Get Schooled

By jim d

September 5, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

Sure is Patti,

The message is loud and clear, one that educators and parents alike have known for years but is no longer politically correct to advocate.

Grouping students by ability works

BTW, glad to see you returned safely.

By lynn d

September 5, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

Patti

Any idea what Richmond County is spending on that school? The magnet programs in DeKalb cost about $6 million for about 5000 students. This is above and beyond state funding.

Just wondering — their program sounds expensive.

By OldSchool

September 5, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

I’d be interested in the rules governing admission to the school. If rules are broken, are the kids sent back to the school they would normally attend? That would be sufficient to keep me “engaged.”

Evidently it is education and not football that is the primary focus. That alone could make a huge difference in achievement.

By jim d

September 5, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

Actually Lynn,

I believe you’ll find the cost per student at a magnet school are generally less than the national average in a regular school.

One of the key factors in this is that magnets are generally set up for students of a specific abillity. Thus these schools don’t generally provide services for children with special needs.

By Patti Ghezzi

September 5, 2006 03:25 PM | Link to this

OldSchool, kids can be sent back to their local schools if they misbehave. But this hardly ever happens. The school attract kids who want to be there and don’t want to get kicked out. Also, the only sports they have are swimming and golf as well as some intramurals and a community rowing program. So, yes, football is out of the equation.

The thing is, sports can and should be a motivator, right? It does seem that football is more of a distraction at many schools…

By Oldteach

September 5, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this

Let’s see… the only way a kid gets into a magnet school is to show abilities and interest in that subject matter.

We shouldn’t be surprised when they’re not bored.

I agree with you about student’s boredom. As my Mother once told me, I make myself bored; no one else can do that for me. Teachers and subject matter do not cause kids to be bored. They do that all by themselves.

By Dragonlady

September 5, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

For the first time in a very long career, I am teaching in a magnet school, and I am here to tell you, there is a vast difference between classrooms with bright, anxious to learn kids and classrooms of mixed ability where the teacher is forced to go over and over major points that the brighter kids got the first time and suffer from boredom as the teacher pounds material for the benefit of the other students. The pacing is so much faster, the kids are more alert, and they even laugh at my jokes, which would have gone over the heads of so many others.

Yes, ability grouping works. For a long time now, “those in charge” have seemed a great deal more worried about the self-esteem of the slower kids, much to the detriment of the brighter ones. And it isn’t the slower kids who will be the rocket scientists of tomorrow.

The irony here is that the slower kids do better when they are grouped. They don’t suffer so much by comparison. And you can’t tell me that they don’t feel the differences between themselves and the smarter kids. You can differentiate lessons all day long, but you can’t remove those feelings from those kids.

By jim d

September 5, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this

Old school,

It is my understanding that;

Many magnet schools reserve a certain percentage of seats for students that demonstrate ability. Other elgibility requirements often are in place as well.

Generally speaking if a student becomes a discipline problem they may be booted from the program with permission of the school super. in which case they would return to the school designated by the school system. This also may apply to students that fail to academically meet requirements.

By jim d

September 5, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

JMHO,

But seems to me there is room within public education for regular schools, magnets as well as charters.

But let us not confuse them. Doing so could potentially be devastating to some of the minority groups. And let us not just create one or two within a school system. We need to make these options available to all students regardless of where they live or the color of their skin.

By jim d

September 5, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this

A few interesting facts.

Magnet schools may discriminate in admissions—Charter schools may not

School districts generally make transportation available to magnets but are not required to for charters.

Some states don’t make local money available for charter students.

Some states calculate funding differently for a charter school than they do magnets or other public schools.

Federal funds are available to charters and magnets in most cases.

Average per pupil cost is approximately $700 less per year at a charter school than at a public school.

http://www.loeo.state.oh.us/reports/PreEleSecPDF/FundingforCharterSchools_web.pdf#search=%22funding%20for%20charter%20schools%22

By b. white

September 5, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

At my school if I introduce something to the students that they do not understand they either distract because they do not want to seem stupid or try to ask another student for help. They do not want me to know they’re struggling. I have very few students willing and able to read and follow directions to achieve an outcome.

By Producer

September 5, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this

Let’s not mistake the slack-jawed, mouth breathing, dimwitted gaze of the inbred for boredom!

After all we are talking about Georgia students!

46th out of 50 is wonderful!

By TinaTeach

September 5, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure if this is true in Georgia or not. When I attended a magnet school in Oklahoma City (Fine Arts) the school was also required to serve students from the surrounding area as a normal middle/high school in order to keep from being deemed an illegal institution. Is the same true in Georgia?

By OldSchool

September 5, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

Ah me! What a day! This had been a rather good, thought-provoking blog and then “Producer” shows up…or is it IOC in disguise.

And Patti-dear, don’t take this harshly but it’s equation that football is out of…not equasion. (It has really been more of a Monday all day, hasn’t it?)

By jim d

September 5, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this

Yes Tina, According to the Ga. DOE site.

The statute defines a magnet school as a public elementary school, public secondary school, public elementary education center, or public secondary education center that offers a special curriculum capable of attracting substantial numbers of students of different racial backgrounds.

Magnet programs aim to eliminate, reduce, or prevent minority group isolation in elementary and secondary schools while strengthening students’ knowledge of academic subjects and their grasp of marketable vocational skills. The special curriculum of a magnet school attracts substantial numbers of students from different social, economic, ethnic, and racial backgrounds and provides greater opportunities for voluntary and court-ordered desegregation efforts to succeed

By Patti Ghezzi

September 5, 2006 04:23 PM | Link to this

Davidson is open to students from all over Richmond County. Interested kids audition and are chosen based on “teachability” in an arts area. The school must maintain a racially balanced enrollment, because the district is still under court ordered desegregation.

Jim is right that charter schools simply accept applicants and fill slots on a first-come, first-served basis. Magnet schools may have admissions criteria.

About funding … the district funds three magnet schools and has for years. I don’t know if the cost ends up being more or less than a traditional school. There are more arts courses but no technical track courses…etc. Of course, it would be cheaper to have no choice programs whatsoever, but then the district would lose more students to private schools and homeschooling. I’m sorry I don’t have more details on funding.

By Aaron

September 5, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this

The problem with the school systems might not be neccessarily the teaching, but the material. Students just don’t have enough choice around the state when it comes to dictating what they want to learn in high school In the end, the information they do learn in high school becomes a simplistic understanding how to handle social situations. Accelerate the public high schools past the simpicity of what a standard high school education has offered before, and offer more challenging and interesting classes. When these kids graduate let them leave with actual relevant information. Otherwise, American public high school education will continue to be the disgrace it is when we compare it to other modern industrialized countries. Give these kids a chance to do engineering, science, and math. Have the changes mandated at a state level rather than national level. The government is realizing how the current educational system is hindering our capability to continue to accel on a global economic level. Let Georgia lead the revolution and overcome its present sterotypes.

By C.R.H.

September 5, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

Why can’t school be as fun and entertaining as watching tv or playing x-box? Lord knows these kids “learn” so much from those activities! Most kids in high school are/were bored because they have no idea what is being discussed because they shouldn’t have ever made it to high school with their low skill level. The advanced kids may be bored because they have to sit in a class designed to meet the lowest common denominator…No child left behind at the expense of those trying to move forward.

By Producer

September 5, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this

Although my post was off topic, don’t be too hard on me OldSchool. My message was a bit sarcastic but it was more or less correct as far as the general abilities of our kids when compared to those in other parts of the country. And we won’t even talk about the rest of the world, who spend 3/4 less per student and clean our clocks in most areas.

When we have been in the cellar in all areas of academic achievement for 50 years. We have to ask ourselves why?
It certainly isn’t money. If it isn’t money then it’s parenting and the home environment or the ability of the kids themselves.

By Patti Ghezzi

September 5, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

OldSchool, I appreciate your gentle reminder! As the blogmistress, I have the power to go in and fix spelling/grammar and usage errors. I do appreciate that the reminder was not couched in “Wow, this is an education blog and the blog moderator doesn’t know basic English. NO WONDER GEORGIA IS LAST IN EDUCATION!!!” That, I would not have appreciated (-:

By OldSchool

September 5, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

Could I venture a guess that part of the parenting (or lack of parenting) problem is that too many kids have parents who were never “parented” themselves? Behaviors need to be modeled for kids to learn them and we’ve got a whole lot of kids whose moms and dads were kids themselves and likely the grandparents were also kids when they became parents themselves.

Okay, that entire paragraph makes very little sense but maybe you get where I’m going here. If no one ever showed you how to properly prepare sushi and suddenly you are responsible for doing that day after day after day, could you do a good job of it, especially if you had never eaten or even SEEN sushi before? A simplistic analogy for sure but you get my drift. We all lead by example…for the good or the bad.

BTW, how do you teach kids to NOT give up without first trying? That’s what I’m facing nowdays and it is tough.

By Producer

September 5, 2006 05:34 PM | Link to this

Good point, OldSchool.

You know how you kind of role your eyes when someone talks about the “old days?”

Well, I’m going to do it anyway.

When many of us who post on this blog were kids we ate dinner together as families, had four TV channels, if you include PBS, and had many fewer distractions.

There was spanking in schools and God forbid if you EVER got one of those because daddy would whip even worse when he found out.

There was much more discipline. I think that’s the major problem with society as a whole. We are too lax and permissive.

Could you ever imagine someone called DEFACS when you were a kid if your father spanked you? Hell, I even got spanked by neighbors when I was out of line!

Bring back discipline (all forms) and we’ll do much better!

By abc

September 5, 2006 05:38 PM | Link to this

I think OldSchool has a good point, although I view it from a slightly different angle. While ‘parenting’ wasn’t a verb when I was a kid (at least not one I’d ever heard), a typical approach was to simply expect good performance and that’s it. It was hands-off compared to today’s notions of how parents should raise their kids. It allowed the kid to screw up and learn lessons the hard way, and allowed them to mature more quickly. For instance, every kid I knew in high school looked forward to turning 18 and moving out on their own, whether going to college or entering the work force. I never see that anymore! Kids are living at home well into their twenties.

Perhaps I was fortunate to have a lot of very good teachers back then. They generally had no trouble with unmotivated and bored students; not only were most of us interested in school anyway (it was actually ‘cool’ to be smart and have talents in those days, unlike now), many of them had fascinating ways to keep us interested, mostly based on their own personalities and character. I haven’t found that to be true of my children’s teachers, with rare exceptions.

By Fulton County Mom

September 5, 2006 05:47 PM | Link to this

I have been against the de-grouping of students. My own tends to get bored and find other things to do. She gets it the first time. Now the school is thinking ADD…which her doctor has already ruled out.

I know that I was in college, and this girl had suffered serious brain damage in a car accident. I would go to class on Monday of one week and Wednesday of the next week and that kid would still be asking the same dang question. I went to the professor and he said “QBE says we have to education everyone and not in special classes. She paid her tuition.” I pointed out that I had paid mine as well and deserved to be educated at college level if she needed remedial help perhaps I or someone else could tutor her. Result? I got to “skip” my classes and do independent study (with extra assigned readings) and only had to show for the tests and for 30 min each week after class to meet with the prof. I earned a B but I learned tons…and it was interesting. I have never forgotten that. You get any student willing to learn you will have a great program. That Prof was smart enough to realize he had 2 people on opposite ends of the spectrum who wanted desperately to learn.

Point? Let’s get kids to want to learn. Show them that it can be fun and interactive (dare I say entertaining?). My mother taught us fractions while baking. My Dad taught us to read using comic books. We learned memorization stuff (spelling, Shakespeare) to music.

By lynn d

September 5, 2006 06:07 PM | Link to this

About the cost…. in most cases magnets do cost more. The speciality area is taught by specialists, who usually don’t fit a funding formula.

In some places, the costs are relatively minor, like $250 a child, but in other places, like DeKalb, the costs are very high. Both Kittridge Magnet and Dekalb Elementary School of the Arts, have at least 8 teachers that are totally paid for with local funds.

Often, the teacher-student ratio at magnet schools is significantly lower than at traditional schools.

By jim d

September 5, 2006 06:13 PM | Link to this

thank you Patti,

You do know of course that even some charters have a method of keeping out “less desirable students” by creating a curiculum that will scare off many students.

Kind of like what Gwinnett is creating with its proposed “Gwinnett Charter School of Advanced Math, Science and Technology.”

And since many school districts don’t provide transportation to charter schools, it’s entirely possible they could even eliminate most of the F/R lunch crowd, assuring a sucessful school. I must admit though, I’ve not heard their plans on transportation for this school.

By SET

September 5, 2006 06:25 PM | Link to this

jim d’s comments are right on.

Kids are bored when they are moving at a snail’s pace because of dull students who don’t belong in an academic class. When you have a class all operating at the same level you can keep everybody engaged.

And a good teacher can work the class on deadline so they don’t have time to get bored. No slowing down for stragglers.

Around here it’s called “private schools”.

By Janine

September 5, 2006 08:42 PM | Link to this

ABC.@5:38…You are so right on about parents in our day just expecting good performance and that was it..and about the HANDS OFF of school matters compared to today. I have been a teacher for a long time and have never become accustomed to the idea that parents have to be involved in order to get acceptable perforance from their children. I have said this before on this blog and the more I reflect and think about it , the more I believe that it is not parental involvement, but parental ATTITUDE that makes the difference.

By Janine

September 5, 2006 08:49 PM | Link to this

and PATTI...A dollar to a doughnut… you can sit in on any class in any public school in any county in Georgia that is populated with students of the same calibre as those you observed at Davidson and see the same “engagement” you saw there. [THat would mean that the classes would be populated with the students who score in the top 10% …which, as I have said here before,research shows compare quite favorably with any students in selective private schools

By jim d

September 6, 2006 08:46 AM | Link to this

janine,

you do realize of course that magnet schools are public schools, Right?

By jim d

September 6, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this

My only concern with magnet schools is that they could easily be a haven for segregationists and used to curcumvent civil rights laws. Fortunately most states have created magnet school laws that should keep it from happening, but one must wonder how effective these laws are and how closely schools are monitored for compliance.

By SET

September 6, 2006 09:20 AM | Link to this

Jim D: Please explain what you mean by “a haven for segregationists and used to curcumvent civil rights laws”

By KA

September 6, 2006 09:27 AM | Link to this

jim d, I am unclear about your comment. Do you think that segregationists who are admins of school systems would work to keep people of color out of the magnet schools? Or that students are flocking to these schools to avoid the diversity at their local schools?

By IOC

September 6, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

I hope the new Gwinnett Charter School of Advanced Math, Science and Technology is exclusive. I hope they require that the teachers hold advanced degrees and are certified and I hope that the students are all classified as gifted or top 5%. I would drive my SUV for those kind of demographics.

By Dean of Students

September 6, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this

Discipline - School Spankings - These are what our schools are lacking. Lawyers and Public Officials think that they know what is the best way to educate our children? Try asking any teacher to school principle what way is best. They know, they are there EVERY day with the student. By the way, Georgia Law says that School Spankings are still legal through out the State. It is up to each District’sBoard of Education to write a policy to say what is a spanking offense. Our Boards of Education are too weak and afraid of the parents of the “BAD” children, you know the ones that would have the little “backsides” tore up everyday for their behavior. Those parents would be standing in the Principle’s Office, Board of Education meetings or hiring a “lawyer” to to sue (everyone just wants to get paid). If these “parents” would raise their children properly - to respect authority and know that there is a consequence for their actions - then all of our children would benefit and LEARN.

If it is to be, it is up to me.

By jim d

September 6, 2006 09:44 AM | Link to this

SET,

Many magnet schools have admissions requirements. If these requirements are set in such a fashion to eliminate admissions of students that are stuck in low performing schools that are predominately minority schools they would in fact be eliminating minorities from the process.

Then lets consider transportation issues. By simply placing a magnet school in an upper class neighborhood, far removed from some of the disadvantaged areas and not providing transportation or at a minimum requiring any students from these areas to spend hours every day commuting they will in fact have deminished many minority students will or abillity to attend these schools.

KA, Indeed I believe there are bigots in every walk of life. Parents that would move their children and school admins. that would gladly admit them. After all Karen, its all about those scores. Right?

By jim d

September 6, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

IOC,

I don’t disagree. My problem lies in that some extremely gifted kids may eliminated due to transportation issues.

By jim d

September 6, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this

IOC,

You are aware that the school system wouldn’t be accountable to taxpayers to the same extent they are for other schools and have no problem with a body of government spending your tax dollars without any accountability?

This is one of the differences between a charter and a magnet. ACCONTABILITY

By Janine

September 6, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this

jimd….I may not have been clear….I do indeed know that magnet schools are public schools. I actually was referring to the fact that the students who are admitted to the magnet schools must meet pretty rigid entrance requirements and are most likely in the top 10% of students in public schools… and that those students are comparable in ability and motivation to students in private schools.

By KA

September 6, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this

jim d, A magnet school usually has a bus that transports it’s students to the school.

By jim d

September 6, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

Well sometimes. However, several states have set a cap on the number of seats reserved for the smart kids. Forcing magnets to open their doors wide to all students after that cap has been met. Usually somewhere around 20%.

I’m uncertain if that would include students that are discipline problems or not.

By Janine

September 6, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this

However,…{unless the policy has recently been changed.}…some of the teachers at the magnets in Dekalb, particularly those in magnets labeled for “High Achievers”, have told me that the county has lowered their entrance requirements [in the interest of “fairness” and diversity]…so that those schools are now required to have spaces reserved for a certain number of students from each of the schools in Dekalb. It use to be that the names put in the lottery for these magnets were only students who made a certain score on a standardized test .

By jim d

September 6, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

KA,

indeed many magnets do. But that bus may be several buses and transfers, taking hours to make the trip.

My curiousity has been peaked about the GCPS plans for transportation to their newly proposed charter school operated by the school system. Since most areas of the country do not provide transportation to charter schools, will GCPS be setting a precident if they do that would then obligate taxpayers for transportation to future independantly operated charter schools in the county? Think about that one befor answering.

The impact may be we will be paying millions of dollars for transportation to charter schools in the future OR that the school system has virtually eliminated many students ability to attend this school. There is no middle ground that I can see.

By jim d

September 6, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

janine,

I assure you those changes didn’t come about by choice. As I’ve stated before, I have no problem with magnets or charters, but lets call them what they are. Calling a magnet school a charter school to let school admins off the hook for how they spend tax dollars and then not opening their doors to all on a first come first serve basis is a huge load of donkey dung being dumped on our kids and taxpayers.

By Janine

September 6, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this

jimd….I’m not sure I understand your point about opening the doors to first come first served. How can one have a magnet school for High Achievers without having a criteria for exactly what a high achiever is and then admitting only those students who meet that criteria? Or a magnet for math without some evidence that a student who is admitted has soe competence in math? I had several students audition for the Dekalb School of the ARts. One in ballet, one in violin, and more. Are you opposed to the idea that magnets are for those with special interests or competence in certain areas>?

By jim d

September 6, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

Gwinnetts newest is a CHARTER that appears to be a magnet for high achievers disquised as a charter.

Magnets must comply with the same things any public school has to. Charters do not. This includes a lot, but high on my list of priorities is accountability for how the money is spent. My problem with Gwinnett is that the school system may be spending tax dollars with no accountability to taxpayers.**

By jim d

September 6, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

janine maybe this will help.

Charter schools must admit anyone.

Magnets don’t.

So if a charter school is formed but actually operates like a magnet, descriminating on admittance. Your tax dollars are paying for that descrimination and the school has no accountability to you or taxpayers on how they spend the money.

Are we starting to see a problem?

By SET

September 6, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this

Jim D: It is no “problem” to “circumvent civil rights laws” by setting exclusionary policies for magnet schools - or other schools for that matter - to limit enrollment to those who have reasonable expectations of succeeding in the programs offered. I’d like schools districts - especially large ones - to offer a selection of programs so that most people would have one that suits their needs. I don’t believe people can force themselves into a program they can’t handle.

As far as the placement of the schools - I don’t think schools, stores, banks, or much else needs to be placed in or near the ghetto. Too many security problems.

My point is that the world does not revolve around the needs or wishes of the ghetto or it’s residents. As far as lower functioning members of the population whoever they are - it’s up to them to start improving their performance - the state and the schools in no way have to dumb down programs to make the non-performers comfortable.

By jim d

September 6, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this

one other thought here on a what Gwinnett has done. Unless I’m mistaken.

Were the school considered a magnet — it would have to make information available through open records requests or the FOI act upon request.

Being its a charter—-the GCPS will not have to provide any information on this school as required by state or federal laws of governement agencies.

Patti, can you research that??

By jim d

September 6, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this

SET

Now there’s a plan thats sure to work.

lets keep the poor and downtrodden poor and down trodden.

Just because someone is poor don’t mean they are ignorant. Yet you’d keep a genius surpressed by not affording him the opportunity to improve just because he resides in a ghetto? How nice!

By MMM

September 6, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

Charter schools have a much higher bar to meet in admitting anyone than other public schools because a system can say “you are blind—we want you in this classroom in this building because we want to consolidate all the folks with your label in the same place for efficiency sake”. A charter school must admit and must accomidate the handicap. While they may name themselves anything they want—that does stop anyone. Instead you get a barbell effect—such as charters like “Tech High” are dealing with. There are some kids who want the program and want to be there, and there are some parents who put their children there because they see it as a last hope for a problem child that they aren’t addressing real issues with. Let me move Johnny before he is assigned to the alternative school and maybe his records won’t follow him.(but his behavior certainly will not change)

Magnets are a carrot used to maintain white participation in districts that were under court order for desegregation. They have been maintained because they have very loyal and vocal advocates in the parents who get their children in them.

We need a major discussion of whether equity means “identical” are weather it means that children recieve equal taxpayer funding that might be deployed in a varity of ways to engage a varity of interests and needs.

You cannot fling the unfair label against charters because these schools are given no funding for the building, buses, food or administration—yet they must meet all safety, non-discrimination, testing and other criteria fundamental to being a public school. My child did not loose her moral right to a taxpayer funded building just so that I may have a direct say in the governance of her school!

Please forgive the typos above.

By MMM

September 6, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

Jim D.

Charters are required to meet all provisions of the open meetings and records act.

By Patti Ghezzi

September 6, 2006 12:08 PM | Link to this

JimD, charter schools are public schools and subject to the open records laws, the same as any other public institution. I have sought information over the years from charter schools, and they had to comply just like any other public school would.

By Ernest

September 6, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this

MMM, your comments @ 11:47 go to a deeper issue, IMO. Is equity providing the same academic options at all schools even if it means delivering them costs more at some schools versus others? Is it simply ensuring each school has the same budget based on their ADA and allow that school to do what’s best for that community?

I believe choice options are needed in school systems. We’ve got to find a way to make them available to more without lowering expectations.

By Janine

September 6, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this

jimd..YOu kow, I think you might be right. This old memory is coming back about the original purpose of magnet schools, at least in Dekalb. If I remember correctly, at least one of the reasons they began to pop up was an effort to get white students to south Dekalb and black students to north Dekalb. They located the magnets accordingly.

By jim d

September 6, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

Ok, well here’s what i’ve learned today.

Most charter laws prohibit discrimination on the basis of need for special education services. As a public school, a charter school must comply with the federal Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), the Office of Civil Rights (OCR) and any state special education laws.

They also prohibit discrimination based on academic ability. Diagnostic or placement exams may be given to students after they have been officially enrolled. As with all public schools, a charter school may create eligibility thresholds for enrollment that are consistent with their area of focus or grade levels, but the school’s methods for determining eligibility cannot be designed, intended, or used to discriminate on the basis of a child’s knowledge, skills, or disability. For instance, a charter high school may deny admission to a student not completing the 8th grade, but it cannot deny admission to a student who has an “unsatisfactory” score on a state test.

By V for Vendetta

September 6, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this

Just wanted to say that I have been enjoying reading this thread. SET and JimD are two of my favorite posters, not because I always agree with them, but because they bring very educated commentary to the blog. I think you both have made some good points. This is an issue that I tend to be on the fence on, so I am reading posts rather than writing them. Thanks for the interesting read.

Sorry to sound like a college prof.

I just think sometimes we could use a little more positivity on this blog. I thought this would be a good opportunity to bring some!

By jim d

September 6, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

Thanks V, oh and you too SET ;-)

By jim d

September 6, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this

Patti,

I’m not too sure you are totaly correct. Seems I read something several months ago about a company operating charter schools in Ohio? that was audited and didn’t have to provide company information that may have shown money from the charters was being spent at subsiderary companies to beef up their profits.

I’ll see if I can find it.

By jim d

September 6, 2006 01:36 PM | Link to this

Here it is Patti.

Appears it may still be tied up in court.

Are you aware of anything here in Georgia that would apply? Other than the law which could easily be challenged as it has been in Ohio?

http://www.cleveland.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1144139460213060.xml&coll=2

By luvs2teach

September 6, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this

Tried to post this yesterday, but I got an error message…

Great topics - good comments.

I see several factors to the boredom equation including students’ ability and motivation, curriculum, and teaching.

On motivation - I am teaching a gifted class for the first time this year - what a difference! I don’t have to motivate or entertain - their natural curiousity and love of learning keeps them engaged.

On grouping - you lose the bright ones when things are too easy, and they get bored. You lose the lower-ability ones when things are too hard, and so over their heads they quit trying and get bored. Differentiation is a nice word, but a difficult concept to implement well - and more often than not, the kids are still aware of who is getting different work.

On curriculum - there is too much with little practical application to the real world. Since many of our kids look at learning for learning’s sake as a foreign concept, we need to engage them in things that are relevant and meaningful (and still valuable). This effects teacher as well - I find the rock cycle boring - and of all the things I teach, it is one of the most difficult for me - not the concept, but making it relevant and exciting. I don’t have that problem with astronomy, which is one of my passions.

Again, like everything else in education, this doesn’t have one easy answer, because it is a problem with many roots.

By SET

September 6, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this

Jim D: It’s interesting that you think my policies would keep the downtrodden downtrodden. Quite the opposite. It’s the maniacal policies of the Great Society and the Civil Rights Movement of the mid 20th Century that took safe, functional and progressive segregated black schools of 1959 to violent, disfunctional and regressive segregated black schools of today.

Not all schools are like this but in CA - show me a school that is even 35% black and I’ll show you…

You object because I would have the school district set standards for each school it runs and exclude anyone (of any race) who can’t meet the standard. We would have special ed for the severly retarded and reform school for the psychopathic children.

You think that setting standards destroys the aspirations or whatever of the Negros or whoever we are talking about. It doesn’t. People have a way of rising to what’s expected of them. And I’m not talking about setting standards so high nobody would be in school. I’m talking about standards of dress and deportment and meeting basic 8th grade literacy before being allowed to set foot in a regular high school.

It’s the unwillingness of the left wing to demand anything from anyone that had led to the chaos in the minority neighborhoods that never existed in this way prior to the 1960’s.

And for the record I don’t believe that any public school teacher in a regular school should have to be concerned about his or her safety, security or dignity. And I don’t think that’s an impossible dream, they just need an administration that can scare the hell out of any troublemaking students and their parent.

And I don’t believe in trying to operate services in Compton CA and such places until they are pacified. You know, like the small towns in CA where the local Police have computerized lists of all the felons and druggies on probation and parole and do house to house searches (can we say “probation/parole search?) to snatch up their dope, guns, and stolen TV’s and otherwise run the active criminals out of the “good” neighborhoods. This is what’s not done in Compton because as far as the government is concerned the ghetto can just stay ghetto.

A more productive government would smash criminal strongholds. Not give them a licence to operate. I believe that we still can have a better and safer place for everybody if we actually fought for it. Schools included.

By jim d

September 6, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

Whoa SET, climb down off the soap box.

My only objection to standards is when they aren’t applied equally. You see my friend equality is all I feel anyone is owed.

From what you’ve indicated your opinion of equallity includes building great school only in great neighborhoods and requiring disdvantaged to find their own way to these schools.

Sorry my friend—you’re wrong. You want riots? Build your schools and watch them happen.

By Patti Ghezzi

September 6, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

In Georgia, private companies that carry out public functions are subject to the state’s open records law. The relevant case law is an AJC lawsuit against a private company that used to provide bus service to Decatur city schools. Our open records expert is on deadline, but he said he would hustle up the case information when he has a minute.

Please note that agencies and companies subject to the open records law do not always comply.

Regardless, it seems like it would be an awful lot of work to put forth a charter school for the purpose of getting around public disclosure.

Patti

By jim d

September 6, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

LOL Patti,

And how long have you written articles on the Gwinnett public school system?

Would love a link to the particulars if some case law exists. Thanks.

By Patti Ghezzi

September 6, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

jim d:

I covered the Gwinnett school system from 1997 - 1999. The current beat reporter is Laura Diamond.

Here is database editor David Milliron’s response to the question about private entities running charter schools and whether they would be subject to the state’s open records laws (That is the issue in question, right?)

“Any entity, business or organization that serves a public function, including any non-profit entity, is subject to the Act’s requirements. See, e.g., Northwest Ga. Health Sys. v. Times-Journal, 218 Ga. App. 336, 340, 461 S.E.2d 297 (1995) (nonprofit entities operating “as vehicles for public agencies” are subject to the Act regardless of the amount of funding they receive from the public); see also Hackworth v. Board of Ed., 214 Ga. App. 17, 447 S.E.2d 78 (1994) (requiring private company that transported students under a contract with the city school system to reveal personnel records of school bus drivers); Red & Black Publishing Co. v. Board of Regents, 262 Ga. 848, 427 S.E.2d 257 (1993) (holding records of the University of Georgia Student Organization Court subject to the Act); Clayton County Hosp. Auth. v. Webb, 208 Ga. App. 91, 430 S.E.2d 89 (1993) (designating records of private corporations associated with hospital authority as public records); Cremins v. Atlanta Journal and Constitution, 261 Ga. 496, 405 S.E.2d 675 (1991) (records reflecting the athletically related “outside” income of public university athletic coaches are public records even if the records are not on file with and have never been reviewed by university officials); Dooley v. Davidson, 260 Ga. 577, 397 S.E.2d 922 (1990) (same); Macon Tele. Publishing Co. v. Board of Regents, 256 Ga. 443 (1986) (records showing the assets, liabilities, income and expenses of the private University of Georgia Athletic Association are public records). But cf. Corp. of Mercer Univ. v. Barrett & Farahany, LLP, 271 Ga. App. 501, 610 S.E.2d 138 (2005), cert. denied 2005 LEXIS 392 (Ga. 2005) (documents received and maintained by campus police force of a private university not subject to the Act, despite the fact that the university’s police powers were delegated by the General Assembly).

Moreover, the Open Meetings Act, O.C.G.A. § 50-14-1, specifies that nonprofit organizations receiving at least a third of their funds from tax revenues are automatically subject to the Act. O.C.G.A. § 50-14-1(a)(1)(E). In 1999, the Assembly also amended the Act to reach records received or maintained by a private entity “in the performance of a service or function for or on behalf of” a government agency. O.C.G.A. § 50-18-70(a).”

By SET

September 6, 2006 05:36 PM | Link to this

Jim D: It’s been a strange day here.

But: Who say anything about great schools in great neighborhoods? Primary schools are often placed in neighborhoods. But around here, High Schools are their own destinations. Like a giant factory.

In time I’m sure we will see the rise of Internet (private) Schools. They could well threaten the public school monopoly.

And those often called “the disadvantaged” are anything but. More like the degenerate.

The real disadvantaged are my African and Vietnamese In-Laws who came to the USA with nothing and have Houses and Hondas. I had an East Indian law clerk who came to the US at 6 and lived in a motel with 6 relatives for years. She’s now a lawyer with a physician husband and children. You would never realize what they’ve come up from and they think nothing of it. My Gardner is a Mexican immigrant who owns a house worth as much as mine. he works 40 hrs a week at his main job then does 13 houses front and back every weekend. My parents sponsored a young Hungarian Immigrant couple in the late 1960s who arrived with only their clothes and now own apartment complexes. It goes on and on.

California is full of immigrants and their families (try the Russian immigrants in Sacramento CA for example - or the Viet Namese in Orange County) who lawfully immigrated and never for a minute look back. They were disadvantaged. They were not college educated upon arrival. They were farmworkers. They went to school, cared for elderly relatives, managed their medical problems, stayed out of trouble and worked all the time.

So I don’t consider the residents of Compton “disadvantaged” at all. We are surrounded with the real disadvantaged. Young & Healthy American Citizens are never disadvantaged.

I was annoyed earlier (it creeps into my writing) after reviewing a lot of autopsy photos on a teenaged shooting. Older woman killed by irate customers of her drug dealer son angry about $45 shortage in pot deal. The dealer wasn’t home at the time, Momma came to the door. I don’t even remember seeing it in the papers. It’s just a common thing nowadays. The shooters are going to get life without parole. No two ways about that. 25 years ago this would have been a sensation. Really nice $350+k house she lived in. 45% of our murders are teenaged gangster involved killings.

Brave New World.

By MMM

September 6, 2006 06:18 PM | Link to this

Just read the charter school law and it is explicitly stated there. And to answer Jim D’s earlier post. There are no preferences allowed for charter schools other then for siblings of presently enrolled students and a designated geographic draw area or feeder school. In general the geographic draw area is much wider than the narrow one that serves a traditional school so charters would tend to represent a greater geographic diversity.

I was once in a presentation in the charter schools subcommittee at DOE given by the expert in magnet programs explaining the difference in requirements between the two. The leagle definition of a magnet is a school set up under court order in order to meet some defined racial balance. When that court order is lifted, and the school no longer uses racial criteria it ceases to be a magnet. It is leagally impossible to be both a magnet and a charter (although there is one conversion charter school that was allowed to name itself just that because it used to be a magnet when founded many years earlier). This expert stated that very few true “magnet” schools exist—but the name has morphed to carry a different connotation.

Ernest—-your are right there are many bigger issues here, and I certainly agree that we need more types of program. But we must also have transparency and accountablility for the amount of resources deployed. Something that we are along way from having with the present funding system. We can’t have equity in any terms other than identical programming if there is no flexibility in how funds may be deployed.

By Janine

September 6, 2006 06:19 PM | Link to this

AH-h-h SETthe immigrant issue raises its head again. I’m sure everyone on this blog knows the stories about my immigrant students who always ALWAYS perform up to standards and beyond…., even though they see their parents maybe once a week, and they do the cooking and cleaning for their families. Again, PARENTAL ATTITUDE, NOT PARENT INVOLVMENT. I just cannot understand/process/wrap my mind around just why they are able to excel in spite of their situations and our own American students will not! Maybe it is as someone on Wooten’s “Thinking Right ” blog said…they feel entitled , they have way too much self esteem derived not from achievement, but from just breathing!

By Lisa B.

September 6, 2006 06:38 PM | Link to this

I do my best to prepare engaging lessons and activities. However, sometimes school is just boring. Sometimes certain aspects of my job are boring. I enjoy most parts of my teaching career, but am not entertained every, single second. Sometimes meetings are dull, workshops unenlightened, and paperwork can be mind-numbing! I tell my students that their lives will not be entertaining nor exciting every second of every day. Sometimes the work has to be done, just because it has to be done. It’s not always going to be entertaining. If educators hop through hoops to make sure Little Johnny never gets bored, what on Earth will happen to him when he enters the workforce? My house would be a wreck if I chose to do only those things that were fun or entertaining! Sometimes student achievement depends far more on attitude than on intelligence.

By SET

September 6, 2006 06:54 PM | Link to this

Janine: There is a theory that the immigrants who actually made it to the USA are self selected for intelligence, initiative, and risk taking. Or else they were just on the boat that didn’t sink.

My Ethiopian and Viet Namese relatives are not ordinary Ethiopians and Viet Namese. Neither are their children and relatives. They do seem aggressive and risk taking. You should see them at Las Vegas - or out shopping at a flea market. Or just try telling any of them they can’t do something (or get something they want).

Imagine what the children will become. The family history on both sides is an adventure story!

By Andrea

September 11, 2006 06:56 PM | Link to this

I think what this school has done is inspiring, but didn’t I read in the AJC a year or two ago that the reason they always have the top SAT score is that they only give the kids who have taken certain classes and review courses the school code when they register for the SAT? So the average joe who’s score they don’t want added into their average goes into the “9999” unknown category?