janine
September 26, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this
AMEN, Justme….In my middle school we always said that it’s in 9th grade where the net is cast and sweeps up all of those students whose academic weaknesses elementary and middle schools didn’t address! We could never understand why all those educrats and politicos at the top could not see something so obvious. They just bemoan the 9th grade drop out rate and never seem to analyze the reasons for it…or if they do , it’s much too hot a potato for them to acknowledge.
By Phillip
September 26, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this
I am a teacher who has always opposed standardized testing. What is the purpose of the test if the kids do well all year and pass the majority of their classes? So we can compare their scores to their counter-parts in Asia or Europe and beat our chests if our kids’ scores are higher and if not, blame the teachers and education system and then come up with even more testing to “better prepare” our kids for the world. Lets focus on classroom teaching and good teachers and please let the teachers teach the subject matter and not the tests. Get politics and big business out of education.
By Patti Ghezzi
September 26, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this
I am seeking from the school systems the number of students retained and the number of appeals granted. Meanwhile, I need anecdotal evidence of how many kids are actually being held back and what their school year will be like. For instance, if they failed math but passed reading, will they repeat eighth-grade language arts?
By Davis
September 26, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this
For some it may be easy to celebrate how well Fulton Schools as a whole performed in testing compared to other school systems. Of course when we put in perspective how Georgia stacks up against national rankings, being the best in Georgia isn’t as impressive.
The rest of the story is the achievement gap between North and South Fulton County. As an example for the 8th grade,
**Reading - ALL South Fulton Middle Schools at the 8th Grade level scored below the countywide average
Math - ALL South Fulton Middle Schools at the 8th Grade level scored below the countywide average
Science - ALL South Fulton Middle Schools at the 8th Grade level scored below the countywide average
Social Studies -ALL but one SF Middle School at the 8th Grade level scored below the countywide average
Language Arts - ALL but one SF Middle School at the 8th Grade level scored below the countywide average**
It is time for comprehensive out of the box thinking to bring South Fulton student test scores up. One size does not fit all.
Matthew 25:40 ….’I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
By Martha
September 26, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this
Yes, put in competent teachers, let them teach, don’t listen to mama beg to have Little Johnny and Little Mary moved up unless they can do the work. MASTER the work, not just be exposed to it.
We have kids that can’t read cursive in the 8th grade (and high school)…can’t do fractions or percents…don’t know multiplication tables (can I have a calculator?). Many of our kids are functionally illiterate.
By jim d
September 26, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this
Patti,
Based on watching how Gwinnett handles their Gateway failures (the method borrowed by the state for CRCT appeals)I can safely predict the number of children retained for failing the CRCT will be around 5%. Ironically close to the number of students retained prior to the implamentation of the CRCT.
Amazing isn’t it?
Seems I have explained all of this before, but the state can not retain the number of students that actually failed the test for several reasons, mostly political fall out though. All of this is in the Smoke Screen to assure No Child Is Left Behind.
By Nikole
September 26, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this
Off the topic, but Martha, we didn’t teach cursive in the elementary school I worked at. There was a Montessori program at the school and so those students write in cursive all the time. But most of the students don’t get that instruction anymore.
By jim d
September 26, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this
Hundreds of millions of tax dollars shot in the keyster! I’m beginning to wonder if John Q Public will ever wake up.
By Lisa B.
September 26, 2006 12:18 PM | Link to this
Two of my elementary students last year failed the CRCT. One simply refused to do the test. He read no questions or answers, but just marked anything. He finished in section in under two minutes and bragged about it. Another boy is so ADHD he can’t keep his eyes on a page long enough to read a paragragh aloud to me. I think both boys should have been retained, but neither was. The first boy could be an excellent student if he tried, the second boy needs medical intervention. Sending them both on to the next grade level will only ensure they both get farther behind. If we’re going to retain kids based on one test, EVERYONE who fails the test should be retained. If we’re going to pass some of them, we may as well pass them all. Instead it seems to depend on how much the parents complain, and individual philosophies of administrators.
By Patti Ghezzi
September 26, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this
Hi Lisa B. Did the parents initiate the appeals process or did the school make the decision without them? Also, were they in a high-stakes year last year (3, 5 or 8)?
By Janine
September 26, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this
I think maybe I have mentioned this before on this blog. But it is relavent to today’s topic. Summer school was only 19 days long …what a joke!! [I don’t think it’s much longer now.] Quite a few students did absolutely nothing and failed. However, when they returned in the fall, they had been promoted. WHen we had the counselor look into it, we found out that their grades had been changed without the knowledge of the teachers. Several teachers were irate and went to the school board and the superintendent. Guess what happened..a big NOTHING!!!
By frances
September 26, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this
Some kids must have been retained. We have some mighty big, ugly third graders in my kid’s grade this year that weren’t there last year. The best part is that a couple of the big ones are already talking to their classmates about having sex. One likes to show the boys her bra at recess.
Nice.
By Al
September 26, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this
The students who can not pass the test should be given the opportunity to stay in the grade level they are performing at or below. Why would parents want to move their child ahead when they could obviously benefit from further study at their current level?
By CD
September 26, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this
Phillip- As a teacher you should know why we have standardized test! They establish a norm (whatever it may be.) Otherwise you have weak schools who inflate their grades and CLAIM to be on par with the best. Case in point: Look at Washington High School with all their “Honor Grads” and “HOPE Recipients.” But their SAT grades were 60-some-odd points below the state average when we were LAST in the country! These are the same kids who go straight to the Devo classes in college and loose their HOPE scholarships in the first year. Do you think they are as strong as the students coming out of Walton or Brookwood? NO! But hey… they were “Honors Grads” and all of them have A’s. An SAT/ACT/EOCT/GHSGT shows the discrepancy that inflation/lies try to hide.
By Janine
September 26, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this
oops! In my 2:47, that should be relevAnt…Sorry…I’m OCD.
By fed up
September 26, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this
The only way to get decent college students is to require that there be a minimum SAT in addition to the B average. Also, if the student needs remedial to get through the year, they can pay for that themselves not through HOPE.
By Janet Miller
September 26, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this
What the heck is wrong w/the education system these days? What happened to if you fail, you are held back? Which rocket scientist came up with the idea of advancing or placing or promoting a student who has a failing grade average? If you don’t make the grade, then you repeat until you can pass. Plain and simple. Possibly hurting the student’s feelings now will only help them post-education. And forget about wanting “Little Johnny” or “Little Susie” to graduate with their friends. Here’s a hint…..stop playing, buckle down and study and TURN OFF THOSE VIDEO GAMES.
By Rita
September 26, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
Janet, Well said !!!
Last year the 6th grade teachers at my DeKalb middle school had to write over 90 Level 1 Plans. This was for students who did not pass their 5th grade CRCT and were not held back. We tried to find out if any of our feeder schools held any 5th graders back, but never got an answer.
By EW
September 26, 2006 03:08 PM | Link to this
Davis, you wont find anyone address the gap in this blog on the differences of South Fulton and North Fulton, not a real popular subject, as long as we stay in our place…. Now as for these numbers they are inaccurate. However I have recently moved from a suburban school system into teaching in a South Fulton middle school, in suburbia a studnet could only be retained once in the middle school age group, however here in South Fulton, they cannot be passed or socially promoted at all. I have students that have been in the 7th grade for three years. I have a girl who is 15 and will be 16 this year? Now would you want your baby in the same class with them? This is where alternative schools should be in place for these types of students.
By EducatorX3
September 26, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this
Just a question…so many of us say students should be held back if they don’t pass - no ifs, ands, or buts. But do you want a 14 year old boy sitting next to your 9 year girl in the third grade classroom? Where do we draw the line? At what point do we send them on?
And what about the kid who passes all classes with A’s, and then didn’t pass the CRCT. It is certainly possible that there is major grade inflation. But it is also possible that the child got on the wrong line of the answer sheet. Or perhaps we have made the 8 year old so nervous over the “big test” that they just can’t function! (I know all about the high school tests and the lack of appeals - but there is a huge difference between an 8 year old and an 18 year old!)
Wish I had all the answers.
By JustMe
September 26, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this
EducatorX3 - I will answer your questions!
What do we do with an older student that still cannot pass the CRCT? Well, I think that a student should have 2 years to pass it at their “home school.” If they cannot pass it, then that student should go to the school system alternative school because obviously the home school does not work for that student.
What if a student passes the classes with all A’s and then doesn’t pass the CRCT? I would be very angry with the teacher(s). Because this tells me that the teacher is inflating the grades and that student is really not an A student! These days, some teachers still give good grades because they “like” the student or because that student is not a behavior problem rather than because the student knows the content.
By Anonymous
September 26, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this
That’s why you send your kids to Private school. Better teachers, better environment, better students.
By JustMe
September 26, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
Anonymous -
You are oh-so-wrong with your statement. Private schools only ensures that you eliminate a class of students.
It does not mean that there are better teachers. In fact, many teachers are not even certified in private schools. Public schools pay teachers more (and have benefits) and so the “better” teachers follow the money (for the most part).
It does not mean that the students are better. Those same students would be just as “good” in a public school.
Why would you swoop onto a blog and make a two sentence post that is so inflamatory?
By Leia
September 26, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this
Just Me - and to piggyback your statement - I know of MANY teachers who couldn’t pass the Praxis exam after several attempts who went to teach in the private schools in the area! Are they better teachers? Heck no! I know that I wouldn’t want my children being taught by someone who couldn’t even pass a competency exam in their own area of “expertise”!
By catlady
September 26, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this
Virtually none of the (significant) number of students in our county system that failed the CRCT were held back. Once again, accountability for students is a joke!
By jim d
September 26, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this
Just me,
And to agree further, my child has attended both. Was he a better student in the private school? I don’t think so. Was he ahead of his peers when he rejoined public schools? Absolutely. But he was when he left the public schools. So it made little difference.
To be quite honest, the only difference I noticed was that we were treated as customers in the private school rather than as a number.
For the difference in money—-I can live with being a number.
By jim d
September 26, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this
Cat,
So does the system still hold the teacher accountable for a failure even if the student is passed on by the system?
By educatormyself
September 26, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this
HUNDREDS failed the CRCT in Clayton County and they were all “placed” in ninth grade. One can only imagine what End of Course Test scores will look like for those NOW ninth graders. A horrific situation is in the making.
By C.R.H.
September 26, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this
Funny & ignorant at the same time! Anonymous needs to stay that way…because they obviously have no idea what they are talking about. My 1st year of teaching was at a “private” school (in the midwest) and for the last 9 years of my career I taught in public GA schools. The teachers at private schools were not nearly as prepared or effective as the public school teachers. Any monkey can manage a group of kids who at least have some internal motivation. BTW…the students at private schools have the same issues as public school students but were much better at hiding those problems, except when they would get busted with meth & pot in their cars!
By Janine
September 26, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this
I have a number of friends who teach in private schools. They do make quite a bit less than public school teachers,and I have asked why do they do it..Their answers are always one of the following :[1] THey cannot get a job teaching in public school because they haven’t done the coursework required, [2]They cannot pass or do not want to take the Praxis [3] They feel that whatever the extra money , it’s not worth the extra work/hassle/aggravation/traveltime/behavior problems,etc. [4]For whatever reason,THey don’t need the extra money .
By catlady
September 26, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this
At our school of the 48 3rd graders who failed the CRCT the first time, NONE were held back. Not one. I don’t know how many failed the second time. It has been running about 50% failure the second time around, I think. The special ed kids (with testing modifications out the wazoo) get a free pass, the ESOL kids (same modifications) get a free pass, and the others get a (parent or administrator) pass. So everyone is successful, right!? Even those who don’t come to summer school and don’t retest are passed on!
What I do not understand is, how do kids pass the second time? They have had 180 days of instruction, for countless hours, and failed it, then come to summer school for 20 days and pass it? Why don’t we just put everyone into summer school for 20 days, forget this 180 day year, save a ton of money, and get more to pass?! Still seems like the cut scores are manipulated the second time to me…. Someone makes money off this.
At our school we have kids with all F’s in reading and math but they are promoted also. Or they do no work and are promoted. And we wonder why parents and students don’t take it seriously….
We “modify” so children will be “successful” until the curriculum is just a shell of grade level expectations. And we are surprised when the students cannot read or do the work when they get to high school. But, hey! We did OUR part to make them “successful.”
Sorry. I will get off my soapbox now. It is just so disheartening, and I hate to see something so important turned into a joke. If you have standards, ENFORCE them.
By Janine
September 26, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this
educatemyself..Do you ever wonder, as I do, why politicos and educrats at the top who are always moaning about that enormous 9th grade drop out rate can’t figure out why??
By michael
September 26, 2006 05:14 PM | Link to this
If you promote kids regardless of their achievement, some kids will know this and quickly perform at the minimum level necessary to get by. They will rise only to the level of expectation.Require more and get more.
It does absolutely no good to promote kids who have not done the work in the lower grade. How could they possible then do the work in the next grade?
The best thing that ever happend to me was failing a grade. School was boring ,but failing at least woke me up that I had to put in a little more effort. I graduated from college with Honors. College was not boring, we coverd twice the material in half the time.
By Janine
September 26, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this
catladyHow true, How true! but, you know, it’s very difficult to enforce standards when the administrations are throwing up roadblocks at every turn. I see new teachers just give up before their first year is out because they get no support when they try to stick to their standards.
By catlady
September 26, 2006 05:19 PM | Link to this
jim d- I don’t know anyone who has caught any flak about students not passing. (after all, they ALL pass on). However, I am not a grade-level teacher. Perhaps there is something I don’t know. Maybe more than one thing…:)
The biggest stir in our county was not making AYP because several of the schools did not and it knocked out the whole county. There HAS been a good bit of hand-wringing about that. (It looks bad). Special ed and ESOL are blamed for the AYP failure, so although the kids were sent on it still counts as not having met AYP.
For decades our system has subscribed to the “holding them back hurts their self-esteem” and now we have added the “gotta make them successful, at whatever cost” with a very skewed version of “successful”. ‘Course, we get what we ask for: one of the lowest graduation rates in the state. No one has explained how dropping out affects the student’s self esteem, and how it is a measure of success. But we keep cranking out dropouts to work in the mills and chicken plants, so the middle and upper classes can look down their noses and be happy! Above all, profit! Someone has to do those jobs! For years the poor mountain folk had no black folks to look down on, but thank God! The Latinos are here! We can blame them for everything wrong in our county now.
I fear for us.
By educatormyself
September 26, 2006 05:33 PM | Link to this
Janine, I have stopped “wondering” why. It simply depresses me to analysis the situation. I have an 11-year-old and a 4-year-old. I educate mine and those that I come into contact with thru my job. I give 110%!
By JH
September 26, 2006 05:40 PM | Link to this
Should anyone be surprised at these numbers? The CRCT is extraordinarily simple; yet we have these high failure rates. These are symptoms of a broken down, rotten education system that is devoid of competition and occupied by aristocrats (PTAs, teachers union, inept educators/administrators) whose primary goal is to perpetuate this failed system rather than educating our kids. If I bought a broken toaster from Walmart, I can get a refund. Would the parents of those kids who failed the CRCT be able to get a refund of their precious tax dollars? Would the parent of those kids who failed the CRCT be able to take their hard earned tax dollars to a different school and give those kids a fighting chance? As a parent, I am livid that the state’s enforcement of the CRCT standards represents only half of the equation. Where is the other half? How do I as a parent (who cannot move and who cannot send my kids to private school) offer my child a better option than going back to the same school that has failed him already?
By Janine
September 26, 2006 05:57 PM | Link to this
JHSpeaking as a long time teacher…Unless I were the parent of one of those students who will excel where ever he/she goes to school ..[the top 10% of students in public school do as well on tests,etc. as those in private school].. I would do whatever is necessary to get him/her out of public school in Ga. I would work 3 jobs, move my home, home school myself or find someone good who would. I would borrow money…it’s an investment.
By Common Sense
September 26, 2006 08:22 PM | Link to this
It is about time that there is SOME consequence to not studying and doing your work. We have been teaching children that it is OK to be lazy and unmotivated because there is NO difference between being promoted to the next grade and being placed in the next grade.
It is a dangerous combination when students are lazy and have poor work ethic combined with marginal intelligence. This equation breeds trouble in the classroom where these students have only the desire to disrupt others who wish to get their education.
The tragedy I see with the graduation coach for high schools is that instead of reality being part of high school, we are moving toward placing students in the graduation ceremony who have not earned the diploma.
9th grade used to be the ‘wake-up’ year when students finally realized that if you don’t do the work you fail and get to take the class again. I am thrilled to stop students who can’t read or add from getting to high school where they should have earn each grade instead of being placed in the next grade.
By alice
September 27, 2006 08:32 AM | Link to this
JH
Tell me what you have done to help your child yourself? Have you quizzed (nightly) math facts, review science definitions, made sure homework is done, read to your child or had your child read to you nightly, conferenced regularly with teachers and administrators about your child’s progress (or lack of it) and asked for an evaluation for special ed if all is fails?
The schools cannot do it all… and private schools expect parents to do everything I wrote on that list and more. Parents are their child’s first teacher and much of learning needs to be reinforced at homs.
By SET
September 27, 2006 08:57 AM | Link to this
Of course we have “repeaters”.
Educrats are to politically correct to admit that there is a range of IQ in humans and that a certain percentage of each grade of students don’t have the intelligence to academically advance past that grade level. This number gets larger every school year.
Educrats would presumably flog the dull students and tell them that they are “lazy” etc - blame the students, their parents and the teachers. Some Educrats have the nerve to suggest teacher pay should be docked for the presence of dull students.
You can’t teach a pig to fly. No amount of trying will do so.
Just as bright students should be identified and pushed into academic programs that take advantage of their IQ, dull students should be identified and removed to programs that they can use and that they can succeed with.
The current system is malicious. It gives needless rage and harms to the brights, the dulls, their families and to the teachers.
Brave New World.
By jim d
September 27, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this
Cat,
I contend that the “Second time around” isn’t the same test. The questions on the second test have a statistical history of being answered more correctly. School systems and the testing companies are well aware of this and must do it in order to show improvement in the students. Can you imagine the fall out if they in fact retained 25% of the students that took the first test? Statistically they shoot to fail between 3% and 5%. It was predicted on this blog earlier this year that we would see a massive retest success an a huge number passed on waivers.
Why else would you think they hold these tests as such top-secret documents? Again I contend it’s because if the public realized what a sham the testing craze really is, heads would roll. Personally, I’ve managed to have a peek at some of these tests (I’m not at liberty to say when or how) and can assure you they contain questions regarding materials that have not taught, use words students have never even been exposed to and contain a lot of very poorly worded questions.
By KA
September 27, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this
My suggestion (again) is creation of reading and math bootcamps; intensive classes which would concentrate on bringing the students’ reading and math skills up to grade level. Bootcamps could be created for age groups; lower primary, upper primary, middle school and high school. Regular classes would be suspended for these students until they get back to grade level performance. Drastic intervention is needed. I think bootcamps could work.
By IOC
September 27, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this
KA I really want your job - so much time to post the same thing over and over again
By jim d
September 27, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this
KA,
I fail to see how boot camps will help with poor quailty testing materials ubless you plan to send the test designers to boot camp. :-)
By SET
September 27, 2006 12:01 PM | Link to this
KA: The bootcamp thing is a fallacy. You assume that all the failing students are capable of performing at grade level. They are not. Your bad assumptions will hurt the people you supposedly want to “save”.
The Catholic Church set up primary schools all over California in the 20th Century. They used notorious methods for teaching all comers - including the blacks, the mexicans, italian and irish immigrants, children of the working poor, etc etc. Yes they did get the best performance possible out of their students - at the end of a ruler. I’d have no problem with re-using their teaching tactics to a point. But even the Catholics educators realized that some people couldn’t cut it at college level (Not ready for Notre Dame) because they are missing something. Our Educrats don’t seem to get it.
Besides, starting bootcamp tactics on a post-pubescent group when they’ve been allowed to grow “like topsy” in the primary grades just won’t work. Ditto forced sommer school. You will just get more rage. This rage translates to school graffiti and vandalism, teacher abuse or worse.
If we want better performance from all our kids we need to 1> run the primary schools in a no-nonsense fashion like the nuns did. and 2> by 9th grade segregate the schools so those who are not equipped to handle abstract thought (IQ <95?) are enrolled in vocational and alternative schools. It goes without saying that grades 9 through 12 would be run in a no-nonsense manner also. Students need to be told early and often that they can become unskilled labor and live in poverty or something better, their choice. As a society we also need to end the welfare-mother option as an option and make it easy (for other family at least) to remove children from women who can’t support them.
The “repeater” syndrome is not a crisis or the end of the world. It’s just the bell curve at work. We can find a place in society for these kids if we deal with them head on and not let the dull kids set their own agendas - or languish in our lackadaisical schools.
Yes we should be IQ testing our students and charting the numbers. Yes the scores are meaningful and not culturally biased. And I’m not advocating barring someone from Algebra I because of a low score if they want in and can keep up. I am advocating extablishing programs for the dull that lead to a career path - and spending money to do so. I don’t agree with keeping them in the larger group in academic schools and watching them fail at standard HS grad requirements. Then acting surprised and blaming everyone but the Educrats.
By Taxpayer
September 27, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this
But Karen, what would we do with the kids who don’t perform in the boot camps? A boot camp for boot camp maybe?
By JustMe
September 27, 2006 12:44 PM | Link to this
Come on guys! Karen just made a suggestion. No one knows if her suggestion would work or not. Why be so critical for making a suggestion?
All we know is that passing kids along from grade to grade when they continue to not perform does not work. We have to come up with an alternative.
Do any of you critics have a suggestion? What do you do with students that fail the CRCT? (And please, do not launch into some long message about completely revamping the entire educational system or some long message about the evils of the CRCT! That is not the question!!!!) Here are the obvious basics:
Hold the failures in the same grade until the do pass the CRCT.
Allow the failures to move to the next grade. Thus, allowing them to move through the educational system without showing that they have the content knowledge and knowing that those failures will likely never get a high school diploma.
Have some alternative class or school where the failures go for remediation until they do pass and can then move to the next grade.
Others?????
By nel
September 27, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this
JustMe;
You are so tight with your comments yesterday about grades given because a teacher liked a student and they behaved. I knew one particular child that was cute and respectful, made honor roll but could barely read and write, graduated high school and got a less maybe 600 on the SAT (whatever you get for just writing your name). This child was not served by any of the teachers because they all handled this child the same way giving a free pass through elementary, middle and high school.
By jim d
September 27, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this
Just me,
Given those choices, how about a combination of holding them back maybe twice to give them an opportunity and if they fail to take advantage of it, move them into an alternative school to teach them some technical skills. Failing to take advantage of the technical training we could get them a job at a Burger King.
By jim d
September 27, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this
Just me,
Another thought. What would you say to focusing in on a childs strengths rather than their failures.
Say we had a child that has above average reading skills but just dosen’t get math. Could we strengthen those skills enough that the child could graduate and find a meaningfull job using those skills? In other words, provide a diploma with attachments indicating what areas they were sucessfull in?
What do you think, might it work?
By meme
September 27, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this
I don’t think one student in our school system was held back in the 3rd, 5th or 8th grade. Not sure how that was accomplished but I don’t have any repeaters.
By SET
September 27, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this
I can’t believe how bad my typing was this AM. It’s been another hectic week around here. Sorry!
By Lisa B.
September 27, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this
Patti,
In response to your question yesterday, I teach 4th grade, so the two students who failed the CRCT last year were placed in 5th grade. It will be interesting to see what happens to them this year. In a neighboring county, students are retained any year they fail to pass the CRCT. A co-worker’s child was retained in 2nd grade for failing only the math portion of the CRCT.
By catlady
September 27, 2006 05:33 PM | Link to this
Just about any child should be able to pass. Special ed and esol can have the test READ to them, for goodness sake! If a child fails because of misnumbering, they will pass it in the summer, if they have the skills. This really is a minimal test, and, as jim d says, the I have no doubt the results are manipulated. Folks, wake up! If a child fails it they should NOT go on unless they are very handicapped or just off the boat ESOL (who are exempt from the reading portion,anyway, for the first year). The argument about retaining does not hold water. You don’t retain just for the retained child, but for his classmates also, whose education is affected by the repeated dumbing down of curriculum teachers do so those with limited skills can be “successful.”
By Lisa B.
September 27, 2006 06:46 PM | Link to this
In my school system, the teachers have been told that at least 80% of each of our students must pass the CRCT. If fewer than 80% pass, the teacher receives nasty comments on the year-end evaluation. This happened last year. We have been told we better not have two years in a row of fewer than 80% of our students passing or our jobs are endangered. By mid-year, some teachers begin playing the game of “bounce the student.” Teachers know by then which kids will likely fail the test. Some of those were “bounced” into my classroom in Feb. and March. Even at that late date, I am accountable for their test scores. I don’t ever kick out any of my students, because I never give up on them. Still, with all the talk of tying teacher pay to test scores, and threats against teachers’ jobs because of scores, it is easy to see how some teachers work to get failing students removed from their classes. Where I teach, its all about the “Test.” The kids better pass it, or else. Too bad if Little Johnny has low IQ.
By Lisa B.
September 27, 2006 06:49 PM | Link to this
Cat,
You make an excellent point in favor of student retention. I honestly waver on this issue. At times I just don’t think retention works, and dislike the idea of “older” children mixed in with the young children. However, you are correct that trying to help poor-performing students stay with their peers probably does dumb-down the entire group. Great point. Thanks!
By KA
September 28, 2006 08:33 AM | Link to this
Just me, Thanks for coming to my defense yesterday. SET, I don’t assume that ALL students are capable of learning. IMO many failing students are just poor readers who are capable of learning, and resourceful enough to hide their problem and get passed along. In elementary some don’t learn to read because of home or health reasons. In K- 2nd grades you learn to read, then from 3rd grade on you read to learn. So, starting in 3rd grade poor readers fall behind quickly because they can’t read, comprehend and complete their work fast enough. SET, face it, PC public schools will never adopt the Catholic school model. (I had 9 years of nuns and know their methods) SET, the world is wide and not all failing students come from a thug culture. I’ve tutored kids and young adults in reading, HS grads and drop-outs, some in prison, drop-outs who then studied for the GED and passed it. They were grateful for the chance to get back on a learning track. So, what’s the harm if schools give reading skills tests each year, identify those not on grade level, and put them in reading boot camps to get them up to grade level? I think we could get many back on track. Kumbaya y’all.
By MA
September 28, 2006 09:50 AM | Link to this
In my school every one of the third graders who failed the test either passed the re-test or successfully appealed except one. He transferred to a private school and was automatically promoted to 4th grade. The test is a joke and in twelve years we will graduate a crop of seniors who know nothing about literature, art, foreign language, music, or social studies but they will know how to bubble in a test answer sheet. And they will be your future teachers, lawyers, doctors, builders, restaurant inspectors, and scariest of all —voters.
By jim d
September 28, 2006 09:59 AM | Link to this
Won’t take 12 years MA,
The “over the top type parents” in Frisco Tx. are pushing it much faster.
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/state/15607634.htm
By AParent
September 28, 2006 10:08 AM | Link to this
What does anyone know about the Mill Creek High School lockdown going on now
By Leia
September 28, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this
Mill Creek is off of lock-down status now. They had to lock it down to find some students who had been involved in a fight.
By SET
September 28, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this
KA: I agree that teachers should do all they can to push the students to perform their best. That varies from the Nun’s tactics to extra tutoring and summer school. I believe it is the administration’s responsibility to cull the herd of students who are clearly misplaced into the program and transfer these mismatched students to more suitable schools.
I have a problem when bootcamp tactics are used on a student who is clearly not cabable of advanced work. It’s wrong to berate a student with an IQ of 85 because they are not keeping up in work that requires an IQ of 100. This is what our current national school system is doing. In fact, we deliberately refuse to IQ test students, especially the black students, and refuse to offer placement alternatives early when the differences in the IQ capable students is becoming apparent and the rage is building. Notice is said “offer placement alternatives”.
Forced transfers can come later when the student is flat out failing. But fail they should. It’s wrong to in any way lower standards so that the dull can “fit in” with the bright. People need to be encouraged to maximize their potential and that doesn’t include hanging around in a program you can’t manage. After years working with people headed to prison and returning from prison I believe that most of them could have been functional in an occupation if they were matched with one early. Academic High Schools cemented their disfunctional ways.
I know high school dropouts who own homes and raise families on trades such as auto repair and the building trades. Fortunately for them they dropped out (of High School) and got into their field where they excelled from the beginning. There is a saying that if you are going to make a living with your hands you’d better start early.
But that’s only my experience. Others may have different thoughts.
By catlady
September 28, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this
Maybe SET and others have the idea. The kids that repeatedly fail to meet our very low criteria on CRCT or other achievement tests should be retained, put into very basic classes away from younger kids, and taught a respectable trade. Perhaps sort of like the English and Germans and Japanese used to do (or maybe still do?) It would not be closing the door on a late bloomer, but recognizing that unless you show your academic aptitude, you will be given the opportunity to learn something hands-on that can support you and keep you out of jail. Knowledge that that was the result of non-performance (for whatever reason)might spur some of the fence-sitters to work harder, and save pain to those who cannot do the work. It might also let us get on with it for those who are more able/skilled.
Sometimes we have to recognize that the resources we are able/willing to devote to education, or anything else, are finite.
By Aparent
September 28, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this
Thanks Leia I couldn’t get a straight answer from the school. I swear this whole area is going down the drain with all these NY thugs moving in the area. They need to be dealt with before this becomes Norcross. My kids in elementary and high school have seen 5 bus fights all by blacks since the start of the year. I’m sorry but if you act like your stereotype I’m not going to be PC about it.
By hs sped
September 28, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this
Set-In my county, they tend to give IQ tests to minority students (and occasionally nonminority students)that score below 85 on, say, the WISCII, a nonverbal test, such as the TONI, that bumps them all up 20 points. They are then called LD and put into classes with students that have average IQs. Their lack of success is blamed on the teacher and/or the teaching methods. We are supposed to have our demographics proportionally match our disabilities. If we have too many of one minority fall into a certain disability category, we lose federal money. In our county we make sure that everything is proportional NO MATTER WHAT IT TAKES. I think the entire public education system is just going to have to fall in upon itself and be rebuilt. It’a all about money right now. There’s so much money to be made in education whether it be through textbooks, new and innovative teacher training, or new testing. Whatever.
By jim d
September 28, 2006 12:58 PM | Link to this
No way Sped, just ask any school administrator —-they’ll tell you “it’s all about the kids” Of course what they won’t tell you is that kids = $$$
By Hmm
September 28, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this
What about the kids who always exceed the scores? What’s the point of all this CRCT focus for them? They get nothing out of it, no advancement, no improved alignment to their capabilities, etc. They’re just Stuck.
The schools always focus on the lowest common denominator, and it’s driving me crazy today.
By KA
September 28, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this
SET, I agree with you that if a student fails, then he shouldn’t be passed on, and shouldn’t be placed in a class where his presence will impede the progress of other students. I think we are talking about two groups of students. As you say, if IQ testing shows an 85 or lower score, then put the student in a class where he can learn life skills, basic reading and math, and a trade. The group I am talking about is a large group of students who missed the boat on reading early in their education. IMHO these kids can be saved. If they get the remedial reading they need then they have a much better chance of performing on grade level and succeeding.
By KA
September 28, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this
SET, Also when I say bootcamp, I don’t mean an atmosphere that is anything like a military bootcamp where one is berated. I mean that it is a focused skills class, with students working intensively to improve their reading skills.
By SET
September 28, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this
Aparent: All this goes back to the Pasadena controversy when the school district tried to silence (they suspended him) a teacher who wrote a memo discussing that the incoming (increasingly black) cohorts can be expected to run down the stats - and the teacher’s shouldn’t tolerate pay penalties tied to performance. The District backed down when threatened with a lawsuit - the teacher was reinstated, I believe with pay.
When you are confronted with a black (or whatever) influx you can calculate fighting and other behavior using racial norms among other things (try “experience?).
In this Brave New World the use of statistics and psychometrics makes it easier to accurately predict behavior. Liberals pretend that all humans act and think alike although any sane person knows otherwise from experience. All profiling is controversial with starry eyed idealists, including racial profiling.
I don’t mean you have to actually have the fighting and other problems - but you know what to expect and can take action accordingly - or just close your eyes and act surprised.
I prefer to deal with problems head on and with eyes open. If the bus thing is out of control it’s because administration is incompetent and can’t run a school as well as the Nuns did. If administration can’t keep the lid on and make the kids behave - they should be publicly fired and someone else allowed to try a different approach. Until the problems are settled. Until Madea is hired to drive the bus.
At some point a parent may just give up on a school district and take their kids elsewhere (it’s called “white” flight except the professional class blacks & asians are out in front running faster). And it doesn’t matter what race anybody is. Either the schools are decent or they’re not and decent people don’t use that district.
Black Schools before Brown vs Board of Education were not the cesspools they are now. It’s the introduction of (black and white) liberals who can’t successfully run a school with large numbers of blacks in it, that have produced this problem.
Brave New World.
By Billy
October 2, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this
To the mom that does not want her child reading Harry Potter books I respect that. BUT, to the same mom I have a simple question. Why should 1 person dictate to an entire school what the rest of the students should. This shold be left up to the parents of those children and not her. I view this as another person with tooo much time on their hands just trying to make a name for themself. My son has read all of the books so far. To my knowledge he has not atemmpted any form of witchcraft. It is a book of fiction, one to be read for enjoyment. Besides , these books are extremly popular and get kids who normally don’t read, to read. And the last time I checked that is what schools are stressing now, READING.