Get Schooled

By V for Vendetta

September 19, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this

Yes and no

The amount of idiotic parents seems to be growing. I’m not sure if it is a generational thing, a product of our overly “PC” society, or the fact that certain sub-cultures put about as much emphasis on education as I put on saving endangered pandas. The bottom line is this: as a teacher, it’s a pain in the arse!

Parents are terrible now. Their kids have no accountability, it’s always someone else’s fault (usually the teacher picking on the child). They want special treatment for their kids (oh sure little Johnny is ADD, now can he have a take-home version of the SAT?). They pull their kids out of school on their 16th birthday to get their driving permits!!!! My parents exact words to me on that day were something like “you think driving is more important than school? Get real!”

I have an entire list of parents who email every week asking for progree reports and updates on their child. If I forget, or something comes up, they call the school wanting to know why I am not doing what teachers are supposed to do! (Hint: we do not HAVE to send home weekly progress). But if I send them a report that says their child is doing poorly and has missed assignments, you know what happens? NOTHING. Some parent.

Parents now want us to believe they care. I call it the “illusion of caring”. Heaven forbid anyone think they are a bad parent! So they will ask questions, request meetings, badger counselors, and basically drive people nuts — and for what!? NOTHING! They never correct the child, discipline the child, or make any difference what-so-ever. The child still comes to school armed with his mp3 player, PSP, car, or whatever. Pathetic.

Someone bring back corporal punishment! I don’t care what the psychologists say!

By SET

September 19, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this

I really don’t think so. But try anything, at least for awhile.

The problem parents around here have multiple problems, no insight, and bad attitudes. You can’t change a lifetime of culture and conditioning with “glorious things” such as toys, games and workbooks.

I believe referring the parent to social services and/or frequently communicating with (reporting to) the parent’s probation/parole officer or social worker will do the most good (the parent has no privacy rights re: probation and parole - it’s not a problem getting communication going with them) Also getting permission to communicate directly with grandparents and other co-caretakers of the child is useful. There are a lot of community resources for families if we can just get the needy to start using them.

In CA we have the Healthy Families program which provides full HMO (Kaiser, etc) health care including psychiatric services for under age 19 for $20 or so a month. It was intended to get health coverage for kids of the working poor ($50k a year with 4 kids is working poor??) You have to chase people and talk them into signing up. You wouldn’t believe how many kids of families making that kind of money have no health coverage at all because it’s “too expensive” to accept coverage through work. Kids with behavior problems are afforded evaluations and counseling with this.

Increased use of EMail, webpages for parent/guardian access of attendance, grades and deportment charts, and posting of school policy papers and referral listings are a major improvement. Some may say that the poor people (who are most likely to have behavorial problems?) don’t have access to these things - but that’s not always true and changing daily around here.

Patti: Can you have a blog topic on should/do schools track health coverage for students and require or pressure parents to establish coverage? And should schools screen students for acute dental problems? I’ve seen a presentation at Rotary of photos of school kid’s mouths where criminal charges of child neglect were warranted.. I couldn’t understand how the school could allow this to go on - much less that parent. (I would expect charges against the parent and the teacher criminally on the same page for neglect and failing to report to the police/CPS.)

By SET

September 19, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

V - you have my vote on the Corporal Punishment, it’s very cost effective and produces low recividism rates. We should whip the parent and child side by side in Juvenile Court. And I also agree as to the primary schools. High School? I’d prefer to simply remove troublesome students to special (reform) schools (but allow floggings there).

By OldSchool

September 19, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

In my own humble opinion, I believe that we need to teach parenting skills to the teens who are having babies and who do not have parents able to model responsible parenting skills. Those same parents likely had no role models and that legacy may extend even further back. Rather than placing blame, young mothers and fathers could learn these skills in child development classes that allow them to interact with their own and other children under the close supervision of trained instructors. These centers could also provide daycare for the children and opportunities to teach other students as well. Perhaps students who think they want to work with little kids could learn early on that they aren’t cut out for that.

As for corporal punishment, if we can teach effective alternatives to our young parents, maybe we can make a lasting change for the better in both the parent and the child. Doesn’t that make more sense?

By SET

September 19, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this

Old School: You can’t expect to “Teach” anything to “young parents” on a large scale outside of inpatient homes for “wayward” boys and girls. Setting up voluntary programs to try to talk these kids out of reproducing like rabbits just doesn’t work. These personalities don’t even like the schools we have.

We have to free them from their freedom.

(Bonnie Pointer recorded a nice song about the concept - the refrain goes: “handcuff me, tie me to a tree! Free me from my Freedom!)

Anyway the ones we see aren’t “parents”. We see slovenly uneducated unintelligent girls who deliberately have (always?) more than one bastard child by different indolent boys, intending to live off of charity and not having to obey her mother (or anyone else). The life of the child(ren) is secondary to her own pleasures. You can’t talk her out of this.

What we can do is eliminate welfare (the incentive for this parasitical behavior) starting with eliminating the prenatal care and labor and delivery. Then if the child is delivered alive, allow the child to be quickly removed by the girl’s family or forcibly removed for adoption. Eliminate the right to child support from the unmarried father. Problem solved - by itself.

We won’t do this because as a matter of policy this government is deliberately promoting reproduction of a horde of unsocialized and dissafected people - I suppose in the name of love or human rights or something.

When you feed the birds you get more birds…

By T-Man

September 19, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this

There is a lost society out there and nothing is going to change them. Work on the furure similar to what oldschool has mentioned. It’s time to take the bad kids out of the public schools and put them in alternative school. This is one measure in the NCLB that will have to be changed. It is my understanding that if you suspend a kid from school it counts against the school for attendance. We must change this rule in NCLB to give the teachers and admin. a chnace. School discipline is the sounding words in all the blogs.

By SET

September 19, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this

A final comment about corporal punishment. In this Brave New World we are sending teenagers in CA to Adult Prisons for 25 to life, 100 to life and life without possibility of parole under the 3 strike law. I see young people getting huge terms for a car theft or possession of a gun (due to their priors).

I’d prefer whipping bad actors because I believe it will nearly eliminate the progression we see to these lifetime warehousing sentences being used on a daily basis here in CA and elsewhere. Corporal Punishment is common practice in Maylasia and many other Asian countries - so they don’t need to build the massive prison-industrial complex we do. People can get caught in crime, be punished, then go back to their families, work and school when they heal up. There is really good wound care available now.

What percentage of black males (for one example) 18-35 in prison is the right percentage? 25%, 50%, 70%?? And yes, the different genders & ethnics have different behaviors. Note the ratios of Asian Women in prison.

And yes, this acting out behavior all starts in the public schools. Prison inmates normally do not come from private or catholic schools. Almost of them are male and public school dropouts - and one point nearly all of them had a public school 3rd, and 5th grade teacher. Well we didn’t teach them well enough. So maybe we do have to start paddling bad actors on occasion in school. Do I have a problem with race and sex opposites on the other end of the paddle? No.

Let’s fix the parents, if it fits into our mission to teach children to survive in this society. But our first mission in public schools is to teach the children to survive. That doesn’t include teaching them to act out (by not making it hurt real bad).

Am I worried about civil rights and safeguards in the schools over this - not really. With upper limits in place, I’m interested in the students having to learn how to stay out of trouble however that trouble is triggered. Life isn’t always “fair”. Let them learn that early and learn how to be careful while the stakes are low.

By SNY

September 19, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this

I really wish that you people would get off of the corporal punishment kick. It is not going to happen. Why should a parent, any parent, trust you to hit their children? Listen to you on this blog, you sound like an angry mob. I wouldn’t want my child hit by one of you no matter what she did. You may hit too hard and leave a bruise. Then what? Would the state and DFACS say it is okay because the kids were misbehaving at school? No, they would lock up the parents because somehow it would be our fault that the teachers don’t know when to say enough is enough!!

V and SET, get over it, it isn’t going to happen again - EVER!!!

By Janine

September 19, 2006 03:08 PM | Link to this

Every time this subject [parental involvement] rears its ugly head, I have this nagging question that will not go away, and to which I have not be able to find a satisfactory answer. WHen did this notion that parents must be involved in the schooling of their children arise? Granted, this was back in the day, but my parents and the parents of my friends were never “involved”. They never went to school or worked with us ..other than maybe call out words for an upcoming spelling test or reviewing multiplication tables….maybe ..if they had time! THey just expected that we do our school work and if the teacher said we misbehaved, the punishment at home was that old proverbial worse than we got at school. Then, when my children came along, we had room mothers for parties and some fund raisers, and chaperoning field trips,but for the most part, parents were no more involved than that. I seem to always come to the same conclusion…it’s not parental involvement…IT’S PARENTAL ATTITUDE that is key in a child’s education.

By Matt

September 19, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this

Janine:

You must realize that the simple act of setting the EXPECTATION that a child WILL attend school, WILL pay attention, WILL learn, and WILL do his homework is by definition, being involved.

Being involved does not necessarily mean shuttling your 1.5 kids to and from school in a 3-ton SUV with the latest DVD player.

Being involved does not necessarily mean walking your child to the front door of the school every day.

Setting expectations IS being involved!!

By Janine

September 19, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this

Matt….*Of course attitude does fit the definition of involvement for some! However, in the discussions that usually come up here, involvement seems to always include, as it does today, going to the Parent Centers, taking parenting classes, volunteering in schools, being sure kids do their homework, and doing workbooks and skills games with them. These activities have not always been expected of parents and parents have not always been criticized for not participating in these ways.

By SNY

September 19, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this

Janine,

You are so right, my mother never did homework with me and she expected that my homework was completed daily. There were only three questions in my household about school. 1. How was your day? (Better give a real answer, not the one or two word answers that kids give today) 2. Do you have any homework? (Which back then was a given because every teacher always gave some homework) and 3. Is your homework done? (If we were having any type of fun at all, the answer better had been yes)

You are right about another thing as well, I definately never wanted my mom to come up to the school. I would have rather gone to the police station and put myself in jail. Why - because I would have rather been in jail than in the ground dead!!

By Janine

September 19, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

So SNY Can you pinpoint when all this , [for lack of a better word, Matt] INVOLVEMENT moved to center stage????

By SNY

September 19, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

Janine,

I don’t know. I graduated in ‘92 and I don’t know of any of my friends parents that were any more involved than my mother. Maybe it happened between ‘93 and ‘00. It seems to be the new middle schoolers and high schoolers that are the problem, from what the teachers on here say. I guess the kids aren’t afraid of their parents anymore. I am still afraid of my mother. Parents these days want to be friends. I look at it this way, we’ll have time to be friends when you grow up. I have to be your mom first.

By SET

September 19, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this

SNY: The most interesting point you make is that “it isn’t going to happen again - EVER”

History is replete with societies on the brink of cataclysmic change where people unsuccesfully bet their very lives that things would not “change”. They just couldn’t envision the world they wound up in 12 to 24 months later. The 20th Century alone is full of these periods. The 21st Century promises to have radical change occurring just as often and maybe more.

Right now there are so many lit fuses burning (affecting USA life) that I make a point of thinking what could occur 12 to 24 months out if certain problems we’re experiencing go badly. Maybe our debates are just an excercise. But I wouldn’t be so sure that various things aren’t “going to happen again - EVER”. Especially if they have happened before.

I agree that school paddling is not “likely” to occur in the forseeable future.

But we live in very interesting times. I would not be surprised to see Martial Law in this country within my lifetime. There is no way this country can continue as we are much longer economically, politically or socially. The public school system is so important to everyone’s lives it will be greatly affected by any national unheaval.

By OldSchool

September 19, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

SET, I’m still convinced that we need to start SOMEWHERE. I had great parents (not perfect but tough enough to be great in my view) and I learned quite a bit about how to parent from them and my grandparents (I am 56 to give you some idea of where I’m coming from.) Many of my students don’t have strong role models for parents. Neither did their parents or THEIR parents before them. We have to start somewhere teaching kids how to parent.

I can’t change the welfare system. I can’t change the parents these kids have. But maybe I can make a difference in a few students. For example: prior to any assembly program, I carefully explain the kind of behavior I expect from my students and the appropriate behavior/responses for the type of assembly we will attend as a class- concert, play, speaker, etc. Most have never had anyone teach them how to behave in these situations. I have never had to reprimand any of my students during or after an assembly because they knew what to do and what not to do. And I only had to teach it once and gently remind them just prior to the next. I extended the lesson by encouraging them to continue their appropriate behavior when at an after school function.

We have to start somewhere…teaching and modeling the appropriate behaviors for those who will get such instruction nowhere else.

It’s that “takes a village” thing.

By Ernest

September 19, 2006 05:05 PM | Link to this

Janine, I want to take a stab at your question. IMO, PI was the outcome as critical analysis was performed to determine characteristics of successful (and not so successful) schools. I know the measure used in our county is PTA involvement, something you can easily see, to determine the level of PI at a school. Correlations are then done to predict success on test course based on this measure. From casual analysis, you can see the impact this has on test scores, even with schools that have a ‘higher than average’ FRL population.

One would have to admit, ‘attitude’ is something difficult to measure. I am not discounting it because it is important.

By C.R.H.

September 19, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

To really “encourage” some of these “parents” to get involved or take some parenting courses, new laws need to be put in place REQUIRING certain things (parenting courses, mandatory school attendance, academic progress, no discipline referrals,etc…) to be linked to the welfare checks, SSI check or Section 8 subsidy. If these baby factory women and their “boyfriends” figure out that they get cut off & will actually have to work for a living if their little darling cuts school or gets written up…maybe they will actually start doing the right thing. It may even be enough to discourage them from wanting to have more kids! There were many instances when I called parents to inform them that their kid was failing miserably and disrupting the class and the parent simply responded with “what am I supposed to do about it?” (One more thing about my old career I do NOT miss!!!) I would have loved to have been able to respond with something along the lines of “If the problem doesn’t improve, I am going to have to report the issue with your caseworker and the welfare office to have your welfare & food stamps discontinued. Have a nice day.”

By SET

September 19, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this

OldSchool: That “village” line is something that Hillary C popularized - I think. To the extent it came from sub-sahara Africa I’d discount it as that region has never been able to produce anything resembling a civilization.

It takes Parents. It takes Teachers. It takes Employers. These are all people who have formal relationships with a child/adult acting like a child. Having a formal relationship brings with it the duty to supervise and train.

You can’t expect a neighbor, passer-by or child peer to take any role in supervision and training. That’s a fantasy - so are the policies of the democratic party. (and the republicans just want to steal and dominate everyone - Sigh…)

You teach deportment because it’s critical to learning, you are good at it and you believe in what you are doing. That’s why you are a good teacher. Nothing more needs to be said. I don’t understand at what point the public schools lost the knowledge that deportment is critical to learning. Sometime in the early 1970’s I think.

By JustMe

September 19, 2006 05:33 PM | Link to this

These resources may help the good parents become better. However, I agree with previous posters that the parents that need the most education on HOW to parent will not bother to help themselves.

Honestly, what can our society do with this type of parent? Do we take the children away from them - the conservatives would scream bloody murder! Should we really punish the child for having bad parents? I don’t think so.

And, as a high school teacher, I can assure you that “bad” kids do not come exclusively from low soicoeconomic families. Some of the worst students come from very wealthy families with absentee parents. I recall a set of twins that I taught where the father was a judge and the mother a doctor. Those were the worst kids ever and the parents did nothing but protect them and enable them.

IMHO, there should be a mandatory high school class taught to seniors about parenting….. I do not mean how to change diapers. I mean how to parent. How to teach the golden rules and the other things that the previous generation taught us. These are the things that were shown in TV in my day such as the Andy Griffen show, and even the Brady Bunch. Remember the little lessons that they put in those shows? Today, all the kids see are gold teeth on MTV with booty shakers.

We have to teach these high school seniors how to parent in order to try and turn this ship around. Otherwise, our society will continue down this slippery path.

By Janine

September 19, 2006 06:48 PM | Link to this

*JustMe and others As I said before , all of these problems seem so recent….or is it just that we are more aware now, or is this really a problem that has appeared in the last 20 years? The things that you all are mentioning never occurred me and my colleagues 25 years ago…and certainly not when people of my generation were in school. Of course, there have always been good students, goof offs, etc. But no one ever thought of Parenting classes, Parent centers as a solution. The child got the blame..not the parent.!!

By catlady

September 19, 2006 06:52 PM | Link to this

Teachers, who seem to be held to increasingly high standards (be sure kids are not absent, be sure kids are “successful”, make continual parent contact, deserve the accountablility to be a three-way street (family, child, school). At this point too many people who have power seem to think it is pretty much a one way road, with most everything dependent on the teacher. I really support holding the rest of the equation as accountable as I am. Some state was sending out parent report cards. Sounds good to me.

We have so many, many cases at our school where there needs to be an immediate report to DFCS, but there is not. Until someone steps up to that (hot) plate, many chances for improvement will continue to slip away. Meanwhile, we teachers are given the message that we are incompetent boobs who cannot/will not do what it takes to “make” the student successful.

I expect to have a visit from a mother tomorrow whose 4th grade daughter is “sick” every other day, who brings things to play with during class, or plays with her hair, and who today when she was making excuses for not having her agenda with her, decided to stick her tongue out at me. I am supposed to literally stand on my head to entertain/motivate/and make this child successful, but no one is addressing the other stuff getting in the child’s way. If you hear a loud “boom” from the north tomorrow, you know why!

Too many people put their personal “needs’ ahead of their children’s. And the school meekly accepts responsiblity to do it for them.

By Lisa B.

September 19, 2006 07:04 PM | Link to this

I agree with many of SET’s above comments, and am all for corporal punishment, expulsion, or whatever it takes to stop wasting time and money at the expense of regular kids to support a few bottom feeders who drag everyone else down. I am not talking about struggling kids, or those who can be saved with some extra attention. I am talking about the few socio-pathic criminals who destroy anyone or anything in their paths. Many of you may not realize that corporal punishment in schools is not illegal in Georgia. Some schools still allow teachers to paddle children, though most school systems have a policy against that. However, I am not sure if corporal punishment is effective with those truly bad kids. Whatever punishment schools apply probably pales in comparison to what those children have experienced at home. Public school teachers must educate all students who walk in the door. Mostly it works out, but occassionally is down-right frustrating.

Over the years, public education has gone through so many changes, I would never say anything will “NEVER” happen.

By Lisa B.

September 19, 2006 07:11 PM | Link to this

SET,

I just reread your above blog suggesting teachers be held responsible for student health issues. Are you kidding? I already spend a great deal of time telling kids to get rid of gum, taking candy, etc. Parents fill their children’s bookbags with junk, the kids are fat with rotten teeth, and somehow I am responsible??

I guess I can give up teaching subjects and spend all day searching book bags and confiscating junk food.

Sigh. Our principal goes balistic if we call the police about assaults. I can’t imagine being allowed to call the police about rotten teeth.

By KA

September 19, 2006 07:35 PM | Link to this

Janine, I know I have said that involved parents are more likely to have kids who have more success in school. For me involvement starts with the infant, talking and singing to your baby, then reading stories, teaching colors, shapes, textures, and names for things. As the toddler grows the involved parent teaches them letters and numbers, and they may start sight reading. The involved parent teaches the child safety rules, behavior rules, rules of polite social interaction, and how to resolve conflicts, etc. When the child of the involved parent goes to school he is ready to learn, ready to sit and listen and interact. The parent may go on and become involved with the activities at school through PTA, or just be responsive and watchful of progress reports. I look at involvement as a whole set of interactions that a parent has with a child. Some children do not have involved parents; they are not read to or sung to as infants, their caregivers don’t talk to them, but ignore them. They are not taught colors, numbers or letters. They are not taught how to behave out in public, so when they go to school it’s no wonder they don’t know how to sit and learn. Socially and academically they are already behind the children whose parents were involved with their early learning.

By catlady

September 19, 2006 07:36 PM | Link to this

Our literacy coach came to me the other day with a new form to fill out to track the interventions struggling students have had. Supposedly to make it easier to justify testing for sp ed. Things such as “Sept 15.Pulled Tommy to me for assistance on sounding out CVC words”. It must have been a bad day; all I could do was stare at her incredulously. When my voice came back, and the screaming in my head subsided, I asked her what instructional time I was to give up to do this list. Should I teach, or should I document? She started backing away and seemed to decide that she would ask some other intervention teacher to do it. We have to convince (and beg) our psychometrist to test students, after completing pages and pages of forms and meetings and work samples, and someone has decided we need MORE of this??!! How about this: “Ms. Suchandsuch, a veteran teacher with 25 years of experience in teaching reading, has noted Tommy’s continued lack of success (this is the fifth year) and hereby refers him for testing. She has tried every trick in her (considerable) arsenal, as have his other teachers.” Referal for evaluation complete.

Of course, our speech teacher won’t even evaluate a child unless their speech is unintelligible.

But I am supposed to insure their success—I am accountable?!

Now that I read over this, it’s kinda off topic, but I needed to say it anyway.

By C.R.H.

September 19, 2006 07:56 PM | Link to this

Speaking of junk food…my students always had a supply of chips, candy and cokes (from the vending machines) in my class. I would see these same kids sitting at their table eating the french fries and soft pretzels (some of which was paid for by the gov’t “free lunch” program). I always thought they had to get the hot lunch & not the junk lunch if they had free/reduced lunch??? Is it any wonder they felt like crap half the time?

By SET

September 19, 2006 08:03 PM | Link to this

Lisa - I’m sure not suggesting teachers be held responsible for student health…

As you probably know it’s a crime punishable by 6 months or so in county jail for a teacher in this state (and most others?) to fail to (phone) call the police or CPS followed by a written report within specified number of hours once that teacher is on notice the child is a victim of certain crimes.

So when a child appears before you in pain from a mouthful of discolored rotting teeth and gums - the teacher (not the principal) can get hooked and booked around here for not pulling the trigger on criminal child neglect. Ditto pregnant 13 year olds. Anybody threatening the teacher to attempt to block the police call can get arrested for witness intimidation. That is assuming your local child abuse units mean business and they do in this state (very politically correct!). Although the school district police will not enforce laws for school board political reasons the city police will and many secondary schools here now have regular contact with city police.

The (criminal law) duty to report is here, there is also civil liability when you don’t report and the abuse goes into overtime because you didn’t do you duty.

In light of this I wonder if any of the schools - primary schools anyway - haven’t done either in service training or some other screening system to systematically address problem cases. Requiring an annual physical and blocking attendance if acute needs are unmet would be one way to do so.

Anyway, by “health” I am referring to acute problems.

There is a certain bureaucracy to enroll a student in a school. Does that include proof of health coverage? Our state colleges in CA tend to require proof of health coverage to attend. Or you have to buy it from them. Are any such policies in effect in the primary and secondary schools?

As far as principal’s trying to stop teachers from calling 911 - CA is different in that we have stronger teacher unions, media and lots of lawsuits being filed. If a principal committed witness intimidation here he’d be up before a jury for a punitive damage award - no way to stop the teacher’s lawsuit. If the district did anything to support such behavior they’d be at counsel table individually beside him and they know it.

Once the teacher’s report is made the parent gets lot’s of “help” - usually court ordered. Criminal charges are not often filed but juvenile dependency proceedings are filed all the time. Juvenile Court can make the parents go to parenting class - see a social worker - have home inspections done, get drug tested, - etc, etc. If they don’t obey they can be jailed for contempt without a jury trial and/or the kid can be taken and given to other family (along with the welfare check and/or child support from parent’s wages). I see these families sitting on the long bench in front of that courtroom all the time. The systems seems to work and it’s probably more effective than the “glorious things”.

By KA

September 19, 2006 08:03 PM | Link to this

Janine, I would like to add that I think that parental attitude and expectations are part of being involved. A child wants to please his parents, and the parents’ positive attitudes and clearly voiced expectations greatly influence the child’s behavior and performance at home and school.

By Janine

September 19, 2006 08:03 PM | Link to this

KA As a teacher of many, many years, of course I know that all that you have said is true. And of course students who are fortunate enough to have the advantages you enumerate are indeed fortunate…..However, that is not the question that I was asking… my point is …there have always been kids who got the advantages and kids who did not…but….Blaming parents is a relatively new thing. Talking about Parenting classes,developing Parenting Centers, etc. is a relatively new thing. In the 50’s and 60’s the parents did not get the blame..they did their jobs and the kids did theirs [or didn’t ] ..the student was accountable…NOt the teacher, not the parent….but the student….My question is when did this change, why did it change, and is it a good change.??? And is there really anything we can do about the way adults choose to parent their children?

By Janine

September 19, 2006 08:05 PM | Link to this

My favorite child psychologist pointed out in his AJC column last week that Parenting , the verb,is a very new word. OUr grandparents would have know idea what it means.

By Janine

September 19, 2006 08:11 PM | Link to this

OOPS>..that would be “no idea” !!!

By KA

September 19, 2006 08:54 PM | Link to this

Janine, I graduated from HS in ‘70, and back then good parents whooped their kids for misbehaving, but bad parents didn’t care and let their kids run wild. And the rest of the community (my parents included) actually did talk about and blame the parents for the failure and wildness of their kids. Kids dropped out easily at 14 and legally at 16 and got a job, or not… Now NCLB forces the issue that every child graduate, and give failing students endless do overs until many are in school until they are 19 or 20! IMO the difference now is that NCLB, PC policies, and fear of lawsuits have changed the climate in schools from one of maintaining an ordered learning environment, to one of treating misbehaving and failing like a hot potato, passing the problem student among teachers, administrators and parents. Admins blame the teachers who blame the parents, and you are right, nobody blames the student. All parties are responsible, especially the student. It’s awful! Why can Catholic schools maintain ordered learning environments where many public schools fail? The answer is that they require parents to control their kids… Language is a living thing, and the word parenting is just a word encompasing loving, disciplining, and teaching your offspring.

By JustMe

September 20, 2006 08:12 AM | Link to this

Janine -

I agree. But, today’s parents don’t know how to parent. Instead, they are enablers of their child. Yes, the child SHOULD be held accountable, and primarily BY THE PARENT. This is part of parenting that is lacking and why I would suggest a parenting class.

Today, parents do not hold their child at fault. They fault the teacher, the administration, the bus driver, anyone and everyone else except their precious little child.

By jim d

September 20, 2006 08:33 AM | Link to this

Just me,

Finally something we can agree on.Provided it’s a generalization. Perhaps “some parents” or “many parents” would have been a bit better statement since some of us do hold our children accountable.

“Today, parents do not hold their child at fault. They fault the teacher, the administration, the bus driver, anyone and everyone else except their precious little child.”

By Janine

September 20, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this

just me and jimd..Do you think this [not holding children accountable ] has anything to do with “self esteem” movement ? In my day , self esteem was not in parents’ vocabularies. I have mentioned John Rosemond here before [his column usually appears on Saturdays in the AJC, but he also has a great website] seems to think that the “self esteem” thing had lots to do with many of today’s problems.

By IOC

September 20, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

I see it’s the same old conversation again LOL! I was over posting on the Manolo topic did you miss me KA? I would never go to a parenting seminar or help session but then never was told to. Kids are older now and never were raised with KA’s pollyanna attitudes. Funny they go to better colleges than hers and tuition free.

By SNY

September 20, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

Janine,

I think that this “self-esteem” movement has alot to do with the problems facing teachers today. Everyone wants to make sure that they don’t hurt little Johnny’s feelings. Forget the fact that little Johnny is the kid on the playground yelling and cursing and hittting. I’m so sick of this movement. I’ll be glad when it is over. A child should not need to be validated everyday. Grown people should not walk on eggshells because of one child or any child for that matter. If a child is ucking up, then someone should inform that child. Stop worrying about hurting them for later in life. If they don’t learn responisility now, won’t they still have prolems later in life? Life is hard and you have to work hard to stay ahead. If these kids don’t learn that at a young age, then where will their self-esteem be once they get older and it is their sole responsibility to take care of themselves. I would hope that my daughters’ teacher would correct her and hold her accountable for everything that is within her control and she is only in the 4th grade. I don’t go back up to the school when she forgets a book that she has homework in. She has to suffer the consequences for not being responsible. Is it hard on her now, maybe so but I’d rather be hard on her now rather than later.

By OldSchool

September 20, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

I think you’ll find that kids today have self-esteem out the wazoo. What they need is empathy and altruism. (I’ll let you look them up.)

I also believe that we can rant at each other about the dearth of parenting skills and the negative impact that has on school achievement but until we back off the ranting and propose viable solutions, we are simply “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

We may never change the here and now but we CAN change the future…even if it is only for a few children. We just need to start somewhere doing something.

By JustMe

September 20, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

Janine -

Good question! But I really do not have an answer. It could be a result of the self esteem movement, or maybe because parents are afraid of accusations of child abuse, or who knows.

By JustMe

September 20, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

OldSchool -

I agree. This is why I proposed a required senior course for all GA high schools in HOW to parent. The current students (seemingly most of them anyway) have obviously not grown up with appropriate roll models. We have to teach them how to parent, otherwise the cycle will start again.

KA -

It is not NCLB that requires do overs. It is bad administrators that force this inside of teachers classrooms. I refuse to allow do overs or re-takes.

By OldSchool

September 20, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

Just me, if you read my earlier post, I also proposed such a course but involved the children of these (and other) teen parents. Maybe it’s my vocational nature but real world experiences and hands on activities are so important for cementing the theory. Both the teen and the child benefit from a controlled educational setting and the close supervision of professionals.

By jim d

September 20, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this

Just me. Here’s where we differ on this one.

Require

Make it an elective and I’m with you.

By Janine

September 20, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

SNYCouldn’t agree more !

Self esteem is to be derived from achievement, not from just existing. Until that notion returns to parents and to the “village” raising the children, we are in for hard times!

By SET

September 20, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this

I can see a High School “parenting” course being very controversial. Both as state encroachment on family teaching and as state encouragement or approval of teenage childbearing. Cloaking the class as a “child development” class would probably help things. Early Child Development degreed 4 year (largely female) graduates are getting $50K a year and up as Nannies in Seattle WA (recent USA Today article).

By JustMe

September 20, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

If a parenting class is left to be optional or an elective, then the students most needing it would probably not be the ones taking it….. just as the parents that need help or assistance are the ones that don’t want any.

By jim d

September 21, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

Just me,

Here’s the problem——Separation of church and state.

All parents may not subscribe to your methods based on religious beliefs. So should we eliminate the first amendment?

I think not. But then that’s just my un-informed opinion

By Taxpayer

September 21, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this

I’m for preventing parenting in the first place, i.e., keeping kids from having kids or irresponsible adults from having kids. Parenting Resource Centers are great, but we probably ought to have more birth control resource centers.

By jim d

September 21, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this

Taxpayer,

You gotta be kiddin—Right?

You would abdicate your rights to decide when and how many children you could have to the government? Or are we just talking about giving up everyone elses rights?

By Taxpayer

September 22, 2006 08:09 AM | Link to this

Good grief, jim d.! How in the world did you get such a thing from my post? Do you understand how a resource center works? It’s a place to get free information and materials IF YOU WANT THEM — you know, VOLUNTARILY. I am advocating more access to free birth control information and birth control devices. I’d rather help prevent people from having kids they don’t want and will end up mistreating and raising poorly than to try to fix the parenting skills after the poor kid gets here.

I don’t advocate taking away anyone’s right to make choices about childbearing. I do wish, however, that people would exercise a bit more RESPONSIBILITY to go along with that right.

Of course, you can lead people to birth control, but you can’t make them use it, and I’m not advocating FORCING anyone to do anything.

By jim d

September 25, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

Taxpayer,

Sorry if I got confused but your first sentence threw me.

I’m for preventing parenting in the first place, i.e., keeping kids from having kids or irresponsible adults from having kids.