AJC.com > Blogs > Get Schooled > Archives > 2006 > September > 14 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USLying about Residency: A Felony
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Yowza, people, the Fayette school system has arrested a mother and a grandmother for lying about their residency so their children (and grandchildren) could attend Fayette County schools. Bridget Gutierrez reports here that they could be charged with “false swearing” on residency forms, a felony.
If convicted, the women could face jail time.
Is this harsh or justified?
Comments
By jim d
September 14, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this
All the more reason for CHOICE rather than attendance zones.
By jim d
September 14, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this
SIMPLE SOLUTION
CHOICE, let the money follow the kid and this becomes a non-issue.
By jim d
September 14, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this
Even money says Just me will have a problem with that post too :-)
By D'NEBON
September 14, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this
Good, plenty of parents lie on their forms, and more should be proecuted. You know you have an out of state kid when they don’t knwo their address, are told not to tell anyone their address, say that the address in the records is actually a realtives, or their parents picture them up everyday in car’s with out of county license plate.
By pdponder
September 14, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this
Excellent! I wish I had had the nuts to do it for my kid. I might try again next year. It’s worth going to jail for wouldn’t you say…Much worse things have been done to kids who were born on the wrong side of the tracks, and it was done to legally (there’s the real crime), just look at the HOPE.
We should form a club to raise bail for these two heros. Your not alone and hold your head up!
By Taxpayer
September 14, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this
The kids should be withdrawn and sent back to their county/district schools. Warn the mom and grandmom or give them probation, but no jail time. The kids will need them at home.
Fayette is right to make a big deal of this. I wish someone in DeKalb would take some action against such cheaters. Of course, DeKalb is also overrun with administrative transfers which are handed out like candy to anyone who makes a request. And since the money does not follow the kids, as jim d. suggests, then I am essentially paying outrageously high property taxes so that my neighborhood school can be overrun with kids whose parents pay taxes that are half of what I pay — if they pay property taxes at all!
Yeah, yeah, I know … it takes a village and all that. Someone will undoubtedly argue that some parents can’t afford to live in a good school district. But here’s a nasty truth: WE HAVE A DEKALB COUNTY COMMISSIONER WHO LIVES IN AN AREA WITH LOW PROPERTY TAXES BUT IS SENDING KIDS TO SCHOOL IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD, WHICH HAS RIDICULOUSLY HIGH PROPERTY TAXES!!!
Wow! I love getting doubly screwed — I overpay the commissioner AND pay for commissioner’s kids to enjoy the benefits of my and my neighbors’ taxes, years of volunteer work, and many hours at jobs just to afford to remain in this area.
By fk
September 14, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this
I don’t understand why some people think it’s okay to send their kids to a school to which they are not districted? What are they teaching their kids…that it’s okay to lie and cheat? If you want your child to attend a specific school district, then move there.
Schools are an integral part of the community they serve. They are built by the administration, teachers, staff, students and parents, all of whom have a vested interest in the community in which they are located. Why should parents who want to reap the benefits of a good education for their children be allowed to ship their kids to a school for which they, the parents, have not, are not, and will not, support?
I would not want to see the mother or grandmother should go to jail. However, they should repay the school system the full cost of the education they stole.
By Lisa B.
September 14, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this
What if we just sent all locally collected property taxes designated for schools to the Georgia Department of Ed. to be divided equally among all the students in the state. Let the money follow the kids. Then we wouldn’t need all these employees who work full time verifying students addresses. Of course, the rich school systems wouldn’t be as rich, but the poor school systems wouldn’t be so poor their kids cheat to get into other systems.
Sigh. Sounds kinda like communism. Take from the rich and give to the poor.
By Lisa B.
September 14, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this
I live in a rich school system, but teach in a poor school system. I must turn in all sorts of paperwork to verify that I live in the county where my son attends school. Parents go to many lengths to get their kids into the school system, including renting apartments. As far as I know, violators of the residence policy are simply kicked out of school. I haven’t heard of parents getting jail time.
By jim d
September 14, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this
Ok, So does anyone believe for a minute that Fayette County will be returning money to the state and fed. that they got for these kids? Isn’t it ironic that they waited until after the official head count on enrollment to bust these folks and start looking at others. Coincidence? I think not.
By jim d
September 14, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this
Gwinnett has tons of kids attending that live out of county and it’s quite legal. They are called “children of teachers”
By Patti Ghezzi
September 14, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this
I believe the “head count” for funding is in October.
Patti
By jim d
September 14, 2006 05:23 PM | Link to this
Patti,
Are you sure?
Seems at least one schools “official count for the school year” happened on 9/5
http://www.millcreekhighschool.org/index.php?page=principal
By SET
September 14, 2006 05:32 PM | Link to this
This is a familiar subject.
Counties are already prosecuting for Welfare Fraud. The Welfare Mothers sign the forms monthly without even reading them. When computer data mining reveals their lies - undeclared income usually, payoffs from personal injury cases, undisclosed moves, marriages, whatever - the women are hooked and booked for perjury (which in CA can only be a felony).
Is this any different than lying on your tax returns, lying on your DMV driver’s license & car registration forms (False statements about illnesses, names used, existance of out-of-state licenses and DUIs, amount paid for the used car, etc, etc.)
Actions have consequences. Getting thrown in jail for perjury is one of them.
Big to do about nothing.
The real fun comes when after having been convicted of perjury you try to sue someone or testify about anything else anywhere else again - and when you can’t get a state occupational license or lose your existing licenses, or can’t vacation in Canada or Great Britian (they check US criminal records & driving records by computer from the airplane passegner lists).
Too bad, so sad.
By jim d
September 14, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this
To bad Georgia law is so slack. We had a super. falsify state and federally mandated reports on violent incidents in one county system by more than 40,000 incidents.
AJC was on it’s toes and caught that one!
But He’s still super. knocking down a handsome 6 figure plus salary. Don’t ya just love it?
By Nja
September 14, 2006 05:44 PM | Link to this
Well, at least we know these parents actually care about their childs education. I know everyone is yelling TAXES, TAXES- but don’t these parents pay taxes somewhere? Should it be that you can only attend school where you pay your taxes? And yes Jim D - there are many school system employees- not just educators whose children attend out of district schools.
By jim d
September 14, 2006 05:47 PM | Link to this
NJA,
Well in counties the size of Gwinnett (no others in Ga.) where the school system is the largest employer that could add up to several dollars a year, wouldn’t you say?
By luvs2teach
September 14, 2006 05:48 PM | Link to this
I think we will start seeing a lot more of this because of NCLB - the “more desirable schools” are generally more desirable because they make AYP - and they have to take on additional students from county transfers.
So now you have schools with even more kids - it makes sense to make sure that those that are there are supposed to be there. As far as the punishment…well, I think it’s harsh, but I also think they are trying to send a message - a message which hasn’t been heard, or we wouldn’t be discussing this.
NCLB is effecting change in unforseen ways.
Jim d - I can only speak about my county, but we had several “official count days” the first couple weeks of school, but our FTE count is in October. We teachers are aware of this all important date because the CRCT test scores of students that arrive after are not held against the school. We had issues last year because so many of our Katrina kids came before that date - even though most of them hadn’t even been in school yet in LA/AL/MS and were very far behind, not to mention traumatized.
By Patti Ghezzi
September 14, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this
If I were sure, I wouldn’t have prefaced it with “I believe,” but I do know FTE counts are reported to the state in October and March, though that doesn’t mean there aren’t other counts along the way.
http://app.doe.k12.ga.us:80/ows-bin/owa/ftepackethnicsex.entry_form
Patti
By jim d
September 14, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this
Thanks Luv,
I was obviously confused by the term “official count” I should have known that since we’re dealing with a government entity there’d be more than one and won’t any of them be accurate.
I still say—let the money follow the kid.
BTW, we’re discussing this AGAIN because it’s a new school year. This happens every year.
By jim d
September 14, 2006 06:08 PM | Link to this
Intersting Patti,
Following the link you provided turned up this.
http://app.doe.k12.ga.us/ows-bin/owa/ftepackethnicsex.display_proc
Note the date on the bottom. Perhaps counts are done before the reporting deadline of October?
By jim d
September 14, 2006 06:16 PM | Link to this
Boy, looks like the GDOE office of technology needs to work on their links.
Anyway—go to october 4th FTE then click on districts and select Gwinnett.
Date at the bottom of page is September?
By Patti Ghezzi
September 14, 2006 06:19 PM | Link to this
That link led me to “file not found.” I’m not professing to be an expert on FTE. I just know that counts occur in October and March, and those figures are reported to the state.
The original question was whether Fayette schools delayed kicking these kids out until they could get the money on them, and I’m saying I doubt it.
By jim d
September 14, 2006 06:22 PM | Link to this
It would be interesting to find out.
By JustMe
September 15, 2006 08:16 AM | Link to this
jim d -
You are correct! I do indeed disagree with you.
Saying that the solution to parents breaking the law and lying to send their kids to out of district schools is providing school choice is like saying the solution to drivers running red lights is to remove all traffic lights.
There is a reason why we have school districts. And, there is a reason why we have truency laws.
By the way, I have freely shared that my profession is education. So, what is your current occupation? You claim to know so much about what happens in the classroom and so much about education in general, it would be great if you shared your occupation and your training with us all.
Thanks.
By Jack
September 15, 2006 08:27 AM | Link to this
I think there is some confusion over official counts. The FTE count is the biggie that affects money and such. The other count done at the beginning of the school year is more of a local thing. If a student has not come to school in the first ten days they can be dropped off the roles on the assumption that they are not coming. It also lets school systems move teachers around if necessary to meet demand.
By V for Vendetta
September 15, 2006 09:11 AM | Link to this
Simple answer: YES Fayette was right in doing this, but NO they do not deserve jail time.
Jim, I see what you are saying. It is something we have been discussing in my grad school class — how to fix the system. The problem however, is that the system is what it is, and taking your child to school outside of your district violates the law. It is my belief that if you put your kids above everything else in your life (as you should), then you will find a way to make sure they have the best education they can possibly have based on the current system.
If it was my child, and I lived in Dekalb or Clayton, I would work however many jobs I had to in order to pay for private school, or pay for us to move. If it came right down to it, I would rather live in an apartment somewhere close to a good school in Gwinnett or Cobb and know my child was receiving a good education, rather than find some sort of secretive way to ship them into those counties under false pretense.
Sure, people will say we break laws every single day (speeding, j-walking, etc.), but that is a pathetic excuse. Also, most of the kids that come to school out of district are losers, criminals, or kids who were flat out kicked out of their home county. I know, I know, there are a few kids who are in search of a better education, but you will have a hard time convincing a teacher on the front lines of that. All I see is problems coming into our district. The sad thing is, my school doesn’t even seem to care. And like I always say…
I teach at one of the “good” schools!
By scv
September 15, 2006 09:24 AM | Link to this
About two weeks ago, the NYT did a story on this same thing concerning some school districts in Westchester Co, NY and Greenwich, CT. Those areas spend about $14-15k a year per student (and have crazy high property taxes) but the schools are top notch. Most of the districts highlighted have a fulltime private detective on staff to verify residency for questionable students.
I think jail time is indeed harsh. I go back and forth on this issue in that the law is the law and blatantly breaking it is a nono. Though from a fairness standpoint, why should my taxes funding $7k per student where I live slate me for a school with no airconditioning in half the facilities, underperforming test scores, less disciplined students, a more disruptive environment, and fewer academic offerings when someone 7 miles away with $7k per student has a gleaming facility, stocked library, orderly classes, spanish in kindergarten, etc? Oprah this year had a show where they had some kids from a suburban public school swap with an inner city Chicago one. When an inner city kid marveled at the gym facilities of the nice school, the suburban student host genuinely commented (“What, your school doesn’t have a cardio room?) Sorry, off topic.
A lot of it comes down to parent involvement and those schools with more of it fight to make sure options exist. I think the “let the money follow the student” suggested about could be very complicated (there’s not room for every child who wants to go to Morris Brandon to have a space) but the arguments for it are very reasonable. At least Charlotte is trying theme schools across the city where students have a choice plan…focuses on IB, art, leadership, language immersion, montessori…options.
By KA
September 15, 2006 09:31 AM | Link to this
If these women are charged with falsely swearing and are judged guilty of a felony, then maybe that will get the attention of other school district cheaters or those thinking about cheating. This is just lying and stealing. We had this discussion many blogs ago. If parents want the best for their children, then they will not lie to get them in a school out of their district. If you lie to get something you didn’t earn or pay for, then your children will see nothing wrong with lying to get what they want.
By jim d
September 15, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this
Does anyone have a definitive answer?
Since FTE reports are due in October when do the schools actually conduct that count? Is it done in September, giving them 30 days to compile the data and send it to the state?
Just me & V,
Reading for comprehension 101; I never advocated breaking the law. I did however advocate changing the law. For a long time now, I have been pro school choice. I really don’t see myself changing my opinon on that issue. Were we already doing this the case would be moot. I firmly believe that choice would keep good schools full and force poor schools to improve not to mention create a plethora of new, innovative schools.
By V for Vendetta
September 15, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this
I know, I know Jim, you’ve always been an advocate for choice. And I agree with you in the sense that we need a sweeping change in our education system. That much I think we can all agree on!
By KA
September 15, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this
jim d, You advocate for school choice, but across county lines, and between school systems? How could a system plan for growth if they had to accept an unlimited number from other counties and school systems? Even if the school tax money followed the student to the new shcool, there are still issues of roads and utilities that counties must build and maintain that support the schools and that county residents pay for.
By jim d
September 15, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this
Karen,
Lottery.
Planning for growth based on how large you want to become and how well you do the job, a good indicator may be the number of applicants every year.
ROAD IMPROVEMENTS??? LOL, you gotta be kidding. At last recolection you were in Gwinnett and they never build roads till things have gotten out of hand. That wouldn’t change.
By KA
September 15, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this
jim d, So you advocate a fully open school choice plan, allowing transfers district to district, county to county? Would regional restrictions be in place? Like you can’t transfer more than one ore two counties away? And how would student transportation be handled for the county to county transfers? Really, you can’t believe that this is a workable solution.
By Patti Ghezzi
September 15, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this
The Georgia Department of Education responded to my query about FTE counts with this:
“It’s done during the weeks that includes first Tuesday in October. This year, the FTE count includes Oct. 3-6. There are also dates for re-transmission and correction of data (if there are duplicate Student ID numbers and the like).”
By KA
September 15, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this
jim, Everywhere I go in Gwinnett, there is road paving and improving, widening, and turn lanes, especially in my neck of the woods.
By KA
September 15, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this
jim, Do you think that Lottery proceeds could/should fund all of the state’s schools?
By jim d
September 15, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this
Thanks for clearing that up Patti.
By jim d
September 15, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this
KA.
So you advocate a fully open school choice plan, allowing transfers district to district, county to county?
Yes
Would regional restrictions be in place? Like you can’t transfer more than one ore two counties away?
Ideally Not, but it could be something to be brought to the table. The point is that in recent survey’s the majority of people are very pleased with their local schools, even those labeled as needing improvement so I doubt you’d see that large an exodus.
And how would student transportation be handled for the county to county transfers?
Many options available here, the least of which would be providing own transportation
Really, you can’t believe that this is a workable solution.
Indeed I do. Among the many other benefits of choice is one rarily looked upon favorably, but nonetheless one that would help a lot of kids The creation of for profit schools with innovative teaching methods and curiculums to entice enrollment.
By KA
September 15, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this
jim, You said, “in recent survey’s the majority of people are very pleased with their local schools, even those labeled as needing improvement so I doubt you’d see that large an exodus.’ So, why do we need school choice?
By Ernest
September 15, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this
JimD, FWIW I believe DeKalb schools are taking an official count today. Also, given your advocacy for School Choice, let me suggest you follow efforts in our school system. Our superintendent is recommending restructuring our school system into 6 geographical regions and providing a menu of choice options for possibly implementation. Design Teams consisting of various stakeholders are aligned with each region and will make recommendations accordingly. This sounds like an opportunity you would enjoy! :)
By jim d
September 15, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this
KA,
Road improvements in Gwinnett? A day late and a dollar short. I know you’ve driven Gravel Springs road recently. That project should have been paid for by developers and completed before the MOG ever opened. How about Hwy 124 all the way up to MC? Think they’ll eventually get around to that? Oh yeah, and when they going to start on 124 from 324 back into L’ville? I’m giving odds the new middle and high school at Lena Carter and 124 and Lena Carter and Sunnyhill will be opened before they ever start.
By jim d
September 15, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this
KA,
For those of us that know better!
By jim d
September 15, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this
Seriously Karen,
School choice should just be another tool to improve education. If local schools faced losing funding because students were bailing out, they would be forced to improve or close their doors.
By KA
September 15, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this
We don’t need some helter skelter enrollment patchwork of kids attending schools out of their neighborhoods, towns and counties. We do need top down change in education, and here are my suggestions:
(1) Restore local school control to principals and local class control to teachers. Discipline, student accountability and responsibility should be enforced. Let teachers teach, cut out most of the useless administrative paperwork, and HIRE non teacher lunchroom and bus monitors and sports coaches.
(2) School admins should only concern themselves with building and staffing and transportation and cafeterias.
(3) Start reading and math bootcamp classes in every school where there are students performing below grade level.
By jim d
September 15, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this
Thanks Ernest,
I’ll be watching — QQ
By KA
September 15, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this
jim, Yes,Gwinnett is crowded, and even where they built bigger roads first, those are just as crowded. I pick my day, time and back road route to avoid congestion when and where I can. A county map is my friend.
By jim d
September 15, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this
I fear what you advocate is merely a band aid on a gapping wound.It fails to address the one thing that would improve education beyond your wildest dreams. Providing students with a desire to be in the school they attend
By JustMe
September 15, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this
jim d
Still waiting on your answers from my last post…. Are you afraid to answer? Why would you not respond to that post when you so quickly respond to other posts?
By JustMe
September 15, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this
jim d,
Your last post continues to advocate school choice using a justification with which you have absolutely no proof or evidence. How very much like you!
Here is some proof…. students chose what college they attend, right? Are you saying that all college students pass because it is their choice? I certainly hope not!! I don’t know of any college where 100% of accepted students pass all classes!
Your continual beating of the “choice” drum wears very thin when all you have is your opinion.
KA
I like your suggestions, but why stop with math and reading? There should also be science bootcamps and social studies bootcamps. Don’t forget to cover all academic areas!!!
By jim d
September 15, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this
NO FEAR—But NO REASON either. Hope you’re not holding your breath. I just don’t need your approval.
By KA
September 15, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this
jim, While I do not see how out of county school choice is at all practical, I do think that in-county plans such as the one Ernest posted about are feasible and managable. this is what i have learned from teacher complaints in Get Schooled blogs over the past year: they must spend too much time away from teaching doing extra duties like monitoring in the cafeteria and bus in after school time in admin meetings and piles of admin paperwork every day. They cannot enforce discipline in their own classes and if they turn over the student to admins for discipline, then they get chastised for failing to control their class. D*mned if you do and if you don’t. Their principals are often middle managers with no control themselves, just a strict policy and rule book to enforce. What I advocate is to restore the control, restore the teaching time, and eliminate the administrative nonsense. I think it is a band-aid worth trying. If you don’t change the system, and students are allowed the choice to flee from a failing school, then how do you fix that failing school so students will return? Don’t we need fundamental change in how schools are run so that all can succeed?
By T-Man
September 15, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this
School choice is the better way to go if education is to improve in this nation. It will force the schools to be better in what they have to offer. It would force schools to compete for students or close. When competing the main focal point would be high acheiving grade point averages. Is that not what we are looking for. But remember it would also force schools to expell those that do not acheive high grades.
With that said until we have that system in place and working, the parents that lie on the forms should be prosecuted and put in jail. Buy the home in the area you want your kids to go to school in. Quit living off others to cheat the system.
By luvs2teach
September 15, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this
great thread so far…
jim d and KA - In the book Freakonomics, there was a section about research on schools in Chicago that offered a lottery system for choice.
What the authors found was that people were happy when given a chance to choose - even if they didn’y get another school.
Interesting, eh?
And I have read that most people are happier with their home school, and perceive problems as happening elsewhere.
Also interesting.
Even with AYP choice, transportation is only provided for Title I schools - non-title one schools require the parents to transport the kids.
Most private schools require parents to transport kids, too.
I can’t see free choice working, but I do think some sort of lottery might work.
It’s a very complex system, and to completely overhaul it will take time and careful planning.
Who do you trust to do that?
By KA
September 15, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this
JustMe, I chose reading and math specifically becuase they form the basis for most all other learning. If a studnet cannot read on grade level he will not be able to perform in the other subject areas including the reading in social studies and math. Ditto for the math needed on grade level to succeed in science and social studies. What I propose is just a starting point, to pull out the kids who are seriously lagging, and who probably are poor readers. I am not a certified teacher and not an education expert, but I have worked with illiterates and poor readers, and I know that poor reading and math skills are directly linked to the lack of success in school.
By KA
September 15, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this
fk said it best yesterday at 4:09 pm: “Schools are an integral part of the community they serve. They are built by the administration, teachers, staff, students and parents, all of whom have a vested interest in the community in which they are located. Why should parents who want to reap the benefits of a good education for their children be allowed to ship their kids to a school for which they, the parents, have not, are not, and will not, support?” We’ve said it many times here that failing schools often fail because their students have parents that have failed to parent. We need special programs in these areas to encourage the slacker parents and to teach these students about success in their own community, not someone else’s.
By KA
September 15, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this
fk said it best yesterday at 4:09 pm: “Schools are an integral part of the community they serve. They are built by the administration, teachers, staff, students and parents, all of whom have a vested interest in the community in which they are located. Why should parents who want to reap the benefits of a good education for their children be allowed to ship their kids to a school for which they, the parents, have not, are not, and will not, support?” We’ve said it many times here that failing schools often fail because their students have parents that have failed to parent. We need special programs in these areas to encourage the slacker parents and to teach these students about success in their own community, not someone else’s.
By KA
September 15, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this
fk said it best yesterday at 4:09 pm: “Schools are an integral part of the community they serve. They are built by the administration, teachers, staff, students and parents, all of whom have a vested interest in the community in which they are located. Why should parents who want to reap the benefits of a good education for their children be allowed to ship their kids to a school for which they, the parents, have not, are not, and will not, support?” Parents are often the problem for a failing school, not the school or the students. So let’s put programs in place to educate the slacker parents and teach their kids how to successfully learn.
By KA
September 15, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this
luvs2teach, Yes, I read Freakonomics, too. Choice is something we should realize and value in all areas of life, but often don’t use, because it’s easier to stay where we are, doing what we are doing. Choice involves risk. Many people do not even realize that their own choices determine their fate. luvs, What do you think is the solution for failing schools?
By KA
September 15, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this
YIKES! Sorry for the multiple posts, I kept getting a failed connection message.
By Ernest
September 15, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this
Patti, based on the recent posts to this blog, I think it is time for another blog dedicated to discussing school choice options along with implementation suggestions. What’s being discussed for DeKalb is exciting and scary at the same time. We do know that doing nothing will not allow us to move forward.
By jim d
September 15, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this
Just me,
To lazy to do a bit of research yourself? I do believe the only thing you fear may be your loss of despotism.
Get over it!
http://oldfraser.lexi.net/publications/criticalissues/1999/schoolchoice/section_05.html
By jsmom
September 15, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this
We are currently districted to the worst ES in Cobb County. There is no way my kid is going there, I will do what ever I have to do so that my child does not have to go there. None of the ES aged kids in our neighborhood go there, they have all opted for the transfer schools. I will do what I have to do so that my child does not go to our districted ES…. but lie about where I live? Please, I am not organized enough to keep that straight! Thank God for the Charter Schools to be opened in Smyrna and Mableton!
By scv
September 15, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this
jsmom…the Smyrna & Mableton charter school development should be very interesting to watch. We live in Smyrna, and though it has its issues, our ES seems to be relatively well run and fairly successful. I am curious what will happen when the charter schools open. Will that take all of the “better” students out of our ES and change the environment? not sure. But it seems from comments around town that many people are just assuming their kid will go to one of the charter schools, but I see no way there is not going to be a lottery for admission. The interest is overwhelming and there can’t be enough spots for everyone.
By EducatorX3
September 15, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this
Jim d…Patti is correct about the FTE counts. If you look at the report on the DOE website, you will notice that the date posted is September but it is for FY ‘06 - that is the last school year. We are currently operating in FY ‘07. So those are figures for Gwinnett County from the March FTE count. The “official counts” that have been posted in newspapers are just the enrollment numbers. The FTE count has to include the number of students present on the target date (October 10), how many of those students received special services (gifted, sped, speech, etc), how many segments of special services were received (the number of students served X the number of segments taught). This count determines funding for the schools. The school year is started based on counts from the previous year. Mid-term adjustments come in December/January based on the October count.
By jim d
September 15, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this
Luv,
Who do I trust to do that?
PARENTS. How about you?
By luvs2teach
September 15, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this
Jim d - I don’t trust parents alone - why? Because we all have different political views and values and what I want for my child may not be in the best interest for your child, in your point of view.
I do think parents should have a voice, but I also think community members who don’t have kids in a school deserve a voice, too, because their home values still will depend on the strength of a school - even with some choice.
By JustMe
September 15, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this
jim d
Yes, you are afraid. Post your occupation! Post your credentials! I am sure that we are all curious about the oh, so, righteous becomes knowledgable about the goings-on in the classroom and about the education profession.
You do not because then you will be discredited and shown to be the true false “expert”.
Hmmm. I wonder if I post that the moon is made of cheese enough then everyone will believe it?
By luvs2teach
September 15, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this
jim d - I forgot - teachers should have a voice, too (I’m sure you don’t agree), but since we have to work in the schools, it might be nice to have some sort of say.
A few years ago (I think it was due to HB 1187, which got lost in the NCLB madness), schools started having commitees made of teachers, parents, admin, and business members. I thought that was a good idea - everyone who has a vested interest.
I’ve mentioned this school before, Brown Barge Middle School in FL. It is innovative and exciting, and they teachers work as a team for the directionof the school - the students get to choose trakcs every 12 weeks, and they spend all their academic classes applying the skills to developing the knowledge of their track subject. Teachers can do something right. And, on the idea of choice, sometimes choice within the school can be a powerful motivator as well.
Have a great weekend, y’all - I am outta he-ah!
By C.R.H.
September 15, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this
We already have “school choice”. If you want your kid to go to a certain school, make sure you buy a house or rent in that school zone. Simple solution. But to address the alternative Jim D. is proposing…do the schools get a “choice” in who is allowed to come in or do you believe the school should just accept any student who shows up at the door? The proposal for school choice has a lot more problems with it then you might think…transportation is actually the least of those problems. If you actually worked in a school you would know that the type of “school choice” you seem to be advocating will never work.
By JustMe
September 15, 2006 07:00 PM | Link to this
C.R.H.
Good luck getting any thing from jim d regarding his credentials. All he wants to do is toot his own opinions and he likely has never worked one day in a school. He has no clue what the real challenges are in todays school environment and yet he trys to come off as some expert.
I very much like your idea about schools not having to accept individual students. As a public school teacher, I am sick of dealing with kids that simply do not want to be here and so they make me miserable, the students that want to learn miserable, and do their best to disrupt the learning process. Why do we allow this?
By jim d
September 18, 2006 08:19 AM | Link to this
Sorry folks, family emergency required me to depart rather suddenly Friday. I would however like to address a few previous posts.
Just me,
Ok, I’m busted! I am afraid.
What I fear is people that once they can no longer discuss the merits of an issue feel it necessary to attempt to discredit those with differing views who can document the basis for their opinions. You asked for evidence that school choice can work. I provided you with 150+ year evidence that you still refuse to accept. People like you, sir, are what I fear. People that prefer to remain in their narrow-minded comfort zone rather than face reality, and insist on propagating mis-truths that would keep our children cloaked in the darkness of ignorance.
You sir —— are what I fear.
L2T,
Rather than just having a say, how about having students that are anxious to learn? Smaller class sizes? And parents that are involved? As well as being given greater autonomy?
This is what must happen in this country for public education to survive. Teachers like some of you posting here that truly have the best interest of students at heart can become the catalysts for meaningful change.
Here’s a BBC article that you may find of interest.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3086421.stm
CRH,
What a shame that so many educators in this country appear to have been conditioned to oppose change. Read the link above. You may find a few features of school choice that you find appealing. Little things that get discussed on these blogs daily like class size, discipline and parental involvement. School choice enables both parents and educators. Not bad things in my opinion.
Hagd my friends—-oh and you too just me.
By hs sped
September 18, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this
jim-I both live and work in Fayette County. I could have bought in Pike, Spalding, Coweta, or Meriwether Counties for a lot less and STILL have put my kids in Fayette schools because I’m an employee. However, I want my kids to go to school with our neighbors: the kids we go to church with, play ball with, go to Scouts with and see at the grocery store. I want that small town atmosphere. I know the parents of my students and I’m firends with the parents of my children’s friends. I think that will go away if parents are allowed to choose any school they want. I don’t want it to go away. I pay the higher price (and consequently make sacrifices in other areas) because it’s worth it to me. Therefore, I’m against school choice.
By MMM
September 18, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this
Jim d
You go! You and I may have split hairs on some other topics, but you are right on with this one. And I would never question your commitment to improving public education even where we differ.
The earlier poster who seemed to feel that in order for your opinion to have merit you must display a resume indicating educational indoctination does not deserve a reply.
Ever heard of the lemmings? When everyone on the “outside” feels differently then the “insiders” someone is out of touch with reality.
By luvs2teach
September 18, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this
Jimd - thanks - great article, and not too far off from things I’ve talked about before (particularly age 7 as being a key age).
One thing we forget though, when we look at other countries, is that we had a unique mission due to the heterogenous nature of American culture.
Here’s one for you:
Brown Barge Middle School
By jim d
September 18, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this
Sped,
I think you may hold the misconception that choice and attendance zone public schools could not co-exist.
They actually can and have for a very long time in several Scandinavian countries with a great deal of success. What you must keep in mind is that choice would afford everyone else the same choices that you currently enjoy and most people would choose as you have.
School choice is not inherently bad and it would have little affect on public schools as evidenced by only about 13% of students in these countries bothering to chose a non-municipal school. As strange as it may seem, isn’t that roughly the percentage of struggling students that currently attend our schools? I don’t think that public education is all that bad here, merely that we must allow those that would benefit from escaping an opportunity to do so. Choice would afford them this opportunity.
By jim d
September 18, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this
Thanks L2T,
I’ve actually visited that site in the past. As I recall they were also doing something a bit different in their School Council By-laws that I found of interest. I’m not sure but they may have been one of the schools that had students setting on the school council with adults. I’ll see if I can find it in my paperwork.
By jim d
September 18, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this
L2T,
Nope that wasn’t it!
I was watching the environemtal issues at this school.
Agrico Chemical Company and other companies manufactured fertilizer on this property from 1889 to1975 using sulfuric acid produced on the site.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/HAC/PHA/BrownBargeMS080204HC-FL/BrownBargeMS080204HC-FL.pdf#search=%22Brown-Barge%20Middle%20School%2C%22
By jim d
September 18, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this
Correction; it wasn’t the school site but a peice of property across the street that had parents concerned about contaminants on the school property. I was watching how the school system handled it and comparing it to the do nothing actions Gwinnett was offering parents concerned about the construction of Sycamore in Buford between two landfills.
By JustMe
September 18, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this
jim d
I still do not understand why you refuse to share your expertise in the field of education. It seems that you are what I fear - someone that claims to have the solutions but has no experience/coursework to even understand the problem!
Do you go to the doctor with an illness and tell him to give you a specific prescription because you already know what’s wrong? I doubt it. Even if you do, I doubt that the Doctor would listen to your dianosis and come to his own conclusion. Why? Because he has the training and experience!
Everyone thinks that they are experts in education - and that is what has screwed us up in GA! The politicans and not the professional educators have made the decisions for so long, it has messed us up. How about we actually listen to the professionals for a change? Listen to the classroom teacher when they cry for help in certain areas (crowded classes, etc.) - why else would they be asking for help?
I have never said that choice is not an answer. I have said that choice is not THE answer. The link you provided is about Denmark - not exactly a good comparison for the US in many ways! School choice may be incorporated as part of an approach that may be used.
However, you speak of it as if it is a cure all. And, I am afraid, that you do not know the real illness in order for you to state the cure.
By jim d
September 18, 2006 03:19 PM | Link to this
Thats because many “professional educators” aren’t capable of making a decision.
Now, know anyone that can fix their own car, repair electrical problems, repair their plumbing or even write a book that hasn’t recieved formal training in that particular discipline?
Education’s no different my friend.
By C.R.H.
September 18, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this
Jim D. Your arrogance astounds me. I used to be a classroom teacher, I decided after nearly a decade of banging my head against a wall and having to listen to people like you that I would be better off in another line of work. I nearly tripled my salary and am enjoying the benefits of my new job. One of these benefits is not having to listen to someone who really has no idea, training or experience spouting off about how I should be doing my job. I know many people who can “fix a car” as long as it isn’t one of the newer models that require expensive equipment and many months/years of training just to diagnose a problem. I also can re-wire a light switch (of course I fixed medical equipment in the army and had 10 months of electrical training) but could I re-wire an entire house…don’t think so. Anyone can write a book, don’t forget there are editors and other folks proofing the work to make sure it works out. Regardless, your examples are poor…apples and oranges Jim.
By JustMe
September 18, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this
jim d
I am almost 100% certain that there are no real authors of books that have no experience, no formal education, and no informal education in that area. Why would a publisher publish a book such as that? Why would anyone buy a book such as that?
Who would attempt to repair a car without first reading up on it, or being trained/tutored by a friend that is a mechanic (informal training), or tinkering around with a car first (informal training), or taking a mechanic class (formal training)?
Who would mess around with electricity without any prior knowledge or experience with it?
Again, you steer off topic and refuse to describe your credentials - what is your experience in a classroom (or is it only as a high school student?), what is your course work in education, what is your career? Please enlighten us. Or, do you place yourself with those mindless politicans that know nothing of education and yet always claim to have the answer?
Finally, since you seem to love to border on insults, I am a professional educator and I would be happy to sit side by side with you and discuss most any topic. I made successful decisions in the corporate world as a director of a Fortune 500 company before I changed professions, and I am certain that I can make successful decisions as a professional educator. And, I believe that my decisions would be considered much more viable and successful compared to yours in the field of education.
By jim d
September 18, 2006 05:36 PM | Link to this
I’m impressed.
But you’d be 100% wrong, anyone with fair talent, a great deal of determination and perseverance, and some luck, can become a publishable writer.
Tamora Pierce,comes to mind and I dare say the most published book in history authors ever dreamed of being published. (the Bible)
None the less, the point is that one need not be an educator to understand education.
Education = knowledge gained by being indoctrinated as to all the methods and rules pertaining to a subject.
Wisdom = knowledge gained because one is willing to attempt something different and doesn’t realize there are rules, therby discovering a better method.
I think I chose wise over educated.
By MMM
September 18, 2006 05:57 PM | Link to this
The posters who seem to feel that Jim D. can’t have an opinion unless he has had the same “training” they have forget that sometimes “training” and “indoctrination” to a set of expectations and values often go hand in hand.
It is often the case that workers who have acclimatized to a certain way of doing things are often harder to retrain and slower to appreciate changes in the wider world than someone who is new, an outsider, or trained in a different set of approaches to problem solving.
Why does the new start-up company often overtake the giant one?
But “public” education is a monopoly in the hands of those “experts” that have done a brillant job the last 50 years of making the educational system in Georgia and the US the envy of the World. (sarcasm)
I guess parents like me need to just shut up until all our technical jobs are outsourced to India and China. Sorry, they are my children. My views matter. I can vote. I pay taxes. I deserve better than to be told my only choice is to accept what is offered or leave the “system”. I want the system to work.
By JustMe
September 18, 2006 06:02 PM | Link to this
Wow jim d!
We at least know you can use a dictionary and you can search on the internet. However, no one knows what kind of expertise you have in education.
Although…. where did you get that “definition” of wisedom and education? Those are not any like any definitions that I have seen. Please share!
However, I doubt that you will. You seem to make stuff up as you go along, pretending to be some sort of expert and then after-the-fact trying to search on the internet for anything to support your opinions. Thanks for your contributions!
You love to mince words - no one with tons of determination and perserverance can publish a book in an area that they know nothing about! Unless, of course, their determination and perserverance leads to education - informal or formal - in which case that would destroy your example. You simply cannot admit that you are a poser. You prefer to dig your hole deeper and deeper. LOL!!!!!
By C.R.H.
September 18, 2006 06:02 PM | Link to this
Wisdom by definition includes knowledge gained by experience and training. Nice play on words. However, you still have no realistic grasp of the REAL issues affecting education today. I do applaud your interest in the subject and you willingness to debate the subject. Back to the topic…school choice is already available. Putting your kids into a school they have no legal right to attend is against the law. Lock ‘em up and let the taxpayers of Fayette get what they pay for.
By MMM
September 18, 2006 06:03 PM | Link to this
Wisdom is something that most people cannot articulate, but that upon hearing is recognized by others as being true.
The others must be willing to listen, which is the first step in aquiring wisdom.
By C.R.H.
September 18, 2006 06:28 PM | Link to this
Listening…yeah right! When the hell was the last time anyone listened to what the teachers have been saying for years? The fact is noone wants to hear the truth, so teachers (like me) continue to leave the profession in droves. As far as parents having some insight…if parents would just do their damn job there wouldn’t be nearly the problems in education (and society) that are going on today. Clueless!
By MMM
September 18, 2006 06:34 PM | Link to this
So what “choice” did this Clayton county parent have within her district? Has anyone looked at how screwed up this district has been. I know that they won’t approve any charter school that wasn’t their idea. I don’t know of any magnet program. Their accreditation has been in question, the test scores have plumeted. There has been lots of stuff in the paper about gangs and violence.
Would someone familiar with Clayton county schools care to comment on C.H.R’s assertion that choice was already available? Then let’s talk about whether NCLB administrative transfers are really “choice” or just a distinction without a difference.
Now I’m not saying she should have broken the law, I’m saying she shouldn’t have had to to get something acceptable.
By MMM
September 18, 2006 06:46 PM | Link to this
When Roy Barnes was voted out of office for trying to deny unlimited job security for teachers, Perdue certainly listened.
That’s why Georgia teachers are the best payed in the Southeast and got a $100 “gift/bribe” card this summer.
Yes, many parents do a poor job. And many of the resulting children are unteachable. Parents and children also need to be accountable for their behavior.
But that mom who cheated cared. It isn’t right, but that kind of disperation is tragic—can’t you see that?
By C.R.H.
September 18, 2006 06:46 PM | Link to this
I am familiar with Clayton county, as well as several other school districts. The problem stems from home…nothing happens in a vacuum. Do you think the violence, gangs, drugs, etc…happen as soon as these kids get off the bus and while at home they are perfect little angels? The teachers are leaving Clayton (and other schools) because there is NO SUPPORT! The choice these parents had is to move to a location where they could put their kids in a different school, stick them in private schools or home school them. Or the real choice is to advocate for your child and make sure you (the parent) and the student are doing their job. There are some great teachers in Clayton county, and they would be even better if the students/parents pulled their heads out of their backsides and started doing their jobs.
By Sharon Miller
September 19, 2006 08:21 AM | Link to this
How many lies did the superintendent tell to get his position? what happened to no child left behind? leave mom and grandma alone bullie
By KA
September 19, 2006 08:28 AM | Link to this
CRH and MMM, You are making great points, and my point that school choice is not going to fix the problems in the schools that kids transfer out of. Do we need parent education programs to get them on track so that their kids know how to go to school and work and have a chance for success? Teachers cannot do it alone. Parents need to be teaching and reinforcing good behavior, attendance and work in their kids.
By KA
September 19, 2006 08:31 AM | Link to this
Sharon, Are you a parent in Clayton County? What do you think should be done to improve the schools? Shouldn’t NCLB begin at home?
By jim d
September 19, 2006 08:48 AM | Link to this
Just me,
It has quickly become quite obvious as to why you aren’t still directing a Fortune 500 company and have turned to education as a means of making a living.
Fortune 500 companies must listen to consumers, changing to meet their needs, in order to survive.
Bet their stock went up when you left.
CRH,
Arrogance? Perhaps, but I prefer to think of it as confidence. The only “issue in education” today is nothing more than it is failing to meet the needs of the consumer. Thats not too dificult to understand.
By KA
September 19, 2006 08:54 AM | Link to this
Jim, Give it a rest!
By jim d
September 19, 2006 08:57 AM | Link to this
KA,
Is the glass half full or half empty?
You assume that only the brightest would leave were they offered a choice. Yet in areas where choice is an option it would appear that’s not the case, to the contrary it appears to be those students that our traditional public schools are failing to serve that are opting for alternative schools.
Is there a particular reason you’d condemn these kids to an education that is not reaching them just because they live on the wrong side of the tracks?
By KA
September 19, 2006 09:17 AM | Link to this
Jim, The glass is always half full in my hopeful world (kumbaya anyone?) Your assumptions about what I think are dead wrong. I am not condemning any kids. I said before that some school choice programs may work within a school system, like the one proposed in Dekalb. At issue in this thread was defection across the county line, to another system movement, because it appears that the whole county school system is failing. I want to know why the kids, high or low performing, leave a failing school, and how do you fix the failing school? I believe in the importance of a neighborhood based, community oriented school, one that parents and students have a stake in. Let’s talk about fixing the failing school, so that people in the community don’t have to leave. Administration may need to be overhauled or eliminated, and the solution may include educating parents so that they can help their kids succeed.
By MMM
September 19, 2006 09:20 AM | Link to this
CRH—-so let me rephrase the “Choices” you say are available to the clayton mom. 1. Have enough MONEY to move to a “better” neighborhood. 2. Have enough MONEY to make ends meet while spending your time homeschooling. or 3. Have enough MONEY to pay for a private school.
Choice has always been available for those with MONEY.
KA—you are right that if those that care are free to go other places, it doesn’t fix the problems in the schools they transfered out of. But education is not a zero sum game (where the winners are fated to be winners and the losers are predestined to lose). People—and in this case losy parents—will often change from envy or greed where they won’t change because an authority like teachers simply tells them they should. If a parent sees a neighbor doing better in a school the family WANTS to be at and therefore cooperates with in order to stay—they may be motivated to do what is necessary to switch. That uncooperative parent may change to get in. Yes this may cause some of the default schools to evolve toward what we think of as alternative schools, but the choice not to choose also has consequenses by default. At lease in such a situation those that care are not held hostage by those who don’t.
I did everything I could to help my neighborhood school when my daughter was in pre-K there. It didn’t matter. But I believe in “common schools” in the traditional meaning of the term—-so I put my effort into starting over to create a new kind of public school. Before I left I had a long conversation about what that charter school was trying to do. The teacher’s response was “why can’t we do that here?”. Now that those ideas have a concrete form—the school is looking at trying to disceminate some of those practices back into the traditional schools in the district. This would help all of us.
By MMM
September 19, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this
Our charter school’s experience has been that many of the kids that transfer in at the higher grade levels have had behavior problems or difficulties in the neighborhood school that the family is hoping to outrun by transfering.
Sometimes our school can get them under control with parental cooperation, but discipline is a MAJOR issue everywhere.
By KA
September 19, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this
MMM, I am not talking about a zero sum game either. I am talking about finding out why the schools are failing and fixing the problems, whether they are administrative, curriculum, parental, or money. I don’t think that one school model fits all communitites, either. Change has to come from the top down AND for the bottom up, from the inside and the outside. There is not just one solution to fixing failing schools.
By MMM
September 19, 2006 09:53 AM | Link to this
Thank you KA. We must ALL be willing to try and find the root problems (which are certainly not all within the school walls) and fix them.
Easier said than done—and we must consider opinions such as Jim D’s and mine that are formed out of our own background, skills and experience.
By KA
September 19, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this
MMM, I am considering your opinions and all others posted here. I’m not a teacher, just interested in education. I think your comment about money being the pivot point for choice is very interesting. Money does allow some people to move, but lack of money is usually not the problem in a failing school, whcih may be absenteeism, poor behavior, bad teaching, or PC admins that prevent teachers from keeping order in their classes. Regarding your charter school, you said , “kids that transfer in at the higher grade levels have had behavior problems or difficulties in the neighborhood school that the family is hoping to outrun by transfering” It seems to me that in your experience that bad behavior is the reason for those students failing and the reason they leave, but even at the new school still have behavior problems. So, it seems to me that a program could be implemented for parents and students to do some training together about appropriate behavior in school, about good attendance and paying attention to the teacher so that the student could learn. what do you think?
By Ernest
September 19, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this
I’m enjoying the current dialogue in this blog. True, there is no ‘silver bullet solution’ for addressing the many issues in public education. IMO, the first start is reasonable discussion (along with dissent) so we can do our best to reach as many children as possible. If we are able to provide proper, safe learning environments coupled with choices, it can be done. Then, greater responsibility for learning will shift to the students….
By jim d
September 19, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this
Karen,
Can we assume for the sake of discussion that students wanting to transfer to a choice school are either a problem child or are being un-served by the traditional school?
Assuming this we can further assume that removing the child from the traditional school would a) ease discipline problems in the school or b) ease the strain on the teacher to try to find a method of meeting the child’s IEP. In either case it would result in improved educational opportunities for those remaining. The transferring child wins by going to a school more suited to his needs and will generally have the support of the parents (or they wouldn’t have taken the trouble of moving the child).
I just see this as a win-win situation Our only serious difference is that I don’t care if the school is out of district because both schools and students would gain.
The question as I see it is; Do we want to improve schools and opportunities for all? For only those that live within a jurisdictional boundry? Or are we looking for a cheap fix? Are we willing to pay the price?
By KA
September 19, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this
Ernest, You hit the nail on the head. Each community must have their own truthful discussions about why their school is failing. All parties need to resist pointing fingers of blame, but each must step up and take ownership of the problems. Parents must accept responsibility for their own actions and the influence on their kids’ behavior; school admins must revise policies that don’t fix bad behavior but in effect ignore it; students must take responsiblity for their actions and settle down, learn how to learn; and teachers must be given the freedom to teach and keep order in their classes, and not be oppressed by administrative policies, rules and paperwork. And, institute reading and math bootcamps for poor performers. I know I am repeating myself…Kumbaya Y’all, I am off to work (in case IOC is reading).
By MMM
September 19, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this
KA Programs that modify behavior of parents and their students are another valueable option. The parent resource centers in Dekalb and programs like PAT (parents are teachers) can be excellent—-but in the experience of most educators, the parents who make use of these services are usually not the ones that most need them.
Not all of our older transfers to our charter are behavior problems—-some are refugees who have been ignored in the other schools, some are affluent parents who would not consider the other public school in the neighborhood. One family had three kids, one in the magnet for high achievers, one at the traditional theme middle school, and one in the neighborhood school and they wanted them all to be together in a school with our mission. We had one child who was plucked in the lottery for kittridge (even though she didn’t apply). She went there for one year and the family decided that that was not the “lifestyle choice and values” they wanted, so she is back with us.
I’m not sure that I would accept Jim d’s assertion that all of these kids leaving the other school actually helped it by their leaving it. But I do agree that they were all “underserved”—- no less the relatively well educated and well off parent who really wants their child in a public school, but sees that child’s future as being at risk in the assigned school.
The original term for public schools were “common schools”. This meant that all the children were able to attend without precondition of means or ability yet they would be good enough that even the affluent would be willing to have their children attend. We still don’t have “common neighborhoods” so how can neighborhood schools be truely common? My husband drives past many schools on the way to work, why is the one a half a mile from my house the one my child must attend? But does it really matter if every school in the district is striving to do exactly the same thing in the same way?
We do now have a “state-wide accountability system” and curicculum. In some sense, this makes all the schools in the state “common”. I think we need to expand our view so that every child is served by a common “system” of schools. This does not require that each school should be identical any more that it means that every child is.
By jim d
September 19, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this
MMM,
We must also consider that private entities have a better track record of providing services at a lesser cost than Government does.
Some models of choice programs take this into consideration and allow funding accordingly.
Let’s explore another scenario.
Say a choice school were alloted 85% of the cost of providing services in a traditional setting and say we had 1000 students enrolled in the traditional school and 10% of those opted for a choice school. Then let’s assume the cost of providing services in a traditional setting is $10,000 per pupil and the choice school recieves $8500 per student.
The traditional school then keeps the $1500 difference adding up to the tidy sum of $150,000 that would be available to improve services at the traditional school. Those funds could then be used for teacher supplies or even teacher raises (which I’m sure no one would object to.)
By JustMe
September 19, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this
jim d
Again, your attempts at making this a personal attack loudly displays your lack of maturity.
Since I have already shared my current profession and carrer (unlike you), I will also share that I RETIRED from a fortune 500 company as a director and was living very nicely, thank you. I CHOSE to enter the education profession as a second career (retirement at an early age can become boring).
Your childish comments notwithstanding…. you still have yet to answer the questions: what is your career, what is your coursework on education? Please enlighten us!
When you hear of ideas/opinions, it is always good to consider the source/credibility. Thus far, your credibility is shot.
By JustMe
September 19, 2006 12:08 PM | Link to this
MMM
I have never discounted your opinions, jim d’s opinions, or anyones. I do, however, feel it is important to consider the background, experience, and informal/formal training of the person to understand where they are coming from. Various people come from various perspectives. This does not make them valid or invalid, but it is always important to “consider the source.”
You have shared already that you are a parent interested in education. Since you were inquiring specifically about Clayton County, I guess we can assume that this is where you live. And, Clayton County has its own unique issues to deal with. So, you gave us your background and we know your perspective.
This is far different from jim d. He refuses to share his career or training. For all that we know, he is some terrorist sitting in the middle east posting every 10 minutes (as he does) just to try to stir up trouble in the US.
I would like to address one point made about the cost of private schools. I don’t believe that if your compared apples to apples that private schools educate an individual student any more cheaply compared to a public school. Why is this, you may ask? Consider that private schools pay their teachers less salary and rarely give any sort of benefits to their employees. Because of this, many teachers at private schools are either retired public school teachers (don’t need benefits), new teachers that cannot find a job at the public school, or maybe wives whose husbands have a job with benefits. Consider that private schools rarely have to provide special services to their students whereas public schools must pay to provide services to all students (special needs students, etc.) that is required by law. Consider that public schools must pay to conform to the multitude of laws put forth by the politicans to adhere to NCLB and other laws whereas private schools do not. If everything was equal, I would think that public schools actually educate at far less cost per student compared to private schools.
So it is absolutely not true that a private school can educate at a per student cost any more cheaply than a public school.
By MMM
September 19, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this
Jim d.
I have a number of concerns about the values behind your math.
First—how can equity exist if my child has a lower value as the cost of my “choice”? I don’t think we’ve come this far to create a new “separate and unequal” system.
2—so let’s reward those who haven’t or can’t change with a reverse incentive—get rid of the child, but keep the money.
3—“Choice” within Dekalb in the magnet and theme programs has actually been subsidised with additional transportation and program dollars.
You are mixing three kinds of “choice”.
Private schools—that don’t have to abide by any of the accountability rules, non discrimination or serving all rules.
Magnet and other district programs that cost more because they do all the regular things in the regular ways and then throw district monies at “add-ons” the state doesn’t pay for. And they have entrance requirements as private schools do to boot. (These are good reasons for resentment, in my opinion) and
Charters that are independent 501 3(c) corporations that must meet all non-discrimination, no entrance criteria, and all accountability, but get no funding for facilities, food, transportation, or administration.
Private schools are way easier than Charters to do because they can discriminate in entrance. I don’t think I would hand over taxpayer monies without some serious accountabily for both the money and the outcomes in kids learning.
Give my child equal monies—and let all types of public schools compete and grow or die on the basis of merit.
By MMM
September 19, 2006 12:44 PM | Link to this
Just me.
I live in central Dekalb—the epicenter of NCLB transfers and failing middle and high schools. I agree on most of your points on private school costs. Most of the good ones that aren’t subsidised by being in church buildings cost 12-16K—-more than even Atlanta spends.
However, why should the interest of teachers to be paid well trump the interest of the taxpayers to see that public monies deliver the maximum services for the $. Why exactly did so many teachers “retire” from public schools to then teach in a lower paying position? Were they all fired for incompetence—or were they frustrated by the incompetence around them and chose to trade lower pay for improved working conditions.
By JustMe
September 19, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this
MMM
Your type of “choice” would not work, either. Consider the special needs student whose cost to educate is far more than a general level student. That child may require a set of content teachers (English, Math, etc.), a special education teacher, a para (possibly to aid with going to the bathroom or pushing a wheel chair around), and so on.
Your idea to give each child equal monies and then allow “choice” is certainly not fair if the US is tasked with providing a given level of education for ALL children.
By JustMe
September 19, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this
MMM
To answer your question about retired teachers teaching in private school, I was referring to public school teachers that have put in their 30 years of service and retired, and yet still feel the call to teach. So, they go to a small private school where they do not have to do all of the paperwork and other BS required at a public school.
Also, FYI, I teach in a high performing DeKalb County school. I cringe when people make a blanket statement about DeKalb County (especially bad statements) because there are some great success stories.
By jim d
September 19, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this
MMM,
Fact is that charter schools are choice schools that often operate on less funding with local school districts using the difference in local funds in the traditional schools. I don’t foresee that changing anytime soon.
The Center for Education Reform’s Charter Schools 2002: Results from Charter Schools 2002: Results from CER’s Annual Survey of America’s Charter Schools offers a closer look at the charter school movement: 1. Funding and Cost Savings. Charter schools are typically required to operate with less funding than traditional public schools and in many cases finance their capital costs for facilities out of their per-pupil expenditures. The CER 2002 charter survey found that charter school per-pupil cost averaged $4,507—far less than the national per-pupil average of $7,000 reported by the National Center for Education Statistics. The average amount that charters actually receive per pupil is $4,346. Charter school operators report that about 4 percent of their budget is provided from private donors. Charter school operators spend 15 percent of their annual budget on capital expenses and facilities. By comparison, traditional public schools do not pay capital expenses out of per-pupil revenue because it is included in the school district’s capital budget
http://www.rppi.org/nochild.html
By MMM
September 19, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this
Correct Jim. I live in that world. But is that FAIR! And are you advocating for reduced funding for public education—-because that is where your argument leads?
Just me
The funding system in Georgia applies labels and reimburses acording to needs with special ed, LEP, Title1, etc all commanding a premium $$ over a white middle class kid.
When I advocate equity, I do want this kind of needs based funding differencial to remain. Whatever the amount of money that is, we should agree upon it in a transparent way and let it follow the child. But equity does not mean that that “low needs” child should get more money spent on them just because they have been lucky enough to get the lottery seat at the arts magnet.
That way there would be competition to serve the special needs children rather than competition to ignore them.
There are huge difference in how well the different Dekalb schools do. Just not in the Memorial drive corridor/Clarkston high school where I live. Except for the elementary Arts magnet. So, why do you consider your school a sucess?
By jim d
September 19, 2006 01:32 PM | Link to this
MMM,
No, I’m advocating equal per student funding minus administrative fees incurred by the local school district in administering the charter.
By MMM
September 19, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this
Thank you Jim!
and just to short circuit Just Me’s prior point, that is “equal to the agreed upon cost assigned to a student of the particular special needs that the child has been identified as having”.
With costs to house the child also included at the same rate as other public schools.
Correct?
By fedup
September 19, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this
I think there should be no transfers allowed. You either go to your zoned school or go to a private school.
Parents that think their “little johnny” would do so much better at a different school would probably do so much better if the parents were just more involved.
To heck with the NO Child Left Behind mess. Kids have been left behind for years.
Its time to get rid of all the standardized tests and let the teachers teach!!!
By JustMe
September 19, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this
MMM,
Why do I consider my school a success? Well, while the school make up includes a great % of reduced/free lunches (I believe over 50%) and also a very diverse ethnic breakdown (about 50% black, 30% white, 10% hispanic, and then other), and so on, the school has had tremendous successes.
Some of the successes include: 1. higher SAT average than the national average or GA average 2. last year there were 5 Governors Honors students 3. a tremendous arts program to include national awards by students 4. graduates regularly gain acceptance to Yale, Duke, GA Tech,Harvard, MIT, and other prestigous colleges 5. a great AP program to include AP Calculus, AP Biology, and AP History 6. educational outreach to help the special needs students 7. ranked as one of the top 25 high schools in GA 8. ranked in Newsweek as one of the top high schools in the nation 9. with one of the oldest facilities in GA (and all that entails), the faculty manage somehow to teach through it all (regular power outages, AC break downs, phone system going down, very small classes - square footage, but still the same number of students/class) 10. 3 consecutive years making AYP 11. a great variety of electives to include dance, orchestra, art, photography, and more.
In addition, the school has seen 3 administrations in the last 5 years.
And there is more. With these statements, you can probably figure out what high school it is, but oh well….
By JustMe
September 19, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this
jim d
First of all, I am not saying that I believe your numbers (I am still waiting for your credentials)….
But, if charter schools, as you say, get a lot of their money from private funding, how can you say that they operate more cheaply? If you strictly compare only the money from the school system, then yes, they do operate more cheaply. But, if they additional money from contributions, then they may or may not operate more cheaply. Again, you have to compare apples to apples.
By jim d
September 19, 2006 05:59 PM | Link to this
Dear just me,
I provided a link to my source. Rather than question me why not contact the source and question them? I’m confident they could provide you with whatever credentials you are seeking.
HAGD.
By MMM
September 19, 2006 08:48 PM | Link to this
Just me.
So you work at DSA, with all the subsidies and advantages it gets from the district and still have the nerve to complain about charters that get none of them? We don’t get to audition in our children. The district doesn’t pay to bus them in from wherever. How many LEP kids do you have? Bragging about your “high” numbers of free and reduced lunch kids when I bet the percentages are lower than the district as a whole. Same for the numbers of minority kids. I do know you certainly have involved parents that are quite willing to be a pain at every school board meeting. If we were that pushy, we would be shut down.
So you think you deserve a new building because you’ve raised enough monies to privately hire an architech? We have to raise 4 times that amount annually or our doors will close next year!
I’d gladly trade sharing space with a church for ANY building of our own. And your math skills also leave a lot to be desired if you think the private donations of 4% make up for district underfunding of 35%.
By JustMe
September 20, 2006 08:08 AM | Link to this
MMM
LOL!!! Please re-read your post. You attack me so much and you are so wrong. No, I do not work at DSA. My school is a regular public school like any other. I do think that an apology is in order.
By jim d
September 20, 2006 08:09 AM | Link to this
Just me,
Indeed I now question your credentials and motives. You are at a school that in no way can be compared to a traditional public school. This is a school that selects its students. You serve somewhere around 300 students when most high schools are pushing up to 10 times that number. With a per pupil expenditure that far exceeds that of the average in the county.
“Interested students must demonstrate the potential and commitment to succeed in this rigorous program. To qualify, students must have an 80% and/or 3.0 grade point average (with no ‘D’s or ‘F’s in the two most recent semesters), pass two auditions, have a personal interview, and be recommended by two teachers or arts professionals and two academic teachers. To remain in the program, students must maintain an 80% grade average and earn 2 production credits each year.”
Yet you slam choice programs where students select a school to attend while you select the best a screw the rest
What a friggin hypocrite!
Do me a favor and just BITE ME!
By jim d
September 20, 2006 08:15 AM | Link to this
I apologize if you aren’t at DSA. Your previous post most certainly matched DSA’s credentials.
By Ernest
September 20, 2006 09:22 AM | Link to this
JustMe, I LIKE riddles! Your school was built in 1927, obviously the oldest schoolhouse being used in the county. It has a rich history of academic excellence. It is also located near a world renown private university. Did I guess right?
By MMM
September 20, 2006 09:37 AM | Link to this
Just me—-yes I owe you an appology. It has been brought to my attention that you are more likely to be from Druid Hills. DSA has a larger black population than the one you quoted. So the prescreening of children acusation is not warrented.
However, given the general affluence and high educational level of the neighborhoods that Druid Hills serves, if that is your school, I can understand anyone districted for Druid Hills would take the position that no one outside that districted area should be allowed in. This is why redistricting fights are so mean—they affect property values.
Patty—-I think it would be interesting to have a separate blog on the topic of “common schools”. Do they exist? Are those requirements still the ones that make a school worthy of public funding? Do start-up charters meet that criteria? Do magnet schools like DSA? and is location of your house the appropriate unit of measure for “fair” school assignment? (this may be more than one blog.)
By JustMe
September 20, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this
MMM
The Druid Hills school district does cover the Emory area. And, yes, some of that is affluent. However, the Druid Hills school district also covers much of Clarkston (and not the good parts). Druid Hills is extremely diverse from all aspects!
As far as accepting students from other districts, Druid Hills accepted over 250 students from other high schools throughout DeKalb County that did not make AYP last year. The limited facilities were bursting at the seams. There were Biology classes with 50 students for the first 3 weeks. Every year, Druid Hills accepts a large number of students from other districts - most of those students transfer due to behavioral problems. Druid Hills only turns away students once the capacity is reached.
Druid Hills is a regular, general, public high school. Druid Hills does not get special privileges or special money or special anything. DeKalb County, in fact, gives more funding to the “lesser” schools compared to Druid Hills because Druid Hills does succeed. The student/teacher ratio at Druid Hills is not as good compared to other DeKalb County schools because Druid Hills does succeed. Druid Hills does not get private money from the community.
By MMM
September 20, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this
JustMe
Honey, I live on the southeast side of Clarkston—there is no “good side”. McLendon, the one school that is zoned for Druid Hills that isn’t immediately around Emory, has some of the best single family neighborhoods in the Clarkston area, but it is also fed by half of the slum appartments that are the biggest single feeder of refugee children into our charter school.
Yes, you may have had to take more transfers than your building can hold, and should be given fewer in the future, but I find the characterization that “most of those students transfer due to behavioral problems” an insult. I would certainly not consider my children a problem, and would want to transfer to Druid Hills from Clarkston High School.
Several of the older siblings of students in our school tried to get transfers because they were being beaten up (because they were focusing on learning—as are my own) at the local school.
Why doesn’t Druid Hills go after some private money to supliment some of these extra efforts you discribe? There is certainly plenty of capacity in your area?
Weren’t you also a conversion charter some years back? Why, and why not now?
By JustMe
September 20, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this
MMM -
When I said the most of the students that transfer are due to behavioral problems, I was not referring to the 250 AYP students from other schools. I was referring to the other students that are “expelled” from their home school and are sent to Druid Hills by the County.
I did not live in the area that long ago, but it is my understanding that Druid Hills did not renew its charter over 7 years ago mostly because DeKalb County didn’t want Druid Hills to be a charter school. The paperwork to be sent into the State was delayed and the due date lapsed. I don’t know why Druid Hills doesn’t go after a charter now…
Also, I don’t know anything about going after private money and all that entails. Since the walls are crawling with an excessive number of students and not enough faculty, I think that Druid Hills currently has their hands full.
If you want to transfer your students, I suggest submitting the request on a regular basis (maybe even once a month). Don’t give up. That way, if a slot does open up, yours will be the first to get in.
By SET
September 20, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this
I also suspect JustMe’s statistical claims. They are so good they are (extremely so) not likely to be true. Like Jim D says - unless the students are handpicked there is no way you can get that collection of students at random and have the results claimed.
For Example: The US Military screens by IQ (the dull are kept out), so black schools fed by military bases will have a statistically unusual (higher) performance level compared to any other black school. The students are not random. Other anomalies occur when the blacks in question are West Indians who have a higher average IQ than American Blacks.
The claim is 50% Black, 30% White and 10% Hispanic with half the students getting subsidized lunches. What would be also be interesting is to look at the 5 year trends. In my experience - which does not include GA specifically - once the black percentages start moving beyond a certain number the white numbers drop quickly (white flight occurs). JustMe would have us believe this is a stable black majority school with great performances - everybody happy - with no cooking of the stats. Right.
JustMe’s claims that everything is beautiful is probably seen through strong Rose Colored Glasses. Or just false.
By JustMe
September 20, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this
SET
Look up Druid Hills high school. What I said is true. I never said that everyone is happy. I never said that Druid Hills was without problems or issues. But, what I did say was right on the money.
Try: www.greatschools.net
By Ernest
September 20, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this
JustMe, don’t worry about the darts being thrown your way. Those of us that know Druid Hills HS, it’s community, and it’s reputation are proud of its accomplishments. It has gone through many changes over the years yet continues turning out successful graduates. In keeping with this topic, this is a school many would lie about their residency to get into.
By lynn d
September 20, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this
SET
I too have seen the studies about what happens in public schools once the caucasian population slips below a certain percentage. However, in Metro Atlanta, in the last decade or so, we have numerous public schools that have bucked that trend.
First, metro Atlanta doesn’t have an abundance of high quality private schools to flee too. Many of the private schools in the area have nothing to offer academically that is better than the neighborhood public school. Second, traffic is a huge concern for many, so they stay in close in neighborhoods with the well integrated schools rather than flee to the further suburbs.
My children’s public elementary school has sat at somewhere between 40-45% white for nearly a decade and a half. While the other 50 percent or so varies, sometimes more “other” sometimes more black, it seems to work for us.
By MMM
September 20, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this
SET I agree with lynn, Ernest and JustMe that your implication that Druid Hill is about to flip “ghetto” just because there are a certain number of blacks are off base.
There have been areas of town where there is rising affluence with more affluent and educated residents deciding to go back into public schools. Oakhearst has done so, with just a little more imput, I think the more affluent population of Avondale Estates would do so. Much of the North/South infighting in Dekalb is because the Black middle class in the South wants the same high expectations that have in the past been the monopoly of Northern (used to be only White) schools. Druid Hills is no longer lilly white—-but it has never been skin color that determines quality. Justme has a right to be proud of her school. And she is right to raise the question of when transfers are overdone to the point of overwhelming a building that is too old and small.
Do you have this kind of discussion in California? If not—I think you might consider that this dialog is part of the solution. Atlanta has had a long history of both racial tension and dialog. There is a series in the paper this week on the race riots in 1906. We have come a long way together. I am white, but my son is downstairs laughing right now with his best friend, a refugee from Burandi whose family arrived with nothing 6 years ago. My goal is to have an educational program that will nuture them both together.
By MMM
September 20, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this
Sorry for the typos above. Hope you can get the point anyway.
By SET
September 20, 2006 06:38 PM | Link to this
MMM: The demographics of CA are quite different than GA. I wasn’t thinking “about to flip” - I was thinking “has already flipped”.
But since I’m not experienced with your demographics I can’t tell - I’d love to have more data about the 5 year or 10 year trends with that school.
Either way I thought the stats presented on this (hypothetical?) school were unlike any I’ve seen in national discussions of school performance.
As far as your son’s friend - I do know that a 1st generation immigrant in no way shape or form compares to home grown Blacks. I have Ethiopian in-laws - there is a huge block of Ethiopians who have settled in certain regions of CA. Academically they make roadkill out of the native blacks. 1st generation African immigrants profile differently and can’t be used as examples of American Black performance or mores.
As far as skin color determining quality - the performance of large groups of one ethnic does differ from large groups of another ethnic. They have different strenghts and weaknesses.
Quality is a subjective word. I’m not saying what is better in what sense - but that ethnic groups (averages and distribution) are different in various performance measures. Only politically correct fools (which control public education) claim differently.
The current Educrats set different levels of expectation (deportment and academic performance) for the races and in so doing they have turned what once was the best school system in the world to the mess it is now. I’d prefer that we set objective standards for class enrollment and maintenance at every school and grade level and force out those who can’t or won’t meet those standards into more suitable programs. And when it’s sink or swim time, people take lessons.
This would provide better working conditions for the teachers, better learning environments for the students (especially the ones not allowed in academic programs), abate the violence we see in urban schools and improve the performance of our workforce.
By MMM
September 21, 2006 06:40 PM | Link to this
http://www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/
SET:
Dekalb’s website. Look up Druid Hills, Lakeside, Southwest. Excellent general schools that don’t follow your bell curve expectations.
Did you watch any of Corretta Scott King’s funeral. That is South Dekalb.
By Newbie
September 26, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this
I’ve just become aware of this thread, and was interested because I have a child at the aforementioned “mythical” high school. It is my understanding (and direct observation) that the demographics cited above are pretty much accurate.
To get to the original thread topic (I think), this school experienced a considerable increase in the number of students last year because of transfers from schools that did not make AYP. It was my understanding that they were not open to transfers for this year because they were beyond capacity, and yet this school population is even bigger this year - the current freshman class is more than twice the size of the freshman class two years ago. There aren’t enough lockers for all the students. Between classes, the halls look like spawning time for the salmon. Half of my child’s classes exceed the state-mandated class size. Where did all these students come from?
Many are administrative transfers at the parent’s request and students who transferred to the middle school (because of NCLB) and went on to the high school even though they were not supposed to. While this is not plain old lying as what occurred in the Fayette case, it’s still not honesty.
I completely understand the motivation of parents who want the best for their children (and I believe that many of them do, rather than just wanting to live in a low-tax area and still have the high-tax area schools). But what about my child? Is my child getting the best? I am really don’t know where I stand yet….
By yesiamworried
September 26, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this
Newbie
The problem in DeKalb is that there is a culture that says that simply moving schools will solve your child’s problems. In addition, many board members feel it is their job to make sure their constituents are happy, even if that means demanding a transfer for certain families. (Yes this is against the rules… it is one of the reasons that we need a whole new school board in DeKalb.)