Get Schooled

By SNY

August 28, 2006 11:37 AM | Link to this

My daughter responds well with men and women teachers. All she needs is a teacher that cares and sticks to their guns. It doesn’t matter to her. Now, this year she does have a crush on her 4th grade science teacher. He says that she is a joy to have in class. I think it’s cute and funny. My daughter’s first crush. She does pay closer attention to his class and his homework.

By jim d

August 28, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

Patti,

According to the AP article.

“Dee said his research raises valid questions.”

I have a couple.

Why not take it to the next level and have blacks teaching only blacks, whites teaching only whites, etc.? Why make it only gender or race specific? Why not make people not legally in this country teach students that have slipped into the US as well? And how about Gay teachers teaching classses for only gay students?

Are we starting to see how asinine this concept is?

By Ernest

August 28, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this

I’m with SNY and JimD on this one. Give me a qualified teacher with high expectations and I ‘expect’ my children will succeed. We’ve been done this road before and I’m not sure if one can draw any conclusions that would merit further study.

BTW, did anyone see the article in yesterday’s (8/27) Parade on the characteristics of a good school? For many on this blog, it reiterates things that have already been said. You can read the article at: Good Schools Can Happen

By SNY

August 28, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this

Jim d.,

Honey calm down!! Those of us who have common sense understand that it makes no sense. Kids are going to respond to whom they want to respond to. Whoever did this study needed to make some money and wanted to have his 15 minutes of fame. Let’s give him that much, okay?

By Janine

August 28, 2006 12:44 PM | Link to this

THis “research/study” is just like all the other studies of educational techniques…for every one that shows one outcome, there is another that shows another. One can find a study supporting almost anything one desires to support. And we must never be fooled ! My statistics professor in grad school always cautioned…. In research of any kind …CORRELATION DOES NOT MEAN CAUSATION!!

By Teacher Teacher

August 28, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

At the rate we’re going in American education, it’ll be robots or zombies teaching the children, white or black, male or female. PUH-leez!

By MMM

August 28, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this

I think we all agree on this one. Stupid study methodology, stupid premise and morally contemptable conclusion if he actual means to suggest that kids only be taught by adults of the same gender, race, class, religion, political viewpoint etc. Can’t cure stupid.

Can we have the next blog please?

By jim d

August 28, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this

SNY,

I’m not excited dear, at least not yet. But I recomend you use caution in that regard, calling me honey. ;-)

I mean, after all—how often do I agree with the majority on these blogs?

This by far has to be one of the most rediculous concepts I’ve ever heard of for delivering education. And believe me I’ve heard of a lot of them.

By SNY

August 28, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

Jim d.,

No disrespect meant on my part. I just wanted you to know that we all see this study for exactly what it is - garbage!

By Nikole

August 28, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

It makes sense to me. It has always been noticeable that female teachers have to work a little harder with boys than male teachers. They can definitely be effective, it just takes a little more effort. However, we will never be able to give all students teacher that match their sexes, so there is nothing here to debate.

By OldSchool

August 28, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

I gather that the article is refering to academic classes and did not include vocational. It occurs to me that the students in the study likely have had more female teachers in the lower grades than male and that alone might impact the findings.

Back in the 60s and 70s, I was considered a “non-traditional” instructor as I was a female teaching Industrial Arts. My classes were mostly male as only a very few girls were interested in taking “shop.” At the end of the year, I asked my students, “So, what do you think of a female shop teacher?” Mind you, this was during the last days of school and we had been together for at least 175 so far. The most telling answer was from one senior male: “Well,” he mused, “I guess it would be alright.”

Not once did it matter to my shop students that I was female, wore dresses everyday thanks to the dress code, and knew my way around power equipment. They hardly noticed my gender and in fact, most called me “Coach” even though I was not nor am I now athletic.

My husband was equally as non-traditional…he taught elementary school.

Personally, I think the rapport any teacher develops with any class of any gender is far more important that any bogus single-gender setup.

Or maybe I’m just rambling…

By V for Vendetta

August 28, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this

It seems I agree with the majority of the bloggers on this one…

My question is: why would this guy even bring up such a stupid concept? Is he really that desperate for attention. Wait, I already know the answer to that one…

By jim d

August 28, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this

Nikole,

I don’t know about that.

Long ago in a galaxy far away, I loved having female teachers and I paid special attention to those that wore short skirts and lectured setting atop their desk. Rarely did I interrupt.

Talking to some of the young men in high school this year I’ve learned things haven’t really changed much. One teacher’s classes have filled up. And she teaches Family and Consumer Science, which is generally a class made up of 95% girls. Funny thing—Girls couldn’t get the class because so many of the boys signed up.

By Nikole

August 28, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

My observations are from elementary schools. Here, the teachers are overwhelmingly female, and you see how much easier the male teachers in this setting have it. Maybe it is the fact that males are few and far between, but that setting is what my observations are based upon.

By SET

August 28, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

Sex segregated schools are an old concept. Of course many students benefit from them. Especially the girls (historically).

Nowadays it’s the boys being damaged by not getting enough socialization from Men. It’s the old rogue elephant syndrome. Greater vocational training would be one way to get lower functioning boys out into “Men’s” work - being trained by Men.

I’m not saying that like has to be trained by like. I am saying that what the public schools are doing now isn’t working. We need to make alternatives readily available. We need to see what else may work out better for kids. Let the parents have greater choice of what program to put the kid into.

By OldSchool

August 28, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this

V, when I was in a grad school research class, I had to choose a topic to write a proposal for study on. (I know, ending a sentence with a preposition…sorry.) My proposal was to look at the Mozart Effect on the Academic Achievement of High School Drafting Students.

Maybe it’s one of those “research for the sake of research” things. Many universities require their faculty to conduct research and publish their findings. I guess the topics don’t have to be earthshattering ones.

By jim d

August 28, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

Nikole,

I don’t know about that.

Long ago in a galaxy far away, I loved having female teachers and A paid special attention to those that wore short skirts and lectured setting atop their desk. Rarely did I interrupt.

Talking to some of the young men in high school this year I’ve learned things haven’t really changed much. One teacher’s classes have filled up. And she teaches Family and Consumer Science, which is generally a class made up of 95% girls. Funny thing—Girls couldn’t get the class because so many of the boys signed up.

By Kage

August 28, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

I’m surprised how many people have dismissed this out of hand. I haven’t heard these specifics about gender before, but I have heard over and over again that black students need black teachers. Several people at our middle school have made it clear that they believe, in order to be successful, black students need black teachers. It’s caused many an argument in the lounge. Are you telling me that this is not discussed in other districts?

I’m not shocked by this man’s findings, nor do I think that he’s just seeking fame. I do believe that a qualified teacher is all that matters, but I have seen many female students intimidated by male teachers. I think it’s good practice to have them in male teachers’ classrooms, though. Sometimes you need to be placed in a classroom that challenges your thinking.

By SET

August 28, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

Black students don’t need black teachers. Black students need tough, competent teachers. They can be any race and either sex.

It will be the rare white woman in this day and age who is best able to teach a roomfull of urban black male students. Having said that I’ve known of Irish and Italian Nuns in California who set up urban schools and did well. But the mold were broken when those women retired.

Nowadays young white women are trained to look at these kids as victims to be coddled. They are terrified to demand everything (dress, speech, deportment, punctuality, classwork) from them and to take on the parents as needed. They white women teachers don’t seem to be backed up by their administrations - they seem to be less supported in cross-racial conflicts than the other teachers.

By Janine

August 28, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

To carry this notion to the next level : I taught in a school that was majority Hispanic. The district started saying that they needed Hispanic teachers to teach Hispanic students….and hired quite a few. However, for the most part, their ENglish was very poor and not a good model for the students. Also…NCLB , down in the small print, requires ESoL teachers to pass an English exam, but it is not enforced. Nevertheless, in one state,Pennsylvania I think…not sure, they decided to do that and all ESOL teachers failed the test.Some American born teachers also failed. While it is helpful to have tranlators in the school, teachers should be competent in spoken as well as written English before being certified to teach it.

By catlady

August 28, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this

Let’s don’t go throwing off on ESOL teachers. In Georgia you can be an ESOL teacher and not have any competency in ANY foreign language! Doesn’t make sense to me. Seems like to understand what the challenges a student who is learning a second, or third, language is facing, it would help to have been in a corresponding situation, trying to master a language other than English.

Unfortunately, we sometimes have folks teaching whose English is a very poor example. At my school, a fifth grade teacher says “we have went” on a daily basis, and I had a principal who talked about cleaning the “chimbley” and parents becoming “forrester” parents. Just looking at respondents to this blog, we have many folks with diplomas and degrees whose spelling is very poor also.

Back to the original premise, I know the data set used and I will have fun looking at it again myself and reading the report. I admit that I have always thought effectiveness a more individual thing. Could it be that females tend to have a learning style that is more often supported by female teachers? Could it be tied into identification with a same-sex teacher? Do girls tend to have higher grades because 80% of K-12 teachers are female? I think the WHY of this study is more important, if true, than the mere correlation. And I DO think it would be great to have more men in the classroom!

By greene

August 28, 2006 06:08 PM | Link to this

Dear SET,

I know and live with one white lady who taught 8 young african american boy teeneagers for 2 years (special ed looping), and she had no problem going into the ghetto at night to talk to parents about those boys. She was tough on them, expected their best at all time, good manners, lots of love, take them to high school football games and McDOnalds when they were really good, or made great academic improvements(these kids never got to do these things because of how poor they were) and those boys ADORED her. She was also left alone in the ghetto because everybody knew who she was, and how much she cared about those children. Those boys had undying loyalty to her. By the way, their CRCT test scores went up an average of 35 percent on all subject levels with her.

By Jeff

August 28, 2006 06:33 PM | Link to this

One thing I noted abotu the article (I read it on yahoo at work):

It pointed out that overall, teachers today are 80% female. My only comment about that is that we do in fact need more male teachers. How do you recruit males into the teaching field? Eh… subject for another blog?

Also, I finally found a way to address my “ultraprofessional” debate:

Assuming that all teachers were completely law abiding, and that a teacher could only be one or the other, would you prefer a teacher that was professional (and thus not passionate at all in regards to anything related to education) or passionate (and thus rarely or never “professional”)?

Knowing the reality that all teachers are both professional and passionate to some degree, would you rather the passion be dominant or the professionalism? (Maybe another topic for another blog?)

By linda

August 28, 2006 06:36 PM | Link to this

Yes, more men in the classroom would be great but not for the reason stated in this study. I’m sure if more men were teachers the pay would be higher!

By Jeff

August 28, 2006 06:36 PM | Link to this

SET,

Tip here: Black administrators often demand coddling for black students…. (I’ve seen it happen…)

By SET

August 28, 2006 06:42 PM | Link to this

Greene: Good for her. The problem is that women like this teacher are few and far between and not encouraged.

Modern white women are socialized to think of blacks as victims of society and therefore not responsible for much of anything. This is expecially true of younger white women who are more recently indoctrinated with political correctness at what we call College. By the time they learn better they have other things to do other than go fight people to save them from themselves.

Besides, public school management doesn’t support anyone they perceive as politically incorrect especially if they are female, white, and under 35.

I believe Men are able to or allowed to get away with more of “what needs to be done” especially if it involves conflict and pitched battles. For example Football Coaches, PE Coaches, whatever.

Plus we have the secondary problem of dealing with the screwed up families of screwed up kids. When you start correcting the kids, the mother will go off on a white woman (secondarily a white man) where she would be more fearful of attacking a black male or female teacher or administrator with perceived higher social status that herself (and who were willing to confront Mama also).

Old School black school marms (and male teachers) - and I knew several from the ’60s - would not hesitate to go nose to nose with a 17 year old boy or girl or their mothers. They would correct every bit of grammar - make them fix their clothes - humiliate kids in front of the whole school in a minute - and call in every one of the kids relatives. Whites nowadays are (usually) simply too afraid and to unsupported to do what needs to be done. The old school teachers ignored nothing.

By the way, if you see the Movie “Idlewild” note the (elderly black female) piano teacher…

While I’m not saying that black students must be or should be doled out to the black teachers - and it’s bad business to ever give adolescents what they want anyway - I do think that properly motivated black teachers can be capable to lowering the boom on the black students with less anguish.

Too bad there won’t be enough of these teachers to go around…

By luvs2teach

August 28, 2006 06:49 PM | Link to this

Maybe it’s because I’m a science teacher, and science tends to attract more male teachrs, but I always preferred and learned more from male teachers.

I also prefer boys in my classes - girls at this age are too drama-ridden for my taste. Of course, I’m speaking in generalities, and there are individuals of both sexes that break that trend, but overall, I’d rather teach a class of boys than girls.

Boys are different though - you need to make it a game; make it competitive. They enjoy working on teams and having activities that challenge them. Girls seems to enjoy artsy type of things more.

By SET

August 28, 2006 07:05 PM | Link to this

Jeff: Yes, nowadays - unlike the past - some black administrators force coddling for black students. It’s not clear to me is they will protect the black students from black teachers or if they only protect from white discipline.

I suppose the only way to deal with incompetent black administrators is to publicly denounce them as incompetents who produce a crop of welfare mothers and prison inmates - or post the bad scores of their students vs better scores of the students of more competent administrators with similar kids.

It all boils down to what the black families want. Prison and welfare for their kids or something a lot better. You only fight with people to save them from them selves for awhile. Then you let them go.

And it’s not boring to do better and have more. A good teacher with some support can improve nearly any group. And it doesn’t take a lot to have someone see something in themselves they didn’t know they had.

If you excercise students something will present itself. Left to their own devices most public school kids are afraid to do something new. If all else fails, manufacture a crisis and have them solve it. Later on they might realize the whole thing was an excercise. Whenever I’ve walked into a high school classroom around here they seem to be bored. And the teachers never call on anyone to answer questions - preferring to wait for a volunteer. My teachers helped keep us alert by jumping on a student at any moment.

By Elane

August 29, 2006 08:42 AM | Link to this

I usually related better to male teachers than females - in large part, being able to charm my way out of missed homework, etc. I never noticed any difference, however, in overall teaching effectiveness. Good and bad teachers existed on both sides of the gender line, and some female teachers turned out to be my strongest mentors. It could be true, though, that boys do better with male role models. That’s been the case with my son.

By Karen Armsby

August 29, 2006 08:49 AM | Link to this

The study was based on a sample of 25,000 8th graders, and the researcher acknowledged that this is a time when gender differences surface. Well DUH! I think the results of his study only reveal that puberty affects learning in students, period. The best teachers (male or female, whatever color or culture) can bring out the best in most of their students. And the best students are those who come prepared to learn, who are disciplined, attentive, and hard workers. As we all have observed before in this blog, the poorly prepared students of slacker parents are not going to achieve as much, no matter how good the teacher. Successful teaching and learning is a partnership requiring the teacher’s professional excellence and the student’s readiness and participation, period.

By SNY

August 29, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this

Okay,

I don’t know if it is because I am black or because I had to fight my way out of bad schools to get to the good ones, but I am sick and tired of hearing about the poor, ghetto kids who want nothing in life. How many of you white, middle-aged, middle-class women have actually BEEN to the ghetto? Most of the people on this blog only know what a ghetto looks like because they saw one on TV!! Trust me when I tell you this, MOST of the kids in the ghetto or from poor families want to make it out of the ghetto. Many of them just don’t know how. I was lucky, blessed and determined. It is not as easy as you people seem to think! There are more obstacles than you can imagine and I see most of the obstacles on this blog. It is people. People who think one way and think that the rest of the world should feel the same way. Bottom line, if you haven’t walked in their shoes, don’t disrespect them by saying you know how hard it is. Or by making some studid comment about it is their fault. It is not the child’s fault that when they came home from the hospital that their home is the ghetto - as you people call it. It is not their fault that they were never taught how important education is. Bottom line, their situation is not because of their doing!!!!! Now saying that, it is their responsibility to try and get out. But by the time that the teachers get them in middle and high school, they are too skeptical and to paranoid to trust people, especially WHITE people. I used to think that was sad but after listening to the way you guys on this blog feel about the black, underpriveledged youth, maybe they should be a little afraid. Most of you discount them before even getting to know them. If Mr. Ward did that to me when I was in school, I don’t know where I would be to this day. I loved that man so much that I would ask myself in every class, “what would Mr. Ward expect of me in this situation.” Hell, I still ask myself that question sometimes and I am 30 years old. That man loved me and taught me how to love and respect myself. Teachers - I now know, after listening to you all summer, how hard it can be to get through to a child but keep trying. I promise you that there are more kids out there that are listening to you than you think.

BTW, there are plenty of white kids who live in the suburbs whose parents don’t care either. They act just as foolish and stupid in the suburbs as they do in the inner city. So, the next time you want to give an example, try to find one in your own backyard, I’m sure that some are back there.

Sorry about my rant but some of you needed to hear it.

By jim d

August 29, 2006 09:46 AM | Link to this

SNY,

One of my children explained all this not long ago by simply stating “life happens”.

By Karen Armsby

August 29, 2006 09:51 AM | Link to this

SNY, I reread the postings in this thread and wonder whose comments you were responding to with your “rant.”

By SNY

August 29, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

Jim D.,

Your son is right life does happen but everyone should presume to know and/or understand another person plight.

Karen,

I think it is a combination of this blog along with all of the others. It just seems to me that the people on this blog, teachers and parents automatically discount the students from underpriviledged areas. Not just today but everyday. How are they suppose to soar if no one gives them the chance?

By SNY

August 29, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

Jim D.,

Sorry - that should say everyone should “not” presume. My mistake!!

By jim d

August 29, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this

SNY,

Wasn’t my son. I have a few grown daughters as well.

By OldSchool

August 29, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this

SNY, I suppose I’m as guilty as you and any others who make generalizations. I teach in a rural South Georgia high school that has a majority of students qualifying for free lunches. I also have a majority of minority students from several ethnic and cultural backgrounds. I assure them everyday that success is in their hands. I encourage, chide, preach, rejoice, and chastise them everyday. They don’t have to like me and I don’t have to like them but they know I love them all enough to want them to want the very best life for themselves.

This middle-aged, near retirement, 33 year veteran white lady teacher has been mentoring for many years an amazing young black man who wants my job. He has always called me “Mom” and I love him like a son. I can’t guarantee him my teaching position but I can encourage him as much as possible. He is NOT the exception among my students and he is a wonderful role-model.

We all choose to see color, gender, whatever or we choose to be blind to everything but the possibilities in our students. I’ve seen many, many students from the most negative of environments become successful and I’ve witnessed the “cream of the crop” of gifted, talented, and high achieving students crash and burn. Ultimately, life is individual choices.

By SET

August 29, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

SNY: keep ranting - I read your posts attentively. But here’s my take on the ghetto.

I’m not sure which one you are taking about but in CA the “ghetto” is a parasitical & pathological culture that is literaly disease ridden. They have acute mental illnesses including various addictions, they hate education, they are ignorant, promiscuous, dishonest, violent, and will attack anyone they see doing better (the crab pot thing).

Ghetto children are raised to emulate these values. They will destroy any school, mall, street, or other physical place they get access to with grafitti, vandalism and trash.

Ghetto dwellers cannot mix with any superior culture (ie: a non-destructive culture) without violence and one side or the other must leave. Since the ghetto cannot support itself it only exists as long as it can parasitically drain resources from another culture. Once no longer able to steal, it reduces in size, like any infection.

The ghetto is only constrained by physical force (ie Police and Prisons) and blocking of stolen resources (ie Utah’s Welfare Policy).

Race is involved as Whites tend to grow ghettos by tolerating their pathology. The coming Hispanic takeover of certain regions of the USA will make short work some of the existing ghettos since they have no “white guilt” and tend to not carry toxic level of alturism, thus see no reason to tolerate ghetto culture.

I think that covers it.

By Jeff

August 29, 2006 05:33 PM | Link to this

Yeah… so…. I WORK in the ghetto, and I am simply telling you my daily observations…. these kids expect to be handed everything!!!!

By Karen Armsby

August 29, 2006 08:00 PM | Link to this

SNY, So what do you think of SET’s ghetto characterization? Personally, as a white middle aged and classed female, not a teacher, who volunteered a whole lot when my kids where in school, I think that Get Schooled bloggers are by and large here wanting to find and discuss solutions for the successful education for ALL children, of all economic, social and racial make-up. We discuss the issues from our viewpoints and experience, which admittedly, SNY, may not be from your viewpoint and experience. But you also must not condemn our opinions because we have not walked in your shoes. For you want understanding, but sometimes you fail to listen to us, and to give us credit when we do understand the truth and the limiting factors that the children of “ghettos” face. The truth hurts.

By luvs2teach

August 29, 2006 08:57 PM | Link to this

SNY - what you’re referring to in your comments (MOST of the kids in the ghetto or from poor families want to make it out of the ghetto. Many of them just don’t know how…It is not their fault that they were never taught how important education is.) is exactly what I am talking about when I refer to Ruby Payne’s work.

People in generational poverty think differently and live by a different set of cultural rules - this isn’t just the ghetto - it’s the trailer park, too. Sure, they dream of getting out, and you’re right, they don’t know how - that’s part of why poor people tend play the lottery more and dream of making it big in sports or movies - they haven’t been taught the very middle class survival skills needed to make it in other ways.

You are also right in saying that it appears to you that people on the blog don’t understand this - they don’t, because it is as foreign to the middle class cultural mindset as the extremely strong family values of the Japanese or the wearing of the bourka by Muslim women.

On the flip side, most middle class people would feel as uncomfortable in a truly wealthy class setting as a ghetto/trailer park person might in a middle class venue. I might dream of going to a wealthy ball, but if I were there, I would feel very out of place and uncomfortable, and feel like I was being watched and judged. Sound familiar?

You’re right in saying that there are obstacles, but the obstacles aren’t merely people as much as it is cultural structures. Children from poverty do need to be taught the “hidden rules” of the middle class - it’s my guess that you learned that, not just from Mr. Ward, a caring teacher, but also from the military.

I firmly believe it’s not about black and white, and focusing on that keeps us from solving the real problems. Although I am a middle class white woman, I taught in ghetto schools, and, outside of the color of my skin, I probably had more in common with my students than the black teachers from 2 parent middle class homes - like so many of my students, as a child, I was on welfare, free lunch, and medicaid, my parents weren’t together, and i lived with my grandmother for a while. It wasn’t the ghetto - it was a trailer park, and it took the military to get me out. My sister, with her 5 kids from 3 different dads, didn’t make it.

And she plays the lottery like nobody I know…

By SNY

August 30, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

Karen,

It isn’t about the truth hurting at all, it is about realizing that the kids that you are downing - on a constant basis - have no choice but to live in a world (the ghetto) where survival means acting a certain way. They have not been taught how to live any other way. They shouldn’t be berated and talked down upon. People should TRY and understand that they are human beings. Which means that they have the potential to behave differently if they are taught better.

Luvs,

I didn’t learn the hidden rules from the military. I learned them all from Mr. Ward. But, the military reinforced what I had already been taught. As much as I hated being there, it was a valuable experience and I owe all of my success to Mr. Ward and my former Company Commanders. They were patient with me. Especially the male commanders.

Luvs,

Did you find that you were belittled and made fun of because you wanted to get out of that environment? It was hard for me at first. Now, when I attend those rich balls that you speak of, I feel that I am right where I should be. Those people are no better than I. I remember when my husband and I got married, he took me to the Bahamas for our honeymoon and everyone thought that I was showing off. Isn’t that silly. Anyway, I worked hard to live the life that I have. No one gave me a thing and I appreciate everything in my life. My point to you Luvs is that I want you to attend one of those rich, fancy parties and I want you to go in there with your head up knowing that you belong and HAVE SOME FUN. You would be surprised at how funny rich people are when they drink too much. And most of them do drink way too much. Once you go and see that, you will never feel out of place or uncomfortable around them again. I promise!

By Karen Armsby

August 30, 2006 07:12 PM | Link to this

SNY, I would like for you to tell me exactly what I posted that you consider “kids that you are downing - on a constant basis.” I have been participating in Get Schooled for over a year, and try to propose positive solutions and constructive criticism. I think the pie is big enough for all of us, including kids from the ghetto. What I cannot accept is the coddling of slackers by school systems, the non attendance, the violence, the attitude. the education is there for the taking and many of these kids are thumbing their noses at it, not trying like you did to rise above their situation.

By SNY

August 31, 2006 09:25 AM | Link to this

Karen,

The violence is part of their lives. It is all they know. They don’t know any other way. What part of that don’t you seem to understand? Yes, the education is there for the taking but if they don’t know that, they aren’t going to care about it. They are not “thumbing their noses as it”, it just doesn’t mean anything to them because they don’t know that it should mean something. I rose above the situation because I am stuck-up as h&ll. I just have to have certain things in my life - Period!! Not everyone has that motivation. For the most part, most of them have no motivation at all. Don’t think that because I did it, everyone should be able to. If that was the case then everyone that wants to quit smoking cold turkey can do it because I did it. Life doesn’t work that way.

By abc

August 31, 2006 09:46 AM | Link to this

SNY - There is a difference between “ghetto-fabulous” and just fabulous!

I doubt seriously that you have ever been to a “wealthy” ball! These are the balls that cost upwards of $200 a plate per person. From what you’ve indicated on this blog - you would be a fool to have spent the money on one of these balls when your husband doesn’t even make enough money for your daughter to attend private school without you having to go back to work!

I agree with the poster who said that you would feel as uncomfortable around truly wealthy people as someone from the ghetto would feel around middle class folks.

Just because you put on your shiny shoes and bought a new dress doesn’t mean you attended a “wealthy” ball!

By Karen Armsby

August 31, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this

SNY, I asked you before, what have I been posting that is “downing these ghetto kids on a constant basis?” You walked in their shoes, lived in the ghetto and got out. You refused to accept violence as a way of acting, just like I do not accept it, so what’s your point? I do understand that violence is the way they act, (DUH!) but I do not think that kids in school who act out in a violent, disrespectful, truant manner should be allowed to attend, to be socially promoted, to get endless do-overs for failing grades. These students play music and party and they are thumbing their noses at the teachers when they disrupt the classes and ruin it for those who are there to learn (like you were?). What part of that do you disagree with? I think that schools who allow thugs to return to the classroom are setting the teachers,students and school up for failure. Common sense tells me that if you don’t require good behavior, attendance and effort then the student is much less likely to succeed than kids who show up, work and behave. Why do you think I am wrong? Finally, since you understand the ghetto kids psyche, what are your suggestions to improve the schools and motivate the ghetto students so that they can have a better chance for school success?

By SNY

August 31, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

abc,

Please do not misunderstand, yes I do have to work to afford private school for my daughter, but my husband makes enough money for us to live quite nicely. You do not have to believe where I have been or what types of functions that I have attended, that is your perogative. I really don’t care. Have I been around the truly wealthy - yes! Do you have to believe me - no! I am middle class now and it still isn’t good enough. I am striving to be more. Not just because of the class issue, but because I want the best educational experiences for my two children. That comes with more money. Trust me, when your child attends school with wealthy people, you have no choice but to be around them. Sometimes you even make a friend or two. You see, I don’t go looking for rich people to befriend. I have met some truly down-to-earth people who just happen to be rich. Our children play together, the learn together and they worship together. And yes, once,my husband and I were invited to an affair that we did attend right here in Atlanta and I had a fabulous time. I didn’t feel out of place because I was with the rich friends that I met at my daughter’s school. You see, again, it isn’t what you know it is who you know!!

BTW, going back to work for me was a decision that we made so that we can continue to live the life that we are used to and familiar with. If you don’t know a person’s whole story, be careful of what you speak.

Karen,

You speak about these kids as if they know any better. The bottom line is that some of them don’t. Some of them don’t know that you shouldn’t cuss out right and say exactly what is on your mind. They haven’t been taught any tact whatsoever. They think it, so they say it. Trust me, you DON’T understand their violence. If you have never seen someone being raped, beaten, prostituted, gang raped, slapped around, shot, or cut on an everyday basis then NO you don’t understand their violence. Now, the question is how do we help these kids? Unfortunately, I don’t have an exact answer for that question. The answer actually varies by student, I think. My teachers saw that I wanted to get out from underneath. So when I acted a fool every once in awhile, they quickly stood up and put me back where I needed to be. They also called my mother and well, no one wants to cross my mother. ( love her but I am 32 years old and I am still afraid of that woman.) We need more teachers who can do that. But I also understand that the teachers need administrator who will back them. Maybe we need to start by getting rid of the top levels and starting over from there. Get rid of the people that have tolerated this mess and hire or elect people who will stand up for themselves and for the kids. Let’s face it, from what I hear on this blog, if a teacher could get away with telling a parent the truth about their child without worrying about getting in trouble, things might change.

I think that we also need to get away from this NO TOLERANCE crap. There has to be some tolerance, they’re children. Everything in life is not black and white. Sometimes there has to be exceptions to the rule. The trick is to try to be as fair as possible. There a kids in the ghetto that want more for themselves, we just have to spot them out and work with them - hard. It is going to take more work on the part of the teacher because the parents probably are working or don’t care. But, should the student be penalized for that?

If you haven’t walked in ghetto shoes, you cannot speak on how or what ghetto kids should know.

By HS Teacher Too

August 31, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

SNY — we often have our differences, but you are dead-on when you say “Let’s face it, from what I hear on this blog, if a teacher could get away with telling a parent the truth about their child without worrying about getting in trouble, things might change.”

Amen! Oh, the stories I could tell … but that’s another blog, another day …!

By SNY

August 31, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this

HS,

I just think that if the teachers could just get real with the irrate parents one good time, then some things would change.

By Karen Armsby

August 31, 2006 05:39 PM | Link to this

SNY, Why can’t you see that you do agree with me that violence and acting out is not the way to succeed, that the teachers who called you to task and called your mom, who made you responsible for your actions were doing what ALL the kids need, whether they are ghetto kids, middle class or spoiled rich kids. I did not comment on what ghetto kids should know, I said that all schools should reject violence, and bad behavior, and require responsibility and civil behavior from all students. The ghetto kids are still kids, still learning, still trainable, still teachable, still able to be saved from their ghetto. Agree? BTW, you do not know me or my experiences, and you may not tell me what I may or may not comment on here. Let’s listen to each other, not shut the other out.