Get Schooled

By SET

September 11, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this

Now here is a great subject. The schools don’t want these lost boys (most of them are male?) because they are disruptive and special needs kids. So they often don’t chase after the kids or their parent - I don’t have a problem with that. They are more trouble than the Average Daily Attendance money they represent. So let them go (as far as the public schools are concerned).

What should society as a whole do about the lost boys (and to a lesser extent, lost girls?). Intern them. Draft them. Identify them earlier and remove them from their families into institutions. Will this happen? No it won’t. Society treats these kids much as stray dogs - except we don’t even bother to set a dogcatcher on them. I think we should put them in the pound along with the stray dogs and deal with them. At least it would keep them from reproducing.

By EW

September 11, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this

Set,

I’m truly surprised by your comments, we have to try to do something or we might not pay now - but we will pay later when they are caught up in the justice system. I’m sure you encounter these people in your profession, I would rather pay to try to put them on the right track then to pay for them to be incarcerated for life..

By SNY

September 11, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

SET,

Locking these kids up and throwing away the key does nothing to help these kids. If we are going to take them away from their families, we need to have some sort of program for them to go into. They are not stupid, just misguided and need a little help. I’m not saying coddle them, just give them a little push in the right direction. If they don’t take the hint with the push, then leave them to fend for themselves.

By jim d

September 11, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this

SET

The average prison inmate: 1. is functionally illiterate 2. probably learning disabled 3. never had a steady job 4. was a juvenile delinquent 5. abused substances 6. came from a dysfunctional home with a history of abuse 7. has not gone beyond the 10th grade, and 8. has an average IQ one standard deviation below the mean.

Fifteen percent of prison inmates score below 75 on the Wechsler Scale of Adult Intelligence (Revised), indicating a substantially higher than average rate of mental retardation; and 70% have no skill or trade education.

While there is no disputing these facts, please explain why it is that not even 1/2 of HS drop outs end up incarcerated?

By Janine

September 11, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

I was wondering when a student skipping school stopped being a problem for the parents and became a another problem for the school to solve. I know that in the end, society will pay big time if something isn’t done, so it feels like something should be done. There are some places where parents are arrested if their child is caught skipping a certain number of times…that may be the solution. Usually, when something becomes an problem/inconvenience for the parent, he/she will find the solution.

By Joy in teaching

September 11, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

I think we as a society need to re-think how we structure schools. The school structure that we have now is not the cure-all of society’s ills. We have kids who have serious psychological problems or criminal histories sitting in a desk beside sweet little kids who actually want to learn. Forcing those kids to sit in the current structure that we have in schools helps no body and hurts the educational opportunities of other students.

RANT WARNING:

This is hitting home today. Here in my building we have a special ed student who is autistic, brilliant, and who is not being served in a self contained class due to the request of the parent. There isn’t a day that goes by that she is not removed from class for pitching a tempter tantrum, throwing books, etc. Actually, make that several times a day. Each time this poor child acts out, the rest of the class is subjected to the disturbances, whether it be during instruction or testing. The child has an adult whose sole paycheck comes from tending to this one child.

I really feel sorry for this child. I really do. My prayers go out to her parents for the struggles that they go through.

But, DAMMIT!

Is it fair for the rest of the class to have their education hindered by having to cater to this child? NO!

By Janine

September 11, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

so jimd that 70% who have no skill or trade education brings us back to a previous issue : Why don’t they? Why is it that students with those limitations that you mention, are not offered a path that will lead to productivity instead of prison?

By jim d

September 11, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

While you’re at it SET please explain how you’d justify locking up the 60 or so percent of HS dropouts that never commit a crime.

By V for Vendetta

September 11, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

I understand the implications on me as a tax payer later on in life when these kids end up in jail or on wellfare… but. .

My view is this: if by the age of 14 it has not been made abundantly clear to a child that education is important and/or the value of school is not realized by that child, then he/she is a waste of space. Trust me. I had a converstation today with my technical students about the future, and what it holds for kids who drop out of school. Most of the converstational threads ended in jail. Still, even though it was made clear as crystal to them that without at least completing high school they had almost no chance in life, they chose to laugh it off and talk about how “stupid” school is.

I cant care about blatant idiocy. I say put them to work. Undercut illegal immigrants by rounding up skippers and making them dig ditches or pick up garbage for free. Work them like the dogs they are. Make them BEG to come back to school. Maybe then they will get it through their thick skulls…

By Do the right thing

September 11, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this

I assume you, as a concerned parent, called the school to let them know what you saw. Tucker High School is situated in a great community and has relied heavily on that community to help “police” the area. The efforts that Tucker High School has in place to keep these students on campus are caring teachers and a challenging curriculum. Some students just don’t want to bother and are often supported in their deviant behavior by their parents. We as a society have to come up with a solution to the attitude of “school is not that important.” Suspending them and putting them in a trailor by themselves is not the best answer. DeKalb County has many alternatives to the traditional educational setting that would suit these truants - their parents must agree to them first.

By Do the right thing

September 11, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this

I assume you, as a concerned parent, called the school to let them know what you saw. Tucker High School is situated in a great community and has relied heavily on that community to help “police” the area. The efforts that Tucker High School has in place to keep these students on campus are caring teachers and a challenging curriculum. Some students just don’t want to bother and are often supported in their deviant behavior by their parents. We as a society have to come up with a solution to the attitude of “school is not that important.” Suspending them and putting them in a trailor by themselves is not the best answer. DeKalb County has many alternatives to the traditional educational setting that would suit these truants - their parents must agree to them first.

By jim d

September 11, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

Why not provide mentoring to these kids into a trade? The one thing that even every dropout understands in MONEY.And the one thing that learning a trade will teach them is that they could go further with a diploma.

If they don’t want to do this then leave them to their vices, wherever they may lead them.

By jim d

September 11, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this

Actually janine, it’s like leading a horse to water.

Oddly enough they drink when they’re thirsty and something like 40% of the people in prison that don’t have a HS. diploma, go back and earn it while in prison.

By TinaTeach

September 11, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this

Not sure but I was told that in Ohio truancy laws are tough, on the parents and not the kids! If the student is missing from school for a certain amount of time (adding up to a number of school days) then the parents can be fined or arrested if the absences are unexcused! Really drives home that parent responsibility thing. Shame though that Ohio had to come to that.

By BlindHomer

September 11, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

No. Remember the recent article that said 6% of the kids are afraid to go to school? The first responsiblity of the school, truant officers and society as a whole is to protect those that care and do try from the criminals and behavior problems. These children need to be left behind. If they can’t make minimum 8th grade CRCT competencies in at least 3 of the 5 subject areas THEY SHOULDN’T BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE ON TO TRADITIONAL HIGH SCHOOLS.

By SET

September 11, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

I forget if I mentioned this before - I have periodically been a guest speaker at the local jail’s “adult school” program. While I have toured CA state prisons over the years I haven’t visited one in recent years. I am familiar with the statistics and the inmates because of working with their cases and reading their files.

People in jail and prison are not there at all because of a lack of high school classes or graduation. The vast majority of inmates (at least in CA) have mental problems or personality disorders that lead to their institutionalization. Jail and prison is just another psych hospital. You can be evil, and criminal, without actually living in a prison. (Run for office??)

The reason they are “inpatient” is that they got caught - because they are unable to manage their behavior to avoid doing wrong in the first place, they get themselves caught (impulsivity?) in the second place and they mismanage their criminal cases also (too narcissistic).

It doesn’t happen often but I have seen people turn down a Misdemeanor plea bargain offer, go to trial and get 25 to life on a 3 strike case. 3 different judges tried to talk sense into them before the trial started. See, we are trying to contain the damage and they are busy singing “I gotta be me”.

Many of these mental problems are congenital and some of them are acquired. Victims have psych issues also, especially serial victims.

These problems seem to be well established during puberty and interfere with a normal high school experience. (Anti-Social personality disorder, Morbid Substance dependency, for example)

High Schools are in no position to manage some of these kids. They need to be inpatient at a home for wayward boys and girls.

Back to the jail school - when the “students” are inpatient and kept away from their favorite dope & playmates for awhile, you can sometimes get them to have some insight as to why they are inpatient and their cousins (who may be more lucky in the genetics dept) are not. Usually their jail terms are so short there is not enough time to really work with them. The program tries to get them reading enough material to get a clue.

The best way to deal with these people is inpatient. It’s not that I want to intern all the loser children of the state. It’s just that as long as they can do whatever they want you can’t get any work done.

By SNY

September 11, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

V,

I think that you are DEAD wrong for calling these children, because that is what they are, dogs. I’m sure that your vocabulary is much better than that. It is teachers like you that run these kids off in the first place. Take a look in the mirror and start with yourself. That comment about the kids being dogs shows us more about you than it does them. Think about it.

By SET

September 11, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

Jim D: The reason why so many drop outs don’t get incarcerated is that many people have people in their lives - siblings, lovers, parents, dog - that can stabilize them. Some don’t or are too far gone (violent, etc) to be stabilized.

Some die early so they don’t go to prison. Others burn out the worst of their behavior and stabilize on their own, and maybe find an occupation that keeps them out of trouble.

I know several Adult Children of Alcoholics - they (sometimes) are over achievers but have serious problems that emerge later in life. They don’t get incarcerated but they aren’t happy campers either. Some of out problem children have issues that become inflamed only at different stages of life. (Like a Bi-Polar disorder that is latent in the earlier stages of life yet becomes life threatening after age 30.)

Back on topic, I don’t think all public schools have reason to chase after disturbed children and force them back into school. They are often more trouble than they’re worth in ADA, and there’s no budget to properly handle them. The schools have to concentrate on what they can handle and not dissipate themselves with Linda Blair in The Excorcist.

By Nja

September 11, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

Wow @ some of the comments.

Interesting topic.

I’m wondering how much is expected of the school? And I am sure this varies from school to school and district to district- but from my experiences most places are now starting to bring charges against the parent if the child does not attend school regularly. The parents that I have encountered do not like this at all! They are literally dragging their children to school.

This leads to another problem, the students who are sitting in school because they “have” to, the ones who are buying their time until they can legally drop out. What I have found is with most of these children the parents really don’t care if they drop out, they just don’t want to break the law and be penalized. If the home environment doesn’t place importance on education, what are schools supposed to do with students who are just sitting around?

Then these students sit around and disrupt class. If they disrupt enough they get sent to the alternative school or DJJ for a short period of time then they come back to school. It is a sad and crazy cycle. You would be amazed how many students are falling through the cracks. And guess where a great number of drop outs occur?? MIDDLE SCHOOL!!

By John

September 11, 2006 04:23 PM | Link to this

Until we eliminate the home schooling loophole, the truancy problem will get worse. There are a few dedicated parents who truly teach their kids at home. However, the vast majority are parents who don’t want to take the effort to get their kids up, fed and out of the house in the morning. They let them wander the streets or play in the neighborhood all day. Officers then can’t make the distinction between truants and those who are out for a legitimate purpose. Georgia needs to require every child from 6 to 18 to be in a legitimate, recognized, accrdited school—public, private or parochial—every day, all day with no exceptions.

By SET

September 11, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

SNY: I took Cultural Anthropology at UC Berkeley. Don’t know why - I was a business major. It was a breath requirement. We studied dog behavior as well as other animals. And we studied primitive human behavior. Everything we observed there appeared in high school behaviors…

I have no problem comparing human (child & teenager) behavior to a pack of labradors. If the shoe fits…

Then there’s the Lion King story. I think of it every time a see a case where Mommy’s new boyfriend murders her child(ren). Lions do that.

By MrLiberty

September 11, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

Mandatory attendance laws are just another in a long list of problems with the government school system.

Everyone complains about the problem kids and how much they destroy the learning environment for everyone else, then you all turn around and get upset when these disinterested kids don’t want to come to class.

Rejoice in their absence. If every kid agreed to stay home, then maybe real education could happen.

By Patti Ghezzi

September 11, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

Hmmmm… I have to say, John, I never encountered a “fake homeschooler” when reporting my truancy story. All of the kids the police picked up on the streets while I was riding along were registered at a school, and their guardians were under the general impression that they were in school. (Though said guardians, often grandmothers, typically did not seem too interested when informed the kids were skipping school.)

I am not saying that there aren’t a few fake homeschoolers out there. That is, parents who claim to be teaching their children at home when really they are not. But I don’t think it’s accurate to characterize the “vast majority” of homeschooling parents as not wanting to make the effort to get their kids to school. Isn’t it easier to get kids to school than to have to deal with them all day?

By jim d

September 11, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

Glad you kinda brought that one up Patti.

Statistically, the one thing missing most in kids lifes that have dropped out of school and been locked up is a father figure.

Imagine that!!! I believe it was something like 60%.

By em

September 11, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

Let me get this straight … force a child who does not want to be at school in the first place to attend. Place this child in a classroom of thirty or so other children where the child can become such a chronic disruption no one in the class learns. Now let’s add to the mix ineffective parenting and an administration that refuses to back a teacher up when it comes to discipline. It never ceases to amaze me how public education ideals continue to sacrifice the majority for the one. By the way, I just described my school year last year and the student in question was a third year freshman!

By MMM

September 11, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this

Last week, I had a couple of teenagers come by my house asking for work clearing the yard. They were clearly high school age immigrants-african and middle eastern, I believe. I asked them why they weren’t in school, and they said that they did a home study program so they had some flexibility in when they studied. They were very polite, and the schools around here are horrid with kids that are non-native speakers of English.

I couldn’t tell if this was an intelligent way of learning at their own pase without dropping the child into the thug culture in our resident traditional school, or truents trying to make a buck. Opinions anyone? Do you know of any packaged material popular with refugees in Clarkston?

By SET

September 11, 2006 05:07 PM | Link to this

Jim D: On the father figure thing… When I’m working a mental health case - or a revolving door criminal case - I look at the family tree. As far up and out as you go you have “missing” or premature death/incarcerated relatives.

One of the possible reasons Mommy or Daddy is missing is that they had a mental disorder - one of the ones the causes a patient to abandon it’s child. Psychopathy in either males or females is one disorder that will do this. Inherited substance dependance is another.

The Drs I work with believe psychopathy is a highly inheirited disorder. My point is that the child may not be disfunctional because the parent is absent. The child is disfunctional because of inheirited mental illness which also existed in the disfunctional/dead/jailed parent(s).

Oh, these disorders appear in differenct races and ethnicities with different frequencies. People are not created equal, they are different.

By Taxpayer

September 11, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this

I’m with Do the Right Thing. If you see kids that you suspect are skipping, you really should call the school or the county office. When a couple of girls from the high school in my DeKalb neighborhood decided to take a “personal day” by wandering around my neighborhood, I called the school and the police. The high school’s resource officer and the police were there in minutes, and the girls were taken away by the resource officer.

Take action. Don’t turn your back and then bemoan the problem.

By Taxpayer

September 11, 2006 05:14 PM | Link to this

WARNING: REPLY TO RANT BY JOY IN TEACHING

JIT, we faced a similar situation in our neighborhood school, only the kid was physically violent AND disruptive. It took parents complaining about the situation to get anything done, as none of the administrators nor the poor teacher could override the parent’s wishes. If you can find just ONE fed-up parent, you might be able to get him/her to rally the others. The situation isn’t fair to anyone, especially the poor kid.

By JustMe

September 11, 2006 05:16 PM | Link to this

The issue is so much bigger….

The US is the only Country that insists upon educating all citizens through a “high school” level. No other Country attempts this.

I feel that we are foolish. In an attempt to accomplish this feat, we are hindering the true student. I am calling the “true student” the one that wants to learn and is also capable of learning. The others are not “true students” and seem to absorb the vast majority of resources (including teacher time) away from the true students.

Should we kick them out into the street? Heck no! This is not what I am saying. However, we should find another path that is more likely to lead to success for them….. some examples might be vocational school, trade school, and so on.

These kids that are determined to not learn (or worse) can be given these other options. They should not be allowed wander our streets and/or learn criminal activity.

However, IMHO, the bottom line is - if GA has a truency law, then by golly we should enforce it and jail the parents!

By Meg

September 11, 2006 06:27 PM | Link to this

If anyone wants to interfere with my right to homeschool, I’ll see them in court. We’ve had enough civil liberties taken away on the premise that “someone, somewhere, might theoretically abuse them.” That was the kind of post you’d expect from one of the brainwashed, public school masses. Each of my school age kids has their own laptop and thousands of dollars worth of curriculum. They work hard all day, except for an hour’s recess at the park. I’ll match them against the kids of the ignorant poster who questioned home school kids, any day. That is why I don’t want MY kids in public school, falling for the “Let’s get rid of everyone’s freedom” party line.

By luvs2teach

September 11, 2006 06:48 PM | Link to this

Meg - you won’t find this public school teacher intefering with your right to home school - I think the trend towards homeschooling, magnet schools, and charter schools is a good one. People are finally realizing that a one-size-fits-all model isn’t right for everyone - particularly the very bright, or very challenged.

We need tech training; we need vocation ed; we need internships and apprenticeships. We need to get these kids connecting the world of learning with the world of work in a meaningful way. We need to enable those who are college bound to be challenged at a level that will prepare them for college. We need those that really want to work (and they’re there, in schools, stuck learning about Shakespeare when they want nothing more than to get to an engine and tear it apart) learn skills that will get them good jobs - electrician, plumber, carpenter, mechanic (jobs that can’t go overseas, BTW).

Parents, talk to your kids - if they are having issues learning becuase of one student like the situation above, holler! While teachers’ hands are often tied, the powers that be often respond to a parent’s complaints.

By KA

September 12, 2006 08:28 AM | Link to this

luvs2teach, Amen. The best thing that could happen to education in Georgia is the implementation of learning tracks that would serve the interests and develop the talents of ALL of our students. We have AP, gifted, and honors classes for the students who are already performing at a high level, and are college bound. But for the kids from the poorest neighborhoods first we need a different set of classes to teach them the rules for success, and how to learn to earn. Offer high school education until the kids are eighteen, tops. It is not productive to have twenty year olds in high school! Finally, get rid of the college prep label, and give real world career options in vo-tech, business skills, medical field assistants, the arts, computers, construction, electrical, etc. A college degree is not required for these jobs, and one size education does not fit all. Even Wal-mart has learned that lesson and will be tailoring their stores to the different demographics by area.

By nel

September 12, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this

luvs2teach..you are so right and I know this is a solution you often repeat. “In the old days” there were apprenticeships, etc for those who didn’t want to stay in school until 18. We are doing society a disservice in handling so called education this way. There is a woeful lack of medical personnel in this country at the moment and there aren’t enough programs for those who want to go into this field….We are going further and further up the creek. The talk about the lack of skilled labor but the state education authorities fail to realize that you need to teach some of these kids some type of WORTHWHILE skill. They aren’t all stupid but many are conditioned to believe they are smarter than the average person who does go to school and have a job. Easy money is never truly come by easily.

By Ernest

September 12, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

luv2teach said, People are finally realizing that a one-size-fits-all model isn’t right for everyone, which I agree with. The next question is what price are we willing to pay to have more choice programs in our school districts?

At the DeKalb School Board meeting last night, a board member raised a question as to why some children were being picked up as early as 5:15 am. To me the answer was obvious, that family ‘chose’ a school out of their district thus the consequences were an early pick-up. What obligation do stakeholders have in providing ‘door to door’ transportation for ‘choices’ families make regarding the school their child attends?

Seguing back to Patti’s question, the community has an obligation to work with schools and law enforcement with regards to truants. There has to be greater accountability on the guardians. More school choice options are needed, expecially for those not planning going to college immediately after HS.

By OldSchool

September 12, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

There are real world options in the schools already: CTAE courses, Youth Apprenticeships, Tech Prep Articulation with technical colleges, etc. What’s not there is funding for bringing those heavy shops up to date and keeping all CTAE programs current.

I wonder how many academic teachers are really aware of what we CTAE instructors are accomplishing in our labs everyday. I venture to guess there are many students staying in school simply because we exist and relate to them in real world terms.

By luvs2teach

September 12, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

OldSchool - I KNOW there are kids who only stay in school because of programs like yours - and they usually do well once they get out in the real world - better often than some college prep kids who have no real-world practical job experience! We need more funding for programs like that that keep kids in school, teach them productive skills, and help them be successful.

We had a vocational high school where I grew up. It had programs in cosmetology, culinary arts, graphic design, plumbing, electricity, and auto mechanics among others. It also boasted the best graduation rate of the five feeder high schools and its graduates usually were more successful career-wise.

We do our kids a disservice by not recognizing other options.

By nel

September 12, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this

The comments here repeatedly about alternative education for some children is wonderful but since I have lived in here, I have never seen any educators heavily lobbying at the State Capital. I drive by there every day and see just about everyone else pushing their causes. Have I missed this? The TV stations would love that type of display and it would definitely get the point out to a much broader audience that typically gets way too much filtered information anyway. Sometimes you have to take risks for what you believe in.

By Lisa B.

September 12, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

My school system has really cracked down on absenteeism. When students acquire a certain number of unexcused absences (which includes school suspensions)the parents are referred to the court system. When our local judge began sentencing parents to weekend jail two years ago, school attendance improved drastically! Because school suspensions are also unexcused, parents have far more incentive to make sure their children follow school rules. We still have a core group of disruptive kids, but those children who are borderline behavior problems often decide to straighten up when the parents realize their children’s suspensions result in parental jail time. I hope we keep this policy in place. This is year three, and I see a big difference in attendance and school discipline.

By V for Vendetta

September 12, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

Um, sorry SNY, but as SET said: if the shoe fits…

When these kids act like animals (mostly because some of them were raised no better than animals) then they should be treated as such. If treating them harshly is the only way they will learn, then we must use the harshest methods possible. Some of these kids will wise up, some wont. To me it is fairly simple. School on any level is the difference between living on a park bench somewhere, and having a decent life. Even a high school diploma can get your foot in the door at many jobs. Like I said before, if by age fourteen these kids are still too stupid to realize that, well then they must be made to understand somehow. I think working them like farm animals would be an excellent way to show them what life without education is like.

By JustMe

September 12, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

nel,

You do not see teachers lobbying because the State of GA legally prohibits teacher unions. Teachers are not allowed to form real unions that have real clout and power to make a difference.

The closest thing that teachers have in GA are “clubs” or “organizations” that have no clout and no bite (see PAGE, for example).

I wish that teachers in GA did have a real union so that we could stand a chance at making real progress/changes in the State’s educational system. However, teachers are doomed to be nothing but worker bees that simply do the best we can in a system that is defined by and run by politicans (not by educators/teachers).

The politicans will never change the law to allow real teacher unions because then they would lose the ability to use education as a political tool to get votes. In the meantime, our students are the ones that suffer.

By nel

September 12, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

JustMe, I understand that but couldn’t this be along the lines of “concerned citizens”? I know when we were fighting to keep the foreign language programs in our elementary schools, we got pretty good turnout at the Capital. I guess the parents who truly want changes in schools need to spearhead this. I also realize the in the communities that need these types of programs the most, the PTAs main functions seem to be the wrapping fundraiser every year, plus they can’t even get the parents to show up for meetings. Sad really because they can make a difference but they themselves don’t quite “get it” and understand that people who are elected sit up and take notice when they see their gigs in jeopardy.

By JustMe

September 12, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

Lisa B.

Bravo for the Judges actions. Is your school in GA?

I ask because Judges are becoming more and more elected and less appointed. The elected ones are afraid to make parents mad because the Judges need the votes.

I prefer for our Judges to be appointed so that they can do the right thing without fear of losing votes.

By jim d

September 12, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

Reading this blog would lead one to believe no one here ever cut a class or skipped a day of school. That the teachers here would never use a sick day without being sick and that parents are the devil.

Way to go guys I really needed a laugh today. THANKS and may you all HAGD.

By jim d

September 12, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

Patti,

Teacher Sick days blog??

By JustMe

September 12, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this

jim d…

I do not understand your postings. If you call in sick at work, do you “make mischief?” I hope not. Are there jim d sexual preditors out there? Doubt it.

You are (I hope) an adult. You should be wiser to the world compared to a school aged child. Students skipping school is not at all similar by any stretch of the imagination to an adult falsely calling in sick.

Why do you post such nonsense?

By V for Vendetta

September 12, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

JustMe,

Chill for a sec, Jim is just making a point. I think it is slightly off base though. When I was in school, I never skipped. I couldn’t. I participated in athletics outside of school, and I used up any excused days going to athletic events out of town. Also, I maintained a 3.5 GPA all through high school. Sure, I did my fair share of mischief outside of school, but it was the kind of things kids with 3.5 GPA’s or higher did (roll friends houses, write in chalk on their driveways, fork their yard, etc.).

I think these kids who skip school are not taking part in such harmless pursuits. They are vandalizing property, taking part in violent crimes, stealing, or god forbid, hurting other people. That’s why those kids must be met with such harsh punishments.

(And yes I realize that rolling a house is vandalizing it under the definition of the word, but come on… )

By luvs2teach

September 12, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this

jim d - just what are you expecting to read and post on a “teacher sick day” blog?

I know there are teachers that are out more than they should be - I have worked with some, and they make our job harder. But I saw the same thing in the business world.

And, while I doubt you’ll believe me, I will say that I have never called in sick without being sick (or having a doctor’s appointment). I used to work for a company that rewarded you financially for each year you went without using sick days (not vacation days) and I earned that bonus every year I worked there.

My one time trying to skip I got caught - maybe that has something to do with it!

By jim d

September 12, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this

The Devil makes me do it.

By SET

September 12, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this

Patti: How about a blog re: Teachers and Schools talking to students about occupations? - Steering a student towards or away from certain occupations and related coursework and programs?

By jim d

September 12, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

L2T,

Now there’s a heck of an idea!!!

Reward students that have perfect attendance, with being released a week early for summer break. I LIKE IT!! I like it lots!!

By OldSchool

September 12, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this

This teacher has been known to take a “mental health” day. I’m rapidly getting to the point where I’ll need to do just that.

My students have evidently decided I do not know what I’m talking about (geometric constructions in drafting) and have started listening to one of their classmates. Trouble is, this guy has no idea what he is doing and thus they all are headed down the garden path and everyone’s work is suffering.

You non-teacher folks have NO idea how frustrating it can be to teach, reteach, and RETEACH the same basic stuff ad nauseum only to find the students still don’t care enough to remember any of it. What a waste of time and paper!

By jim d

September 12, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

Just me,

Wow.

“If you call in sick at work, do you “make mischief?”

I’m too old for mischief

“Are there jim d sexual preditors out there?”

I’m young enough to wish there were

You are (I hope) an adult.

Juries still out on that one

You should be wiser to the world compared to a school aged child.

I don’t know. I know some pretty street smart kids

“Students skipping school is not at all similar by any stretch of the imagination to an adult falsely calling in sick.”

Excuse me! please explain what you see as the differences.

Why do you post such nonsense?

Like I said—it’s the devil in me

By jim d

September 12, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this

Old Teach,

Just a thought, but why not just work on the one student everyone wants to listen to? I’d think he could make your job much easier.

Sorry, I’m a non-teacher.

By SNY

September 12, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

V,

So what you are saying is that it is okay for a student with a 3.5 GPA to vandalize a house because those students hardly get in trouble. But it is wrong for a student with a 1.9 or 2.0 to vandalize a house. Why is that? Is it because you want to feel better than those BAD students? The bottom line is wrong is wrong. No matter what the GPA of the child doing it. You were wrong and should have gotten in trouble. BTW, no I never did any of those things but I did skip school quite often. It was boring and I had better things to do (like hang out with my boyfriend). I still graduated with honors and attended college and joined the military. All in that order. Now, not every child that skips school is going to turn out terrible. As with the case of V., every person who turned out okay does have some skeletons in their closets.

By jim d

September 12, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

Old Teach,

Ever consider taking the one student, everyone wants to listen to, aside and explaining how much you appreciate his efforts and encourage him to come to you so that he gets it right when sharing with his classmates?

I know, I know— non-educator thing again. But it certainly appears to me to be a golden opportunity to create an interest in teaching in a young man that may one day be able to point to you and say, “Old teach was the one that created my desire to be an educator.”

Give it consideration.

By jim d

September 12, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this

SNY, Me too. Used to skip all the time. What cured me was a heart to heart, in my Jr. year, with the principal when he picked me up hitch hiking away from the school and returned me school.

I never cut again.

By jim d

September 12, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this

Just a personal observation;

But it sure appears that as highly educated as some teachers are they just never grasp the concept that children will learn more from their peers than from a teacher.

By jim d

September 12, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

SNY,

No I think V was saying it was alright because of being an athlete. And we ALL know athletes don’t do wrong. (grin)

By SET

September 12, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this

V: One other thing that children do when skipping school is engage in casual unprotected sex.

By Nja

September 12, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this

When I was in high school, I skipped and cut class. AND I had my moms permission (most of the time). As long as I didn’t have any tests or presentations on that day-it was fine. I was an honor student, a cheerleader, on the track team and a member of several organizations. In fact each school even had designated cut days (Senior cut day, etc.) where we would go and have a bbq or have parties. It was fun and I can’t recall anyone dropping out. However, There is a big difference between cutting or skipping school once in a blue moon vs. attending school once every two weeks.

By Nja

September 12, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

In quite a few schools the students have sex in school! In the bathroom, on the bus, under the bleachers, the one staircase that is rarely used. And actually they have been doing it for years. It happens in most districts- it’s just kept hush-hush.

By V for Vendetta

September 12, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

Lol Jim, how did I know that was coming? :-)

SNY- are you seriously trying to tell me that rolling a house is a big deal? What I meant was, my definition (as a good kid, with a good GPA, and good parents) of vandalism was a lot different than some of my more uneducated and rough around the edges peers (burning things, spray paiting a house, egging, etc.). If you want to call those actions of mine “skeletons”, be my guest. I consider that harmless fun. To me, anything that can be picked up by hand is more of a silly prank than outright vandalism.

Besides, I never skipped school to do any of this, it was just for the sake of example. I never once skipped high school and received an “unexcused”. And when I played sick for athletics, I always made up my work the day I got back. Because athletes never do anything wrong! :-) Eh, Jim?

By jim d

September 12, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this

SET,

They Do?

Got news for ya sweetie (non-condescending) they are doing it at school, in school and on school time as well.

By jim d

September 12, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

Hey V,

You’re the one that brought it up. :-)

By OldSchool

September 12, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

jim dear, I have taken that one kid aside so many times, he thinks I’m his momma! He just doesn’t get it and he’s still willing to share…a deadly combination.

Kids don’t want to “figure things out” for themselves. They want the easy way and are not willing to try something for themselves.

Another today scenario: After explaining (again!) the importance of accuracy and using the equipment properly to produce an accurate drawing, I watch 3 students in one class try to complete their drawing without even securing the paper to the tables OR using the $800 drafting machine mounted on their tables. They “freehanded” the work…even when I quietly pointed out to each student the correct method and encouraged them to use the equipment. Even when some of my advanced drafters tried to show them the right method, they insisted on carrying on. I suppose that getting finished fast is the goal…not having an accurate/correct drawing.

I have no clue as to why they even signed up for my class.

By The Gift

September 12, 2006 03:26 PM | Link to this

Patti, Can you please start a blog about attracting quality teachers in the classroom? My suggestions - 1)Teachers shouldn’t have to pay FEDERAL TAXES. 2)A FEDERAL LOAN FORGIVENESS PROGRAM that will be used to pay off student loan debt. 3)Give Teachers More AUTHORITY IN TODAY’S CURRICULUM. (Teachers know what works) 4)Abolish the UNIONS and Offer Bonuses to Teachers who Increase students scores in the classroom. 5)Create a Partnership that Teaches are able to get LOANS FOR HOMES.

By The Gift

September 12, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this

Patti, Can you please start a blog about attracting quality teachers in the classroom? My suggestions - 1)Teachers shouldn’t have to pay FEDERAL TAXES. 2)A FEDERAL LOAN FORGIVENESS PROGRAM that will be used to pay off student loan debt. 3)Give Teachers More AUTHORITY IN TODAY’S CURRICULUM. (Teachers know what works) 4)Abolish the UNIONS and Offer Bonuses to Teachers who Increase students scores in the classroom. 5)Create a Partnership that Teaches are able to get LOANS FOR HOMES.

By The Gift

September 12, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

Patti, Can you please start a blog about attracting quality teachers in the classroom? My suggestions - 1)Teachers shouldn’t have to pay FEDERAL TAXES. 2)A FEDERAL LOAN FORGIVENESS PROGRAM that will be used to pay off student loan debt. 3)Give Teachers More AUTHORITY IN TODAY’S CURRICULUM. (Teachers know what works) 4)Abolish the UNIONS and Offer Bonuses to Teachers who Increase students scores in the classroom. 5)Create a Partnership that Teaches are able to get LOANS FOR HOMES.

By The Gift

September 12, 2006 03:35 PM | Link to this

Patti, Can you please start a blog about attracting quality teachers in the classroom? My suggestions - 1)Teachers shouldn’t have to pay FEDERAL TAXES. 2)A FEDERAL LOAN FORGIVENESS PROGRAM that will be used to pay off student loan debt. 3)Give Teachers More AUTHORITY IN TODAY’S CURRICULUM. (Teachers know what works) 4)Abolish the UNIONS and Offer Bonuses to Teachers who Increase students scores in the classroom. 5)Create a Partnership that Teaches are able to get LOANS FOR HOMES. 6)Starting Pay will begin at $45,000 7) Raises will be solely based on Performance 8)If a teacher doesn’t increase scores within 2 years. - they will be terminated.

By SET

September 12, 2006 03:46 PM | Link to this

Nja: Maybe the places you describe are “schools” in name only. Especially interesting is the covering up of the problem. I suppose the next thing we’d have to do is install a city (not school district) police substation on the “school” grounds… So that the asylum staff at the institution would lose their ability to do cover ups.

On the other hand, maybe all this is evolution in action.

By Joy in teaching

September 12, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

Um…Gift?

Your first two suggestions are rather nice. However, some of them need to be rethought:

3) Give teachers more authority in today’s curriculum Honestly? Given the intelligence level and common sense I’ve seen in some of my collegues, that isn’t such a great idea.

4) Abolish the UNIONS and offer bonuses to teachers who increase student’s scores in the classroom. Georgia does not have teacher unions. There are three teacher organizations, not unions. There is a difference. Also, when you suggest offering bonuses for helping to increase student scores, are you suggesting that teachers keep their classes for two years so as to actually compare scores of the same students? One of the many problems with AYP is that scores of one group of children are unilaterally compared with scores of a different group of children in a different school year. Rather like comparing apples to oranges.

5) Create a partnership that teachers are able to get loans for homes. I believe those are called banks. Or even credit unions that offer low interest loans. They already exist.

7) Raises will be solely based on Performance To whose performance are you referring? The teachers or the students they are teaching? If you are referring to their students, are you suggesting that teachers keep their classes for two years so as to actually compare scores of the same students?

8)If a teacher doesn’t increase scores within 2 years. - they will be terminated. It sounds to me as if you are putting a lot of pressure on first year teachers. Also consider my points in # 5 & # 7.

By The Gift

September 12, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

Patti, Can you please start a blog about attracting quality teachers in the classroom? My suggestions - 1)Teachers shouldn’t have to pay FEDERAL TAXES. 2)A FEDERAL LOAN FORGIVENESS PROGRAM that will be used to pay off student loan debt. 3)Give Teachers More AUTHORITY IN TODAY’S CURRICULUM. (Teachers know what works) 4)Abolish the UNIONS and Offer Bonuses to Teachers who Increase students scores in the classroom. 5)Create a Partnership that Teachers are able to get LOANS FOR HOMES. 6) Starting salary at $45,000 7) Performance Based Compensation (Bonus) 9)Authority to get rid of troublemakers in the classroom

ANY SUGGESTIONS MY FELLOW BLOGGERS

By SET

September 12, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

Joy: I agree that you can’t easily “tie wages to performance (of the students)”. We’ve had that controversy discussed in Pasadena CA when a teacher there noticed that the incoming students (stacked over several upcoming years) were blacker that before - thus a statistical certainty that performance would be falling. He wrote a memo to the other teachers with the demographic studies and pointed out that new plans to tie wages to “performance” actually amounted to a pay cut for the teachers. Of course the politically correct had a nervous breakdown and tried to fire him for telling the truth. It al would up in the newspapers and on the internet.

Tying wages to performance would largely lead to teachers chasing the white students around - especially in a demographically changing district. You could create a complicated system of discounting black students to get teachers to agree to take them… Kind of like 3/5ths of a citizen…

Anyway you see the problem.

By jim d

September 12, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

Old school,

If what your students is after is speed rather than accuracy, might I suggest a fast “F”. Eventually they’ll get the message. Or, are you at one of those schools more concerned in self esteem that won’t allow you to fail a student?

By OldSchool

September 12, 2006 05:31 PM | Link to this

jim d (although I do like the “dear”) years ago we were told not to crush the child’s self-esteem. If they were going to fail anyway, we were “encouraged” to give them a 68…something they could bring up to passing (70).

Well, these kids have self-esteem out the wazoo! I’m convinced the inmates are running the jail.

So I content myself to redline their drawings and smile when I hand them back. Doesn’t bother the darlings at all.

By JustMe

September 12, 2006 05:42 PM | Link to this

jim d

Your posting show that you obviously have never taught school a day in your life, professionally. Yet, it is amazing how you have so many answers to problems in a classroom.

Have you ever practiced medicine in your life, professionally? Would you claim to have the cures to all illnesses?

Why is it so many non-professionals claim to have the answers? I am not only calling out certain posters here, but politicans and others as well. It is really amazing!

By jim d

September 13, 2006 08:03 AM | Link to this

Just me,

Ahhh, the old doctor / teacher analogy. God, I just love that one, don’t you?

Look at it this way though.

One need not hold a doctorate in proctology to recognize an anus.

Oh, and I’m not calling out all teachers—just those narrow, closed minded ones that feel if you aren’t a teacher you shouldn’t comment on the profession, that the consumer isn’t smart enough to understand what it is they are buying or intelligent enough to recognize a quality product.

Now which of our bloggers does that description fit?

Have a nice day. :-)

By catlady

September 13, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

At my daughter’s high school in Athens, they had a name for the kids who did not go to class—parking lot kids.

We educators do everything immaginable to keep kids in school, instead of realizing our job is to TEACH THE ONES THAT COME. Society (and we ourselves sometimes) have a hard time separating things that are MY PROBLEM/RESPONSIBILITY from those that are NOT. Whatever the problem, drop it on the schools (and, frequently, the teachers) to solve. And we keep taking it on.

By jim d

September 13, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

Set, RE: your first post on this blog.

I went home last night and made myself smarter. As I was setting there “thinking” it occured to me that getting rid of the dreggs would improve education in accordance with the “Buffalo Theory”

You do recall this theory from the “Cheers” series don’t you? In one episode of “Cheers”, Cliff is seated at the bar describing his “Buffalo Theory” to his drinking pal, Norm. It goes something like this; “Well you see, Norm, it’s like this; a herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and the weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive intake of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers.”

God, can you imagine how smart the remaining kids would become by simply ridding ourselves of the weak ones?

By SET

September 13, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this

Jim D: Maybe you think I’m suggesting getting rid of the dregs as in shooting them or putting them to sleep or something like that. Far from it. I believe that “the dregs” as you call them should never be allowed to set foot in a normal academic high school. But I do believe they can to a large degree still be productive members of society on some level if they are controlled enough to stop early onset of substence dependency and made to learn a trade - either ditch digging or skilled trades, their choice.

The men who built Hoover Dam were not choir boys - they were in many cases single young men (>30) separated from their families living in huge work camps. This country can use a lot of public works projects and it can use widespread use of teenaged boys in the trades. And I wonder if the US isn’t actually planning to reinstate the draft.

Anyway, We need to get people with IQs of 85 to 100 out of the high schools and into the workforce with continuing education closely tied to work. Nothing good is coming by forcing these men to sit still in a classroom at age 16, 17 & 18 and pretend to do classwork they aren’t reasonably cabable of doing. If they show up at all.