Get Schooled

By Janine

August 29, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

I feel the same way about expecting/encouraging every student to take the SAT that I feel about insisting/expecting every student to go to college….INAPPROPRIATE, BAD IDEA! My colleagues and I have discussed this issue so many times. We, as educators, are doing such a disservice to so many of our students. Beginning early in their schooling, they are endoctrinated ….unless you go to college you are worthless! We negate all other possible paths as if they have no value. In so doing , we deceive the students who , for whatever reason do not want to , or cannot, for whatever reason, choose go to college. The system today entirely ignores the contributions of those who do not/did not go to college. In actuality, 80% of jobs in our country today do not require college degrees…..training, apprenticeships, but not college. Schools today fail to offer those other paths to success. My colleagues and I always felt that if our school system offered more “paths” for our students, we could greatly reduce the drop out rates. Everyone should not be requied to take and pass trigonometry and chemistry and algebra II. College is not the only way to become a successful , contributing member of our society today,.

By jenny

August 29, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

Yippee!! We are really giving those asians a run for their money now!

By jenny

August 29, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this

I feel better if we were 4 from the top instead of 4 from the bottom! But, it is an improvement I guess.

By Atl Native

August 29, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this

I graduated from high school in DeKalb county in 1985. I think I had an SAT score of 995. I was a B student and very active in my school. I was told that I did well on the test. I was accepted to all the colleges I applied to with ease. I graduated from a state univeristy with a B average. When I look at my percentage on the SAT compared with GA’s overall percentage today —- Its about the same.

I’ve done well in business and am considered quite intelligent by others. I know many people who have multiple degrees who scored lower than I did on the SAT.

Is it really that big of a deal in a person’s overall life? Should it be? Is it a measure of intelligence? Kids who are interested and able to go to college should - but should we put all this pressure on one test?

Just my thoughts and questions for the day. Thanks.

By shay

August 29, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

this is just sad!

By Janine

August 29, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this

The reality of the success and contributions one of those “other paths” was brought home when we needed a plumber at our house. This joyous, pleasant man arrived, spent 40 minutes repairing a pipe…and charged $250! I asked him how he decided to become a plumber. He told me he didn’t have any desire to struggle through all the classes it took to go to college..he never liked school, anyway. So he decided to become an apprentice to a successful plumber. Said it was the best decision he ever made, and he is encouraging his son to do the same.

By Sarcasticus

August 29, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this

Let’s celebrate. We’re in the bottom 10%.

By shay

August 29, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this

I think the reality is, unless you specialize in a particular area that is of high demand i.e. teaching, physician, engineer, etc, then it is hard to find jobs even with a college degree. And alot of our youth are seeing other avenues to take as opposed to focusing on college because they feel they can make just as much money, or even more. I don’t think school is taken serious anymore. JMO!! I wish the test scores could be higher, not just here in Georgia, but nationwide.

By Robert H

August 29, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this

46th place!!!! GREAT!!! If you take the metro Atlanta suburbs out of the picture where are we?

By sw

August 29, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this

Janine - stating the percentage of jobs in our country that don’t require college degrees as a reason to not encourage students to go to college is faulty logic. There are other reasons to go; the personal growth, the knowledge (that can be used outside the workplace), the experiences, the friendships, the connections, etc. etc. etc. It’s not just about getting out and getting a job.

By Lynn

August 29, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

This is just a test…testing a person’s ability to take a test not his/her overall intelligence. I agree that we are told that if we don’t go on to college that we aren’t successful. My husband spent 8 years in the Navy…the technical training that he received from the Navy…without a degree might I add…has allowed him to make double than his brother with a doctorate degree or his sister with a master’s degree. So a piece of paper doesn’t always determine one’s worth or intelligence!

By Jake

August 29, 2006 10:46 AM | Link to this

What is even worse than finishing 46th? The fact that Janine, “an educator,” advocates not going to college to her students. No wonder our public school systems are awful. All those spots in college are now being taken up by international students, who are going to go home with American jobs in all types of fields. Its a shame that our educators aren’t inspiring innovation and creativity, which made our country great. Now they teach that if it requires hard work or perseverance, you can take the easy way out. No wonder we rank 46th.

By Lynn

August 29, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this

True but you can get this elsewhere too…like military service. Now…I’m not a recruiter nor do I think this is the path for everyone but just an example that there are other options besides college…which is getting too expensive for the average person to pay for without taking out mortgage-like loans to pay for!

By bob

August 29, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this

If you take out metro atlanta suburbs Ga would rank 50th

By ELLE

August 29, 2006 10:54 AM | Link to this

@Janine: I AGREE WITH YOU 100%! This country was founded on “small” businesses. Immigrants coming from other countries and opening stores, and other businesses.

NOT going to college does not make you a failure! YOu have very smart, and talented kids… that would make EXCELLENT entrepreneurs.

We have to be careful that we don’t allow companies like “Walmart” to take that opportunity away from ALL. Small business can’t compete with concerns as huge as that!

There are so many ways to earn a living. A comfortable HONEST living.

ALL kids should NOT be forced to take the SAT.

One of our kids made an excellent score. He is a freshman in college.

Another of our kids… made it out of high school by the skin of his teeth. He is in college and doing well. He works at a supermarket, and goes to school. He just accepted a job with a delivery service. They will help pay for school, and he is receiving benefits.

I think our kids are taking different paths… to success.

The child who barely made it out, has finally decided he WANTS to go to college. He is working hard both in and out of school.

The child that was an athlete, and a good student all along continues to do well.

We are grateful to both of them. We hope that our youngest will do similar things.

By webb

August 29, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this

thank you SW, people like Janine think like that for other folks kids not theirs.Going to college should be every students goal. We need to stop telling these kids "college aint for everybody”

By jim d

August 29, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

Jake,

Don’t assume janine isn’t advocating college for those that want to go. Looks to me as she has just pointed out that one can do well without a college degree. As has been pointed out a college degree may open some doors, but then so will cash. Tradesmen in this country are still making a pretty decent living and when all the hi- tech jobs leave and all the college educated are looking for jobs, tradesmen will still be making a decent living. Plumbers have been mentioned but leave us not forget welders, pipe fitters, electricans, carpenters and even auto mechanics will always be in demand.

By Dave

August 29, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

Again, everyone is comparing apples to oranges here. In Georgia, 70% of students took the test, while in many states that primarily use the ACT, only the top 5-10% of students took the SAT (usually students looking to attend out-of-state, SAT-based schools). While I’m pleasantly surprised that the AJC actually bothered to mention this fact in this year’s article, it’s still widely overlooked. A fair comparison would be ranking the top 10% from every state, but alas, such a comparison would likely put Georgia in the middle of the pack and that’s certainly no way to sell newspapers!!!

By MrLiberty

August 29, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this

So, from the 46th deck chair on the Titanic do you get a better view of the iceberg?

The iceberg of course being the talented wave of folks from the asian continent that is slowly approaching on the horizon to crush us and sink us.

check out the statistics in this link: http://www.reformk12.com/archives/000094.nclk. Here are some direct quotes:

According to the 2003 SAT results for various majors, etc:

“As you may well know, the SAT test is divided into two halves: Math and Verbal, with the scores reported separately for each. For some unfair comparisions, it is interesting to see how math and science fields do on the Verbal, and how language and humanities fields do on the Math.

The Math SAT: As would be expected, Mathematics majors scored highest of all the majors on the Math portion, with a 626 point average. They soundly trounced the Language and Literature majors, who were 76 points behind. But here’s the kicker: Language and Literature scored 67 points higher in Math than Education majors!

Not to put too fine a point on it, but well over half of future teachers will end up either teaching math or a math-heavy field such as science. Meanwhile future linguists, authors, and literature critics might not ever see another equation in their life.

And yet with Euclidian aplomb they fairly kicked Education majors’ butts (by 1.75 standard deviations, no less).

Ok, we hear your protests. Not every teacher will teach math, granted. So let’s look at the Verbal scores.

The Verbal SAT: Here, Language and Literature majors got their reciprocity, outperforming all other majors with a score of 603. Mathematics majors were forced to lick their wounds 58 points back. But (and you knew this was coming) the Math majors came off as quite cultured in comparison to our soon-to-be public school teachers, beating Education majors by 63 Verbal points!

This is embarrassing.

It could be worse: In a comparison of 21 college categories (we’re eliminating the non-college categories of “Home Economics” and “Technical and Vocational”) Education majors come in third-to-last place on the Math portion. Only “Agriculture or Natural Resources” and “Public Affairs and Services” majors scored worse.

In the Verbal portion—which should be a teacher’s strong point, or so we thought—Education majors took the silver medal in the race for last place. “Public Affairs and Services” again occupied the basement.

All we can say is, Thank God for government majors.

Now isn’t it about time we dismantle “Schools of Education” nationwide, and actually permit college students who major in something else (anything else but government) to become teachers? Please?”

Congratulations, these are the folks teaching your kids and preparing them for the SAT’s.

By John

August 29, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

Georgia schools do their job. My daughter graduated from a Georgia public high school and had an SAT score of 1490. My two sons had lower scores but still were above the national average.

If Georgia schools weren’t doing their job, ALL students would have bad scores. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. It is solely the fault of the student if he is unsuccessful on the SAT. He obviously doesn’t care enough to do what it takes—reading his entire life, paying attention in class, taking rigorous classes, getting enough rest, etc.—to do the job. Stop blaming the schools and place the blame where it should be—on students who are old enough to make any score they want so long as they put their priorities in the right place.

By bob

August 29, 2006 11:10 AM | Link to this

The SAT Scam-Despite Ga Tech and UGA high SAT and ACT requirements. If you enter a community college that has no SAT requirement. Then take core class that Ga tech or UGA requires for the first year or two you can transfer right into Ga Tech and UGA with all the 1300 and above SAT scorers. So as a sophomore “you” with a 600 combined score on the old scale after finishing 1-2 years of community college will be sitting right next to some one with a 1300 and above(old scale) doing the same calc 3 class. The bonus for you in all this both your degrees will say Ga Tech. Furhter, No employer will ask by the way what was your SAT score getting into Ga Tech. SAT SCAM!! If you don’t believe me check thier web sites for transfer requirements-SAT are not even looked at for admissions for transfer students—Freshmen are Suckers!!

By Jake

August 29, 2006 11:10 AM | Link to this

Jim D, I’ll put carpenters aside because I believe their work is more art than building. As far as other tradesmen, I can do all that stuff plus more. But my college degree enables me to get a higher paying job. Just in my own pursue of knowledge, I’ve taught myself plumbing and electrical through home maintenance. And I guess I’m lucky enough to be able to watch my mechanic. So I know most ways to fix things on my car without him. Its only extreme cases that require his tools. So in all of that, college may not be for everyone. But instilling the idea of “lifelong learning” should be put forth by educators. Janine doesn’t seem like the one to be pushing this idea. And thus, lifelong learners WANT to go to college, rather than being told it shouldn’t be their goal.

By jim d

August 29, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

Dave,

It also won’t sell education dollars for school improvement. If people wised up they’d be raising cane about the tax dollars being spent on all the school improvement teams made up of retired educators already drawing pensions and working part time for the same school systems they retired from and in some cases doubling the salaries they were making teaching.

By Dan

August 29, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

If everyone went to college it wouldn’t be worth all that much now would it. Should everyone strive for that? Maybe, but to go just for the experience, with no inclination for using the education is a waste of time and money.

By HB

August 29, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this

Patti, I have always heard that ACT states do better on the SAT than GA where everyone takes it. Seems to make sense, but I was wondering, do you know where GA ranks on the ACT? Seems like GA would rank near the top on that if the argument we’ve all heard is true, but I’ve only ever seen SAT rankings. Just curious…

By Chris

August 29, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

Why do we as Georgians, particularly Atlantan’s get so frustrated by these low scorings? Fact of the matter is, GA is the largest state east of the Mississippi. If some of you would get off the interstate and drive through the vast rural area called GA, you’d see why we’ll never score high. For the most part rural GA has substandard school systems, and will never score higher unless a whole litany of other socio-economic issues are addressed. A correllary between the welfare base, grad rate, and SAT scoring can definately be made. Forcing those kids to take an SAT to me is the equivalent of making 12th graders from Dunwoody take tests in animal husbandry. It’s ridiculous. Suburban Atlanta schools regularly score within the top percentiles in the nation. As long as that’s the case, I’ll continue to ignore the media’s facination with how dumb Georgia students are which is a direct reflection on the quality of their schools. I’ll embrace the fact that we’ve got some pretty good schools in the Atlanta suburbs that are being unfairly categorized with a huge geographical area of unequivalent school systems.

By mmcburton

August 29, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

Shame on teachers who think their students can’t go to college. That’s why the percentage of 4-year degree holders in GA is in the teens while in MA it is in the 30s. And guess what, all of the Northeastern states have a higher percentage of test takers, uniformly in the 80s, and then score much higher. Check out especially MA, CT, and NJ. So throw that excuse out, too. In fact, throw out all the excuses and put away the football and concentrate on what’s important because the cheap land drawing people to move here will run out someday.

By MrLiberty

August 29, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this

In his article The Truth About Grade Inflation, Bruce Bartlett explains:

“According to the College Entrance Examination Board, the average combined score on the Scholastic Assessment Test (formerly known as the Scholastic Aptitude Test) has fallen from 1059 in 1967 to 1020 in 2002. However, this greatly understates the magnitude of the decline because in 1995 the SAT was “renormed.” In practice, this statistical legerdemain added 100 points to everyone’s score – 76 points to the verbal score and 24 points to the math score. What this means is that for anyone who took the SAT before 1995, if you want to know how well you would do today you must add 100 points. Keep this in mind when some friend brags about how well his child did on the test. You can knock 100 points off for grade inflation in comparison to how your generation did.”

Of course some kids do well. Some parents care enough make sure they do. But just think about how well they might have done had they been homeschooled or private schooled (in a good private school)?

By jim d

August 29, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

Yo Jake,

Come work for me, I seriously doubt you’d cut it and all I do is electrical. LOL

Just because you can change a switch at home doesn’t mean you are qualified to put together a multi million dollar control system, make an installation code compliant or even be able to do it safely. Nope, I’d pit my least expierenced high school grad. apprentice against you anyday.

By Cindy

August 29, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

Is everyone aware that the SAT has recently been discontinued as an entrance test at all Georgia Univerisity system 2-year colleges? All that is required is a HS diploma or a GED. This should bring up our SAT scores even more next year since traditionally lower achieving students will attend 2-year community schools before moving on to 4 year schools.

By tcook

August 29, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

SONNY did it!

By Norman Einstein

August 29, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this

You people who think “college is for everyone” are idiots yourselves. You don’t live in the real world. Democracy does not extend to intelligence. Some kids are dumb. These are the ones who need to learn the 21st century version of how to pump gas. They don’t need to be gambling-subsidized aisle-cluttering college ‘students.”

By jim d

August 29, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this

Cindy—please post a link documenting that its lower achieving students that attend 2 year schools.

I seem to recall reading something about that number being larger because of financial reasons but if you have something that says otherwise I’d love to see it.

By Mark the Lib

August 29, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

Dave at 11:02 has it absolutley correct. Iowa which is normally number one only tests 6% of its students. Georgia tests 70%. See the difference? How does Georgia’s top 6 percent do on the test? That would be a better comparison.

By JustMe

August 29, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this

Come on everyone…. this State ranking is meaningless, REGARDLESS of where GA is placed. Even if they rank GA as #1, it does not mean anything.

Some states have only a handfull, usually the brightest, taking the SAT. Some states have all students, to include special ed. students, take the SAT. So comparing State averages mean NOTHING.

For the life of me I cannot figure out why any responsible journalist would even publish this list as a “story.”

By bob

August 29, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

For all those who romanticize about going to work rather than college lets look at some 2006 facts in Ga. First, there are no skilled trades in Ga. Get off the notion if you teach a kid carpentry or to be an electrician he will be a life long learner. That is Fiction in the 21st century because an illegal immigrant can build and wire a house with out a license or operate under one who does. They make 10 to 15 dollars an hour-no health care no benefits. That barely pays rent and a car note and surely cannot support a family. So that skilled trade notion is hooey in this 21st century southern labor paradigm. If you continue to believe this work over education notion, please visit the Barrow County jail in Winder and spend some time with the inmates. They all seem to be displaced “skilled laborers” with a high school education. So what did they turn to when cheap immigrant labor took their skilled labor job, cooking and using meth! Message to young folk-go to college be ahead of the trends-tech jobs are now outsourced-so move ahead. Most important, think and get information-Information is King in the 21st century-If you don’t go to college your parents will be paying me to get your “skilled labor” butt out of jail!!

By teach overseas

August 29, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this

Shame on teachers??? Get a clue!!!!

NO ONE is saying that kids who don’t go to college are lazy or worthless or will end up on welfare. There are so many options out there in regards to technical and vocational schools. These schools lead to real jobs and many of these pay real money! (Certainly much more than I’m making with a Master’s Degree!) The problem is that teachers and counselors are not allowed to even hint that there might be other options out there without fear of retribution. And just because they don’t go to college right after high school does not mean they won’t go back later on in life.

Who care that more kids in New Jersey go to college? All of our homegrown plumbers, mechanics, electricions, chefs and what not will be at the country clubs and driving around in fancy cars and clothes while the college grads are paying off tens of thousands of dollars in student loans.

By OldSchool

August 29, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

One thing that has not changed here at my high school, regardless of SAT or ACT scores is the answer to my question: “What do you plan to major in?” I ask it of all my seniors who talk endlessly about going to college (usually UGA or FSU). If I get an answer other than “I don’t know,” that answer is often “Engineering” although precious few can pin it down to a specific type of engineering.

Similar answers come from teacher wannabes who usually want to teach high school or elementary school but cannot be more specific.

How sad to waste HOPE money “finding oneself” even if that student had a high SAT score. Sadder still to watch them floundering around in college classes with they really wanted to be an auto mechanic or other tradesman but mama said no.

The fact is, 80% of the jobs out there require some sort of technical training, whether it is technical college or apprenticeships. 20% require college degrees and are usually in management related fields or such. Talk to the guy that heads the Department of Labor…he’ll tell you the same thing.

By John

August 29, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

Genetics, coupled with the Bible belt culture cripples Georgia’s academics.

By carpetbagger

August 29, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this

YEAH! WE’RE NOT THE DUMBEST STATE!!! ONLY THE 4th FROM DUMBEST!!! PROUD TO BE INTELLIGENT, SURROUNDED BY MORONS!!! GET YOUR DAMN NOSES OUT OF THE BIBLE AND INTO A TEXTBOOK AND MAYBE WE’LL ACHEIVE 45TH NEXT YEAR!!!!

By Nakia

August 29, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

I know why we are 46th. We are not checking the childrens school records. I know from experience that in Cobb County it depends on where you live how much education you will recieve. Georgia has the WORST SCHOOL SYSTEM EVER! It is a shame that our chidren are not given EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to get an education. SO SAD.

By Cindy

August 29, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

jim d. Sorry I don’t have any corroborating links. However, SAT scores accepted at 2-year schools used to be lower than those required at 4-year institutions, and now the fact that SAT exams are no longer required, will bring in those students who cannot make it into schools with higher standards. This is not to say that one cannot achieve in life by starting in a community college. As you said, many students are drawn to community colleges because of financial reasons. Also, I seem to remember an article that said the type of college one graduated from did not make a difference in terms of earned income over a lifetime.

By SNY

August 29, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

Hey,

I did not go straight to college after high school, I joined the U.S. Army and guess what, they paid for college!! There are always alternate solutions for everything in life. I drill it into my children’s heads that they are going to college but you know what, it really isn’t my decision. My kids have seen both their father and I study for college exams, and they thought that we were crazy. College isn’t for everyone. Especially right out of high school. Some kids have no clue, why should the parents waste the money. Let them do something else. Now, I am not advocating the military but it is always an option. I have told my kids that they can’t join the military and I mean it. They may choose to do so anyway. What can I do about it once they turn 18? Nothing but accept it and love them anyway.

For all of you people who claim that college is so important, why are college graduates having such a hard time finding jobs? I’ll tell you why, because employers want people with EXPERIENCE. Going to college gives you the book smarts but I have to be honest with you, I have my BS in Accouting and I have yet to come across a scenario in real life that was in any one of my text books. I wish that I could, then I would have an exact answer but life doesn’t work that way. All people really need to do is to follow their hearts. So many people give up on their dreams because others tell them what they should do. We should encourage our children to follow their dreams. It is much easier to go a job that you love rather than one that you hate. I love math and numbers - I went into Accounting. My husband loves people - he is a manager with Fedex. My husbands ex-wife loves to clean - she owns her own SMALL business cleaning rich peoples’ houses. She charges these lazy butt people $250 to do basic cleaning. She doens’t have a college diploma. Everyone is different. Remember that.

By stephanie

August 29, 2006 12:01 PM | Link to this

You all are laughing and joking around about our children, your childrens’ future. I find it utterly embarrassing that Georgia is considered one of the worse educated states. The SAT scores are just the tip of the iceberg. We as parents need to guide our children to want to achieve and excel. Because believe it or not—-there are some under achieving teachers in the school systems, so they want be much help! The reality is, test are giving in various jobs; therefore, children need to be conditioned and aware of the fact, test are apart of life. It’s up to us as parents to step it up for the future of our children,due to fact in the end it’s our responsibility.

By Claire

August 29, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this

So this means Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana all ranked higher than Georgia. Much poorer states economically, but higher test scores. Oh well, at least we can brag about the number of rappers that call the ATL home…

By Joe

August 29, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

46th!! I guess we need to give the teachers in the worst school districts a big pay raise.

By HB

August 29, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

The following site ranks states’ ACT scores, and includes percentage of students taking the test in each state. Doesn’t look good for GA — only 29% take the ACT, but GA was 46th in 2005.

http://www.midwestsites.com/stellent2/groups/public/documents/pub/mwsamed_000923.hcsp

The same site lists last year’s SAT rankings. GA did have a high percentage of students taking the test — 75%. However, other states with even higher percentages taking the test ranked much higher. Some of those have large urban centers, but New Hampshire, which is quite rural, had over 80% taking the test and still ranked 28th, so I’d be reluctant to blame south GA for the low scores. The very top states for both tests did have the low percentages mentioned in several posts, but clearly that is not the main reason for GA being near the bottom for both the ACT and SAT. It’s not that simple — something more is going on here.

By Hmm

August 29, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this

I don’t care about the state’s scores. However, with a 7th grader in Dekalb, I care a great deal about the lack of challenge (or flexibility) in the state’s curriculum. What a wasteland middle school is turning out to be. I’m so disappointed in GA’s ed system.

By ELLE

August 29, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this

@SNY: I believe what you write (about YOUR LIFE)is fact.

A great deal of the bloggers above are quoting numbers, and theory.

The decision by a kid to go to college is NOT a teacher’s decision, a parent’s decision, a school district’s decision, or a politician’s decision… it is a PERSONAL decision.

Those that want to go… those that don’t are NOT necessarily FAILURES.

Our society glorifies sports, and entertainment. COLLEGE is not necessarily required for either.

By Joe

August 29, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this

Who compiled these scores? This is an absolute scam to make GA look good. Pennsylvania has much smarter people than Georgia. It’s a much more affluent and academic state than most. This is an absolute lie. Hell, Hawaii is half Japanese. Are you telling me they’re not as smart as georgians? Your full of it!!

By Dana Kling

August 29, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this

THESE COMPARISONS are ludicrous.

The vast majority of GA students take this test while most states only have scores from their best and brightest.

This comparison is fundamentally flawed and not a reflection (entirely) of what is and what isn’t happening in our schools.

A frustrated teacher.

By Stuart

August 29, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this

How is we numbr 46? Yull have to chek the scors again!

By Ripdog

August 29, 2006 12:17 PM | Link to this

Too many people have this false sense that in order to succeed in life, you need a college degree. The person who posted earlier with the example of a plumber charging him $250 for 40 minutes of work has a valid point. I’m not ashamed to admit that I have two advanced degrees, great benefits, great pay, and this plumber who just has a high school degree and a couple of years of training more than likely makes more money than me. College is great, I loved it, but it isn’t the only path. Our educational system doesn’t do enough to encourage those to take other paths. Who cares about the SAT anyway. All it measures is how well you can take a test.

By kw

August 29, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

As an elementary school teacher, I can tell you why we rank 46th in the US. PARENTS! Everybody keeps blaming the school system, when the problem is lack of parental support. The problem in my 98% caucasion school is the parents do not read with their kids, they do not help with homework, they send them to school sick and let the nurse diagnose their ills, and they are too busy with their own lives to care about their children. My school is not mostly black or hispanic. It is predominantly white. We are one of the lowest schools in my district. The #1 problem is “THE PARENTS.” These children will go on to high school and either flunk out or drop out. If they choose to stay in school, they will help bring us down to 50th again. The parents don’t care about their learning, therefore the children don’t care.

By David

August 29, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

The SAT is BS. I graduated 9th in my High School class of 350. I had a 3.5 in college and scored under 1000 on the old SAT? I think the SAT is ridiculous in determining a kid’s future! It does show how well he/she takes a test but shows nothing of work ethic, determination, persistence etc.

All the SAT is a money maker for the people that own the SAT.

It is an easy way for lazy counselors to pigeon hole a kid and possibly ruin the rest or his/her life.

I am WASP that did poorly on the test. Think of people from other countries or cultures. They don’t have a chance. Maybe that is the real reason?

We should junk the SAT today!

By ACT Student

August 29, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

Wow - Schools in Georgia should be proud - they are no longer stupid - just dumb!

By Ralph

August 29, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

The SAT is highly overated and should not be used. I made very low on the SAT and graduated high school with a 2.5 GPA. I was able to go to Mercer University and get my BS with a GPA of 3.3. The SAT is a worthless test.

By Tashanda

August 29, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this

By Joe

August 29, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this

Who cares about SAT scores? Georgia has good high school football and that’s what really matters.

By SW

August 29, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

I’m a little shocked at the comments about HOPE scholarship money being “wasted.” Does anyone remember where the funds are coming from?? People who are gambling money they COULD BE INVESTING!!! How is spending gambling money on education a waste? There are jobs that don’t require a high school diploma, and guess what? No one’s saying HOPE money is being wasted on students who graduate from high school and get jobs that don’t require that level of education.

As far as the comments about the military are concerned, that’s an option for some, but not for everyone (I didn’t have that option - I graduated from high school at 16, so I wasn’t old enough to join the military, and hadn’t even considered it anyway). It just depends on what your goals are. I wouldn’t be in the field I’m in if it wasn’t for college because I wouldn’t have been exposed to it. And I love what I do.

As far as the comments about the money, you can’t tell people what they should value/spend their money on. If someone spends $40k on a car, everyone thinks “they’ve made it.” But if they have $20k in student loans because they went to college just for the experience, it’s “oh, that’s a waste of money.” Why is that? Why can’t we just let people value what they value?

By Chuck

August 29, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

Everyone uses the excuse that Georgia scores lower on the SAT than the neighboring states because a larger percentage of students in Georgia take the SAT. However, a larger percentage of students in Alabama than Georgia take the ACT, and Alabama outscores Georgia on that test as well (look it up). How do you explain that? My conclusion. Stop looking for excuses and improve the curriculum.

By jon

August 29, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

Is 1018 a passing score?

By jim d

August 29, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

Geez KW,

You were on a roll right up to this point.

“These children will go on to high school and either flunk out or drop out. If they choose to stay in school, they will help bring us down to 50th again.”

Please—pretty please— tell me how they ever get to high school.

You want to point a finger? Be carefull you have three more pointing right back at ya.

By SW

August 29, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

kw - Everyone’s experiences with the school systems are different. I used to work at a public middle school, and we had the same issues with a lot of the parents not participating - but it wasn’t because they didn’t WANT to, it was because they had to work - and work - and work to pay for basic expenses, with no time left to work with their kids on homework, etc. when they got home. Part of the problem too was the parents’ educational level. You can’t teach a child to read if you can’t read either. And you can’t teach them math that you don’t understand. Could they have learned? If they weren’t so busy working. It was a cycle of hopelessness for a lot of these parents, and we established a program to try to help them, rather than complaining about what they were or weren’t doing for their kids. Were we able to help them all? No, but we were able to help some - we were able to put computers in some of their homes, we were able to provide meals on occasion, and we were able to provide other services that they weren’t getting. But they needed a helping hand rather than a pointing finger. A pointing finger isn’t strong enough to lift anyone up.

By JC

August 29, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this

What our students can do to improve their academic perfomance? Do not waste valuable time in athletic programs.

Many of them want to be professional athletes. The fact is their chances are very, very small (1/1000000) so they will need to pass SAT, AP tests, and to have a career.

By jim d

August 29, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

Patti,

It actually feels one up from being 47th. Not that it really means anything in the grand scheme of things.

By kjs

August 29, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this

im a recipient of HOPE, and i appreciate all the gamblers

By Janine

August 29, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

So Jake.and mmburton and bob…I think maybe you missed the point!!! and ELLE, shay,Ripdog, teachoverseas,jimd, and SNY ..I think you all will agree,* no one is against college.* but there are other paths to success in life,both personally and in a career. And, looking the huge drop out rate in 9th grade,*it seems that HMMM @12:09 is right on about middle school…in GA usually grades 6-8…being a vast wasteland. *Flexibility is totally missing and when a student is having difficulty with academic subjects, and can see no future in staying in school, he/she drops out in 9th grade…not aware that there are other paths to success because the mere mention of another way is totally taboo in public schools today.

By kw

August 29, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

Hey jim d, you want to know how they will get to high school. They will get to high school because we can only flunk them so many grades in elementary school and then they must be promoted to the next grade. Alot of these students are usually labeled special ed. They get a free pass through all the grades. While you are pointing fingers, try teaching kids infested with head lice. Only 2 students out of my 20 have parents with the same last name. DEFACS is a frequent visitor to my school. Children come to school smelling like urine because their parents have cooked meth in the home the night before. They get no sleep at home, their finger nails and feet are filthy, along with their faces, and they have been through so much at home they could give a rip less about a simple subject or predicate. Do you honestly think that I went through 4 years of college to go through this? I am not a teacher. I am a baby sitter. Until the parents are held accountable and not the teachers, our SAT scores will continue to drop!

By I>) Cyclops

August 29, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this

This has got to be some of the best news I have read all year long. I am just jumping for joy. Now if we could ban liberals it would be great.

By kw

August 29, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

This blog is hopeless. SW did you ever consider the parents at my school are just poor white trash. They don’t want to work. My kids tell me how they stay home and watch Jerry Springer all day long. I have 3 children in my room with fathers in jail right now. I live in a very nice town with lots of manufacturing employment. Although, most of the parents of my children do not work. Explain that one. The problem is not that we need to help the less fortunate by not pointing the finger and giving them a boost. The problem is that we need to stop giving these parents a free pass and hold them accountable.

By SW

August 29, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

Cyclops - if we could ban “liberals” AND “conservatives,” that would be even better!

By Flibberdigibbit

August 29, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this

Question: What is the net difference in improvement between Georgia’s “improved” SAT scores and a taxpayer-funded facelift for Linda Schrenko?

Answer: Not much!

By Janine

August 29, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this

SW @ 12:43 is right on about parent involvement . @ kw, I never even met the parents some of my most academically successful students. …they were working 2 or 3 jobs and my student was cooking meals and taking care of younger brothers and sisters. I came to realize that it is not parental involvement but parental attitude that makes a difference. Parents do not have to be involved in homework, projects,etc…they do not have to attend PTA meetings or participate in fund raisers..What seems to really tip the scales is high expectations for their children. Many of you have mentioned Asian students’ academic success. We had many Asian students and we rarely , if ever, eveb saw an Asian parent. The students would always tell us that their parents couldn’t chaperone a trip, or come to a strings or band performance because they were working..7 days and 7 nights…Parental attiude/expectations is part of the key…not personal appearances or actual involvement in assignments

By jim d

August 29, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this

“Do you honestly think that I went through 4 years of college to go through this?”

Absolutely! You made a career choice. So get over it or get out.

Teachers aren’t saddled with sped kids they generally choose because of money and caring. (not nec. in that order)

Keep in mind, I’ve never ever said that all children can learn. Y’all elected that idiot (twice I might add)

By SW

August 29, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this

kw - I didn’t “consider” anything about your school - I said at the onset that everyone’s experiences are different. Clearly, without knowing anything about your school, I can’t make an assessment of what the problems are. The point in my post is that a lot of times, people are quick to point fingers rather than just doing what they can to fix the problem. If students are coming to class smelling because their parents run meth labs, why not call DFACS and report the parents? If we’re going to “hold the parents accountable,” let’s start there. Obviously you can’t save the world, but there are things you can do to help the kids.

By lynn d

August 29, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this

Patti

What is taking so long for the metro systems scores to be posted? Are the systems resisting releasing them?

thanks!

By GodHatesTrash

August 29, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

The 70% participation rate doesn’t reflect the fact that almost 40% of Georgians drop out of high school - I can’t imagine that too many of the folks taking the SATs end up dropping out.

Let’s face it - we have a primitive culture here in Georgia - superstitious, paranoid, violent people that worship guns, drugs, alcohol and Mammon. And they hate work.

The problem with Georgia schools can be captured with this simple phrase -

Garbage in, garbage out.

Think about it - in your hearts you know I’m right.

By Patti Ghezzi

August 29, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this

Kristina Torres is in charge of extracting school-by-school scores from the metro systems. We’re trying to post them as soon as we get them…

Patti

By kw

August 29, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this

Are you a teacher jim d? Do you think they told me in college that I would be going through all this HELL. No! Because if they did, there would be NO teachers. I am glad to see all the liberal educators have decided to join in on this blog. But this is one republican educator who doesn’t buy into all of the “feel good” reasons why kids don’t learn. I live in it every day and I know the reason why we rank 46th in the state and its not because parents are out working their tails off. There is no sense arguing with you liberals. You are all alike!!!!!!!!

By Ed

August 29, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this

This should give Sonny Perdue material for another great re-election ad. Something to be very proud of.

By Hamilton

August 29, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

GEORGIA: The Edumacashun State

By Greg

August 29, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

wow, i don’t want my kids to go to school in georgia. these scores suck. if i were to look at these scores as A,B,C,D,F - georgia gets an F. i don’t care how georgia compares to other states; i care about how georgia is doing in providing a quality education for its children.

By Flibberdigibbit

August 29, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

How are “liberals” a source of the problem? Last time I checked, most of the low-scoring states flash “red” on the national map. Georgia’s legislature, State School Superintendant, and Guvnuh all sleep in elephant-print pajamas while subtly peddling dissent against established scientific mores.

By greg

August 29, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

wow, i don’t want my kids to go to school in georgia. these scores suck. if i were to look at these scores as A,B,C,D,F - georgia gets an F. i don’t care how georgia compares to other states; i care about how georgia is doing in providing a quality education for its children.

By jim d

August 29, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this

Sw,

Isn’t kw compelled by law to report suspected child abuse? I’m certain he/she wouldn’t risk a childs well being by failing to report these incidents, regardless of how stupid the child appeared.

By SET

August 29, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this

Before GA gets too upset about the scores you have to deconstruct them so you are not comparing apples to oranges. What’s the racial makeup of your test takers compared to Idaho for example. Is the low ranking of GA related to a higher number of test takers of a particular race? Asians and Whites nationally do better on SATs and most other standardized tests. So how do your various ethnics do compared to the state scores of similar ethnics? I don’t know. I wonder is GA whites are particularly worse than TX whites, ditto for asians and blacks. Whatever the results are it’s better compare like to like.

Another stat to worry about is declines from decade to decade. If your 2005 students are doing worse than your 1960, 1970 and 1980 students one might conclude that school policies should be regressed to the times that produced better scores.

Or just ignore the whole thing and keep doing what makes the students and their parent happy this year. Cake and Ice Cream maybe.

Another thing, students who do badly at time pressure testing may be very gifted at the trades, cooking, driving, apparrel, and a number of other vocations that depend less on the skills involved in the SAT test and more on other skills that need developing - timing, visual, spatial skills and so forth (which are not tested by SAT). The state schools need to develop whatever may be on hand and see that their children can make a good living. The sky is not falling.

And yes, if we could ban liberals it would be great.

Brave New World

By jim d

August 29, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

LOL kw.

Not often have I been called a liberal.

By SW

August 29, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this

kw - my mom taught high school for almost 30 years in a poor area with less than involved parents who had all kinds of issues, so trust me, I know where you’re coming from - I’ve heard it all before. And even with my limited experience in the school system (middle school), I’ve seen more than I would want to.

I think sometimes people come in (to teaching) with all the right intentions, and after a while, they get burned out or disenchanted by all the garbage they have to deal with. That’s just the way it is - you could probably transfer to another school where you won’t have these issues that you’re talking about, but you didn’t. Why is that? Obviously, it’s not for the money. Could it be….because…. you actually CARE about these children?!?! (I promise, I won’t tell anyone - it’s our secret ;) But seriously, if you didn’t think you were making a difference in SOMEONE’s life, would you still be there? So it’s working. A teacher is making a difference, regardless of parental input. Imagine that!

By jim d

August 29, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

kw,

Am I a teacher?

I think a more important question is. Why are you still teaching?

By SET

August 29, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this

GodHatesTrash: Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean someone isn’t out to get you. And superstitious drunks can learn to cook. You’ve got to work with the people! Maybe GA can become more like Utah.

By Jim

August 29, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

If it ain’t the NAEP, cross state comparisons are ludicrous.

By michelle

August 29, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

someone please tell my parents that the $25K+ (i had athletic and academic scholarships to offset the rest of the expenses) they spent on my education was all worth it because i got “the experiences, friendships, knowledge (haha), and connections” that i so DESSSSPERATLEY needed. give me a break.

By jim d

August 29, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this

kw,

no disrespect meant, but have you considered getting a teaching position at a private school? It may pay a little less but then I’ve never met a teacher that was in it for the money.

By Joe

August 29, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this

JC,

You’re right on about the low odds of young athletes going pro. On the other hand athletics is a great form of aducation for children. As a coach of both softball & soccer, youngsters do actually learn a bit about work ethics and a lot about working as a team: those are life skills. Some of that can go a lot further than getting an A in algebra and never using it. I strongly support a good education system mixed with team sports.

By jim d

August 29, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this

to Michelle parents,

$25K for 4 years of partying sounds pretty reasonable to me.

How was that?

By SW

August 29, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this

jim d - yes, kw is required by law to report it. I was just pointing out that a lot of times, the issues students are facing at home are issues that teachers, administrators, etc. can actually help them with - i.e. reporting drugs, abuse, etc. It sounds like kw (kw, correct me if I’m wrong) doesn’t want to raise someone else’s kids - but anyone should know by now that that is sometimes a part of a teacher’s role- right or wrong, that’s just the way it is. And technically, picking up someone else’s slack is a responsibility that we all share when it comes to children - if you see a starving child, are you going to feed them, or are you going to say, “parents need to be held accountable. Feed your own child!” and let the child starve until his/her parents do step in?

If you have no compassion, maybe you shouldn’t work with children. It doesn’t have anything to do with liberal vs. conservative, because they both have it wrong as far as I’m concerned. It’s about the fact that when you have elementary school children facing grown-up issues and their parents aren’t willing to deal with it, this isn’t the time to have a “you need to take responsibility for your own child” attitude.

By J

August 29, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

Can we please stop beating the “we have so many students taking the test that it makes us look bad” trope to death? It’s a crap argument - as has already been pointed out, there are 10 states with higher percentages of test-takers that perform as well or better than Georgia students on the SAT.

The fact is this: the state does almost NOTHING to enforce rigorous academic standards at the local level. Sure, there’s a state-mandated curriculum, but there is no real enforcement mechanism to make sure schools are following it. This is what’s called “local control”. It should be called “selling childrens’ futures short with watered-down education so we can look good statistically and make everyone feel good about the useless A’s and B’s we’re handing out.”

The numbers tell the real story: - 40% dropout rate. - 2/3 of HOPE Scholarship students losing eligibility in the first year of college. - Below-average college completion and degree-holding rates. - State-administered tests with ever-increasing scores, while national measures (NAEP, SAT scores, etc) remain stagnant or decline.

I’m not saying the kids are dumb, or the teachers are lazy parasites. What I’m saying is that Georgia, as a whole, is simply not serious about providing quality education. It’s embarrasing, and it should be.

By Othello

August 29, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

First, I’ll generalize: …The primary objective of education in this country is to ensure that young people become adults capable of sustaining themselves and their families and become contributing members of society.

Just imagine if this was your past Friday and Saturday: we get our hair cut, drop off drycleaning, buy our Grande Soy Chai Latte from Starbucks, or go through the drive through at Dunkin Donuts. Maybe we took our car to the shop for repairs, went to lunch at our favorite cafe or upscale restaurant. Went to the dentist and picked up the kids from daycare, and went to the grocery store to buy groceries for dinner. Once you got home, you found a package on your front door left by the FedEx guy - which by the way contained the tulip bulbs you plan on having your landscaper plant for you in as part of your plans to paint your house and put it up for sale with your real estate agent next week.

Most of the jobs I described are well-paying jobs that do NOT require a college degree. Many pay significantly more than white collar office jobs. Not everyone can be “in-charge”. everyone of thos jobs are essential to our daily lilving. My goodness, what on earth would Alpharetta housewives and husbands do if they really had to doo all of that stuff themselves??

And that’s all I got to say about that!

By SW

August 29, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this

Michelle - I paid for most of my college education myself (a 4-year scholarship and other smaller scholarships, employment and loans) and my parents contributed very little, so I don’t have to justify my educational choices to my parents. Once again, it all goes back to choices…

By Cletus

August 29, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

Wow 46th is an improvement? We need some serious work.Some of the problem has to be the teachers,My Mom taught almost 40 yrs so I know its not all bad teachers.At the same time the teacher is the only one with direct contact with the students.The only way to improve is in the teachers hands,they will need some serious backing.I’m aware there is a shortage of teachers,still theres a few teachers simply marking time until something better comes along, they get married or whatever and they have no reason to care

By JB

August 29, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this

The SAT and other tests are BIAS AND WILL Always be BIAS written by whie people not for people of color!!!

By Billy

August 29, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

I’ll step up to defend Janine. On the surface, I was the ideal college candidate. Played sports, active in clubs, high B average in honors classes…high 1400s on the SAT. I should not have gone to college. Not right out of high school, anyway.

I had no idea what I wanted to do. As such, I had no motivation to do anything. I went to college because being in my family, that’s what you do. Big mistake. I went to Tech, realized I really didn’t care for math (not a good thing at a school that requires at least Calc III for almost every degree), quit going to class, and flunked out, losing HOPE for the rest of my college career.

Had my high school offered a wider variety of classes I might have had a better idea of what my major should have been. Had my parents and I talked more about it I might have realized that they wouldn’t be too terribly disappointed in me had I chosen not to go right away. Had my high school offered more in the way of vocational instruction that could have been taken concurrently with the college prep track, I might have learned a useful job skill. As it was, I had no job skills and didn’t know what to do as far as my education was concerned.

Anyway, college was the wrong choice for me at the time. It would have been nice to have some bettetr guidance counseling to help bring that to light.

By Loves to Read

August 29, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this

JB : Give me a break. Quit playing the race card about everything. I suppose you think there should be different tests until the kids can get one that is for “them?” Waaa, waaa…

By kw

August 29, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this

I’m sorry SW. I was finished with this blog until your last entry. Why can’t the parents be held accountable? You know why they can’t pass the SAT when they are in high school (which by the way is what this blog is all about)? Because some or most of the parents in my classroom will not even sit down for 10 minutes per night to read with their child. I have my Master’s degree in Reading and Literacy and it is a proven fact that just 10 minutes per night will increase a child’s level of reading. Should parents not even be held accountable for that? Why can’t they help them with their homework. I have 20 children in my room and I can’t possible give them the individual attention they need. Why am I expected to give them that attention when their own parents will not? If we don’t hold the parents accountable, their children will turn out the same way. By the way, you must have missed the part where I said that DEFACS is a frequent visitor to my school. I am a very aware teacher and send my children daily to the counselor to talk over personal issues. I would never ever keep a child in harm’s way. As for you jim d, you found me out. I am a product of a private education. Maybe I do belong in a private school. If expecting parents to do their job of parenting can only be found in a private school, then maybe that is where I belong. Can you help me find a job?

By Kevin

August 29, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

Don’t believe these statistics. They are wrong for most states. Georgia’s test results actually reflect the abilities of the students. This is not the case with most other states. The scores posted by states like California are wrong. In California, they do not test all the students. They choose some students, let them take the test, and then report the average. Georgia tests all students. Many other states are committing the same farce test reporting that California does. If you know someone who lives in California, just ask them.

By Brian

August 29, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this

The Teacher Unions say “THEY (OPPS THE SCHOOLS) NEED MORE MONEY”. The teachers are not making more money, the people making more money are the teacher union. Guess who is the one to suffer from this?

Your Children

A School Voucher program would drastically improve these test scores. Competition is very healthy and it would start holding people accountable. The teacher union says that eduction should not be a competition, but yet someone publishes statistics on Test Scores. Universities publish test scores for their graduates and incoming students.

Who watches their favorite team, driver, American Idol Contestant COMPETE or TV? In general most people like to compete, unless they do not want to held accountable for a poor result.

Their is nothing wrong with competition, it is the difference between the United States of America and a Communist Country.

By CB

August 29, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

I haven’t read this entire blog, but has anyone noted that, overall, the latest SAT scores generated the biggest score decline in 31 years? Given that, being #46 isn’t really an improvement.

By michelle

August 29, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

jim d:

please read the part in parentheses where i said i had athletic and academic scholarships to offset the rest of my education expenses. i attended a private out of state college, which at the time the tuition was around $16K a year if i remember correctly.

and i never said that $25K was bad…you’re absolutely correct. however, that $25K was money well-spent since i have these lifelong friendships and the whole college experience deal going on. oh, not to mention that my psychology degree works extremely well in an accounting office setting. the only reason i went to a 4yr school was for my athletic ability and BECAUSE IT WAS POUNDED INTO MY SKULL THAT I HAD TO GO TO COLLEGE TO BE SUCCESSFUL. i’d have much rather gone to a tech/voc school and learned some trade skills because hard manual labor is what i actually enjoy doing and i really hated school and lectures. i learn much better hands-on than listening to an instructor read from the same textbook i have, but dekalb tech and lanier tech don’t give soccer scholarships….

which also compells me to address another poster’s comment regarding removing the athletic programs from schools. did you ever stop to think that those high-priced colleges you’re making your kids go to offer athletic scholarships so YOU don’t have to pay for their school? perhaps being a professional athlete is not a realistic aspiration for many, many kids. but those same kids are also getting free college, half-free college, or some sort of minute scholarship.

and to SW: i have to justify some of it to my parents. read what i’ve written above…if i didn’t have scholarships, work study, student loans, and the jobs i had, my parents would’ve paid over $60K. in reality, they only came out paying a little over $5K a year.

By michelle

August 29, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

oops…i meant a little over $6K a year….my mistake!

By Ron

August 29, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

As for the comments regrading the new rankings, please take into accoun that the states do not compete on a level field. Some of the higher state scores are based on a VERY small number of students taking the SAT. As for Georgia, the metropolitan area students take more SAT’s yearly than the entire state of Iowa. The scores get a bit watered down when schools also push that ALL students (Gifted through Remedial course) take the exam as a gauge for Annual Yearly Progress standards. Yes, we are low. But take the total number of kids taking the tests in these mid-western states, and then compare the same number of Georgia’s top scores, and there is no comparison. Georgia can match anyone. One side note: Norway (the leading SAT scoring nation in the world), had as few as 13 students taking the SAT in 2004. Guess where they went to school? The good ole USA…imagine that!
Too bad and sad that the AJC has an agenda that does not support the current educational system in Georgia. If this were a balanced venue, then the true nature of the statistics would be presented as well.

By dale dhillon

August 29, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

Rather a sad commentary on the “State” of our education system in a absolute sense. Consider the competition, India and China, a large volume of people, low-cost, with an emphasis on education to get ahead. Are these non-performing children going to end up working in service industries as the Chinese and Indians visit and vacation here. Our government is not serious about education, our media rather spend 2 weeks talking about some weirdo accosted in Thailand and returned home. You know where we’re headed when it comes to competitiveness, it doesn’t look pretty!

By Swangirl

August 29, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this

I would like to concur with those who feel that a four-year college is not always the best path. Certainly, I think for many it is. The plumber example was given earlier and I totally agree. My cousin hated high school because it wasn’t hands on. But he loved math and engineering when used in an everyday fashion. He’d have never made it in college

He ended up apparenticing as a plumber and became a licensed electrician along the way. He’s now making more money that the rest of us who have BAs and MAs, and lives in a beautiful house he helped build himself. He loves what he does. I think few would call him a failure.

By jim d

August 29, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this

KW.

you can find links to the 66 in the metro area here.

http://privateschool.about.com/od/atlant1/

By JustMe

August 29, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this

“Georgia has escaped the cellar on the SATs”

Ummmm - excuse me? 5th from last is “escaping the cellar”??? Get real, lady! 46th is nothing to be proud of or brag about.

By jim d

August 29, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this

Ron,

If we must consider the number of students in Iowa taking the test then we must consider the entire population of Iowa is somewhat less than the population of the metro atlanta area.

By Mario from Decatur

August 29, 2006 03:35 PM | Link to this

The state of Georgia should not be proud of being ranked 46th in the country in terms of this test. This further shows that mediocrity is acceptance in our educational culture.

We should aim to be in the top 10, if not the top 5. Governor Perdue should not be proud of these results, nor should the State School Superintendent Kathy Cox. Its time for parents to wake up and push their children to learn more then the required state cirrculum. Parents need to take a more proactive role in their children’s education. Teach your kids how to recall details without having to use multiple choice to derive an answer.

If government schools cannot get the job done, then its time to educate our children in private schools.

By V for Vendetta

August 29, 2006 03:35 PM | Link to this

I know, the states don’t compete, the rankings aren’t fair, it’s not an accurate judgement, blah, blah, blah.

Listen, we wouldn’t be so upste about it if we were #1 now would we? I understand that it is not totally accurate, and that we force a lot of kids to take the SAT who shouldn’t, but whose fault is that!? We are exactly where we deserve to be. For every Gwinnett County, there are literally twenty others who are full of kids who couldn’t count to ten if it jumped off the page and bit them in the chest plate.

Not to say that Gwinnett is free of rampant stupidity, but you get the idea.

The bottom line is this: these results are yet another pointless way to measure our kids and our state. Measurements are great and all, but they don’t improve anything.

By been there

August 29, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this

KW, I have been where you are. I was frustrated with the lack of parental support, the children, everything. I didn’t return to teaching.

I am much happier in an office environment, working with adults who want to be there. Granted, I didn’t have my master’s degree (and I had no student loans b/c I was a proud recipient of HOPE).

I don’t feel like my education degree was “wasted” b/c I can use a lot of the Child Development info when I have my own kids.

KW, if you can’t take the heat, then quit. I no longer sit in my car, almost in tears, dreading to walk into the building to work. I go in happily, sip my coffee, even go to the rest room when I have to. ANY TIME I FEEL LIKE IT.

You can do the same. Sure, I don’t have as many holidays and time off, but the peace of mind is worth it to me.

Don’t end up like a lot of educators, who are miserable shells of their former selves. I was getting bitter and I wasn’t doing the children any good. So I said Goodbye.

Thank God I got married and got to escape the madness!

By BlindHomer

August 29, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this

The higher percentage of test takers plus the higher percentage of lower scoring blacks (about 28% I think) skew the state-to-state comparisons. SET - I almost always agree with you, but you have to be careful with the decline/improvement analysis. I’m pretty sure the SAT was “re-normed” sometime in the late 80’s or early 90’s. For one thing, they took out the calculus. I think this means a 1300 in 1970 was equivalent to about 1390 today.

By Kevin

August 29, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this

I quite agree with Janine’s comment. Not everyone should feel pressured to go to college. Presently, it does not appear that we offer any realistic alternatives for students to learn a trade which we as a society need to respect and encourage.

Perhaps a test at the end of the freshman year in high school would help kids to decide whether they want to spend the last three years trying to stay in school or learn a trade that they might be happier with and we as a society need. Again, trade is not a nasty five letter word.

However, for those student who desire to go on to college, we as a society must encourage these student to become better readers. And a lot of that repsonsibility has to be with the student. As a parent, I can ensure that my child has a proper place to study but it is up to that child to put forth the effort to become a better reader.

By one more thing

August 29, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this

College only teaches you how to do as you’re told and follow directions.

If you can turn in that paper to the professor’s specifications (correct format, spacing, word count,) then you will do fine in college, and in life.

Of course you need half a brain to memorize content and make connections, but it’s really not that hard.

All a degree shows an employer is that you were willing to jump through hoops and follow precise instructions.

And that’s all any employer really needs, right?

By Dan

August 29, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

Even if you accept that some states have a lower % taking the test. (and it is hard to believe some only have 6%) Many who point it our are assumeing it is the top 6% taking it, when common sense would suggest that if the SAT is not the primary test in the state, most of the top kids would not be taking it. They would take the primary test. Even given all of that we are 46th!!!! Even if you accept the whining about level field where does that put us 40 35 still bottom half. Making these excuses is what they call putting lipstick on a pig

By Play that funky music whiteboy

August 29, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this

Those of you posting things like how sad this is (in my best Buford Pusser voice) “must not be from around here”. This is HUGE. We have been stuck in the bottom three for as long as I can remember and had been on decline up until this report. For the first time, it looks like our transplants kids are finally making a difference. Yeah, I said it, and I’m a fifth generation on both sides Georgian. With all the people from other parts of the country, where they have traditionally put more emphasis on education (Northeast and West), coming here in droves over the past 10 years - their kids had to eventually get to SAT age and take the test. Excellence through immigration - keep on coming in folks, we love you - just bring some jobs with you too.

By Janine

August 29, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

@CB HOW RIGHT YOU ARE.! Considering that SAT scores suffered the biggest decline in the past 31 years is an issue that needs to be addressed. It is a much more significant problem than state by state scores, which, as another poster pointed out, is comparing apples to oranges.Someone earlier mentioned disaggregated scores…by ethnic groups,etc…it has always been true that if the top 10% of public school students’ SAT cores are compared to the SAT scores of private school students, there is no significant difference..and that is more like an “apples to apples ” comparison .

By Vicki

August 29, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this

Is it that Gerogia’s score are going up or is it the gain from the rest of the country’s scores going down?

By dan

August 29, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

Since I’ve lived here, I’ve worked in Clayton, Forsyth, Fulton and Gwinnett counties and interiewed hundreds of kids and parents from schools in those plus surrounding areas. Only a few school have reading lists in the summer. Excuse me? Learning is year-round. Predictably the school with decent lists are in Alpharetta, Dunwoody (havent worked in Cobb yet) and the privates. How about homework time? You don’t want too much makework but more thought-provoking assignments…but 2-3 hours sounds right. Obviously that depends on the school and the classes but Ive been able to see some patterns based on the county districts. How does this play into the SAT score? I’m not sure. I’m more concerned about another generation of kids-turned-adults with little appreciation of reading, world culture and geography, arts and music (not Rubin (?sp) Studdard)…too much Joe Tereshinsky and not enough Stravinsky. I’m not trying to be snotty either. Just realistic.

By pat

August 29, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this

Robert H …take the metro Atlanta scores out of the picture and north Georgia scores would help everyone. More importantly, put the private south and middle school scores in and watch the scores soar! Georgia has an out of proportion enrollment for private schools in middle and south Georgia! It reminds me of Mississippi.

By Maria

August 29, 2006 04:25 PM | Link to this

Why am I not surprised?

By lynn d

August 29, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

Hey, Patti….

Don’t the state scores include every child who takes the test (including public, private and homeschool)?

I think they do, right?

By Calvin G. Sims, Sr.

August 29, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

The trouble in education in America is not with the schools or with testing. The trouble wit education in America is with our culture. American culture promote manic consumerism and discourages education and achievement. Black children don’t participate in clas because to do so means that they are acting white. White children don’t strive because to do so means that they are a geek. Even this blog, if you look to the left, you will see a list of very usefule resources for education listed under the heading, “Links for Geeks.” This is just the surface of our problem. I don’t know why certain states perform poorly and others relatively beter, but on a whole, American students, when compared to other cultures, are failing in unacceptable numbers. Read more about cases and solutions in my new book, Link:“When the Student is Ready, the Teacher Will Appear” available at amazon.com, barnesand noble.com or Link:Journal of American Freedom.

By Braves66

August 29, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this

I have always heard that kids that have no intention of going to college were made to take the SAT. That in itself will kill Georgia’s rating. You are also figuring in numbers from inner-urban schools that have always scored poorly, which will also hurt Georgia’s scores & give the appearance that all schools in GA are lacking. Not true!!!

By Joe

August 29, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this

I think it’s pretty obvious that the black schools are the reason Georgia ranks so low. What are we going to do about it? Throw more money at a problem thats impossible to solve???

By Toby Cash

August 29, 2006 05:17 PM | Link to this

Just two thoughts…I wonder what our SAT scores would be like if only the kids that were planning on going to college were to take the test, and it would be simply terrific if PARENTS became more involved with their kids and school. Teachers cannot do it all.

By dunwoodydad

August 29, 2006 05:24 PM | Link to this

Well, looks like all the NCLB thug transfers to Dunwoody High have trashed that school - what an abysmal SAT score. Plus… now we even get to enjoy a gang problem!

It’s off to private school for us!

By ELLE

August 29, 2006 05:25 PM | Link to this

@Joe: You are an IDIOT! Thank goodness you are not in charge of any “decision making!”

By CoolestTeacher

August 29, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this

I congratulate our students on their SAT scores. Our ranking is never going to come up significantly as long as we test over 60% of our students and many states test less than 10%. As more and more post-secondary institutions accept alternate tests, maybe we will see a decline, but don’t expect anything drastic until some major changes take place. I saw a study recently that compared test scores in comparison to the percentage of students tested, and that would rank us nationally at 29th!

By fedup

August 29, 2006 05:31 PM | Link to this

Here’s how to solve the SAT problem. Make everyone pay for it. Even the FRL kids can come up with the money for the SAT if they are serious about college if they really want it. I see FRL kids riding around in new SUVs all the time so the money exists. If they can afford a cell phone, they can find the money for the test.

Otherwise kids who have no intention of going to college are taking it and using it like a lottery ticket - hoping that if they guess everything right they will luck out. I actually had a kid tell me that once. He didn’t even read the dern test.

By jxu66

August 29, 2006 05:42 PM | Link to this

Wow, Dunwoody High school’s SAT is very poor. It is in very upscale neighborhood. Very surprising.

By GB

August 29, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

Elle thinks @Joe is an idiot because he sees what is obvious but seldom mentioned. Anyone looking at the numbers from Ga and other states can see there are two principal reasons that Ga “ranks” low: (1) large numbers of Ga students take the test (the reporter’s article cites this) and (2) Ga has a large population of blacks (the AJC does not like to discuss this).

To Elle it is idiotic to think about some unpleasant facts, but facts they are. Blacks in Ga and in EVERY state score on average far below whites. Under the old 1600 point system the gap was about 200 points. There is a national problem. Blacks do poorly in school. In Ga and in NY, in SC and Ore. Everywhere. A state with a large number of black students will tend to have a lower average than a state with a smaller number of blacks.

By mmcburton

August 29, 2006 05:59 PM | Link to this

One more time people: the northeastern states (NJ on up to Maine) have a higher percentage of SAT test takers than GA and they score much higher. No more of this 70% take the test whining because the above states take it at a 78-85% rate. Quite simply, they value education over football and bible thumping (textbook stickers anyone?). Call it an every child can learn outlook. Call it not being racist. Call it investing in public education, whatever. Thank god we can build cheap McMansions for 250K and draw east coasters down here to drive our economy.

By Cornholio

August 29, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

To those out there that want to make this a political issue. It appears that Georgia, under Republican stewardship, is at least heading in the right direction.

After 200 years of one-party rule by the Democrats, Georgia could easily be found at the very bottonm, fighting it out with S. Carolina and Mississippi.

I’m willing to give the Republicans further support, as long as there are results.

As for Pennsylvania, that does not surprise me. I used to live there and most of thoser folks are as dumb as mud.

By Cornholio

August 29, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

To those out there that want to make this a political issue. It appears that Georgia, under Republican stewardship, is at least heading in the right direction.

After 200 years of one-party rule by the Democrats, Georgia could easily be found at the very bottonm, fighting it out with S. Carolina and Mississippi.

I’m willing to give the Republicans further support, as long as there are results.

As for Pennsylvania, that does not surprise me. I used to live there and most of thoser folks are as dumb as mud.

By Cornholio

August 29, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

To those out there that want to make this a political issue. It appears that Georgia, under Republican stewardship, is at least heading in the right direction.

After 200 years of one-party rule by the Democrats, Georgia could easily be found at the very bottonm, fighting it out with S. Carolina and Mississippi.

I’m willing to give the Republicans further support, as long as there are results.

As for Pennsylvania, that does not surprise me. I used to live there and most of thoser folks are as dumb as mud.

By GTs

August 29, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

To jenny, if u can’t scare higher than those asians, it is a virtue to just admit you are stupid.

By GTs

August 29, 2006 06:03 PM | Link to this

To jenny, if u can’t scare higher than those asians, it is a virtue to just admit you are not good enough. does it ring the bell? maybe stupid?

By KW

August 29, 2006 06:08 PM | Link to this

I can say with a frown on my face and an empty bank account that college isn’t all it is cracked up to be. I have spent tens of thousands of dollars to become an educator with a Master’s degree and I couldn’t be more miserable. I have taught in private school, public high school and elementary. It is all the same. The kids have gotten so disruptive and disrespectful that it is impossible for me to do my job. It is a war every day that I walk into the classroom. I have children who simply won’t do their work. I have some who sleep through class, and some who spend the entire class bullying other kids. My degree is not in child psychology. I am just there to teach. In other words, I want out. I wish I had gotten a certificate as a hair dresser. I could make just as much money and make my own hours. I went in thinking that I would be the savior to all of these poor lost kids. Guess what, when they get home, it is all undone. They go home to abuse, meth addicts, filthy homes, and hunger. There are too many to help now. It is either them or me. This is my last year. I need to get into the real world and out of prison. If your a new teacher, I suggest run while you still can. The scores want get any better because the lack of caring is their.

By Tony

August 29, 2006 06:14 PM | Link to this

What do you expect from a state where schools are advocating for removal of evolution in text books? Intelligence is definitely lacking…

By Matt

August 29, 2006 06:17 PM | Link to this

The 46 is incredibly misleadin. In some of the states above us on the list as few as 40% or less (the smartest 40%) students take the SATs.

By SET

August 29, 2006 06:21 PM | Link to this

Blind Homer: Yes I understand that the SAT was re-normed to add 100 points to the current test takers. If my generation tries to compare with the current on we have to add 100 points to our older scores for comparison to the current kid’s scores.

By Tony

August 29, 2006 06:25 PM | Link to this

One more thing, I see that a few of the dumb folks from the state have indicated on this blog that blacks contribute to the lower scores. Lets think here for a minute (this may be difficult for some of the folks here). If we removed blacks from the equation, would Georgia suddenly be top 5 in the country? It is scary the scale at which common sense is lacking. Also, if one looks at the Metro area scores by area (including the “very white” areas), the scores are still unimpressive. Lets not look for stupid excuses but start “de-dumbing” ourselves and looking for viable solutions to improve our intellectual capacity and those of our kids…..

By chicagomom

August 29, 2006 06:29 PM | Link to this

to GB Obviously there’s a trend with blacks scoring less on SAT’s in every state. My sister was a high school teacher in a poor mostly black neighborhood. The only time she ever had been able to speak with any parents is when they call her and complain about their child receiving a F in class. When she tells them that junior never did any homework nor could even stay awake in class because “I be hangin with my boys all night” they still say that junior doesn’t deserve that grade and she should change it (and the parents never even knew that junior was in that class.)At one point she was being stalked by the father of a football playing senior who had yet to pass freshman english for the forth year in a row because he yet, again for the forth time flunked. He held a knife to her throat and said she was ruining his boy’s chance for college since he was on a sports scholarship and needed to pass for his full ride. Maybe black families need to wake up and realize that the home environments that they do nothing to discourage from are not a “phase” and not cool, that they do impact much more. By the way, I did not attend college and I make more than my Master’s degree possesing sister, and yes we are a black family.

By Producer

August 29, 2006 06:45 PM | Link to this

Let’s face facts.

We’ve been near the bottom of the dumpster for 40 years. Whether it’s the SAT, ABC, CSI, XYZ, whatever test that’s ever been given, we’re horrid!

You can talk black, white or indian chiefs. Our results speak for themselves. 40 years!!!

There’s only one real reason. Our kids don’t measure up intellectually. They are simply not as smart or capable.

Thanks God the world needs folks to work the drive thru.

By catlady

August 29, 2006 06:45 PM | Link to this

Anyone want to comment on grade inflation? What puzzles me is all these kids with 3.0+ who can only manage a 900 SAT.

I did a research study on the effects of the HOPE scholarship and one funny thing that emerged from the interviews with high school counselors is they ALL (those that I interviewed) claimed there was no grade inflation at their school, but at the high school down the road, there sure was! After about the 10th time hearing that, I had to laugh.

While we certainly have some very bright, well-motivated students in Georgia, we sure have “modified” the curriculum to make eveyone “successful” and this is an issue that confirms that.

By SET

August 29, 2006 07:01 PM | Link to this

Tony: Your post doesn’t make sense. You seem to be saying that the low average black score either doesn’t exist (it does) or isn’t a factor in the overall low GA scores (it is). The fact if it is one, that GA whites alone don’t place in the top five for the US states is irrelevant when the discussion is what to do about GA being in the bottom - not falling out of the top 5.

Sad but true, large groups of black children from wealthy families (over 80K a year?) consistently score lower from large groups of children of poor whites (under 15k a year?) in virtually every test of intellectual function. The gap is most noticable at puberty and increases with age. One can debate the reason for the gap, not the existance of it. Google “racial intelligence gap” or similar words and start reading.

A similar gap exists between Asian/Jewish test takers and Whites. That’s the main reason for legacy points & preferences at the Ivy League Schools. Without them those schools were faced with becoming Jewish-dominated in the mid 20th century. When the Jewish caps on admission failed due to the applicants changing their names to Anglo names, the Legacy system (with little or no limits) were applied which is Affirmative Action for WASPs (who can’t compete well in an open system).

So what does society do for the time being about this situation? Most people have an idea about my approach to things.

No amount of crying “racist” and whining about it can suppress the truth. NCLB was deliberately set up to broadcast the numbers all over the world, not that they weren’t common knowledge already to psychometricians. However all this ends up it will be interesting. The legal banning of Affirmative Action in CA has removed the last protections WASPs had at the UC School of Engineering. And even with the Legacy Points our law schools (And Med Schools?)are getting pretty Kosher. Maybe you haven’t had this happen in GA yet.

Really nobody is getting what they want. Funny how things work out.

The competition just gets going at puberty. The real differences emerge full force in adulthood.

Brave New World

By Nikole

August 29, 2006 07:02 PM | Link to this

GB-The ajc does not report on the overabundance of blacks in Georgia, because it is untrue. Blacks make up no more than 30% of Georgia’s population.

The black community does need to work on increasing test scores for our children, that takes time, commitment, and resources. I applaud those that don’t just complain on blogs, but actually develop solutions and act upon those solutions.

By SET

August 29, 2006 07:09 PM | Link to this

Producer: It’s not just work the drive through. There are a lot of functions the SAT doesn’t measure that have commercial value. IQ is not everything and may be toxic at certain levels. Properly raised and trained, all Americans can find a place for themselves in this society if our government doesn’t destroy things for all of us with it’s open borders treason.

Many jobs exclude candidates if their test scores are too high. You do best at many occupations if you are within a certain band of scores, not too high or too low.

And if one’s parents are at a certain level, the children or grandchildren may rise. Prenatal and early childhood nutrition are believed critical as well as good public schools. We have to do more as a society for our future generations. Maybe that’s why we all blog and debate here. What should happen now and in the future?

By jeanwalsh

August 29, 2006 07:09 PM | Link to this

Or how about someone from out of state obviously much smarter (2300 SAT) than the GA breed student and getting deflated? I had my kid take the SAT just so I could fight the bias at the high school. I say they should get rid of class rank because the kid breed and taught in GA is just being held up like its some god given right.

By rimmer

August 29, 2006 07:19 PM | Link to this

I think some have it wrong. The SAT’s aren’t paid for in GA it’s the PSAT’s that are and that’s a whole other equation. I never understand why I keep reading that everyone in GA is made to take the SAT’s because its paid for. Because if the state pays for the SATS we’ve yet to hear about it. Get your facts straight.

By VERITAS

August 29, 2006 07:22 PM | Link to this

States that traditionally score highest are ones that are predominantly white, with few Blacks and immigrants from south of the border.

I dare the liberal do-gooders and conservative knee-jerk reactionaries to break down the SAT scores by race. It would be quite revealing.

By VERITAS

August 29, 2006 07:22 PM | Link to this

States that traditionally score highest are ones that are predominantly white, with few Blacks and immigrants from south of the border.

I dare the liberal do-gooders and conservative knee-jerk reactionaries to break down the SAT scores by race. It would be quite revealing.

By HSPRINCIPAL

August 29, 2006 07:27 PM | Link to this

As a high school principal, I would like to invite every person with a solution or opinion to get active in his/her local high school. A good start may be to visit www.teachgeorgia.com. There are always vacancies posted there. Become the catalyst…rather than casting doubt and placing blame on teachers, administrators, and students, roll your sleeves up and get dirty with us instead of throwing dirt at us. When you are where the rubber meets the road, then you can start analyzing root causes and making a difference. Remember, statistics can be manipulated to say anything. My teachers will tell you…at my school, excuses are not accepted, solutions are. You will never see my faculty or me place blame on a single entity. It takes everyone WORKING TOGETHER in a collegial, productive environment.

I look forward to receiving some of your applications!

By VERITAS

August 29, 2006 07:41 PM | Link to this

Ignorant, uneducated people produce even more ignorant, uneducated people. It is generational !

Chances are your brightest, highest scoring students are products of a two-parent household, grounded in values and morals, with a religious foundation in their lives, much to the chagrin of the modern Democratic Party.

By VERITAS

August 29, 2006 07:41 PM | Link to this

Ignorant, uneducated people produce even more ignorant, uneducated people. It is generational !

Chances are your brightest, highest scoring students are products of a two-parent household, grounded in values and morals, with a religious foundation in their lives, much to the chagrin of the modern Democratic Party.

By VERITAS

August 29, 2006 07:41 PM | Link to this

Ignorant, uneducated people produce even more ignorant, uneducated people. It is generational !

Chances are your brightest, highest scoring students are products of a two-parent household, grounded in values and morals, with a religious foundation in their lives, much to the chagrin of the modern Democratic Party.

By Chopdawg

August 29, 2006 07:59 PM | Link to this

Veritas, that’s the most ridiculous post I’ve read so far today…guess my daughter, a child of divorced parents who graduated from a public school and who happens to be 25 years old and working on her doctorate at UCSB—and who never voted for a Republican so far in her young life—must be the exception to your overly generalized rule (your handle’s “Veritas”? That’s a joke, right?)

CHOP

By Laf

August 29, 2006 08:06 PM | Link to this

education for Georgia students.

By Brett

August 29, 2006 08:17 PM | Link to this

What we are dealing with here is a obloquy of government schooling that started in the 1970s. As the relative of a former 6th grade teacher in those days through the early 1980s, I have heard all the stories of how the NEA (Democrat voters, most) controlled everything she did in the classroom as well as out of it.

She couldn’t discipline. She couldn’t punish. She couldn’t teach certain aspects of civics. Everything in her curriculum was monitored. After all, a child’s self-esteem is more important than actually learning! Then, what really set her off was the great liberal idea of “social promotion” where she had to adjust her curriculum to allow the slower kids to catch up and/or give a passing grade to individuals who were not up to snuff. This came from the top down.

Like many other teachers, she got fed up with the system and left teaching. The liberals have taken over our schools and now our universities. Indoctrination is the name, and becoming a liberal is the game. If you can’t pass, don’t worry young lad, the government will be there to help you out after your supposed graduation. Who needs to read when you’ll be allocated that “livable wage” after all. What, we worry? Just vote Democrat. All problems solved, and don’t worry about China passing us by. After all, the “village” is more important than the individual, and certainly more important than any future economic threats, which will always become military threats down the road. Oh yes, the wonderful feel-good world of Liberal Utopia.

By pat

August 29, 2006 08:17 PM | Link to this

To the person who said it depends where in Cobb you live to get a better education I say look in the mirror. If you are a parent you can put value on education above other outside school activities and you will see an improvement. Take a look at the list of schools with high scores. It is not insignificant that a certain demographic scores high on these tests. It is the family STUPID that makes the difference in a child’s education. It’s not teachers and it is not economics. I say one leads to the other. Good education leads to good economics. Ask the Vietnamese community that immigrated to America. They know how to succeed. It is right in front of your face but you are too embarrassed to admit it.

By Brett

August 29, 2006 08:19 PM | Link to this

What we are dealing with here is a obloquy of government schooling that started in the 1970s. As the relative of a former 6th grade teacher in those days through the early 1980s, I have heard all the stories of how the NEA (Democrat voters, most) controlled everything she did in the classroom as well as out of it.

She couldn’t discipline. She couldn’t punish. She couldn’t teach certain aspects of civics. Everything in her curriculum was monitored. After all, a child’s self-esteem is more important than actually learning! Then, what really set her off was the great liberal idea of “social promotion” where she had to adjust her curriculum to allow the slower kids to catch up and/or give a passing grade to individuals who were not up to snuff. This came from the top down.

Like many other teachers, she got fed up with the system and left teaching. The liberals have taken over our schools and now our universities. Indoctrination is the name, and becoming a liberal is the game. If you can’t pass, don’t worry young lad, the government will be there to help you out after your supposed graduation. Who needs to read when you’ll be allocated that “livable wage” after all. What, we worry? Just vote Democrat. All problems solved, and don’t worry about China passing us by. After all, the “village” is more important than the individual, and certainly more important than any future economic threats, which will always become military threats down the road. Oh yes, the wonderful feel-good world of Liberal Utopia.

By Janine

August 29, 2006 08:22 PM | Link to this

@SET…..WEre you aware that the Ivy League schools now have a limit on the number of Asians they accept…just like they and even Emory U. had a limit on Jews admitted to their med schools in the 60’s

By Emma

August 29, 2006 08:31 PM | Link to this

I despise the SAT and ACT. I’m a high school senior, so I’ve taken both and I got fairly good scores, but they’re nowhere near perfect. I did better on the ACT, though, because it tests you differently. The SAT has too many sections (ten) and it only tests your ability to spew out information, not to think critically or anything. I also think it’s absurd that our high schools basically expect everyone to take these tests. Not everyone can think in the strange, overly-logical way that the SAT and ACT require and (gasp) not everyone is going to go to college (shocker, I know). Perhaps if we realized that, we could climb a little bit in the rankings.

By dave

August 29, 2006 08:49 PM | Link to this

One thing I can say about the school system here in Georgia is that it truly it WAY behind the schools from up north. We moved here 4 years ago and my YANKEE son was a B- student at his old school in the suburbs of New York City (Long Island). When he entered school here we noticed he became an A- student, and he put it in his own words “without even trying”. He studied less and got better grades. He also observed that almost all the best students in his class were like him, northern transplants. I would feel really sorry for a student from Georgia moving up to NY or Conn. They would not be able to handle the work they are doing up there. I’ll just some it up that, the teachers don’t expect as much and don’t challange the students here. The attitues of southern parents need to change if they want the schools to be better. They need to push their children a little harder and make them do their homework and study. Some may be born smarter then others, some are better at sports then others, etc. But when the state as a whole is consistantly at the bottom of the list, the problem lies within. The only way to fix it is to emulate what they are doing in the states at the TOP of the list every year. If you strive to be the best and learn from the best, you can BE the best. EMULATE THE SCHOOLS IN THE YANKEE STATES!

By Laf

August 29, 2006 09:08 PM | Link to this

By karen

August 30, 2006 08:08 AM | Link to this

The average score on the reading and math portions of the newly expanded SAT showed the largest decline in 31 years, according to a report released yesterday by the College Board on the performance of the high school class of 2006.

The drop confirmed earlier reports from puzzled college officials that they were seeing lower scores from applicants. The average score on the critical reading portion of the SAT, formerly known as the verbal test, fell 5 points, to 503, out of a maximum possible score of 800. The average math score fell 2 points, to 518. Together they amounted to the lowest combined score since 2002.

Officials of the College Board, the nonprofit organization that administers the SAT, dismissed suggestions by numerous high school guidance counselors that students were getting tired out by the new three-part test which now runs three and three-quarters hours, rather than three.

“Fatigue is not a factor,” Wayne Camara, vice president for research and analysis at the College Board said at a news conference. “We are not trying to say that students are not tired. But it is not affecting, on the whole, student performance.”

Instead, the officials attributed the drop to a decline in the number of students who took the exam more than once. The board said 47 percent of this year’s students took the test only once, up from 44 percent last year. The number taking the test three times fell to less than 13 percent from nearly 15 percent.

Students typically gain 14 points a section when they take the test a second time, and another 10 or 11 points a section on the third try.

The SAT writing test includes a 25-minute essay, which counts for about 30 percent of the writing score, and 49 multiple-choice questions on grammar and usage, which count for the rest. The average score on the writing section was 497 out of a possible 800, the board said.

Girls performed better than boys on this section of the exam, averaging 502 versus 491 for boys. That partly offset girls’ lower scores on math and reading, but did not close the longstanding score gap between boy and girls.

Gaston Caperton, the president of the College Board, pointed out that the decline in scores represented less than one-half of a test question in reading and one-fifth of one test question in math. Still it was the largest year to year decline since 1975, and officials expressed concerns about the overall performance of American students.

“The data does suggest that as a nation, critical reading and writing are lagging behind the progress we are making in math,” Mr. Camara said.

The SAT score decline contrasted with the increase in scores on the ACT exam, the other primary college admissions test. This month, ACT reported its biggest score increase in 20 years. The ACT also has a writing section, but it is optional.

Seppy Basili, senior vice president at Kaplan Inc., the education and test preparation company, said the new SAT test undoubtedly affected scores because students were less familiar with it and because fewer students repeated it. But Mr. Basili said he thought the length played a greater role than the College Board acknowledged.

“It is not just that the test is 3 hours and 45 minutes,” he said. “It is that the whole experience is five hours or more,” he said, factoring in things like breaks.

Most states, including New York, New Jersey and Connecticut, saw scores decline in reading and math. In New York, average reading scores fell 4 points to 493 and math scores 1 point to 510. In Connecticut, reading was down 5 points to 512 and math 1 point to 516. In New Jersey, reading fell 7 points to 496 and math 2 points to 515.

In New York City, Joel I. Klein, the chancellor of the education department, said, “My only reaction is, it shows that we have to continue to work harder.”

The number of students taking the SAT nationally fell slightly, by about 10,000 students, to just under 1.5 million, or about 48 percent of more than 3 million students who graduated from high school this year.

At a time when many elite colleges have expressed interest in recruiting more low-income students, the number of students from families earning $30,000 or less who took the SAT fell by more than 13 percent, to 183,317, while the number from families earning $100,000 or more rose 8 percent, to 225,869.

Mr. Camara said that of the information collected about students, the income data was the least reliable. He said he did not know what accounted for the decrease in low-income students taking the test.

Counselors in high schools where the SAT has long dominated, said more of their students were taking the ACT. Some have said that in the wake of the College Board’s disclosure this spring that it had mis-scored more than 5,000 exams, they have urged their students to consider the ACT.

By Jim

August 30, 2006 08:20 AM | Link to this

No Jenny it is the Asians, who more than likely helped to raise the average. These folks take education super serious. Have you been to Gwinnett County lately?

By luvs2teach

August 30, 2006 08:40 AM | Link to this

I think a large part of the decline in the verbal section is not because of schools, per se, but because of the change in children’s literature (which they, in turn, read in school).

Compare a “children’s book” like Treasure Island, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, or Caddie Woodlawn to current children’s literature on the same grade level, and you will find a huge difference in the vocabulary used in the stories.

Reading a lot is shown to improve vocabulary and reading comprehension, but if what they are reading isn’t that challenging, then…well, look at our scores.

By Rob

August 30, 2006 08:43 AM | Link to this

It’s sad that I scored higher on the SAT than GA’s average and that was before the test changed its format. This state will always be near the bottom.

By BettyBoopBBW

August 30, 2006 08:45 AM | Link to this

Do the Math,

Lack of proper resources

Lack of Discipline of children

Lack of interests from the students

Spending more time testing than teaching

Too many distractions (T.V. , Video Games)

Lowering of Moral Levels in Society

Lack of Summer activites for the kids

There is so much more to add….

By Pillsbury Doughboy

August 30, 2006 08:47 AM | Link to this

We were always higher than what we were given credit for. In many (if not most) states, less students take the SAT, with that test being reserved for only the smartest students. In Georgia 70% take it. So let’s get this straight, our smartest 70% against their smartest 10%? Get real people. Georgia is not as bad as you guys make it out to be.

By Susan

August 30, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

Chris pointed out the obvious, Georgia’s average includes rural(low performing) systems along with wealthy Atlanta (high performing) suburbs. The issue of how we fund education and the inequity for rural schools is being pursued by rural schools in the courts. The tax base for agricultural land does not produce sufficient revenue to operate a quality school system. I agree with janine though that not every child needs to go to college. Early on in middle school we should do a better job of helping students and their parents assess a child’s interests, apptitudes and abilities to match to possible rewarding career paths, some of which would require college preparation (technical college, 2 yr or 4yr). Then a student would be in an informed position to seek oppotunities to explore career options through summer employment or job shadowing, etc before having to choose in high school either college prep or technical track. Many of the highest paying jobs can be obtained with a techincal degree and there is no shame if you choose to be employed in a trade.

By Lisa

August 30, 2006 09:42 AM | Link to this

Why are we celebrating 46?

By ESLguy

August 30, 2006 09:48 AM | Link to this

Wow, the grade school system in GA is pathetic. English is my 2nd language and even I scored higher than the GA average. Now I don’t understand the “wordz” coming out of local teens mouth. I bet GA will score in the top 10 if the SAT verbal adds the “street slangs” category. Fo Rizzo

By HWNorth

August 30, 2006 09:52 AM | Link to this

I think the “garbage in garbage out” sums it up. Those that keep coming up with excuses including the AJC ED reporters are in deep denial. I think the small rise in results are from the Asians and the students that have moved here from the North (like mine). When you move to the quote “GA high performing high school” like we did and half of the kids in gifted aren’t even considering going to college you are left to think how backwoods is the mentality here? Well just look at the comments from the teachers posting and the people who are in trades and want to feel good about the fact that they missed out on a real education. People here are defensive about not wanting to be smart and god forbid YOUR kid has any ambitions because usually the teachers and the admin’s are jealous because they have all come from the south. Then you have teachers that tell students that they think its arrogant to even consider applying to one of the top schools because they could get just as good of an education at a community college.

By paul

August 30, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this

A big reason for the low rankings in the South are the high percentage of minority students we have. It wont get better now that we are being overrun by Mexicans.

By sophie

August 30, 2006 10:09 AM | Link to this

I agree with Janine. My son just completed his 5-year pipefitter apprenticeship program. Not only do these people apprentice with an experienced craftsperson, they also attend classes 2 nights a week for 5 years studying blueprint reading, trigonomety, geometry. I wanted him to go to college and he did … for a while. He decided that working inside a “box” like I do, would drive him crazy. So instead he works outside and is currently making about $60,000 a year. Too many young people are told that not going to college means you are a failure. They are told that if they do physical work they are somehow less successful. I always taught my kids that more than likely none of them would become millionaires, but they would have to work every day, so enjoy what you do. Whether you go to college and make $25,000 or choose a craft and make $60,000. Bottom line, be happy.

By Fred Sumner

August 30, 2006 10:09 AM | Link to this

I don’t suppose anyone looked to see what effect was of the USG Regents cancelling the requirement for SAT scores for the 2-year and “lesser” 4-year colleges? That should encourage less able students to NOT take the test, which WILL raise (or limit the lowering of) the average scores.

By Dewaine

August 30, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this

Does this mean that the students can now speak two syllable words?

By Ernest

August 30, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this

karen, at 8:08 am you posted good information however blog etiquette suggests you reference your source. Where did you get this information from?

By jay

August 30, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this

Chuck, are you from Alabama? Please look at the ACT scores again. Alabama might have ranked higher than Georgia on the ACT (42), but only 29% of Georgia students took the ACT ( which is an easier test) compared to Alabama’s 77%. That means that Georgia’s students are challenged to take a much harder test (SAT) then the students in Alabama. In Georgia, 77% percent of the students take the SAT. Look at the students in Mississippi. At least 90% of the students there take the ACT and they are still dead last for the ACT. Less than 10% of their students took the SAT and last year that is why they outscored Georgia. People are correct, the media is not telling the entire truth and Politicians do not know anything about education. They only want you to believe they care because they want your vote. People like you are too easy to influence.

By MMM

August 30, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this

Why does this topic alway get a million posts?

Every year it’s the same rehashed arguments. It doesn’t change the minds of those who think everything is fine, and it doesn’t aid us understanding the actual concrete steps necessary to “fix” our problems.

Yet we have 150+ posts on this blog and can’t manage 20 on the much more concrete subject of whether kids should nap(and whether teachers or systems are empowered to make those decisions).

By ckhatcher

August 30, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this

OH YEA! 46TH!

By Gina

August 30, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this

Being 46th out of 50 isn’t bad, or am I doing my math wrong!

By jenny

August 30, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this

John,There is nothing wrong with the bible belt. I bet many tachers will tell you schools wee a much better to learn before God was removed so to speak. As for genetics John, you must be a Yankee because everyone knows that it is the Alabamians who marry family members and mess up the genetic pool not the Georgians!

By Robert

August 30, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this

It seems that many of us are in denial about the level of education in America. If there is something wrong with the SAT test, change the test because there is certainly a need to have measurable results. When I think about the ability of many of us to show critical thinking skills, I am inclinded to believe the results. Education, innovation and the ability to think critically were some of the major qualities that made this country great and the same will be required to keep us competitive in the world. Many of us will question the test results but you can’t question the fact that we no longer lead the world in manufacturing capability, we have a continuing deficit in trade, our automotive quality is inferior, few items are “made in America” anymore and the list goes on. If inferior education isn’t the thing causing us to loose position versus other countries, we had better figure out what it is and get it corrected.

By Kenneth

August 30, 2006 10:46 AM | Link to this

Why are we putting all this emphasis on these scores? You cannot compare something that is not universal. Yes, the SAT is the most common test that is used in this part of the country; however, in the western region of the United States they take the ACT. Only students who will be applying to eastern schools take the SAT and those tend to be your smarter and more motivated students. In Georgia, most high school students take the SAT, you cannot compare those numbers with the best of the best in the west.

By Kenneth

August 30, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

Why are we putting all this emphasis on these scores? You cannot compare something that is not universal. Yes, the SAT is the most common test that is used in this part of the country; however, in the western region of the United States they take the ACT. Only students who will be applying to eastern schools take the SAT and those tend to be your smarter and more motivated students. In Georgia, most high school students take the SAT, you cannot compare those numbers with the best of the best in the west.

By Kenneth

August 30, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this

Why are we putting all this emphasis on these scores? You cannot compare something that is not universal. Yes, the SAT is the most common test that is used in this part of the country; however, in the western region of the United States they take the ACT. Only students who will be applying to eastern schools take the SAT and those tend to be your smarter and more motivated students. In Georgia, most high school students take the SAT, you cannot compare those numbers with the best of the best in the west.

By jim d

August 30, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this

Jenny,

Whose God was removed and when?

By Robert

August 30, 2006 10:54 AM | Link to this

Yes Gina, you are doing your math wrong! Being number 1 is good and 50 is on the bottom. When you are number 46, only 4 states are below in performance.

By jenny

August 30, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

John, You made the comment about The bible belt and genetics. I really resent that because Soutnern Christians are not stupid or uneducated.

By RA

August 30, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

Ernest, I believe I read that story yesterday on CNN or maybe YAHOO News. I think she has quoted it almost word for word.

By BlindHomer

August 30, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this

Looking at last year’s breakdown by sex and race/ethnicity showed that while blacks score much lower than whites, Georgia whites were well below national white average (10 points lower for math) but Georgia blacks were very close to the black national average. What does that mean? Georgia whites are stupid wading in the shallow end of the gene pool, Georgia does a better job teaching it’s black students, or too many stupid Georgia whites take the test?

By jenny

August 30, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

Apparently Southern Christians cound use spell check though! Sorry!

By Laura

August 30, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

We shouldn’t let our children think that the SAT or any other test is an accurate measure of their self-worth or intelligence. However, we should expect the school systems to be able to prepare our children for these tests. When it’s clear that they’re not, (i.e. children having trouble passing standardized tests in earlier grades) it is up to parents to make sure their children are properly prepared to enter college and give them information on the other options.

By jim d

August 30, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

Not so fast Laura,

Have you seen some of these tests and the poorly worded questions they contain?

I contend the more intelligent would have a bit tougher time with some of these tests than the idiots that wrote them.

By Laura

August 30, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

I agree Jim D, that’s why I don’t feel we as parents should be so reliant on them. I think we should monitor our childrens’ progress and make sure they’re prepared for whatever it is they want to do.

By Rob

August 30, 2006 01:49 PM | Link to this

So, Jenny, there are no stupid or uneducated Southern Christians. Your comment seems to indicate that. I beg to differ. There are black sheep in every social group.

By jenny

August 30, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

Rob, The original posting from John blamed the biblt belt and genetics for our low test scores. There are stupid people everywhere and in every religion. I do resent the assupmtion that this is why our test scores are so low.

By jim d

August 30, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

I tend to agree with john, it must be the *the biblt belt * LOL

By jenny

August 30, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this

Sorry, Apparently I should have taken an extra typing class in high school instead of AP math and science classs I took!

By Get Involved

August 30, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this

My parents raised me with the notion that going to college was a priviledge not a right. They themselves were only high school graduates, yet they always encouraged us to goto college to get the education of your life. In the US, we have that opportunity. Take advantage of that!!! While I agree to a certain extent that college isn’t for everyone, I am going to step on a limb and say that getting an “education”, be it tech/vocational or trade, is absolutely necessary to better one’s life & enrichment based on individual goals. To say Asians are super serious about their education is an injustice. Goto India or China and you’ll learn that it’s a religious way of life. The kinds of exams those students are subjected to in primary schools (1-7) would put our high school seniors or college freshmen at shame due to the level of excellence they achieve. Forget about the stats on the SAT/ACT people, if you have kids then get involved in their education to help them. My immigrant parents learnt English, helped us with the AP studies with only a high school education and all while working 12 hr. jobs in order to better our lives. They made available outside resources to help us when they couldn’t. Judging from some of the comments here, I really feel we are on our way to become the world’s #1, future outsourcing country for manual labor.

By jim d

August 30, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this

Why we moved up from last place! (everyone else went down)

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/08/30/news/sat.php

By michelle

August 30, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this

janine:

i’m terribly sorry. i sincerely appreciate your efforts, and every other teacher/professor/principal/administrator who gets up everyday and has to deal with this crap we call school. kids are so disrespectful nowadays…i’m only 29 and i loathe teenagers. sure i was one as well, but i do not remember acting the way these kids do now, nor did i have friends or really know a lot of people who acted that way either. they expect everything to be handed to them…no i’m sorry, demand everything be handed to them, with no thanks and no reciprocation. i really, really feel for anyone who is a teacher, especially in a metro-area school system (be it GA, NY, FL, wherever).