Get Schooled

By SET

August 25, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this

The freshman just arrived and already they are being dumbed down. Pathetic. If you don’t turn in your work you are supposed to be flunked.

The concept of a basic skills seminar (do they need a year long “course”?) is a good idea. While they are at it they can cover school policy on deportment, discipline and dress code - graduation requirements, who to see about help, how to recognize there is a problem, etc.

I have several friends who work in Administration and Teaching at the local Jr. College. They have just started their school year. Every year they have a breaking in period where the incoming freshmen have to be taught that the Jr. College doesn’t tolerate things that were common in the local public high schools.

For a month, some students (generally some of the new ones) are arrested and suspended until words gets out through the new cohort that you can’t curse teachers (you are summarily suspended from all classes by that teacher), refuse to leave campus when ordered to do so by any teacher (automatic arrest and jail booking), make any kind of verbal threat (they arrest and book in county jail for that one), or be under the influence of anything (passing out on campus gets a narcotics officer evaluation). It seems these behaviors were “no big deal” in high school.

The students actually tell the campus police that they can’t “touch” them - they sometimes have to be taken down to the concrete, hard. I’m told that every time they have an 18 year old in handcuffs en route to the county jail the prisoner asks if the campus police have called his (it usually the males) mother. They just laugh at him.

One month later the problems have abated until next year. Everybody toes the line. This cycle is attributed to the air of unreality the kids come through the door with because they were spoiled in public high school. If the high school would do their jobs these kids would not be having these problems as adults.

By shannon@ngcsu.edu

August 25, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this

The Fayette Co school is right on target. Our schools are not in the business of failing students. If they did get 1 chance to make up missed homework, that’s fine. Homework is a tool for teachers to look over to see if the student understands the lesson and for students to do for reinforcement. If they flunked a test - maybe the teacher needs to review how she taught it and realize all students are different (just because some aced it and some didn’t doesn’t mean EVERYONE got it) and provide extra help and the chance to retake the test. If you are in the business world, and get a bad review or a project isn’t “just right”, you take it back to the drawing board and redo it. If you are on the sports field (pro, college, HS), you redo plays until you get it right. School shouldn’t be any different. Buford HS has afreshman focus class - for study hall, adjustment issues and time to go to other teachers for necessary help. North Gwinnett HS makes students that are behind or fail to get work done to take their sack lunch to study hall - DURING LUNCH! We must let our students know we want them to do well. The goal is to master the state standard - not either “get it” or “move on” on each lesson and leave kids behind.

By Dragonlady

August 25, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this

Set, If it were up to the teachers, the kids wouldn’t be getting away with this stuff. The teachers BEG the administrators to crack down on such behavior. In fact, this is the type of behavior that is driving good teachers away from teaching in droves.

By Nikole

August 25, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

What a great idea. The leap from high school to college requirews a freshman orientation and the same should happen from middle school to high school. I love solutions in the field of education and this is a good one.

By jim d

August 25, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

Shannon,

Now there’s a lesson I wouldn’t want taught to my child.

“Screw up and you get another chance?”

No thank you, I’d prefer he learns what it’s like in the real world. Often there are no second chances. One doesn’t get a second chance to kick the game winning field goal, nor might one have a second opportunity to react with the enemy firing live rounds at you.

By V for Vendetta

August 25, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

SET and Dragonlady are right on cue…

When your kids are seven years old, it is fine to treat them this way. They are in the process of learning responsibility and understanding that actions have reactions. By the time they are fourteen however, and are entering high school, they should be aware of the consequences of their actions. Failing to turn in an assignment results in NO CREDIT for that assignment. How could it make sense any other way?

Do people really think that this is helping our kids prepare for college? Has everyone just suddenly lost sight of that? If you do not do something, you cannot possibly take credit for it. Why do these kids deserve a bunch of chances, someone please tell me that. It wasn’t a question in my house growing up whether or not school was important. It was a known fact that it was, and to be succesful in life, and to be a functional member of society, you needed to take your education as far as you could.

What a disgusting example of how schools are being ruined and how society’s attitude towards education and expectations is in the crapper. I’m just happy knowing that my kids will be respectful, value education for the sake of education, and go on to make something of themselves.

And if they ever forget to turn in one of their assignments, I will ASK the teacher to give them a zero. How else will they learn?

By cte teacher

August 25, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this

If this is the program from Chad Foster, then this is a great thing. “High School 101 is an innovative, project-based strategy designed to engage students transitioning from middle school to high school. The 10 micro-units that create the semester-long course provide students with 21st Century skills that they will need to succeed in the classroom as well as the workplace.(taken from the website).

The units consist of choice/consequences; career exploration and preparation; test taking skills; time management, financial literacy and more. It uses two books “Preparing Teens for the Real World” and “Financial Literacy”.

I first heard about this program at teacher’s inservice. I would love for my school system to invest in it. It should definetly be a prerequisite for all Career and Tech classes.

By jim d

August 25, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this

I was always under the impression that middle school was to prepare students for high school.

When did that change?

By b. white

August 25, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

All teachers and staff have to be involved in school solutions. Administrators really don’t listen much to input from teachers. They take their orders from high up. This includes limit the referrals, good customer service (pacify the parents), etc. What kind of message does this send. Nothing is going to be done to students causing problems - so why bother.

By HB

August 25, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

Jim, I think it was around the time jr highs became middle schools and everyone decided at that age their self-esteem is too fragile to handle real homework and the responsibility of completing assignments (can you tell I’m not of fan of the middle school concept?). I attended jr high in one of the last GA systems to hold out against the switch to middle schools. We moved when I was in high school, and I occasionally worked in middle schools on Beta Club projects. The difference was staggering. Walking through the halls proudly decorated with students’ coloring sheets (not substantial art projects — simply colored-in outlines of “historic events”), it felt more like the grade 1-3 hall of my elementary school. I suddenly understood why the 9th graders at my high school had a failure rate of over 50%. My friends who had siblings in both elementary and middle school said the younger kids had homework every night and were expected to study for tests. The middle schoolers never had homework, didn’t bring any books home, and got A’s with almost no effort. Interestingly, in the 3 years I was there, we usually had 4 to 6 students tied at the top of the senior class. Every year, at least half of those top students had transfered in from either the local parocial school that only went up to 8th grade or an out-of-district jr high school, even though those students made up only a tiny percentage of the entire class.

By Lisa B.

August 25, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this

We have got to stop babying these kids! The more we do for them, the less they do for themselves. Stop, stop, stop!

By JustMe

August 25, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

The freshman 101 class: great idea. At my high school where I teach we have freshman orientation. It only takes a couple of hours which may not be enough. However, I am wondering if an entire class for a whole semester would be too long.

The retaking test and being given another chance at assignments: BS. Students must not only learn content but also life lessons. This means meeting deadlines and paying penalties if you do not.

Does the IRS in Fayette Co. allow you to “re-do” your taxes if you do them wrong? How about the IRS giving you another chance if you miss their deadline for filing?

Fayette Co. is teaching their kids the wrong lesson here - and the kids will learn the hard way once they do graduate!

By shannon@ngcsu.edu

August 25, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

jim d, well here is a reason you are probably not a teacher, nor been through a teacher ed college program. School’s are not about failing students; nor passing them along lacking the state standards. Remember, if they fail the 3rd, 5th, 8th and 11th (grad test) grade CRCT, then they are not promoted but instead do summer school and retake the test. Or, their mommy can complain that the teacher didn’t teach (not that their precious child could not learn) and push them along lacking the next grade levels knowledge or be placed in remedial classes (again, that mommy will not want!). I was referring to sport practices for redoing plays - that is what homework is for and why a “0” should not be given as homework is a practice for the real test. And one chance to make a better grade on a test should not be a big deal - if you are an executive for a large company and plan wrong, budget wrong or present the wrong idea - you get the chance to fix it - not usually fired on the spot. Most employers don’t want to let go of good employees based on one error just like schools shouldn’t give up on their students. College have orientations, some have required freshman classes, make you meet with an advisor ALL THE TIME and new employees have training programs, harrassment seminars and orientations; so this idea is very similar and just a stepping stone to the next level.

By MMM

August 25, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this

Why is this a whole semester? Good study habits and planning should be part of elementary school training.

By catlady

August 25, 2006 05:21 PM | Link to this

There IS a big difference in the expectations of middle school vs. high school. Articulation between the two of expecations is a real problem. I am not sure this is the way to address it, however. Maybe shoring up the middle school expectations would be a better use of time. And many of the parents need these courses at least as much as their children!

By JustMe

August 25, 2006 05:40 PM | Link to this

shannon@ngcsu.edu…

I am a teacher and I have had ed college courses. In fact, I am working on my PhD in Ed.

Not giving zeros is WRONG!!! If a student does not do an assignment by the given deadline, then there SHOULD be a major penalty. I accept work one day late with a -20 point penalty. Beyond that, it is a zero.

Students MUST learn that deadlines are set for a reason and they cannot ignore them. Allowing students to do work whenever is completely unaceptable and stupid.

To use your “phrase” to explain: schools are not in the business of passing students along that do not follow instructions (at least in my school!). Maybe it is okay in your school to have social promotion and simply pass students from grade to grade when they cannot perform. These are the very students that fail the CRCT and then get passed along to a high school where they will NEVER pass the graduation test.

Your analogy of “good employees” being allowed to redo work is not correct. Employees will be fired rather quickly instead of being allowed to make mistake after mistake.

It sounds to me like YOU need to increase YOUR expectations for your students. Set the bar high and EXPECT them to do well the FIRST time and to turn in work on time. You may be surprised at what they can do.

And, to correct your horribly wrong statement…. all colleges do NOT have those requirements for freshmen. GA Tech, for example, has an OPTIONAL orientation program in the summer (it is called FASET). And, there is NO requirement for Tech students to ever meet their “advisor.”

If you are at North Georgia College (a guess on my part due to your name), then maybe you are accustomed to mediocre students. I am trying to produce top notch students, thank you very much.

By SET

August 25, 2006 05:56 PM | Link to this

I was just looking over my earlier comment and wondering why are the Jr. College instructors treated so much more respectfully by their administration than the high school teachers?

Some people refer to those schools as 13th and 14th grade. So why do the instructors for 13th and 14th grade get swift & decisive action against disruptive students but 11th and 12th grade instructors do not? Has it something to do with the way the schools are funded? Or is it the entitlement to secondary education that results in the 11th and 12th graders being coddled?

By Two-Year College Prof

August 25, 2006 06:44 PM | Link to this

As an educator at one of Georgia’s Two-Year colleges I have to clear up a few misconceptions in SET’s most recent post. First we are not Jr. Colleges. At the institution I teach at the faculty teaching courses at the 1000 level and higher have terminal degrees in their field (usually Ph.D.’s) and are active in research and professional growth and development. The courses we teach are taught at the same level and to the same standards as those at Georgia Tech and UGA. Our environment is not that of 13th and 14th grade because the education model that we use is that of “university” where the assumptions that are made are; (1) the student wants to be at the institution, (2) the student is motivated to learn and (3) the student is prepared for college level work. As such we use the same format of less structured, “in-class” time and high levels of student responsibility with earned grades and a very real possibility of failure (again, just like Tech and UGA). Recent statistics from the University System Board of Regents office show that students who complete their work in the two year college environment perform better in their junior and senior years at the USG’s Senior institutions that those institution’s own freshman and sophomore students.

We are treated different because we aren’t the 13th and 14th grades. We are colleges rooted in a full “university” model of education.

By V for Vendetta

August 28, 2006 08:23 AM | Link to this

Geez Shannon, you’re not going to be a teacher are you? If so, don’t worry, you will wise up REAL quick. Those rose-colored glasses wont stay on for long…

By jim d

August 28, 2006 08:30 AM | Link to this

Shannon,

And your attitude is the exact reason so many people mistrust educators in this day and time.

You come across as a pompous a$$ that thinks they know what is best for every child. (a typical school administrator syndrome)

I simply stated that I wouldn’t want my children taught that they get second chances in life. The truth of the matter is that all too often that young people feel they should be given another opportunity to do something when in fact that’s not the case. No, I’d prefer my children be taught to take advantage of every opportunity as it presents itself. Do it to the best of their ability the first time and move on and I damn sure do not need a teaching degree to know that’s how life is in the real world. I’ve been in it far too long to believe the spoon-fed crap you spewing.

By RA

August 28, 2006 09:16 AM | Link to this

The problem I have with this class is that I don’t think it will work. I learned to study, take notes, turn in my homework, etc., by being required to do it in my classes.

My children rise to the expectations their teachers have for them. If they have a teacher who “recommends” they keep a notebook, maybe my kids will, maybe they won’t. If they have a teacher who “requires” they keep a notebook, and then checks and grades the notebook,(giving zeros for noncompliance) then my kids will keep a notebook. And that example holds true for almost every other classroom requirement.

As a parent, I am grateful when the teacher takes a hard line and sticks to it. Its so much easier for me to enforce a teacher’s rules at home when I know she is going to enforce them at school as well. It is so discouraging to require my kid to follow a school rule, to have a big argument about it at home, and then have my kid come home and smugly announce that the teacher didn’t care after all.

Every good parent knows that a rule without consequences is just a suggestion.

By Taxpayer

August 28, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

Our experience with High School 101 and the whole “Freshman Academy” concept has not been positive. Our school got a grant that paid for every student in the 9th grade who was in the program. With that kind of money at stake, the school (at the county’s urging) herded all the students into HS 101 classes, which turned out to be nothing but glorified keyboarding classes. Even students in the gifted programs were required to take this sorry excuse for a class. Because HS 101 was required, students had to give up an elective, usually a foreign language or music. And what did they get in return? A glorified keyboarding class that often met in trailers without computers! At the end of the year, the freshman class had the highest failure rate of any freshman class in the school’s history.

Before the beginning of school last year, I tried to find out what the HS 101 class would be all about. No one at the school or at the county level could or would tell me. When I searched for info on the Internet, I found that most HS 101 classes were for remedial students. Those that were not were usually limited to a few weeks or an occasional evening course for both students and parents. It appeared that our school was simply adding this course TO GET THE GRANT MONEY! The money could have been much better spent teaching English to our growing ESL population or providing tutors to kids struggling academically.

I also agree with RA: students learn by doing.

By shannon

August 28, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

Well, from I what I gather from all the expert parents in this blog is that : 1. Their child will only take the SAT once, as they will do well enough the 1st time……that goes for the graduation test and the 3rd, 5th, and 8th grade promotion test too. 2. We expect ALL student to be the same and treated the same, when in reality, we as teachers have to teach to a variety of students and figure out how to get them to embrace learning. 3. We’re forgetting the new GA Performance Standards vision - to get a child to “master” a standard before moving on, unlike the prior standards (QCC) that retaught every year the same info, which led to a lack of understanding. 4. That high school freshmen are so well-rounded that any help is unneccessary as all parents and teachers have prepared them for high school.
Again, everyone is leaving out the students that we are trying to make sure doesn’t get left behind. This blog wasn’t about the gifted child that WILL do his work but the ones that need to be pushed and not slapped with a zero instead of encouraged. And since I’ve been in college now for the past 3 yrs and have children in grades 3-12 and also a college freshman, I know how college grading works - they don’t grade homework, but rather have group discussions and give participation grades. You have some classes that your average is based on only FOUR tests and a non-cumulative final (math and social sciences especially) - partial credit, like a lot of teachers do anyway and Fayette Co is doing in this blog is better than no credit. The students will learn that someone cares about them getting a good grade and step up - those are the expectations we need for students that are falling behind.

By Laf

August 28, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this

By jim d

August 28, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this

Shannon,

I have no problem with you teaching down to the students that need that approach. However, I have a serious problem when it is done at the expense of those that are able to do more.

By JustMe

August 28, 2006 05:19 PM | Link to this

Shannon,

You are still off the mark with your comments. Please allow me to explain….

Teaching is NOT about learning how to give good grades. Teaching IS about finding ways for students to learn - learn content and also learn life lessons. Teaching IS about understanding your particular group of students and how they learn. Teaching is NOT about coddling students and cajoling (sp?) them until they pass.

Find out what works for your students. Teach that way. Then assess them. Do NOT teach your students that it is okay to fail by allowing them to do a single assignment over and over and over again. Teach them to do it right the first time, not the 5th time. Teach a student until they “master” it and then assess them.

This is not a GPS vs. QCC issue. This is about a teaching philosophy issue.

Again, you compare college to high school. One cannot do this. However, we (HS teachers) can try to prepare our students for college. We do this by setting deadlines for work and sticking to them. We do this by challenging our students to think and not just memorize the material. Yes, I had college courses where the only assessment was the final exam. Was that a good professor from a teaching perspective? NO.

Even the general level (or “low” level) students need to learn life lessons. And in life, there are some deadlines and rules that they will HAVE to follow…. get to work on time, don’t run a red light, etc. So our lesson of “turn your work in on time” is just one type of rule that they need to learn to follow. By allowing them to turn it in “when ever” or to get multiple chances to do it right, you are foregoing the opportunity to teach them a life lesson.

I do not show “care” to my students by giving them grades as a gift, or by only grading the easy problems, or by allowing them to continue to re-do homework 20 times. I show “care” for my students by teaching them right the first time, setting high expectations, and getting them ready for the best colleges in the nation (and a number of my students do go on to the MIT type, Harvard type, etc.). I do not teach mediocrity. I teach excellence. If I was EVER asked to lower my expectations for my students by my administration or school system then it would be time for me to find another job.

By the way, one period I teach a general level class with a co-teacher (an inclusion class) that has 8 special needs students. I challenge them as well and they have far exceeded my expectations as well as the expectations of the special education teacher. She has commented how well those students are doing in my class and I strongly feel it is simply because I expect for them to perform at a high level. So often, teachers expect the minimum and that is what they get.

By JustMe

August 28, 2006 05:23 PM | Link to this

Laf,

I completely disagree with you. When you were in school, or even when your parents were in school, weren’t there deadlines (when work was due)? Did the teacher then give you 2nd, 3rd, and 4th chances on an assignment? Heck no!

So then, the current drop out rate increase has nothing to do with this.

If you get a speeding ticket, don’t blame it on the TV show you watched last night! The two have nothing to do with each other!!!!

By jim d

August 28, 2006 05:33 PM | Link to this

Oh and shannon,

Kudos on making it for 3 years in college. But the truth of the matter is I wouldn’t trade one minute of my 58 years at the school of hard knocks for what you think you have gained in all three years.

By Nja

August 28, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this

I am very surprised at the number of individuals who think this is a bad idea and who consider this babying students. Very interesting. We have had High School 101 in our district for quite some time. Not all high schools have it but I can tell you that it is implemented in the top high schools. I was able to teach this course. The students love it! The course that we have is so much more specific than the typical this is how you study. What we did was help students understand what type of learners they are- basically the way in which they process information. Some adults don’t even know this information believe me it helps a lot. We also provided a lot of college & career information, tolerance info., etc. And also transistioning from middle school to high school.

I guess it all depends on what the particular school or district wants to do with High School 101. I saw a comment earlier stating someone found most of these classes were for remedial students. Well I would like to find that information because most High School 101 classes are incorporated through Freshman Academies and most students take this course. I have seen some Freshman Academy programs that were a total waste of grant funding, however, I have seen several that were absolutely wonderful. Knock the individuals who are running the programs. Not the concept as a whole.

By oh, really?

August 28, 2006 06:09 PM | Link to this

RA,

Why is it the teacher’s job to organize your kid’s notebook or reward the kid for keeping it organized in high school?

The reward for keeping an organized notebook is that you can keep organized notes, find assignments quickly, and study well for test. The notebook is not an end in itself.

Sure, you kid probably does do these things if they are graded and required, but if your kid has been shown how to organize a notebook in the past, why should he or she need continued reinforcement for something that is in itself non-academic?

For little kids, a rule without consequences may just be a suggestion, but this thread is about a high school class. High school kids need to learn that sometimes the rules are the rules even when you aren’t rewarded and punished daily.

By Taxpayer

August 28, 2006 06:12 PM | Link to this

What exactly is a Freshman Academy supposed to be? At our school, which is considered the best in our county, students were herded onto one hall and stuck in a time-wasting class (High School 101). The teachers in this program were great cheerleaders for it, but no one ever explained exactly what it was or how our students would benefit. Again, it looked like something set up to get a big fat grant. There was plenty of talk about such esoteric concepts as learning styles, actualization, and other such guff. My kid and many others would have been MUCH better served if they could have taken a useful elective instead of that ridiculous class. Of course the kids love High School 101! It’s a social hour, a waste of time, an excuse to sit and talk about nothing.

So many parents complained about this horrendous waste of time and money that the school was forced to eliminate it.

Want to keep kids from dropping out? Hire some tutors to work one-on-one with them. It works. Match at-risk kids with mentors. Many of these kids have no one to really care about them or give them an idea of what they can achieve. No one at home tells them that they CAN have a future if they pursue their education.

Freshman Academy/High School 101 will go the way of whole language and other such stupid ideas generated by “educators” who could use an education in reality.

By luvs2teach

August 28, 2006 06:27 PM | Link to this

I can’t say for sure, but I think the idea of Freshman 101 came FROM the colleges. I know of many colleges that offer this type of course - basically a “study smarter, not harder” type of program, with learning styles, stress and time management, and career planning thrown in. They are typically offered for a full semester for elective credit.

As someone said, the concept could be a good one, but the people involved or the implementation may be at fault where it doesn’t work.

jim d - it’s not the middle school’s job to prepare kids for high school - it’s their job to remediate all the stuff they didn’t learn in elementary.

(sorry, elementary teachers - I couldn’t resist - I am kidding!)

By shannon

August 28, 2006 06:40 PM | Link to this

Interestingly, your 58 yrs of hard knocks compared to my 3 yrs of college is old school vs new school. My education professor is from the GA DOE (she left like all the other ones are doing right now) and she is a National Board Certified Teacher that has some awesome ideas and this blog has been a great discussion in class. No, we shouldn’t allow them to keep retaking missed assignments - but we don’t fail them either. Why is that so hard to understand? Nobody is advocating giving out grades or social promotion. What is being advocated in the Freshman 101 classes is preparation, note taking, study time (that students team of teachers all have freshman 101 at same time so students can go to a specific teacher for help at our school in Gwinnett Co), wise decision making skills, how to write papers, how to study for the graduation test (via the state dept’s web program) and many more useful skills. It last all year long and is a great program.

By jim d

August 29, 2006 08:57 AM | Link to this

Shannon,

One of us appears to be confused.

“provide extra help and the chance to retake the test.” “you redo plays until you get it right. School shouldn’t be any different.” “a “0” should not be given as homework”

“No, we shouldn’t allow them to keep retaking missed assignments - but we don’t fail them either.”

Which is it?

And allow me to point out that teachers don’t fail students. Students actually fail themselves by failing to do the job they’ve been tasked with. I know you may find this difficult to believe but Teachers are not Gods. You do not have the ability to force someone to learn if they don’t wish to.

You know, at some point every one of us must assume responsibility for our actions or lack of. This is what educators should be teaching not teaching to meet some bogus state standard. Failing to do so is in fact failing our children to meet the realities of life. Please feel free to take that comment to your retired DOE, Nationally Board Certified, education professor and ask if she can dispute it.

As a side note; I spent last evening meeting all of my child’s teachers and not one of them allows re-tests or accepts late assignments. They do however do a few things that artificially inflate grades too. Like assigning extra credit work and grading homework for completion, not for accuracy. But that’s a subject for future blogs.

Hagd.

By Educatorx3

August 29, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this

jim d “…at some point every one of us must assume responsibility for our actions or lack of. This is what educators should be teaching not teaching to meet some bogus state standard.” I just had to comment.

I don’t disagree with the idea that all students must learn responsibility, or that it should be a “part” of what is taught in K-12 schools, however, I believe that learning responsibility starts at home.

While you may make sure your son does his homework and you may have taught him from an early age that education is important, that cannot be said of all students. So, does it then become the responsibility of the school to become the parent? By the time we do the job that parents should be doing (character education, sex education, responsibiity, driver’s education, work ethic, citizenship) there is little time for math and science! I am not laying this all at the feet of parents but it is something that should be started at home.

But, if we use grades to reflect responsibility or lack there of, we change the whole meaning of the report card. When your son brings home a grade, it should reflect a measurement of what he knows. When I give a student a grade, it is a measurement of their content knowledge…have they met the goal that was set before them (and before you start, my goals and expectations are extremely high!) Unless there is a place on the report card for responsibility, it shouldn’t be reflected in a content grade.

I would love to have a report card that gave teachers the opportunity to reflect on the work ethic, responsibility, character, etc. of the students. But that is different from content knowledge. Perhaps this is where we get issues with grade inflation. Think about it….if pointsare deducted on a content assignment for lack of responsibility, should points be awarded for being extremely responsible? (we keep wanting to put this in terms of the business world - this would be the bonus that folks get for achieving above and beyond the sales goals!)

Now, should I, and do I, expect responsible behavior and work habits from my students - absolutely! Should I, and do I, help students to see what the real world is like - certainly!

But…do I accept late assignments? yes. Are they graded the same as one that is on time? not always. (if you took longer to get it done it should be much better, right?) Do I allow students to re-do assignments? Absolutely! They will do it until they get it right! Because you see, that is my responsbility. I signed on for this job knowing that not every student wants to learn; not every student will do what is necessary to learn, but I will do my best to see that every student I teach reaches the highest possible level of proficiency in my content area.

And just out of curiosity, why do you think the state standards are bogus? What would you suggest be used instead? (not being sarcastic, I would really like to know what you think.)

By JustMe

August 29, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this

LOL. Shannon is learning double talk from the best - a national board certified teacher that was fired from the GA department of education. No wonder her views are so screwed up….

By jim d

August 29, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

X3,

This could take awhile so I’ll try to convey my thoughts in a condensed form. Hopefully nothing will be lost.

Teaching responsibility—If a student learns there are consequences for failing to act responsibly, making their best effort to turn work in on time, and done to the best of their ability. They will respond by doing so. Provided they comply—they will learn simply by doing.

You need not be their parent to convey this message and personally I already feel that the public schools have assumed too much responsibility for raising our children. Granted, some students have parents that are non-parents but the majority of students do have parents that care and are involved. The schools make no distinction between the two, treating those that are involved with the same cavalier attitude they demonstrate towards those that don’t.

Measurement of knowledge—Indeed the grade should reflect a student’s knowledge but to be honest I hate that it doesn’t reflect effort and applied skills. Look at it this way, if one had all the knowledge in the world but was unable to apply it would you hire that person or one that had the knowledge of how to find the answers and then apply them? This is in essence what we should be teaching and that brings me right to

Bogus standards—— What I look for isn’t necessarily someone with all the answers, to the contrary I seek out people that know how to find the answers and apply them. Multiple guess tests don’t measure that ability. Therefor any test that presumes to measure a student’s ability without affording them the opportunity to demonstrate they can find the answers is a bogus measurement of their ability. So to answer your question

Use instead—- a combination of materials rather than a single text when teaching, testing partially open book and partially standard testing procedures. Challenge the student to find the answers rather than depend on route memorization. Ask questions they must look up answers for.

Does any of this make sense?

By JustMe

August 29, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

Educatorx3….

What you preach can never be put into practice. Why? Here is an example:

You assign a homework set. You give a due date of a week from now. You need to review the homework with the class before the test. Little Johnny doesn’t turn in his homework on the due date. What do you do? Do you move the test date and continue moving the test date back because you cannot review the homework because little Johnny won’t turn it in?

In real life, you would NEVER even get through with a small percentage of the GPS standards, all the while waiting for little Johnny to turn in his work or even waiting for little Johnny to continue to re-do his work until he gets it right.

So, I imagine your answer would be to continue with new material? That is no answer. Little Johnny then would not do the work for the new material either. And, you are potentially confusing the students that have done their work and are ready for the test by introducing new content that is planned for the next text.

What a mess you are making!

Your ideas are not practical. And, they are teaching little Johnny nothing about real world things such as deadlines.

My students have deadlines for their work. They know that I am serious about it and I have penalities for late work. And, I only accept late work one day after the due date. After that, we (the class) must move on to new material. And, if the class turns in their work, I can then see if they understand the material so that I might even have time to review it if need be.

Your method just doesn’t work.

I would love to see some comparison of standardized test scores (EOCT for example) between my class and yours. I would bet my bottom dollar that my class average would be much higher than yours!

By JustMe

August 29, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

jim d,

I would go in another direction. I challenege students to perform problem solving, and not to simply look up answers. My students must show mastery of content through yes, knowing facts, but then also using those facts to solve problems in a given situation. Only then will they “own” the knowledge. Memorizing will be forgotten rather quickly.

By jim d

August 29, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this

Justme,

Granted problem solving is a great tool. But keep in mind the greatest problems need not be solved from memory, other than knowing where one must go to get the answers.

Let me ask; How many CPA’s do you know that have all the answers without knowing where to find them?

Personally I aquired the knowledge very early on in my career that the only thing I really needed to know was where to find the answers. I have applied that type of knowledge since 1969 when this business was formed and I’m still here.

Not too bad for a HS. Grad.

By JustMe

August 29, 2006 01:32 PM | Link to this

jim d -

There is no doubt that some careers can be made from “looking up” material. But that does not apply to all careers.

However, solving problems not only applies to some careers but also to life. How much carpet do you purchase when the room is not a perfect shape? This is a problem that must be solved and cannot be “looked up.” Yes, you must know basic math formulas (area of a square, for example) and can look them up, but that alone will not solve the problem.

Congrats to you for your success. However, keep in mind that there is a large diversity that public education must address.

By jim d

August 29, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

I don’t disagree, simply believe that knowing where and how to find answers is also a valuable tool that should be taught in our schools.One that, unfortunately, is often overlooked.

Personally I deal with building codes from a lot of different regions. Knowing where to go and what to look for and then applying what I find is one of the most valuable tools I have at my disposal. I really wouldn’t want to clutter my mind with these always changing code requirements.

By Educatorx3

August 29, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this

Great discussion….

JustMe - in reference to your comment to Shannon: what makes you think this NBCT was fired from the DOE? I don’t see any indication of that. Having been there myself, I can assure you there are many reasons to get out of the DOE! The folks I know who are leaving are doing it of their own choosing, can’t we assume this teacher is doing the same?

A few other misconceptions - most because I did not make myself clear on a couple of things. jim d and JustME….you can count on the fact that I use authentic assessment and application far more than any multiple choice test. When I used the term “content knowledge,” I was refering to a true understanding of content that is demonstrated through application. (I failed to make that clear!) I would never take a passing test grade to mean mastery - or even understanding.

I beg to difer about my ideas not being put in practice. I do indeed use these practices in my classroom with great success. I do not count on homework as assessment of understanding of concepts. I use daily, formative assessments and build my instruction around these results. I can tell you that because my expectations are high, I rarely have a student who does not complete homework. You assumed that because I have these policies in place that they are used daily - absolutely not - but I do believe that it takes some students longer to “get it” than others…and my job is to see that as many of them “get it” as possible. If that requires that some students take longer to do an assignment, then so be it. You can also bet that I know my students well enough to know who needs the time and who is simply taking advantage…and that won’t happen but once!

JustMe..I think it is sad that you assume my standardized test scores won’t be as high as yours because we teach differently. I am sure your scores are high - as are mine - and it is perfectly ok that we don’t get to the end in the same way. I would hope that as two professionals we might see some value in what the other does instead of condemning the process without considering that it might work for some.

And, since I see the GPS as standards that are to be met by the end of the year and not a curriculum that has to be followed in a particular sequence, I often incorporate as many as 12 different standards (or at least a portion of the elements associated with 12 standards) into a unit plan.

Jim D - you made reference to using more than one text for the curriculum - I don’t use the text to determine what I teach. I know of no textbooks that follow the GPS. The textbook should always be a reference tool - one of many. I hope most teachers use a variety of materials rather than a text. I am with you, we must teach students how to find information rather than spoon feeding it to them.

Bottom line…there are lots of different ways to reaching the same end.

By jim d

August 29, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this

X3,

Indeed this has been an excellent discussion

EOCT’s are the measure of mastery in a subject are they not? (That being a rhetorical question.)

Since that is the case, a student only needs to meet the minimum requirements on the EOCT to pass your course regardless as to if you feel the student has demonstrated sufficient “content knowledge,” to have in your opinion “got it”.

Furthermore since most of the EOCT’s are multiple guess tests, or at least in part are, a student that you feel did not “get it” still moves on if they guess even partially correct.

Since you have admitted you “never take a passing test grade to mean mastery - or even understanding” how does it make you feel as a professional educator when the EOCT passes a student you know shouldn’t move on? And what do you do about it?

I know the answers to those questions already and sympathize with your plight

Bottom line, you really have no say.

By Educatorx3

August 29, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

Jim D, It is so true…we teach in assessment classes at the university level that assessment should never be a one-shot deal, but what are we expected to do…give a one-shot deal. With an EOCT, it is possible to pass the test and not pass the course. But, I can’t actually say that I have seen that happen.

This is my philosophy…Teachers should teach to much higher standards than what are required to pass the test. This way those students from the bottom of the class are pulled a bit closer to the mark while the brightest and the best are still challenged. With higher expectations, the EOCT should be easy. Difficult to do? By all means. But it can be done.

By jim d

August 29, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

Well one question then.

Why not just give the students an opportunity to test out at the beginning of the year and recieve credit if they pass the test?

By Laf

August 29, 2006 06:41 PM | Link to this

By all means enforce those tough standards with all those college prep students but just remember the student in the corner with the math learning disability who literally hates math and math teachers.

By shannon

August 29, 2006 08:15 PM | Link to this

BTW, my professor at my college that was a DOE employee, is a N’tl Board Certified teacher (and many more certifications) left her job at the DOE (not fired), just like the two new Hall Co BOE employees, just like some other top directors and if you could find out the true structure at the GA DOE, you’d be shocked. Our Governor has a lot of work to do to get our GA DOE back on track - hopefully, it will begin with a new school superintendent and Governor. It’s a shame that our currect superintendent is not even certified to be a principal, yet can lead the state. However, maybe it’s time we had a business approach, instead of a limited education experience approach, to run the state and the Democratic may be our ticket. But, that’s for another blog.

By Educatorx3

August 29, 2006 08:25 PM | Link to this

Jim D, To give the test as a pass out option would assume that the minimum is all that is taught. I hope that is not true!

By jim d

August 30, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

X3,

Not really it is merely assuming the minimum is the standard.

Seriously though, if we are looking to measure improvement, why aren’t we testing as they enter a class as well as when they exit? Certainly measuring a student against themself rather than an entire class would be a more accurate method of measuring improvement.

By EducatorX3

August 30, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this

jim d, You have asked my favorite question! I had a class once with a student who was coming from the business world into education - at the PhD level…go figure, but I digress…She assumed that pre test/post test information was how our schools were graded. Wouldn’t that be lovely?

By jim d

August 30, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

X3

Indeed a true measurement of learning.

I often wonder who the idiot was that decided comparing this years class with last years class was anywhere near an accurate measure.

Ahh, but then I recall who’s idea NCLB was and that it was modeled after the program in Texas. It then becomes crystal clear who that IDIOT was.

By Lee

August 31, 2006 08:44 AM | Link to this

You lost me the moment I read the text was “Seven Habits….”.

Anyway, I do agree that students should get some type of primer course, but it should be done in the 7th or 8th grade. It should cover things like, how to take notes, how to write a research paper, time management skills, etc.

My daughter’s private school had a class like the one I described above. It was a great help, IMHO.