Get Schooled

By SET

September 12, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

Teschers are no more sacred that other workers. There is no reason to expemt them from taxes. They are already out of touch with reality - let’s not add to it.

Pay and working conditions are the issue. Even if a labor union is banned in GA there is no reason why the teachers can’t form a political association to politically lobby for their wishes - if they can manage to get on the same page.

Having said that, if the pay and working conditions are unacceptable, Teachers should publicly discourage anyone from coming into the profession and quit whenever feasible. It’s wrong to subsidize a corrupt system with your presence. If it’s that bad…

By BlindHomer

September 12, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this

No taxes? Can’t be much of an American if you don’t help pay the fare. However, if you’ll voluntarily reduce your pay below the poverty level to say $13,000 not only won’t you pay federal tax you can actually get a credit if you have a dependent child. Realizing a large part of improving overall quality is getting rid of the culls I suggest adding the following; 8) reduce pay 10% for each student that doesn’t pass CRCT in your subject, 9) fire anyone that complains about poor achievement being caused by the students, the parents, or the administrators.

By Rod

September 12, 2006 04:25 PM | Link to this

THIS BLOG IS PATHETIC - you couldn’t come up with something better on your own?

Why not give those benefits to doctors, nurses, policemen, firefighters, pharmacists, etc? Because then the government would have no money to help us with.

AJC - get someone to write a REAL blog topic!

By TinaTeach

September 12, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this

A drop of ten percent in pay per student isn’t any better than the suggestion of not paying federal taxes (what American WANTS to pay taxes I ask?). There are so many things wrong on both sides of the system. I also believe that such a large increase in starting pay would attract undesirables into the system who would teach for a little and then leave. 1)There are programs from places like WaMu that give teachers a leg-up on home loans. 2)There is also a federal loan forgiveness program for those who are in a critical needs field or who teach at an in-need school. It begins three or five years(can’t remember which) after you have been teaching and reduces your debt by a percentage each year. 3)There are no unions in Georgia for teachers (I have been told they are illegal) we do have organizations such as the GAE (an affliate with a national union but I don’t think it’s a union itself), PAGE, and I think MACE is still around. 4)Firing a teacher because they complain would be like firing an employee for complaining, soon we’d have no one working. Teachers can complain and have a right to do so. And poor student progress can sometimes be caused by any of the things BlindHomer listed. If a child is falling asleep in class because his parents refuse to enforce a bedtime then that is a situation the can be out of a teachers hands to control.
5)However there are bad teachers out there who will put the blame on everyone but themselves

By jim d

September 12, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this

Oh yeah —- I got a few for you. But i assure you. You don’t want them!

By b. white

September 12, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this

Get a life. You knew a teacher didn’t make much when you chose that profession. I don’t mind one bit paying federal taxes.

By b. white

September 12, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this

Get a life. You knew a teacher didn’t make much when you chose that profession. I don’t mind one bit paying federal taxes.

By jim d

September 12, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Teachers can’t form a union. Nothing says they have to show up for work now is there.

By mae teach

September 12, 2006 05:06 PM | Link to this

Just pay me. I don’t care about paying taxes….. Yes,I want another favor. just let those lazy parents learn to be better parents and help their little darlings with homework and projects, that’s my PRAYER!

By luvs2teach

September 12, 2006 05:07 PM | Link to this

Well, I don’t mind paying my taxes - if anyone should be exempt, it’s the men and women serving in our armed forces.

I like the loan forgiveness; something like that is already offered, but I believe it’s only to teachers who teach in title one schools. I also like the help with home loans - it promotes stability.

I would like more authority in my classroom - both in getting rid of trouble makers who aren’t there to learn as well as being able to teach. I vote though, to get rid of all the high priced consultants and programs that make empty promises and waste teachers time by rehashing the stuff we already know.

We don’t have unions here so there is nothing to abolish. I am not a pro-union person, but states with strong unions also tend to have higher test scores. Correlation? Don’t know.

Our starting salaries here in the metro region are comparable to other industries requiring similar education - it’s outside the metro region that they drop. It’s also with longevity that teachers lose out on decent increases. I would love performance bonuses, merit pay, and longevity bonues - keeping good teachers in the profession and at the same school would help raise scores.

Blind Homer - I think I am a fair and reasonable person but I would quit the day I told to take a 10% pay cut for a child not passing the CRCT. Since the CRCT has been implemented as part of NCLB, I have kept track of my “failures.” Every single one of them was a child that missed large amounts of school due to truancy or suspensions. They were also sent on the the 8th grade with 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade reading levels (maybe part of their problem, eh?). They can’t do simplae math and yet I’m supposed to explain the Kepler’s Law and the orbit of the planets? Yeah, right.

Instead let’s make it a 10% raise for every child that exceeds standards - that I’d go for.

Poor achievement has multiple factors - including the student, the parents, the administrators, and not excluding teachers. An article I read mentioned 14 - FOURTEEN - factors - some were teacher/school related and some were student/family-related. Don’t dump all the blame on teachers.

Rod - you mustn’t come here often - Patti’s topics are often quite good, and I like the fact that she takes readers’ commnets and turns them into blog posters.

But of course, I’m just a dumb ignorant teacher with my head in the clouds and nowhere in reality, so what do I know.

By jim d

September 12, 2006 05:07 PM | Link to this

Gotta give this blogger one thing though.

If it is a teacher it has to be one of the most honest teachers I’ve run into. At least he/she admits “it is about the money”

By luvs2teach

September 12, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

Yes, Jim D, there is - it’s called breach of contract, and can result in the pulling of our teaching certificate.

By OldSchool

September 12, 2006 05:18 PM | Link to this

UNCLE! This is getting just plain scary and I’m taking a mental health break!

I’ve never complained about my pay; about my tax bill; about my hours; about much of anything other than student apathy and laziness. I can promise you folks this: I will NEVER join a union. I went into teaching with my eyes wide open about the pay. The working conditions and level of student interest in my subject have deteriorated over the years but I’m still here because there is always one or two students who love to learn and that makes up for the duds…somewhat. There is no way I could walk out of my classroom and into a picket line. It just isn’t in me.

Just someone tell me this- since standardized tests cover the academic areas and pay for performance is based on those standardized test scores, are we CTAE instructors just out of luck for the extra pay? Our courses have math, science, communications and the like thoroughly integrated into the curriculum but no way to prove we help students succeed in the academic areas.

And with that, I’m on my mental health break. See you kiddies later!

By Ronda

September 12, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

As a 2nd year teacher I would LOVE not to pay taxes but those same federal taxes pay for programs I benefit from. Instead why not give teachers more bonuses or incentives for passing Praxis or certifications, more than just giving $100 that doesn’t even cover the cost of the test. The private sector has tuition reimbursement so why not the school system. I noticed that alot of schools in GA don’t have many teachers past the Masters level of education. That’s because its costs money to go and teachers can’t afford to improve their education.

As for the curriculum, teachers need to be given more say so but better curriculum needs to come out. In preschool, the area I teach, it is extremely difficult to find good curriculum and it is very expensive - sometimes $1000 per classroom.

And to SET…teachers are more sacred than other workers. We aren’t better than everyone else but a large percentage of people are where we are because of good teachers. We should praise teachers for the many hours spent after school, on weekends and at home working on improving instruction to exceed the curriculum. There is alot behind the scenes that has to come together for good instruction that most students never see. My preschoolers will never know that I come in 1 hour before school starts and spend at least 7-8 hours per week on instruction, lesson plans and activities. What they do know is that they love school, have fun AND learn.

Salary - salary should be increased some and teachers given a standard of living increase just like those in a public sector that get good evaluations. Increasing the salary will not just bring in Joe Blow. People won’t sign up for a degree in teaching based on $5-7,000 extra per year its not enough about a profession that is known for its level of commitment. The reason Teach for Georgia was started because of the decreasing number of available teachers and its only going to get worse. Also, those that come out of the corporate world to teach have alot of hoops to jump through to be in the classroom. Society gets so upset when someone changes their mind about teaching. How many students have spent years becoming doctors, lawyers, getting MBAs only to discover that wasn’t really what they wanted to do? It happens in ALL professions. What is important is that the system we put in place makes sure the teachers are doing a good job. Its not perfect so it needs to constantly evolve.

As for getting troublemakers out, this society has created a generation of parents that think its okay to let our children get away with alot and that its not okay for teachers to intervene. So if we want to point the finger, point it at ourselves. We can only do so much as teachers and the parents have to realize they have to at least meet us halfway. We don’t raise them, you do.

For those of us that are passionate about teaching, its not a profession, its a calling. I actually came from the corporate world but I got my Masters in Education first, then secured a job instead of just jumping into the classroom without any tools to help me.

People in general think its so easy to be a teacher. It is if you just show up for a paycheck and teach directly out of a textbook with no other methods to bring the instruction to life.

Spend some time in your child’s classroom - it will either give you a new found respect for teaching or encourage you to get more involved in your school so that lazy, sorry teachers will be so aggravated by your involvement that they get out.

By Michael

September 12, 2006 05:47 PM | Link to this

Summers and all school holidays off is not enough incentive? Give me a 10 months a year job, spring breaks, christmas breaks, and teaching to a book any day.

By 30 year teacher

September 12, 2006 05:51 PM | Link to this

For the life of me I cannot understand why a teacher should not pay federal taxes. We are citizens of this country and reap the benefits like anyone else. Ditto for loans. Why should loans be forgiven? They are an obligation incurred when you sign the papers. Who will pick up the debt for your free ride? As for the other points… most of them are dealt with in one form or another with the exception of problem students in the classroom. This is an ongoing situation that only seems to get worse although I happen to have been very fortunate for the most part to have had administrators who are very supportive of their teachers.

I teach in FL and we do receive substantial bonus money if our schools are determined to be “A” schools. Every teacher in the building receives the bonus equally since it takes all of us , not just math, English, and science to achieve success. (I teach English and it does not bother me one whit to know all instructors even those not included in standardized teaching receive the same as I do.) We’re all in this together. This is determined by many factors including standardized testing, in our case the FCAT. Our students are checked for yearly improvement to include the lowest 25% of the student body and bonuses paid accordingly to the schools that achieve criteria.

As for unions, we do have unions although teachers will lose certification if they strike. I do not belong to a union. Seems awfully blue collar to me in what is a white collar profession. I also find many union issues closely tied to politics supporting candidates and issues I do not believe in.

And directly to ‘Gift’. Why have you posted mutiple times on two different sites?

By JustMe

September 12, 2006 05:53 PM | Link to this

Patti -

A new idea for a blog….

DeKalb County is heading towards trouble. Under the heading of a program called “high schools that work” they are forcing every teacher in every school to teach exactly the same thing each day. In addition, they will be forcing every teacher in every class to give the exact same test on the same day.

When this is fully implemented, teachers will be leaving DeKalb County by the hundreds. Why doesn’t DeKalb County just hire robots to teach? Whatever happened to treating the student as an individual? Little Sally needs an extra day to understand? Too bad! The entire class already knows the material? Too bad!

Good, professional teachers will never stand to work under such constraints. It really will take away from any sort of job satisfaction that possibly remains in the profession.

By Ronda

September 12, 2006 05:53 PM | Link to this

As a 2nd year teacher I would LOVE not to pay taxes but those same federal taxes pay for programs I benefit from. Instead why not give teachers more bonuses or incentives for passing Praxis or certifications, more than just giving $100 that doesn’t even cover the cost of the test. The private sector has tuition reimbursement so why not the school system. I noticed that alot of schools in GA don’t have many teachers past the Masters level of education. That’s because its costs money to go and teachers can’t afford to improve their education.

As for the curriculum, teachers need to be given more say so but better curriculum needs to come out. In preschool, the area I teach, it is extremely difficult to find good curriculum and it is very expensive - sometimes $1000 per classroom.

And to SET…teachers are more sacred than other workers. We aren’t better than everyone else but a large percentage of people are where we are because of good teachers. We should praise teachers for the many hours spent after school, on weekends and at home working on improving instruction to exceed the curriculum. There is alot behind the scenes that has to come together for good instruction that most students never see. My preschoolers will never know that I come in 1 hour before school starts and spend at least 7-8 hours per week on instruction, lesson plans and activities. What they do know is that they love school, have fun AND learn.

Salary - salary should be increased some and teachers given a standard of living increase just like those in a public sector that get good evaluations. Increasing the salary will not just bring in Joe Blow. People won’t sign up for a degree in teaching based on $5-7,000 extra per year its not enough about a profession that is known for its level of commitment. The reason Teach for Georgia was started because of the decreasing number of available teachers and its only going to get worse. Also, those that come out of the corporate world to teach have alot of hoops to jump through to be in the classroom. Society gets so upset when someone changes their mind about teaching. How many students have spent years becoming doctors, lawyers, getting MBAs only to discover that wasn’t really what they wanted to do? It happens in ALL professions. What is important is that the system we put in place makes sure the teachers are doing a good job. Its not perfect so it needs to constantly evolve.

As for getting troublemakers out, this society has created a generation of parents that think its okay to let our children get away with alot and that its not okay for teachers to intervene. So if we want to point the finger, point it at ourselves. We can only do so much as teachers and the parents have to realize they have to at least meet us halfway. We don’t raise them, you do.

For those of us that are passionate about teaching, its not a profession, its a calling. I actually came from the corporate world but I got my Masters in Education first, then secured a job instead of just jumping into the classroom without any tools to help me.

People in general think its so easy to be a teacher. It is if you just show up for a paycheck and teach directly out of a textbook with no other methods to bring the instruction to life.

Spend some time in your child’s classroom - it will either give you a new found respect for teaching or encourage you to get more involved in your school so that lazy, sorry teachers will be so aggravated by your involvement that they get out.

By JustMe

September 12, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

Michael,

If you really think that what you described is the teaching profession, then why don’t you teach?

The reason is because you are inaccurate in describing the profession. Why do you want to perpetuate such lies?

Yes, teachers have breaks/vacations. Doesn’t every professional job?

Teacher pay is BASED on working 10 months. We don’t get paid for the other 2. I am sure that if want to leave your job for 2 months a year then your company won’t be paying you for those 2 months either!

The State of GA curriculum is not included in any single book (at least at the high school level). There is no such thing as “teaching a book.”

Are you telling me that your company doesn’t have Christmas holiday? How about Thanksgiving holiday?

Now, please, stop your BSing. There is enough false statements flying around without yours!

By Ronda

September 12, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

Wow, it only took a few minutes for a person who has never been in a classroom to shadow a teacher to respond. You must be talking about all the bad teachers since the good ones spend so much extra time in preplanning, post planning, at home working on lesson plans, in seminars, before school, after school that by the time you are out for 7 weeks over the summer, you are just catching up with the all comp time you built up during the year. Just because school begins at 8 and ends at 2 doesn’t mean the teacher just clocked those hours. Just because there is a teacher version of a textbook doesn’t mean it magically teaches itself.

If we concentrated less on mocking teachers for all the so called time off and instead put energy into encouraging those there for a paycheck to leave, society wouldn’t have such an issue with the time off.

By catlady

September 12, 2006 06:10 PM | Link to this

These are targeted toward the national, state, and local levels: 1) Don’t treat us like idiots (scripted lessons, checking plan books, “snapshots”,etc.) 2) Remember that our professional opinions are just that—don’t discount them (SSTs for Special Ed testing that last years without help for the struggling child) 3) Use us wisely (monitoring breakfast is not a wise use of my time—any idiot, see above, can do that) 4) Back us up unflinchingly when we send a student to the office (‘nuff said). Talk to us privately about it. 5) Routinely, aggressively call parents in for conferences or sit in on conferences for troubled/troubling students. Call parents to report on success or lack of. Call in DFCS when parents do not assist. 6) Find alternative placements for disruptive students (let us teach) 7) Don’t show favoritism (coach’s wife picks her time, assignments, etc.) 8) Keep the dialogue open (don’t command from on high) 9) Don’t choose materials and programs without our input (Reading First, SRA Reading/Math) 10) Get feedback from us about all areas of our work and act on them (ineffective areas) 11) Equalize the workload within the bounds of the law (no teaching one class a day for the football coach, or leaving early for the school board member’s daughter) 12) Give us step raises after the (current) maximum years 13) Don’t expect us to stay at school “just 15 extra minutes a day” (it adds up to an unpaid week of time for our families over the course of a year) 14) Hire competent parapros and let them work 15) Get rid of incompetent people at the school and central office level (instead of just shifting them around so they can accure time to retire—they are screwing it up for everybody) 16) Make decisions based on the best for the largest group of students, instead of putting any special group first.

By catlady

September 12, 2006 06:15 PM | Link to this

BTW, does anyone know if the state contract calls for a certain number of hours per week as a standard? Seems like I recall it being 35 in days long ago. Our county continues to add on. We now are expected to be at the school for 40 hours per week, plus meetings, plus “duty”and our students’ day has lengthened again to “get in more math”. Just wondering what the standard is, because of the earlier comment about the students being there 8-2.

By teach overseas

September 12, 2006 06:16 PM | Link to this

I don’t really think the problem is attracting teachers as it is REATAINING the ones that we have. Three out of five new teachers leave their jobs before five years in the classroom. I’m willing to bet that most of the would stay- for the same pay and benefits if the working conditions (student behavior and admin support) would improve. I know that is what got me out of public education. I make loads extra now teaching overseas- but it’s the bright, pleasant kids, supportive parents and on the ball admin that makes me stay.

By JustMe

September 12, 2006 06:17 PM | Link to this

30 Year Teacher….

The State of GA does certainly NOT have teacher unions. It is illegal.

GA has professional organizations like PAGE and GAE. They, themselves, proclaim loudly that they are NOT unions. If they did make such a claim then their members would be arrested because there is a State Law against it.

The State of Georgia has a strangle hold on education, educators, teachers. It is the law.

Northern States such as New York, Illinois, and such do not have laws against unions. There are real teacher unions there.

By JustMe

September 12, 2006 06:20 PM | Link to this

catlady…

I love your points - you are right on target. There is one major problem, you are too logical so no one will listen to you.

By luvs2teach

September 12, 2006 06:24 PM | Link to this

30 year teacher - the loan forgiveness, or a service cancellable loan, is not exclusive to the field of teaching - you also see it in doctors and dentists(whose loans are easily 3x a teacher’s) who agree to provide care in underserved areas, service in the military and Peace Corps, as well as teaching in Title 1 schools or critical areas.

It’s a loss-leader - like a special at the grocery store - designed to get people to do something they may not otherwise do. Sometimes it’s loan forgivness; sometimes it’s a deferrment. It’s not a simple “sign the contract and you’re done” - usually your have to agree to serve for a certain number of years - at least three, often more. After that each year of service may only cnacel one year of your loan.

I see these as a win-win situation, not a fringe benefit that benefits only one side.

By Honest Abe

September 12, 2006 06:33 PM | Link to this

Just me,

30 year old starts off her second paragraph with “I teach in Florida.”

I hope you’re more diligent when grading papers!

By Honest Abe

September 12, 2006 06:36 PM | Link to this

Just me,

30 year old starts off her second paragraph with “I teach in florida.”

I hope you’re more diligent when grading papers!

By JustMe

September 12, 2006 06:42 PM | Link to this

Honest Abe,

Thanks for the clarification. However, you can stick your smart remark where the Sun doesn’t shine.

By Michael

September 12, 2006 07:25 PM | Link to this

I periodically teach highwire tricks in seminars to motivated adults who pay to be there - lawyers. No, my company does not take Christmas off from December 17th to January 4th. No, my company does not have Spring Break. No, my company does not have six or seven weeks off during the summer where I am not paid. Hmm, divide a teacher’s salary by 10 months, instead of 12, and then tell us again how little they make. Mischaracterizing my statement of “teaching to a book” as suggesting there is one big book containing everything taught in school says more about your character than mine.

If there are issues regarding working unpaid overtime there are wage and hour lawsuits that can address this. For instance, Dept of Justice lawyers sued the federal govt over uncompensated time and won. Govt tried to say these white-collar lawyers were akin to management and therefore wage and hour laws did not apply. The cutting edge in wage and hour litigation right now has to do with everyone with employer-provided Blackberries and cellphones, whose weekends and evenings are interrupted by yet another email or call from the boss.

By HS Teacher Too

September 12, 2006 08:00 PM | Link to this

“Summers and all school holidays off is not enough incentive? Give me a 10 months a year job, spring breaks, christmas breaks, and teaching to a book any day.”

Michael, it’s unfortunate, because from your impression of teachers, it sounds as though you never had a good one. Good teachers do more than what you describe. GREAT teachers do far more than anyone can imagine. And best of all — they don’t think of it as work. It’s their passion.

Unfortunately, too many people have Michael’s idea of teachers, and I would bet that is because there are so few good (nevermind GREAT) teachers who stay in it for the long haul. They get out because the system, in one way or another, doesn’t support them — whether it’s in allowing autonomy, freeing them from micro-managing, not upholding standards, not backing up discipline problems — whatever the problem may be, our public schools lose good teachers by the droves.

And that means we are left, as a nation, with too many people who have Michael’s view of education.

Sad.

By luvs2teach

September 12, 2006 08:08 PM | Link to this

Michael - thanks for responding - you sound less like a “troll” than your original post.

I’m guessing that you’re not a regular reader of this blog - otherwise you would understand that the comments directed towards you are more in response to a general misunderstanding of the teaching profession than a personal attack. Your comment of “teaching to a book” is a common misperception - any teacher that still does that isn’t doing his/her job (my book doesn’t even cover the curriculum completely).

Teaching “motivated adults who pay to be there” is vastly different than teaching children - I know; I’ve done both. I think you’ll find a much larger percentage of teachers are people for whom the career is a second one - in other words, we’ve been in the “real world” and many of the regular posters have done just that.

We’ve rehashed this “time off versus pay” issue many, many times before. I’m happy with my pay, but I could be making more in a corporate job. Unfortunately, I love to teach, so I’m OK with the sacrifice. Even applying your formula, you will still find that teachers lag behind others with similar education, and if you factor in actual hours worked versus on-the-clock hours, you find more disparity. Of course, everyone’s specific situation is different, but the general trends exist. It certainly has improved in the last ten years or so - ten years ago starting pay for teachers was about $23,000 a year. That’s not a lot - I could make more and work less managing a McDonald’s.

I’ll be the first to admit that the time off seems nice from an outside perspective - I thought just the same thing. But a teacher’s day and year is not the same as a student’s - we work an 8 hour day for 190 days per year - and not every student holiday is a teacher day off. Just like a student has homework, so do we - it’s called grading and planning. And if a parent can’t be reacher during the school day, when do we call them? After hours, of course.

I’m not complaining; I’m explaining - I make it my goal to clarify misperceptions in the profession as often as I can.

By Michael

September 12, 2006 08:51 PM | Link to this

History of the blog notwithstanding, the topic that projects out from the web page is whether teachers should pay federal taxes. And I was suckered in, as was the AJC’s purpose, to follow this red herring down a path evidently strewn with past loathing and recriminations.

“Trolling …” as if this were some semi-private newsgroup or bulletin board. This is just another living example of people who suck on the govt teat who believe they have some private property right or entitlement to public money or public spaces.

By KA

September 12, 2006 09:22 PM | Link to this

IMO teachers need to pay taxes like everyone else, and why should they qualify for extra help with home loans???? Sorry Ronda, teachers are not “more sacred than other workers” Teachers, you should work to revolutionize your industry, instead of seeking a taxpayer handout to supplement puny payscales. I do agree that authority needs to be restored to teachers in their classrooms. So, work together to elect teacher friendly school boards, those who will allow local school and classroom control, student accountability and discipline, and boot your self serving and oppressive institutional minded school administrations.

By luvs2teach

September 13, 2006 09:03 AM | Link to this

Wow, Michael, why the vitriole?

Your comment was “Summers and all school holidays off is not enough incentive? Give me a 10 months a year job, spring breaks, christmas breaks, and teaching to a book any day.”

That, IMHO, is an overly simplistic (and might I add, “ignorant,” view of the profession of teaching. It’s the type of comment a “troll” (as the popular blog term is called) would leave - leave it and run, as it were. It’s the type of comment that I have been seeing on this blog for over a year now, and I’m sick of it.

But you came back, and expressed more thoughtful ideas which is what I commented on. I look at this blog a a form of communication - we are trying to let you out there know what things are like, and I, in turn, get a valuable perspective on what non-teachers are thinking and feeling. I certainly don’t feel like I, or any other blogger, owns this blog (well, maybe Jim d - and he’s not even a teacher! luv ya, jim ;-) ). While it depends on the topic, I would say overrall, it’s a pretty even representation of a variety of people with an interest in public education.

It’s not a private newsgroup and the last comment “This is just another living example of people who suck on the govt teat who believe they have some private property right or entitlement to public money or public spaces” was totally uncalled for. Not only do I pay my income taxes (state and federal) and pay into social security, I own a house in the district I teach in and shop in, so my property taxes and sales taxes go towards my community. I put my money where my mouth is, and I am not alone.

Yes, you were drawn in by the topic of teachers not paying federal taxes, which if you read the blog, most of the teachers on here DON’T agree with, myself included. The blogger’s original topic was, not should teachers pay taxes, but what can we do to draw qualified people to the profession. Since the pay is somewhat lower (yeah, yeah, I know, let’s not go there) than jobs that require comparable education, what can we do to bring the best and brightest to our schools? The time off can be a draw for some (but if that’s all that’s keeping you here, you probably won’t last). So, what else can we offer?

Why isn’t the summers off benefit enough enough to draw you into teaching?

Please come back, and read and comment more - I’m sure you’ll find it eye-opening, and far more inclusive than this particular subject may have made you feel (but beware, we teachers are a prickly bunch when we feel insulted).

Karen, (oops, KA) - the help with the home loans is no different than programs for first time homebuyers - it’s just a draw to bring business to the mortgage company - again, a win-win situation like the loan forgiveness.

I don’t see either of those programs (loan forgiveness/home loan programs) as a handouts. They are tools, and not tools exclusive to teachers - banks offer first time home buyer help to all manners of professions - credit unions are even more flexible. Loan forgiveness is not unique to teaching - the old show Northern Exposure was based on the doctor going to an underserved area of Alaska to get rid of his loans. And I agree that Ronda’s comment about teachers being “more sacred” was a littel silly - I think people who daily put their lives in danger like cops, firefighters, and the military need credit, too. We are entrusted with the care of your children though, and from the way some people post, you’d wonder just why they would do that.

By KA

September 13, 2006 09:50 AM | Link to this

luvs2teach, I am not opposed to school loan forgiveness that is available to many professionals who choose government service or employment in rural or high risk areas. and if mortgage companies choose to give teachers a break, that is their choice. I agree that teachers are underpaid,but you all must work together to improve that. In Georgia you can’t have a union but can you form lobby groups to get your message to the legislators?

By luvs2teach

September 13, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

But I don’t think I’m underpaid - I just think we could improve compensation packages to make teaching a more competitive draw for the best and the brightest.

When I retire I’ll have the time…

By luvs2teach

September 13, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this

I think a better question would be, “Why don’t those that could teach choose not to?”

The answers to that would be eye-opening.

All of you regular bloggers who aren’t teachers - why don’t you teach, or why isn’t teaching a desirable career for you? Would you be happy or dismayed if you child said they wanted to teach - why or why not?

I’m not trying to be smart-alecky - I really want to know. I thought about teaching for a long time, but always talked myself out of it. Now that I’m doing it, my worst day teaching is better than my best day in sales - even if the money isn’t as good. Heaven help me, I love my job, even though it’s not perfect, nor often respected.

Please share your thoughts.

By SET

September 13, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

Rhanda: Remember the book “Animal Farm” which was required reading in high school? Remember the horse who kept saying “I will work harder” everytime the Pigs screwed something up and the farm needed more production? At the end of the story the Horse - who had been promised a nice retirement, etc… was sold to the glue factory.

This is what awaits American workers who knock themselvers out for an employer who is corrupt (or just plain stupid). This is a very old story.

And (primary and secondary) teachers will to some degree be replaced by the internet and software advances. Count on that. To what extent are you teachers and to what extent are you daycare workers already?

Teachers, like all American workers, must keep their skills current and must organize politically if not in a labor union. If you value your safety in this Brave New World you have to be ready, willing and able to change occupations if conditions warrant it. Yes, you have to look out for Number 1.

If and when your “school” begins to resemble Animal Farm, get ready to go.

By KA

September 13, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this

luvs2teach, My background is in biology and when my kids were small and I was a SAHM I gave science lectures to elementary classes on fishes, fossils and social insects. I think I would enjoy teaching. I tutored kids and adult illiterates in reading, and I was a GED examiner. I seriously considered getting a teaching certificate, BUT as I had done a lot of volunteering in the schools, and gotten to know a lot of teachers, I saw that they were oppressed by the school administration, that they were dumped on, and usually had no recourse to right the wrongs. Simply stated I did not choose teaching because of the institutional management rules and policies.

By jim d

September 13, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this

L2T,

Here ya go.

After HS—got married and had two kids (way too young) went to work learned a trade, bought the company, started a second family. (basically had the same job since early 1967)

I also love what I do.

To be quite honest, I think I may be raising an educator now. No problem with that. Just want him to love his job, whatever it may be, as much as I enjoy mine.

Now here’s a question I’d love to know the answer to.

Why do teachers that constantly gripe about students, parents and administrators continue to teach when they are obviously reaping no satisfaction from their jobs?

This is a question that drives me nuts and keeps me up at night, trying to figure out.

Prior to landing this job, I imagine I had a dozen or so jobs, some only took 3-4 hours to figure out it wasn’t what I wanted to spend a lifetime doing, some took a bit longer but never more than a couple of months. So why to teachers that don’t really want to be in a classroom stay?

By IOC

September 13, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this

KA you are still posting during the day…wow great job that let’s you post all day.

By luvs2teach

September 13, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this

Jim d and Karen - thanks! Good answers - Karen, you might want to to reconsider - I think you’ll find that some change can be effected from the inside - at least that’s my philosophy - I can control my little part of the world (and not in a despotic way :-) ).

Jim, I’m sure you’ve heard the old saying “People only change when then pain of changing is less than the pain of staying the same.” I think a lot of people, not just teachers, are stuck in ruts, and don’t know how to get out. They figure they have so much time or money invested in a career that they might as well stick it out - meanwhile playing the lottery every week!

And complaining is our national past time - everyone has something about the job or their life to complain about - it’s why we have the “blogosphere”!

By catlady

September 13, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this

jim d, we stay in spite of, not because. In spite of all the bologna, there is a thrill in seeing students learn and go on to bigger and better.

Also, in my case, I have a hard time letting go of what it used to be like to teach. I keep thinking we can fix these endemic, ever-escalating problems and get back to actually teaching again. Meanwhile, the little victories for individual students keeps me going.

Most teachers I know have a high tolerance for pain.

By KA

September 13, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

IOC, Gosh, I forgot to inform you of my Dr. appt. today. I don’t post from work. Have a nice day.

By OldSchool

September 13, 2006 10:54 AM | Link to this

jim dear, I had to come back from my “mental health” day (actually I’m right here at school on a 2 minute break while the kids start the layout for a new drawing assignment) to answer your question.

Personally, I complain about students out of frustration. Why sign up for an elective you really don’t want? Why be disruptive? Why ignore my explanations and demonstrations on how to correctly use the equipment and produce accurate drawings? Why ask the village idiot (who either slept through the demonstration or wasn’t even present)for advice and then follow it…especially when it is obviously wrong?

Why am I still teaching? Because in every class I still have those students who give me “Eureka!” moments; who want to learn everything I can present; who want more out of life than textbook teachings; who can color outside the lines and create amazing things.

I’m human. I’ll gripe. I’ll weep. I’ll cajole and praise. And I’ll teach.

By catlady

September 13, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this

Oh, and jim, we DO want to be in the classroom instructing, evaluating, and planning. We DON’T want to be : on the phone asking parents to send their child to school, serving on committees to “decide” when the decision has already been made, looking for someone to buy glasses for this child, keeping order while children eat their free breakfast, going to endless meetings, and other forms of running our heads into the wall. The teaching, while it is supposed to be the main work, has been buried under so many other things. And, while more is piled on the top, nothing comes off the bottom?

Many of the elementary teachers in our county are ready to submit our resignations, as a group, because of the situation. That is a very sad commentary, because we don’t have the severity of behavior problems as many other schools do.

Teachers allow themselves to be guilted into all of this because if you don’t, you are not “for” the kids. Sort of like criticizing the government….

By jim d

September 13, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this

Cat and Old teach,

the point i was attempting to make is that perhaps some teachers that really aren’t happy with what they are doing or even those that think they recieve some satisfacation from their jobs, need to do a bit of soul searching and ask themselves why they really remain at their jobs.

Personally, I can’t imagine the drudgery of going to work every day at a job where I felt anything less than 100% full filled doing.

Could be I’m an exception in that I found that job early on in life and it could be that’s why I have such a hard time understanding others that haven’t had that priviledge.

By OldSchool

September 13, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

One other thing, jim dear, I haven’t always taught. I’ve worked for an architect/developer, as a cartographer, as a plant engineer (part-time) and have always done contract and freelance work during the summer and weekends. Some of that contract work was designing small backhoes, front-end loaders and other small earthmoving equipment. That was a very interesting summer. I freelance houseplans and remodel plans for individuals and contractors. Right now I’m working for a former student on some spec houseplans (after school of course.)

I’ve experienced the world of work and try to stay current by visiting/part-timing in area industries.

I have my BS in Industrial Arts and a Masters in Adult & Career Education with additional hours of technical college (AutoCAD and surveying).

By catlady

September 13, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

SET, sometimes I don’t agree with you, but I love your Animal Farm analogy! SET, jim d, L2t, KA, Olschool, 30 year, and others: thank you so much for your valuable perspectives and input! It is wonderful to have thoughtful folks to “talk” with about such important subjects!

By SET

September 13, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

Are secondary teachers able to make the jump to Community Colleges? It seems that the CCs have better pay and working conditions. You can teach high school subjects while being able to eject disruptive or non-performing students.

And the CCs around here have nicer facilities and their own on site police departments. I briefly taught at one on the side - a law class - and I have a lifetime credential in CA whatever that is. To get it, all I had to do was pay a small fee and file my Law School transcripts with the state. The Graduate degree seems to automatically qualify one for the CC credential in your major.

I have friends who are CC teachers - and Secondary teachers in CA. My parents’ and grandparents’ generations had teachers who taught in black colleges and secondary schools prior to migrating to CA. Upon arrival here after WWII they were assigned to (de facto) segregated schools. They’ve all retired or died since and the later generation avoided teaching for Business & Professions.

We have (undergrad/graduate)student interns and law clerks coming through. Working with them keeps us current on student life.

By luvs2teach

September 13, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this

catlady - thank you, ditto, and right back atcha!

By jim d

September 13, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

Thanks Cat,

While I’m confident we won’t always agree (due mostly to my being so opinonated) it is possible that we can agree to disagree at times. Just the fact that we’re here discussing these issues indicates we both care.

By SNY

September 13, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

Luvs,

About your post @ 10:19am today, I announced last week that I would like to get my teaching certificate. I have been on the websites and called the PSC. But I have to tell you, I am completely overwelmed. There is a GACE test in November that I am going to try and take but there is soooo much red tape. I think that there is alot of red tape and I am ex-military!! I didn’t think that there could ever be an institution that had more red tape than them. But, I am not discouraged, I’ll keep going until I get what I want.

By curious

September 13, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

I too am curious on how to become a teacher in GA. I have a BA degree not in education and I went to that site PSC. I am totally confused on what to do. It looks like I have to find a school that will hire me - what is the reality of that and in a good area. I definitely don’t want to be teaching in bad areas

By curious

September 13, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

I too am curious on how to become a teacher in GA. I have a BA degree not in education and I went to that site PSC. I am totally confused on what to do. It looks like I have to find a school that will hire me - what is the reality of that and in a good area. I definitely don’t want to be teaching in bad areas

By Zoe

September 13, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this

Curious- Yes, you do have to find a school system willing to hire you and go through TAPP. And yes, most likely you will be teaching in a bad area. Good school systems have no trouble finding certified teachers. Of course, if you are willing to get certified in Special Ed- that is a different story. There are always SpEd positions, in every school, every system. Don’t be fooled by the media, the teacher shortage is only in high needs school systems and high needs areas like special ed.

By Zoe

September 13, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

JustMe- Caught your reference to “high schools that work.” A similar program was instituted in Clayton County last year. Direct Instruction in elementary schools and Kaplan in the high schools. 75% of Clayton’s teachers have 5 years or less experience and the majority of them are TAPP. You do the math.

By OldSchool

September 13, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this

SNY and curious, are you looking at teaching in an academic area? If you were thinking vocational, you could check with Valdosta State University. They have the best New Teacher Institute program going. Of course, you’d have to be hired first to teach a vocational course (ie: Automotive, Construction, Culinary, Health Occupations, Drafting, Metals, Graphic Arts, etc) but their NTI is really terrific and a degree is not required…expertise in the area is. The degree can come later. NTI is specifically designed to equip folks out of industry to be successful CTAE (Career, Technical, Agriculture Education) instructors.

I have 3 former students of mine now teaching in my department who went this route. They are doing a wonderful job and I’m so proud of them.

By luvs2teach

September 13, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this

SNY - I saw your post and I put some info on it - it’s in the archives (I think you posted under Dekalb’s Consummate Educator). Other people put some good tips down as well - check it out.

You need to either find a school to hire you, and go for alternative certification through TAPP or find a program to go through to become certified and then get hired.

Math is your best option because it’s high demand.

The PSC website is very confusing - I actually did things the wrong way, and it ended up taking more time and costing me more money. This was before they changed over to the non-renewable certificate, though.

If you get hired by a school or go through a college program, they have human resource or placement people that can help you wade through the muck.

By catlady

September 13, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

Re: Zoe’s post. One thing that really worries me is the new teachers we are getting who are coming in to teach under scripted programs, Kaplan, etc., and they think this is how it is, having never gotten to actually teach! Do they wonder about it? Will they stay longer? Colleagues and I were talking about this very thing yesterday.

I recall when I first started teaching many teachers did not retire till 35 or 40 or more years in the classroom. Now, from what I see, at day 190 of 30 years they are gone! Even with 2 months of the school year left. Does anyone else see the same phenomena?

I also wonder about the actual success, as a group, for the TAPP teachers. I have read some general stuff, but anyone know how long they persist; is it comparable to traditionally-trained teachers? How about the test scores of their students (allowing for SES disadvantage)? I wish the best for them, but it is kind of like new parents: you wonder if they have any idea what they are getting into.

By Joy in teaching

September 13, 2006 05:21 PM | Link to this

We had one TAPP teacher at my old school a few of years ago who had been a police officer in NYC on 9/11. After going throught the devastation of that, she decided that her family’s needs would be better served if they not only left NYC but if she sought a different profession as well.

She ended up in special ed, which tends to “eat up” new teachers fairly quicky. She also ended up being absolutely GREAT and went on to win Teacher of the Year after her first year. The kids loved her, her peers loved her, and she enjoyed her job very much.

It’s possible for a TAPP trained teacher to succeed, but it’s rare. It takes a special person who has a serious support system behind them both at home and at school.

Come to think of it, don’t all new teachers need that?

By Lisa B.

September 13, 2006 05:48 PM | Link to this

SNY and Curious,

Perhaps good schools in the Metro area are experiencing no teacher shortage, but in rural areas of Georgia, schools scramble yearly to fill teaching slots in ALL level of academic areas. In July one school in my district was still beating the streets to find Pre-K and Kindergarden teachers. PE, music and art teachers are not in high demand.

By Students of 30 Year Teacher

September 13, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

Honest Abe:

We are in Mrs. S’s AP class and often read this blog. We aould like an explanation of your critcism about starting a sentence with “I teach in FL”. We have looked in three grammar books available in our classrooms and cannot find anything to justify your comment.

By the way, her AP class has the reputation of being one of the best in the county because her students always pass the national AP test in the spring.

We would appreciate your addressing our question as we really want to learn and understand this criticism. Thank you for your time.

By JustMe

September 13, 2006 06:30 PM | Link to this

I came from a 12 year professional job from Fortune 500 companys into teaching. I have been teaching for 5 years.

There are many paths that one can take to get into the teaching profession. Many colleges with education departments offer programs that allow you to “fill in the gaps” of your degree with courses and such to become certified. For example, GA State offers a program called TEEMS. There is also a TEEMS program after dark at GA State if you wish to continue working and also work towards certification. I am aware that other colleges in the metro area offer similar programs. After completing this type of program (and all of its requirements), the college goes directly to the PSC to get you your certification.

If you are lucky to find a school system that offers professional development that leads to certification, then this is the least expensive route to take for you. However, these are usually reserved for teaching certificates in the “high need” category such as high school math or high school science. They will not do this for elementary education certification. If you get into a program such as this, you can begin teaching immediately under a provisional certificate from the PSC while working toward a full certification. Usually, only very large school systems can afford to do this such as APS. After you complete their program, they go directly to the PSC to get you your full certification.

As others have mentioned, it is basically impossible for an individual to go directly to the PSC (in person, via internet, or phone call) to become certified, for whatever reason.

Finally, I want to clarify a comment made by another poster. College teachers do not make more money than fully certified high school teachers. Especially in community colleges, the professors are frequently paid a flat fee per course that they teach. A friend of mine teaches a course at Perimeter College and gets paid around $2,500 for one semester for one course. Full time instructors at GA State make less salary than public school teachers with 10 years of experience. Professors at GA Tech suppliment their salary with grants and research dollars - but their strict salary is not really much different from professors at GA State.

Hope this helps!

By curious

September 13, 2006 06:33 PM | Link to this

Ok so the TAPP program is a bust. Thanks for saving me time and money Zoe. I definitely do not want to teach in bad or rural areas.

By 30 year teacher

September 13, 2006 06:48 PM | Link to this

Honest Abe

I have just read my students’ blog addressing your comment. Apparently we need to work on “reading for detail” as they did not notice you were addressing Just Me and took your answer as criticism of my writing.

We are still at school as we man the concession stand for Thursday night JV football games. These are awfully good kids and they enjoy reading Get Schooled. Makes for great classroom discussions and some interesting writing assignments.

My apologies for their jumping the gun. Need to get out to the field as they are required to have a faculty member present in the concession stand.