By Nja

September 25, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this

I just wanted to say I find that statement very interesting. EVERY school in which I have worked, the resources go to the best students.

By JustMe

September 25, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this

Interesting blog!

One issue that the principal may have also been dealing with is if the middle school even had a math teacher capable/qualified to teach geometry.

However, more to the point… Schools are so much focused on reaching a goal - in standardized test scores, in SAT, in whatever. While this does mean attention is given to those students that is struggling, it also means that less attention is given to those that are advanced/gifted.

Is it wise to “hold back” the advanced until the school average goes up? I think not.

DeKalb County is doing this is a major way with the “high schools that work” program that I’ve mentioned before. For a given course, every teacher must teach the same material on the same day. And, every teacher must give the same test on the same day. This is putting every student in the same box, and it just will not work. However, all of DeKalb County is on this path.

By OldSchool

September 25, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this

Since our high school just lost one of its best ever math teachers to retirement, I offer this suggestion: Perhaps a newly retired math teacher could be hired to teach that one class at the middle school. If that is not possible, maybe an excellent math teacher could be put on extended day to teach just the middle school students in a classroom at the high school (depending on travel time.)

Another possibility is hiring a teacher to teach those same students either before or after the regular school day at the middle school.

I think accomodations should be made for these high achieving students…I just might not have the best solution.

By jim d

September 25, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this

This clearly is an instance where parents were a bit too demanding. It would appear the principal was willing to make some concession to accomodate these students and the parents weren’t willing to meet him / her half way.

He was willing to furnish transportation which would have come out of the schools budget, so we can’t say he was depriving these students of available resources.

From what information you’ve provided I’d say the principal made a reasonable offer, one that under certain curcumstance would save taxpayers a tidy sum of money compared to the cost of hiring another full time teacher and moving in another trailer to teach and house the class of 12 students for one period a day.

I go with the standing offer to provide transportation.

By JustMe

September 25, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this

jim d

One thing to remember is the logistics. While yes, the principal was willing to provide transportation, this probably meant that those students would be missing another class (for travel time) in addition to the class for math. And, I doubt that the parents would want that.

You are right that, on paper, it appears as though the principal was offering an alternative solution. But to advanced students and their parents, it really was not a solution at all.

By HB

September 25, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

I don’t know that these parents were being too demanding, jim. Having to travel could be quite an inconvenience. First, I’d be surprised if the class schedules for both schools lined up. Class periods may not even be the same length. Students would quite likely miss a few minutes of one or more of their other subjects every day.

I hope they found a way for these kids to continue to excel at their own school. If the school is going to offer Algebra II to 7th graders each year, the same problem will arise again and again. They need to have a good plan in place for those advanced 8th graders too, and shuttling does not sound like a great long-term solution. JustMe is right — it can’t all be about the middle achievers! We need to try to serve all kids as best we can.

By Janine

September 25, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this

There is no doubt that NCLB has forced schools in the position of focusing on weaker students. In Dekalb, bringing up the scores of those who do not meet the standards is absolutely the primary focus. In addition, the cut off scores for the gifted programs has been set so low now that the truly gifted students are in classes with those who really should not be there. It is even different at different schools. And..if you were to compare the methods for choosing students for gifted/advanced programs 20 years ago with those now, you would be astonished….

By Janine

September 25, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this

So Patti…in answer to your question…If I were principal, at least in Dekalb, I would have no choice but to do what the educrats in the county office said to do….Principals are pretty much YES guys/gals…BUT If I were Superintendent…I do as a couple of systems have already done or are threatening to do….TELL THE FEDS TO KEEP THEIR MONEY AND FORGET NCLB RULES AND REGULATIONS ETC. THen get back to real education of our students…

By jim d

September 25, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this

Just me,

Excellent points. Since MS and HS school days do start and end at different times, perhaps a first period class at the high school would have worked. The real problem then would have been the extended day for these middle school students and this would be the case teaching it in the MS before or after regular school. Then of course there’s the question of what do to with these students for the one period they don’t have a scheduled class.

I really do like Old Schools suggestion of hiring a retired teacher for this class even if it did require another trailer. Because the classroom could be used by other retired teachers, teaching advanced classes in other subjects during the day. I’m confident there are students excelling in every subject that could benefit from a program like this.

By Shar

September 25, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this

If the middle school is offering Algebra II to seventh graders, it seems incumbent upon the system to be sure that an appropriate class is available for those students in eighth grade.

I would agree with the parents. The option offered by the principal is inadequate for several reasons. The travel time will indeed eat into the class time preceeding and following the high school class, leaving the students AND the teachers of the shortened classes at a serious disadvantage. Just as important, it is not necessisarily safe to put eighth graders in with a high school population. The younger students are significantly smaller and less socially developed than the high school students, and animosity can develop if the advanced eighth graders outperform the high schoolers. This happened to my niece in Los Angeles, where the school system decided to imbed a special program for highly gifted middle schoolers into a failing high school in order to have more “equity” in the gifted resources. There were death threats to those kids who did not want to join the established gangs, sexual attacks in the bathrooms, etc. The program was disbanded before the end of the year for security reasons.

Putting appropriate curriculum into schools, including classes in a logical academic sequence, is a basic job requirement for school system administrators. It isn’t really a principal’s call. Any barely functional central planner must know that offering Algebra II to seventh graders will necessitate offering geometry in the eighth grade. Sounds to me as if the central office failed and was trying to push the resulting consequences down to the kids’ level, and the parents were trying to push it back up the line.

By scv

September 25, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

Clarification needed…was it maybe Algebra I they were taking in 7th grade. I thought the usual progression was Algebra I, Geometry, then Algebra II. It seems strange a middle school would have offered Algebra II. If so, then that teacher is certainly qualified to teach Geometry as well. Regardless, I think the school definitely should make accomodations for the students by offering the Geometry class at their own school. With 12 kids, logistically it makes more sense for the teacher to be there and not have them all leave school grounds. And it could be detrimental for the students to have to take a year off in the sequence b/c they are ahead. Why even offer Algebra in 7th grade if that is the case? Of course, the kids could take Geom. at the h.s. in summer school but summers are sacred around here.

By decaturparent

September 25, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this

Janine - I think I love you! My greatest hope is that as “affluent” schools with connected parents start closing or restructuring under NCLB, political pressure will force legislators and our state school super to just say no to NCLB. The pittance fromt the feds that states receive doesn not justify the nightmare it creates.

Re gifted students, this is my only comment. If only children with gifted minds were given the same attention and resources as children with gifted muscles (i.e. the school athletes) we might be able to maintain our competitiveness worldwide.

By Patti Ghezzi

September 25, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this

svc - You are correct. My mistake. Algebra 1 was offered to these advanced students in 7th grade, while their peers were taking pre-algebra. Eighth-graders would normally take Algebra 1, so these kids’ parents wanted them to move on to geometry. Thanks for pointing that out!

By 4th year in Hell

September 25, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this

Why not have the parents drive them? Why not have the parents enroll them in a private math class? These parents should understand that they are raising their children in one of the worst places for a public education in the country…I don’t know why and God knows I’ve been trying to help change this, but nothing seems to work! These parents have 4 more years of dealing with more problems just like this for their ‘lil overachievers… I suggest private schools or moving to another state because the problems in Georgia haven’t changed in the 4 years I’ve been here and I doubt they’ll change in the following 4.

By 4th year in Hell

September 25, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

Why not have the parents drive them? Why not have the parents enroll them in a private math class? These parents should understand that they are raising their children in one of the worst places for a public education in the country…I don’t know why and God knows I’ve been trying to help change this, but nothing seems to work! These parents have 4 more years of dealing with more problems just like this for their ‘lil overachievers… I suggest private schools or moving to another state because the problems in Georgia haven’t changed in the 4 years I’ve been here and I doubt they’ll change in the following 4.

By Shar

September 25, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this

If the middle school is offering Algebra II to seventh graders, it seems incumbent upon the system to be sure that an appropriate class is available for those students in eighth grade.

I would agree with the parents. The option offered by the principal is inadequate for several reasons. The travel time will indeed eat into the class time preceeding and following the high school class, leaving the students AND the teachers of the shortened classes at a serious disadvantage. Just as important, it is not necessisarily safe to put eighth graders in with a high school population. The younger students are significantly smaller and less socially developed than the high school students, and animosity can develop if the advanced eighth graders outperform the high schoolers. This happened to my niece in Los Angeles, where the school system decided to imbed a special program for highly gifted middle schoolers into a failing high school in order to have more “equity” in the gifted resources. There were death threats to those kids who did not want to join the established gangs, sexual attacks in the bathrooms, etc. The program was disbanded before the end of the year for security reasons.

Putting appropriate curriculum into schools, including classes in a logical academic sequence, is a basic job requirement for school system administrators. It isn’t really a principal’s call. Any barely functional central planner must know that offering Algebra II to seventh graders will necessitate offering geometry in the eighth grade. Sounds to me as if the central office failed and was trying to push the resulting consequences down to the kids’ level, and the parents were trying to push it back up the line.

By Jennifer

September 25, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this

I think that if multiple solutions were discussed by a group of diverse parents, and educators (local and county level)- a good solution would have come up, whatever that ended up being. Having differing perspectives (parents, students, even county administrators) involved in the early discussion would probably help identify resources no one had even imagined. It also would have avoided frustrated parents, as well as a frustrated principal who was trying to come up with a good solution.

Just look at the great ideas that have come out of a blog !

By NI7

September 25, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this

Just to reinforce Janine’s comments. Last year at my school the teachers were given the names of the students whose scores “counted” but who did not score high enough on the CRCT to pass. We were told to focus on those students and pretty much forget the rest. Because I taught a gifted class and had many students whose scores would not “count” I found this intolerable! Every student should be given the opportunity for a great education whether their scores counted or not. Taking higher level classes or remedial classes should be based on the need of the student not on the outcome of a test.

By jim d

September 25, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this

Janine,

It’s not just NCLB pushing the movement of teaching to the bottom. We have state tests and in some counties like Gwinnett having things like their Gateway test, teachers are being forced to what they must just to keep their jobs.

Don’t misunderstand, I have no problem with testing. It’s the use of these tests that causes me problems. Testing should be just another tool in an arsenal to measure where we must improve to help our students, not the sole means of failing or promoting students. As ironic as it may be, real teachers can tell you, with an uncanny ability, long before test day, which students will pass and which will fail.

I know many of you ask why you get little respect from parents. Perhaps it stems from the lack of trust and respect you garner from your employer. I will tell you this though. The day teachers take a stand and demand to be allowed to teach, I’ll take off work and be standing right beside you!

By jim d

September 25, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

Jen,

Two points, (and I’m really not trying to stir things) first have you ever seen a school system that would really listen to parents and two, when teachers must fear for their jobs from speaking out we can’t really expect them to buck the system.

Just my humble opinion but teachers need security from tyrannical school administrators and parents words need to be heeded.

By V for Vendetta

September 25, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

This is an interesting question. I agree with what jim said earlier, that the parents were being perhaps a wee bit too demanding; however, this is a great example of the focus and attention being placed on the bottom rung instead of on the top rung. Should we ignore those kids at the bottom? Hell no. Should we cater to them like they will all grow up to be President? Hell no. There is a middle ground there that we are getting away from. I like the suggestion of bringing a retired teacher back to work with the advanced class — great idea!

decaturparent — yes, yes I know we spend SO very much on athletics here in the South. Or do we? Many public high school football teams fund themselves through ticket sales, fundraisers, and the like. Other sports do fundraisers and charity work to raise money for their team’s equipment and resources. Sure, the counties contribute money, but not as much as you might think (certainly not as much as they throw at things like useless desktop computers and technology for the sake of technology).

Don’t be someone who demonizes athletics as the downfall of our public educational system, there are far bigger fish to fry.

By Em's mom

September 25, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this

I have to agree with decaturparent about the emphasis on athletics in some systems. When one enters our neighborhood high school, the first thing one sees is the huge wall of gold plaques — for athletics. The math trophies and Science Olympiad awards and so on are tucked away in a corner or thrown on top of a filing cabinet in one of the offices.

It’s not money, V, it’s attitude and emphasis. (My kid is in sports, so I agree with you on the self-funding).

As to Patti’s question, the principal should make the math class available at the school. However, I don’t think these parents are going to get anywhere with the principal, who probably can’t allocate the funds, etc. to make this happen. The parents should go to the county and make their request and get as many other parents as possible (including the ones who might want the class for their kids in the future) to support the idea.

Unless we want more kids headed to private school, we had better make sure that we provide adequate resources for high achievers, not just cater to the lowest common denominator. Nja, don’t know where your school is, but in my part of DeKalb, it’s the low achievers and disciplinary problem kids who get the resources.

By decaturparent

September 25, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

V - I’m not demonizing athletics - I love school athletics and think it really is a great unless is gets outrageously out of hand. I just would like to see kids who excel academically get the same treatment as those who excel in athletics. My experience is that it is very difficult to advocate for gifted kids because everyone thinks you are being elitist. However, talented athletes are doted upon.

Not doting is necessary…. I just think that if a kid has talents, they and their parents should be comfortable with it and not feel like they have committed some sin.

And… NCLB needs to go… it’s hurting all kids - not just the gifted.

By Ernest

September 25, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

Schools should have the ability to react to requests based on ‘supply and demand’. I like the idea suggested by OldSchool. If there are a minimum number of students available that need these classes, schools find a way to help meet the demand.

This requires some ‘out of the box’ thinking so in fairness, parents should work with the schools well in advance to find workable solutions. From my own personal experiences, we were able to get ‘high achievers’ classes added to each grade level for my children’s former ES because we were able to show a large number of children who needed additional challenges. It can work…

BTW, if anyone knows of any Highly Qualified, Advanced Math teachers looking for jobs, tell them to apply to ANY school system. The demand is GREAT for these teachers.

By Joy in teaching

September 25, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

Gifted students get more consideration via course scheduling and “money” spent on them than most people realize. Gifted students are little “cash cows” to most school systems. Schools recieve more federal funds for gifted students than regular ed students according to FTE counts. Additionally, if they are being served in a gifted class, there cannot be more than 21 students in that class or the school does not recieve funding for it. (Actually, it depends upon the model used for scheduling classes…there are different types.)

While it may sound outrageous to have a special class that meets the needs for 12 students, special ed classes get away with it all the time and for fewer students.

Makes ya think, doesn’t it?

By Aquagirl

September 25, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this

Considering the AJC has 1)an entire section devoted to H.S. sports, and 2) the individual pages for Gwinnett, etc. have numerous stories on football and other athletics, decaturparent has a point. Go ahead, take a minute and surf around the AJC website, that should point out where school resources and energy are really being allocated.

If these kids had been athletically talented, do you think there would have been any hesitation to provide them with opportunities to excel?

By MMM

September 25, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this

Hello all! I know I’m off topic, but, we just waved goodbye to the Georgia Partnership for Excellence in Education bus tour group at 2:00 today. We were the only metro Atlanta school on the tour this year.

Two buses full of foundation people, legislators, board members and the Superintendent. I am so tired, but very proud of our 5th grade tour guides, teachers who rearranged their schedules, students who ate bag lunches in their classrooms, 4th graders who sang, parents who organized, and Afghani families that started cooking at 3 a.m. despite Ramadan to prepare a memorable meal.

Have any of the rest of you expierenced these kinds of visitations? What did you get out of it? What help did you get from district personel to pull it off?

By Lisa B.

September 25, 2006 05:27 PM | Link to this

I too, like the idea of hiring a retired teacher to teach the class, and perhaps adding a trailer if needed. As was mentioned before, there could be a need for advanced classes in other areas. I certainly think it’s in everyone’s best interest to provide opportunities like this for our advanced students. These are the kids who will really make a difference in the future.

By JustMe

September 25, 2006 05:46 PM | Link to this

Off topic, but…

I have a love/hate relationship with NCLB. The love part: it really does identify schools and teachers that are failing the students. Schools that everyone has always thought were “bad” schools now have numbers to associate with them (CRCT, HSGT, and AYP). Do good schools sometimes get bad scores? Yes. But it is rare that bad schools somehow get good scores. Teachers that were “bad” teachers now have numbers to associate with them (EOCT). Do good teachers sometimes get bad scores? Yes. But it is rare that bad teachers somehow get good scores.

In order to improve education, we must identify the weak links first.

The hate part: all of the paperwork, BS, etc. But, in reality, this is not a direct cause of NCLB. It is a direct cause of bad administrators that really don’t know what else to do except “make work” for the teachers. So, they tell us (the teachers) to create word-walls, or write the GPS on the board every day, or do whatever else they can think of that might make a difference. Those administrators haven’t a clue that all of this crap they are forcing on the teachers is also hampering the good teachers in the meantime.

By frank123

September 25, 2006 06:08 PM | Link to this

The parents are way way too demanding. If they want special tutoring (in essence) for their kid, they should pay for it. What qualifications to the parents have to say that their kid is able to handle the material. The school can’t have a teacher teaching only 1 or 2 kids. What next? parent’s wanting their kids to learn some obscure Souix language, Islamic Home Econ classes, Broadcasting (taught by Rush), Fly fishing, Pitching Mechanics 101 (to be taught by Nolan Ryan)or Cosack horse back riding. These parents have the option of sending their kid to the high school. The school needs to be focusing on the kids whose parents don’t care and the kids are just taking up space until they are near graduation. The school has made enough of an accomodation. The parents can’t have it all their way, or else we will all end up paying through the nose for these wacky demands.

By Aquagirl

September 25, 2006 06:23 PM | Link to this

Geometry=Pitching Mechanics 101? You lost me there, Frank.

If you think Geometry is a “wacky” demand, then you must have been one of the kids who was taking up space until graduation.

By OldSchool

September 25, 2006 06:52 PM | Link to this

Hey JustMe! We may be agreeing on something here! I got called on the carpet for not having a word wall in my Engineering Drawing class. So I simply replied “Life doesn’t come with a word wall.” You see, we “talk technical” in my class, using the terms and specialized language of the trade. The more students use it, the better they learn it.

I’m so danged sick of propping kids up when if they would just make an effort… I’m even more sick of the “shotgun” approach to school improvement/reform. One size does NOT fit all. Not all teachers/students; not all schools; not all areas of the state.

I’m lucky enough to be a boomer and I survived 8th grade Geometry. It was simply a given that all 8th graders took Geometry, 9th got Algebra II, 10th had Trig and seniors had the option of Advanced Algebra (equivalent to college algebra) or Calculus.

Any principal worth his/her salt will move heaven and earth to accomodate those potential Geometry students. Maybe they could ditch one football coach and get the money from there…hmmmm.

By SET

September 25, 2006 07:02 PM | Link to this

Here’s one solution.

Our local Jr. College has a high school within it. Advanced students can register/transfer into the high school there and be on campus to take college classes with the college students in the certain subjects they excell in, while taking the high school student only versions of other classes. The results seem to be that everybody is happy except for the sex issues that have popped up occasionally.

College students have been expelled and criminally prosecuted for sexual contact with the high schoolers. The Jr. Colleges have their own police depts and their discipline is swift and terrible - they arrest and book in the county jail - and file felony charges - and suspensions are instantaneous and later administrative hearings are swift.

I would like to see colleges in general start high school programs for advanced high school students - at least allow exceptional students to do their Junior and Senior years of High School at College.

We do need to provide a route for our highest IQ students to stay challenged. These arrangements provide for the High School kids to take some classes exclusive to themselves while being on campus to schedule in regular college classes in subjects where they are able to handle adult competition.

The sex thing is not to be underestimated.

One of our new problems is that there is legislation pending in CA to make it a crime for registered sex offenders (we have in CA over 100 thousand actually registered with a additional huge number refusing to register) to be in the presence of “children”.

If that passes - what are the Jr colleges going to do? Do they ban the (numerous) registered sex offenders from taking college courses on campus (confine them to internet classes only?) or do they ban the high school student programs from the main campus?). We have day care centers on our Jr College Campuses also.

Brave New World. People are busy breaking out into classes and clusters - like with like. The process starts early now.

By jim d

September 26, 2006 08:40 AM | Link to this

Just me, a bit off topic.

But Did you see this one today? Any thoughts?

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2006/09/25/0926mettest.html?imw=Y

Personally I think it appears a few thousand parents may be challenging NCLB and are willing to allow their children to be retained.

I can’t help but wonder what those classroom will look like. Will we soon find 16 year old 4th graders or will the state pass them on through?

By jim d

September 26, 2006 08:52 AM | Link to this

Ok, we’re all pretty much in agreement in this instance, but let’s explore a different scenario.

In Gwinnett County Middle schools are being built adjacent to the new high schools. Would it still be innapropriate to have an 8th grader attend a class in the high school provided scheduling could be worked out?

By Janine

September 26, 2006 09:27 AM | Link to this

jimd RE your 8:40 “off topic” post. THe key “out” for the state as well as the student/parent is that little mice type provision which says [paraphrasing] that if a panel composed of parent, teacher, counselor, adm, et. al. agree , the student may go to the next grade. In my experience before and after NCLB, very few students were ever held back because, in most cases, the parent had the last word….which may be the “whatever you want Mom, just don’t sue us ” syndrome…!

By jim d

September 26, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this

Janine,

You could be right. I just like to take an opptomistic view that perhaps parents are lining up to put a halt to some of this foolishness known as NCLB.

By jim d

September 26, 2006 10:09 AM | Link to this

Does anyone know if the funding formula is the same for elementary, Middle and High school students in Georgia?

The reason I ask is because when I was a kid it was common place for a student to skip an entire grade. Rarely do I see that happening anymore. Is it funding or are there other reasons? (well, other than the age appropriate groups contentions)

By MMM

September 26, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

Skipping is too “out of box”, they would rather be in denial and have them all goose step together.

By catlady

September 26, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this

The school should provide an on campus class for these students and thank God for the opportuntity! Parents of bright and gifted students need to mobilize themselves as parents of special ed kids have, to get the proper services for their kids! Thanks to a strong special ed lobby, I would guess special ed outspends gifted/talented by a 50-1 ratio, at least, taking the average spent per identified child. It is criminal that we do not support these children to the fullest extent!

By jim d

September 26, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

cat,

Those of us with gifted kids have found it easier to supplement what the schools are doing for our kids ourselves rather than fight a no win battle.

By TD

September 26, 2006 06:26 PM | Link to this

If the advanced math students have to travel to the high school for a class then the remedial kids should have to travel to the elementary school for the lower level work.

By Hmm

September 28, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this

There are a couple online courses the kids can take. The school should pay for and allow the credit/grades from the online courses. If they’re unwilling to match their math level appropriately, they should be very open to alternatives. Maybe an independent-study/online-course type program with the local high-school? Maybe 1 day/wk at the local highschool with a teacher at the middle monitoring? The transportation offered is a good compromise!

Otherwise, just like jim d said, they supplement on the side.

By Jean

September 28, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

Yes other states let students take online courses FOR FREE. Georgia needs to step up to the plate on this one.

By Hmm

September 28, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

You know, I’m sure most of us know this site, but just in case you don’t, it’s glorious for advice, what’s worked, what other states do, etc. It’s specific to Math acceleration, but it does address it. Hoagie’s Gifted. Maybe Patti could add it or something similar to the left resource bar?

I wish there were more resources like it online, specifically something more of a headlines news orientation would be great. But, alas, maybe there isn’t much news since nothing ever seems to be addressed for this population? Yea, I’m being a little bitter.