Get Schooled

By JustMe

September 8, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this

Oh, come on! Most kids in high school know if they want to go to college and are ready. They do not need some test to tell them that their high school gpa is 1.7 and they are not college ready.

Most smaller community colleges in GA do not require an SAT score or ACT score for admissions. And, these are the ones that the types of students mentioned are more likely to attend first, anyway, right? So then, why would a student like that want to pay money to take a useless test?

School’s are doing the right thing by recommending those types of students to not bother with the SAT. Why make the student feel even worse?

It is ridiculous for our society to set expectations that EVERYONE MUST go to college. I know cabinet makers, electricans, and so on, that never attended one day of college and make darn good money in a great career. If this is what a high school student wants to do, why should anyone steer them away from it?

By Ernest

September 8, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

Interesting point raised by the professor. If the SAT is used as an assessment by many students at a school, it could skew the overall score for that school. Maybe that’s why some school did not provide their code for students in this category so as not to impact their overall score. Knowing most people may interpret the results incorrectly, this may have been a good strategy. How can one evaluate how college bound students at a school performed on the SAT if the data is not disaggregated? It also depends on what one wants to measure.

It would be interesting to see SAT scores reported by grade level for each school (I’m sure most schools already get this). Each school could then evaluate the preparedness of the percentage of seniors that actually went to college versus those who did not. Again, not a perfect measure but something to look at. They could also use the data for the underclassmen to either provide ‘targeted instructional assistance’ or advisement regarding other career options.

By Spanky

September 8, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this

Guidance counselors should do everything they can to determine what the STUDENT seriously wants for post secondary. Then they should push the student in that direction. Should the student pick an unrealistic goal then maybe the guidance counselor can make recommendations. And if the student doesn’t know then again the counselor can help with recommendations.

BOTTOM LINE:JustMe stated it corrrectly. The SAT is supposed to measure college success, not current achievement level. Nothing more.

By Spanky

September 8, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this

Earnest sounds like a man asking to be part of my school’s SIP data team.

Very sound idea. Could generate a ton of useful, actionable information for the school.

By OldSchool

September 8, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

It is, in my opinion, absolutely NOT wrong to discuss all post-secondary options with students. I think it does them a disservice to focus only on traditional colleges and universities.

Too many students do not have a clear career goal and know only that they “are going to college.” Fewer still have any idea what they will be studying and actually plan a high school course of study that will truly serve them well in college.

Our area technical college offers an Educator Academy each summer and encourages academic teachers to attend. They tour area industries, take parts of the tech college admissions test (there’s an eyeopener!) and learn firsthand about wonderful careers that don’t require a university degree. Most are surprised to learn the high level of skill and knowledge those careers demand.

We CTAE instructors try to talk with each of our students and let them know they have other options…many that pay quite well. We encourage those with only a vague notion of what they want to do with their lives to give Tech College a try. It’s cheaper than “finding themselves” at a 4 year college and doesn’t take the SAT to get in.

By Dragonlady

September 8, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

At a system where I used to teach, the SAT became a racial thing. The teachers knew that there were students taking the test because parents had urged them to, having a false sense of reality about college, while the teachers knew the kids didn’t stand a chance (one boy was proud of his score of 200, not understanding you get 200 for putting your name on the answer sheet—he had in effect missed every question).

If the teachers or the counselors recommended or suggested (or any other language you want to use) that students such as this boy not take the test, the teachers/counselors were accused by the NAACP of being racists. In the community there was such a hue and cry over what they deemed “discriminatory practices,” that such recommendations were made to disappear. Consequently, the scores of such students as the aforementioned boy were averaged in with everyone else’s. A few of those will bring the school’s average down real quick.

This is why it is not fair, it is not right, it is just plain stupid to compare SAT scores from state to state and from school to school. Yet we continue to do this. The media and the politicians jump on SAT scores as the final judgment of what is happening in our schools. All we teachers can do is just shake our heads. Some students—probably the majority of students—are not going to college and shouldn’t.

Sorry. But this is my soapbox. I get pretty worked up over this subject. :-)

By Janine

September 8, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this

I totally agree with the entire article by Prof. Breault…. especially the following, which may come as an epiphany for some, but which has been discussed on this blog before and in teachers’lounges everywhere: “An effective high school education does not aim to produce engineers or even college graduates. It aims to produce citizens who have a broad range of knowledge, who have been exposed to a variety of educational experiences, and who have been able to develop their potential to be engineers, go to college, enter a trade, write a novel, create works of art and make wise life choices.**”

By catlady

September 8, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this

Since high school grades are supposed to be a better predictor of success in college, I would love to see a study done on if this is as true in Georgia as it is in other places. Many think Georgia students are “victims” of rampant grade inflation due to HOPE. So, are their (higher) grades as good a predictor of college success as, say our friends in another, non-HOPE type state?

By SET

September 8, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this

I’m black - in case anybody doesn’t know already. I’ve been amused in the past by white reactions when I’ve observed a particular (black) student is in no way, shape or form is college material. They’re shocked, shocked! that anyone can tell a black student to forget about college - at least for the moment - and work on plan B.

Well if you are reading at 6th grade level upon High School graduation - yes, college is not for you. And if you are reading at 8th grade level you shouldn’t try to go to University of California even if they would let you in on an (now illegal) Affirmative Action admit.

But you weren’t supposed to ever tell the black students that because it wasn’t nice or racist or something. Well I did tell them (I was interviewing students for a Rotary Scholarship). I specifically suggested Remedial Ed. at the local Jr. College. As well as expressing to them regret they didn’t go to a better high school that would have told them the truth and offered better counseling while they were failing to learn to read.

“Disadvantaged” my rear. The ESL students we were interviewing had better reading and math levels. No one had ever told the (these particular) black students that they were failing and couldn’t expect to magically function as “college” students. There might have been a few who were ready. Many of the ones the school set forth to us were not. I was the only black on the interview panel. The others wanted to praise everyone for nothing.

Anybody ever hear Millie Jackson’s version of Conley’s “Rose Colored Glasses”?

Brave New World.

By BlindHomer

September 8, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this

Good point catlady, that’s why so many Hope recipients lose the Hope or flunk out altogether after a year or so. We’ve beaten this to death. SAT scores aren’t comparable state-to-state. And they may not be the greatest measure of a school’s effectiveness. But the entire body of evidence, SAT scores, NAEP, etc. indicate that at a minimum Georgia doesn’t do as well as many other states preparing its students to take these tests! And while the professor’s conclusion may be valid, his arguments are weak. The ‘liquid measure’ analogy is very poor, and his liberal bias interferes with his logic. He equates high SAT scores with affluence-driven better schools but not intelligence? And in the same argument then says the SAT scores are not an indication of school effectiveness?Forget the SAT, compare those same two groups on a standardized IQ test and see how they come out. Smarter, more driven people make more money, live in ‘better’ ZIP codes, and score higher on the SAT. What a surprise.

By Ernest

September 8, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this

SET, as always, good point and well said. Many seem to put more into the ‘self esteem’ of a student rather than their academic ability. IMO, the fallacy is there is not a measure for someone’s desire, drive, or fight when their back is against the wall. It is good you provide those ‘reality checks’ to those you encounter but deep down aren’t many of us ‘wimps’ in not waiting to tell the truth? Aren’t we afraid that based on our judgment, a ‘diamond in the rough’ could emerge from what seems to be a lump of coal on the surface?

I’m sure in CA there are many colleges with lower entrance barriers than others. After someone from Stanford or Berkley along with someone from one of ‘those’ schools get their paper and work for 10-15 years, does anyone care about the name of the college/university where they got their degree from? Might it be true that all that someone cares is that they have that piece of paper that says they finished?

Like someone I know says, to make more paper you need more paper. Could that be what many are pushing some students to do, simply begin acquiring paper?

Just pondering…..

By Janine

September 8, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

Hello Set..I couldn’t have said it better myself….However, in our system today, a teacher always needs to C.O.A.!!!! if he/she doesn’t want to find him/herself in court. I taught in middle school where we had teaching teams usually of mixed race. On our team, we always had a group discussion before a parent conference. The science teacher was black and she always reminded us to let her relate anything negative to the parents of our black students, and we were relieved and grateful to her for that. It was quite difficult for a white teacher to do that without being called racist….and, I hasten to add, that black teachers were often called racist also, by both white and black parents… There were many, however, who did just what you suggested :they made excuses for the student and found some way to make the message positive …and great cost to the student’s future.

By Nja

September 8, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

I’m going to make this brief because it’s Friday and I’m ready to begin my weekend. I am a school counselor. And I’m black. If a student is not interested in a 4 year college - I do not recommend the SAT. Regardless of whether the student is Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, etc. I discuss future plans with the parent and the student - if it’s not necessary for the student to take the SAT, I don’t encourage it. Not because I don’t think they will do well just because it does not coincide with their future plans at that point.

By SET

September 8, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

I wasn’t trying to say that students shouldn’t reach - quite the contrary. Good teachers are often pushing students towards the next level. I just want people to open their eyes and smell the toast burning.

For example, I recently told a subordinate co-worker that her Jr. college student daughter is staying too long (1 year+) at the pizza parlor job. Of course they got defensive - “I like my job!!!”. What was the career goal? Psychology. Guess what, the local juvenile hall is hiring (continuously) part time temps for juvie staff (nights and weekends) and the daughter has just the required number of college credits. Plus she is statuesque - we’ll send her to the interview looking like Mama Morton. The job requires charting the behavior of the child (age 10 and up) inmates - dealing with the special flags, headbangers, whatever. It pays double per hr what the Pizza joint does and it will look great on a resume for a psych program. She has applied online and we’re waiting for an interview.

But they resisted the whole idea of leaving that nice comfortable pizza parlor job until they re-read the job description and pay and realized that she really did meet the requirement and the duties tie into her career interests.

Left to their own devices many kids won’t learn vocab words, read a book, learn how to walk and talk and dress, or get out of food service. The high school kids I was talking about in the previous post at least had the whatever to put themselves through the scholarship interviews and write an essay. If they had had a no-nonsense teacher and counselor (not to mention parent) on their case in grades 8-11 they would have presented better (maybe a teacher allowed to assign more than 10 vocab words a week).

Maybe brighter students can find their own way. But a good teacher with a free hand can improve any student if they get to them in time.

By jim d

September 8, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this

SET,

You know you’re right.

I know a lot of kids, Jr.s and Sr.s that really don’t have a clue. But then I also know a few doctors and lawyers that entered college in the same condition.

I think encouraging students that are capable of doing college level work to pursue it, isn’t necessarilly a bad thing. I’ve several friends that didn’t decide a major until well into their college careers. I think where most schools mess up is in pushing students that direction that don’t stand a snowballs chance in hell of ever completing.

By Ernest

September 8, 2006 05:23 PM | Link to this

I will attempt to stay on topic and directly answer Patti’s question :). I believe counselors have an obligation to assess what a student brings to the table (i.e. past academic record, standardized test scores such as SAT, etc.) and present the options available. I believe they should encourage students to take the SAT based on their past performance. I also believe they should honestly discuss concerns they may have regarding a student doing well on the SAT. They should not discourage the student from taking it but recommend SAT prep and other resources that could help that student succeed. Of course, the counselor should document EVERYTHING.

Unfortunately, I’m not sure if many of our HS counselors have the time (based on the size of the school) to provide this type of assistance.

SET, again I like your approach. Some people ‘Can’t handle the truth’. That does not mean you shouldn’t tell the truth.

By SET

September 8, 2006 05:27 PM | Link to this

Jim D: I agree - the trick is to push them into the best thing available that they do have a reasonable chance of getting. The pay scales here in CA for certain trades and blue collar jobs are great - for example I know a Smog Check Technician who was trained a few years ago through an Alcohol/Drug rehab program grant. He makes over $40+k a year as a Smog Check Tech (I had no idea that paid so well). 6 month training program was all it took. Now he can pay for his (antipsychotics!) psych meds.

Meanwhile some people are at min wage at a pizza parlor with entirely too much time on their hands.

The difference here between making it or not often includes having somebody who is smarter and more connected pushing someone into a good program. Sometimes it’s a parent, sometimes a teacher, sometimes a probation officer.

It helps if the students is motivated by not having a free comfortable crash pad at Mommy’s place. I know several of those who you can’t do anything with because they are too comfortable to try anything new.

By KA

September 11, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this

Patti’s question, Should counselors steer kids, or not, to take the SAT? Dr. Breault answered that question in his article: “An effective high school education does not aim to produce engineers or even college graduates. It aims to produce citizens who have a broad range of knowledge, who have been exposed to a variety of educational experiences, and who have been able to develop their potential to be engineers, go to college, enter a trade, write a novel, create works of art and make wise life choices.” IMO counselors are NOT the gatekeepers for education, the school admininstrators are. The students should be informed and counseled from the first day of high school about the requirements and preparation for the path they want to follow beyond high school, whether to college, to trade school, or to the unskilled workforce. Only the students who are preparing for college, and who have adequately prepared should be taking the SAT. The school superintendents are responsible for creating clear paths for performance and achievement for all students, not just the college bound. The question should be, why aren’t they serving all the students?

By jim d

September 11, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

Actually SET its not the schools place to push the students in any direction.

I think that’s a major problem with our educational system today. Schools have taken it upon themselves to be character builders, care takers, and even fill what they perceive as parental needs of our children regardless of if we are doing the job ourselves. They have not learned to differentiate or to understand what a child’s needs are. They assume all children are being neglected.

The real sad part of all this is that WE have allowed this to happen. We have in a lot of instances given the state authority because its easy. We need to stop looking for the easy way out, reassume our god given responsibility of raising our children and demand the state (read schools) stop interfering.

JMHO.

By KA

September 11, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

jim d, High schools are a microcosm of society, and are tasked with preparing the students for successful transition to the next step in their lives. The schools do stand in the place of the parents, and we task them to teach academics AND to model and require proper social behavior. We want them to bring the slackers and laggers into the academic and acceptable civil discourse line with the other students. If you disagree with what they are doing you can speak up, try to change them, or remove your child to a private school or homeschool. IMO, the schools are not interfering, they are reinforcing what we parents are teaching at home. Our messages may differ, and we can talk about that at home, but that is real life beyond school, different and mixed messages. High School is the right time to expose the kids to as many viewpoints and discussions as possible. Then at home the parents can put that information into a context that is coherent with their values.

By SET

September 11, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this

Jim D: Power abhors a vacumn. If and when the parents are absent - or not heard from - the schools does what it can to keep the kid on track.

That means that a directionless child can and should be given suggestion from a teacher or counselor. At least that’s my take on things. The teacher or counselor have to give a damn first and they may have other things to do. That’s the breaks. A wealthy school without extreme time pressure on staff can afford to work on student placement. Ghetto schools may be more busy on violence and vandalism issues - People have it their way by seeking out a school in touch with their needs. Even if they do so by inaction.

I’m not arguing either approach is more moral that the other. Nowadays I stand back silently while I watch people destroy themselves. When I was younger it pleased me to try to “save” people who were strangers. Is one way better then the other? I think it is a personal choice. Not a moral imperative. You have a duty to assist people with whom you have a relationship or contract with - while that relationship or contract is running. You owe nothing to others. I believe the relationship between student and school includes the school doing what it can, when it can to promote the student - whether the student enjoys the experience or not.

By teach overseas

September 11, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this

JimD-

Schools have not taken on this additional responsibilities for the jollies or because teachers are on some sort of power trip. We have taken on these responsibilties because so many parents send their offspring to school without even the slightest thought as to what will happen to them. You take care of your children—- great- but don’t think for a minute that there are not thousands of children who walk though the doors of Georgia’s schools everyday who are tired, hungry, need eyeglasses, dental care, immunizations, school supplies, medicine, clothing, shoes, a decent place to sleep, lunch money, an adult authority figure who will teach anger management, sharing, taking turns, impulse control, or just someone who will turn off the TV or take the slightest interest in their life and future. And all these kids land in our classrooms and we are told to teach them regardless of who they are and how they come to school. So yes, JimD- schools and teachers do take on more and more responsibility as more parents advocate theirs. We would be delighted if parents did their job and rest assured, we would not be wasting our time “interferring”

By nel

September 11, 2006 12:01 PM | Link to this

I recall two guys who were nice as can be and made it through high school based on the fact that they were respectful, cute and like by their teachers. Neither could read particularly well, and neither completed junior college. They were both pushed to take the SAT and told up front you got 200 point for just putting your name, but be careful with the questions because you lost points for wrong answers. With that information, they went into the SAT with the intention of only putting their names and not attempting the questions for fear of losing points. What a complete waste of money their parents didn’t already have. Not once were parent or student advised on a career path that didn’t entail traditional college. One of them was a wonderful artist but told the couldn’t make money at it. Lack of vision on the part of the Counselors because that was what he was best at and that talent could have been challenged in a way that could have supported him well in life. I don’t think the majority of counselors have the time to truly connect with these students and guide them in the way SET laid out earlier. This should really begin in Middle School I think to give them more time to get their heads around their future.

By luvs2teach

September 11, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this

And Jim D - trust me, we don’t want to take on these roles, but society has forced them upon us by placing the blame for every societal ill at the school doorstep.

We are the politician’s easy target.

“And why don’t the schools do more?” is the rallying cry.

By jim d

September 11, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

I’m afraid you have jumped the gun a bit folks.

I’m not talking about what the schools feel is their responsibility but more so of what those responsibilities Should be

Granted the roles have changed in the direction of education in this country since the first public schools were founded, ( Great read here http://www.commonsenseforpubliceducation.org/common-sense-book.pdf ), but the point I’m making is two fold. 1) that we have allowed it to happen and 2) the system needs to learn to back off on parents that are doing a just dandy job.

Unlike a few bloggers here I honestly believe that Most parents are capable of doing many of the things that schools have taken upon themselves. Such as making the choices as to if their children are college material or not. Let’s face it, while most parents want to think they’re children are capable of college work the reality sets in rather quickly, and who loses? The student? no, they’ve had a great time partying. The Counslor? well duh. How about the parent thats footing the bills? BINGO.

I look at it rather simply; As long as I’m willing to pay and my kid can cut the work, it is not anyone elses business, especially that of some idiot, that can’t even get a real job, school counslor.

But then again thats jmho.

By jim d

September 11, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

Exactly what degree in Psycho babble is required to be a school counselor?

http://catalog.unco.edu/2006-07HTML/2006-2007-11-26.html

What a load of monkey excretement!

By SET

September 11, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

I apologize for the grammer/spelling - I’m type on the run here.

By JustMe

September 11, 2006 12:58 PM | Link to this

jim d

I hate, hate, that you take a cheap shot at the job of school counselor. Done properly, it is an important job that requires a great deal of training.

Also, your line of reasoning is one reason that we are in this mess! Thinking that “as long as I pay for it, why cannot my kid go to college” is a stupid perspective. College is/was/should never intended for the wealthy only. It should be for those students that:

Being able to pay for college, IMHO, should not be a part of either of those mentioned items. This is why I admire Duke University for offering a full scholarship to any student qualified to enter their University. And, by the way, it is Duke that makes the determination of whether the person is qualified to enter their college, not mommy and daddy.

It is perspectives such as yours that allows low quality colleges to thrive. They are nothing more than the 13th, 14th, etc. grades that teaches students nothing and takes the money of parents, hapless students, and the HOPE scholarship fund.

Don’t you think that the hiring companys know the difference between these types of institutions? Of course they do! This is why a student from Duke will command a much much greater salary and will be offered multiple jobs upon graduation. The student from the other type of college will likely graduate with a useless piece of paper/degree, make minimum wage, and have a life of school loan debt to pay off.

So, can your kid “cut the work” at the pitiful college? Yes…… so have fun paying for your kid to attend a useless college.

By Nja

September 11, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

Hmm, as a school counselor I guess I should be offended by jimd’s comments. However, I am not. Everyone has these ideas of what schools should be like, of what this persons job description should consist of, etc., etc. - easier said than done. I challenge you all to look at some of the student/counselor ratios. Counselors do a number of things in addition to the college preparations- let’s not forget how much time is spent on actual counseling. I can’t tell you the number of students that come into my office each day with some type of serious issue going on at home. I would love to give the task of college preparation to parents but you are obviously wearing rose colored glasses because most of the time the parents either don’t know what’s going on or feel it is the schools responsibility to handle the college admissions portion and they will handle the financial piece.

Too many individuals think because they have money they are entitled to certain things. Justme you are correct- college admissions should not be about money but tell that to the rich folks!

By jim d

September 11, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this

You assume too much, jm

pitiful college? Ga.Tech, UT knoxville, UGA, FSU, Rutgers? I wouldn’t put these in that catagory

What part of “and my kid can cut the work” didn’t they teach you to understand in college?

Oh and BTW. Another reason that “we are in this mess” is because some of you fine folks think you should be able to dictate to the rest of us.

By jim d

September 11, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

NJA,

I’m glad you didn’t take offense.

We all form and hold our opinions based on our life expierences. Such have been mine.

I didn’t mean to infer all counselors were idiots. Only those I’ve met.

By SNY

September 11, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this

I have to admit that I agree with most of what Jim D. has said. The counselor and the schools are starting to get beside themselves with what is their business and what isn’t. Perfect example, saying grace. Every child should be permitted to say their grace. Out loud. I could care less if my daughter saying her grace out loud offends someone. There are plenty of things said in school that offend my child and she is told to look past it. If she has to look past other kids cussing, why don’t they have to look past her saying her grace. It is not your job, as techers, counselors or administrators to undermine my authority. I have spent years instilling a love of the Lord in my child and none of you have the right to take that from her. But you tried. You didn’t succeed but you did try. That is some of what Jim D. is talking about. Let me be my child’s mother. You be her teacher.

By jim d

September 11, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

Nja,

“let’s not forget how much time is spent on actual counseling. I can’t tell you the number of students that come into my office each day with some type of serious issue going on at home.”

Just out of curiosity are most school counselors licensed to provide this type of psychological analysis and provide help?

By SNY

September 11, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

I have to admit that I agree with most of what Jim D. has said. The counselor and the schools are starting to get beside themselves with what is their business and what isn’t. Perfect example, saying grace. Every child should be permitted to say their grace. Out loud. I could care less if my daughter saying her grace out loud offends someone. There are plenty of things said in school that offend my child and she is told to look past it. If she has to look past other kids cussing, why don’t they have to look past her saying her grace. It is not your job, as techers, counselors or administrators to undermine my authority. I have spent years instilling a love of the Lord in my child and none of you have the right to take that from her. But you tried. You didn’t succeed but you did try. That is some of what Jim D. is talking about. Let me be my child’s mother. You be her teacher.

By jim d

September 11, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

SNY,

WROOONG!!

Your child may say her blessing aloud over his/her meals. If your child is being denied this by the school I highly recommend you locate an attorney.

SET, you want this case?

By SNY

September 11, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this

Sorry for the double post. I promises I only submitted it once.

By SNY

September 11, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

Jim D.,

Don’t worry, they definately felt my wrath that day. But as you know, I don’t have to worry about that anymore. We are back in private school and loving it. It’s like SET says, “change your surroundings or your school.” I did just that! Going to pick up my little one now. School is over and she has to go to the sitter until I get off. Be back in 15 minutes.

By SET

September 11, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this

Are the schools fighting kids over saying grace at lunch? Haven’t heard that one.

By Nja

September 11, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

Jim D- First of all there is a difference between counseling and psychological analysis/assessments. Yes, most school counselors are trained and educated to provide actual counseling services. And some, like myself have taken the additional required coursework and passed the examination to even have an independent practice (why yes, we push more than just college applications and standardized test scores). It’s amazing how little people know about the school counseling field. In addition, you really should check where your school counselor was educated because many programs are not clinical in nature- they just teach counselors the paperwork side and many programs are not accredited. There are several school counselors who are counseling psychologists or have their LPC. I could really write an essay for you about the varying qualifications. However, we are on the internet, the world is at our fingertips. Oh yeah- requirements for school counselors vary from state to state.

SET- I haven’t heard that one either but of course things vary from school to school and person to person. I’m not sure what that has to do with school counselors as a whole.

Lastly, if I ran into a horrible accountant I would not say all accountants are horrible. Nor would I say this about principals, doctors or bus drivers. The generalizations that I see on this board (regardless of the topic) are very scary.

By SET

September 11, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

Nja: I haven’t seen anything that scary here. Start watching the HBO series “The Wire”. They are incorporating high school into the series (set in the Baltimore MD ghetto). Their portrayal of life in Baltimore is horrifying. It makes the city look like the streets of South Africa and that’s pretty bad.

The generalizations you speak of are our collective experiences. How can that be bad? I think it’s a great thing to read these blogs. The postings I don’t agree with are the most interesting.

By Jeff

September 11, 2006 05:36 PM | Link to this

My $.02, take it for what its worth:

Those who are saying that school counselors (or anyone else for that matter) are actively trying to steer your child in the wrong direction and/ or “out to get them”:

You give us educators WAYYYYY too much credit (or is it not enough??). You think we have time to actively plot against YOUR child… or even any particular group? PLEASE!!!!! I’m too worried about paying my bills, doing a good job by MY standards, and surviving the day… much like anyone else out there.

I work in a VASTLY majority black school, even ride with one of my black female coworkers - who works DIRECTLY with me. We got talking about 9/11 this morning and she made the comment that Bush hasn’t done anything for the black community. I made a comment that Jom and SET would probably be proud of: It is NOT HIS JOB to help the black community. His job is to help AMERICANS, plain and simple. And even at that, his job is only to create the conditions so that Americans can work hard and make do on their own. She went into saying how much racism exists these days, and I made a similar point to that I just made, and that I have said here before: White people really couldn’t care less about trying to hold the black man down. We’re too worried with working hard ourselves! If the black man would quit worrying about how the “white man is out to get” him and START worrying about working his @ss off, he would see a VAST improvement in his condition….

By Jeff

September 11, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

Just wanted to apologize for the rant there guys… LONG day at the office! :)

By SET

September 11, 2006 06:01 PM | Link to this

Jeff: I didn’t consider that a rant anyway.

Sometimes I wish I was a school superintendent for a year or two just to iron out some of these goofy people.

By Jeff

September 11, 2006 06:28 PM | Link to this

I made my “weapon” speech to my low group today:

I am a white male, trained at one of the best schools in this state (for EDUC types as well as my actual degree). I have worked - while in the EDUC classes - at some of the richest and best schools in this state. My leadership training was working in some of the most exclusive circles IN THE COUNTRY. You say you want to be the best. Yet you see me as the enemy. What you need to realize is that I wouldn’t be working here, in a 90% black and 98% poor school, if I was truly the enemy. I wouldn’t be caught DEAD here if I was the enemy. In fact, I’m one of your best allies and most powerful weapons. We share a common goal: proving the rich white snobs in metro ATL DEAD WRONG. Now, you can keep talking in class and not doing your work, and you will fail. You will fail both in reaching your goal and in my class. Or you can choose to listen to me. Give me the benefit of the doubt, even when you think I’m wrong. DO YOUR WORK. And work your tails off. We can pull this off. But you’ve got to decide what you want.

By luvs2teach

September 11, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

I think the skipping post is a direct corallary to this one - kids are skipping because they are not interested in what we’re selling - and what we’re selling is an unrealistic dream of a college education for everybody.

Not everybody want to, needs to, or is cut out to go to college!

My younger sister is a perfect example - she went through the “business track” back when there was such a thing. She learned typing, dictation, and shorthand (timeframe - early 80s). She got her first job right out of high school, and for many, many years made more than me, as I struggled through college, and my early years of work and teaching. She was also not saddled with student loans! She bought a car and a house before I did. It was a perfect option for her.

I, on the other hand, would have been miserable had I not gone to college, but even though I wanted to go, I screwed up the first time out and it took a stinit in the miliatry to get me back on track. I was not mature enough!

I don’t advocate telling a children that s/he can’t do something, but I also don’t advocate pushing a child in a direction that they are clearly not interested in nor suited for!

We need more real world applicable learning situation for students.

SNY - your child should not have been told that they couln’t say grace, however, that’s not the school’s fault. It’s the fault of every lawsuit brought about that makes us feel we are walking on eggshells - someone was probably just playing CYA.

Schools are a microcosm of society - the problems you see we bring upon ourselves.

By SET

September 11, 2006 06:49 PM | Link to this

Jeff: Keep posting. I’m looking forward to hearing about what happens in your classes. It sounds like you are an idealist - which means you are probably heading for trouble. Either way it will be interesting.

I can’t figure out what I’d do if I were teaching an inner city classroom. Somehow I’d have to motivate the students while also changing the behavior that got in the way of progress. I’d have to pull this off without expecting much support from administration and parents (if they had their act together the students wouldn’t need a lot of help - and we wouldn’t be talking about basics such as turning in work).

And in a public school you don’t pick your students and vice versa. So keep us posted. The racial interplay is always interesting. All I can contribute is don’t feel sorry for anybody unless they’re a cancer patient. And don’t let them feel sorry for themselves.