Get Schooled

By jim d

August 21, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this

So sorry Patti,

But this is the exact type of thinking that has us where we find ourselves with NCLB.

Comparing last years eighth graders with this years eighth graders on a single test really does not demonstrate improvement. All this proves is that this years eighth grade was better prepared for a single test.

By MMM

August 21, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this

Love it! It is so obvious that it had to come from someone not educated to be an educator.

Yes, I know we will have bloggers that think the kids should be “intrinsicly motivated”. I do not offer my kids money for reading, because I don’t want them reading only for money. But I’m a middle-class educated parent with every expectation that my kids will succeed in life—and they read because they have been read to as children.

Let’s get real and deal with the world and expectations at actually exist out there.

There is state money for “pay for preformance” for teachers and principals. I wonder if we would get a better “rate of return” on test score improvement if we gave it directly to the low-income kids at the failing AYP schools based on individual improvement rather than trying to insentivise(is that a word?) principals to switch schools.

By Rita

August 21, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

jim d, Well said!

By SNY

August 21, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this

I like any program that motivates kids to learn. Should it matter what the motivation is? No, just motivate them. Kids in the poorer sections of town and in the failing schools need money. Their families need money to eat, to buy gas to get to work and all sorts of other reasons. Show a child that their actions have meaning and you have a child that will work wonders for you. It has been proven time and time again. Some kids don’t understand that “A”s now mean money later. All they understand is that they need money now. They need to eat today, not next year after they have graduated. Just like with discipline, make the reaction swift and immediate. They do something wrong today, they are punished today. They pass a state test today, when the tests are graded, they get rewarded that day. Slowly but surely, most of these kids will learn how important good grades are now and will work for them in the future. If we just stop underestimating these children, we would get much farther in life.

By Janine

August 21, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

I have thought about this issue for years. As a middle school teacher I was horrified when students arrived from elementary school asking, “What are you going to give us if we do our homework [or get this paper signed, or do well on this test}]I was convinced that the INSTANT GRATIFICATION system, the tangible reward system, that begins in Kindergarten with Skittles, was/is not the best way…not even a good way to motivate. We would woefully complain….”what’s going to happen when the rewards are delayed? in high school there won’t be a toy chest for those who do what they are suppose to do…and certainly not in college….AND what about in the work force? However,I actually think that I agree with MMM. Money is usually not necessary to motivate the children of middle class, educated parents, but it may be the key to motivation for those children who are not motivated by a pat on the back…or a “good job, Johnny”.

By jim d

August 21, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this

MMM,

Not no but he!! no.

Paying kids for learning is just another dumb idea to spend mo money on another educational fad. You want to get real? The reality is that those that value an education get their returns in knowledge.

By jim d

August 21, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this

Well it certainly would be a catalyst to motivate cheating. Would it improve education? I doubt it

By Dragonlady

August 21, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this

If you start giving kids money for doing well on a test, you get into that whole concept of some kids doing better than others because they had a “certain” teacher or because they are just smarter or come from a home environment that values education. This is a bad idea because I don’t believe it can be defended. It opens a whole can of worms that I would rather not see opened. I have two children this year who have learning disabilities. One is severely ADD and the other is dyslexic. They are doing the very best they can in a really challenging class. So they don’t get the money when they are trying probably harder than the other kids around them for whom learning comes much more easily? The fact is that we are dealing with children of varying abilities—they are not equal in any real academic sense of the word. Money as a reward would do a lot of damage. I understand that we live in a materialistic society, and heaven knows it is difficult, if not downright impossible, to motivate some students to want to learn. But I don’t think money is the way. But then if I cared about making a lot of money, I would never have been a teacher!

By Laf

August 21, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

By jim d

August 21, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this

Yep, I can see it now.

Kid earns all A’s so he’s rewarded with cash that crack head mom or dad take. Kid can’t show improvement over that so he get’s no more cash, mom and dad beat the kid within an inch of his life for doing so well.

Now there’s a life lesson.

By V for Vendetta

August 21, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this

Wow, and we wonder why kids just dont want to learn anymore. Shocking! Is it really so hard to just make them understand that without an education, they will be shoveling sh*t for a sanitation company sometime in the near future? I just knew everyone missed me :-)

By jim d

August 21, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this

Welcome back V

By SNY

August 21, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

Given - Some kids really need help being motivated to learn. Some kids don’t.

Question - How is a kid, whose parents don’t value education suppose to learn the value of education? Just because a teacher tells them that it is important doesn’t mean that they are going to believe them right off the bat. We are punishing the kids for not valuing education when it is the adults that we should be kicking in the butt. (I wanted to say another word but I can’t on here.) You only know what your parents teach you until you go to school, then you try your best to understand the different culture that school provides.

For all of you middle-class suburbanites, try to put yourself in these kids shoes for a minute. Think about how life would be for you if you were hungry every morning and couldn’t concentrate because your stomach was louder than the teacher talking. Then think about how difficult it would be to walk past gang members, who are trying to recruit you, and prostitutes and pimps who are also trying to recruit you. Is it still so easy to think about school and where a good education will take you? It is easy to talk about other people, but try to walk in their shoes for 1 hour, not even a whole day. I say that if money motivates these kids, start slow, just start somewhere.

By jim d

August 21, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this

How about We start by ridding the streets of gang members, prostitutes and pimps?

As for the hunger thing, don’t attempt to play that card. Taxpayers are already providing free breakfasts at many schools and lunches at all of them for kids that are hungry.

By EW

August 21, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this

This year I’m in a new school - considered inner city with a 98 percent free lunch population. Here’s what Ive learned thus far. I went in with high expectations and they have responded wonderfully. I went with the understanding of how I used to be when I was in middle school, as adults we tend to forget of how we used to be handfuls ourselves or even that we made mistakes, and lastly I went in treating each and every child as if I would want someone to treat my own. I have had no issues, granted this is the second week, however we have started great and we get along well with each other. I believe they understand that I will be fair, and all I expect is greatness from them.

I put on each of thier desk, that I expect great things from them and that I was honored to teach them, that I could have taught anywhere, however I chose them. I truly feel that way, money is only a temporary fix to their much needed metal, social and economical issues. They need to think someone cares and sometimes caring is discipline and expectations, instant gratification is just that instant, then what happens when it wears off? The let down.

By lynn d

August 21, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

Some systems are feeding every kid breakfast for free, even if they don’t qualify for free meals, because they want to make sure everyone eats breakfast!

When my mom taught 40 years ago in inner city schools (they had them back then too), they use to pay parents to come to PTA meetings and parent-teacher conferences.

Yes, it worked. Parents almost always attended.

By SNY

August 21, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

Jim D.,

Not all of the hungry kids are eating. Please don’t think that they are. If your family makes 1 dollar more than the government allows then you don’t receive free breakfast and there are alot of kids that don’t eat in the morning.

By MMM

August 21, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this

Jim d, I usually agree with you, and the cheating part is a good point that we would have to guarded against…

But we must try SOMETHING meaningful for these kids and this puts both the reward and punishment where the true responsibilty lies—with the person who must make the effort to learn. It is a competition—-do you think it is wrong to give tropies to the winners of a track meet? What is a merit scholarship to college if not money for prior learning (that just comes in bigger chunks for those with the self-dicipline to make a sustained effort.) Like it or not, Americans have a culture that seeks to measure what it values, and give financial reward based on merit or winning. The size of the rewards given in this program are tiny compared with the costs of hiring teachers for summer remediation.

I’m not suggesting it should be used in the more affluent areas—-but please let’s not rule it out just because in an “ideal world” everyone should value education for it’s own sake.

By jim d

August 21, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

You haven’t learned from watching the dismal failure of rewards and consequence brought about from NCLB that money just isn’t going to fix education?

Foxworthy does a bit “ya just can’t fix stupid” that I think applies here. If someone is so stupid as to not value an education, we can’t fix it with any amount of money.

By EW

August 21, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

I agree we should try something, however cash isnt it - who becomes responsible when they use the cash for something inappropriate? Or more important liable?

By jim d

August 21, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this

SNY,

That threshold was raised to $30,000 dollars this year.

Not sure if you were aware of that.

By jim d

August 21, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this

Lynn,

I never cease to be amazed at what some people will do for their fix.

By Lisa B.

August 21, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this

Welcome by V!

I agree with Jim D. and V. People get paid for jobs. People get paid nothing for keeping themselves in shape at the gym, or eating right to preserve good health. Learning is exercise for the brain, for the good of the person doing the learning. I realize that educated, healthy people are often the more productive citizens, but one isn’t paid for preparation to be productive. Sometimes we are expected to just do what’s best without getting paid for it.

By Nel

August 21, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this

How about NO incentives now but expose them to the incentives the will achieve when they get an education and get a job. This is just a bribe and how much do you give, do you give more with each grade, and when you decide to stop, do you then send them back to the dealers for that easy money? You people are so quick to resort to the lowest common denominator. I know somebody will say I’m targeting black kids with this comment, but please, why do some of you accept that black kids not in middle-class homes, need to be paid to perform. Be more creative for goodness sake. What a cop out. Sounds like those gun buy-back programs.

By Janine

August 21, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this

Lynn, SNY, et al.. Back in “the day”…I went to school with the poorest of the poor, and my family was by no means affluent. None of us were ever paid to learn anything in school, yet almost everyone tried and everyone was respectful. It took some students 5 minutes to do homework…and others an hour or two to do the same homework…but everybody did it or at least tried. I think it’s time to stop using being “poor” as an excuse and/or reason for the ills in education and our country as a whole.

By Nel

August 21, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this

This article by Juan Williams in today’s Washington Post seems to relate well to this topic and is well worth reading. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/20/AR2006082000527.html

You pay kids for chores you don’t pay them to pay attention to their education. Did paying the parents to attend PTA make them participate in the school and their children’s education? This is a very slippery slope.

By jim d

August 21, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this

I agree Nel,

What chaps me is that some believe we must bribe these kids to peak their interest to learn.

Personally, I’ve worked a couple of years very closely with a young man, with 2 sipplings, who was raised by a single mom that worked to support them. Sure they qualified for assistance and got it. But income level never adversly affected his desire to learn. This young man earned acculades for his abilities in robototics, took all AP classes and then turned down a full ride at a couple of schools,hope scholarship to stay in state, choosing to work to earn money to attend UNC Charlotte.

Today is his first day of classes and I am confident he will succeed.

By Nel

August 21, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this

Janine: I can’t agree with you more. It’s not poverty the is the problem but lack of motivation and it doesn’t help that there are people out there that push the “entitlement” agenda. My school has children from refugee homes for whom English is not the first language. I makes my heart glad to see how many of these children make honor roll every semestser. These are the children the many people would assume would pull down a school’s scores. It all depends on what the administration, faculty AND parents are willing to accept.

By jim d

August 21, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this

My bad, UNC Greensboro.

By SNY

August 21, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this

Janine,

Please don’t get me wrong, I am not using being poor as a reason to go out and act a fool in life. What I am saying is that we expect kids to understand how important school is when no one has taught them how important school is. I have a friend who went to college and can’t get a good job to save his life. He is working at Firestone making $12.00 an hour trying to support 3 kids on his own. He thought that he knew the value of an education. But do any of us really know?

Jim D.,

My friend isn’t making $30,000 and the schools told him that his kids didn’t qualify for free lunch but they did for reduced. Are you sure about your figures and do I need to send him back up to the schools?

I also do not think that only poor kids do not do their work and need incentives. I know several kids in my neighborhood who could care less about school and all of their parents went to college. I don’t know what the answer is but I do know that if we don’t get their attention with a bolt, we will lose it quickly. Maybe it shouldn’t be that way but the reality is that it is this way. I’LL SAY IT AGAIN AND AGAIN - NOT ALL KIDS UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF AN EDUCATION. Going to school means nothing to some kids because they know that their parents went to school, even graduated with a diploma but can’t feed their children. In a household like that, where is the incentive to stay in school.

Think of it from their point of view, “My momma went to school and she can’t find a good job. She got her high school diploma and she is still working two jobs to support us. What’s the difference if I finish school or not? I’ll just work two jobs like momma does.” Sounds silly to some of you, but it hits home for others of you doesn’t it. I know because my sister felt that way. I, on the other hand, took a different route. I joined the military and made them pay for college. I knew that my mother, as wonderful as she is, couln’t afford to pay the rent most months let alone college. So, I did what I had to do. Everyone isn’t that strong. I can’t expect other people to do what I did just because it worked for me. I can mentor them, I can beg them but I can’t make them. Plus, whose to say that it would even work for them the same way it did for me?

Remember, just because you know that an education is important doesn’t mean that everyone knows that. That concept has to be learned just like everything else in life.

By jim d

August 21, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this

SNY,

FYI, I just looked it up, 2006 income qualifications for f/r lunch. If I’m reading this right.

A family of 3 can earn up to $591 a week and qualify for reduced lunches.

Or $415 a week for free lunches.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/cnd/Governance/notices/iegs/IEG06-07.pdf

So there is absolutely no reason a child should be going hungry at school.

By Gwinnett Teacher

August 21, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this

SNY - nobody is hungry! I may be the hungriest one in the room because I get a late start and rush out without having my Eggo!

Perhaps if mom or dad or “Uncle for the week” wouldn’t make sure that the kids didn’t have every latest pair of Jordans and the best cell phone out - they could afford to pay for their kid’ own food!

Don’t believe for one minute that motivation or test scores or value of education is in any way linked to hunger!

By Nel

August 21, 2006 04:04 PM | Link to this

Jim d: All this they are so poor is such a cop out. Kids perform up/down to the standards that are expected of them. Children come here from p*ss poor countries and outperform native-born. When you have to walk to school barefoot, not indoor plumbing, barely any food, and if you are lucky you get a rudimentary education, when you come here, this is paradise and you go for it. It makes me soooo mad when I hear this type of we owe them something garbage.

By MMM

August 21, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

I didn’t mean to say that I think money should be given across the board for any effort…

But I don’t want to see us rule out something that clearly motivated individual children in the case cited in the editorial.

It may well be that the attention/involvement and concern expressed by the folks that started the program is the real motivator.

I don’t buy the idea that the huge increase from the year before to this year in numbers that pass the state test is not meaningful because it wasn’t the same kids and this group was somehow better.

Find some community groups and go do this at McNair. It may be a tempoary spark, and it may only spark some children. If it doesn’t work, try something else. But don’t rule it out because you think every child should be motivated by the ideals that worked for you.

By jim d

August 21, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

SNY, according to the chart on page 3 it would appear if your friend makes more than 26k but less than 37k he would fall inot the reduced price category.

By jim d

August 21, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

Indeed, let’s try it like we have NCLB.

Have you ever tried to get rid of an entitlement program? It’s next to impossible.

By MMM

August 21, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

Nel,

No we don’t “owe” them this. But under NCLB the schools and teachers are penalized if the kids don’t perform.

As an entirely practical matter, this kind of money insentive may simply be more cost effective in failing schools than paying the additional salaries and gas money for transfers or summer school for unmotivated kids. It sparks competition in the direction that the authorities need movement in what appears to be a cost effective manner and places positive consequences on the responsible party—-should make Political Conservatives proud!

By MMM

August 21, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

Let private groups fund it, as they did in the case cited, then they can decide if it is effective and withdraw it.

By MannyT

August 21, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

If you want to use financial incentives, why not make them educationally appropriate?

You do well in science, you get an all expense paid trip to NASA in Huntsville or Cape Kennedy.

You do well in English, you get your own set of books for a personal library.

I think its fine to give something that supports the idea that there is educational value in learning. Making money off education is a very different skill. They don’t teach it in schools, so why spend money pretending that it’s true. If they want to win some cash, have them put up some cash and pick stocks.

By MMM

August 21, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this

Public education is the biggest entitlement program. NCLB, whatever its flaws (and they are large) at least requires some accountablity for something measured rather than just accepting assurances from teachers and administators who use our tax money and tell us that “everything is fine”—just let us do whatever we want with your children for 12 years.

By jim d

August 21, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this

Then let’s look at the cost of a program of this nature.

2005 census estimates population of the US at 296,410,404

25% are under the age of 18 so we have roughly 74,102,601 people under the age of 18

with 6.8% of the population estimated at being under the age of 5 we would have 20,155,907 under 5 not in school

leaving us with an estimated 53,946,694 students in grades k-12

Now how much money you going to have to fork over to motivate these kids? $100 do it?

Do the math then tell me where you are going to find the 5.4 BILLION dollars every year to fund the program

Stats.—- http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

By jim d

August 21, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

Manny,

We are already providing incentives for kids to try to do well. it’s called the HOPE SCHOLARSHIP. If they won’t bite on that one they won’t hit on anything.

By MMM

August 21, 2006 05:24 PM | Link to this

Jim d

As I posted above. Let private groups fund it, as they did in the case cited, then they can decide if it is effective and withdraw it.

One of our big problems is that we are so wedded to the concept of equity that we do the kind of calculation that you just did so we can say no and it relieves us of feeling any moral responsibiity to figure out and target funds in a cost effective manner. Private entities can offer and withhold funding based on whatever criteria they choose.

Throw out all non title1 schools. Only do it for one grade where $25-$150 seems huge to the kids. (6th maybe). Only do it for the particular catagory of kids who have caused their school to flunk AYP and for the paticular area the school struggles with. The money is only going to go to the top 10 or 20 kids (manybe 15% of those competing) Make it contingent on the local business commuity coming in to give the kids pep talks.

Let the Gate Foundation put $5 million into something similar to this and see whether it leverages more improvement than the “small schools” inititive that they have pored a large amount of funds into.

By Big Momma

August 21, 2006 05:32 PM | Link to this

People, read the entire piece! He is not paying the kids to attend school. His lawfirm is awarding prizes to the highest achievers. It’s more like a competion. It makes the kids care how well they do. Only the top 16 students get a prize. Of course that leads me to wonder how long these rewards will work for the students that don’t do well.

Kids in middle school can delay gratification for only so long. School is a child’s job—or so it should be. Parents and upperclass high school students are the ones who know what it means to get a HOPE scholarship. Children in eighth and ninth grades need some kind of motivation. For some a letter grade is enough, because the parents gloat over high grades. My children told me that some parents DO use monetary incentives. In our house, we just use lots of praise and support.

I think the answer is in the parents’ attitudes. Unless we can somehow “force” all parents to encourage achievement in nonpunitive ways and show an appreciation for education, there will be children that do not value education. Children learn what they live.

By Lisa B.

August 21, 2006 05:38 PM | Link to this

Jim D, You are dead on correct! The HOPE Scholarship is a huge financial reward for good grade.

By Lisa B.

August 21, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this

Oops. I meant to say “good grades.” I can’t type today.

By Big Momma

August 21, 2006 05:46 PM | Link to this

Yes, Hope is a big finacial reward for good grades, but the point is that one has to “graduate” to get it. Fourteen-year-old algebra students don’t even feel close to graduation.

By SET

August 21, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

Whatever works is fine with me. The more experiments we try the more I like it.

My classmates and I had a combination of rewards and punishments on grades. My parents did pay for A’s. I don’t remember a payoff for B’s. Cs got you grounded, no driving the car, etc. A “D” resulted in convening the Star Chamber and other things so terrible I don’t remember it ever happening to me. They paid attention to a plus or minus on the grade also.

So this is all history repeating to me.

By Lisa B.

August 21, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

As always SET, I appreciate your point of view. Your comments got me thinking, and I agree that some experimentation may be in order here. Way too many kids are failing in our society.

By helpinghand

August 21, 2006 06:48 PM | Link to this

“”Fourteen-year-old algebra students don’t even feel close to graduation.”“”

My 6th grader from a single parent family and already knows where she wants to go to college even had me order a sweatshirt which got alot of glares last year. Even if the college changes she has her eye on the big prize so I really don’t buy the statement that kids need money for motivation. If you don’t want to learn and don’t have the mental capacity to understand where an education can take you then nothing is going to help.

By luvs2teach

August 21, 2006 06:51 PM | Link to this

I’m neither for this nor against it (how’s that for sitting on the fence?) until there is more research done - and research is being done. I know Harvard economist Roland Fryer was planning on researching this very subject.

For all of you out there touting the “value of education” and “intrinsic motivation” your required reading this week includes Dr. Ruby Payne’s work on understanding the framework of poverty.

People from poverty think differently - they have hidden rules of survival and culture and don’t often understand the middle class rules. People are more valuable than things. Things are more valuable than intangibles like education - that’s why the kid has an iPod but no notebook. Time is fluid, not linear. These things make surviving in the middle class world of school difficult if not impossible.

This isn’t a black/white issue either. These trends are found in poor white areas as well as poor black areas.

People who come from other country may be poor financially by American standards, but are rich in other areas including the drive to succeed.

Someone the other day asked the rhetorical question, “What’s so great about middle class values?”

Well, nothing really, except that most social structures in our country are built on those same values - if you don’t get them, then you don’t do well.

By jim d

August 22, 2006 08:23 AM | Link to this

For all you fine folks that feel we must cater to children’s demands for instant gratification there is an Interesting blog going on over at momania.

http://www.ajc.com/health/content/shared-blogs/ajc/parenting/entries/2006/08/20/post_2.html

By Janine

August 22, 2006 08:44 AM | Link to this

——Re: luvtoteach. I am not getting the distinction between Payne’s “framework of poverty” in the US versus the “framework of poverty” in other countries. If it’s present here, why not elsewhere? Especially in countries that do not provide food stamps, Medicaid, etc…I have difficulty understanding how/why my Asian/Indian/MiddleEastern/ Somalian/Ethiopian students who live in poverty here…and in abject poverty unknown to AMericans in their own countries, do hot fit into this “framework”. What keeps AMerican students living in poverty from being rich in a drive to succeed? Payne’s “framework” theory/assertion falls apart for me here and in many, many, cases of American students who do have that drive and do succeed.

By jim d

August 22, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this

Janine,

The real issue here is conditioning. We as a society have caved in to the pressure to offer instant gratification for just about any accomplishment. WE are the enemy—WE have conditioned our children to expect this type of reward system.

And WE must be the ones that bring them back to reality. Offering pay for learning will just continue the trend of expected instant gratification.

My guess is that many of the students from 3rd world coutries that end up in our schools have been conditioned to look at the big picture, foregoing, or possibly not understanding, the instant concept.

By Janine

August 22, 2006 09:20 AM | Link to this

….jim d I think you are absolutely right, and I mentioned something similar yesterday. It has nothing at all to do with poverty. I am with John Rosemond in his analysis that somewhere in the 60’s,70’s, and after, the psycho-babble got us off track in child rearing and we have not yet recovered.

By jim d

August 22, 2006 09:25 AM | Link to this

The real dangers of providing instant gratification is that in a society where everyone is continually satisfied, the growth of an egocentric world-view is all but guaranteed.

Just look at how easily things that were wild utopian fantasies or fabulous luxuries a few decades ago have become “rights” in contemporary American society.

In a society where instant gratification is the norm, any obstruction of the will, however trivial, will be seen as a direct personal assault.

By jim d

August 22, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this

You know, as I ponder this question it occurs to me that our dependancy on instant gratification may be one of the root causes of many of the problems we have in our schools. Including but not limited to the number of ever escalating violent incidents. Might it even be responsible for a number of road rage incidents we see every day?

This causes me to wonder if providing these type of rewards to a select few would cause those that do not recieve them to retaliate against those that do?

Hmmm,

By sobegape

August 22, 2006 09:54 AM | Link to this

Janine…good point! I think you may have answered your own query though. Children from other countries know that they DO NOT have that safety net that federal programs in the US provide,therefore they try harder to succeed on their own. It goes back also to the comment made earlier about entitlement.

By jim d

August 22, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this

MMM,

My calculations were not done to justify my opinion that we should not pay students for learning.

No my friend, it was done to show the cost of such a program. Anytime we start talking of spending billions of dollars we must realistically consider where those funds will be coming from or we will find ourselves saddled with yet another un-funded federal mandate.

By SET

August 22, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this

Sobegate: There is commentary that the US Social Security scheme destroys incentives to raise children well. Since workers often think that they can manage on Social Security they spend less thought and energy (in modern times) raising productive children.

Another reason why social security is a mistake… Perhaps this partially explains the cavilier attitude regarding parenting seen in the last 50 years compared with previously.

By Janine

August 22, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this

At the risk of repeating my yesterday’s post…Students arrived in my classes from elementary schools wanting to know what I was going to give them if they do their assignment. When I was teaching in elementary school I cringed to see some kindergarten teachers using Skittles , which began the neverending cycle of tangible, instant rewards. Yet other teachers did not use this tangible “instant gratification’ strategy and got quite good cooperation from the little ones…

By jim d

August 22, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

Janine,

I do believe you are correct that students from other countries haven’t accepted the safety nets we offer in this country. I think this is most prevalent in newcomers though. I know several second-generation kids that have fallen into the trap.

Those that have had to worry about their next meal have been accustomed to saving for tomorrow so they would be able to eat. Much like our parents and grandparents that survived the depression years in this country still hoard food and money for the future. This unfortunately is a lesson neither our children’s generation nor we have been able to learn from the past.

By sobegape

August 22, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this

off subject: What person in their right mind gives a bunch of 5 year olds sugar?!?!? That sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen.

By SET

August 22, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

Jim D:

I’ve experience with the depression generation - commonly their experiences have left them too economically conservative to the point they are (very) damaged goods. They cannot change with the times. In many cases this group loses a lot of money - or even gets themselves killed - by hoarding cash, by not diversifying, by putting all their eggs in one basket, etc.

The most nimble group I’ve worked with are WWII German Jewish immmigrants to the US. Despite going through hard times earlier they seem to keep up with the times and not miss a financial trick. Of course, they are the ones whose families were smart enough to see what was coming and escape - so their decendants tend to be more nimble also. The original immigrants seem to have been quite careful in raising their children - and even the grandchildren’s generation reflects this. Even today this group are survivors.

By Janine

August 22, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

…..sobegape There was a science teacher in my middle school who would do 10 minute drills at the beginning of the period. The students got ONE M&M every time they answered a question correctly during the drill. I remember her mentioning that the students would jump, and yell…all excited. She said that those kids would kill for ONE M&M ! Of course, it probably had more to do with winning the M&M than anything else. I guess it could have been a safety pin…anything tangible and immediate.

By Joy of Teaching

August 22, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this

Janine…should I even mention that I have kids who battle for the grand prize of….drum roll here…a PAPER CLIP.

It’s not the prize…it’s bragging rights for most kids.

By catlady

August 22, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this

Private firms can offer whatever they want, but public money for this should be off-limits. I suspect “gains” are too short-term for much real effect.

By jim d

August 22, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this

Private firms CAN DO THIS NOW.

Are they?

By catlady

August 22, 2006 07:33 PM | Link to this

I have read of a few, sporadic attempts. Seems like those with the longest-term effects targeted mentoring and other “teaching” kinds of actions to change behaviors and mindsets. There is a book by a conservative educator called “How the Poor Get to College” that I would recommend reading. Also, one called “Promises I can Keep” about women who start a family without marriage. Both seem to me germane to this subject.

By luvs2teach

August 22, 2006 07:51 PM | Link to this

Janine - I’m not talking about “poor people” - I am talking about “generational poverty” where there is no connection with American ideals or middle class values. For many, this is a direct result of Johnson’s “Great Society” and the entitlement mentality that resulted. Education is not valued in these familes - it has nothing to do with the problems that John Rosemond (who I agree with a great deal) talks about. Children from these families risk being ostrasized for trying to better themselves and learn.

It’s very complex, and I am not doing it justice here. However, a main reason that we don’t see similar trends in many of our poor immigrants is that they come here for an education that is unavailable to them in their native country. While American children may be discouraged to achieve, many foreign born cultures expect their children to achieve.

The way I read it , it’s not some touchy-feely, let’s boost their self-esteem work. It gave me an understanding for this mind-set that really helped me deal with things in my class (and I don’t ever give out skittles or any other nonsense - learning is its own reward - but some kids haven’t learned that yet).

As far as poor kids in other countries (not immigrants to the US) I would imagine that, since her research is here in the US, it may or may not apply.

Her work is not without its critics, and I’ll admit that. However, I have read other work that has discovered similar trends - particularly the difference between a print or verbal culture and a non-verbal one. SET’s comments on cultural filters fit right into this concept.

I still recommend that you research it - I think you’ll find it enlightening.

By MMM

August 23, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

Catlady and Jim D. I agree with you both that federal money should be off limits for this. I suspect that it is mostly the underlying attention that would be necessary to make long term changes—-that consistant steady reminding that something distant is possible is exactly the kind of “middle class” value that has never been available to some of these kids in generational poverty.

The money one time may well be nothing more than a 2”x4” to hit them up the side of the head to get their attention. But WE DO NEED THEIR ATTENTION.

Luvs2teach is right on about the immigrants and most refugees, even thought they are financial poor, have families that show repect for education. With just a little language support, the kids are motivated to behave and do quite will. But, because the families are generally resettled into low cost housing (read dangerous slum appartments) the kids are general in school side by side with only the poorest American kids that have the values and viewpoint of multi-generational poverty. These kids think that adopting these values are what then need to do to become American—-and as the kids grow fluent in English they often reject the values of their parents and can gain control of the power within the family because they are the translator who speaks for the adults who can’t speak for themselves.

It is tragic to watch—but an extremely common pattern. I have heard many adult African refugees who are stuck in these appartment complexes speak with fear and contempt of the American Blacks living around them. And I know some kids who have been beaten up, and the car we gave to an Afgani family was tourch in front of their appartment, etc.

By MMM

August 24, 2006 11:10 AM | Link to this

Please forgive the typo’s in the earlier post. I an engineer by training, and we have a reputation for being awful speller.

By cash til payday

August 27, 2006 05:40 PM | Link to this

cash til payday cash til payday